M.E.: Oh, P thinks I'm crazy, like he knows what's up. He mentioned "serial killer." You're not concerned? I'm sort of concerned. Ha ha.
Friend: A little concerned, but what can you do
M.E.: So funny, because I have been completely normal around him. It's really very perceptive of him. He said, "When i first met you, I thought that you were really directionless. Now I realize it is the opposite, you plan everything. You're like a serial killer." I said, "P, how would you even know anything about me?" He said, "I have you 70% figured out. I learn more from what you don't say than what you do say. When you talk i just hear 'bla bla bla.' I feel like anything you say is more misdirection than anything else. Instead I choose to focus on your body language and other tells."
Friend: Your general demeanor does suggest subterfuge
M.E.: Ha, how?
Friend: in lots of ways
M.E.: Oh, he has always been creeped out by my super calm.
Friend: You tell people about a lot of your scheming. Your calculations that other people (i) never tell other people, (ii) never tell themselves, even, or (iii) never make
M.E.: Ha ha. So you're not surprised. Even given who I am, very few people have accused me. Most are surprised if I tell them.
Friend: Not surprised. A little surprised that he is the kind of person who would tell you that that is what he thought of you.
M.E.: He says he is a great judge of character and he is right. How right, he may never know.
Friend: A little concerned, but what can you do
M.E.: So funny, because I have been completely normal around him. It's really very perceptive of him. He said, "When i first met you, I thought that you were really directionless. Now I realize it is the opposite, you plan everything. You're like a serial killer." I said, "P, how would you even know anything about me?" He said, "I have you 70% figured out. I learn more from what you don't say than what you do say. When you talk i just hear 'bla bla bla.' I feel like anything you say is more misdirection than anything else. Instead I choose to focus on your body language and other tells."
Friend: Your general demeanor does suggest subterfuge
M.E.: Ha, how?
Friend: in lots of ways
M.E.: Oh, he has always been creeped out by my super calm.
Friend: You tell people about a lot of your scheming. Your calculations that other people (i) never tell other people, (ii) never tell themselves, even, or (iii) never make
M.E.: Ha ha. So you're not surprised. Even given who I am, very few people have accused me. Most are surprised if I tell them.
Friend: Not surprised. A little surprised that he is the kind of person who would tell you that that is what he thought of you.
M.E.: He says he is a great judge of character and he is right. How right, he may never know.
Very interesting. Perhaps he's paying closer attention to your intentions than your words. Intentions usually aren't very difficult to discern if you ignore what's being said, focusing instead on the likely result. If there's too much of a disconnect between the two, or if the likely results remain true to a consistent theme while the nature of the words vary, it's an excellent sign that something else is going on. Perhaps you've been too transparent.
ReplyDeleteIf you think this is what he's doing, you may try projecting false intent that seems like a natural continuation of what he suspects. Use his perceptive nature to lead him down the wrong path. Just don't be too obvious about it, or you may tip your hand and lose the ability to throw him off.
In my day-to-day life, I try to obfuscate my underlying motives not just by putting on an act, but by taking subtle action that would lead to false goals being fulfilled. I.E. try to get someone expelled from a group as subtly as possible, while slightly less subtly (and realistically less effectively, though perceivably more effectively) trying to defend them and keep them in everyone's good graces. Overtly, I simply do not get involved, focusing instead on my normal day-to-day affairs. It may not be a perfect system, and it may not work every time, but I've never been called out or accused of anything. In fact, most think I'm harmless and weak. I think it might actually disgust some people. :)
Regardless, I fly under the radar.
I may be preaching to the choir here, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents.
Any thoughts from others?
Daniel, you said you manipulate quite frequently.
How do you handle this "inner thread"?
Oh, I might add "pure" to that list. If I had a nickle for every time I've been told I'm the purest person someone knows, I'd be a very happy man.
ReplyDeletePeter Pan said, “Perhaps he's paying closer attention to your intentions than your words…”
ReplyDeleteHe is if he’s a smart man. Actions and the consequences attached are the first thing to examine. I think many people are too caught up with words and how those words make them feel to see this.
“If you think this is what he's doing, you may try projecting false intent that seems like a natural continuation of what he suspects. Use his perceptive nature to lead him down the wrong path. Just don't be too obvious about it, or you may tip your hand and lose the ability to throw him off.”
Good advice.
“I may be preaching to the choir here, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents.”
Are you sure you aren’t a sociopath? lol
“Daniel, you said you manipulate quite frequently.
How do you handle this ‘inner thread’?”
Depends on what you mean by frequently. And curse my literal mind, but I don’t know what you mean by inner thread.
So few people in my personal circle are truly insightful and perceptive that I barely have to try. Last year I cemented my sweeter than sweet reputation among my friends and fellow wage slaves by volunteering to be a possible kidney donor for one of my co-worker’s father-in-law. I asked her to keep my offer hush hush. Of course, I was virtually certain that she would not keep it a secret and that she would not take me up on my offer. She was so moved by the gesture that she knighted me as one of the most genuinely caring person’s she’s ever known. She told her dear friend, the office gossip, who naturally told everyone else. Yeah, it was a fairly blunt little trick, but since no one in the circle is really paying attention, it worked. This wise cracking saint rep I’ve developed comes in real handy considering all the slacking off I do on a regular basis. So yeah Peter, if I had a nickel and so on I’d be a fairly well off man too and for the same reasons.
Manipulation isn't exclusive to sociopaths. It needn't be immoral, either. As stated above, I believe results are what matter, not what you do to achieve them. So if I have to lie and manipulate to get my way, so be it, so long as I'm not making a woman think I love her just to dump her on her ass when she's outlived her usefulness.
ReplyDeleteI manipulate because I can't relate to most people. They're too stupid, too consumed with boring social fads, pop culture, and celebrities. My interests lie in the concrete and functional.
Plus, most people aren't interested in in-depth discussions. They'd rather talk about the weather or how "cool" they think something is as a whole, instead of going into the details, like how and why this "cool" thing is so fascinating. I can't drop myself to that level without putting on a mask, so why not wear one full time?
It's a lot like trying to relate to legal retards. A life on their level wouldn't be worth living.
So fuck it.
Though I have to admit, I do get a lot of pleasure out of fucking with people. I love watching them run around like headless chickens. I can't deny it, though I do my best to avoid causing any real damage. :)
ReplyDelete“Manipulation isn't exclusive to sociopaths. It needn't be immoral, either.”
ReplyDeleteTrue. One form of manipulation or another comprise the operating manual for most relationships, no?
"It's a lot like trying to relate to legal retards."
LOL!
"Though I have to admit, I do get a lot of pleasure out of fucking with people. I love watching them run around like headless chickens. I can't deny it…"
I know, right? It’s fun. And yet… If my memory serves me right, you also said in one of your previous comments that you found yourself wracked with painful feelings (guilt?) when you fucked with people. I remember saying that I didn’t understand why you did it if it hurt later. I still don’t. I like jacking off just as much as the next guy, but if I experienced rug burn like pain after every ejaculation, I’d stop quick, fast and in a hurry. Do you still experience emotional suffering behind fucking with people or did you find a way to turn all of that off?
You've found me at a loss for words.
ReplyDeleteI should feel guilty for causing chaos, but I never do. If I cause lasting damage, I certainly feel guilty, but never for causing temporary distress. Usually, I just fear being found out.
I'm not sure how to make sense of that.
You told me before that you experienced emotional pain when you did damaging things. You likened it to an addiction, one that you wanted to stop but didn’t know how. Are you now saying that this emotional pain is only triggered when you cause “major” damage or… what?
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I'm not sure. Sometimes it's there, and sometimes it's not.
ReplyDeleteLike right now, I can't think of a single thing I've done that I feel guilty about. Ever. I can't even imagine why I would.
Yet I distinctly remember feeling absolutely horrible about certain things in the past, but I can't understand why.
It comes and goes.
DID maybe?
ReplyDeletePeter Pan said, "DID maybe?"
ReplyDeleteThunderball was one of your alters, wasn't he?
Actually, DID would make a lot of sense, assuming DID personalities can find expression in an online environment. I have many different online aliases, and now that I think about it, my personality varies greatly depending on which I'm using, not due to a conscious choice.
ReplyDeleteMy three primary online personalities adhere to the following distinctive themes:
1) Helps people at all costs. No desire or effort to understand itself. Focused entirely on others.
2) Destroys things it doesn't like and has a casual disregard for the feelings and rights of others. Understands itself and doesn't care.
3) Tries to explore and learn about everything with an objective view of the world, including itself.
I don't think these are just mood shifts, because my perceptions of my past, present, and future change dramatically. I look back at the same events and see them in an entirely different light, and different memories seem alternately vivid or obscure depending on which "mode" I'm in, so to speak.
Years ago, I tried on several occasions to write down my life as I remember it, and I remember there were always a few distinctly different versions. Sometimes it was full of exploits and conquests, and at other times it was full of abandonment and abuse. This would make sense if there were a dissociative disorder involved.
In fact, I think it can explain many of the traits I suspected might mean I'm a sociopath, which lead me here in the first place. It's harder to identify personality shifts in person, because there's no record of them like there is online, but I know they're there. I spoke with a woman I dated and lived with for about 3 years, and I asked her if she noticed how my mannerisms and speech style shifted. She said it was very apparent to her and actually amusing to watch. I hadn't realized it was that extreme until then, though she only noticed it because she was with me 24/7.
No, Thunderball wasn't me.
ReplyDeleteSometimes, I just don’t know when to take you seriously Peter. But since it costs me to nothing, I’ll just act like you’re telling me the truth and go from there.
ReplyDeleteSo here’s something I found on dissociative disorders that don’t necessarily involve amnesia, since you didn’t mention losing time or blacking out:
Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified
Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (DDNOS) is an inclusive category for classifying dissociative syndromes that do not meet the full criteria of any of the other dissociative disorders. A person diagnosed with Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (DDNOS) typically displays characteristics very similar to some of the previously discussed dissociative disorders, but not severe enough to receive their diagnoses. DDNOS includes variants of Dissociative Identity Disorder in which personality “states” may take over consciousness and behavior but are not sufficiently distinct, and variants of Dissociative identity disorder in which there is no amnesia for personal information. Other forms of DDNOS include possession and trance states, Ganser’s syndrome, derealization unaccompanied by depersonalization, dissociated states in people who have undergone intense coercive persuasion (e.g., brainwashing, kidnapping), and loss of consciousness not attributed to a medical condition.
Perhaps, if you’re telling the truth, you have a kind of partial D.I.D. Did you experience prolonged and ongoing abuse as a child? Also, check into 'ego state' therapy.
Also, it is my highly unprofessional opinion that most of us have various “selves”. You hear people all the time mentioning how they talk with themselves silently (and sometimes not so silently), how they wrestle with themselves, how they can’t live with themselves and so on. That kind of language suggests that people subjectively experience several versions of themselves at various times. Even Freud mentioned a tripartite sense of self or selves when he talked about the so called id, ego and superego. And every time we daydream we dissociate. So dissociation and differing selves or ego states aren’t pathological. The problem starts when those ego states dissociate from themselves. If the dissociation is severe enough, you get your classic D.I.D.
ReplyDeleteAs I’ve said before, I believe personality traits exist on a spectrum rather than in boxes with hard lines separating them, and this would include the so called disorders. Perhaps you’re not a full blown case of D.I.D., but then again, you’re a few steps away from a ‘normal’ sense of your ego states and/or dissociation.
And maybe we're all full of shit!
Yes. I went from a good life living with loving grandparents in a very nice home and neighborhood, with a very nice Mormon baby sitter, to living with my mother and her abusive lover in a trailer park. My first best friend in this neighborhood was a (very stupid) psychopath who would beat me up, spit on me, try to get me to drink piss, stand on my fingers while I was trying to climb up rocks on a mountain, and one time even closed up the entrance to a storm drain tunnel I was exploring with rocks and brush, and lit it on fire. Told everyone I was a satanist so nobody would talk to me. I remember one time he grabbed a steak knife and pinned his pregnant sister on the ground... he was like 9. His brother and I just casually told them we were leaving and left them like that. That's how messed up things were. I still remember his laugh. This insanity became a part of my daily life, and my best friend after that was more like what you would describe as a sociopath. We actually got along very well, though I did risk killing him with a compound bow, on one occasion, just for a thrill. Friendship with him was crazy like that. We also used to play "who can spin the ice pick the fastest and still catch it." I won, still have scars. We also destroyed a lot of creative online projects, just for the fun of it. He usually did most of the dirty work, and I mostly made it possible for him either by producing plans or tools.
ReplyDeleteAt home, I was more or less confined to my room if I wasn't doing chores, which were never done well enough no matter how much time or effort I put into them. Going above and beyond was generally met with disgust and the suggestion that I should or might have to do the extra things on a daily basis.
So sure, I guess you could say I underwent some prolonged trauma. Going from an upper-middle class life to that, big shock. Happened around 2nd grade.
There was a lot more, but I won't bore you with it.
"DDNOS includes variants of Dissociative Identity Disorder in which personality 'states' may take over consciousness and behavior but are not sufficiently distinct, and variants of Dissociative identity disorder in which there is no amnesia for personal information."
Sounds pretty close.
My religious beliefs change as well. So does my stance on topics of controversy, like abortion, gay marriage, etc. It's gotten to the point where I often can't stand leaving any kind of written trail behind, because reading it is almost painful. Hell, even knowing it's out there is bad. I read what I've written, and it seems completely foreign to me. I mean I remember writing it, but it doesn't represent what I think or feel. "I don't want to be associated with that!" is typically my first reaction.
Like that statement above about everyone being stupid, being like retards, etc. Right now, I can't relate to that at all. I see that as narcissistic trash.
But I believed it when I wrote it, and later, I will see these comments and curse their existence as well. Too weak, you see. Or too dramatic. Depends on which "state" I'm in. Right now, all I see is honesty.
Daniel,
ReplyDeleteMost of the lying I do is either a) not lying because I believe what I'm saying or b) an attempt to bring something I've said but don't agree with into congruence with what I do believe or c) to mask the fact that I've said something I don't agree with.
There are a few times, like when the callous domineering personality takes hold, that I will lie and fuck with people just for amusement's sake, but most of the time I'm just trying to cope.
If you believe you may very well have some kind of ego state disorder then you should seek help, especially if it’s causing problems for you. Conversely, if it isn’t causing serious problems, then maybe you could try and see if you can get the various ego states to cooperate with one another. Maybe you can achieve a kind of working equilibrium between the various parts. Journaling and accepting what each part has to say might help with that.
ReplyDeleteAnother suggestion, if there is a working ego state that is the ‘you’ that ‘you’ think of as yourself most of the time, that ‘you’ could fight one or more of the destructive ES’s by forcing it into silence every time it speaks something ‘you’ don’t want to hear. This works because that’s basically what I did to rid myself of depressive thoughts and suicidal ideation. Every time a depressive thought appeared in my mind, I told it to stop and finally, they didn’t appear in my mind anymore.
A third suggestion is integration, which, as I imagine you already know, is normally the main goal of D.I.D. therapy. If your partial dissociation is in fact the direct result of prolonged childhood abuse and/or emotional trauma (as in what you referred to above) there might be emotions that you have dissociated from your waking/working self. Those emotions are 'embodied' in the other parts. Those emotions need to accessed, accepted and reintegrated into your sense of self to effect integration. I imagine a therapist would definitely need to be contacted for integration though.
I think I like myself just the way I am. :)
ReplyDelete