(cont.):
A few points:
Narcissists are addicted to admiration. Despite looking down on everyone else, they crave admiration from others. They fish for compliments. They strive to accomplish things to win the admiration of others.
Sociopaths don't need admiration from others. They crave power.
Shame is the uncomfortable perception that one's "self" is bad, and doesn't live up to a societal standard. E.g. you steal something because you want it. You don't feel guilt because you don't think your stealing was bad (you have a different sort of conscience than normal people). Then you get caught. If you feel uncomfortably exposed, that feeling is called shame. Sociopaths don't feel shame. Narcissists feel shame very often, but may be completely ignorant that they are feeling shame.
Narcissists are generally unaware of their thoughts, feelings, how others perceive them, etc. To stay comfortable, they deceive themselves about their shortcomings, by ignoring their own constant thoughts of inadequacy, and ignoring any resulting feelings of shame.
Sociopaths know that they don't have strong emotions. They know they fake emotions to fit in. They don't care about the feelings of others, so they don't feel shame.
Narcissists make great cult leaders. Many founders of businesses (e.g. Steve Jobs, Bernie Madoff) are narcissts or malignant. They will generally explain that they are on a quest to change the world for the better.
A few points:
Narcissists are addicted to admiration. Despite looking down on everyone else, they crave admiration from others. They fish for compliments. They strive to accomplish things to win the admiration of others.
Sociopaths don't need admiration from others. They crave power.
Shame is the uncomfortable perception that one's "self" is bad, and doesn't live up to a societal standard. E.g. you steal something because you want it. You don't feel guilt because you don't think your stealing was bad (you have a different sort of conscience than normal people). Then you get caught. If you feel uncomfortably exposed, that feeling is called shame. Sociopaths don't feel shame. Narcissists feel shame very often, but may be completely ignorant that they are feeling shame.
Narcissists are generally unaware of their thoughts, feelings, how others perceive them, etc. To stay comfortable, they deceive themselves about their shortcomings, by ignoring their own constant thoughts of inadequacy, and ignoring any resulting feelings of shame.
Sociopaths know that they don't have strong emotions. They know they fake emotions to fit in. They don't care about the feelings of others, so they don't feel shame.
Narcissists make great cult leaders. Many founders of businesses (e.g. Steve Jobs, Bernie Madoff) are narcissts or malignant. They will generally explain that they are on a quest to change the world for the better.
I almost felt guilty once, but then she woke up half way through.
ReplyDeleteI don't feel guilt, but i sometimes feel strange when i do something and think that i could have done it better/in another way or then i do everything right, but others say i don't, this is really awkward, since i don't really know what *the right right* way of acting in a situation is :( . But normaly i can get this feeling only if i think about it.
ReplyDeleteAlso i am blushing for some reason :/ . I once thought that this way my brain try to compensate lack of emotions :DD (i thought this before i read aboud sociopathy, but it would be a good explanation :3 ).
Any ideas??
To the topic, this post is very good and explained many differences of narcs and socios to me.
^What an honest, insightful post; it explains that in a sense the narcissistic has no personality of their own - its a front of perfection.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI prevented a rape the other day.... I changed my mind.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read Vaknin's book, it was the first time Mal Narc was ever explained in words but I lived with it my entire life. I understand sociopaths less as I have not gotten behind their eyes. I understand BPD a little as I have had a close friend with it and experienced the wild ride of BPD.However, I can only see behind the eyes of the Mal Narc.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking of something very specific last night.A Mal Narc is considered "lesser" on the scale of PD's than is a sociopath. Mal Narc is considered not as severe of a PD by the general scales.
This is my thought. Mal Narc has more of a solid self than a sociopath. That is WHY the Mal Narc has so much shame. He has a more solid self to shame as compared to a sociopath.
My life experience bears this out. The only time my mother would back off was when she was in a shame spiral or if I made myself small enough that she could feel better than I. So, that small warped self she had saved my sanity as it provided a way to get her into a different "shift" from no empathy and sadistic.
If the sociopath has no means to 'regulate" such as this, the child of a sociopath will have a much harder time than I did.
I don't think you can do that with a sociopath.
Jesus Monica get a professional therapist already! By not getting real help and just living in the past on a sociopath forum, you are keeping yourself a perpetual victim of your mother (and finding out which label suits her does not help you, getting help and focusing on you helps you).
DeleteYou dont want help because without your mom to blame your life on you will have to be a big girl and live your own life. You would rather be pitied than healthy. Thats pathetic.
If I could find a therapist who was more than a talking head spouting fake BS, I might try. Getting a Phd from Harvard does not make one wise. Facing reality without BS makes one wise.People do that here(some people). Healing is not complicated. When you can face yourself as you are and life as it is--without lies or deceptions--you will be well. That is my goal and it is working. Luckily, I don't need your approval. If I did, I would be screwed up he he
DeleteI don't need healing. I'm an asshole, and just fine with that :)
DeleteYou make excuses. I do not value a Harvard degree or even a PhD over a community college social worker. Someone who is trained who is not you (people used to use gurus or witch doctors or preachers or tribal elders) who can clue you into the mess that is your head.
DeleteYou dont want to exorcise your demons because you (incorrectly) believe that having them makes you special. No one is special and everyone is special. We are all exceptional already because we are all the products of a racetotheegg winning sperm. That right there is out greatest accomplishment, the fact that we managed to exist is the 'best' there is. You choose the quality of your existance through action and inaction.
It appears that you have a ladder of better-than positions? My goal is to have a horizontal position
Deletemoving toward others.
^Anon 9:38 post was for Monica.
DeleteAnon 9:03 You are an idiot.
DeleteAnon 9:38 What do you mean. That sounds interesting.
I thought Steve Jobs was a sociopath. He would seemingly get very angry if he thought it was a good way to get something, but the next day he would not be angry at all. He also refused to register his car and wouldn't pay his daughter's tuition to Harvard.
ReplyDeleteHe could be just an angry bastard, though.
DeleteAngry bastards remain angry for long periods of time and get angry for stupid reasons. Steve Jobs was selectively angry.
DeleteSteve jobs also used to set off explosives in elementary school. He said in an interview he would have ended up in jail if his teacher didn't start paying him to do homework.
Hard to say. I think it would be up to the individuals 'code of conduct' type thing. Not implying morals exactly, but all have things we will and will not do. That determines how one would act with their own offspring. Personally, I don't see what there is to gain by being cruel to your children. I've never had any, but would imagine the real power to be drawn would be from your spouse. Not saying Sociopaths never abuse children, because they do. I could see neglect as more of a probability. You are right, there is no shame switch, or ego to manipulate. When I fight with someone, I don't stop until I'm satisfied with the destruction I've caused. I had a counselor tell me once that I was "scorpionic" because I would kill myself just to hurt someone else. Still not sure what she meant by "scorpionic" but the rest of it rings true. So if that answers your question, there's nothing that I can see that would stop that process once its started.
ReplyDeleteUH! ^ for Monica.
DeleteA scorpion will sting himself to death before he allows another to kill him.
DeleteThank you, Grey. We co-dependents need a lot of Atta Boys
DeleteIs that like you bite yourself in front of the person? You say here you go.. you wanted a piece of me, well here it is. I have bitten myself FOR you. How ya like me now with one eye? It disables them from harming you because you have done it? You have disempowered them from doing so?
DeleteI think she was trying to say that I would harm another at any cost.
DeleteInventorying all the warped shit I'm guilty of, I don't know if I remember doing quite that anon 1:21 described. I may have? It probably worked.
DeleteThe scorpion will kill itself if it is surrounded by enemies RATHER than let an enemy kill him. He stings himself to death.
DeleteThat's when they walk away thinking you're nuts, but they also wonder what they did that made you so crazy mad. Like if someone's doing you a nice favor cutting your hair, say, and they're doing all the styling wrong. You just take those fucking scissors and chop off your hair so they can't fuck with you anymore. And then you're bald and they're looking at you like you're a psycho.
DeleteBut they walk away lol. Cuz ur holding scissors!
lol!
Delete@ Monica, thats interesting about scorpions. It seems in line with my desire for control. I would gladly deprive an enemy of that kind of satisfaction. ...If I was a scorpion. ;)
DeleteThere is something very beautiful about the Scorpio, very poignant. I never forgot this story, Grey.
Delete*scorpion*
DeleteAgreed. What a strange trait. Sounds mythical. The only scorpion I ever encountered did not die in such poetic fashion.. :)
DeleteYes, it does sound mythical.
Deletei'm so great that i don"t even need somone te tell me that i'm
ReplyDelete1ST
mouhahaha
best thing to do as a sociopth is reproduce so we can take over the world.
ReplyDeleteInteresting, i read that some socios can blush. Why? I mean, blushing is connected with shame, right? :o
ReplyDeleteTO MAKE SOMEONE BELIEVE IT (GAME)
DeleteWIll a socio blush if someone sees through their mask and sort of lets him/her know?
DeleteFree will. It exists but it must be earned. One must consciously choose to exist as an individual and part of the whole of the universe and relish the paradox.
ReplyDeleteSocio + empath = whole person
DeleteWe should learn from one another instead of firing off blame grenades.
False. You have no choice, but to have free will.
DeleteIt depends on what we mean by the term.
DeleteI regard it as meaning that we can freely make our own decisions. That doesn't mean we can do whatever we want; I can't flap my arms and fly to the moon. (But I could try it if I wanted, and I can choose whether or not I want to do it.)
While reading Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion," I realized the interpretation of the phrase was apparently different in the 16th century (or, at least, Calvin's interpretation was). He rejects free will on the specific grounds that to him, it means we are free to choose the results of our actions--that we can do what we want, as opposed to merely choosing what we want.
If I regarded it as meaning the ability to choose ends as well as means, I'd reject the notion, too, for the same reason Calvin did: we obviously do not have that.
Brilliant point Anon 9:05.
DeleteThere is no such thing as free will.
DeleteSee Causal Determinism.
For any event of X, there must be a cause that is both necessary and sufficient for X.
Everything we do is because of causes.
Did you not type that yourself Pixi ? no free will there ?
DeleteIndeed, Anon 9:05 that was a brilliant post!
DeleteDo humans have free will -- no.
DeleteDo other animals have free will -- no.
Did you choose to type this question -- yes.
Did you choose it freely -- no.
You are a free agent but you are not free willed. The same holds true for everything in the universe. The choice to type this question was predicated on your biochemical state, which arose from the interplay of your nature and nuture, a string of causes which lead inevitably to the point where you are at right now. You made a choice. You branched on a decision tree. But that branching couldn't have happened any way other than how it did. You were not pre-destined to take the particular branch you took... but that choice was determined by the whole of your past, and was predetermined.
Men are sheep--95%. To break out of that takes a lot and few do.
DeleteIf we define "free will" to be the ability to make decisions that cannot be reduced to environmental or genetic causation, then this probably does not exist, for the following reasons.
DeleteOur actions, thoughts, and beliefs are determined by how neurons in the brain fire and are wired up with one another. But how those neurons fire and wire up are determined by genetics and environment. Hence there are "no-gaps" - there is no need nor room for non-material agency like free will.
Secondly, neuroscientific experiments like the Libet experiment and follow up experiments are difficult to explain if one accepts a libertarian free will, but make much more sense if one accepts that the brain determines all actions and behaviors.
I would also say that moral responsibility is non-existent, but for different reasons that are too much to get into here.
NOTHING IS FREE
Deletefree consciousness
DeleteI don't think the "blushing" is connected to shame. More so anger
ReplyDeleteReply in the right place for visual economy please
DeleteFU
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteHey anon 09:05
DeleteYour answer seems to be logical, thanks, if anyone else has something to say about it, then please, don't be shy :)
Blushing is connected to sex. When someone has figuratively seen you naked you blush.
DeleteClearly I'm not shy, Mee.
I would like to point out that while I believe that many sociopaths here are really just proving themselves narcs or empaths trying to vacation from their own minds to feed a bad boy/girl complex. I am a sociopath and the following are questions you must ask before you accept the answer.
ReplyDeleteWould a sociopath answer any question just to feed your curiousity?
Would a sociopath be telling the truth if he did?
Would that same sociopath do so without turning it into a game of cat and mouse?
If any of the above did accur, would you now be a victim in my game?
Mwuhuhuhuhuhuhuhaha
DeleteYou're good :)
Well, actually
1.)He might if he has time and is anonymous. It's a way of spending time, also you can play or try to control comments or sth.
2.)He wouldn't if that would do something bad for him. I would never tell about myself more then i should. But you don't have to always lie, something is just not worth lying, sometimes it's more fun to tell the truth.
3.)Everything is a game...
4.)Playing - yes, victim - no, not yet.
Another argument about why socio would write here (apart me doing this) is, well you claim to be one, but you are anonymous, so you can write whatever you like, so, since you are reading this really interesting blog, why not to comment something...
Also i don't really care who are posting comments i observe the information and calculate.
So, right now i am wining this argument :)
You seem to be very arrogant.
DeleteNope, possibly but probably not, and possibly - it would depend on what the sociopath believed could be gained from the transaction.
DeleteWhat makes you think your little post has any bering on my life?
ReplyDeleteThe fact that you cared enough to defend yourself says that you are already playing my game.
Deleteha ha ha true dat
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI don't require your support wannbe.
DeleteHmm damn, no edit button. That was to be wannabe
DeleteHa ha all you kewl chaps are failing
DeleteUmmm...I think Steve Jobs was a sociopath...just say'n!
ReplyDeleteI just stopped in to say that... I hope you're having an amazing day, M.E. You're blog has really inspired me, and I can't even put to words my gratitude... :D
ReplyDeleteHey Raven
ReplyDeleteDem's fighting words.
Theme Song for Monica and Raven fighting for the heart of ME
ReplyDeleteFighting? Heh...
DeleteMUD WRESTLING Eden
ReplyDelete^Hi fake Monica
DeleteWhat ARE you talking about?
DeleteBikini Mud Wrestling. The winner gets ME.
DeleteWhy would I do that?
DeleteYes, you do not have a cutting edge sense of humor. I forgot.
Deletehaha! Cutting edge? What's so cutting edge about what you purposed? To me? It sounded like something typical of a skank. Like a Girls Gone Wild, kind of deal.
DeleteWhich is the only funny part of the whole thing, because you come off like total prude the majority of the time.
Obviously you were trying to appeal to M.E. on a visual level, sexually. You weren't trying to be funny.
Eden I say this with total honesty. If you had a little humility, you would gain a lot.
DeleteThis is the real Monica--unplugged.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of narcs, I just couldn't resist sharing about one of my relatives (by marriage). This man just loves to present himself as a rugged, handsome, noble, fearless samurai warrior. I mean, he surrounds himself with Japanese paraphernalia, including numerous swords (some wooden) and fancies himself a great aikido master. Never shuts up that he is 1st dan and just loves to walk around in the black aikido skirt (black belt equivalent). I honestly don't know how his sensei puts up with him or his antics, as he just loves to humiliate newbies to show his greatness. Acts like a pathetic little bully to anyone he thinks will not fight back. It's especially good when you consider that he is a 45yo, balding, overweight, highly unattractive white guy with bad teeth.
ReplyDeleteHe also recently bought a digital video camera and now considers himself the next Tarantino (only younger, better looking and more talented -his words). He's even writing his own scripts and trying to recruit beautiful women to be his actresses - free of charge of course, as he's giving them their big break. No takers so far, but he's forever hopeful.
The only way he can get jobs is if he lies out of all proportion on his resume. They hire him for managerial positions, he fucks everything up and alienates everyone with his grandiosity within the first month. The other workers usually rebel and he gets fired quickly. He has successfully managed to antagonise all the major players in his field, so is now almost unemployable and completely broke.
For all his fine qualities, he is desperate to find a partner, but can't seem to attract any. At least any that are good enough.
When I poke and prod, he seems to be ashamed of his life and failures and shows real sadness. Then he tries even harder to impress me. I can't help but like the idiot though, he provides me with endless amusement.
that last part makes me think empath with tiny weeny winkie syndrome
DeleteFunny!
DeleteLol!
DeleteZoe, I've been suspecting as much about him for a very long time, but am definitely not game to prove/disprove my theory.
Grey, if you think this is funny, I wish you could see this guy wearing his hakama (aikido skirt), waving a wooden sword Samurai style and making warrior faces/noises! Classic comedy.
or maybe he's a little vertically challenged? it sounds like he's over compensating for something, which i guess us what narcissists also are, big time over compensators.
Deletetell him to lose some weight, shave his head and fix his teeth :)
Lol. Zoe, he's 6 foot 1 tall, so my guess is still narc with wee willy syndrome. Giving him advice is useless: he never takes it, always thinks he knows best... then fucks up again.. then comes running back to me for help.
DeleteTrust me, even if all that was fixed, he'd still be highly unattractive and an utter wanker, just not as amusing. So then he might bore me enough to lose me too ;)
lol
DeletePriceless!
Deletegreen eyes
ReplyDeleteHow long does he stay in this shame or sad mode? Or is he
just doing lip service?
How long does a bordreline stgay in the shame/sad mode?
DeleteIt's pervasive. We walk around hiding it. Any attempt to step out of it is just that. It's a respite outside hell for spell.
DeleteYeah, my girl talks dirty when she's just trying to get her mind off her problems. It's her go-to place. I'm used to it. Sex talk is funny to her like a little kid.
DeleteMy relative (above story) seems to go into this shame mode only when I'm feeling sadistic and keep pressing and asking very inconvenient questions, but only a few hours at most at a time. He stays 'sad' about the 'mistreatments' life throws his way for much longer, although claims he is scared to talk to me about it too much, as he's worried about boring and alienating me. He just works very hard at trying to prove how awesome he is otherwise.
Deleteare there any sociopaths out there who sleep all day and don't work?
ReplyDeleteI'm just stopping by to tell you how beautiful I think you are M.E.
ReplyDeleteSo beautiful.
Excellent post! I believe that I have some of the symptoms of a mal narc and a sociopath, but I expect that a lot of people do and that if I'm acknowledging such symptoms, I'm probably neither a mal narc nor a sociopath. My father was a sociopath and I endured years of my borderline mother shrieking that I was "turning out just like him" (she also told me, on several occasions, that she didn't care if I turned out like him as long as I stayed away from the booze, which is what really brought him undone. His criminal record didn't bother him because he was so damned charismatic that he managed to convince employers and real estate agents that checking his criminal record or credit rating was unnecessary). To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't mind reclaiming some of the traits that my mother likened to his when I was a teenager - I seem to have outgrown many of them, though. I kinda wish some of them would come back.
ReplyDelete.
DeleteI hear you, Selena
DeleteEverybody has there quirks. But at the end of the day we're just people trying to live life. Enjoy it. Stop trying to catagorize your self. No ones perfect.
ReplyDeleteA good informative post that you have shared and appreciate your work for sharing the information.
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