From "Psychopathy: antisocial, criminal, and violent behavior," chapter 24 by Otto Kernberg:
The passive type of psychopath has been able to learn to deal with the powerful through pseudosubmission and through out-smarting them -- a passive, parasitic exploitiveness that at least implies the capacity to control immediate anger and rage, and to transform it into the slow-motion aggression of a "wolf in sheep's clothing." In the case of these patients, their own aggression can be denied, and the division of the world into wolves and sheep is complemented by the adapative function of the wolf disguised among the sheep.
Whether psychopaths are predominantly aggressive or passive, the gratification they seek is exlusively linked to bodily functions -- to eating, drinking, drugs, and alcohol, and to a sexuality divested of its object relations implications and thus devoid of love and tenderness. In the most severe cases of aggressive psychopathy, sexual sadism may become an invitation to murder, making these individuals extremely dangerous. Or else early aggression may dominate their emotional lives to the extent that even the sensuality of bodily contact and skin eroticism is eliminated. In this case, there is global extinction of all capacity for sexual gratification, which is replaced by senseless physical destrictiveness, self-mutiliation, and murder.I agree with about 60% of this. Does anyone completely relate?
Frankly I'm surprised you even agreed with 60% of it.
ReplyDeleteThe passive type of psychopath has been able to learn to deal with the powerful through pseudosubmission and through out-smarting them
Because only those passive psychopaths know how to act submissive, yes? Those other active ones are simply untamed beasts that have to be put down.~
a passive, parasitic exploitiveness that at least implies the capacity to control immediate anger and rage, and to transform it into the slow-motion aggression of a "wolf in sheep's clothing."
From my experience, pseudo-submission (which is the only type of submission I know) is purely based off context. I guess in the realms of a prison, where most of the data on us is collected, this would be relevant, but not your average Joe with ASPD. Pseudo-submission has more to do with Impression Management than some sort of parasitic relationship, which was a lovely analogy.~
gratification they seek is exlusively linked to bodily functions -- to eating, drinking, drugs, and alcohol, and to a sexuality divested of its object relations implications and thus devoid of love and tenderness.
I actually laughed when I read this section. Had to break out a wipe to remove the saliva from my screen. This is probably the most ridiculous pseudo-science coment on people with ASPD I've seen. May as well say that we float in water and turn children into toads, too.
In this case, there is global extinction of all capacity for sexual gratification, which is replaced by senseless physical destrictiveness, self-mutiliation, and murder.
I can't comment on this, as I've not 'crossed the line' into whatever extreme psychopathy he's talking about. I can say this though, sexual acts for me are about the seduction and foreplay, not the actual sex. It's not that I don't like sex, but more along the lines that I've never been 'lost' in the moment that most people get. I've certainly never been a slave to it.
Agreement Percentage: <10%
Then again, I'm not a 'criminally insane' and incarcerated Psychopath.
With the first paragraph:
ReplyDeleteHow can a psychopath be successful without the sheep mask? Is this really a special type, or just not the currently incarcerated type? I just started watching Dexter- maybe that would be a good idea for this guy. Donuts anyone?
With the second:
I, again, do not know that I'm a psychopath, but for the sake of the discussion, lets say I'm probably somewhere in the ballpark. While I don't have strong emotions (other than ramped up aggravation sometimes), I can find things pleasant or unpleasant. Yes, that includes eating, drinking, and alcohol (I do not partake in drugs because I may run dear husband for a local office and word gets around), but also textures, aromas, sounds, etc. I also enjoy solving little puzzles like "Who is stealing Joe's V8 at lunch every day?" or "Given that the addition of this and that up-regulates system x, what happens if we add some this-like stuff?" I can appreciate an ah-ha moment. I also like to win little games that I play with people. This is getting boring. Anyway, the point is that I can enjoy other things than those he listed. Hey, Dexter even found being with his girlfriend "pleasant" at one point.~
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ReplyDeleteI can agree with the information you commented on Aerianne, but the writer's seeming exclusivity to more 'passive' psychopaths versus more 'aggressive' ones in situations of pseudo-submission is simply not true.
ReplyDeletePseudo-submission is a tool to be used when it's handy. Being able to laze around most days and not work while the wife does, without context, may seem a 'passive' psychopath MO. That doesn't take into account all the other psychopathic behavior performed on a daily basis.
That psychopath could be one of those batshit crazy sexual sadists, serial killer, etc.
The thing that I don't think a lot of psychologists truly understand about the disorder, is that the lack of conscience enables us to do anything without dilemma, regardless of our tendencies. In this, there are no true 'passive' or 'aggressive' psychopaths, just tendencies to be one or the other out of habit in certain situations.
That's why I don't like terms such as 'low-functioning sociopath'. It only seems to denote someone who has been caught and convicted. The so-called, stupid ones. I think often stupidity is not so much the root of being caught, so much as the arrogance, as it can be blinding.
A lot of people equate bad behavior from common p/s criminals, when in reality, it is an extension of their childhood in a good chunk of cases.
Psychopath 1 finds through growing up that being manipulative with words and attacking with intellect is easy and fun.
Psychopath 2 finds through growing up that using force and fear as manipulation gets what he wants.
Which one do you think is going to end up in prison, first?
It's not guaranteed that when they grow up, they'll stay in their ways, but it is rather likely in a handful of cases.
Mostly accurate. I don't think there's one empath women here that won't testify to the quirky sexual sadist their ex was. The article was careful not to blanket everyone as serial killers, which is a pleasant change.
ReplyDeleteAs far as sociopaths being knocked down to just physical needs, I think that is total bullshit. Those are needs they have when they are bored. They get bored from the lack of over stimulation that they require. They need lots of social contact and to be able to cause situations resulting from that contact.
"In the most severe cases of aggressive psychopathy, sexual sadism may become an invitation to murder, making these individuals extremely dangerous. Or else early aggression may dominate their emotional lives to the extent that even the sensuality of bodily contact and skin eroticism is eliminated. In this case, there is global extinction of all capacity for sexual gratification, which is replaced by senseless physical destrictiveness, self-mutiliation, and murder."
ReplyDeleteSeems borderline to me. While I'm too smart to debate exclusivity on this blog, I'm too dumb to let it go unmentioned that it screams particulars of BPD, and not necessarily that of ASPD.
A good test for some of you that may be confused here: If you have scars from self-mutilation then you just got a Sociopath Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free-Card from me. Besides, it'd be more productive to then debate "why".
Yet dumb enough to diagnose personality disorders that contradict an actual trained physician.
ReplyDeleteA good test for some of you that may be confused here: If you have scars from self-mutilation then you just got a Sociopath Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free-Card from me. Besides, it'd be more productive to then debate "why".
ReplyDeleteIt is, however, "common" knowledge that self-mutilation isn't typically associated with ASPD.
What would you say then to someone who is a sociopath/psychopath who acknowledges this but uses it to his/her advantage by disguising their condition for another to avoid detection?
On the other hand I've also heard how some people inflict self-injury as a way to "feel something" when they're emotionally numb, and not necessarily out of any feelings of self-deprecation/hatred. I can imagine that self-injury would in some ways induce some sort of adrenaline rush for some people.
I always thought people cut themselves because they are gothic.
ReplyDeleteActually, many religious teachings advocate self-mutilation as a method toward enlightenment; as a way to separate oneself from the body through the endurance of physical pain.
ReplyDeleteSomething less esoteric which I can relate to could be said of "runner's high," where once you reach a certain level of pain, a general feeling of well-being enters in place of the pain (endorphins/adrenaline).
Goths are too busy looking for new items to add to their all-black wardrobe and makeup collection. Pussies.
i don't know, i sort of feel that goths and other such overly decorated people lack real personality so they over-compensate.
ReplyDeletelol, no one and notme.
ReplyDeleteA. I wouldn't have used the word physician.
ReplyDeleteB. As for the Psycho 1/Psycho 2 comparison, basically you just helped me diagnose everyone on the planet a psychopath. Thank you.
C. As for the healthy debate on published BPD characteristics, I am not an advocate for diagnosis in general but am merely blending with this blog on the whole opinion that sociopath and psychopath = synonym.
If you're going to go by the book, go by the book and do not deviate.
Here's some manipulation for you:
Do you really believe that garbage anyway? No, you don't.
could these be psychopaths?
ReplyDeletegratification linked to bodily functions (or lack of)?
i would like to slap some sense into these people. unbelievable.
Actually I think you were going by the book; you just don't understand it. Such is why you confuse BPD with sociopathy. You were trying to tell us that you seem to know sociopaths better than themselves, and doctors who study them.
ReplyDeleteYou wouldn't call him a physician? Right. I suppose we can go through the 'what is a physician?' routine. How bout what most countries call one. Someone with a license. Someone with a degree. Someone that's a expert. Someone unlike you.
You think wrong, do you require only my telling you this? The big clue for today is root words. And don't try to bullshit me getting all personal, you and I both have realized we knew more than some "quacks" we've ran into.
ReplyDeleteDon't use we with you and I in a sentance when you describe similiar qualities. You have proven nothing so far but to be more of the same. The clue for today is archives. There's nothing personal about barebone facts. If you want to question the existance of things join the rank and file of everyone ironically named anonymous.
ReplyDeleteThis sounds like the beginning of a beautiful friendship with benefits.
ReplyDeleteUKan: We will both more than likely say whatever WE think. Of course, I'm always happy to instigate you for you (or through you for you). We should probably go back to the debate now, this love story will get out of control soon.
ReplyDeleteHeh, No One, you could tell I like them, no? Such an affinity for borderlines..
ReplyDeleteI don't want to see what you could do or would do, or what you'd be happy to do. I want to see you DO something. Amaze us. Drop a jewel that we haven't heard yet. Play a game that is inovative. Emancipate me from the boredom of anonymous talk.
ReplyDeleteAw, you locked up the game.
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ReplyDeleteTotally Zoe. Classic case of mbPD.
ReplyDeleteThe informant lives up to their name..
ReplyDeleteGood addition Gag.
Can we start calling people with multiple personalities psychopaths too? They're certainly not normal.
Your call anon, expert opinion not a prerequisite here or so I've been impressed upon.
ReplyDeletewhat about empaths? they obsess too much to be normal. are empaths psychopaths too?
ReplyDeletei would like to see the mbPD's donate their body parts to those who appreciate them. pity to waste them.
Hmmm, the expert opinion ~ NOT comment seems to be affirmed by the fact that no has yet ventured to ask or check what mbPD stands for.
ReplyDeleteit feels like work
ReplyDeleteumm...
ReplyDeletemissing body part disorder?
mind body personality disorder?
i'm good
ReplyDeleteAt last!..a participant!
ReplyDeletemine was;
Missing Brain Personality Disorder.
that's a winner, gag. i had one more... may be personality disorder.
ReplyDeleteor even mbmbPD
ReplyDeleteGoogle's totally hopeless, all I got was ~ Million Barrels Per Day.
ReplyDeleteBtw I agree with you. mbPD's and Pyschopaths are perfectly symbiotic. I'm sure its very fulfilling to have your disassociated body parts appreciated by the worthy.
Google says Multiple Business Personality Disorder.
ReplyDeleteAs I have done so many times before, I was casually implying that there's a personality disorder listed for basically anything not "normal". While I have never seen said "normal", and trust me I've looked, I've only seen diversity and random.
ReplyDeleteInstead of smart, we say autistic. Instead of street-smart we say sociopathic, instead of killer or chronic rapist we say psychopathic. Instead of anti-social but means well, we say Aspie.
Above and beyond all, in general and instead of all criteria met for diagnosis, maybe you're just the sociopath who didn't kill his household pet but executed the meeting of other criteria flawlessly.~
Or maybe the noble doctor was lazy the day of your diagnosis. Or bored.
Point is: You go ahead and accept the "rules" given to you by a doctor that understands psychology as well as a psycho and polarizes you accordingly.
Anon, why can't you just let everyone be a special little snowflake? ;)
ReplyDeleteI humbly recommend Madness and Civilization by Foucault for you folks who are able to read.
ReplyDeleteHe traces the institutionalization of insanity and mental illness and the like back to leprosy.
(I never actually finished the book because Foucault's writing style drives me nuts, but I will eventually.)
No One, that's partially what I meant. Eventually the doctor's obsession will have diagnosed the world itself as a psychopath, and they'll be the only one "normal" left and possibly commit suicide. Or attack the world.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what people with BIIPD resorted to a few centuries ago.
ReplyDelete@Aerianne: I sort of had the role reversal in the bedroom in regards to sexual quirkiness. My beeper was a childhood sex abuse victim, and she wanted me to reenact what happened to her. I resisted for a few years, but finally gave in one day. After that, she acted very strange. That, coupled with all the other typical beeper drama, was my green light to leave. It was already going downhill, may as well dodge the cliff.
Coming late into the discussion, sorry.
ReplyDeleteI see that the number of comments is no where what the cake generated. Any idea why that might be?
Ukan, you asked if there is an empath woman who won't testify her ex was a quirky sadist. This baffled me. None of my exes were quirky sadists. All were about pleasuring well in very gentle ways and very sensuous, including the two who definitely were socios (locked up in small cage and regularly beaten up when children). They did keep saying though if I only knew how much I was getting away with. Break-up was easy since they were long distance relationships. I cut the cord after I caught enough many pathological lies serving no particular purpose. Do you suggest empaths see sex sadistic/quirky? In an earlier remark a socio stated that it's all about foreplay for him. That is heaven for a woman, he deserves thanks on behalf of women. Hopefully one of his women (possibly an empath losing her mind from pleasure) will take him to the moment and let all else disappear one day.
I once watched a movie with a man, who made a comment about how the actor was behaving.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see the actor the way he did until he commented on him, and it kind of freaked me out, as I then also saw what he did.
Seems socio's do see people differently.
For some odd reason that brings to mind a little line from Gabriel Garcia Marquez's novel ~ One Hundred Years of Solitude:
ReplyDelete"The train brings the outside world's technology to Macondo: movies, phonographs, and more and more prostitutes skilled in all sorts of arcane arts. The town responds to the new technology in their own unique way. For instance, the movie-going public tears up the seats in anger when an actor whose death they had wept over in one movie reappeared in the next movie".
Medusa: good recommendation, and good read. Though, Foucault himself was an avid follower of BDSM, so that was part of the reason why he wrote it as well. He does make points worthy of nothing, however.
ReplyDeleteAnon: most definitely. I'm not at all a fan of the mental health institution as a whole with its arbitrary taxonomies and categorizations. The study of psychology, however, does interest me as I'm sure it does for you as well.
Please explain, Anonymous 5:57
ReplyDeleteNo One: "arbitrary taxonomies and categorizations."
ReplyDeleteI prefer to think of them as dogmatic mental assertions and not just arbitrary, but you're correct more than you would want to realize.
As for the set of training wheels required.. I do suppose it takes one to know one.
I saw the actor as the serious detective type, but after the comment made by my friend, I saw
ReplyDeletethe actor as been more of a comedian.
no one, yeah, I'm aware of his... interests. I wouldn't call BDSM a caveat, though.
ReplyDeleteI also have his The History of Sexuality though I haven't gotten to it yet.
He does make points worthy of nothing
Was that a typo? Or a statement?
Medusa: typo, meant "noting" haha. And, no I didn't claim it was a caveat, but just an interesting fact that does play into the premise of his theories. No one (not me, but also not the "not me" from this blog... jesus christ...) is free from bias, after all.
ReplyDeleteAnon: good point, although I wouldn't exclude most dogma from arbitration, even if used in a directed manner, since it doesn't necessarily entail truth.
Been meaning to read that Foucault for ages. I bought a copy for a soc class in college but I never got around to it. Think I'll go check my shelves when I get home now before buying another copy.
ReplyDeleteI've learned to become very passive, as someone who delights in violence and sadism. Growing up, I would mutilate little rodents and beat house pets mercilessly. My mother, however, was a saint, and she blanketed my world with love and compassion. Her love was unwavering. This is how, I believe, I can easily slip into the "sheep's" costume, when it is necessary, and I actually tend toward this ritual. Through her, I learned subconsciously how to quell my aggression...for a while, at least.
ReplyDeleteExtreme sexual sadism is the only way I am able to be gratified. And I have strong urges to further my violence to much graver implications. But, if I had, I would probably be in prison by now. :)
I'm sensual because I have to be. In nature im truely a sadist.
ReplyDeleteI love the stuff, I admit.
ReplyDeleteDoes enticement with sour candy consistute as BDSM? ;-)
ReplyDeleteconstitute
ReplyDeleteIts hard to admit
ReplyDeleteHere's my socipathic lyrics of the month:
ReplyDeleteLifes a game but its not fair
Break the rules so I don't care
I keep doing my own thing
Walking tall against the rain
Vicotrys within the mile
Almost there don't give up now
Only thing that's on my mind
Is who's gonna run this town tonight
-JayZ
i'm super sensual by nature.
ReplyDeleteI'll be a sadist if i have to be.
:)
UKan, I could tell you if you would only hook me up.
ReplyDeletei'm dying of insomnia...
ReplyDeletefucking christ.
I was a sexual sadist as a kid. Oh, my poor cabbage patch kid doll, that ginger-head took all kinds of abuse.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm all over the place.
Sorry no more cheating. I'm a good boy now.
ReplyDeletedo you know how depressing it is to watch the sun come up after a night of no sleep whatsoever, then have to haul your arse over to the fucking doctors just when your ready to finally nod off?
ReplyDeletesufficiently depressing.
'love is obesity of the soul.'
ReplyDeletehow great is that? i got it off psychforums. i'm too honest for my own good.
Pandora. Tupac on search artist. Best radio ever.
ReplyDeleteEh, I don't listen to that hip-hop/rap gangsta crap.
ReplyDeleteI quit going to psychforums because it was too lame. The narc forum was okay, but then I got bored.
ReplyDeleteIts universal. You would be surprised.
ReplyDeleteWhat is?
ReplyDeletei like any/most music, as long as it's good. surprise surprise my socio ex loved gangsta rap. i like eminem and suchlike.
ReplyDeletei'm liking psychforums.
I like Busta Rhymes, I'll admit. A lot.
ReplyDeletePsychforums comes and goes in crap waves. It's always fun when the narc-victims get called out as a narc themselves.
ReplyDeleteThey have a tantrum and then disappear.
Tupac is universal. Psych foums are funny too.
ReplyDeletehaha, i skimmed through the narc forum and just saw some dude go off on one, even the other narcs were like 'whoa there mate!'
ReplyDeletei don't remember nor care what the context was, i just remember it was funny.
i'm a sucker for a good male voice. Tupac is in that category, i also love Q-tip's voice.
ReplyDeleteTupac is dead, did you hear?
Interesting, Jay-Z was on tonight's Daily Show.
ReplyDeletei know tupac died. it was a crap joke and i can't find my squiggly line.
ReplyDeleteWheres the narc forum???!!! address please
ReplyDeletefuck you narc
ReplyDeleteApparently, someone stole and modified my super creative and unique name on Psychforums. Now I'll never be a special snowflake :'(
ReplyDelete"psychopaths are predominantly aggressive or passive ..."
ReplyDeleteThis, I believe can be said about most people. But whether most people are pseudo-submissive or truly submissive is probably more a question of preference and awareness.
I'm not sure I understand what he means by:
"In the most severe cases of aggressive psychopathy, sexual sadism may become an invitation to murder, making these individuals extremely dangerous."
Being a sexual sadist, even if from very early on, to me does not seem like an "invitation to murder". But of course I'm aware that there are some individuals who take things too far, but they are a small minority, even in the ranks of psychopaths.
"Or else early aggression may dominate their emotional lives to the extent that even the sensuality of bodily contact and skin eroticism is eliminated"
This I don't get. Personally my skin can be very sensitive when in the right situation, so much so that touching gives me more pleasure than the act of intercourse itself.
I have of late become aware that "extinction of all capacity for sexual gratification" does in fact occur with some psychopaths. I thought it was a joke when I first came upon it and have used the fact that my own sexuality is perhaps not the strongest there ever was as a "proof" I am not a psychopath myself, but I guess I'll have to stick with the rest of the many, many proofs I have, hehe.
"senseless destrictiveness, self-mutilation...". Without the word 'senseless' it suggests certain religiously related behaviors, and I can relate to that. Like somebody above mentioned, these are ways to achieve a special mental state (like f.ex. Runner's High) that facilitates transcendence.
To me the lines:
ReplyDelete"the gratification they seek is exclusively linked to bodily functions -- to eating, drinking, drugs ..."
has double meaning. The gratification I seek is exclusively VIA bodily functions, but that includes f.ex. music (the one art form that can actually induce in me a sense of euphoria), but all these things have to me a purpose that goes beyond the mere bodily functions. There's always my mind above it all, which experiences every sensation. Maybe it is a combination, or rather like a synchronized experience of body and mind.
What @Rock Hudson wrote seems to be pretty much how it is with me, except for the pet beatings (To my recollection I've never hurt pets unreasonably. On the contrary, I rather like animals).
To "deal with the powerful through pseudosubmission and through outsmarting them .."
Of course, I do this all the time. But again: Don't we all?
I don't think I'm predominantly neither passive nor aggressive. But I probably would be predominantly aggressive had the circumstances been different from what they are.
So my overall level of 'relating' to this author's words is blurred. Maybe 60% like yourself, but it's an estimation as I don't really think I understand completely what he's saying.