From the Drs. Skeem and Cooke article that got Dr. Robert Hare's panties all in a wad about the validity of his PCL-R (Psychopathy Checklist Revisited):
“Without a history of violent or criminal behavior, even an individual with pronounced interpersonal and affective traits of psychopathy is unlikely to surpass the PCL–R’s threshold score for diagnosing psychopathy.”(Email me if you would like to read the article in its entirety.)
“We specifically argue that the process of understanding and appropriately diagnosing psychopathy must be separated from the enterprise of predicting violence.”
“First, the PCL–R is a measure that imperfectly maps psychopathy, the domain of interest. Second, the PCL–R’s factor structure is not a conceptualization of, or explanation for, psychopathy and does not fully correspond to Cleckley’s (1941) conceptualization, on which it is purportedly based. Third, reification of the PCL–R forecloses on the possibility of iteratively using theory and empirical results to revise this tool (and others) to advance understanding of psychopathy.”
“’Thanks to Hare, we now understand that the great majority of psychopaths are not violent criminals and never will be. Hundreds of thousands of psychopaths live and work and prey among us’ (Hercz, 2001, ¶ 11). The two-factor model poorly identifies this “great majority of psychopaths” who escape contact with the legal system or simply express their psychopathic tendencies in a manner that does not conflict with the law.”
“Beyond past criminal behavior, adding such variables as gender, age, or substance abuse to the PCL–R might also improve prediction of violence. Such an improvement would not imply that these characteristics are central to psychopathy.”
“The pursuit of validly diagnosing a personality disorder is distinct from the enterprise of predicting violence.”
I'm left thinking: Why weren't these points made earlier? Many of these things are blatantly obvious.
ReplyDeleteMost of the criticisms of the PCL-R are old(ish) news, in fact, 2. It's just that the profiling and psychiatric communities have a huge hard-on for Hare's shit, and he takes that as all the validity he needs to shout down his detractors.
ReplyDeletePS: "Most of the criticisms of the PCL-R are old(ish) news, in fact, 2. It's just that the profiling and psychiatric communities have a huge hard-on for Hare's shit, and he takes that as all the validity he needs to shout down his detractors."
ReplyDeleteSo, basically, he manipulated the scientific community to where it was hush-hush about the flaws of his PCL-R?
How unpsychopathic of him.
I'm pretty certain all of these points have been made by either M.E. or the commenters here, but since there are always new people coming through here, weeding out the useless posts from the ones with substance is a far too daunting task for your average inter-web user.
ReplyDeleteIs the PCL-R what therapists, or doctors, use when trying to "figure out" the criminal mind while they are incarcerated? I have never heard of this...
ReplyDeleteI'll never get the science world's obsession to understand human behavior. What good will the knowledge do. It's not like having the knowledge will protect them, or change the person's behavior.
It's not so much used to figure anything out as to categorize the people they're investigating. It is, in essence, an addendum to the DSM-IV definition of ASPD. The main addition (the one which differentiates sociopaths from psychopaths) is a measurement of personality traits purported to define psychopaths, whereas the DSM-IV deals only with behavioral (i.e., antisocial) issues. In short, the Checklist attempts to define a subset of sociopaths with very specific traits and stricter standards than the DSM-IV. How well it does this is a matter of some debate.
ReplyDeleteOh, and the working NYT link is here.
ReplyDeleteI'll check that out. Thank you.
ReplyDelete"I'll never get the science world's obsession to understand human behavior. What good will the knowledge do. It's not like having the knowledge will protect them, or change the person's behavior."
ReplyDeleteKnowledge is knowledge. Knowing is always more interesting than not knowing. The purpose of scientific discovery shouldn't be to learn something useful, just to learn something. The usefulness should come afterwards.
Is there such a thing as recovering sociopaths/psychopaths? Those are the people who should be involved in studying these people. Like AA..only another alcoholic really understands their own. Sort of like how Dr. Lector helped Clarisse.
ReplyDeleteJust biting the bullet, but how would you "recover" from something if it never really harmed you in the first place?
ReplyDeleteNo one said, "how would you "recover" from something if it never really harmed you in the first place?"
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of Christians trying to "save" Non-Christians.
I see your point. I was thinking along a different line. Sometimes I can't help but think how miserable some of the sociopaths are. But I know better.
ReplyDeleteThat was me No One..Grace.
Show me a miserable sociopath
ReplyDeleteWell, I can't show you...
ReplyDeleteMaybe your not UK. Do you think all sociopaths are the same when it comes to regrets? Do you think they process everything the same way?
Grace
Apparently Dr. Hare is. Who am I to question his authority?
ReplyDeleteLet me tell you what its like being a sociopath:
ReplyDeleteWhen a sociopath takes a loss they get angry not depressed and regretful. They turn their anger outwards towards other people. They blame other people. Sometimes they deflect blame on others on purpose, sometimes they do it subconsciously. Even making a conscious effort to be accountable is a difficult excercise.
When you see the world as a sociopath your life is the most important thing in the world. You feel like you are chosen. You feel like you have a destiny, even when you're rotting in you're cell. Even when you're broke. Especially when you're not.
With people, you feel entitled to their respect and devotion. You get told how great you are everytime you go places, and you don't need to because you felt great waking up. Because you have so much confidence, other people look up to you who are weak. They are like mystery bags. If something you want is inside you take it. If its nothing of use you discard it.
You find it hard to not objectify people, however its important so you just try with a few people that understand who you are. All the rest of the people who don't understand you are fools to you.
People are behavorial patterns with few motives. Within minutes of meeting people they find it easy to talk to you and people love talking about themselves. They betray themselves with boasts, name dropping, family history, marital problems, money problems, insecurities, sorrys, excuse mes, is this oks, and the list goes on. When you see people more and more they become the same. Walking duplicates of each other. Walking tools to be used. Never in your mind did they exist till you found a purpose for them. When that purpose ends they cease to exist.
Noticing peoples body language, mannerisms, insecurities, and behaviorial patterns is subconscious. You know how to make people happy and you know how to tear them to pieces. You know who's a mark and you know who's schemer. You know a traitor before they know they'll betray you. People will find you terrible for what you do to the inncocent, because only you know they are going to be guilty.
You can make someone feel like they've never met somebody like you in their life, and they haven't. You know all their insecurities and you fulfill them. They become dependent upon you, because of it. They start feeling empty without you. They get captured in the moment. They feel that this is it, and they are ready to run away forever with you. Sometimes the feeling isn't reciprocal. Sometimes it is.
You don't respect authority, because you are the authority. You always have ideas on how to run things better. It makes you ambitous. So ambitous, you will do whatever it takes to rise. Sometimes it involves breaking rules, laws, social standards, people and anything else you find unimportant.
Sociopaths are thought to have no morals. You have morals. Interchangable morals, that you use to justify your actions. A sociopath is a pillar of his own justice. When people violate your sense of justice you feel entitled to ruin them.
You have incredible rage. It has power. It can be obsessive. If you feel someone has wronged you, then you can't sleep at night until they are destroyed.
Lastly you are always winning. When you lose you win. You live in that delusion into you make it a reality.
I would be surprised, Grace, if you see a sociopath not the same as this, on this blog.
Let me tell you what its like being a sociopath:
ReplyDeleteWhen a sociopath takes a loss they get angry not depressed and regretful. They turn their anger outwards towards other people. They blame other people. Sometimes they deflect blame on others on purpose, sometimes they do it subconsciously. Even making a conscious effort to be accountable is a difficult excercise.
When you see the world as a sociopath your life is the most important thing in the world. You feel like you are chosen. You feel like you have a destiny, even when you're rotting in you're cell. Even when you're broke. Especially when you're not.
With people, you feel entitled to their respect and devotion. You get told how great you are everytime you go places, and you don't need to because you felt great waking up. Because you have so much confidence, other people look up to you who are weak. They are like mystery bags. If something you want is inside you take it. If its nothing of use you discard it.
You find it hard to not objectify people, however its important so you just try with a few people that understand who you are. All the rest of the people who don't understand you are fools to you.
People are behavorial patterns with few motives. Within minutes of meeting people they find it easy to talk to you and people love talking about themselves. They betray themselves with boasts, name dropping, family history, marital problems, money problems, insecurities, sorrys, excuse mes, is this oks, and the list goes on. When you see people more and more they become the same. Walking duplicates of each other. Walking tools to be used. Never in your mind did they exist till you found a purpose for them. When that purpose ends they cease to exist.
Noticing peoples body language, mannerisms, insecurities, and behaviorial patterns is subconscious. You know how to make people happy and you know how to tear them to pieces. You know who's a mark and you know who's schemer. You know a traitor before they know they'll betray you. People will find you terrible for what you do to the inncocent, because only you know they are going to be guilty.
You can make someone feel like they've never met somebody like you in their life, and they haven't. You know all their insecurities and you fulfill them. They become dependent upon you, because of it. They start feeling empty without you. They get captured in the moment. They feel that this is it, and they are ready to run away forever with you. Sometimes the feeling isn't reciprocal. Sometimes it is.
You don't respect authority, because you are the authority. You always have ideas on how to run things better. It makes you ambitous. So ambitous, you will do whatever it takes to rise. Sometimes it involves breaking rules, laws, social standards, people and anything else you find unimportant.
Sociopaths are thought to have no morals. You have morals. Interchangable morals, that you use to justify your actions. A sociopath is a pillar of his own justice. When people violate your sense of justice you feel entitled to ruin them.
Lastly you are always winning. When you lose you win. You live in that delusion into you make it a reality.
I would be surprised, Grace, if you see a sociopath not the same as this, on this blog.
Double post. ooops. Damn website.
ReplyDeleteI largely agree UKan, but my personal viewpoint is different in a few areas.
ReplyDeleteI don't really feel like I'm "chosen" as I don't believe in destiny or a greater purpose. My life is important to me because I generally have fun being alive, not because I think I'm a savior.
I haven't actually managed to find anyone that I don't objectify. Even people who know me best, people who "love" me, are ultimately just my possessions. Like any owner, I become vengeful when someone breaks one of my toys, and I think that desire to protect what I own is the closest thing I have to "not objectifying" in that its outward appearance is that of genuine caring.
"You know a traitor before they know they'll betray you." I liked this line most of all. I always know, from the first meeting, when someone's going to fuck myself or my group over, and no one ever listens. And then when I'm right, they forget that I said anything so that they can be safe in the delusion that it was a surprise. I've since started actively destroying these people just so I don't have to deal with the aftermath.
"Lastly you are always winning. When you lose you win. You live in that delusion into you make it a reality." I would disagree on the level of delusion. While certainly many people must force that lie on themselves to save their own egos, I tend to plan further ahead than that. I make sure that, however the events play out, even when I lose, I win. Not "Haha, heroes, you have only foiled my decoy plan!" style. I just arrange the players and events in such a way that I gain more than the others no matter what happens.
Other than that, pretty spot on. Then again, UKan, we're also both criminals, so maybe there's a different outlook among the less criminal readers.
Should be a "with you" or another comma before the first usage of UKan. My bad.
ReplyDeleteWhen you lose you win, means you learned something instead of regretting. Fyi
ReplyDeleteUK, the first paragraph sounds like misery to me and the rest of your comment sounds like a fantasy come true, lol. and Post’s sounds like a game of chess. To me, it doesn't tell the tale of a happy man/woman sociopath. But that's the difference between us. But you know on some level I relate to some of that stuff. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteI look to be relatively happy… nothing more…there is nothing more. Even when I had more money it didn't make me happier, as I expected it would. What makes me happy is less emotional chaos, a nice job, drinks with my friends and a happy kid. If a nice guy came my way that would be ok too. Don't see that happening right now..oh well.
Should be a "with you" or another comma before the first usage of UKan. My bad.
Wow Post, maybe you can proof my research papers. I suck at punctuation and correct grammar. You're good!!! All you guys are. Were, or are you good students?
Grace
Sure, Grace. I can even typeset them for you. :D I'm a pro. I used to do that at school for the math and physics majors.
ReplyDeleteI was never actually a very good student. I get bored easily, and the "homework" thing always felt like busy work. If I ace the tests, do I really gain anything from doing the same thing over and over again?
You could gain an A. Sounds like you weren't challenged enough though. My son, he's only seven, gets bored too. His teacher gives him extra work to do and he does jobs around the classroom.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could take you up on that but ideally it's something I have to become efficient at. I'm good at doing the research and collecting the information and typing it up even. It's just the English Comp part I always need help with. I get help from the English professor at the college. They're apa style too and that abstract part kills me. I'm better with oral reports.
Grace
Ukan, it is really an incredibly beautiful thing when you are honest.
ReplyDeleteRespect. \m/