But let me end with a list of unresolved issues... I wouldn't like to give an image of someone who thinks they're so fucking awesome that all their problems are solved. As a matter of fact, I often torture myself. Wearing new masks and constantly adopting new personas pushes the envelope. My impersonations are increasingly demanding, and I'm often confronted with the limitations of what I can know/do/say. I regularly experience failure trying to pull it off, and I've lost friends and allies because I've either (1) chosen to be the wrong person, (2) gave a poor, sloppy performance without studying the part, or (3) locked myself into a role that was too demanding, almost exhausting for the long run, so I had to make a messy "exit." I also lack long-term plans, which is frustrating. I can plan for the short term, maybe up to 1-2 years in the future, but then I'm lost. I don't know whether I should be married and have kids, succeed in the corporate world, settle down or maintain my independence. Without a clear "dream," I constantly feel unprepared and confused. I dare not choose any specific vision, because I know I'm gonna be bored and abandon it before I get a chance to see it to fruition. So far I have remained a student, which has given me time to satisfy my curiosity and has prevented me from committing to any particular "life," but soon I'll have to make tough choices. Finally, I am terrified of sickness. Death, I can deal with. But being incapacitated, in pain, and looking pitiful in the eyes of total douchebags, I cannot bear. Hence, I tend to overreact to minor pains and overly worry about my health.
Well... I think this is the most sincere thing I've written... ever. I totally get why you feel the urge to "out" yourself to people. I very much feel the same way. I wish people were less blind. I get frustrated when I throw characteristically sociopathic opinions their way (e.g., "everyone wants to be manipulated and lied to") and they respond thoughtfully, yet failing to make any further inferences about me. They may think I'm cute, funny, maybe a little eccentric, but as long as I am not holding a knife they're happy believing I'm like them. As such, your blog is truly invaluable. Thanks M.E.
Well... I think this is the most sincere thing I've written... ever. I totally get why you feel the urge to "out" yourself to people. I very much feel the same way. I wish people were less blind. I get frustrated when I throw characteristically sociopathic opinions their way (e.g., "everyone wants to be manipulated and lied to") and they respond thoughtfully, yet failing to make any further inferences about me. They may think I'm cute, funny, maybe a little eccentric, but as long as I am not holding a knife they're happy believing I'm like them. As such, your blog is truly invaluable. Thanks M.E.
Nice writing. I relate to some of your comments.
ReplyDelete“My impersonations are increasingly demanding, and I'm often confronted with the limitations of what I can know/do/say. I regularly experience failure trying to pull it off, and I've lost friends and allies because I've either (1) chosen to be the wrong person, (2) gave a poor, sloppy performance without studying the part, or (3) locked myself into a role that was too demanding, almost exhausting for the long run, so I had to make a messy "exit."”
You could also get caught in a situation where two different masks are called for at the same time. Tricky that one. Why not create a generic one? An artistic, eccentric one as an example. More useful in the corporate world when you get there, particularly an artist one because they’re relatively rare there and the performance can be anything. Any screw ups will be seen as quirky artistic behavior. Everyone loves artists. Also, introduce more than one mask to the same people/social groups. If you have to switch, people will hardly notice.
”Finally, I am terrified of sickness. Death, I can deal with. But being incapacitated, in pain, and looking pitiful in the eyes of total douchebags, I cannot bear.”
The pity I don’t care about as much as the idea of being trapped in a useless body and having to rely on that pity.
M.E., I have a suggestion:
ReplyDeleteDo not publish another 10 part series on what some anonymous goofball thinks of himself.
It's all too easy for some lonely person to read the PCL-R and think . . .
"That's me! All those times I felt nervous, confused and marginal . . . I was just wearing a mask. I'm only pretending to be insignificant and neurotic to disguise my sinister intelligence."
We get enough of that in the comments section.
Since I usually make the most outrageous and offensive comments here, I'm going to assume that bit was aimed at least partially at me, Harry. I know I'm insignificant and neurotic, and say what you will about me, I don't try to disguise it as anything else.
ReplyDeleteIf you're talking about the people claiming to be a super-awesome-self-aware-mega-special-sociopath-lord, then disregard the above, and more power to you.
ME:
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing this guy's email. Did you write a response to him? If so, what did you say?
Just curious.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSomeone I've known for many years told me about some terrible and illegal stuff he did over thirty years ago. I was shocked and asked him, "What are you, a sociopath?" And when I saw a little flash of . . . recognition? acknowledgment? non-denial? . . . something in his eyes, it made me realize I'd hit the nail on the head. He just half-smiled, averted eye contact, and changed the topic, ignoring my question. I wish he'd admitted it, because I realized only later that he was one. Honesty could have helped me understand his behavior, and thus saved our 20-year friendship, which he ended up sabotaging. I no longer speak to him because of his selfish and bizarre behavior. It's sad, but I don't miss him because I lost respect for him.
ReplyDeleteI'm wondering, if/when people call you out on being a sociopath, do admit it? Wouldn't it be a relief to talk about it? Or is it something that's too hard to explain to us empaths?
Another question - do you ever wish you could experience emotions? My ex-friend said he's never had an emotional connection with a woman (he's in his fifties). Regarding the mother of his kids, he claimed he was "renting a womb." Both of his wives divorced him. Is it even possible to maintain relationships as a sociopath? He's never had a long-term one, yet he's a sex addict.
When someone calls you out as one, it isn't the same as casually admitting to be a sociopath. The initial feeling of being outed is similar to being blackmailed, even if there is no real threat.
ReplyDeleteFor starters—you are called out, which sounds like a threat to the trust you might have developed with that person and you immediately begin to question that person’s motives regarding the information.
Say someone told you that they knew and not only knew but also had proof that you stole ten grand from your job, nothing else said or acknowledged about it...would you think that they would use that information to sabotage you? Maybe they said it just to let you know that you’re secret is safe, but then why not just say that? Your mind starts to run over every detail of your friendship until you decide if they can be trusted or not, bought or not, and so on and so forth.
The same thought process happens when you are called out.
You may have even been cool with that certain someone knowing you are a sociopath and planned to tell them at some point...but when that person says "you are a sociopath" with a smile, you might wonder the intentions behind that smile.
Revealing yourself is a calculated choice where the risks have been measured…but someone revealing you is a risk and you might have to calculate just what that friend is worth to you in the long run with that unsanctioned secret nested into their brain.
Hi.
ReplyDeleteOk this is a long comment so I am going to split it up.
I have a question for the sociopaths but first some background. I'm an aspie and a long time ago in my late teens I had a relationship with someone the same age that I now suspect was a sociopath. I think we were genuinely pretty close. We never had sex, mostly because of my hesitation, but we would make
out for hours and be super affectionate with each other. The first time we kissed I think we both felt fireworks. It was a
magnetic kiss that we exploded into.
We had some of the same interests and similar talents and I think we were both kind of smart and both liked to win. And I guess we both had empathy issues though mine was more that I couldn't handle feelings and was super guarded and he I guess had a different arrangement of feelings or no conscience or whatever.
I was certainly no angel. I had been bullied when young and had issues with it and could occasionally be a little mean.
What makes me think he was a socio was he would do things completely out of character at times and often at odd times like steal, lie and cheat. I caught him cheating once during a game, it was very subtle, which I never told him, though it shocked me. Also, early when we met he did kind of flatter me once and it affected me though I don't think the flattery was a lie or exaggerated being objective about it as others had told me this it was just the way he did it seemed far more profound. One time I asked him if he loved me and he flew into a sudden out of character intense but brief rage saying no.
to be continued....
continued...
ReplyDeleteAt the time I was like ok, he seems a little screwed up but so
am I so I just let it go. We used to have a lot of fun. So many times people used to see us and remark how it was so obvious that we liked each other. He used to try and convince me about satanism and do what thou wilt stuff and I just thought and told him it was all nonsense, the god devil crap. Thinking back, I think he used to make statements, sometimes strong ones and sometimes perceptive ones, to gauge my reaction, but I can see now that some of my reactions probably threw him and forced him to make radical changes to what he would have to project which I think he had to know would be obviously noticed. Ironically, do to my behavior we separated.
I was too immature to go where we should have went. I was one of those high pride people who had difficulty admitting fault and showing weakness and vulnerability in addition to any aspieishness. Though perhaps in this case it served me well? I don't know. He really kind of got under my skin and had we deepened the relationship I guess it could have been worse. I am not one hundred percent certain he was a Socio but it really fits. And now that I think about it I have mixed emotions. I feel chilled, sad and I also miss him. I later learned he had seizures too which I believe socios tend to suffer more.
This was very long ago, decades. I've always kind of thought of him and regretted that we weren't more and regretted some of my behavior. However, with these new insights, I am thinking maybe "us" would not have been good. He is gone now, and the whole thing makes me kind of sad.
So some quesions. Based on what I have read, it seems that it's not just the case that socios lack a conscience, but it seems that socios particularly enjoy causing pain to others as opposed to enjoying creating happiness or being neutral.
Like there seems to be a bias in this direction and they get some sort of neurotransmitter benefit from it. They get joy out of it perhaps because they are angry at empaths annoying emotionalism that they don't experience and that interferes with them getting what they want. Not sure if this is accurate as some of the messages here suggest this is not totally correct.
If my friend was a true socio, do you think he could have say killed me at any time? Do socios ever have a value system like depicted in Dexter? Can a socio really like someone beyond what they absolutely can get from them? Are they ever attracted to
qualities of people? Can they like someone at all? Someone that genuinely likes the way they really are?
I could be totally wrong about my friend. In any case I don't harbor any bad feelings towards him. If I could go back in time I would talk to him about all this, and I would let him know that I totally accept him. Though honestly, I would be a wary of him and would be extra guarded in a different way. And I might let him know that too.
Sorry for the book. Thanks.
You are clearly misinformed and about damn near everything you said about sociopaths.
ReplyDeleteI have heard of no sufficant data that suggests that sociopaths suffer from seizures more then others and that seems like a rather huge bit of insight to have never been covered by a medical study or that it has never been mentioned on this blog until you said it.
The long background says less about his alleged sociopathicness then it does of your inability to let go of a past love and the guilt you feel about it going south.
Oh and Dexter is TV—nuff said.
"I'm wondering, if/when people call you out on being a sociopath, do admit it? Wouldn't it be a relief to talk about it? Or is it something that's too hard to explain to us empaths?"
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's necessarily too hard, there's just no rational reason to do so. You have to remember that sociopaths feel no innate desire to share themselves with anyone else. As far as they're concerned, the people around them are all stage props in a movie about their life. They are the one and only star, the sole significant entity in the entire performance.
To put this in other terms... let's say your made your way through life by hunting rabbits. Rabbits that could talk and understand speech, but were still brainless animals. And generally speaking, they all think you're a rabbit too, for some strange reason. Now, one day, one of the rabbits calls you out for what you are. Do you admit it? How will you survive when all the rabbits know what you are and how you survive? Why the hell would you want to tell this rabbit, anyway?
Lie lie lie, deny deny deny.
And guess who's next for dinner?
Here, just think.
ReplyDeleteTALKING RABBIT: "HEWWO JOHN. YOU EAT WABBITS HUH."
RABBIT HUNTER: "Uhhh... why, no... no uhm... hewwo wabbit. I don't eat wabbits, no never. Let... wets go fwowick in the gwass kay?"
The talking rabbit was never heard from again.
What is wrong with you PP?
ReplyDeleteSeriously now, talking rabbits?
TALKING RABBIT: HEWWO ANON. YOU AW WIFEWESS AN UNINTEWESTING HUH.
ReplyDeleteAnother question - do you ever wish you could experience emotions?
ReplyDeleteDo you ever wish you could shut them off and live a day or week without them?
The truth is, sociopaths can "experience" emotions, they are just shallow versions of them.
If you google sociopath and seizures, you'll find a few references.
ReplyDeleteHere is an article:
ReplyDeletehttp://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_know_if_someone_is_a_sociopath
He also had a little speech impediment.
http://img13.imageshack.us/i/wabbits.jpg/
ReplyDeleteHere's another useful link.
wonder what it could be
ReplyDeleteIt's the first scene from my new picture book, John and friends. John is a kind of mutant demon bunny who eats other bunnies. The other bunnies all think he's normal, because he tore off one of their scalps and uses it as a hat. He roams around bunny world eating bunnies and going to the bathroom in the river. His excrement is poisonous and keeps the bunnies naive and stupid, so they're easier to pick off.
ReplyDeleteIt's going to be a hit, I tell you.
Is that an original piece by our very own Peter Pan?
ReplyDeleteI wish I could claim credit. I ordered some H-1B slaves straight from India. They're doing all the grunt work.
ReplyDeleteIt was tough working with them at first. They kept trying to drawing elephants instead of rabbits, and John always seemed to have eight arms.
But, after repeatedly beating them over the head with a rock (which they now reverently refer to as Gaandu, which I'm told is a very respectful term), they started to get it right.
They can't seem to draw straight lines any more, but I think that just adds character to the book.
You are HI-larious Mr. Pan!!!
ReplyDeleteI enjoy your presence here.
As for the last post...
I'm not sure I understand why you would concern yourself with losing "friends".
I mean; if you look up the definition of Friend:
a person attached to another by feelings of affection or personal regard.
2. a person who gives assistance; patron; supporter.
3. a person who is on good terms with another; a person who is not hostile: Who goes there? Friend or foe?
You are not capable of truly befriending someone. You are only capable of making them believe you have, but there should still be no tie felt by you, and therefor no loss; right?
The only loss I can imagine you feeling; is that of not winning.
All this worry talk on this final script...
Very interesting. So Hypochondriac
as well?
You sound pretty self pitying, and actually rather pathetic in this last attempt at convincing your audience here.
I'd say this too was a sloppy performance.
After all; you say you wish people were "less blind". As if to say, "I wish people could see who I really am." Like any ordinary person who wishes to be understood and accepted.Yet their blindness, is what ensures your survival. You thrive on trickery.
But then who am I to judge or contradict what is said here?
Most of what I read from the posts and comments on this site, gives me the impression that most are able to contradict themselves without assistance; saving me the trouble. :)
Who's post are you refering to Eden?
ReplyDeleteOne final peek:
ReplyDeleteIn the next section of the picture book, John entices a talking rabbit to hop into his circular saw.
TALKING RABBIT: "THAT DON'T WOOK WIKE A MASSAGEW TO ME, JOHN."
JOHN: "No, no, I promise it is! Look, wook how rewaxed that dead wabbit is!"
TALKING RABBIT: "OK JOHN YOUR THE BEST!!"
If you want more, you'll have to wait 'til the book is done.
someone a little angry :)?
ReplyDeletehere's an interesting link imo on sociopathy:
ReplyDeletehttp://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/sociopath.html
There is more here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/confessions%20of%20a%20young%20sociopath.html
that second link in particular is very interesting... that doctor clears it up pretty nicely imo
ReplyDeletePeter Pan said: "I'm going to assume that bit was aimed at least partially at me"
ReplyDeleteThat's funny, I was thinking of your little buddy.
Now now, Harry, you'd better watch out. He's dangerous, you know. You should check his mental health records. He might psychologically torture your cat. You don't want that, now do you?
ReplyDelete"That's me! All those times I felt nervous, confused and marginal . . . I was just wearing a mask. I'm only pretending to be insignificant and neurotic to disguise my sinister intelligence."
ReplyDelete:)
sociopath looking for meaning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0WNbm1jz6A
ReplyDeletei will inject venom into your brain.
ReplyDeleteyou will be zombie.
i will inject larva into your brain.
you will be zombie.
larva will eat you living dead flesh.
you will be zombie.
hello cockroach!
you will be zombie.
when zombie cockroach eat the orange
all the fish lay eggs in the sea.
and singing their bubbly songs
you will be zombie.
when the larve eat your brain
and the fish have flesh
in their ears
you will be zombie.
why is so zombie roach?
you will feed the babies.
rub the roach in the brain
with my zombie venom oh yeah
and make music with the fishes
who lay theyre egg in the sea
you will be zombie
and i have fish for dinner.
larva!
That shit doesn't even rhyme yo!
ReplyDeleteWhat the fuck are you people smoking?
ReplyDeleteWabbits!
ReplyDeleteFuck you, anon. How dare you compare my masterpiece with this rubbish?
ReplyDeleteThere seems to be a fine line between having an uncertain self image and having a pliable self image. If what the author is saying is that she doesn't really know who she is, then that's one thing. But if she's saying she knows (to an extent) who she is or wants to be and still feels the need to constantly wear masks, then I don't understand. Why don't you just drop the mask and be who you are? Unless you really have no idea who you are, in which case nevermind. I understand that it's easier to get what you want and to not be ostracized while wearing masks...but, trust me, most people are too busy thinking about themselves to notice your sociopathic tendencies (even while you're waving then in their faces). And anyway, do you really care what other people think? I've always felt that wearing masks was a disservice to oneself. I realize that the man who always tells the truth is the most hated man in the world, but I'd rather be hated than a lie.
ReplyDeleteNevermind...I suppose you're like John- you have to wear the dead wabbit carcass on your head, so as to fool your next meal. But since you don't actually have to hurt/use other people (meaning- you don't actually have to eat wabbits, or at least not any more than your average empath does), why bother? I suppose, I'm basically asking the same (unanswered) question as aspie-anon did: "...it seems that it's not just the case that socios lack a conscience, but it seems that socios particularly enjoy causing pain to others as opposed to enjoying creating happiness or being neutral." Why?
ReplyDeleteHow do you know anon-aspie wrote that? It says anonymous :)
ReplyDeleteWell, after reading a lot online, I think I now know the very simple answer to that question. No psychology degree needed.
ReplyDeleteHere is an interesting link:
http://usminc.org/crowley.html
wonder how he would answer it
I'm the Anonymous who posted the original questions (sixth comment). After reading the responses I want to add that my ex friend (a sociopath) was diagnosed with epilepsy when he was in high school. I asked him if he still suffers from it, and he said no. Yet I found a bottle of his meds with the label ripped off. I identified them as anti-seizure meds after doing a little research in the Physician's Desk Reference. Lie and deny, whatever. Maybe there is a correlation. It's all left hemisphere frontal cortex related, it seems. Nothing to be ashamed of, it's just neurology.
ReplyDeleteyeah mine too but with not good outcome
ReplyDeleteI heard he was left like that which resulted in bad outcome which if true is messed up. I would have saved him and then gotten away... pretty crazy i guess.
ReplyDeleteThe simple answer aside, as an aspie, I imagine their experience is like this.
ReplyDeleteSocios see non-socios as primitive creatures, to put it as positively as possible, and look at our emotional conflicts, our ability to feel and empathize, our "conscience", as hypocritical stupid nonsense. They are repulsed by it. It offends them. They wish to use it and possibly wreck it because they see it as false and because they can do it and reap short term gains, which is what they want. What they want is good.
They also get appear to get pleasure from it .... because they see it as just in a way and possibly because they are just wired in a way that their experience/boredom is affected by sending a primitive into pain and more conflict which creates a dopamine/serotonin rush for them... yada yada. They are playing with dumb toys.
They consider themselves very logical beings and very intelligent and in a sense, some are very intelligent, but only in a limited sense. They develop this intelligence and clarity of thought because they are not encumbered by much emotional conflict or guilt or worry. This allow them to develop serious technical abilities. It is limited because there is no checks in place to stop it from destroying itself. They also can't appreciate what we feel and how it affects logic... how it gives it perspective .. life is infinitely more than math and logic ... Anyone can play math out.
They see logic as the only truth, because that is all they have access to. When they look at non socios, they see themselves, only in a very primitive form. An offensive form. They see people using other people, they see people suffering from apparently self induced low self esteem, they see hidden vanity, they see people who would like to be promicuous but are not because it would be "wrong" and they would feel "guilty", they see hypocrites whining about love, feelings, the right thing etc. They basically see us as dumb whiny hypocritical sheep. This is how I imagine the very "highest quality" ones view us. I could be wrong of course.
And then you have mean ones.
Dumb whiny hypocritical mean sheep.
ReplyDeletelol
ReplyDeleteTALKING BUNNY: "I WUNDUW IF HE TINKS IM PWIMITIVE!"
ReplyDeleteJOHN thinks: Mmmmm lunch.
There seems to be a fine line between having an uncertain self image and having a pliable self image. If what the author is saying is that she doesn't really know who she is, then that's one thing. But if she's saying she knows (to an extent) who she is or wants to be and still feels the need to constantly wear masks, then I don't understand.
ReplyDeleteI have a strong sense of self, had an uncertain self image, and a way of getting into someone else's head and becoming them. They're all different. Becoming someone else was a reflex. Being myself wasn't automatic. I had to consciously learn how to hold myself, when to make eye contact, shake hands, how to walk etc. That all took time.
When I'm not focused on emotions life is easier, clearer, more spontaneous, just as intense. Feelings make things cloudy. And I'm realizing mine can be predatory, controlling, when they take over. But at the same time I rely on them.
speech impediments as well
ReplyDeleteAspie rap :)
ReplyDeleteYou owned me
and I loved you for it
but you're nothing
and you free me
I feel vast and sure
never felt like this
thank you
To: anonymous with ex sociopath friend - do you still keep in touch with him at all? sorry if I was cryptic earlier - my socio friend died from a seizure... I heard he was left in that state without care... fucked up stuff.
ReplyDeletehttp://img69.yfrog.com/i/johntrust.jpg/
ReplyDeleteYou didn't think I was joking, did you?
I do not have any contact with my ex-friend. I requested he never contact me again and he said he would respect my wishes, and so far he has. No offense to sociopaths, but it seems impossible for empaths to enjoy a healthy, mutually beneficial relationship with those not wired like us. "Fool me once, joke's on me. Fool me twice, fuck you" is my attitude. He took advantage of my generosity once and I was All Set. You won't find me simpering on Love Fraud or crying into a Kleenex at a shrink's. Anyone who puts up with a sociopath's b.s. more than once is a jackass.
ReplyDelete"I totally get why you feel the urge to "out" yourself to people. I very much feel the same way."
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more and appreciated your story, seeing a lot of the same in myself. I'm a bit older (36) and have been wondering around Europe (I'm American) since August 2008. Prior to that I was doing the corporate thing for eight years, the longest I've ever held a job. Luckily it was a huge corporation and I was able to change jobs within the same company repeatedly as I got bored. I tossed all that aside and defaulted on a few tens of thousands of dollars of debt for the European venture, which has been going reasonably well. At least I am not as bored and am inquisitive enough to enjoy the travel and scraping by as a freelance writer for the time being. Nevertheless, there is really no plan whatsoever beyond a few months so it is probably time to pick up a girl here somewhere.
To the blog owner: Anyway, I was considering launching my own blog because I have only recently recognized myself as a near text book sociopath and sort of find the whole discovery quite liberating. Frankly, I am quite happy with myself the way I am but I do want to tell people about it (but anonymously as I am very active online and can't have my "confession" and real views out there on display for anyone to associate with me). I came across your excellent blog when I was looking around to see if anyone else was doing the same thing, and apparently you are.
Anyway, I've reached a point where I am sort of losing my subtlety about my desire to dominate and further corrupt women, as I have a sadistic streak that seems to be intensifying as I get older. Not violent or Hollywood psychopathic or anything, I just really enjoy playing on the weaknesses of women and making them degrade themselves to make me happy with their own consent and active participation. I have come to conclude that this is really is a lot of fun. Luckily I have found the perfect scene for that in the vibrant European goth/fetish scene where there is no want of blatantly masochistic women that I can be absolutely direct and frank about my intentions with and still go for it. (No, I don’t look like any sort of gothic guy: no piercings, all my tattoos are easily concealed, normal haircut, fairly big, moderately athletic, blond guy with a great smile.) There is something to be said for a scene where a line like: “I want to punish you and make you cry” is an effective pick up line (that is actually a summary of a longer exchange, not a one liner).
So, I was wondering if you would be interested in regular contributions from a fellow sociopath, leading an interesting life as such and as an American in Europe? Perhaps something like a regular column I can send in every now and then. If so, respond here first and I’ll send you an email.
If you build it, they will come.
ReplyDeleteTo the anonymous who considers one to be a jackass if he puts up with a sociopaths BS more than once...(though it took you 20 years to see what you think he was) ...many people develop romatic relationships with these "people". They are often sexually versatile, like utterly, and the limiting factor is the other person. If you were a straight guy for example and he was a guy, there is likely a limit for how far he can get into your psyche and how he can manipulate you and abuse you.
ReplyDeleteThese people are manipulators and charmers. They are adept at sussing out what makes one tick, and then presenting an image that if factors are ideal, and they often look for this, will cause the person to fall in love with them and fall hard. This makes it harder to see and believe the abuse or to realize, hey this guy is a thief piece of crap.
The in love state is powerful... brings intense joy and brain changes. They deliberately induce this... to essentially addict them, so they can then have their fun. It is not an easy matter to self destroy these connections, and to let that falsely created joy go. And while its true I think that many victims may have some less that the most altruistic traits themselves, imo, it still gives no one any right to engage in such evil headfucking.
So, I wouldn't be too quick to judge people out there who are suffering as a result of these people and having difficulties letting go.
If you experience joy, then it isn't false joy, no matter where it originated and by what means because joy is joy.
ReplyDeleteWhen you purposely try to prove the authentication of any emotion, you set yourself up to find underlying elements that could taint or falsify something like joy or any emotion for that matter.
And what's wrong with headfucking?
ReplyDeleteIt is real joy in terms of the empath experience (but only temporarily because what comes next is hell off that joy) but it is falsely created joy. From the perspective of 96% of the population... real joy is in thinking the person may feel this way too and that it has been generated because someone is genuinely liked. Because they are special to someone.
ReplyDeleteWhat you guys do is manipulation. The feelings are generated through deception. If a person could really know what you were doing initially, most would run like hell from hell.
As an empath, the problem with headfucking, separate from issues of theology, from upbringing, from having a consciense and recognizing you are causing profound pain to another, is that it is stupid long term. Headfucking eventually gets busted, and long term it will create pressures against you that will eventually lead to a bad ending. And then we will see the socio cry and he will know suffering.
”From the perspective of 96% of the population... real joy is in thinking the person may feel this way too and that it has been generated because someone is genuinely liked. Because they are special to someone.”
ReplyDeleteThen 96% of the population needs to wake up. Joy isn’t some self indulgent view that allows you to feel good based on you imagining that others think you are special to them, that is false joy in my eyes—allowing your own emotions to be swayed like grass in some unseen emotional whirlwind that is shifted around what other’s think of you is self manipulation at its worst.
Look up the definition of joy…no where does it say anything about what others think of you.
It's not that they like you so you like them. It is an interplay of you liking them... possibly because of qualities they have that you like and you imagining them liking you too for similar reasons... shared qualities, interests, liking the way each other looks etc.
ReplyDeleteThis is empathy, which a socio can't really understand, beyond a mathematical sense.
The joy is a part of a larger feeling of love and possibly being loved.
I shoudn't say imagining, but really "feeling" them liking you too because of various feedback, some direct and some not.
ReplyDeleteOf course, it is possible for one person to fall in love or at least have a strong interest with another person who doesn't love them back and isn't a manipulating wack job (sorry :)), but that is a limited experience and the truth is usually known upfront or suspected. The full richness of love is felt when both are on the same page. If one is "cleverly" fooling the other, one feels "love" and its unlimited vastness, the other feels pleasure when he can then fuck 'em in the head.
ReplyDeleteI find sociopathy a very interesting topic, as far as topics go. What is surprising is how common it is. It really makes you think and has lots of other implications. I wonder if in time it will be screened for via imaging as imaging gets more advanced and we suss out the exact brain variation. Then what to do.
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ReplyDeleteIt annoys me when people say things like “I wonder if in time it will be screened for via imaging as imaging gets more advanced and we suss out the exact brain variation.” because essentially, it is the same as saying “I wonder if one day we’ll be able to find the various traits that darken skin pigmentation.”
ReplyDeleteTrying to eliminate unwanted variables in humanity is sociopathic on a far more subtle plane of thought. The question “What to do?” is a stepping stone to far more complex moral questions about race, sex, psychological defects, etc.
I imagine it just annoys me because that day is inevitable in my eyes.
Skin variation is a little different than people born with destructive to the majority qualities. I'm not saying any harm or change should be done but just the dilemma of it. That doctor in that link says that sociopaths have a place, maybe an important one in society. They can do things coldly, cleanly with a clear head and this can be useful towards a directed goal.
ReplyDeleteI read somewhere that in some lands and cultures there is very little sociopathy, which to me suggests that maybe there is an environmental variable. Maybe not but I have my suspicions.
In the minds of some people, skin color can be dangerous.
ReplyDeleteThe environment doesn’t factor into skin color (in the US, not Africa or Mexico) yet the majority of certain urban cities are more hostile because of skin color, so in that line of thinking, skin color is dangerous and some geneticist who thinks that if you eliminate the gene you can eliminate the problem might try to remove pigmentation for that reason.
Would it work?
No, because the environment doesn’t change for the better, if anything it could get worse because now there isn’t that sense of ethnic belonging so the previous chaos might expand because there are no more racial borders. And if the environment is a factor, which it most defiantly is, then it is the people and the circumstances around them that creates a “sociopathic element” where certain people with predisposition to certain traits evolve into sociopaths.
Genetically removing the sociopathic traits could improve the environment or it could cause empathic people to become sociopathic because now there aren’t real sociopaths to do things coldly, cleanly with a clear head and so these makeshift sociopaths suffer greatly because of their conscience eating away at them.
Read “A Clockwork Orange” or see the film, one of the ideas it delves into is what happens when you alter a person’s mindset as well as what happens to the people around him once it is altered. In this case, the key character is a sociopathic person.
When you start to think wholesale humanity, you lose the ingredients that make people human. It doesn’t matter if you genetically change skin color or if you genetically impose empathy and a conscience, you by default become less human.
I doubt pigmentation would be went after directly. They would go after genes linked to aggression, perhaps as part of a schema related to a color, but not the color itself I'd imagine.
ReplyDeleteI think I agree with the gist of what you are saying. But it is interesting to think about. For most people, if there was one trait you could get rid of, I bet that would be number one and would even rank highly among the most racist, hateful non sociopathic people around. Easy to rationalize. Certainly whatever they are good at could be done by others even if less effectively, and maybe without them you would need less of them anyway. But they do exist for some reason/s. Is it part of a natural balance. Is it a variation caused or increased through a wrong environmental choice perhaps diet related.
Kinda doubt it will happen though. I can't see how this doesn't end soon in resource wars and nuclear conflagration. Might be good to be a socio in that kind of environment.
Here is an interesting link with comments and replies by one socio:
ReplyDeletehttp://sociopathcomments.blogspot.com/2008/11/comments-on-common-everyday-sociopaths.html
it was referenced from here:
http://www.youmeworks.com/sociopaths.html
"What you guys do is manipulation. The feelings are generated through deception. If a person could really know what you were doing initially, most would run like hell from hell."
ReplyDeleteI really don't believe that is true. As I've gotten older I've become much less inclined to hide my intentions and what not running away is likely to lead to and still they stay. I honestly believe that a great many empathic people have an inherent masochistic tendency and that a great many of them are quite interested in exploring this part of themselves, at least for a little while.
I've been trying to analyze this tendency in my own willing victims, because frankly I like it a lot and would rather directly go after people with this predisposition rather than others. A few seem to be people that have some sort of weird guilt complexes about things and seem to want to be punished in some way. Others just have low self-esteem and want to explore the idea of being treated the way they think they deserve to be. Some definitely have this whole "topping from the bottom" thing going on where they believe they can end up running the show if they can only addict me to their submission (these are by far the most fun to play with because they seem so certain they'll eventually win if only they try a little harder). There are a few that don't seem to fit any of these categories as well.
The point being, while some people probably would run away if they understood the full extent of what was happening, quite a few would probably still stay just to see what happens. None stay around forever, but then again I wouldn't want them too either, as they're bound to get boring at some point.
In general, I suspect that as long as their are people with suppressed masochistic tendencies, there will never be any lack of consensual victims. Being unaware of what is happening just makes it easier for these people to lay aside their pride and acquiesce.
I think those are some good points. Of course one might suggest that a good part of the socio trip is to blame their victim and also deliberately set it up it to make it look like they are nuts to others in a very deceptive way.
ReplyDeleteI think anyone can be "beaten" if done correctly. It just takes intelligence, a good imagination, a strong will and a little ego. A little single mindedness wouldn't hurt either.
Maybe just like how socios are apparently wired to get a pleasurable rush from inflicting pain and experiencing fear, others are wired in a somewhat complimentary way. There may not be any deep psychological reasons.
Still, I think many if not most would run if they really knew just because there is so much to lose. It's not a good trade for a power dynamic high. There may be safer venues to explore that. I'm not totally sure on that though.
Maybe just like how socios are apparently wired to get a pleasurable rush from inflicting pain and experiencing fear, others are wired in a somewhat complimentary way.
ReplyDeleteI believe that is indeed the case and it somewhat validates the supposition that there isn't anything inherently "wrong" with the wiring in either case. It seems that in nature most creatures - regardless of their inclinations - have complimenting partners, though their relationship may not be precisely friendly; and so it seems to be with personality types as well.
Though outside observers may subjectively sympathize with the sheep, the wolf's actions are just as natural and normal in the relationship between the two. I would suggest the same can be said for givers and takers, sadists and masochists, and other conflicted but complimentary personality types.
By most academic accounts, sociopaths are not some minuscule aberration but constitute a large and fairly integrated minority, usually cited at around two to four percent of the population. Such numbers simply wouldn't be possible if at least some significantly larger subset of the majority were not at least tolerant - or at most willing - participants in the games we basically live on. In most predator/prey relationships, the prey survive collectively by having vastly larger numbers, and again I believe the parallel holds.
So, in the end, I personally have just decided to accept who and what I am and go with it. Further, I believe we're just as much a natural part of human society as anyone else. And finally that there are plenty of other people that have a natural predisposition to want what we have to offer. We may not be "nice" per se, but we are just as much a part of society as anyone else and as such must play some role in its development and evolution.
OR... perhaps I'm just a delusional ass trying to glorify and justify some rather unpleasant personal characteristics. Either way, I really don't think anyone can deny that an awfully lot of otherwise intelligent, observant, and self-reliant people decide to stay with people like us long after it is patently obvious and perfectly clear what we intend to take from the relationship. I'd rather think they are prey playing their natural role as opposed to total idiots that are too stupid to see the writing on the wall. Call it my natural faith in humanity... :)
My problem with all of this is that I think that there are many people who truly don't want to be treated and affected in this manner. They are not genetically programmed to be abused or want to be abused or be in a socio dynamic. Some have self esteem issues that have arisen possibly because of prior abuse, (by a socio or one affected by a socio?) but in no way do they want to suffer or enjoy it. They are trapped I guess in the worse cases. And those are the people I feel for. And it gives me a poor view of the S. Let's face it, the S is taking down whoever they can. You may say, dude, this is reality. I guess my nature or response is to not like this, regardless.
ReplyDeleteBut I think there is a good lesson in all of this. And that is to know yourself and do not fuck around.
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DAMN! That was meant to be the superman S, only for sociopath.
ReplyDeleteLet's face it, the S is taking down whoever they can. You may say, dude, this is reality. I guess my nature or response is to not like this, regardless.
ReplyDeleteFair enough. All natural predators are opportunists. There is no natural predator that consciously targets the strongest and fastest of the herd ignoring more readily available victims that can be taken at a lower energy expenditure. Among herds of prey animals, the alphas rarely fall to predators; instead those who fall are the lost, the confused, the stupid, the weak, those who stray too far from the collective and those lacking basic survival instincts. These can serve no greater purpose than to be taken and devoured, deflecting the predators from their betters and improving the collective by removing their genes from the breeding population.
The same is true in human dynamics. The characteristics you cited before - intelligence, a good imagination, a strong will and a little ego & single mindedness - is pretty much all anyone needs to get away from us, but luckily there are plenty of people lacking them. In fact, if you have these characteristics, you should be happy that many others do not as it means people like me will leave you alone in favor of devouring your weaker peers. It pays to be better and stronger.
I assume by virtue of your willing participation here that you rank among the superiors and have nothing to fear from us. In which case, it is nice to "meet" you, as it were.
Thanks Dionysus for the friendly tone. Nice to meet you too. No offense but I think it unwise for anyone to think they have nothing to fear from an S. Maybe less to fear, maybe even not.
ReplyDeleteI've always been extremely naive I see. I have AS, realized recently, probably somewhat overcome or grown out of, and can now see that I have had much dealings with S's in my life besides the one that got close. Read somewhere that AS's tend to attract them or vv/both.
I suspect I know one now, and I am just stunned at how brilliant the front they put up is. You would never see that if you weren't looking for it (and in the process considering yourself a little paranoid) but I can see that it's possible based on some of their actions. It seems it's a little more than just high intelligence and charm skills. I believe I have seen other odd things... like fast motor behaviors, shiny eyes. Seems like a hell of a confidence under that too.
One thing that I wonder, and it's definitely nothing I want, is how I was able to survive them, being all people naive and dumb in some respects. I think something intuitively/reflexively in me interfered with dealings. Not sure though. Maybe not. That is why I was asking if they ever really like people beyond what they can get from them. Are they ever relatively merciful, and don't take everything though they want or leave when they can still have fun and are not bored. I don't think they do this.
All very interesting. Hell of a thing to become aware of suddenly, lol. It's amazing.
Why is it that everyone that doesn't claim to be a sociopath has come into contact with at least one and now come to this blog for answers?
ReplyDeleteDo sociopaths just grow on trees? Are they the munchkins in OZ or something else that is just as ludicrous to compare to the probability that you keep running into them?
What gives?
Any why would you seek insight from them?
ReplyDeleteChances are they'd just manipulate you by saying something so subtle that you don't detect it and they get further into your head and fuck with you some more.
Well, there are a lot of them, between 1-4% of the population. They tend to latch on to certain types of people, including AS's.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you are right about further manipulation, but i think once you know what they are, it's not likely. I am just curious of how they answer. If you havn't been through certain things, it probably makes little sense.
Are they ever relatively merciful, and don't take everything though they want or leave when they can still have fun and are not bored.
ReplyDeleteOf course I can’t speak for anyone other than myself, but this is certainly possible for me, at least insofar as my actions are concerned, though the motivation is still essentially based on their usefulness to me. I learned a long time ago that it is usually beneficial to have a network of helpful people that can be easily manipulated into helping my social credibility and validating my wonderful character to prey as needed.
The thing is that I am fully aware that if I spend too much time around anyone it is only a matter of time before I start screwing with them in one way or another, so the solution was rather simple: I just don’t spend too much time around any single group of people. Instead I limit my steady exposure to any particular group of people to brief and sporadic periods and then move on to another group and do the same.
Little ploys like getting to know someone, having a few great nights out, and then finding some opportunity to ingratiate them to me (some little favor, a few bucks here or there, some little help with this or that); and then I just go away and spend my time with a completely separate group of people in a different scene altogether. The result is that these people I do these little ploys to build it up in their own minds into much more than it really was, and in the end I have a whole series of people who genuinely consider me a good friend and can be used to reaffirm what I great person I am.
Its completely manipulative and self serving, but what they don’t know won’t hurt them. It is so much easier to hunt when you walk into a bar or club and ten people in the room know you and come up and chat and buy you a beer. The people that provide this service to me are not really prey in that I usually avoid messing up those relationships by keeping away, they’re just stage props and I treat them as you described it: ”don't take everything though they want or leave when they can still have fun”
They serve a great role and ultimately, should push come to shove and I find myself in some dire situation, can be used more thoroughly if need be. For me personally, my sadistic streak is all tied into sex and I’m a bit of a pervert, so more often than not I tend to sexualize my prey, and being more straight than otherwise, that means I tend to zero in on women as prey. Whereas both men and women make great stage props as described above.
So yes, I believe it is completely possible for a sociopath to have relationships with people that do not result in total exploitation, the real key is just to not spend too much time around them and at the same time charm them into thinking very highly of me. When real prey falls into this world she is completely and utterly lost because so many perfectly normal people are there to attest that I am a great guy, so if there is something wrong, it must be with her. This coupled with my own mind and confidence games tend to really confuse and disorient them very well…
I am away from that for the time being as I have been traveling extensively for the last year or so (and building up the beginning a new network of stage props), but even now if I go back to my city in the States, I have no doubt whatsoever there are a dozen places I can go and be welcomed by all sorts of people. I guess I think of it as having minions or helpers and it certainly makes things easier. As far as they are concerned we’re all good, so there is no real harm done at all.
Sociopaths aren't so bad, especially not if you're an aspie. I cope with my naivety and eagerness to help by examining anything I feel compelled to do, for any reason, to make sure it's in my best interest. If it's not, I don't do it, and if it involves other people, I come up with a believable lie involving feelings, principles, logic, whatever the situation calls for.
ReplyDeleteEmpaths believe it no problem, and sociopaths are baffled, because you show no signs of recognizing their game, yet for some reason you aren't behaving as expected. Unless they've known you for a long time, they have no idea why you really decided not to do whatever you were supposed to, because you just lied in a way that's consistent with your personality.
So, being manipulated becomes largely irrelevant. They're focusing on working your emotions, and you're examining the situation rationally while presenting a semi-emotional facade. They can't get in your face about being paranoid, because you never accuse them of anything, (nor do you really care), and really... well, unless they know exactly what you're really doing, and they're better at thinking everything through and coming up with a plan that appears to be in your best interest, there's not much they can do to directly harm you.
Defamation, etc, would all still work, but then it's only a matter of time before you find out what they're up to and react. I react pretty badly, personally, with a habit of paying people back threefold. You key my car, I take a baseball bat to yours. You defame me, and all the dirty little secrets I've collected about you over the years subtly start to surface, embellished enough to make it string more than it should, but not enough to make it less believable. That sort of mentality.
Seems to work well for me.
I've had a lot of pleasant relationships with sociopaths.
In fact, they usually wind up being more honest with me about how they see the world, what they want etc. I think they appreciate the fact that I just don't care, and that I'm happy to offer advice for their schemes. (I just want to see if it will work... a product of my curiosity)
Thanks for the honest answer Dionysus.
ReplyDeleteThat's interesting Aspie #2. I think I can relate to some of that. I'm pretty vengeful too if wronged, and can be a little devious.
Well, I'm really not that vengeful. I don't care so much about making them suffer because of what they've done, I just tend to get lost in the fun of finding a way to do it and seeing if it works. Sort of like building and executing a strategy in chess. It's just a delight, especially when it all goes according to plan. Then I go on living like it never happened. If they do it again, so do I. If they don't, I treat them well.
ReplyDeleteI guess I take it as a challenge, more than anything. An invitation to play. lol it's weird, but it is what it is.
So, being manipulated becomes largely irrelevant. They're focusing on working your emotions, and you're examining the situation rationally while presenting a semi-emotional facade.
ReplyDeleteI am not very familiar with the whole AS thing, and what I know just comes from some online reading. However, assuming the symptoms and characteristics described are accurate, I am pretty sure I've seduced a few aspies before, the methodology just differs a bit.
Assuming the person I am thinking of was really an aspie, my first was in high school and she certainly seems to fit the description. The difference is that to seduce them you appeal their mind first and the emotions follow, as opposed to the inverse which is more common. The prerequisites were: a) she knew there was something wrong with her and it made her insecure and alienated; b) she believed I was smart enough that my advice should be taken seriously and believed I wanted to help her; and c) I played her insecurities, but in a positive confidence-building way as opposed to a derogatory confidence-sapping way.
I encouraged her, more rationally than anything else, to just ignore her insecurities and by pointing out all the tell-tale signs of insecurities in others, even the most popular kids. The idea worked reasonably well, first she became my friend and then her emotions caught up. I was really young at the time and much less refined than I am now and it ended horribly for her, but was a helpful experience for me. I know there have been some other cases as well where this differing methodology worked better, but I am not sure they were really aspies.
I am a little more emotional thinking I guess. I do have the rigid moral code thing happening but on the other hand I enjoy strategizing and finding ways to win, especially in very tough situations, the tougher the better. Part of my motivation to do this can be from emotions/feelings and I guess some curiosity. I connect emotionally the most to music. I don't think I would want to keep any socios as friends around me. I prefer kind and true people. No offense to socios intended or anything.
ReplyDeleteI like thinking back on earlier helpful experiences, but it is a bit odd as I have a very selective memory. I remember that aspie girl quite well compared to most things at that time. She was quite cute, but a total social moron and we took the same school bus which is how we met. She was one of my first experiments on how to use confidence building as means of seduction as opposed to sheer charm. She was also the first time I had to pull out all the stops to coerce a woman into having an abortion. However, I really can't remember anything she ever said, not even what her voice sounded like. But, I know she was quite lovely when she cried and had really cute little squeek when she did so. Its odd what I remember and what I don't.
ReplyDeleteDionysus, my strategy involves removing emotions toward and opinions about people from the decision making process. Regardless of my feelings, if I were compelled to do something, I would first decide what potential impact it could have on my life. As previously stated, you would be focused on manipulating the emotions, while I would be looking at the potential impact of my choices.
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly the mentality I would expect from a sociopath, and exactly the mentality that would fail.
Dionysus, my strategy involves removing emotions toward and opinions about people from the decision making process.
ReplyDeleteVery clever and it certainly seems like a good survival strategy to me. As noted above, predators - including myself - are usually opportunistic and go after the easiest target available, so you would probably be too much trouble. Luckily you're an exception to the rule, not the norm, so there is plenty of prey dancing around the fringes of the herd awaiting my company. :)
Here is an interesting link with a link to a free pdf file of the mask of sanity:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
The whole idea of my commenting here was something of an experiment. I am nowhere near stupid enough to share the way I really think with anyone in the real world and have no interest whatsoever in "coming out" as that wouldn't be very helpful in any respect.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, I am fully aware that I am a pathological liar and that my entire life and absolutely all of my interactions with people are lies or built upon lies. I sort of romanticize this by thinking of it more as acting, and I am one hell of an actor. So the idea here was to say what I really think publicly, or to be honest, as it were. The thinking was that perhaps this would be sort of a relief, or at least something new and interesting to do.
However, my reaction is not what I thought it would be. First, there is certainly no sense of relief at all, in fact quite the opposite is true. I feel a little paranoid that some of what I've written could some how be connected to me in the real world. Literally I started thinking about whether or not my roommates here could somehow see what I was writing or if my ISP kept a log of all correspondence, or how close my IP number is to associating things I've written with me personally.
Now what the fuck is that? I am not a paranoid person at all, in any respect. In fact I like to mess with people once I realize I am being watched or spied upon. However, I don't think there is any denying that those reactions described above are irrationally paranoid and patently absurd. So, wtf? Is it some sort of neurological response to being honest in any way? Would being honest mean a life of irrational paranoia? Can a person be specifically designed in such a way that honesty is anathema?
That weird side effect notwithstanding, after going back and reading what I wrote earlier, it is also odd because it seems, or perhaps "feels", like it is just another one of my characters as opposed to anything profoundly honest or personal. Everything I wrote was true and accurately represents how I see the world, but despite that truth it just seems like the scripted lines of yet another of my characters. So much for the whole Freudian nonsense about releasing suppressed truths.
All of the above notwithstanding, I have to admit that I enjoyed writing that stuff last night, just as I seem to be enjoying writing this now. So perhaps it is the act of writing what I am thinking that I enjoy and then just consider the consequences of doing so as an annoying afterthought of no great merit or interest.
I'll think I'll stick around a bit longer and continue the experiment.
A little paranoia's healthy for 'ya. There are S's out there giving advice and giving others a glimpse into how they think. They do this I feel because it strokes their ego and also because it's fun to play with a group and power structure and boundaries. And to bash a few who are clueless or non S crappy people.
ReplyDeleteThe goal and functioning of S is always manipulation and manipulative because that is the way they think and are. They often look for lets call it weakness and then develop a communication that calls it out so then they can work on it. They figure this out using various natural algorithms. And this can be applied to anything because there is always a motivation or reason behind a behavior. Possibly a complex of reasons of various strengths and vulnerabilities. But it is more than that though. They have unique to them abilities which make it particularly tough dealing with them. They have weaknesses too. The best thing to do is simple as abc and that is to be polite and get away.
Bringer of Madness (Dionysus):
ReplyDeleteFirst of all I have enjoyed reading your comments.
Second, I wanted to add a thought on what you said here:
“So the idea here was to say what I really think publicly, or to be honest, as it were. The thinking was that perhaps this would be sort of a relief, or at least something new and interesting to do.
However, my reaction is not what I thought it would be…”
I did a personal development experiment six years ago inspired by the “Radical Honesty” concept. For about two weeks, I decided to be completely honest with the people in my personal life. I confessed a few things I thought I never would to them. I expected the same the same rush of relief you did. Although I did not become paranoid, what I did experience was absolutely nothing. I felt no relief, no lightness, no nothing. I was nonplussed. Fortunately, it didn’t cost me anything at the time and I promptly went back to keeping my own counsel. This was long before I considered that I might be a wee bit sociopathic and that therefore my brain responds differently to these things at a fundamental level. (I’m not a fan of these particular labels but what are you going to do?) Had I known then what I know now about myself I never would have done it. But you live and you learn.
Anyway, good stuff you’re sharing.
One psychologist states that the biggest weakness of S is his inability to see or consider in a logical way future consequences beyond short term focused manipulations. Because he has no empathy, he cannot imagine future time in the same way as normals because he has no empathic connection with humans. A good part of most normals existence is in connecting with humans and it acts as an anchor. This is a huge weakness because it leads to very sloppy behavior.
ReplyDeleteYou could be right Aspie. Of course, I don’t consider myself pathological, which might explain why that wouldn’t apply to me. (You weren’t addressing me in any event, but I thought I’d go ahead and respond since I was still online.) In the anecdote above, I was unable to predict my own emotional response to my honesty experiment because I was under the mistaken impression that I was a normal. I was wrong. I didn’t know at the time just how wrong I was. To reiterate, had I known then what I know now, I could have easily predicted that I would not feel anything positive as a result of any misguided notions about honesty. That’s why accurate self understanding is so important. The best personality theories allow one to both explain and predict (imperfectly to be sure) future behavior. The “bad” personality theories are the opposite. I was laboring under a “bad” personality theory about myself at the time of my experiment, hence the inaccurate prediction.
ReplyDeleteAs the person who called empaths who stay with socios "jackasses," I stand by my opionion. Because my socio friend and I were on different coasts for much of the 20 years I knew him, I was unaware of his little problem. When I became his roommate and he pulled his shit on me, I thought to myself, "You just fucked with the WRONG person." Little does he know the IRS is going to be investigating him real soon, and if he can't pay up he'll do time. Do I feel guilty? A bit, for a split second, and then I smile when I picture myself laughing all the way to the bank. Socios seem to brag in this forum about fucking people over, but don't think you may not meet your match someday. If my friend hadn't used me, I never would have been such an asshole to him. What comes around does go around, eventually.
ReplyDeleteIt just seems to me you are taking your anger at the S partially out on their victims. Had this been someone you had been physically attracted to, you might feel differently. But I can understand the anger.
ReplyDeleteI've read that what you are doing is very effective at throwing a wrench in the works so to speak.
If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a sociopath! :-P
ReplyDeleteHi Daniel,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comments.
I have, now and then, tried to be completely honest with people in real life a few times in the past as well, though not over a set time period or with everyone. Instead it was a very individual thing between me and another. In one instance it was with the person that I have – and still do – consider my “best friend” or at least my longest held friend (we’ve known each other for over twenty years) and I am fairly confident he is just as much a sociopath as I am, though he has a different style and methodology. That was a complete disaster, because it became crystal clear the second I opened my mouth that it was a total mistake. I could actually see the derision and contempt in his eyes, it was very much the same look I would give someone who did the same to me (except prey, of course, but that is different).
The weird result of this was that afterwards he just went away without saying or doing anything, but giving the impression that our association had lost its usefulness to him. I, on the other hand, had a compulsion to show him that I hadn’t lost my edge and went more or less on a spree among the people that associated with both of us causing as much damage and chaos as I could. My little rampage was really quite obnoxious even by my own standards, but also a lot of fun too. It seemed to have worked, as my friend never mentioned my little momentary lapse again and ever since we’ve gotten on very much the same as we always have.
In another instance, it was not meant so much as an experiment on myself, but was basically a desperate effort to drive someone away that had gotten far too attached. It was one of the few times when even with all my inherent depravity I couldn’t chase someone away. At the beginning it was the same as it usually goes and I just took her for all she was worth and she gave it all up, anything I wanted, everything. All I wanted her for was some money and sex and she gave both up freely and that should have been the end of it. I switched into the normal “chase away mode” and became extremely domineering forcing her to humiliate and demean herself in better and better ways. Most people eventually reach a breaking point and run away and that is what I wanted, but she wouldn’t leave.
It got really bad because I had already made up my mind to the idea that I wasn’t going to be the one to back down, so the only option she had was to leave (or, I suppose, kill me). But she just wouldn’t leave. After a couple months of this, I sat her down and was completely honest with her and detailed our entire relationship from the very beginning as I saw it and as I thought about it. Whatever she thought about this, it wasn’t enough to make her leave. It ended up in some sort of really weird S&M fantasy situation: she lost her job because I told her if she left she wouldn’t get back in; she was out of contact with all her friends and family for months because I demanded if she was going to stay she could only think about me, and so on. Still she wouldn’t leave.
Without going into detail, she actually won, I left; but it cost her virtually her entire life and any possible shred of pride or self-respect she could have had. She really endured things that frankly very few people live to tell about, but she did it all willingly; all she had to do at any point was leave and I made sure to reemphasize that point constantly, but she just wouldn’t do it. I learned a lot from this experience and it was one of those “life changing” ones in that it taught me I could do more than I had previously thought, that I get excited by things I had never even considered before and that sometimes taking things to extremes can be seriously exhilarating.
Aspie: ”There are S's out there giving advice and giving others a glimpse into how they think. They do this I feel because it strokes their ego…”
ReplyDeleteI think you’re right about that, I definitely have an inclination to brag, but of course I can’t really brag to anyone in the real world, so perhaps that is what I’m getting out of this.
Daniel: ”That’s why accurate self understanding is so important.”
I couldn’t agree more. I like myself and I like how I am, but I would like to understand it all a bit better. Call it a personal fetish, I’d like to have a better understanding of how I work. However, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that I can’t be honest with real people, so I have to work it out myself.
Anonymous: ”What comes around does go around, eventually.”
If one honestly subscribed to that idea (I do not), then an obvious antidote is to inflict so much harm that when the payback comes you cannot possibly survive it, so you get out of the payback through death. :)
The inuit didn't mess around.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ranprieur.com/readings/americanpsycho.html
No, no they don't. Trust me, I live in AK.
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ReplyDelete"When you start to think wholesale humanity, you lose the ingredients that make people human. It doesn’t matter if you genetically change skin color or if you genetically impose empathy and a conscience, you by default become less human."
ReplyDeleteThat is an interesting way to put it.
Kudos for coming up with that "Joy of Cooking by Hannibal Dahmer" type of metaphor.
speech impediments as well
ReplyDeletetough one
(Saa) amazing. ur quite like my brother. however he is not a sociopath...he has spent too many years obsessing with how people perceive him, so much so that he has gotten sloppy with his walter mitty lies and exaggerations. he has been in the same job in the same town too long, run out of women to seduce and have 2 year drama riddled relationships with, let alone one night stands. now he is 39 and panicked, losing his looks, and racking his brains as to why the deeply disturbing disquiet in his heart, yet he knows he has never really pushed his abilities (he could have been a writer but never wanted to risk failing so chose the bar-trade instead). such gross underachievment made for an easy life, a life of showy excesses, coke, chicks and a LOT of games and verbalised bulls*it.
ReplyDeletebut now he is tired, empty, hungry, full, bored and uncomfortable. the wild entertainer he used to love being irriates him, in fact everything has lost his flavour, and being human, generous and innately kind and empathic (he tried to hide these sides from people and appear masterful and cold) the horrors of where to go next have him gripped and confused. i dont know what to say to him. he has enough awareness but a lot more refusal to just stop, save and dig up some old dreams he has long buried in scorn and apathy. S i love you, cop on to urself!