From an aspie/socio(?) relationship story from a reader:
She told me how she also was incapable of empathy and that she often fantasized about violently murdering people, and craving power. She told me that to fit in she just moulded herself to whatever she thought other people wanted, and she didn't want a boyfriend because she could not be herself around such a person and it would invade her personal time (I had noticed the inconsistency too, I suspect she has many reasons). So in this discussion I became intensely interested in her, because although I have asperger's I find other aspies terribly annoying, and this was someone who did not have empathy faculties that I actually liked and during the conversation she changed her mind and decided she actually did want to be in a relationship with me, I still don't know why. Did she enjoy the power she felt over me when I was being affectionate, did she want the power trip from when I was dumped again 2 days later?
Anyway a short time later, we watched some movies together. She was really affectionate physically and I noticed the incongruence with how she described herself, but why would anyone lie about that? I wanted her to be 'natural' around me but ignored the inconsistency, as the person she was projecting was seemed so perfect for me. Later on we were messing around and ended up having sex and when we finished after I went to clean up she told me her mother was coming home for lunch and that I should leave. When I got home I found another message that said "you pushed me too far, don't try to contact me again." It occurred to me she was lying about her mother and it was so odd that she never once said "let's not do this" or "no I don't want to have sex" she even got the condom out herself.
I am pretty convinced she was a sociopath at least to some extent, I suspect she lies pathologically and enjoyed breaking up with me repeatedly for the power. I feel like an idiot falling for it a second time knowing she was probably acting, but the person she projected was exactly what I wanted in a girlfriend. Looking into it later, if I was right about her being a sociopath, it could have ended a lot worse. So I guess I am lucky to have it end with only some personal resentment and another ex to add to the list of people who I have seen naked but don't talk to.
Sounds sort of like a younger female version of me, the way you described her thoughts, at least.
ReplyDeleteYes, definitely socio material. I don't suspect a psychopath would be too keen on cuddle time, frankly. They rarely get much out of that.
Even people without empathy enjoy affection. They may not know how to give AND feel it naturally, but they can accept it or dish it out like a gift.
Most likely you kind of freaked her out because she thought she was a lot more clever than she actually is. Your worst case scenario is that she breaks your heart, and your best case scenario is that you have a highly dysfunctional but manageable relationship.
Wow, I'd hate to be a kid in that family. Aspie father and homicidal sociopath mother? Sounds like the American Dream come True.
I can't tell if he's boasting or feeling depressed. The detachment seems stylistic or composed.
ReplyDeleteThough I could relate somewhat to the bit about being lost on the whole 'need to be congruent' thing. I just find the notion of having an 'audience' entirely tiresome.
ReplyDeleteSounds like two aspies to me.
ReplyDeletefor all you self diagnosis. you can not call yourself a psychopath/narc unless you are clinically diagnosed.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzLFSCzUzNA
Go Sam Vaknin !!
ReplyDeleteThis is curious to me. Except for the craving power part this is how I, and a lot of beepers, act. Molding ourselves to be what other people want/expect, lying about who we are, not feeling like we can be ourselves/losing our identity, being affectionate than feeling smothered or like it's too much and pushing away/breaking up, not being able to commit, rapidly wanting to get back together only to end it again once we know we can reattach... though we usually stick around longer.
ReplyDeleteI've been doing a lot of reading lately about BPD and how we 'feel empathy' and I'm beginning to think it's not how people are supposed to experience it. Idk, not saying your chick is BPD, just noticing some interesting parallels and it makes me think.
"So I guess I am lucky to have it end with only some personal resentment and another ex to add to the list of people who I have seen naked but don't talk to."
ReplyDeleteGreat, Great line! Do you think it's a metaphor?
Note:
ReplyDeleteI have some experience assessing children's cognitive styles and I'm reasonably certain there are some excellent outcomes with that sort Neurodiversity. While I'd agree the environment would have its challenges, Ruthless and Brilliant do infact appear (with all that entails) to be the New American Dream.
Alternative wiring is not a life sentence. Unconsciously, it's paired with filtering and processing style & consciously, awareness. This can result in some highly functional outcomes.
These cognitive variations(Alt wiring+ adaptive processing) are the land of insight, genius and artistry. Those are often Cluster A personality types-- which incidentally, don't seem to get talked about much here, except as super enjoyable to drive towards harakiri as, they really go batscat.
Novel, creative thought is often just the event horizon of delusion.
thank god for event horizons of delusion
ReplyDeletemaybe she just made the mistake of fucking you before getting to know you, reader. Sex before trust is no the way to secure bonds between "normals" It's possible the girl knows this to some degree, as you state that she is intelligent.
ReplyDeleteMaybe she is getting to know herself and is
upset that she has to give up something to "give up" something. Don't aspies have pride about their smarts?
Maybe she's just going back and forth between: "Don't use me for sex" , "I am horney" , "You're using me, we all know men don't bond with sex and you're trying to make me bond! Stop it you're trying to get me to be addicted to you, and it isn't fair because your oxytocin leaves your body sooner than mine does! So F U mofo, I ain't gonna falsely bond! So quick, f me and then get out so I can quickly try to get this sex-rush out of my brain. I don't know you well enough to feel so "bonded" !"
Aaaargghh, get out you fraud! You don't bond the way i do, so the scales are tipped unevenly!
But I would really like to get to know. Maybe we could bond ass- backwards. After all we're all human and we all need to be touched and "loved". Please let's try again, and I promise i will try to relax. But do understand that I will never fully trust you. Also , did i mention to you how I'm afraid of bonding?
Haven, I have been reading your blog and I have to ask something that may seem obvious to you (and the other frequent commenters here): Are people with BPD always sociopaths, never sociopaths, or some of each? The BPD person I am trying to "figure out" is diagnosed bi-polar with borderline personality disorder, but I see evidence of sadism in her interactions with others, a gleam in her eye when someone gets bad news, or if someone gets injured. I also believe she is genuinely unempathetic, even with her own children. Is that normal for BPD, or a co-morbid sociopathy?
ReplyDeleteHow do you know the "gleam in her eye" is sadism? When do you get a gleam in your eye?
ReplyDeleteShe doesn't want you to figure her out, is my guess. And she likes to see you poking around trying to find a way to manipulate her. She will never let you manipulate her, so she finds it amusing. She doesn't believe a word you tell her because she knows your type. It's a game. Without your dossier on her desk she will never let you get the upper hand. Carry on poking around.
Good god, man, aren't you the one who told her over and over and over that you are a pathological liar? What else can you expect from a "normal" person?
ReplyDeleteGive her a reason to trust you that is not a self-involved one. Maybe she'll open up? is that something you can do truthfully? She will doubt you and question you so it should be the absolute honest truth. If that is not something you can do, you're SOL. Just ask that murderer here. He'll tell ya the same thing.
ReplyDeleteeverything i have learned in life i have learned threw lyrics and clichees. they are graet teachers and now i have no more to learn.
ReplyDeleteReader, you didn't say how/why you convinced her to leave university. She's prob pissed off at you. She's prob smarter than you, and you are telling her she should be fucking you instead of educating herself. Pulllease. She needs to go back to school before getting involved with anyone long term.
ReplyDeleteMost ev I learned is from my own experience. Are you ok with that, 8:26?
ReplyDelete@Anon 7:26 … “Haven, I have been reading your blog and I have to ask something that may seem obvious to you (and the other frequent commenters here): Are people with BPD always sociopaths, never sociopaths, or some of each?”
ReplyDeleteI don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that someone with BPD is sociopathic.
If you go by a classic dictionary definition of sociopath: “Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, acting without empathy, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others”…. I suppose a case could be made that BPD has sociopathic traits, because our behavior is extremely abnormal, our empathy is skewed, we act with regards to our immediate needs without concern for how it will affect others (most notably with Low Functioning BPD; High Functioning BPD we may want to act this way but we can restrain the impulse). However, unlike socios we are highly, highly emotionally volatile, we don’t have the same intentions and our presentations of these traits are very different.
I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the way a Borderline feels empathy, and it’s becoming more clear to me (at least my case) that what I think is empathy, may not be what is actually empathy. I am highly emotionally volatile on the entire range of emotions (which is not characteristic of socio). Sadism and masochism aren’t uncommon. I have almost no sympathy/empathy for peoples pain, and if I do it’s generally because it negatively affects me and is self-directed so I guess not actually empathic. I don’t necessarily take pleasure in it, unless it’s someone I’ve split into a Bad category, then they probably deserve it and got what’s coming to them. I’m not sure we can empathize with people if they don’t immediately affect our lives. But currently this is speculation with some rather disturbing personal insights.
I see a weird combination of BPD and histrionic personality disorder.
ReplyDeleteShe has the charm that people with BPD have when they are in their manic phases, and the attention-seeking of those with histrionic.
She told you she was broken on purpose for the attention. She peaked your interest, and set herself apart from the other women. Now with you under her control, she can break up with you, without ever breaking up. She will still be on your mind.
The best thing to do is to link her to this site and call her a slut, and say that you had a hidden camera and that if she doesn't have sex with you again, you will publish it on a porn site.
Jason, I agree with your assessment with the charmed up phases and attention seeking motives. BPD and HPD are highly co-morbid.
ReplyDelete::Smirks:: to the rest of it though. At least she's getting some.
@On furlough from the hole . . . enlightening to see another opinion on SW . . . ."cluster A personality types." Very true.
ReplyDeleteAnd I also agree with Jason's comment.
Burrowing into someones mind is a success tactic whether one is running for office, applying for a job or just ole' manipulative control. I feel at her age part of her actions are unconscious. Eventually being too self serving will diminish her power base as we live in a communal culture.
The fact that we are all taking about HER and her perplexing actions just shows how she sucks the life force from others. And does not give back. That will eventually drain her.
Reader, focus on YOU. Your strengths, your goals, your gifts. Forget about how she invades your thoughts and your desire to solve her. She is not worth your" asperion" narrow focus.
Aspies and socios can make good partners if they are 'high functioning.' (more Cluster A type matchings) Raise yourself in the world, swim with high functioning types, I am sure a pretty little charming smiling yet perplexing partner is in your future to unfold your loin, heart and leisure time into something more substantial.
Regarding Vera, my husband's sister.
ReplyDeleteVera's actions:
Sent her oldest son to jail, gave him money to buy and use illegal drugs and alcohol (he started at 14, was never disciplined and was arrested a dozen times or so, and finally jailed at 17 for 2 years).
Made her youngest son sick deliberately, then "advertised" doing it by reporting and seeking attention for herself over her 5 year-old's repeated infections. The child's doctor told her NOT to allow him into the small wading pool (kiddie pool, 8-feet in diameter, filled with hose) bacteria grows rapidly, especially fecal matter from the child's rectal area and the germs disperse and proliferate into the water.
She let him back into this pool anyway--he got very sick and needed hospital--again she began seeking sympathetic attention for herself, but refused to acknowledge causing this problem deliberately.
At a 4th of July barbecue, around year 2000, Vera took a bucket full of this filthy water, and threw it directly into Cal's face. Cal (my husband) has had multiple cardiac stents and had had 2 heart attacks at that point. He was also HIV positive, but none of his family knew that. 24 hours after being hit with a gallon of filth, he started having explosive, projectile vomiting and diarrhea constantly. He was hospitalized for nearly 5 days to clear the infections.
Cal never confronted Vera for this. He said he would "throw the issue in her face" at the right time.
But, Cal was hospitalized in December 2008, this time with a severe heart attack. He was in a medication-induced coma to heal.
Vera found out about it, became hostile toward me for not telling her sooner. (the standing order from Cal is that I NOT tell anyone in his family if he is hospitalized--that he will tell them himself--he doesn't want their "craziness" to disrupt his health resources.)
But I had to tell someone from his family, so I told the brother, and asked that he keep it quiet, as these were Cal's wishes. I had to tell, because I was told Cal may need up to 3 months of rehabilitation. I could never keep this from the family.
But the brother Blabbed to Vera, and she became frantically involved and tried to "take over" the situation, in which there was really nothing to do. The coma would heal, his heart and lungs needed to be stabilized, etc. Nothing for us to do but wait.
So, because I said that Cal can't have visitors, and there's nothing else to tell, Vera called the hospital herself, told them horrible things about me, and Cal, and announced herself as "the family spokesperson" trying to get them to give her all of Cal's medical information.
I was frantic over this, and warned the hospital staff that Cal does not want Vera or anyone else involved except me, so even though we have legal documents, exclusively naming me as "in charge", Vera's allegations were so outrageous they ended up waking Cal out of his coma to ask if he wanted Vera involved. Cal practically screamed NO--Just Bill (me) ONLY Bill! Never Vera!
Despite this, Vera continued and persisted, escalating her allegations, so that when Cal recovered, they tried to administer a psych evaluation on Cal, to see if there was anything of an abusive nature about our relationship. Vera was doing all of this for no reason other than to get back at me for not "reporting" to her when Cal was first hospitalized, which I am NOT obligated to do.
Cal was discharged just before Christmas of 2008. He called his mother, who wouldn't speak to him. His brother wouldn't speak to him, all because of Vera's slander.
Cal died at home on May 15, 2009, (less than 6 months after that hospitalization) without any of his "blood relatives" at his side, just me, as always. I had to call his brother to tell them he was gone, and all they were was angry--not grief stricken--just angry at me.
Any chance of Vera ever getting help or changing. Is she self-aware? Is this socio/Psychopath?
@anon 10:13
ReplyDeleteThat was a very interesting read. Have you considered a career as a freelance writer of fiction?
Aside from changing names, this is sadly not fiction. I wouldn't waste my time--or yours, nor would I discredit the people who post here.
ReplyDeleteIts poorly written, as I had to shorten it down to a max of 4096 characters, and posted here as I stumbled upon this blog just today.
If this offends you in some way I apologize, but again, NOT fiction!
^LOL Jason. You just made me smile. Fucking hilarious.
ReplyDeleteAnon at 10:13
ReplyDeleteBill, You won't find help here. Seek a therapist.
(for fun) Vera should become a nurse or an emergency room tech. That way she could be involved with bacteria, disease, the medical world, drugs and emergencies full-time. Her issue is one of vocation.
ReplyDelete(the spank) YOU are magnetized to her drama and it sucking you dry. (today's topic "getting sucked by hot and cold running people and losing your center")
Look at your own addiction to her drama What part of you is out of control and you are projecting onto her.
If you have the moral code, civiility and the maternal protection mechanisms to right this situation, develop the courage or align yourself with allies who will help your cause.
Careful they eat your kind here.
BORING. WHERE R ALL THE PSYCHOS?
ReplyDeleteNo, I think it would be horrible for the child. Children do not become half and half of each parent, and often times having a household with high levels of competition and genius is not going to build a stable and happy atmosphere, but force a kid to grow up too soon to meet expectations when they should be playing in mud and chasing dogs.
ReplyDeletedo what you want to the kid, there are millions of them. what is one less?
ReplyDeleteThat makes all the sense in the world wise. but i will deny it.
ReplyDeleteHaven, I don't have the same experience as you with empathy.
ReplyDeleteHigh levels of competition is a particular temperament. Not every empathically limited humanoid is wired that way. And genius does not equate instability. You are speaking to the extremes.
ReplyDeleteIt's a spectrum.
I don't get empathy just as much as I don't get religion. I can't imagine what it's like to be another person.
ReplyDelete@notme... idk, I'm trying to take a really, really objective look at how I respond to other people. I don't think it's entirely right that I don't feel empathy properly, but I am sure that a lot of it is centered around why I need and less so about what others need. Even in how I bend over backwards to do things for the people I care about. At it's basest break down it's all an attempt to get people to not leave me, HOWEVER, I wouldn't do it if they were people I want to have in my life because I do care. So maybe it is real empathy, maybe that's human nature. I don't know. I'm just trying to work things out from a perspective I haven't looked at before. It may be totally wrong, but I think it's worth the exploration.
ReplyDeleteI'm also down in a bad way today, so my inner ruminations are rather maudlin.
ReplyDeleteHi, yeah, i should have explained but since it seems like such a broad subject (and to me difficult to pin down) i just left it. lol.
ReplyDeleteI do agree that there is something weird going on with our empathy. I think my empathy is completely bizarre and not normal (most likely if not most certainly). By that, I mean i'm either dripping with it or I feel nothing where I know my brain tells me that i SHOULD be feeling it.
Unlike you though, I'm very empathetic with strangers, sometimes moreso than people I've known my whole life who I'm 'supposed' to feel compassion and other 'stuff' for.
I do believe that I don't have the ability to empathise with someone whose experience has no commonality with my own. I find myself doing mental acrobatics just to insert myself into their world and nod away and produce an emotional response like I understand where they are coming from.
But still, I cry very often at people's pain, and whether that is me projecting my own fears or not, it is still classified as empathy. And as much as life chips away at it, there's still fuckloads left, if not more.
On the whole, my empathy is fucking strange. I certainly have loads more than normal people, but i'd say it's not dispersed properly or something. lol. Or maybe I AM just a cold hearted bitch after all. But that's rather far-fetched. haha.
This comment maybe made no sense. But I give up.
This comment made perfect sense.
DeleteAnd I'm back to hanging out on really old posts, but what the hey.
i also think there's a mental empathy and a physical/ emotional one.
ReplyDeletePeople who say 'you SHOULD feel bad, you SHOULD feel this or that way' are suspect imo.
True empathy is when it actually drives you to do something good for another, have you done that? I say my pleases and thank you when I need to but that's my impression management, I feel nothing when I say these words.
ReplyDeleteI'm much nicer to strangers too but it's not my empathy, it's rather the opposite, I can't understand them so of course I will be suspicious of their motives. I don't know what they are capable of.
ReplyDeleteIt suits women to have BPD i guess, it makes them adorable, sometimes. However, men with BPD are a joke.
ReplyDeleteYeah I have next to no empathy for strangers. I’ll do nice things for them if they’re in my immediate vicinity, but it feels like social obligation to me. I don’t really care. I really does take me getting very close to someone to feel for them. I think I’m so cut off and dissociated from my own emotions so often that it’s hard for me to attach to anyone else’s.
ReplyDeleteIf I am very close to you though, I guess there is an extreme amount of empathy involved so maybe that makes up for the lack of it elsewhere. I don’t know. I don’t care much for anyone today.
I never cry at people’s pain unless it reminds me of my own mortality. I think I used to. I can fake it to look normal. I just, can’t bring myself to let random outside hurt in when I have so much of my own.
I totally understand the bizarreness of BPD empathy though, haha, as just mentioned. SO yeah, I do get the dripping with it or absence of it, but my dripping with it is extremely limited.
I don’t know if I agree with the distinction of mental and physical/emotional empathy. It’s all really emotional I think. When it comes down to mentality, it brings me back to an idea of social obligation and not necessarily some deep inner drive to do something for someone.
@Anon 1:18… BPD makes us adorable? That’s so sweet. Hah.
'People who say 'you SHOULD feel bad, you SHOULD feel this or that way' are suspect imo'
ReplyDeleteer, even though i do that. Haven, I'M HAVING A BAD DAY TOO AND CANNOT ARTICULATE A SINGLE FUCKING THING RIGHT!
ARGH. i'm really really really really really really really lightheaded right now. Anaemic. I WILL NOT CONTINUE ATTEMPTING TO SAY ANYTHING REMOTELY COHERENT OR INSIGHTFUL SINCE I AM INCAPABLE TODAY. fuck it.
That's ok. You're cute when you ramble incoherently =)
ReplyDeletelol, why thank you Haven. *blushes*.
ReplyDeletei just got a hard on
ReplyDeleteYes, it makes me feel superior when there is someone cutting in front of me. I look down my nose snidely at them.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHvIsv9UWCo
ReplyDeleteIs 9:30 too late for a second date?
ReplyDeleteWhen is booty call hour?
Too late? Depending on the venue, that could be when thing get started.
ReplyDeleteAccording the the International Society for Bountiful Booty (ISBB) for new relationships its 10pm and for those that seem to never end its between 12-2am.
If it was going to show or something 9:30 would be fine, but no such mention.
ReplyDeleteGonna pass and try for lunch, perhaps.
Slow and steady, as she goes . . .
ReplyDeleteSmart move. Yet curious to the venue?
He didn't say. He did give me option of daytime, though.
ReplyDeleteI hope he's a meat eater.
anon 10:13
ReplyDeleteDude... that was friggin 2 years ago and you're still clung to it. It doesn't matter anymore. Vera's attention seeking behavior is so intense you got sucked into it and 2 years later you're talking about the matter as if it was all about her, how she did things, how she ruined your relationship, etc, you bought her crap and made it all about her... when you should be thinking about you and Cal exclusively.
And BTW, those shaman types are catalysts. His appearance in your life is an affirmation of your transition. And I am sure you will surprise him. ;-)
ReplyDeleteEnjoy the ride. Have some joy. Hopefully you will share many steaks. And I mean that from my heart.
i love a hidden camera and a strategically pointed ass
ReplyDeleteOh I will.
ReplyDelete-----
Today in Stephen Hawking quotes:
"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark."
After death is the same as before birth, whats there to be afraid of?
ReplyDeleteBTW Haven were you abused as a child?
ReplyDeletemen with BPD are a joke.
ReplyDeleteI know of only one male bpd i r l. He had been a good friend, but needed to know everything about everyone, and played his circle against each other. I am just now after all these years putting it together why he told me that our married professor was speaking of me sexually. Now why did he do that? I never contacted this professor again. Years later I called up the professor thinking i really didn't care what that whole deal was about (never bothered to find out the truth. It did bother me but I prob didn't want to embarrass anyone. I wanted to find out where he was teaching. No response.) I am not like this bpd guy. At least I don't think I am. I have pretty good interpersonal skills (unless I feel threatened.....) This bpd guy and I were getting treatment at the same facility, but I was there for bipolar pd. I don't think we were alike. He was asexual, catty, and generous of spirit and I'd say he liked to stir things up, but he was always on the outside, sort of lingering and eavesdropping, and then telling me what other people were saying. He told a brand new b f at a party of mine, that I was a smoker, knowing full well I was hiding the fact. I wasn't pissed but I could see how one would want to be cautious when dealing with his type. No one has ever told me I was like him (until just now thankyou) but idk maybe that has to do with me being different with different people? (I thought everyone was like that )This guy was consistently himself. I'm pretty likeable in the real world, and I have stable friendships. But I do know I am eccentric.
Oh dear, Wet. Did you get your Doctorate of Psychological Manipulation from an online degree mill? Because, Grasshopper, you totally suck at.
ReplyDelete"However, men with BPD are a joke"
ReplyDeleteThats why men have no choice but to attain sociopathy, settle for narcissism or perish trying
Death.... It comes for us all.
ReplyDeleteIn other words women BPD's are scientific fact whereas men BPD's are comedians? Seems like the path to self actualization is a lot more flexible for women than for men. No wonder there's vagina envy, ergo male genital mutilation and hormone treatment.
ReplyDeleteall is forgiven when you have a vagina
ReplyDelete@Wet... No, I was not abused as a child.
ReplyDeleteThats why men have no choice but to attain sociopathy, settle for narcissism or perish trying
ReplyDeleteyou know, i do wonder if my ex was more bpd than s sometimes
o m g, i think my ex was histrionic!!!!
ReplyDeletenow i totally want to be more friendly with him...
ReplyDeleteyou rae an imbecile, anon 7:20
ReplyDelete