A frequent question I get is how can sociopaths be good? Why would sociopaths choose to "do the right thing" if they don't feel the emotion "guilt" like everyone else does?
We all use short cuts to make decisions. It would be impossible for us to make a fully informed, reasoned decision every time such a decision was necessary. Empaths use emotional shortcuts, sociopaths don't/can't, so we come up with some other shortcut. A lot of sociopaths use shortcuts like "anything goes," or "I am only in it for me," but I have also met/talked to many sociopaths who have a more "principled" approach to life. I have met sociopaths who are utilitarian, a la Jeremy Bentham, or even Rawlsian. Some of my readers use religious codes to guide their actions. I use the shortcut of economic efficiency, gap-filled by Judeo-Christian ethics, which for me acts like a mental/emotional exercise regime -- monotonous drudgery, but ultimately good for mental/emotional health. The one thing that sociopath "codes" tend to have in common is that they don't fully map with prevailing social norms.
To my eyes, normal people lack a certain consistency in their sense of right and wrong. I think the American political parties are a good example of this. Why is the christian right against helping poor people? How can big government square with a desire to maximize individual freedoms? I have often wondered why people choose to be "conservative" or "liberal" rather than libertarian or socialist. My mind can't reconcile the seeming inconsistencies like other people's minds do, apparently.
One sort of bad thing about the sociopath's "code" compared to the empaths' is that the empath really drinks the Kool-Aid and believes that their way of life is "right," and has intrinsic meaning and purpose. Sociopaths get no such benefit from our codes, which is why our coping methods for dealing with the world, with all its uncertainties and pointlessness, are not always adequate to keep the darkness out of our minds and hearts.
We all use short cuts to make decisions. It would be impossible for us to make a fully informed, reasoned decision every time such a decision was necessary. Empaths use emotional shortcuts, sociopaths don't/can't, so we come up with some other shortcut. A lot of sociopaths use shortcuts like "anything goes," or "I am only in it for me," but I have also met/talked to many sociopaths who have a more "principled" approach to life. I have met sociopaths who are utilitarian, a la Jeremy Bentham, or even Rawlsian. Some of my readers use religious codes to guide their actions. I use the shortcut of economic efficiency, gap-filled by Judeo-Christian ethics, which for me acts like a mental/emotional exercise regime -- monotonous drudgery, but ultimately good for mental/emotional health. The one thing that sociopath "codes" tend to have in common is that they don't fully map with prevailing social norms.
To my eyes, normal people lack a certain consistency in their sense of right and wrong. I think the American political parties are a good example of this. Why is the christian right against helping poor people? How can big government square with a desire to maximize individual freedoms? I have often wondered why people choose to be "conservative" or "liberal" rather than libertarian or socialist. My mind can't reconcile the seeming inconsistencies like other people's minds do, apparently.
One sort of bad thing about the sociopath's "code" compared to the empaths' is that the empath really drinks the Kool-Aid and believes that their way of life is "right," and has intrinsic meaning and purpose. Sociopaths get no such benefit from our codes, which is why our coping methods for dealing with the world, with all its uncertainties and pointlessness, are not always adequate to keep the darkness out of our minds and hearts.
good post ME.... fact is i have been working on my own 'code' for lack of a better word, it helps me know my limits and keep my actions/reactions in check...
ReplyDeletei am not sure what i think of the empaths way of reasoning, it seems very confused to me. i was having a discussion last night that leads me to believe that empaths often use 'truth' and their own 'guilt' as one of the most uncaring forms of torture.
My partner asked me if i would tell her/him if i cheated on them, i said that i would if it was something that truly threatened our relationship, if it wasn't i would not. i say that telling someone that they have been betrayed simply because one feels guilty is insanely self centered.
Totally agree. I think if you cheat on someone physically but still love them all the same, then the only real problem is that the social norm says all cheating is bad and wrong. I don't know. It's something a lot of people can't understand, but for me it just makes perfect sense.
DeleteMy question is, why do sociopaths cheat? Is it because they are bored, or not having enough sex? If their partner had sex with them enough than would they not cheat?
DeleteThe boy I am currently dating admitted to me only several weeks after we started that he was a sociopath and could not have deep emotions, but he said he can feel anxious, and happy, and he can like. Are there different extremes of sociopathy?
I don't "cheat" .... I simply take opportunities to enjoy other experiences. These are usually with women, often with men, and sometimes both. I seem to remember that I may have felt guilt the first time I did it (well over 30 years ago) but am not sure if I tricked myself into feeling guilty because I though I should
DeleteIt is nothing to do with boredom, or not having enough sex (although, for me, there is no such thing as "enough sex"). I gain pleasure from giving others pleasure - perhaps enjoying their orgasm as much as my own.
Over the years I have occasionally met like-minded people and relish the prospect ofsex with them without any emotional attachment whatsoever
i am a sociopath, and i am in a relationship, i have been for almost 6 mouths. My boyfriend means a lot to me but i can't be loyal.. i just don't feel bad. is this normal? am i just a typical sociopath? I don't understand why either my boyfriend gives me all i want but i just do what i want, i promised him i would stop but the thing is, i don't want to i just can't ..
Delete100% agree.
DeleteCheating can be a simple manifestation of our genetic "selfish genes", As natural as adding spice to food.
The act of actually telling your significant other about it is ridiculously cruel to them; I personally could not fathom the monumental force of self-hating guilt it would take to do such a thing.
I function adequately well, through use of a Code. My behaviours are also helped along by the acting classes I took all throughout elementary & middle school.
Delete1. Never EVER tell anyone.
2. If you get violent urges, find a non-human target to take them out on.
3. Don't lie, unless someone else benefits from it.
4. If you meet another, be discreet, unless you get a confession.
5. Don't kill. And that means anything. Injuring, maiming? That's fine.
6. Above all else, don't get caught. At anything.
I suppose the obvious thing is not to cheat in the first place and then you do not have to lie.
DeleteDo not do anything that you feel you might have to lie about and you will not go wrong. Also never lie or do anything that might be considered wrong. It might seem difficult and strange at first but you will find out stuff that will make it worth the effort. You must keep this behaviour secret though, you must not tell anyone that you have become perfectly honest. What you eventually find out is much more interesting than cheating or sex.
In regards to the political comment on the left-right paradigm. For a very long time I thought about that puzzle as well until I finally figured it out.
DeleteThe left and right political parties are social constructs used to manipulate people based on emotions. They are engineered that way for that exact purpose.
Governing is all about manipulation, and those with power in the world are psychopaths. The left-right serves as a divide and conquer mechanism. It could not occur naturally.
Democracy itself in its current form is nothing but an illusion of choice. The puppet masters manipulate the herd.
That's probably one of my triggers - when people overestimate what they can get.
DeleteThe reason I have never cheated and never will is because not many people could deal with me and my frustration (at least until I learn to control it somewhat better, still working on that), and I'm lucky to get one person to stick with me through the crap I create just because my mind gets bored.
Why would you fuck something up if chances are it's the only good thing you'll get?
Then again, because of my lack of impulse control, I am rather asocial. In terms of David Lykken's categorization of sociopaths, I'm an alienated disempathetic type with a lean towards the alienated hostile type as well.
It's quite interesting to see the subtypes and which 'categories' you fit into.
Empaths have all these personality tests to see what they're like but they don't as much apply to sociopaths I find.
In case anyone would like to read the subtyping, link is as follows
http://www.bandbacktogether.com/sociopathy-resources/
If I choose to steal your wallet, it has been stolen, regardless if you know I took it or not. Maybe if your lucky, I will even help you look for it...while it is secretly in my pocket. I would consider telling you that I stole your wallet, but I don't want to hurt you. That would be selfish.
DeleteWhat you sociopaths are missing...what goes completely over your heads, is a sense of "honor". By cheating, you have already made your first selfish decision, a choice to put yourself first, a choice to abuse their trust in you. You know if they find out they might be devastated, but you simply do not care. Your second selfish choice is to consciously deny or lie about the cheating. To say the lie it's to protect them from harm is a fallacy. You have already hurt them, they just don't know it yet. For some reason a sociopath rationalizes that if their behavior is done in secret, then it is acceptable. The point is, you shouldn't be making decisions based on whether or not a person is looking over your shoulder. "Getting away with it" doesn't equal OK. And lying makes it worse. This is where a normal person experiences something called "guilt", another emotion that eludes a sociopath.
Re-read my first paragraph again..."my stolen wallet example" After that, re-read over all the other comments left by the sociopaths. You will notice one binding similarity between all of them. The sociopath always puts themselves first.
I function adequately well, through use of a Code. My behaviours are also helped along by the acting classes I took all throughout elementary & middle school.
Delete1. Never EVER tell anyone.
2. If you get violent urges, find a non-human target to take them out on.
3. Don't lie, unless someone else benefits from it.
4. If you meet another, be discreet, unless you get a confession.
5. Don't kill. And that means anything. Injuring, maiming? That's fine.
6. Above all else, don't get caught. At anything
Love it!!! Great code xD
So, I'm sure nobody here REALLY cares about this, but if you're here, and your a socio, and you feel you want/need some semblance of a code, try mine and see how it works for you:
Logic. Cold hard logic. Computers run on it, the power grid, evolution.... Its a tried and true code for so many things. Basically: I am here, I want to go there, what is the most logical route to get my way? What/who do I need to move, manipulate, remove from my path to get where/what I want?
Most (I guess you would say normal) people look at me like I'm crazy or evil when I say this, but logic is beautiful. Logic doesn't worry about the worries or insecurities, or petty, frivolous emotions of dumber people. It allows me to get things done, the way I want them, the way they SHOULD be done. The. way. the. makes. sense.
"i say that telling someone that they have been betrayed simply because one feels guilty is insanely self centered"
ReplyDeleteYOU SELFISH PRICK.
Do you even understand anything? You complete moron!
Deletejustabadpenny happens to be right about this. (Am I a sociopath???)
DeleteI view myself as as an extreme empath. I only seem to feel other people's pain and happiness, and have nothing left for me (which is why I think I'm chronically depressed). I also feel such extreme guilt & shame when I cause someone even the slightest hurt, that I find it hard to interact with anyone.
DeleteAnd yet...I totally agree with justabadpenny, as far as someone telling their partner they've been betrayed in order to purge themselves of guilt being self-centered goes. Actually I don't really get why 'cheating' is such a terrible betrayal in the first place, so maybe that's it (seriously - It's been scientifically proven that the lust thing lasts for max. 2 years. 'Love' then just becomes about caring & friendship).
Monogamy is frustrating for everyone and anyone who claims otherwise is full of shit (although i cant speak for the sociopaths, i have absolutely no idea how they feel). So why, other than from a Christian-repression-life-is-about-denial perspective is it so terrible to sleep around? It would make your partner a better lover. It would stop them resenting you. And if they found someone they preferred, why would you want to chain them to you?
I'm female & have a typically lower sex drive than a guy. I'm in no way trying to justify a need to cheat. And i have never cheated but (kinda like the sociopathic blogger's constructed code) that's only because I'm following a social code, and not a personal moral one. If someone can explain to me why cheating is so terrible (in a logical reasoned way, and not one that relies on some religious-it's-just-bad-weak-and-just-have-faith-in-that-type argument) please enlighten me, I'm all ears.
I completely agree. It is selfish to tell someone you have cheated on them. Why? To appease your own guilt? When clearly it is just going to make the other person feel miserable, betrayed, insecure?
DeleteTo Joss, Cheating on someone who you are in a "loving" relationship with destroys the trust that person had for you. It hurts them deeply and makes them feel inadequate. depending on the use, or lack of use of protection, it could spread sexually transmitted disease to your partner. I can't believe I'm even explaining this! Ever had it done to you? How did it feel? I agree with the others that you shouldn't reveal something to relieve your own guilt at the expense of the victim, so how about don't do it in the first place because hurting someone you love is wrong!
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteLOL @ Anon @ 3:18!!!!!!
DeleteMike Davis,
DeleteYou clearly didn't under stand Joss's question. You need to either be extremely empathic or sociopath to understand.
I truly believe those are one in the same cause both are very sensitive if rules are broken. In the crazy f'ed up mind
wait a minute, i am really getting confused now. i thought bottom line was that all sociopaths were pricks. i mean if you really have a moral code, than what separates any of us from y'all.
ReplyDeleteand secondly, i've always felt guilt was bullshit, and i've always been very realistic about situations, but felt as bad penny above that if your really going to destroy someone and the point is kinda moot, they why go there.
flush all the labels, their all bullshit.
Missus,if I'm constantly being a prick how would that benefit me in anyway? I will do whatever that convenient me with the least risk and lash-backs.
DeleteMorality is subjective on its own, let alone for a sociopath. I would lie if I cheat not because of guilt, because if I can cover everything up with minimal chance of detection then I would do it for the convenience of it.
For me, life is a game of probability on me benefiting or losing, nothing more.
I'm going to try to explain myself. I'm from spain and my english isn’t really good, but I’m going to try this anyway. Scientist have demonstrated that even a baby, understand the differences between wrong and right, and what it is more important, they care. I’m an atheist, a terrible word in America, but completely harmless in Europe. And yes, I don’t think there’s such a thing as a superior guide that shows what the right thing to do is. But moral, is much more complicated than a way to see things is our own advantage; is an extraordinary complexity construction that emerge from brain, his capacity to feel empathy, care, and the difference necessities of every moment in history. Empathy is one of the principles pillars of moral, the way of the brain for communicate with a human been about another human been (or animal) and their feelings, and thanks to this, such think as a society can exist. Society have to tend, I’m not saying it is exactly that, but have to tend to honesty, the right and the ability of people to care about the consequences of their acts. This society is actually working, not because sociopath, beside them. This society works because the capacity of 99% of people to understand and CARE about the consequences of their actions in others, and not only about himself. And the only reason because sociopath can exist and prosper, is because the majority of people understands this, and cares about this. ¿Do you really want subjective moral world? ¡I think is a great idea!, I would love to see all the sociopath in their own close country, cheating, steeling, hurting each other, even their family members, without known who to trust in, been selfish and predators, without caring about anyone except themselves, and, finally, devouring each other. The reason because we only have 1% of sociopath, is because a biggest number of them, probably, would destroy the system. They are contrary to society, they can’t sustain a society by they own, and what is more important, they use the values and norms, they need this constructions, but they just used them to their own advantage. Morality is to much more than a subjective construction, is NECESSARY, and is PURE DARWIN. You need to thanks to morality.
DeleteWell, i want to make a point about my own comentary, im am not saying that all sociopath are bad people, i havent explain my self propely. We know they tend, more than "normal" people, to some kind of inmoral behaviour, or even criminal behaviour. But not all of them. What i want to express, is that sociopath have not the hability to create a moral code by their own, the way they see the world, and the others, is in a deep contradiction with the correct working of a society. They need to be explain this codes, because they can't feel it and intuit it, genuinely.
DeleteI'm just guessing here since I'm an empath, but I imagine a sociopath could just offload the interpretation of morality off to another part of their brain that does function effectively. For instance, though a sociopath lacks the drive of guilt as a punishment, they can use a different drive to discourage non-ethical behavior, like a sense of perfectionism or pride, or just challenge. Sociopaths can still develop sense of identity without morality, and identity will encourage or discourage behaviors as well.
DeleteUltimately, empathy is just a pro-social piece of hardware in the brain. I like helping people, and I wouldn't give that up for anything, but ultimately, it really isn't any more meaningful than any other drive to anyone but me.
Sociopaths are not unanimously pricks. Though some may be and all have the capacity to do so. We do not tell nor admit socially unaccetable behaviour (such as cheating) because there is no perceivable personel benefit. We validate this or rather we explain it by saying that it does not do any good for our partner to do admit cheating. We recognize the consequences and the strife associated with the truth and therefor we logically avoid it. Without the concept of guilt and the ideas of inherent evil lingering in our minds- we continue on trouble free.
DeleteI believe the difference here would be doing something because you know it's supposed to be wrong and it hurts someone and actually feeling someone's pain. Someone can say I hurt them, and I understand that they are upset; I see it. But I don't actually feel that they are upset or that I should feel bad too.
ReplyDeletea selfish sociopath no way
DeleteWhat's the difference between feeling the other person being upset and reecognizing/observing/understanding that they are upset?
DeleteAnd if you make the choice that you are going to help to make up for it what's the difference between that and feeling that you should feel bad?
Does me not seeing any difference between these things suggest that I'm really a sociopath?
The difference is that where I can see you are in pain, that pain carries no weight. I don't care. Seeing that pain in someone else is as arbitrary as seeing a cloud or a rock.
Delete"My partner asked me if i would tell her/him if i cheated on them, i said that i would if it was something that truly threatened our relationship, if it wasn't i would not. i say that telling someone that they have been betrayed simply because one feels guilty is insanely self centered."
ReplyDeleteI think what really matters is that you are communicating I am going to assume truthfully and they can take it or leave it. I can see in a way that you are acting almost compassionately by not telling them every time you have sex with someone because it would probably bother them and create disharmony. And, if it is meant honestly, you will tell them if it means you may leave them, the relationship may change etc, then I don't see any problem.
Though I imagine another concern could be catching something so if they were smart they would want you to agree to use some form of protection, though I imagine you would also want to too.
Interesting. I suppose if I had been cheated on, I would want to know. a)As aspie pointed out, there are far too many diseases and they are all too easy to catch. b)I, personally, do not cheat because I have self-control and expect the same from the other person. However, if I were to cheat, why would I incriminate myself? The other person would cease to trust me, my honesty being the cause. Better to ease unconfirmed suspicion and not burn bridges you may have yet to cross.
ReplyDeleteI wont be sleeping with anyone without telling her for sure, my point was simply that i see the 'i am gonna tell you the truth when all it will do is hurt you cause i feel guilty' as a hugely selfish thing?
ReplyDeletei just dont get hurting people for no reason, i see perfectly doing it for a reason. it sure as hell doesnt serve my best intrest to betray the few people that truly trust me.
i am one of the luckiest sociopaths around i have a wife that knows.... well she knows everything and by some stroke of luck she tries very hard to understand. she also happens to be the one person that i have cared more about than i do myself at times, but that is a long story i guess.
You don't fit the profile of a Sociopath. Do more self-searching. Your post is punctuated with guilt for hurting people and empathy for others.
DeleteThe profile of a sociopath is incorrect. Remember it is a limited range of emotions. The popularized version feels nothing. In truth there are emotions, the are just muted. Involuntarily to a point but largely voluntarily after that. Psychopaths are born this way, sociopaths aren't always and that's important, because even if we cant feel in full force, many of us can remember that we did at some point. And also it's hard to explain but i understand what this guy means when he says he cared about his wife more than himself, we aren't self oriented per-se, we are goal oriented. Remember that socio and psychopaths sometimes hurt themselves to achieve their goal so it cant be that simple as being self oriented. If this guy changed his focus to his wife momentarily because his life was best served by keeping her in it....than that's the logical move.
Delete"i just dont get hurting people for no reason, i see perfectly doing it for a reason"
ReplyDeletewhat could be a reason you would do it?
They could have something I want/need, and the best/only way to get it could involve hurting that person.
Deletebecause i want to.... usually they have done something to bring that on, only cause i am older wiser, more in control now.
ReplyDelete"usually they have done something to bring that on"
ReplyDeletelike what?
shit, that can very.... years ago they could have bumped into me.... today i would say i have been able to keep from causing serious harm even when they have done things that would push most people over the edge... today i think i am safe as long as i have goals and something i allow to keep me in my lines.. so i am not sure...
ReplyDeleteread my post on my blog...
maybe you are a good person or one who has become good in a way, it seems like such a lousy way to start
ReplyDeleteDespite my perceived intelligence I can lose.
I think it was chuck norris who said on any given day anyone can lose
Loyalty and gratitude are equal to love. Keep them close. Is that really true? is this something so uniquely S?
When I read what you wrote what comes to mind is some book written with the title "the hidden suffering of the sociopath" or similar
I think its kind of weird... many claim the S is a complete liar, but are they always? to me, and I could be a naive, dumb person, it seems like S;s are extremely honest, to the best of their knowledge, especially on an open forum
My sociopath friend is extemely honest when it comes to telling me about his sexual encounters with women. The stories serves as a high form of entertainment for him. He holds nothing back in sharing with me many of the bad things he has done from chilhood into adulthood.
DeleteHe would fumble when it comes to matters of the heart. He can barely relate to such.
In my experience, I don't normally lie unless I feel I need to. Lying isn't necessarily a compulsion so much as a useful tool. I'll admit using it for entertainment purposes, but not because I can't help myself. Empaths justify lying all the time (white lies, fibbing, pranks). But then, I'm not sure if I'm a socio. I never even considered the label until I wound up here. Not that I would mind really.
ReplyDeletei hear you.
ReplyDeleteaspie.... when i dont feel threatened, which isnt often i can be pretty honest, maybe to honest.
ReplyDeleteI can relate to that justabadpenny.
ReplyDeleteyeah me too
ReplyDeleteDo you find that there are "compulsions" though?
ReplyDeleteI'm in dire need of advice. I haven't developed a conscious as such, but I feel I' in a Jekyl / Hyde situation.
I love my girlfriend (well, fiance now), I properly adore her. I want to be her, I want to be inside her head. But as I can't do that I just want to spend my time loving her and making her feel loved, because I understand this feeling now.
However. I can't seem to control the thoughts of outright hurt and manipulation that are flooding in. I don't act on them because I know they would hurt my relationship and therefore make me unhappy. However, I really do feel like I'm losing control on what I do and don't do. If that makes sense. I have started to tell her really banal and pointless lies, just to "get it out of my system". Can anyone at all relate to this? It's hard to explain. Really fucking me off, too. I feel like I'm breaking out of myself, again. I have so much power over this girl, she put so much trust in me. What the hell.
I understand what you're saying. I've hurt people close to me for this reason too. The compulsion isn't to lie, as I understand it, so much as it is to be in control of the situation. You're the one creating and shaping her reality. It's a work of art, and lying is your paintbrush. I probably wasn't clear on that earlier.
ReplyDeleteWould it be fair to say that some people have a "good" nature (though can do bad) and some people have a "bad" nature (though can do good) and many people are kind of in between. One should "respect" everyone because we are all equally valid or else we wouldn't be?
ReplyDeleteaspie, I recommend reading Mill's On Liberty. It's a good gateway to understanding how things are "supposed" to work. It's an incredibly dry and dull read, but it does make points I believe you'll find interesting. Personally, I'm more of a fan of Machiavelli, but the conquest of power comes with much more deception, intrigue, and realism than the idea of "live and let live."
ReplyDeleteI'll take a look at that.
ReplyDeleteThanks C.
However, I really do feel like I'm losing control on what I do and don't do.
ReplyDeleteLosing control over your fondness for her or of your lies?
guilt is an emotion and socio's feel guilt a little differently. in my experience, its not so much guilt you feel, its more that you feel confronted and pissed off that you got caught so you quickly try to "fix" things either by pushing blame elsewhere or with more lies depending on the situation.
ReplyDeleteas for the situation with your fiance, what are you hoping to gain with your lies? you must not be completely fulfilled with this woman or maybe you don't feel completely secure in your control? either way, if you have something to gain, then do it, if not then wait it out.
people do things because they get something out of it. be aware of your needs and wants then do what you need to do to acheive this goal (like security in your control.)
my hub and i are both "empaths" and we (logically i think) agreed to the don't tell policy for 1 night stands. it is selfish - and foolish - to risk the stability of a good marriage because of one bad decision (and also logically, we both recognize that we are both capable of making bad decisions). now an affair is a different story...
ReplyDelete@anon - i don't always feel bad when someone claims i've hurt them in some way. my 5 year old loves to tell me i hurt his feelings when i don't give into his every whim. and while i can understand why he feels the way he does, i don't feel bad about doing my job.
i believe our ideas (culturally) about love are pretty wonky. the romantic ideal we see in movies, etc isn't real love. someone said that love is a verb, not a feeling.
i've known 2 sociopaths in my life (that i'm aware of!), and both of them lied just for fun. maybe it was control they were after, but i'm utterly baffled at some of the lies they told and what exactly they got out of them.
@aspie - i don't believe in "good" and "bad" people; it's too dependant on which moral or ethical code you're currently subscribing to. but if you view a culture as an organism, there are certainly parts that contribute to the survival of the organism and parts that feed off the organism like a cancer. cultural goals often determine what is seen as good or evil.
sociogirl - what most disturbs me about your description of a sociopath's experience of guilt is that it's exactly how you would expect a preschooler to react to being told he/she did something wrong. and, assuming i'm within the "normal" emotional range (which may not be true), i often feel that way when confronted. the difference being that i either go forward to accept responsibility (if i realize they are correct) or defend my position (if i still think i'm right).
-Laine
well Laine, that is exactly my point...i do not feel that way. i cant say i have ever felt guilt in the pure sense of the feeling. i pretty much whatever i have done to hurt you, youprobably deserved whether it be your stupidity, your weakness or just being at the wrong place at the wrong time. either way, you should have been more aware and maybe next time you will be wiser, which just ups the stakes of my game. it would now be more of a challenge. i don't kill people or anything like that, its all about mind f***ing someone that i completely enjoy.
ReplyDeleteI have an easy way of dealing with people like you. You NEVER get a second chance to lie to me. About anything. The one possible exception is if it really was in my best interest. But that has never happened. It makes my life so much simpler.
DeleteAfter dealing with shit people for a while, I just decided to stop doing that. And by the way, not all sociopaths / psychopaths are shit people.
The nice thing is that shit people almost always (I can not say always since I have not interacted with all shit people) reveal themselves very early on. Seriously shit just can not help stinking :-)
@sociogirl - i believe i understand what you're saying. i just think "normals" (whatever the hell that is) have the same *initial* reaction; guilt comes after reflection. i find the similarities interesting.
ReplyDeletecan you help me clarify something? do you dislike people in general and why? i'm a bit of a misanthrope myself, and i'm guessing for some of the same reasons - in general people are not very bright. but do you need those people around you to manipulate so you can feel powerful? at a hypothetical "sociopath's convention" would you stop manipulating or be happy to be surrounded by people as smart and aware as you (let's assume for the hypothetical that they are both)?
thanks for replying! i'm so fascinated by all this that i've been obsessing since i found the site.
-Laine
hmm...good question. i would say i do not hate people, i, in fact, have many people around me at all times. i hate to be alone....where is the fun in that? to the outsider, to those who know me, i am well liked and have many friends. i am a sweet girl that cares so much about everyone. one of my very best friends happens to be of the socio ranks and she is the only one i have ever let see part of me. and i do stress part. i can't let her completely see everything.
ReplyDelete@sociogirl...so do you "keep up appearances" just to keep yourself surrounded by potential victims (or current victims)? or are those people part of your 'tribe' so you don't mess with them? and if that's true, what do you get out of your relationship with your tribe?
ReplyDeletewhy can't you let her see everything? what would happen if you completely removed the mask, not just to her but to some hypothetical person who could do nothing about it?
oh, every question makes me think of more!
-Laine
i "keep up appearances" to seem like a normal part of society. i'm pretty sure a lot of people wouldn't talk to me if i had a sign on my back reading sociopath, lol....which would be far less entertaining.
ReplyDeleteand i don't believe you should ever take off your mask completely...thats how people like me get in. she doesnt let me all the way in either, lol. the image i have given people of myself is not at all what i truely am. so no, there is no tribe, just a "close" group of friends. i made my way into this particular group for one person and use the others in the group to toy with this one person.
oh and laine, i know you are becoming more interested and aware, just be careful, i can almost see your wheels turning, lol.
what is your guideline for "normal" society? i'm wondering if there are parts of society that are easier for you to fit into or if your differences are deeper than the differences between a gang environment (where being a sociopath might actually be helpful?) and the country club set.
ReplyDeletelol, i'm sure the sociopath sign would probably put off alot of people! although i wonder about the people it wouldn't put off...anyway, are there certain traits you find more important to hide than others?
oh, i *was* victimized by a sociopath many eons ago, and in the last few years have watch another one victimize some of my in-laws. but i completely remove my mask all the time (in fact, i rarely wear one anymore at all), and i find it makes me much *less* vulnerable. isn't it what one isn't willing to see and accept about oneself that creates vulnerability?
so the only thing you get out of your friends is a veneer of respectability and the enjoyment of toying with them?
oh, my wheels are digging in at this point! should i be careful of jumping down this rabbit hole or are you implying i should be careful of you?
-Laine
lol, no, you don't need to be careful of me....not saying that at all.
ReplyDeletethe traits i hide most are pretty much everything that i am. all of my thoughts. i know they would not be accepted by well, by anyone, so i know its best to keep that stuff to myself.
Great thread. I am not a socio but I am also not a normal person and I agree with the original post, such as: "normal people lack a certain consistency in their sense of right and wrong." Only I hope that the word "normal" meant "average" rather than "non-socio." Many of us non-socios think for ourselves too and easily see through all this political hypocracy and stupidity. We may be a litle too trusting at times, but we're not all idiots. ;-) I am impressed with how honest so many people are here. It is very refreshing. OK, some of it is a little spooky, but I'd rather be spooked than lied to. I read that the average person lies 3 times every 10 minutes. Justabadpenny, u may be a lucky sociopath but I think u have a lucky wife too. You are loyal, honest, and trustworthy and you appreciate her very much. They say that love is a verb. You may not feel it like some do, but each love is different, and you are loving by your actions. Men have truly loved me and cared about me but they could not give me what you give your wife. I could love an honest sociopath on those terms. ;-)
ReplyDeleteHello guys and girls,
ReplyDeleteI wondered if some of you might lend me some advice with my relationship with a sociopath.
I was in a serious relationship with a female sociopath for 6 years and I've know about her sociopathy for 4 months.
Now we would both like the relationship in the long run to work out. Although we obviously both have different needs that we're struggling to meet. Really I'm just a good enough partner to latch onto, but of course the amount of pain I endure doesn't matter. She claims that she wants to change and not act in a destructive manner. By doing interrogations during her sleep, I've been able to ascertain she does want to marry me but is scared that her anti-social personality disorder will cause her to hurt meet and act whorishly, causing too much damage to me and relationship. The marriage would fail. This would be a bad thing if we had kids, which we nearly had 2 years ago.
Can you offer any advice on how I can help her develop these codes of conduct. Is there any way I can influence her so she considers my feelings in her thinking? Beyond of course what I can take before I break it off. What made you guys develop codes of conducts to your partners. If of course you act in ways that consider the partners emotions and feelings?
In addition. Is there any way for me to move into special territory, where she no longer feels the urges to lie and manipulate me. Or does such a place not exist for you? Honestly, I don't want to be a passive victim and I will fight my corner to make her act at least honourably. Even if it does deeply wound us in the process, which of course it is.
The difficulties for me as an 'Empath'.
The main sticking point is I'm having trouble empathising with her fears and motivators while she is developing this new code of conduct. Currently it involves her acting in a selfish manner and really damaging me. This isn't acceptable with me and I'm trying to help her understand why this has to change for the relationship to work out.
I'm well aware this may all be a part of the game for her. However, emotionally I checked out. I don't like any aspect of her, I can't forgive her, I don't trust her and I watch her every move/word/action like a hawk. But I swore a personal oath to be by her side always. If I can help her by being in her life I will, if I have to leave to help her understand a point then I will. But unlike half my family I do not abandon those I make commitments to.
Background on me
A little background on myself, so you can get an idea what is driving me. Perhaps you will see the go manipulate banners she saw and will be able to understand her motivators.
Now I don't confess to being a 'good' and 'normal' person myself. My dad, uncle and dad's father were all sociopaths, there's a strong genetic link right? They caused a lot of damage to the family and themselves as a whole. I also have an extremely high tolerance to emotional pain, guilt (if I really do feel it), but what I do feel is self-hatred for my transgressions. I do not want to be like them, I want to generally be liked and appreciated, for who I am and not what I pretend to be (been there done that). So I have a very strong set of morals and code for behaviour. To some degree these are selfish but when they are selfish they don't hurt anybody else.
I don't know if there is something 'wrong' with me, or if it's just in my head and I'm as messed up as everybody else.
...
Anyway if you guys have any input I would be interested to hear it. It's pretty rare to get a unemotional reaction when you want first hand advice on relationships with sociopaths.
PS – I can understand you guys are human as well. I'm not into labels such as good and evil. Despite what you may feel towards me I view you as equals, just particularly dangerous people if I let you close to me.
Cheers,
Rich
Forget the oath. It doesn't apply when it isn't equally upheld. Get the hell out of there and do it now. Whatever she tells you about trying to "change" is bullshit just to keep you on the hook so that she can use your resources. And nothing you do in this direction is going to work. Get out and find someone who isn't broken.
DeleteI agree with anon 1021, and here's why:
DeleteTo quote you: "However, emotionally I checked out. I don't like any aspect of her, I can't forgive her, I don't trust her and I watch her every move/word/action like a hawk" if you already feel like this, you've lost. She's already taken her money shot, and now is gonna eat up whatever else she thinks she can take from you. You've established that you are going to continue to allow her to manipulate and toy with you, and now she's just gonna do it for fun. You're relationship is done bro.
I know this because I've done the same thing before to people like you. People who opt to "ride it out" are like heroin to me, because I know that if they've been beaten that far down, they're just gonna let me stomp them into the ground. I know it sounds terrible, and I'm sure it is, but its something I've done before and that's what it is. Judge if you will, I don't really care.
empaths don't necessarily always "drink the coolaid" either. to an extent, they mind have some advantages in society when it comes to knowing what is acceptable, but what is acceptable is not always right. Also, one's own code or moral values can change based on experience. someone might have done something they thought was right before and then learned that it wasn't as right as they thought. then an empath would be plagued with more guilt than a sociopath. also, they could be bothered more by a contradiction between societal 'norm' and what they personally believe is right.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what would be a sociopath's motives for creating this blog? is it to understand normal people more so that you can have more of an edge in exploitation?
I don't necessarily believe that there can be no such thing as a moral sociopath. I wouldn't have a problem with a sociopath just for being a sociopath as long as they don't give me a reason to have a problem with them. It is hard for me to completely understand, though, why a sociopath would want to refrain from causing harm if they could probably get away with it. Are there any other reasons why you have a moral code besides so that you can use them to create the illusion that you are an empath? If you could get away with breaking your moral code, would you? if you wouldn't, I'm curious, why not? I can think of some reasons myself, but I'd rather hear it from the source without any input from me.
Knowing what is considered acceptable by society is easy for a sociopath particularly if one delves into sociology and then we can get really pinpointed in the observations we make about other people.
DeleteThe way I see it self-interest is itself subjective. It depends on what ever objectives I form for myself, alterable at whim though I have sturdier rules I don't just cast aside because I'm trying to keep some stability. But the first rule is: survive. I would cast aside my entire moral code in a heartbeat if it meant my life.
I actually play a very good character and intend to for the rest of my life. Not an angel, but generally good, helpful, kind. I even consider myself to have qualities like "love" and "empathy" under the "it looks like a duck, talks like a duck..." principle which allows me to "choose" to have these emotions. But I'm fully aware that I am free to choose otherwise, that but for deliberate choice it would not be. I can even "let go" and roll the dice to an extent with my emotional reactions (and hence my emotions) and so surprise myself with how my emotions respond to various media, usually I'll try to keep that somewhat constrained if people are observing me as I don't want to deal with people getting puzzled over strange emotional reactions.
I was a quite angry person (yelling, losing my temper but never getting physical, that was a very, very early rule which I learned from observing how much my mom hated "violence" in movies and from learning about examples like MLK and being taught to value "non-violence") but even through thinking about anger and its role in natural selection and evolution I've been able to quiet that down by telling myself it has no relationship to my long-term (or short-term aims) and that all "anger" does is bring myself trouble. Out of sheer self-interest I get angry less than an empath. I don't empathize much defined in terms of the behavior of empathizing rather than any innate feeling, but am not opposed to it and actually see myself employing empathy in the pursuit of my long-term interests.
I'm a very strategic ethical egoist. That's what we are (well except the more jokerish types who have thrown strategy out the window and wholly embraced a "why so serious" mindset, though they are more likely to be called "psychopaths" by us not that there is really a well-defined difference). But for the most part my long-term aims don't call for hardly anything you'd consider "evil". I knew I was an egoist long before I pieced together that this mindset is the same as sociopathy but people like me whose interests just happen to fall in line with good behavior don't present for diagnosis.
In adolescence I long struggled wondering if I even had feelings or emotions, then I realized that absent feelings or emotions that just come to me I'm free to just make them up for myself and that makes them real within my personal experience. Nothing has any meaning or value but that which a person gives to it.
I would actually have some very powerful emotional reactions at times but in retrospect these situations are deconstructed so I can see how various influences lead to them. Yet the early ones may have come from born (I call it default) tendancies, so I may or may not have been born a sociopath but my mindset is basically the same now so that's irrelevant.
T.S. Elliot wrote a lot about sociopaths, and many suspect he was one. See: http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/784/
ReplyDeleteAlso, a pertinent line from Murder in the Cathedral by Elliot:
"The last temptation, the greatest treason, is to do the right thing for the wrong reason."
Which is something socios do often just for the sake of appearances and/or manipulation. It's interesting that he attributes via his novel's character, such harsh judgment to this act.
I was just thinking about this very subject and it occurred to me that you (m.e.) had probably written something about it already. Sure enough, you have. I particularly liked your last paragraph. It sums up my own experiments with trying to adopt some kind of code quite nicely. I think it must really help to believe in a personal, interventionist god or that morality is objectively true. Without that, I have found that I unable to really stick with/believe in any kind of ethical code. Ah well, I can at least say that I tried.
ReplyDeleteGood post, M.E. I found it insightful and helpful.
code, morals, etc...
ReplyDeletecome on, it's your nature to be what you are and it's our nature as "normals" to expose you for the parasites that you actually are..
Not rocket science, you are what you are, there is a reason for your existence, its just that most people aren't aware of it. I am though, and I'm up to my third exposing of an SP... ooo the counter manipulation is such an enjoyable thing..
That's the thing you see, you are so far up your own arses, you can't see it can you?
Like all things in life there is pattern, and I can spot an SP from a mile off now.. I just run to them and let revel in their misguided view that they are manipulating me, but I just play along and document it all...
Such fun.... like all parasites, when exposed their weakness is plain to see.
It's going to be real fun for you when you expose the wrong sociopath and you end up strapped to a table (Ã la Dexter, except real sociopaths don't operate under a silly little code).
DeletePersonally, I have a fair few hunting knives that would just love to become acquainted with you.
It's all fun and games until you realize that we have no limits, no mercy, and we hate losing.
Bwah... Mr/Ms."hates to lose" seems to think that normal people aren't armed or skilled or capable of combat. Gonna end up on your own table if you don't watch it, buddy. Although, the likelihood is that the threats are all just hot air in the first place. They usually are with you people.
DeleteHating sociopaths, and wanting to hurt them or get even with them, to me, is more pathetic than being one, only because a non-sociopath can choose to be empathetic. Sociopaths do not have that choice. They can choose to hurt people or not to hurt, to use people or not to use, and because they feel no empathy or guilt, I admire those who choose not to hurt or use people for personal gain. I admire them for making this choice much more than I admire a “normal” person, who has no excuse to hurt and use other people. I do consider a sociopath misguided if in fact, their upbringing contributed to, or caused their sociopathy (and I think that 99% of the time it was at least a contributing factor). I can feel compassion for socios whether or not they want my compassion, because it is clear from the posts here that many of them are aware (and openly admit) that they are missing something that most people have and value. They appear to be missing what some of us consider the core of our being—our heart and soul. When I read these posts, I keep thinking of the Lion and the Tin Man, and I wish I could give all the socios hearts. (I wouldn’t burden them with guilt though—they are better off without it. ;-).
ReplyDelete:) I appreciate the compassion totally since there is usually none lol.
Delete"Such fun.... like all parasites, when exposed their weakness is plain to see."
ReplyDeleteYou're just the type we're so used to see parading the screen in documentaries about "the common people" during Nazi Germany ... those who wouldn't blink when sending a neighbor to the gas-chamber (after having first watched him starve in the concentration camps and split up his family ... and yadda yadda. You know what I mean.
All these normal people were oh so "empathic" as long as it was all about "normalcy" and being a "good citizen" (...of the Nazi Reich). - And you know, they used science to study "Jewishness", if somewaht more crude than our present neuro-science. I'm not talking against studying anything, but against judging based on labels and prejudice.
You do not belong in the group of people called "empaths". At least the more intelligent among them know what "you" (the type that guy's post represent) stand for is truly horrific.
...And no, my reply isn't meant for him. He's obviously either a kid having a bit of fun, or he's beyond any sense anyone could come up with, sociopath or otherwise.
Zhawq.
their are two things i don't get. one why are people bringing up good and evil, right and wrong so much those things don't exist their just words made up by the powerless to protect themselves and restrict thos with power. The other thing i don't get but to a lesser extent then the whole good the evil thing is the code whats the point of having a code all having a code will do is restrict you i mean the only code that's worth having or that i respect is becoming the best in what ever you decided to do.
ReplyDeleteI would truly be interested in hearing what other people have to say about this
You said, "The only code that’s worth having or that I respect is becoming the best in whatever you decided to do."
DeleteWhen you can't feel empathy for other people it makes it easy to manipulate and hurt them for whatever reason you see fit. I was taught my code by my grandfather, at an early age after many years of violent and manipulative behaviors. I knew the differences between right and wrong, I just didn't care because I never felt them. He taught me to use those abilities to protect the people who are close to me and that being able to do those things for my own immediate selfish reasons was the lazy way to react, and in the long run would not allow me to do what I wanted to do in the first place.
It took several years before I understood what he meant. Not until after a few issues with the court system. It made me completely powerless; I could no longer do what I wanted. Afterward when I returned to school a friend of mine got into a fight. He had done something to provoke it and felt so bad about it that he couldn't defend himself, he just took the beating. A few days later they crossed paths in the hallway and my friend got sucker punched and didn't defend himself again, he couldn't he still felt bad. I stepped in for him and after slamming the guys head between and open locker and its door several times was promptly sent back to my 10x10.
The judge was impressed that I had thought about somebody else for a change instead of only myself and gave me no time. What he didn’t know was that I really was only thinking about myself he only saw the ‘good’ that I had done. In his eyes, I stood up to a bully for a friend who couldn’t defend himself. Personally I didn’t see it that way, he pissed ME off, disrespected MY friend and was going to take whatever punishment I gave him as a consequence.
When I returned to school again, I had a different mindset, a code to base my behaviors on if you will. I still live my life based on that code to this day. I learned that appearing to be in the service of others who feel they cannot defend or stand up for themselves brings more long term opportunities for me. Who wants to sit in jail, where is the fun in that?
"What I do without being commanded - is what others do out of fear of the law". - Aristotle.
DeleteReally, if there were no prison time and there was no law, hypothetically, what would stop a person from doing harm?
My lucky guess would be, that the people around that person/group you brought harm to would care and take measures. That "tribe" sense, some kind of group that relates to most of us, (family, friends, crew, whatever...) defends its members and tends for them. It's how humans survived a couple ice ages I suppose.
That code your grandfather taught you, it's the golden rule. Even if you don't feel bad for hurting someone, why do it? Does it entertain you? I guess I have a very high threshold for entertainment so I only enjoy manipulating and destroying people who had actually harmed me or people close to me - which brings me to...
...everyone needs people close to them. S or otherwise, we're all social animals and we need society to survive, or else becoming a hermit would be a much more popular trend.
You do call people "friends", right? And yes, you do need keep your friends close, because - and it especially applies to empaths - they won't always remember what you did, but they'll remember how it made them feel and yes, sometimes return the favor. That guy pissed you off when he assaulted your friend and disrespected him. The fact you can SENSE disrespect towards others and get PISSED OFF from it, it's something close to empathy. Work with it. At least for people who matter.
I do sincerely hope your friend remembered how you stood up for him and will return the favor one day, one way or another. Why do I only HOPE? Because one doesn't have to be a sociopath to be ungrateful or interpreter kindness for weakness, and this is why you will run into "good" people who are being taken advantage of by other people - who happen to be "empaths".
I like the animal kingdom as a reflective example to human nature.
Ants. Why ants? They're predatory, robotic. They will attack anyone who's not from their colony and devour them, given the opportunity. However, ants got an exception. MITES. They herd them, defend and tend them like people tend to milk cows, because mites produce a kind of nectar that the ants eat. A kind of symbioses.
S or not, everyone realize at some point they have to live in symbioses with other people to some extent to survive and prosper. Have your own "MITES" you can trust, tend for their needs and they'll tend for yours. Fully understanding their needs may oppose a challenge, but the general idea is to not do to them what you wouldn't want be done to you and vice versa.
Now telling your mites from stinkbugs? Simple. The mites you don't even need to manipulate, they'll reflect any good brought to them. "Kind" people. A lot of people confuse kindness with weakness and take advantage, not just sociopaths. Don't be that guy, be the ant, and you will have a steady supply of "mite milk" (i.e. - friendship, loyalty, kindness).
Good and evil, bad or good are set up as protection as much for us as for the ones that we are in some way responsible for. We tell children not to play with matches or play in the road because we know even if they don't the damage that can be cause. A code is a protection too an it comes with experience and thinking. We all learn from our mistakes a clearer lesson then just having someone one telling us not to do something. Motives are less hidden by empaths then S. and what our position is in other's lives as a mother, father, sister or brother usually rules our reason for setting boundries not to just have good fun with controling, enslaving or humiliating those that are weaker for sport.
ReplyDeleteGood & evil get a bad rap, and so does God. So many whackos, fundamentalists, and other cult people are so obsessed with their petty limited versions of good & evil, and their versions of God, that many sensible intelligent people want no part of it, understandably. But good, evil, and God should not be dismissed just because confused, fearful, and ignorant people cling to their distorted views about these mysterious realities. The act of abusing something innocent and helpless is the epitome of evil, and helping another being or creature with no thought of gain--pure altruism--this is an example of good. Sacrificing yourself for the sake of others is good. Betraying friends is evil. Basically, on a deep level, truth is good, and lies are evil. (Of course, there are exceptions that involve being true to something greater than just what is being said or not said.) Generally speaking, deceitfullness, selfishness, calousness, prejudice, are all forms of evil, just as all great art, elevated humor, true kindness, and generosity are forms of good. I think the smell of baking bread is a purely good reality. ;-) Most evil is fear-based and most goodness is faith-based and/or based on courage. Good & evil are big mysteries, like love, because we don't understand their sources. We get so confused because we're fed so much crap about superficial moralities, and other nonsense--we're told that this has something to do with good and evil, when, of course it is just socio-cultural mores, which are necessary for society to evolve, but do not have much to do with good and evil. What is considered good in one age is evil in another. Many people pretend to be good, appealing to fears and emotions to get others to do bad things in the name of God and goodness--I think most of them believe their own lies. And good people do bad things, all the time--out of weakness, fear, lack of wisdom. Most of us are not all good or all evil. But I believe if we truly want to be good, in eternity, we will be. It is not so complicated if you believe that good and evil can be measured or assessed by intention, rather than by actions. I believe a murderer can be good inside and we all know priests can be very very bad. But I also think that many people (as well as many children and animals) have good instincts and often can detect good and evil with their gut feelings.
ReplyDeleteThe word "good" comes from the word "God," so ultimately, good is God. God is also love, so love is good. The further you get from love, the closer you get to evil. But if you cannot feel love, that is not evil. Rejecting or condemning love and goodness may be evil. Continuing to reject it is sin. Goodness is very powerful, but evil is just lack of goodness, so it has no real power of its own--evil is like a shadow. it just temporarily blocks the light. It can be seductive, because it often appeals to the ego, or offers material rewards, but like the ego, it has no eternal value. It makes a big stink but eventualy it peters out or self destructs, while the good always remains, untarnished, and grows stronger. Good and evil exist--good and rejection of good. Just as there is night and day, and without these extremes, we would be very bland, lifeless robots. It would not matter whether we hurt people or not; whether we were out for ourselves or wanted to help others and make the world a better place. Nothing would matter except satisfying our needs and desires. There would be no right and wrong, no better or worse, no delicious and awful, no beauty and ugliness . . . our entire lives are based on striving to become better. And I suspect that the people who truly understand the importance of striving to be good for goodness' sake, are those who find true fulfillment and contentment. This may be a strange place for me to go on and on about the power and beauty of goodness, but hey--I didn't bring it up! ;-)
I recently discovered myself to be an empath, and because of this I've become completely fascinated by sociopathy. The mindset was so foreign to me that I was almost desperate to understand it. I'm beginning to realize that there's no hope that I'll ever truly understand your kind, so I'm not particularly worried about it anymore. However, your view of empaths seems... kind of small. The principle that I base my life on is very simple: "I know that I know nothing." I'm not so closed-minded and arrogant as to believe that my way of life is superior to anyone else's. I actually dearly love a sociopath, and I'm exceptionally respectful of his 'condition' because it's as much a part of him as my high sensitivity is a part of me... What I'm trying to say is that empaths are just as susceptible to lacking conviction as sociopaths. We just happen to possess the additional drawback of feeling far, far too much.
ReplyDeleteOpenEmpath: I think when people talk about empaths here, they are talking about non-sociopaths, not actual empaths. At least that is what it seems, if you read the posts. But, even so, as I wrote above, not all non-socios are alike--we cannot all be stereotyped--we are not all stupid, ignorant, predictable, or easily programmed. Just as it is clear, when you spend time here, that you cannot lump all socios together. It has been very mind-opening to me, to read these posts. Being somewhat of an actual empath myself, perhaps that explains my fascination with sociopathy, who knows. It could be that I have been close to people I suspect were socios. I wonder if there is a way to know for sure if someone is or not, and I wonder if there ae borderline cases--I would imagine that there are.
ReplyDeleteI think that the question, "how can sociopaths be good?" stems from the fact that people only really hear about sociopaths in the mainstreams when someone goes on a serial-killing spree. And I am pretty sure that although the majority are probably sociopaths, it is also unfairly attributed to some (that is bs of course, I don't believe anything can be unfairly done to a serial killer, that is laughable, they deserve worse than what they get). But seriously, if people only hear about sociopaths as cold-blooded killers, then of course they would wonder why any would "chose to 'do the right thing..."
ReplyDeleteThe reason is simple in my view, it is because they are able to recognize what "the right thing" is by societal norms, and can consider what is the right course of action, even if they don't feel anything about it one way or another. That is how I've gotten by. I was religious a long, long time ago, but that is something I have completely separated myself from for personal reasons. I am not an atheist, but I also no longer believe in anything. And I can still see right from wrong.
The real disgusting thing is that people think of this in the extreme. "How can sociopaths be good?" There are plenty of empaths who use their natural understanding of human behavior to benefit themselves at others' detriment. That is not good at all, yet they are the exact opposite of sociopaths.
The end truth is that it isn't about nature, it is about nurture. Come up with something good, even if it isn't much, and you have something to pattern what is socially considered positive off of, whether or not doing the exact opposite makes you feel worse.
You are so right, Anonymous. We only hear about sociopathic serial killers, or the "sociopaths among us" who are out for themselves at our expense. But that's because it's hard for sociopaths, on this planet, to talk openly. Therefore, you have no voice to defend yourselves (and/or educate the rest of us). But then along comes the Internet! ;-) To my surprise and delight, I have already learned here, that many a sociopath is far more conscientious and noble than many a non-siciopath. Of course, I knew that many non-socios were truly bad--or could do very bad things out of weakness or delusion. I imagine there are socios who believe in God too--not because they feel God's presence or love, but because they have reasoned that God's existence makes sense, intellectually and/or scientifically. I wonder. I've been online steadily since 1996, yet this is the only virtual place I have ever felt comfortable talking openly, from the heart, about good and evil, morality, and so forth. Who knew? ;-)
ReplyDeleteI get that you don’t need a conscience to follow some kind of ethical code. I get that in some ways, the lack of emotionality might even make it easier to follow any kind of ethical code with consistency. My questions for sociopaths are:
ReplyDeleteAre you routinely successful in adhering to your code? And
Are you relatively happy, peaceful as a result? In other words, have you found it psychologically beneficial?
Socialpaths are absolutely crazy. You can beat them at there own game. You need to train yourself to think like them. Your responses to their lies and intention for complete destruction must be well thought our based up logic, not emotion. They thrive to see their targetic victims suffer... Never show weakness, in fact demonstrate emotional strength even when it's not there. This will drive them to resort to more drastic measures to emotional harm you and they will make mistakes. You just need to know where to look. As a targeted victim myself I started looking and researching places my partner interacted with people in positions of power where notes were documented. The socialpath will typically state all kinds of misleading and untrue facts to hightened there attractiveness to the situation and if necessary and it usually is; belittle you.
ReplyDeleteFucking
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that the only way to do this would be to make "Good" more desirable than "Bad."
ReplyDeleteSounds like me. In the end there is no invariable moral code to follow. Productivity is the final answer. I'm a compulsive scheduler and organizer, every day has a game plan, and every decision, whether moral or not, is weighed against how it will benefit me and my goals in the long run. Simple.
ReplyDelete"A frequent question I get is how can sociopaths be good? Why would sociopaths choose to "do the right thing" if they don't feel the emotion "guilt" like everyone else does?"
ReplyDeleteI would say thats the wrong question to ask. And I think you purposely approached it that way.
Here's a better question that I think is more representative of the query being addressed.
Why would a socipath do "the right thing" if they could 1) get away with it and 2) doing so would not be immediately and personally as advantagious to them verse "doing the wrong thing"?
This is a much more direct question and saves alot of rationalizing.
"One sort of bad thing about the sociopath's "code" compared to the empaths' is that the empath really drinks the Kool-Aid and believes that their way of life is "right," and has intrinsic meaning and purpose."
Your view of empath is really skewed. You want to be understood but you have some many false generalizations about others. Here you are talking about how society imposes all these negative connotations on the scoiopath when you do the exact same thing. Please show me where the defintion of an empath is synonymous with self rightousness and self delusion. That is what you describe.
It similar to me saying that all sociopaths are unfeeling monsters that are so self deluded that they can't possibly understand the world around them in a non-singular subjective way. So they make up "codes" to further delude themselve that they aren't just making shit up to justify their complete subjectivity and disguise it as objectivity.
ou constantly attribute traits to empaths that are not conclusively tied to them. Which means you are projecting and trying to rationlize why you think your point of view is not only different but more (sic) honest. This is often done to convince yourself or rationalize (rather than use reason) you thoughts and opinions.
But I guess this is the price we all pay when no one (even the sociopaths) ever learn what it is to think critically. The logical fallacies that you make with every article is astounding for one that purports to be honest with themselves and intelligent.
Psst...your ignorance and need to convince yourself of your opinions as turth is showing. But don't worry most people do because it is human nature to do so, and sociopaths are still subject to general human nature. Your narcissism is trying convince yourself that such negative seeming (from you point of view)traits are only those of others and does not include you or those like you.
If you are fine with deluding yourself rather than educating yourself thats fine but don't expect others to share your delusions or adhere to the things you are projecting on them.
Let offer this analogy to enlighten the misunderstanding you seem to have with others view verses your own. Its incredibly simple and does not address the complexities of the human psychie but I think it shows the basic point.
ReplyDeleteIf I asked people to choose between two colors green or blue and they choose one, it doesn't mean they are blind to the other color or are fooled into thinking that there choice is naturally the superior one. It means they have an PERSONAL opinion in favor of one verses the other. That opinion may also change at some later time because of the very fact that choice does not automatically mean ignorance of the alternatives.
Why would a sociopath (psychopath) choose to do something 'good' when we don't feel it?
ReplyDeleteIt's all about practicality. If it leads you to your goal, you do it.
We are not Good, but we are also not Bad.
It is not only 'good' that doesn't mean anything to us, 'bad' also means nothing to us.
Those terms both carry no real meaning for us, other than this:
Good = Our gratification.
Bad = No gratification.
Anon 6:45,
ReplyDeleteA few words from a fellow reader, if that's okay:
M.E. is always purposeful. He does this regularly, but he writes some damn sensible and informative articles from time to time... and that's for both groups (sociopaths/psychopaths and Empathic normal people).
Clearly I cannot REALLY speak for empaths, but I have read comments saying as much posted by empaths. And no, they weren't gullible fools.
My immediate reaction to your post was to say:
Don't let those small discrepancies get to ya. I mean, sometimes it's alright to let people think for themselves. ;)
But then I read on and found there was more to say:
"Your view of empath is really skewed. You want to be understood but you have some many false generalizations about others."
We all have skewed views of the groups we aren't ourselves part of. Yet we still want others to understand us. Nothing sinister in that. We're human too!
"Here you are talking about how society imposes all these negative connotations on the scoiopath when you do the exact same thing."
I know, you wrote this to M.E., not to me. But I have a blog too, and I also do this.
You must yourself be part of either the empath majority or of a minority that holds special status, or you would understand why one gathers a few bitter itches from being stigmatized.
It seems you're not aware about the extent of 'skewedness' that our minority in particular meet. Did you know that some people actually think we're not even human? Did you know there's being research done with the purpose of doing away with our very existence?
I dare say that's pretty hostile despite the civil tone it is being communicated in, and it would push any minority into a defensive position, no?
"It similar to me saying that all sociopaths are unfeeling monsters that are so self deluded that they can't possibly understand the world around them in a non-singular subjective way."
There you go.
When we have read Your post and found something positive, we read a hundred books that talk about how to control and eliminate us.
.....
I almost felt sorry for you there a second. Stigmatized minority? Please. What will it be next, "sociopath pride" marches in downtown Berkley?
DeleteI "get" the deal that so long as I'm useful to you in some way, and don't challenge your authority or control then you will not try to hurt or kill me. You might even be nice to me. I might even find you charming and funny. I have "friends" like this who I value quite highly for their intelligence and their preceptiveness. I don't trust them though, and come to think of it, I'm not currently on speaking terms with any of them [because they're fucking psychos, der...]
Still... what about ME? I quite enjoy shaping my own reality, in collaboration with others but not as a slave.
Am I the sociopath? I am hanging out on a sociopath forum and finding the sociopathic posts much more interesting and entertaining than the "empathic" ones. Sometimes I even laugh at the "empaths", because lets be honest here. Some of it is kinda lame.
"He punched me in the face and broke my nose but I can't possibly leave him because I love him so much. Then he did it again. Somebody please feel sorry for me!" Not going to happen stupid.
Then again, that's the oldest trick in the book. Convince the victim that they are the evil one.
I just can't do the whole torturing small children because you're bored thing. Sick, evil, disgusting. No absence of feeling there. I feel VERY STRONGLY about that.
Could I kill, in cold blood, a confirmed sociopath who was endangering the lives of those I care about? Yes, without a blink.
Anon 6:45 (again)
ReplyDeleteAnd the second half:
"So they make up "codes" to further delude themselve that they aren't just making shit up to justify their complete subjectivity and disguise it as objectivity."
It's a terrible urge. What can I say...
"The logical fallacies that you make with every article is astounding for one that purports to be honest with themselves and intelligent."
Really? You think he does it with EVERY article? I disagree.
Then again, most of his articles don't even pertain to empaths. Maybe that's why I don't get this impression, since I am not an empath myself.
But I can assure you that from a 'Sociopathic' perspective he's being quite forward and frank in ways that are uncommon to us.
Uncommon, since it is in our nature to be secretive and see to it that others do not learn about not only our individual flaws, but about our flaws as a group, because that too is telling.
Yet M.E. is doing this. So am I (on my own blog).
"Psst...your ignorance and need to convince yourself of your opinions as turth is showing."
Well, again I disagree. I'm sure M.E. knows very well where he sits in this respect. You started by using the word 'purposefully'. That is not self convincing, it is convincing others.
In my understanding M.E. knows what he's doing.
However, it may all be a question about perspective. And both you and I cannot choose completely freely in that regard, since I cannot choose to feel empathy and develop a sense of moral, and you cannot choose to stop doing so.
If you are interested in seeing how another "sociopathic"* individual does in terms of being honest, you're welcome to pay my blog a visit. I would be interested in learning how you feel about my level of success in regard to avoiding the temptation to intellectualize and turn tables to make myself look better.
As I say above I'm aware of this temptation, but I sincerely want to create some kind of connection or means via which I can communicate with the empath majority.
* = My diagnosis says Psychopath. And I tend to stick with this term because it to me seems practical to have a clear definition. It gives you a better understanding about what you're really talking about, since there are so many aspects in this cluster of personality types who - though connected by certain behavioral commonalities - are very different in certain ways.
(I explain these things in my blog as well, though I should say it is still fairly new, a few months old, and there're lots of topics I haven't yet covered).
well as a sociopath i usualy do what is most rational and if i genearlly find helping people and doing good thing to be benificial and not just as the notoriety either
ReplyDeleteI think that you can't be rational if you aren't emotional as well.
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary. Emotions is what gets in the way of making rational decisions. It's like the "abused wife" syndrome. She feels attachment to her abusive husband and keeps coming back, convincing herself everything is her fault and she should just not piss him off, eventually taking another punch to the face and lying to cover up for him with the usual "I fail on the stairs".
DeleteThe rational thing is to get up and leave when someone mistreats you (or get back at them, if that's your flavor). The emotions of the "battered wife" in this example prevent her from doing so, and thus she subjects herself to an abusive relationship and that, is irrational.
It's just one example but I can hand out many. Cognitive dissonance is a very emotional state. When you manage to convince yourself, because of your own emotions, that what is happening around you is not what really happens and you give irrational explanations to rationalize the situation to yourself.
Another example: you're an employer and you need to recruit workers. You get too many CV's and you got no time to go through them all or whatever, so you use the services of a graphologist to determine, relying on the person's handwriting, if they're fit for the job. Now the graphologist picks out someone and says they'll be perfect for the job. You hire that person and they under preform. So you start making up stories like "I threw him/her into deep water too quickly", "The task was too difficult", "I didn't explain the task well enough", "I didn't give enough time to do the task", "I didn't give enough resources/time to complete the task" and eventually "The task I given doesn't fit". That is irrational. That emotion of "belief" in some pseudo science like graphology impairs judgement, when a cold cutting individual would realize that this person is to be sacked and replaced with someone more skilled.
to the contrary, emotion clouds judgement and detracts from the ability to make rational decisions.
ReplyDelete-Klepto
p.s. I know using italics on this is childish, but I haven't coded in HTML in forever and the nostalgia was killing me.
Ive had a lesbian on/off rel for 4 yrs with a socio. im bipolar myself. i just dont get why in the world she dishes out so much pain , when she knows damn well i will just give it her straight back and anihilate her in my own defence ? surely only a fucking retard would willingly want to keep getting burned lol .its emotional suicide, and has never beat me at anything at all bar scrabble lmfao .big deal, this empath will never be crushed. truth and honesty wins everytime.
ReplyDeleteFor five years I have been dealing with the socio...I had no idea how fucked up this person was....we met at work, dated for three weeks and he got thrown in jail for probation violation.Then I got the "I love you" and fell for it. Three months of visiting a country club prison...released to my house..beatings started in...now the sick shit happens...I enjoyed it.I got to beat this man with no repurcussions due to the fact that that he was always drunk and had a no drink on his parole. Ooh the fun to watch the frustration. The the neighbor called the cops and he got caught...back to jail,back home, off to anger management for a year. I loved to watch his misery going to classes every week.More fights, more beatings...he cried"no one has ever talked to me the way you have"..too bad,poor baby.One more big fight and we both go to jail...me for a day-him for a month.Never had a charge before and did't want to have a rap sheet like his so I reversed roles and became "the controlled" so he thought.Another game to play...poor weak little woman who loves her monster. One day he moved out...saw it coming. Life was boring for thee months...until he came back. This time I was the I-don't-give-a-fuck porn star.Sat on his buddies lap with no undies on,screamed at the top of my lungs at orgasm so roommates would get interested,jealous.Three weeks of this and he's back in jail...for almost a year. Letters,visitation,phone calls ...so good at playing good when the whole time he was in jail I was being very bad...I loved the double life.Out of jail again...back at home with me...I became the aloof woman.He would scream"You don't give a fuck about anything"...I did, I was trying to drive him nuts. Take all of his power away.All of his efforts to swindle me out of my money didn't work. He couldn't cheat because he had a bracelet on this time and no woman wants to take a man's pants off and see that.Couldn't drink because he had an at home breatholyzer....hahaha the fun. I loved to get drunk in front of him, watch his arms break out in goosebumps.When he got the bracelet off... I knew it would be a matter of time before he found his next victim...I exposed his secrets to his friends-stealing their dope, feeding off their food and beer, never returning anything.One more fight where I got the punch in, not him...too afraid to go back to jail because he was almost off probation...annhilated him with a tongue Satan himself would be afraid of...asked him to leave for the night...he thought he could dupe me when he showed up with a truck to move...only his things were packed.Out the door he goes, but wait!His truck was in my name so I let the weekend pass and got a hold of him and told him if he did'nt meet me at the DMV I would call it in stolen. Still in control....We got there and he tried not to get it in his name but I was ready-had allready talked to a woman there and she said "I'll fix this".Cool and calm,did the paperwork went to the window and he was trying to put old plates back on...she held firm and jammed it in his name. The look on his face was worth 150$-murder in his eyes.Went home, changed locks,phone number...gave him a false sense of security that I knew would make him drink like a fish, drive again,only to get picked up 6 days later.One week before he was off probation. He sits in jail now as I write this...his least favorite place to be.I laugh.Last week I get the letter...I love you but I'm not in love with you, mabye we can be good friends.....I write back saying I never loved him,how could I love a demon...telling him I know what he is-and that the next time he picks his victim he should do more research.That I am him to an extent...only older and wiser,and the game is over. Checkmate,Queen takes King.
ReplyDeleteI have a code.
ReplyDeleteIts nessicary. Without it i would truly be a monster.
I don't feel compelled to follow the guidelines set by society because i find them lacking and contradictory. I may not feel guilt, i might be completely incapable of "putting myself in ther shoes" but that doesn't mean i'm not honorable.
I have written my own morality code, better and more precise than societies.
I won't write it all but i'll give you an example. Killing is ok in certain circumstances. If i feel the person deserve to die then i have no problems removing them. But i would never even consider cheating on a parnter. Never. In fact those that do deserve death. Why do i feel like this? Not because i care about their feelings, thats irrelievant but i find the contradictory nature of humanity disgusting. Cheating means that not only do you not care about or respect your parnter but you are actually getting off on their misery. Who's the sick fuck now?
If all i had to do to gain my life's dreams was to kill someone, in the majority of cases i'd do it. If it was a stranger i wouldn't even hesitate. An aquantince, i'd think about it. A friend, i'd think about it harder. A family member, probably not.
Stealings ok if you can get away with it.
Lying is second nature to me but sometimes i find the truth or a partial truth is much more powerful.
Ok so basically three huge out of bounds things in my mind are
Cheating, rape and paedophilia.
Those are three things i would never do. Because my code prevents it. And there are no exceptions, no ifs, buts and maybes. Those are the rules, my rules and i physcially can't break them.
So my point is that not all socio/psychopaths out there are unthinking monsters that prey on the weak and innocent for their pleasure. I carefully consider and plan all my actions and words. Only in my head does the endless and violent turmoil rage. But through stregth of will and my code i can keep it in check.
I have a code.
ReplyDeleteIts nessicary. Without it i would truly be a monster.
I don't feel compelled to follow the guidelines set by society because i find them lacking and contradictory. I may not feel guilt, i might be completely incapable of "putting myself in ther shoes" but that doesn't mean i'm not honorable.
I have written my own morality code, better and more precise than societies.
I won't write it all but i'll give you an example. Killing is ok in certain circumstances. If i feel the person deserve to die then i have no problems removing them. But i would never even consider cheating on a parnter. Never. In fact those that do deserve death. Why do i feel like this? Not because i care about their feelings, thats irrelievant but i find the contradictory nature of humanity disgusting. Cheating means that not only do you not care about or respect your parnter but you are actually getting off on their misery. Who's the sick fuck now?
If all i had to do to gain my life's dreams was to kill someone, in the majority of cases i'd do it. If it was a stranger i wouldn't even hesitate. An aquantince, i'd think about it. A friend, i'd think about it harder. A family member, probably not.
Stealings ok if you can get away with it.
Lying is second nature to me but sometimes i find the truth or a partial truth is much more powerful.
Ok so basically three huge out of bounds things in my mind are
Cheating, rape and paedophilia.
Those are three things i would never do. Because my code prevents it. And there are no exceptions, no ifs, buts and maybes. Those are the rules, my rules and i physcially can't break them.
So my point is that not all socio/psychopaths out there are unthinking monsters that prey on the weak and innocent for their pleasure. I carefully consider and plan all my actions and words. Only in my head does the endless and violent turmoil rage. But through stregth of will and my code i can keep it in check.
My prediction is that you will find out that your code is not the right code someday. I do not believe you have a wise code, because although you know right from wrong, you have chosen some wrongs as part of your code. You say stealing is OK, so it is OK if I steal from you. Is murder OK, what if I murdered you, is that OK for you. Know it is wrong for you and it is wrong for everybody else. This is why other people would not want you around because your code is corrupt. You need to think about things a bit more and realise that there is a reason for right and wrong and the concept of truth existed way before Darwin
Deletejustabadpenny said:
ReplyDelete“I wont be sleeping with anyone without telling her for sure, my point was simply that i see the 'i am gonna tell you the truth when all it will do is hurt you cause i feel guilty' as a hugely selfish thing?
i just dont get hurting people for no reason, i see perfectly doing it for a reason.”
You’re exercising a major flaw in logic. Cheating (breaking your word in a supposedly monogamous relationship) is the action that hurts her. Choosing to keep it a secret is deception. It’s like the president wiretapping citizens: the wiretap is what hurts the people; if he’s a sociopath he might misunderstand the revelation as the time where hurt is caused, because that’s where he observes the emotional reaction; but choosing to avoid that revelation is a HUGELY SELFISH act of deception that also hurts the people.
In other words, you are off by at least 90 degrees. It’s as if you boiled a frog slowly and you claimed you hadn’t hurt it because it didn’t react. (Frogs do jump out of boiling water regardless, but just follow the metaphor as it’s commonly understood.) You are interpreting hurt from a sociopathic perspective. Hurt isn’t caused when you see a reaction, that’s just the moment of clarity when your victim realizes the implications of your actions. You need to understand that the hurt started before you chose the path of deception, and choosing to lie about it (even by omission) is just another way to hurt your wife. I think it’s noble and considerate of you to be honest about your perspective of her, but you need to understand which action causes the hurt and which action merely inflames it by postponing the emotional reaction.
“today i would say i have been able to keep from causing serious harm even when they have done things that would push most people over the edge”
I am finding out in the comments across this blog that many sociopaths have an inaccurate perception of “most people”’s pain thresholds, perspectives, motivations and ethics. If you admit that you suffer from a condition characterized by lacking theory of mind, logically you must concede that you are unable to gauge the species-wide baseline for sociopathic reactions and behaviors, and you should seek to understand/explain yourself by your own metric, not by an imaginary conception of others that is probably dangerously inaccurate.
I'm finding this discussion & blog fascinating. As someone who feels empathy in the extreme, I can say with confidence that this person is not speaking from a 'normal' person's point of view (I side well and truly with justabadpenny on this one).
DeleteI also relate very much to the whole 'how can you be good without a conscious'? line. I've had the exact same question put to me, but in the context of me not being religious, 'how can you be (ie what motivation do you have to be) good without having religion?' (nb I'm agnostic - which basically means, I'm totally open to the possibility of god's existence but I'm not buying it unless you can show me some rock solid, scientifically proven (to a very high sigma) evidence of his existence.
My answer though was 'because I have a conscience'. After reading these posts, maybe that's not entirely accurate.. Maybe it's just because everyone has a choice and I choose to be good.
Oops that should be a 'conscience'...
DeleteExactly.
Deletesociogirl said:
ReplyDelete“people do things because they get something out of it.”
This arrogance drives me nuts. You don’t speak for everyone. Don’t say “people” (implying “all” or “most people”) when you mean “sociopaths”. That’s just a way to legitimize your destructive attitude by blaming human nature. It may be YOUR nature, and that’s fine, but don’t foist it on the rest of us just because you want to avoid responsibility while reaping the benefits of telling yourself you’re opening up to the world.
“i pretty much whatever i have done to hurt you, youprobably deserved whether it be your stupidity, your weakness or just being at the wrong place at the wrong time.”
That’s utter garbage and I hope you know it. You are blaming others for your own weaknesses. Yes, your need to “mind fuck someone” is a weakness and it seems to be controlling you, unless you are misrepresenting yourself. You claim your victims “deserved it” but that is clearly only true according to your arrogant need to justify your irrational, irresponsible, destructive and sickening behavior. For example, people other than sociopaths (even autistics and aspies who would be difficult to describe as empathic) generally use the term “wrong place at the wrong time” to note that the person did NOT deserve to be victimized, but was a victim of circumstance. You are turning this concept around as a scapegoat for your malice. If you are so deeply controlled by your hateful urges, you should do the world a favor and victimize yourself instead of others, or have yourself committed. I promise you, you deserve it for your weakness and closed-mindedness (the latter being a common form of stupidity). Also, as an unrepentant victimizer in a world dominated by empathy and agreed-upon ethical exchanges, you are clearly in “the wrong place at the wrong time”.
“i made my way into this particular group for one person and use the others in the group to toy with this one person.”
You are sick, and I mean that both in the literal sense and in the sense of moral judgment. I hope you find the strength to reveal yourself to, well, yourself, and to someone who will understand you. (In your comments asserting the impossibility of such acceptance, I think you are again falling prey to the sociopath’s tendency to underestimate the empathy of empaths.) Failing all that, I hope you suffer terribly for your violence.
Rich said:
ReplyDelete“I'm well aware this may all be a part of the game for her. However, emotionally I checked out. I don't like any aspect of her, I can't forgive her, I don't trust her and I watch her every move/word/action like a hawk. But I swore a personal oath to be by her side always. If I can help her by being in her life I will, if I have to leave to help her understand a point then I will. But unlike half my family I do not abandon those I make commitments to. “
That’s your problem, right there. You “want this relationship to work out”, but you can’t see that it is inherently doomed. The relationship will never work if all of this is true. You need to deal with your abandonment issues instead of victimizing yourself and her by locking yourselves in a destructive relationship that is intent on undermining yourself. Don’t you see the contradiction between your insistence on staying by her side despite it eating away at your soul, and your insistence that she must change “if this relationship will work”? If you don’t see it, look harder. Really. All you are doing is hurting yourself and her. You should stop if you care at all about yourself, her or any future children that you personally will have. You need to realize that you are on the path to being directly responsible for your children’s lifetimes of pain and misery. It will be your fault for bringing them into a loveless (spiteful, hateful) marriage and forcing a sociopathic mother upon them. I hate to be so harsh, but it seems necessary.
Your advice to Rich is right on point. Rich has to realize that he cannot help her in any way form or shape. Even if things appear to change then that is all there is to it.......an appearance and short-term too.
DeleteRich's major mistake is being a goody, goody to the extreme and holding steadfast to a promise or commitment which the female cannot interpret. Understand this Rich. Your commitment to the promise made to her is neither here nor there to her. She can simply make the same promise to you and then discard it in a blink and acted as if she never made such a commitment to you. You will see no form of regret or remorse. She would simply move on.
Rich your commitment to the promise will only see to your emotional demise and that is guaranteed. It is impossible to help her change because you can't. Only a trained professional in sociopathy can render help if the sociopath wants to make changes in his/her life and it won’t be easy.
Rich I would recommend getting some help for yourself at this time.
Zhawq said:
ReplyDelete“Did you know there's being research done with the purpose of doing away with our very existence?”
You make that sound really sinister, but I bet you mean that researchers are trying to find out what makes people sociopathic and how it can be avoided, which is not only benign, but would probably be a great relief to potential sociopaths and everyone else too. Especially if it turns out to be as simple as a series of environmental variables.
“I dare say that's pretty hostile despite the civil tone it is being communicated in, and it would push any minority into a defensive position, no?”
No. I would love to see a cure for autism. I consider such research to be essential to my well-being. You make it sound like researchers are trying to find a chemical weapon that will kill you all. Your opposition to research that could save entire generations from a whole lot of pain and a whole lot of crimes is the sinister position, since you want millions to suffer just to stoke your ego as a special little flower.
Kronos said:
“Who's the sick fuck now?”
The person who kills someone for making a mistake, yet considers himself morally superior, is the sick fuck.
“If all i had to do to gain my life's dreams was to kill someone, in the majority of cases i'd do it. If it was a stranger i wouldn't even hesitate. An aquantince, i'd think about it. A friend, i'd think about it harder. ... So my point is that not all socio/psychopaths out there are unthinking monsters that prey on the weak and innocent for their pleasure.”
Wow, who’s following a contradictory set of morals now? See, this is what makes people want to lock sociopaths up. You’re convinced that your twisted morality is unimpeachable; you’re so certain of this that you would kill without hesitation. Yet, you also want us to believe that you’re not a monster that preys on the weak and innocent for your pleasure - at the very same time that you describe killing the weak and innocent for your pleasure.
“Only in my head does the endless and violent turmoil rage. But through stregth of will and my code i can keep it in check.”
You have such a high opinion of yourself, but you can’t even see how being willing to kill someone and ruin their family is far from “keeping it in check”. You’re so headstrong that you’ve decided you’re good enough to stop from cheating on someone (gee, isn’t that nice) but it’s fine if you kill someone. No, you need serious help. No one person is perfect. You strike me as needing professional help to reevaluate your code of ethics and make sure you stick to it. You probably think you’re above that, but nobody is.
I'm 21 years old and after sufferng from severe social axiety for years, I noticed that recently I'm exhibting the common traits of a sociopath. I no longer feel love or empathy inside of me.
ReplyDeleteI briefly contemplated suicide as the loss of those feelings is truly torturous. However, as I don't want to give up nor lay that on my family, I'll give it a shot.
I now find that tv and music are nice only as distractions, but I feel totally disconnected from it. I feel disinterested in most any form of recreational activity. I'm positive that I'm now a sociopath.
I'm curious, how do you guys feel about art, music, movies, etc. Does it do anything for you?
I recently watched the Hangover and kept a straight face throughout the entire movie. I'm just new at this so I'm looking for advice.
Jones, when a person learns how to blunt the painful emotions - food, drugs, alcohol, substituting TV or anything else to deny the hurt - all the other emotions are blunted as well. "No longer feel(ing) love or empathy inside" means it was there once, but it's been crushed. That doesn't make you a sociopath. It does mean it's important for you to find a way to rediscover and reconnect to the divinity within yourself.
DeleteI think sociopaths have something wrong in their brains that short-circuits the path between their souls and their minds. What's 'wrong' is simply that their behavior is harmful to others. We are all selfish to a degree, but sociopaths for whatever reason don't make the leap to empathy. They remain primarily selfish, and develop their skills at manipulation as they grow older. If they are disciplined, they find careers that reward their selfishness and ability to get what they want. They mask their coldness because they can get more of what they want by pretending to care about others. They create 'codes of behavior' for the same reason. Certainly sociopaths can care about others, but it is for what those others do for them. Always, it goes back to selfishness.
The great tragedy for a sociopath, or for anyone who is disconnected from her own soul, is that she cannot know the divine spirit that enlivens the whole miraculous universe - until she dies, and that drop of divinity is freed from her faulty brain and rejoins the river of energy that is God.
PS: If you're lucky enough to have a near-death experience, you'll know that this is true. If you read the studies you'll find that people who have gone through this come back wanting to do good in the world. It's as much a hallmark of the near-death experience as seeing a tunnel (though not everyone experiences either). I wonder if a near-death experience, where you are aware of your soul leaving your body, could change a sociopath. I think it could.
@Anonymous 10:58AM
ReplyDeleteLOL! Can't you see through all of this BS?
ME, Zhawq, Kronos, and most others are works of fiction dreamed up by a common everyday narcissists at best! They probably waste the rest of the day playing video games when not blogging.
He he love your conclusion, Anon. Bravo!
ReplyDeleteRoflmao. I love this blog, hats off to you good sir for writing solid posts and blogging material.
ReplyDeleteThat's not the best part though, the best part is all the "Sociopath wannabes."
Zomg being a Sociopath and not feeling regular human guilt is cool and strong! It's like a super power! There sure are a lot of insecure people here.
Demonstration? of course!
"i just dont get hurting people for no reason, i see perfectly doing it for a reason"
You my friend are not a "Sociopath". Hurting people is fun, that's the reason. It's enjoyable to see them squirm in and out of their foolish little situations like worms crawling from a bird.
It's enjoyable to take months and even years of subtle interactions to completely re-direct a persons life agenda (especially into the ground if they hated you at first or simply failed to acknowledge your unending awesomeness).
It's fun to create co-dependence in previously very independent people.
It's ENJOYABLE, ok? That's the reason. Actions are calculated, life goes on but in the end this is fun.
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ReplyDeleteWant to know how to break up with a sociopath?
Make it incredibly inconvenient for them to be with you, They will leave for a better target if they aren't upset you aren't their toy anymore. Depending on their level of intelligence you will always be their toy so long as you are in contact with them.
======================
I find it interesting that our society is so fucked up that we have mass numbers of insecure people worshipping people that common science considers sick.
Oh, one more thing. Sociopaths aren't hellbent on gaining power. They are hellbent on gaining enough power in life for them to continue having their fill undeterred. Understand?
I like fucking with dumb (and sometimes intelligent) women who slowly degrade themselves into providing everything I want from them. I have enough money to live my own life and never need shit from anybody, but what the fuck is the fun in that?
I rather have a woman buy me a car for my birthday while I see what happens when I purposefully forget hers. I construct myself to be "everything she's ever wanted" and so she is "in love" and then I do things that blatantly show I do not give a shit about her.
I watch while her head spins trying to put the two together and it's absolutely hilarious. When she gives me a hard time I act like a sick puppy dog who loves her and she forgives me. I then move on to ignoring her (until I want something).
Eventually the emotionally wounded bitch wises up and makes this whole big break up drama.
These recent years though I've learned to get her friends/family on my side as soon as possible. Women do not break up with you if their friends and family love you.
It's hilarious to watch as her family and friends agree with you as you mind fuck her in every aspect of her life until she no longer wants to live. Then when you've gotten everything you think you will get you move on.
This one time I actually had my girlfriends (or ex I should say) friend come to me and start a relationship with me because I was "too good for that stupid whiney whore who couldn't possibly understand a good man like you".
Perfect, absolutely hilarious, mountains of enjoyment.
See, sociopaths DO feel. lol
Oh and, I don't feel bad for how I am or who I am. I was born this way and it's not my fault someone hasn't killed me yet. The only loneliness I feel is the constant pain of being surrounded by people I consider less than myself.
I am in pure delight when I find an intelligent and capable peer.
Not sure I've ever been more disgusted in my entire life.
DeleteYou're not powerful. You are a pathetic - yes PATHETIC - parasite.
You weren't born a monster, by the way. You made yourself one.
"it's not my fault someone hasn't killed me yet"
Delete-- working on it.
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ReplyDeleteOh and on cheating? Want more examples?
================================
My girlfriend who at the time was absolutely head over heels in love with me at the time had dying grand parents.
She would visit them on some weekends and the drive was long. I had gone once with her already and though she begged me to go again I told her I had work to do.
I spent the weekend fucking one of her "friends" who had been wanting me since the day she met me. I guess it pays to be good looking and subtly flirtatious.
She visited a few more weekends until her grand parents died. We continued fucking almost every time she was down there and the other girl excused her guilt by having a conversation about how much of a bitch my GF was to her in high school.
Gotta love how women can excuse anything with the simplest slights.
When the boring ass funeral came around for both her grand parents (one died of heart failure, the other of heart disease... which is, missing the person who died). I "received a call from work" and was back at her friends house doing her.
That's your answer to cheating. Make sure the bitch is clean though.
Oh and since there was no evidence of me fucking or fooling around with said friend but tons of text messages of her hitting on me...
I just deleted a few here and there, remade a few online chats and whammo came to my girlfriend and told her her friend had been hitting on me and I was "afraid to tell her because I knew she would believe her friend over me"
My girlfriend confronts her friend, she spills the beans on our affair and of course my girlfriend believes me. The girl had NO excuse for not being at the funeral and I was painted as the hero that always tries to be there for her even though I have a really demanding job.
Perfectly executed.
Oh and... we are still together.
:-)
That's was demonic. The work of evil forces.
DeleteWhy do ppl think sociopaths don't feel emotion... we feel emotion we just live in a different reality that the rest, this reality doesn't allow to feel things the same way or understand how to care... we would be interested in music or art or many other things if we had no emotion.
ReplyDeleteEven our cousins psychopaths have emotions... they just process them on a vastly different playing field.
When I was a young adult I learned the value of logic, philosophy, and ethics and learned the importance of adopting an ethical framework.
ReplyDeleteI am basically a reciprocal consequentialist, as long as people respect my well being and vested interests I will respect their own, and I won't harm others unless they intend to harm me in some way.
I suspect the anonymous story about his cheating affair is a fabrication from a sociopath wannabe, but if true it doesn't surprise me since some sociopaths are malignant narcissists and "empaths" as this blog calls them will believe and justify anything to themselves.
ReplyDeleteThe presented behavior does constitute a breach of trust and reckless behavior, and really isn't a very good answer to cheating.
Everyone has sociopathic traits. The people who truly do not are the suckers in life.
ReplyDeleteWell, logically, it benefits us to fit in and I've found that acting (relatively) good simply streamlines that process. I live with that inherent evil(?) streak but have found that I can use my devious talents for the good of the many and the satisfaction level remains the same.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a sociopath, and I don't really want to be. But I don't judge people for things they can't control. However, I do think sociopaths (like all people) have a choice.
ReplyDelete1) they can lie, cheat, steal and generally take advantage of people.
2) while they may not be able to actually empathize with other people, they can develop some sort of ethical code for interacting with others. In this way, they can easily become decent human beings.
Sadly, I see a lot of socios (and socio wannabes) embrace option 1 on this website. The forum is full of people trading cruel stories about theur various conquests. They see non-sociopathic humans (empaths, narcissits, etc.) as "lesser creatures" who are blinded by emotions. This view of other people is pretty terrible, and it generally reinforces the stereotypical view that sociopaths are evil and can't be reformed. That's unfortunate b/c it causes empaths to demonize sociopaths, and it alienates the sociopaths who do wish to be decent people. I can't blame you sociopaths for keeping your true selves a secret. Why wpuld you want to risk persecution?
Having said that though, I do think the "good sociopaths" owe it to themselves and the rest of us to distance
themselves from the "bad sociopaths". The good sociopaths out there have a unique perspective on life, and it's worth learning more about it. You're fellow humans, and whether you empathize with others is really irrelevant. The point is just that you live decent lives and contribute to society. Morals and values are complicated, and whether we're empaths or sociopaths, we may be able to learn something from each other.
Do any socios out there feel the same way? Which of you feels a need to be "good"? Which of you tries to treat other people with respect? Do any of you have any thoughts on this subject?
You are so ripe for picking.
Delete"it causes empaths to demonize sociopaths, and it alienates the sociopaths who do wish to be decent people"
Here's a hint: Evil does exist. I hope it never crosses your path because it will surely exploit you for you lack of "judgementalness". Or perhaps one should simply say, lack of judgement.
Gosh, I almost agree with the sociopaths nowL: "If you can't tell Good from Evil then you deserve to be roasted alive just slightly above the pain threshold of actually cracking and losing your mind".
Please help me. I'm TRYING to be good. Don't you know how hard it is to SUFFER from a mental illness? Zhawq really got you with the whole "persecuted minority" thing. Wouldn't want any of your politically correct friends to accuse you of perpetrating "stereotypes", now would we?
Just wondering. Can a sociopath be deluded enough to think that they are "normal", not realizing what they are? Believing that they have done no wrong?
ReplyDeleteYes, I live with one... I'm sure of it - he lies and cheats, but when he's at home with me he's as good as gold. He sees himself as a very good person. When I've confrontd him with his lying, cheating ways his line is: "I didn't mean to hurt you". And I kind of believe him. He definitely subscribes to the LOVE is a VERB theory. "Look at all that I do for you. Look at all that I've give to you. These actions show that I love you!!" He is sooo afraid to look at himself that he is deluded into believing that he's a GOOD person who screws up now and then. "I'm not perfect - no one is! It's not like a KILLED someone!" And then he turns the attack onto me. I'm getting so very tired of it. I really believed that he could change... I was wrong.
ReplyDeletePlease don't discount those of us who are perfectly capable of determining what the 'right' thing to do is, and do it because we simply can't be bothered to do what we really want. Don't forget how much work goes into covering your tracks, keeping what you say internally consistent, and generally keeping non-socios off of our backs.
ReplyDeleteIn short, maximizing efficiency of effort.
Political parties and religious groups do not gain followers and believers by having a great moral cause. They gain loyal legions by generating the most powerful emotion of all:fear. Followers do what their Pastor tells them because they fear they will go to hell. Conservatives follow the GOP because they fear Obama. Fear is an emotion that clouds judgement and these groups know it. It is a powerful tactic. Most, if not all of the top leaders of both religious and political parties are themselves sociopaths. As you know, M.E., there are plenty of weak and fearful people to do your bidding. These "followers" are those people. Just look at the Tea Party. Their motivation is pure fear.
ReplyDeleteGratification and failure seems the same and good and bad. I like gratification, and I don't like failure.
ReplyDeleteI suppose someone who does not have sociopath like characteristics would like good, and not like bad. I could be off in my comparisons, however.
You forgot to mention in the article that a sociopath is not bound by his/ her code. The code is only/ mostly there to help blending in. It is frequently broken (by most, if not all sociopaths) and of cause a sociopath won't feel bad for having broken it.
ReplyDeleteOkay, so maybe this isn't true for all sociopaths. Kroner said sth about physically not being able to break his code. Now while I think that's bullshit, he may have over dramatized his answer and might actually almost never break his code.
Personally, I don't yet have a code, but I blend in just fine anyways, most of the time that is.
In the end any absolute and/ or generalized statement is partially wrong as sociopathy is (or so I believe) more of a spectrum disorder than anything else.
Physically, he mentioned pedophilia. To break that code you need to be sexually attracted to children, for starters. To most people the idea alone would be profoundly disgusting as well as immoral, tho I guess to be disgusting with a pedo you don't need to be an empath. I mean, I don't know a single person who didn't have that one "dirty old man" living on their block their parents told them to stay away from. We've all been children once, S or not, and to think that someone could have done to us like that as we were children... You don't need emotions to feel enraged from that.
DeletePedophilia is indiscriminate, you'll find it everywhere on the planet, and not all Pedos are sociopaths while some are. The common factor is they all rationalize it to themselves...
Now there was this singer of this Nu-metal band recently, that was charged, along with 2 other women, with sexually assaulting a baby. One of the women who was charged was the baby's mother. I do believe they were sociopaths. But what can I say? The only thing worse than Nu-metal is baby-diddling, so yes, I do hope they don't see the light of day.
I'm just going to put down a few of my thoughts here, unrelated to the rest of the thread. They should provide eithr amusement, condescension, or a source of discussion, but hopefully discussion.
ReplyDeleteIt's rather sad (that is, disappointing) to see the arbitrary boundaries drawn between those considered "sociopaths" and those considered "normal".
There is such a wide spectrum, and many of the comments that I've read are empaths attacking socios (or vice versa), showing less consideration than those they are attacking. I'm yet unsure whether I could be considered a socio or "normal" by society; perhaps I'm in a grey area in between them.
But it seems... Rude, if nothing else, to judge others based on their mindset that you cannot understand. The boundaries and taboos of talking openly about sociopathy lead to ignorance. Empaths cannot understand the socio mindset, thinking it appalling or wrong... But socios can understand and imitate the actions--if not feelings-- of empaths. Does this, then, mean that socios are at an advantage over the rest of the populace? Having that different perspective, being able to see both sides of the proverbial coin of personalities?
It also seems to me that those considered "sociopaths" have the onus of driving society forward, whether by manipulation or by altruism, having a perfectly unbiased view of the effects of their actions.
OK, I'm done. Discuss.
"it seems... Rude, if nothing else, to judge others"
DeleteRude to who? The sociopath who DOES NOT GIVE A FUCK how you feel?
I'm glad the sociopaths are online here exposing themselves. Unfortunately "empaths" seem to have a little blind spot where Evil is concerned. The very idea of it causes cognitive dissonance in their poor little brains and so they choose not to see what is directly in front of them. Its like the man dressed up as a yellow gorilla who runs across a basketball match in the middle of a game - and nobody notices - because they've got nowhere to put it inside the scaffolding of existing concept.
"God" does not mean "good". This is a corruption of the English language. The real name for "God" is YHWH. It means "I am what I am". That crap they taught you in school about God=Love. its a LIE, made up by a sociopath no doubt in order to make you forget that the first thing the Hebrew's did after Moses brought them down The Commandements is build a giant idol out of GOLD and proceed to get drunk and have a massive orgy.
Ironically, only the sociopaths reading this will understand what I'm trying to say.
Probably this website is just "practice" for when they set up the official "sociopath lobby" and try to talk themselves out of having to go to jail when they hurt and kill and steal and lie because they "couldn't help it" because they have a "mental illness"
And everybody know that persecuting the mentally ill is Evil right? And Evil is bad. Rude even. But...
I have found the ethics and philosophy of individualist market anarchism to be extremely helpful in controlling myself and explaining the world around me in a way that is compatible with my own perceptions.
ReplyDeleteHaving a belief that coercion is "wrong" may sound antithetical to sociopathy, but it also means all authority is "wrong" as well. In many ways anarchism explains the world better than our current world of states where governments mass murder and tyrannize us all while being considered "good".
If you have the mental and physical ability to govern yourself, then you have the "right" to govern yourself. As long as no other unwilling person or their property is harmed, then logically all external compulsory government is tyranny.
I do not hurt others because I loathe tyrants (compulsory, as opposed to voluntary, authority), and do not wish to be what I loathe. I have a problem with inconsistency (it irritates and angers me), so to be consistent I can't act unethically and then complain about it.
Libertarianism (including many types of anarchism) use the NAP (non-aggression principle, or non-aggression axiom) to prove what is "right" or "wrong" through argumentation. Little do they know, it's my only source of morality.
Someone above asked if sociopaths are successful at following their own code of ethics...well, I can't speak for everyone, but since adopting this code of ethics I have been 100% successful. BUT, I gurantee that if pushed I would fall short and assault someone if it pleased me to do so, or if it had a preferable outcome for me (shutting them up). I am not perfect, and cannot change my impulsive nature. What I can do is acknowledge that have broken my ethical code and hate myself for my inconsistency. I can blame my actions on my victims (and do very often), but I cannot blame them for my inconsistency (because it's self contained). This leads me to avoid situations I used to invite, to associate with more like-minded people, and to suppress urges I used to be compelled by.
I am not helpless against "X". "X" is an inanimate object. I have free will and choose to abuse "X". No one holds a gun to my head an makes me use "X". I am responsible for my own weaknesses, and the inconsistency of hating aggression against me and my life while being aggressive to others.
I have yet to break this code of ethics...but I admit it's hard to be faithful to them. I often just want to smash someone's face in for stealing from me, or doing me wrong. But as I've learned in my short time in this life, "carzy" is a behavior, not what you "think" in your head and never tell people. You can think any crazy shit you want...it's acting on it that makes you nuts.
Therefore, for all intents and purposes, anarchism's ethics have made me "sane".
If you asked any of my non-victims how they fealt about NOT being victimized, I'm sure they'd say they appreciated my ethics and found them quite useful.
The ethics are simple: you can't harm, steal from, or defraud anyone. Lying in fraud, and so on. Personal gain? I gain moral superiority over others with flawed and inconsistent ethical codes (like statism, liberalism, conservatism, etc.). It's really auto-rewarding while being therapeutic. The only way to be superior is to be ethical, the only way to be ethical is to be superior. What's for a sociopath to dislike about that?!
This is anarchy. The sociopath's are in control (that's all they ever wanted, right?). Ergo: The mass-murder and tyranny.
DeleteI've also come to the conclusion that inferior sociopaths (those who are statists) are policemen, politicians, and soldiers for the most part. I don't mean the vast majority of those occupations are sociopaths...or even a significant minority...what I mean is, those occupations are disproportionately sociopathic as compared to the general population. Why? Because there is no accountability, monopolies on violence are in place and socially acceptable, and it's expected that you lie, act without emotion, and act with superiority. These jobs draw sociopaths like flies to shit. How do I know? Because before anarchism, all I ever wanted to be was a soldier and a politician. I wanted to legally kill people and then order others to legally kill, with little or no accountability when the public discovered I lied them into a war on false pretenses.
ReplyDeleteG.W. Bush is a sociopath. He lies us into Iraq, has no remorse about it, and in fact I believe enjoyed it. The same can be said for Obama.
If you want to truly understand socipathy, look no further than politics. There you will find liars, mass murderers (by cowardly proxy), and a total disregard for ethics in order to achieve pragmatic self gratifying ends.
That's why I hate them...they are inconsistent. I try very hard to be superior to them. I win by holding true to my code of ethics. They fail by having none.
You don't have sufficiently large delusions of grandeur to attempt to rabble rouse an army of good hearted justice seeking empaths and take down the tyrant who pissed you off?
DeleteGood and bad being purely objective, there's really no point in classifying yourself into them, as they're completely redundant.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I as a Sociopath, could say I fall under some pretense of good. Mind you, I'm still a tremendous prick on a normal day, but I do get a kick out of messing with pontificating or arrogant people, who tend to think themselves better than the usual person. I personally can't stand the holler-than-thou types of people, so put their shit in a twist, I guess it doesn't matter to me whether or not they are pricks, but more often than not they are. If you want to call being a prick to make another prick feel like more of a prick good, then I guess it could be called that.
What activities (one-time or ongoing-patterns) do you do to amuse yourself at the expense of others (the lulz, per se)?
ReplyDeleteI'm dating a man that I think is a sociopath. To be honest, he hasn't done anything outwardly manipulative and hurtful to me - perhaps i'm still useful to him, and, as some of you have said, he's just waiting for the right moment to strike. Maybe he has a code.
ReplyDeleteThe thing that makes me think he's a sociopath is the following:
- He has no empathy and he is as cold as ice. When I tell him about things that upset me, he cannot comprehend them. He looks at me as though he's completely lost. He reacts only if I rationalize my feelings but I don't think he ever understands. When we fight, he simply avoids me. Not because he's "afraid" of my reaction but because he simply doesn't want to deal with the situation - and knowing him, that's the truth. We broke up once and all he had to say was "ok. are we still going on vacation next week." However, he always wants to come back, if I let him back in (but without forcing it) - and it's difficult for me to leave.
- He has a tendency to be promiscuous. I definitely know that he slept with lots of women and that he felt nothing for any of them. I think he's still cheating on me now but I don't think he feels any regret (here objective). To me, It just seems that he thinks that it's something that he does and it's not a point of discussion. However, he always seems to comes back to me and our relationship never changes. I can't imagine him feeling guilty
- He can be manipulative and a liar. It's difficult for me to judge just how much - only based on what I can tell from knowing him for so long (his history that he has shared with me)
- He is a "taker". He doesn't force me to give him things or to pay for things. However, he likes it that I give him stuff (presents, attention, even if I just buy him things that he then pays for himself). However, it seems that he needs to remind himself to give something back - like on birthdays, dinners, etc.
There are other little things that i notice about him but generally he acts quite well around me. He seems content when he's with me - and, for the most part, I am content with him. He makes an effort to do things that are nice for me. He always comes back to me no matter what (or who). And it seems that his calm was actually the medicine that I needed when we met (however, when we fight, that calm drives me mad). The thing that I find strange is that when we're falling asleep together, he sometimes holds me so tight, like I'm a toy he can't get enough of.
However, my point was not to describe all this, but to ask a couple of questions:
- For sociopaths out there. Does this seem about right - does he fit the description?
- I've read that all sociopaths are manipulators that should be avoided at all costs. Is the fact that he's treating me well when we're together, only an illusion? Will he be conniving and manipulative in the end?
- I sometimes feel like he's "chosen" me. Like he has rationally weighted the "pros" and "cons" of being with me and, despite his cheating and everything else, he'll just keep coming back because he's "decided." However, if at some point, I decide to leave myself, he'll just let me go. Does this sound plausible or am I deluding myself?
- He doesn't seem like a deranged / heartless person. He just seems devoid of all empathy and guilt. Is he living by some internal "code"? I wouldn't be surprised if he was - he always seems to have his own sense of what / who he respects and what he holds in high regard.
- If he has a "code", does that make him safe? Or do all sociopaths sometimes break them because they have not empathy to keep it?
Any input would be very interesting to hear.
Thank you...
To me, it seems like he has already pushed you to every boundary possible knowing he can get away with it. You've already been manipulated by this man (although I do prefer the term 'engineered'!) to take him back no matter how much hurt he causes - because he knows you need him as much as he needs you.
DeleteYes that's right, sociopath's have a burning need to feel loved - just like anyone else I'm guessing. And yes, a sociopath is capable of 'love' in certain ways. It feeds the ego and being loved intensely just reinforces the heightened sense of self worth he feels.
But in my experience if you are to feel comfortable in the long term with this guy then you need to give him plenty of space. Otherwise he will get bored and end up breaking his own code and will turn on you, and eventually he will leave. And leave quickly, with either no explanation/a complete cut-off or be very very sinister about the whole thing.
I think he has like you say 'chosen' you. If he really is sociopathic or ASPD (or whatever the fuck you want to call this these days) then his behaviour seems to indicate that he does feel his own type of 'love' for you. And what you have with him right now is probably the best you will get out of him.
So, if you are ok with this being the best you'll get out of this relationship and if you can endure the torment - it seems you can, and he keeps to his code - it seems he can, then you can both make each other feel uniquely special in your own wonderful way.
Just think of it as a trade off or as a way of making this special relationship working. Because a lasting relationship with a sociopath is not impossible if both parties work hard
Your story appeals to me because much of it sounds similar to my sociopath co-worker friend. Thanks for sharing. He somtimes lies to me but I try not to put myself in a position to be lied to often. He is manipulative but mostly with others. I do get manipulated but not in a major way. I tend to realize the manipulation after the fact. I now have a better grasp of his thinking style and I am better able to detect when he is targeting me. However, he can be very kind to me. He will do things for me like run errands or just about what I want him to do. He is honest with money. He seldomly ask me for money and never ask me for things. He however use the tactic of sharing his financial issues or personal problems with me. He use that tactic because it is always almost guaranteed that I will respond to his situation..... so why beg. He has an independence about himself so it is once in a while he mention the financial issues. He will borrow money from me and pay me back at the agreed time. He shows kindness to the other co-workers and will do stuff for them too. Not sure if the kindness is some sort of cover-up which I doubt because he does big favors for other people too. He does not express gratitude or appreciation much. Getting on his case about this does little to help. He is inconsistent in this regard so I give less because I can't stand the ingratitude.
DeleteMind you. I do have a number of challenges with him in relation to mutual friendship. I get the feeling he wants me as a friend for some reason. He has shared a great deal about his life with me good and bad. I do show him much love. He does drain my emotional and spiritual energy at times. I would then take a break from the friendship for weeks or a long as I wish. During this time we deal only on a professional level. I put aside the friendship. Whenever I resume personal communication and friendship it's as if he was dying to talk to me. Whenever I want my space he leaves me alone though.
In recent times I try not to let his lack of emotions get to me. I simply accept the fact that he lacks the capacity in that respect. I have cut back on being overly kind to him. My friend does have a dangerous side to him but manage to keep it in check. If somebody does something that really, really hurts him he would express his upset and the revenge he has in mind to me. I am the sounding board. For whatever good it might do I would try to talk him out of doing something stupid. He does listen at times. Even if he remains headstrong about revenge then as long as he is away from the situation he will fine in a while. He does make an effort not to hurt anybody.
SocialPal thanks for the insight that you have shared in respect to the post you replied to.
Your boyfriend does not fit the profile. But you do.
DeleteIf anyone here has a dangerous side, it's you. Your boyfriend should jump ship now and save himself.
Again, I think your boyfriend is a particular personality type - an INTJ. The things you are describing sound to me like typical manifestations of the INTJ thought process viewed from the other side of the spectrum. It's very difficult for others to grasp/believe/accept the way our minds work but as a textbook INTJ, I can easily explain his behavior in almost every situation you have presented.
DeleteFor example:
Delete"He has no empathy and he is as cold as ice. When I tell him about things that upset me, he cannot comprehend them. He looks at me as though he's completely lost. He reacts only if I rationalize my feelings but I don't think he ever understands."
An INTJ 'thinks' his feelings instead of feeling them and because we do not experience emotion the way others do, we find it almost impossible to relate to the emotional experiences of others. To us it literally seems as if at any given moment, for any reason at all, any individual can be having any random emotion in response to any given event. We view the world of feelings as one big chaotic, unpredictable mess that we will never get a handle on so instead of wasting our time fighting a losing battle, we simply try to avoid it altogether.
Anon September 9, 2012
DeleteI don't have a dangerous side. I don't con, lie, manipulate or hurt people. That is not who I am. The person of whom I spoke about does have a dark side coupled with what seems like a good side. His dark side I did not mention.
No. I am the one who should jump ship and leave because the friendship is not healthy and never will be. A rollercoaster relationship with no form of improvement is never a good one.
I notice that a lot of "empathetic" people are extremely afraid of themselves. It's like, if they look deeper they'll find "bad" or "evil" qualities about themselves they think they don't agree with. Personally, I don't believe that anybody is good or bad. I don't even know what those words really mean. But I think that's the reason why the people you're referring to are inconsistent; What they want to be, the goodness that they strive to achieve, does not match what's going on deep inside and so to a particular eye, especially a logical one, nothing that person does is really going to make sense.
ReplyDeleteRe: sociogirl March 11, 2010 9:26 pm
ReplyDeleteThe irony here is that you are the one with the screwed-up/messed-up mind but you can't see it unfortunately. Remember that science has proven that a part of your brain was not developed so that is why you play nasty mind games for the fun of it. It really is not as funny as you think.
Another irony is that if the table is turned on you and somebody played nasty mind game on you then you (short circuit) or (blow a fuse) therefore becoming violent or revengeful. You can't stand your own medicine. That sound like a weakness to me.
Just saying.
The immediate above response is in relation to the below post on March 9, 2010.
Deletesociogirl wtote:
quote: ("Thewell Laine, that is exactly my point...i do not feel that way. i cant say i have ever felt guilt in the pure sense of the feeling. i pretty much whatever i have done to hurt you, youprobably deserved whether it be your stupidity, your weakness or just being at the wrong place at the wrong time. either way, you should have been more aware and maybe next time you will be wiser, which just ups the stakes of my game. it would now be more of a challenge. i don't kill people or anything like that, its all about mind f***ing someone that I completely enjoy.")
This has been a fascinating read. I’ve read the few books on this condition and found it missing a certain element—indeed the voice of the sociopath himself. I listened to Michael Mosley, the neuroscientist talk about his psychopathic brain scan. I think that there are infinite levels of sociopathic behavior, as with any individual who does not fit into "normal" behavior. The idea that a sociopath often leads a productive life and functions perhaps even better in certain vocations has caused me to ask why and how?
DeleteI note that sociopaths think of themselves as introspective and logical, and that "empaths" are ridiculously easy to read. It is how I am able to read a person who is overly effusive and emotional. They do seem pathetic and like an open book. And after a while it is difficult to feel anything for them except frustration and even contempt because they allow themselves to be so vulnerable and be laughed at by others if not to their faces then behind their backs.
If you have no emotional feelings then all normal people must seem transparent to you. I now understand the logical reason why the smarter sociopaths do not make a habit of hurting others. It is messy and can backfire. Personally I am not afraid of you, as I’ve met people like you and even if I didn't know what a sociopath was at the time, an alarm went off that simply made me distance myself. We must assume that sociopaths are less affective on some more than others because even though sociopaths are charismatic and charming, they simply cannot fool everyone. These people may be harder to spot for you because they instinctively stay away from you.
However, it seems that what you call introspection appears to be an exercise of comparison and contrast to emulate the behavior of others; to fit in for whatever purposes; to curb your natural impulses so as not to deprive yourselves of whatever needs you have for whatever you might get from your “resources.” To understand yourselves so that you may better function with your handicap--for whatever interpretation you may have--remains a lack of feelings, and that is a handicap. We are a social animal, and we have these emotions in place to preserve the whole over the few in order for the species itself to survive. An example of sociopathic behavior is in our very society amongst the rich who would rather destroy people’s lives-- earth itself--to make themselves richer no matter what the consequences.
That you feel smarter than others is a natural extension coming from someone who is able to manipulate others without guilt or remorse and to use people as "resources." The greatest sadness is for those of you who understand enough that you cannot have the feeling of an “empath,” and must live with your isolation, and possess a sense for that loss.
I got onto this website because I've suspected that Mitt Romney is a sociopath with his facility for lying, his ability to switch positions from one moment to the next, and his strange behavior as a youth in college where youth always act out, Mitt chose to dress like a cop so he could scare and harass people. (Perhaps there is a little more than just a sociopath in him.) However, I am more convinced than ever that Mitt is missing some basic human emotions. Consider that in the beginning of his campaign, people just couldn’t get themselves to like him—-so much so that they sought out a slew of monumental idiots such as Gingrich, Perry, Santorum and Cain, but as much as Mitt stuck in the GOP's craw, he remained the cream of the crap.
Now the Right has swallowed the bad taste of Mitt and convinced themselves that he is their savior. Mitt though stumbling in the beginning, inexperienced with manipulating half the nation, has quickly mastered the art and drastically improved his game to the point that people have fooled themselves into believing that they actually like Mitt Romney.
Thanks for the education, Sociopaths. Do not let anybody tell you that you serve no purpose in this complex society.
empaths and sociopaths both, watch and learn from master: Obama He knows all the buzzwords about "social justice" and "diversity" and "sustainability". I have never seen Americans drool in such unashamed admiration for their president before. Never before in history.
DeleteActually it was found in that same study that sociopaths tend to react in a less violent way to negative stimuli than the normal person. Seeing as sociogirl has stated that she enjoys mind f**king people I would think that she would enjoy the challenge of someone giving her a taste of her own medicine. It's a game to her, and what is a game without a decent challenge? Also life is all a matter of perspective, if you can see life as a game, I would say you are better off than most, not worse as you seem to think. There is a saying "Work as though you don't need the money, and live as though you have nothing to lose." Seeing life as a game seems to be the perfect way to live that saying. The only qualms would be the morals, and morals are in no way a concrete matter. They are entirely subjective. While I may believe that my morals are right in order to live my life, I don't have the arrogance to presume that my morals are the only way. Just a thought ;)
Delete".Why is the christian right against helping poor people?"
ReplyDeleteGaaaaa! This again!!!! For the twelve thousandth time -- we are NOT against helping the poor. We do a LOT for the poor. However, many people wrongly think the opposite, for 2 main reasons...
(1) Even though we do a lot for the poor, we are biblically forbidden to brag about it. So a lot of people honestly just don't know. All they see, is that we tend to vote against the welfare state (more on that later). A few years ago, a liberal professor did a scholarly survey of the charity issue, and, as he freely admits, going into the study he expected that secularist liberals like himself, who politically profess the most concern for the poor, would be the most charitable cohort...
He was SHOCKED to discover that the opposite was true: the lion's share of the donating (even factoring out church supporrt) and volunteering for the poor, was done by religious conservatives -- the very people that he, as a liberal, had been conditioned to believe "didn't care".
To be fair, the dividing line of charity wasn't conservative vs liberal, but religous vs secular. The extremely small number of "religous liberals" and "secular conservatives" that turned up in his study, followed the charitable patterns consistent with those of similar religious views. But since religion generally has a tendency to make people both more charitable and more conservative, it's fair to say that conservatives as a group tend to be a lot more charitable.
(2) We are against wasteful, ineffective government "anti-poverty" programs that do not actually fix poverty, and indeed often make it worse. Voting against the welfare STATE does NOT mean you are against welfare. Again, the study cited above, showed that the people who gave the most personally, were the most likely to vote against the government programs.
The study results, published in a book
Deletehttp://www.amazon.com/Who-Really-Cares-Compassionate-Conservatism/dp/0465008232
Wow, its like reading my biography. I'm a christian and a sociopath and I often use my religion help shape my code.
ReplyDeleteFor myself, I'm an empath and a writer. Thanks M.E. for your article in Psychology Today, otherwise I would never have found your blog. Which I must say is a treasure trove of perspective on a rare, and frightening (for empaths) psychological condition.
ReplyDeleteWorldwide, there are something like 250 million psychopaths (1-4% of the population). As someone who is to one degree or another enslaved to his limbic system, I find that realization uncomfortable, but not much more so than the knowledge that under the right conditions even (perhaps especially) the most empathic individuals are capable of astonishing acts of cruelty, given the right "push".
And now here is the real meat of the question:
Sociopaths for the most part experience diminished or other "abnormal" emotional response and use a kind of "code" or shorthand for processing snap-decisions and the like normally processed through the limbic system correct?
Then doesn't it stand to reason that the Sociopath is aware that such a code is basically arbitrary from the outset? Is that why you implied that the Sociopath's code has no intrinsic meaning or purpose, especially given that whatever shape that code ultimately takes, the code is by nature an incomplete article with inconsistent overlap (cracks at the "edges of the mask" if you will)?
Why is it then that so few Sociopaths seem to have adopted the local criminal code or the regulations and codes of conduct for their place of work into their codes? Is it because of the complexity or potentially poor cost/benefit ratio of being a living example of "by-the-book"?
I like the point you bring up, and I also wonder, what keeps this "code" from changing? Or does it change as new information is added? If it is changing then what is it that makes it worth sticking to?
Delete"Why is the christian right against helping poor people? " They're not. They give something like 3 times as much money to charities as do liberal secularists. (One of the reasons Nietzsche despised Christianity was because it didn't let natural selection weed out the weak.) You're confusing wanting to help poor people with wanting more government entitlements. Pretty sloppy thinking.
ReplyDeleteWell said.
DeleteObviously, assuming the sociopath is not mentally challenged, the sociopath is capable of subscribing to a moral code, just as any semi-intelligent person is capable of following the logic of any argument from its premise to its conclusion. The problem is that initial normative premise. A true sociopath lacks the emotion from which acceptance of that first normative premise derives. Adherence to any moral philosophy (which is ultimately an elaborate argument, beginning with a normative premise and ending with a conclusion relevant to some action in every day life) is ultimately emotionally based. There is no logic to the world of normativity. Yes, you can use logic to derive a value, but only if you start with a premise that already presupposes some other value and then you use logic to maximize that value. So, my point is that, to the extent that someone is a sociopath (keeping in mind that many people with even a plethora of sociopathic traits may not be totally devoid of emotion), they are incapable of true morality. Let's not forget that. I've read a lot of the posts on this site and I've noticed that there is a wide range of view points and identities expressed, from self-proclaimed sociopaths to people struggling with empathy for other clinical reasons to victims of sociopaths. The intelligent sociopaths already know this, but I hope that everyone else will not be swayed by others' efforts to romanticize sociopathy. This is not an episode of "Dexter" - this is the real world, and in the real world, to the extent that someone is a genuine sociopath, that person is amoral.
ReplyDeleteHere's my first post: What do all of you make of the Faustian bargain?
ReplyDelete...Aside from the Faustian idea..I'm an "empath"...I'd like to have conversations with you. You can ask me all sorts of interrogation questions if you wish, and if you are not repulsed by my empathy (though you can only really know so much through an internet chat)..I'd like to do the same to you.
ReplyDeleteI have a unique inquiry about sociopathic/empathic perspective:
ReplyDeleteI am a self identified sociopath. I was taken by CPS at 8 months old and put with a good family that was not well-off. From a very early age i became acutely aware of people's perceptions of me and started playing into them (as most kids do). The older I got, the more I used my mouthpiece... understanding that if you had something to talk about (validity/substance) then people are more interested in what you have to say. In high school, almost every subject was so simple (except math)... I was disruptive, unable to stay still, and above all else - i was a social butterfly.
I was always the one who would listen to people's problems, I had a way of getting people to open up (usually breaking the ice by telling them my experiences of being adopted), and through listening a great deal to many different emotional topics I found myself "absorbing" their memories/experiences - if someone is telling me a personal anecdote, i look to the side (avoiding eye contact during the story) and am able to connect with them... become them... and live the memory as it is being told to me.
Out of high school i started waiting tables. I made more money than the managers because I could multitask, and I quickly adapted the "service smile." During this time i figured out that I learn a lot through conversation, and with an interest in people/psychology, I began to observe the numerous cultural, religious, and demographical differences that make each one of us unique.
I went to college and chose hospitality for a career as it enabled me to get paid to talk to people and not be in sales or marketing. While I was there I made many acquaintances, and maybe a handful of friends. I paid my own way through, $32k later i have my degree.
I have held a steady job in hospitality since i was 17 and im 29 now. 4 companies in 12 years in a high turn-over environment...
I love people watching, helping people, taking pictures, traveling, learning, and practicing progressive thought (i turn the box upside down to stand on top of it to get a better perspective around me).
Oddly enough though, I have a severe disconnect with my emotions. It is a frustrating life i live when I look at people as incapable of success (most of them). If you give people a sense of power an a choice, they will usually self-destruct... i have observed it, ive listened to it, and ive adopted many ways of dealing with unfavorable situations... i feel like a chameleon in an otherwise slow motion concrete jungle.
If you can understand that time is the most important thing that we have, then you must also understand that time is cyclical.
Cycles are important: Weather cycles, tidal cycles, menstrual cycles, bipolar cycles, etc.
My personal belief is that bipolarism or manic/depression is the next genetic evolution we as humans are going through. Our body has been where it is at for 5000 years (probably longer) and the next evolution is going to be in our head. If you overlay the precipitation cycle (body, gas, cloud, rain) with a bipolar cycle (depressed, boosters, manic, red flags) then it is easy to infer that our body (about 80% water) is naturally complacent - water will find the easiest route going downhill possible... thats how rivers run. Efficiency is the flip-side to that coin though.
From what I understand, bipolarism is 70% likely to be genetically passed on by one parent, and 90% or more if both parents are bipolar. People call their experiences "ups and downs" and chalk it up to life... but it seems that we are all going crazy and we dont understand it.
In my opinion, all sociopaths/psychopaths are bipolar - but not all bipolar people are sociopaths/psychopaths.
Sorry ran out of room :)
DeleteEmpaths - people who are able to feel/perceive on a different level. I believe that I posses qualities of being empathic. I may not "feel" emotions like others do, but I think it enables me to be the unbiased 3rd person perspective that people need to hear advice from. My biggest passion is people, but i feel this internal conflict when helping people: the less i know about you, the more I am willing to help... the more i know about you, usually the less I am willing to help.
Questions:
1) how is it possible to connect with people and not feel anything? I understand emotions, I can describe them, and emulate them... but I dont feel them. But, i feel other people's emotions (good and bad) when it is a personal story they are telling me.
2) I have my "code" that I live by and try to consciously not hurt people, but people frustrate me to no end. I am 29, but are there any people on this forum that have lived to be 50+ with these same characteristics? I am interested in how my mind may work differently the older i get.
3) Should I feel bad about being emotionally disconnected? showing affection, gratitude, and appreciation has always been hard for me... and in relationships most people (men and women) need to have those things for the relationship to be healthy. I do show them in unique and thoughtful ways, but they have been describes as "premeditated" and forced. It is frustrating when it doesnt come naturally.
My questions are complex, but any perspectives on this type of emotional combination are greatly appreciated :)
Firstly, I am impressed with your eloquence. After a few weeks of randomly visiting this site, I am a little worried that this is all an elaborate set-up. But that's just he paranoia talking.
DeleteSo yes, I am am empath. Specifically one with diagnosed with Type I bipolar disorder.
With regard to bipolar disorder being a possible evolutionary "leap" - dear God I hope not.
With a single bipolar parent I believe bipolar disorder is inherited about 30% of the time and with two bipolar parents the odds rise to something like 70% heritable. Its part of the reason why I am choosing not to have children.
For me, my disorder is a curse. I discovered it in late high-school and despite my high test scores in all subjects as well as being part of the school football team, I was deeply ostracized by many, if not most students an I couldn't understand why.
Once I got out of high school, I entered college and fell flat on my face academically. Since then, I have bounced from job to job working no more than about three or four months before being "let go" - usually without a solid explanation as to why (i.e. no specific incidents or behaviors or attitudes or anything I could conceivably "watch out for" in the future).
Of course I KNOW why - I have a 3-month manic-depressive "cycle" and nobody wants to deal with a guy who's "a totally different person" every couple of months. I also don't get along at all with extremely passive-aggressive personalities. I need direct and explicit feedback in order to modify my behavior.
After about 7 years of this kind of thing, my CV has a totally awful job history that makes securing new employment in anything other than short-term labor positions even HARDER. Thankfully, I've been able to start selling a few short stories and articles and that's helped keep me afloat but if you have any idea that bipolar disorder is a "selective advantage", your kidding yourself.
One of the truths I discovered about artists is that the only reason we ARE artists is because we CAN'T do anything else. In my case, the driving force is more financial than psychological.
To take a moment and answer a question posed above:
In my opinion the only thing Faust tried to do wrong was escape his bargain. In the end he was not motivated by regret for what he had done, but fear of the impending consequences. Frankly, for a guy who graduated from medical school you'd think he wouldn't be that fucking stupid! The entire point of it being a "Devil's bargain" is that the punishment is inescapable.
I see that as a good allegory for certain sociopathic behaviors. We as a society here in the West have allowed the construction of financial and political systems where short-term thinking and short-term gains completely outweigh the benefits of long-term planning and long-term stability. Are we really surprised then that so many Sociopaths flock to and thrive in volatile environments such as politics and finance and law? Are we any less surprised that these institutions based on short-term reward are proving virtually impossible to repair or reform because they are THE VERY MEANS NEEDED to enact such reforms?
If you'll pardon my bluntness Mr. or Ms. Anonymous, I sincerely doubt you are a true sociopath or a psychopath. I at one time considered myself "emotionally tone deaf" - I had gotten used to suppressing my vocal cues and facial expression rather than learn how to properly express myself in personal conversation. I am obviously not qualified to make a diagnosis but I strongly believe you have probably had one or more similar psychotic bipolar episodes rather than a full-blown sociopathic personality disorder, though co-morbidity of the two conditions is possible.
DeleteTo respond to your latter questions:
1) It could be possible that you are consciously or unconsciously suppressing your own emotional responses to events but are allowing yourself to empathize with the experiences of others. Do you only get this feeling from other people or have you felt vicarious emotion from characters in a book, tv show or movie?
2) I'm not yet thirty myself so I can't really help you on that one other than to point out that you can only learn so much from the experiences of others. Ultimately whatever happens as you and I age will be unique to our own experiences and circumstances.
3) I think at this point it would be apt to mention Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory. The irony of "feeling bad about being emotionally disconnected" is palpable. The fact that you have a (seemingly) reduced emotional response does not need to detract from your ability to form lasting connections with other people as long as you are willing to learn and adapt (however reluctantly) and how patient they are (again, however reluctantly). From my own experience, maintaining a personal relationship as a bipolar individual has been about maintaining clear and open communication. "Subtle like a brick" has served me well with family and friends. I'd love to know more about how you maintain a "service attitude" as that sounds like the total opposite of my coping method.
Lastly with regard to the idea of an "evolutionary leap". Homo sapiens is actually closer to 200,000 years old, and we have been adapting with every generation to changes in our environment. It stands to reason that with such huge changes in the last two hundred years, that differences in the information-handling ability in the brain would be a major "selection factor" at this point in time. As we speak, greater and greater attention is being placed by society on a seemingly growing (or just more noticeable) subset of young people and children with "spectrum disorders" like Autism, bipolar disorder, and antisocial personality disorder. All three of these "spectra" are in some way connected to information-processing, emotional response, and social interaction. Compared to the RADICALLY different information landscape presented to human beings just before the First World War, the demands being placed on our brains are VASTLY different than anything they have previously had to contend with. Because this has all happened within a single generation, it is EXCEEDINGLY less likely to lead to some "great leap forward" than it is for mankind to create an environment he can no longer survive in. That's just how I see it.
I was by no means saying that bipolarism is the next best thing since sliced bread, but emphasizing the fact that "mental disorders" are not disorders at all. All autism and others are is conditions that are genetically unique.
DeleteBipolarism has been around since written records... and as time goes on, specific cases like Vincent Van Gogh's ear and Edgar Allen Poe's The Raven highlight the "starving artist syndrome. We still do not fully comprehend the functions of the brain, nor the potential of the unused 90%.
Without going into great detail for lack of space, I have had a lack of emotions through out my life and I use my cycles to creatively conceptualize my ideas. I can see a horrible accident where people die and have no reaction to it, but in the same respect I can feel happy when i help people, but i do not laugh at jokes unless they are random.
To be so quick to shoot down someone's situation because it is not at all like your own is called cognitive dissonance... I used to do it all the time when I was younger before i realized that the people just couldnt help the hand they were dealt - just like genetics.
I never once said "great leap forward." It is most likely in the beginning stage of the evolution since we only identified the physiological makeup of our brain within the last 2 centuries (as u said about changing environments).
I do agree that in a radically changing environment that we live it, entertainment and distraction based stimuli are what causes us to constantly move on instead of dealing with the immediate problems we create. Being able to process information at a higher capacity is/can be an advantage if the person can learn themselves... unfortunately most people dont take the time to figure themselves out.
People want the quick fix like the drugs, which unless they are the right combination, can be a horrible experience of emotional turmoil as the medication is adjusted/changed... to me, if it is a natural thing why not let nature take its coarse? survival of the fittest doesnt fit into the civilized world we have created... so in affect it causes a situation of normal people who want to give, and people who will take all that you will give.
I fill my emotional void by giving - because i can. i have been burned, but I continue on my path because I it wont help me to get hung up on the downsides of humanity. I hate what I see, and I help what I can because i can stay emotionally disconnected while I give advice from personal experience.
The answer your inquiry about the connection i feel when people tell me their experiences:
I only feel it with people, not movies or books. To describe it again: I become them and can see the places and things they are talking about. I often ask if the color of the car or couch and I get it right a lot. If they are embellishing the truth it is cloudy, or if they are telling me a lie - i just - dont - see - it. Many people have told me to read "The Giver" in which I read last month. it was an interesting read.
To address the friendship connections: all the people who i hold as friends understand that I wont be around all the time. it may be a few days, months and sometimes years in between seeing them... but we pick up like we saw each other yesterday. It helps me curb the intensity of the consistent cycles I have (seasonally). The thing about the precipitation cycle being a direct application of a bipolar cycle only makes sense if you understand fluidity. Microcosmic and macrocosmic patterns are all through nature... why not take the leap that CYCLES ARE IMPORTANT since we see them in everything we do everyday?
I can't speak to your theory on precipitation cycles, as I am indeed missing some of the underlying concepts you speak of. Your description however, reminds me of Seasonal Affective Disorder, which I understand is often co-morbid with Bipolar-type conditions.
DeleteWith regard to your comments on going without medication and survival of the fittest(which I CAN speak to) I think part of the issue is an over-simplification of the natural selection processes at work today. One thing many people fail to acknowledge is that human society no longer competes as individuals but as interconnected groups.
This results in "survival of the fittest" being recast as "survival of the best team". In such a situation being an "outlier" is inherently disadvantaging. Using medication or other means to better control one's ability to function in society is, to me, a much more acceptable risk than you might perceive it to be.
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DeleteBeing a sociopath myself, I feel like these are reasonable answers to your questions Anon:
ReplyDelete1) One reason we (sociopaths) "connect" with people is to absorb their knowledge, their emotions, their way of life. We do this as a means toward understanding humans as a whole and use this information to advance our own lives. Also we find pleasure in getting into someone else's head. Basically we enjoy exerting control over another individual, because it gives us a sense of power. When you say you "feel other people's emotions" you are most likely processing their complex feelings on a rational level with a superior intellect. You react accordingly, because you don't want to come off as a heartless bastard, thus exposing yourself leading to a loss of control.
2) I also have my own "code" that I follow. I optimistically believe that "good sociopaths" can exist and attempt to lead my live in such a way. I never attempt to exploit or hurt someone that I feel is undeserving. On the other hand there are people out there that piss me off too. These are the people that I tend to "bring down the hammer" on. Unfortunately I am fairly close to your age so I can't attempt to explain what happens when we get older. I will say though, that all this calculating and manipulation can be quite mentally exhausting, so it is possible that our actions will take a toll on us later on in life. What I think my saving grace is, is that I also consider myself an introvert. What this means is that while I enjoy interacting and toying with people, I can detach from social situations easily, and I even prefer solidarity. I view my "me-time" as a brief mental reprieve and a way to enjoy the finer things in life like music, books, video games, and a nice walk in the park. In a social setting, if my influence starts to wane or is somehow superseded by someone else (possibly another sociopath), I simply tend to remove myself from the setting (which is something most sociopaths hate by the way) and go find someone else to bug or just go home and play a video game. This is because I realize the effort required to reestablish control is just not worth it, and I can find better things to do with my time. Also being a sociopath myself makes it relatively easy to spot other sociopaths. If I ever suspect my closest friends (who I care for dearly and never attempt to influence unless I truly believe it is in their best interest) of being marked by another sociopath with cruel intentions (one of my favorite movies by the way), I do everything in my power to undermine the other sociopath and attempt to expose them for what they are.
3) There is no reason for you to feel bad for being emotionally disconnected. If you truly are a sociopath, then that is just the way you were born and the way God made you. You have to approach relationships in different ways than empaths do. If you are really interested in forming a "meaningful" relationship with someone else then you have to not only consider your own needs but the needs of your partner as well. Basically if they are happy then this will reflect back to you, and you can always take some satisfaction away from the fact that it was your influence that made them happy. This is simply another type of control we can exhibit, which to other made be viewed as something negative, but the fact remains that your partner is happy and in turn, so are you. It's a win-win.
I have to say, I like your way of thinking. and Cruel Intentions is also my favorite movie. I truly think at times I was a very bad sociopath in a past life which is why I'm an empath now (my punishment so-to-speak) though you seem to have a very interestingly mischievous attitude.
DeleteLmao, a sociopath blog/convention where sociopaths yearn acceptance and use each other to try and build acceptance in society, Halarious! If you so badly want acceptance, this is not how to earn it, you have to get your sociopathetic butts on the Street with signs and demand it lol
ReplyDeleteP.S. Curious: What would your signs read. Lol
Love,
Normalitisha
You lack the ability to grasp what this blog is... its not for acceptance, its a thread that shows that not all sociopaths are bad people. Imagine knowing that you are different, and that society will recoil from a simple expression that "I am a sociopath" mainly due to the lack of understanding about how the physiological variation from the norm affects the decision making processes. Textbook explanations would say that we are detached, but I simply say that I look at everything objectively instead of emotionally.
DeleteWithout the restrictions of emotional confusion, logical intuition plays a huge part in a business oriented mind... so Normalitisha, please do not be so shallow as to think this thread is an attempt to find acceptance. Honestly, fuck being accepted by a society that is inhierently corrupted by the allure of personal gain. Happy trails ;-)
I agree completely with the last sentence. I accept the darkness, the negativity,the hate in my life, but I don't let it consume me. I try (on a daily basis) to find an equilibrium between my good and evil. My Jeckel and Hyde per say.
ReplyDeleteIn school, they would always tell me that I was a naughty boy. They tried to reform me, I refused to change. And now I've become a naughty man.
ReplyDeleteAn old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy.
ReplyDelete“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”
The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
That is my code, I've loved it ever since the first time I read it. I try to feed the white wolf (as I call the "good" one) as much as possible. It's hard since the black one has grown extremely strong over the years, but I manage.
I am a sociopath and I like to think of myself as a "good" person, probably even more so than most neurotypicals. Emotion doesn't get in my way when reasoning, and I believe that I am more consistent and generally less of a scumbag than "regular humans".
It's true that we are hardwired to be "bad", but in the end every individual has to decide for himself. I try my best not to take the black wolf take control, but I have to admit.. I like him. I only try to use him on people I deem "bad", though.
Evil is just a point of view.
I don't think you are hard wired to be "bad" so much as you have a different view of how things work. While I may be an empath, seeing the world through emotions, you see it through logic. Emotion can dictate bad deeds as much as logic. While someone could be driven to kill because it seems the simplest and most logical course of action, people are even more likely to kill because it felt right at the time.
DeleteThe difference for me is "empaths" as you call us wouldn't kill our own children for the insurance money if we knew we could get away with it.
ReplyDeleteWe allow babies with no brain to die, what about a child with no soul? There should be a prenatal test for sociopathy.
DeleteA scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”
ReplyDeleteThe frog is satisfied, and they set out. But in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”
Replies the scorpion: “It’s my nature…”
So, I have been married to my husband for 15 years. He has "cheated" on me numerous times although he only admits to 3x. He constantly flirts and has "relationships" with other women. Funny he always tells me about them and that I would really like them. His lies are smooth as butter and always have been. I find things occasionally like receipts from "adult" purchases. He can be violent and jealous at times but has curbed this for the most part over the years. I'm not sure if I should believe anything he says too me at this point and have pretty much concluded that he is a sociopath.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I have seen him show true emotion many times over the years. For no personal gain. He goes out of his way to help others, even if it put himself out. He s a good dad, but sometimes overly harsh and structured with them. I'm not sure this all fits. Are there varying degrees of sociopathy. He follows a Judo-Christan guide I think. "Rules for himself". He struggle with it though.
I'm not leaving. I love him and always have. I don't believe that he enjoys hurting me. He is sweet and kind to me and I actually enjoy his bluntness and view of society.
So, how do I deal with it. It is a struggle for me. I have been the jealous crazy wife and I have gotten to the point now where I just try not to look. I kind of think that I should just stop caring but that does something to my "love" for him. I have to just turn it all off. He won't leave me and he loves me the best way he can. It is difficult. Any tips from those of you who are "sociopaths" ?
MONSTERS DISGUSTING ALL OF YOU Horrible ones.
ReplyDeleteTrue emphat
DeleteI like this quote of the empaths really drinking the kool-aid. As someone who considers myself an empath I can agree that is, in essence, what we do. As a very emotional being it only works to believe that we are doing what is innately "right." Seeing as we are so concerned with the well being of others we have to believe that we are in the right, otherwise we would go crazy. Though I seem to keep seeing as I research sociopaths (I have an interest in what seems to be the flip side of my coin) many sociopaths can be very good social chameleons, if they so choose. Empaths don't really get that choice, we just are. We tend to blend into any group that we happen to settle into for any time, and find ourselves being driven by their emotions and motivations more than our own. Even now, after reading only a few experts from your blog, I find myself sounding more like your writing style, than I was ten minutes ago. This is not something I say to defend the empaths ways or beliefs, only as my own perception of how we feel and react to things, presented in contrast to what you seem to be presenting as the sociopaths way of a "mental short-cut" I do wonder though how your mental shortcut works.
ReplyDeleteFor example everything that I decide is based on emotion, and I do mean everything. I can't tell you what I want for dinner in the morning, because I have no idea what I will feel like having at dinner time. I only know what I want in the present. This makes for an extremely flexible idea of everything. Nothing is ever resolute or finite, and the only easy choices are those that require immediate action or response. The serious downside to this, however, is that I find myself at times completely lost from the person I believe myself to be. If surrounded by the wrong people I can be led to do things I would normally abhor, and often without realizing where others end and I begin until it's too late. I'm sure to you this is as confusing as your way of processing things is to me. I'm interested to know what that way of processing is though. And of course this is open to anyone that would like to respond, in fact the more answers the better.
I also want to add as one of the empaths drinking the whole glass of kool-aid, the question presented that deems guilt as the driving factor behind doing right seems to be a very limited perspective. I've never been religious so much as spiritual and it seems to me that people should want to do what's right, not for fear of reprisal, but because it is the right thing to do. Though as that is a very philosophical point it does lead to the question of what is truly "right?" Though above anything else I do think that we should all be able to entertain a thought, without succumbing to it as a belief. It's nice to see the world from the other side of the looking glass every now and then. I'm going to stop now before I fall on any other cliches that I may have left out.
there are, is there not, two types of guilt. one is sentimental guilt for which no reasonable person/ adult can feel or have problems with and selfish guilt or 'catholic' guilt for internalized sense of what is a good thing and what is at the core of ones 'being' a bad sense of something has gone wrong and you had a part or did/ or didn't do something to stop it from happening.
ReplyDeleteDifficult as it is to hold up sometimes I just try to with with the whole "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" code.
ReplyDeleteI have tried religion, but it's empty of anything except the code I follow anyway.
I absolutely think sociopaths can be morally good people. In fact I would argue that sociopaths have the potential to be more effective citizens of society. Because I am not clouded by emotions as more empathetic people are, I make decisions based on logic, reason, and common sense. I'm charitable, kind, and compassionate because I know that will improve society.
ReplyDeleteWhat a load of horse shit! I find it amusing that all of you who advocate staying silent after cheating(and yes it IS cheating) comfort yourself by saying its the most logical thing to do and add how moral it is cause you are really doing it to save others heart ache and pain. such martyrs all of you.
ReplyDeleteyou lie and stay silent cause you know if your partner were to find out they would leave or do the same. It consequence that keep you silent. Of all the options one could employ after an indiscretion remaining silent is actually the most self centered. You could choose to leave your partner knowing that you have no intention of being able to deliver on the promise of most relationships: honesty. and simply live the rest of your lives seeking out partners you can actually be more liberal with. There is no shortage of men and women willing to have open relationships.
make no mistake, I think anyone who takes this tact is a coward. you deserve your small empty lives. i should not be so harsh, i understand it must be like asking the blind to picture the sky but the way you congratulate yourselves for for lying is infuriating.
I never cheat, but when I stop loving my partner I will tell her the same day and will let her go.
ReplyDeleteFascinating blog!
ReplyDeleteI've ready many posts from people here because I've been curious to know
more about the world of sociopaths/psycopaths. I've come to realize that things
doesn't seem to be as black and white as most want it to be when it comes to
empathy, feelings and different behaviors.
Perhaps it's a selective thing? For example, if you read the news and see something about
world hunger, war or people suffering, you probably don't give too much thought
about it, and at the end of the day, you just move on. Like you have more important
things on your mind and you simply don't give a shit.
One thing I have been wondering about is the effects of alcohol. Some people
can get agressive, and other can get very emotional and express more "loving" thoughts
when consuming alcohol. Has any non "empaths" here felt anything different under the
influence of alcohol?
Another thing I've been wondering about that I've read is that some (many?) socipaths
are very impulsive and because of it, may not always make wise decisions because they
act too fast and are not thinking things through? From what I've come to understand,
the smart ones are able to get through without too much incidents in society because
they have adapted and are good at emulating moral behaviors. It's a smart move and am
I wrong in assuming that not everyone want's to fist fight unless they feel it's necessary?
On the other hand, I've read that some have an urge to get thrills at the cost of other
people's well being, that is messing and fucking with people. Is this an urge that is
difficult to resist? Do you get too bored if you cannot live out those urges?
Thanks for any responses. :)
Harvard Student, Wealth Manager, Pursuer of Potential
ReplyDeleteParameters for this comment:
I've never publicly shared my ideas on the subject. I won't be proofing this since it's anonymous. I'm sure this comment will be very self-centric, as it will be a break from academic writing. If I offend you, this probably isn't the best thread to cry me a river on so try to enjoy a different perspective.
So I’ve been told that I am compartmental, principled sociopath, extremely objective, a/o very manipulative. In short, I began a career in financial services, study at Harvard, am in a 5+ year relationship and I've never truly confided in anyone.
It seems the only thing I genuinely recognize as off limits is targeting innocence. Since I was in grade school I would prey on bullies or tough/popular/show-off classmates because I viewed them as being game to compete against others; especially if they unjustly picked on others. Innocence though, goes for most children, naïve house pets, and highly sheltered adolescence/adults. In these cases, I view the subjects/people as defenseless or helpless. I've been viewed as empathetic by my family because at a young age I learned how to read emotions/truth/lie from other people so as to emulate them when I went to "sell," something. This was not crying when I didn't get a desired toy/candy rather, stealing it next time without mention to not raise suspicion or to barter with my mom. I found success at 8 years of age by borrowing a rake, shovel, or lawn mower and going door to door. I had all the toys/candy I wanted by half ass-ing child labor to charge $25. I simply made a poster for a fund raiser and taped it to my mower. I even got called out when parents didn't like that their kids did the mowing for me and took home $7 while I kept the difference. When confronted, I simply told them that they ensured their kid wouldn’t work with me again.
My principles have been established over the years. I realized I needed them when I was in kindergarten. I hung out with high school kids in my neighborhood in exchange for doing things that they needed. This included being the one to get hoisted in to windows to unlock a house from the inside or start fights with other kids when there was a stupid dispute. The worst thing I remember doing was defending my "friends" from another kids' large dog using the chain from my bike. It was at this point when I decided that I would use principles to decide what is "right." For the most part, risk and reward are the biggest drivers. It doesn't matter what it is or at least I haven't met a decision that's made me feel uncomfortable. Is my risk being matched with equal or greater reward? If not than no-go, no matter what. I do, however, enjoy a hero or even god complex. I've saved a person from drowning, dodged a car accident only to pull off and rescue them from a flaming car (which did NOT explode...). I enjoy holding the high level of importance to one's life and then giving it to them so that they feel fortunate. I suppose a sociopath who saves people isn't unheard of, but I'm in no rush to save starving kids from labor in under developed countries. In my opinion, under waged child laborers in those countries are turning a buck for their family as opposed to competing with the other children begging on the streets. In my belief, there is a choice and while companies could give more money to the labor, I know I would choose the most effective option. Until the customer demands it and it becomes as important as the fabric used to make the shirt, then the company should be as lean as possible. (off-topic)
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ReplyDeleteI've come a long since I was in grade school.
I've been in a relationship now for 5+ years and I haven't had any tendency to harm anyone since I was younger. Back then I never went further than breaking an arm or hand in a brawl or fight along side my friends. The rush was good but part of me looks forward to me finding a legal outlet to get a better rush. Growing up, I've experimented with guys and girls sexually and I could honestly go for either. It's really just about the fun of learning how each other tick and triggering that tick. I decided to stick with females for a couple reasons. It's been easier to blend in with a woman, and my fiancé pushes me to do more. Also, I enjoy aiding the damsel in distress act. What's curious to me is while I've never cared about actually helping others, I find enjoyment in taking on that "helping" role in the relationship. Also, I find that I've never truly confided in anyone. This goes for significant others, family, and friends alike. People who know me, know a certain version of me that I've created to best suit my circumstances and appear like a hero or champion. Mentors have identified this characteristic as being my most valuable trait because it will be most useful to me becoming successful professionally as well as managing the personal issues.
Recently, I've relocated away from friends and family to follow this girl (5+ years) and it's starting to be recognized that I don't keep up communication with anyone. Simply, it's been a relief to not have to be close to these people and have to keep up with what's making them tick. While I recognize that it's been hard for some of those people, I have no urge to change what's been going on. Often times, when my fiancé and I run in to a rough patch I wonder what I would do should we ever break it off. When I met her, I was in the process of opening a bail bonds business so that I could essentially have a license to hunt the ultimate prey when they jump bail. I didn't have a desire to hurt people, but I have always enjoyed the hunt. I think many people share this urge.
While I've never been religious, my family is Christian/Catholic. As a teen, I opened up to a family friend, and he gave me a copy of "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill. I highly recommend it to anyone deciding or refining the principles by which they live their life. This book along with the study of different religions has taught me the power of prayer, habit, attitude, and how to obsess over something to make it happen. This is truly the only use of religion in my opinion. That is, furthering your potential through belief in something bigger than one's self. I am now completing my Bachelor's through Harvard and work in wealth management. Both things that I don't think I would have done without principles and setting goals to align with a woman from a "comfortable style of living." For me, it's since been all about furthering my potential and soon raising a child which will challenge my success. These thoughts and ideas have me puzzled. I live a life which has ALWAYS been positive and "glad." I refuse to let anything get me down, though I fake being bothered to those around me show that I care about something, as it seems that's what's needed to show caring... (makes no sense, and I think it's a stupid way to be...) But what I do seem to care about, even from a kid was one day reaching a point where I've dramatically climbed the socio-economic ladder (increased my class), and having a child (son or daughter) who challenges my success through their own (almost like a worthy adversary). A fantasy of mine would be to meet an exact twin of mine and square off.
I'm interested in seeing if anyone else shares my views or wishes to challenge them. I'd also be interested in thoughts or replies which challenge my values.