I’d like to raise a topic that I don’t believe has been discussed in full depths on your blog as of yet. I think it’s fair to say in all probability that ‘sociopaths’ can’t learn how to be ‘empathetic’, but can ‘empaths’ learn how to be ‘sociopathic’?
I first stumbled across your blog around 18 months ago, and I really was mesmerised. I scrolled through the pages until I had read every single blog post. Identifying similarities in the traits you discussed with my own. At last I had found the answer, I’d found who I was; I finally knew why I had always felt so different from other people. And it was that online epiphany that changed my life. The struggle I once had with myself; the internal fight I had every day to decipher which decisions to make was no longer there. I no longer undertook the mundane task of choosing between my impulses and what society had told me was ‘the right thing to do.’
I quickly learnt the advantages of manipulation, and I loved it. I manipulated the people around me, not because I wanted the things that they offered, but because I loved the thrill. The constant excitement of just seeing how much you can get out of people, while still having them worship the ground you walk on. On the occasional days I didn’t have evening company; I’d sit in the nearby orchard alone and think about the things I had accomplished, laughing for hours to myself at how ridiculously blind people really are. As crazy as it sounds, to me at that moment, I was God.
Since that initial epiphany all those months ago, a lot has changed in my life. I’ve achieved everything I could have only dreamt of before. I’ve made a successful business from nothing, climbed to the top of the social ladder, and married the girl I’ve been fascinated by since the age of 12. Yet I can’t help but ask myself, at what cost?
I’m going to be the first here to admit, I was a fake. I honestly don’t even know if ‘sociopaths’ even exist. But from the definitions found on this blog, I knew I wasn’t one, even if I liked to believe I share the same traits. At the time of finding your blog, I was in a low place, I had no friends, and I didn’t have a good job. My life was worthless and meant nothing. Then via reading the posts on this blog and finding fake similarities within myself, I was able to willfully delude myself into the belief that my life could mean something. That I could be who I wanted to be, do anything I wanted to, and most importantly just not care what others thought (which had always been what had held me back from achieving beforehand.) So I consciously learnt how to act like a sociopath, and how to shake off (dilute) the remorse and guilt for my negative actions towards others. It got easier and easier, and day by day I got better at it. It really was exhilarating; the most amazing internal experience of my life. Did I learn how to be a sociopath? But now I sit here wondering if I can ever get back what I lost in that pursuit? Will I ever feel my own empathy as I did before? And if I could, would I even want to?
FIRST!! Read it and weep
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I don't see what the problem is here.
ReplyDeleteYou stopped being a victim or martyr or just general weakling and started taking control of your life. What's wrong with that?
If sociopathic traits (be they inborn or somehow acquired) help you make something of yourself, be happy. Enjoy your success. Empathy is seriously overrated. As long as you are not maliciously harming people, there's no problem with manipulation as far as I can tell.
Would you really want to go back to being a loser who does nothing but covet things he will never have, but genuinely feel for people?
Well said. Reader sounds like a whiny bitch seeking approval. I think the question is valid, though. M.E. has covered it enough i.e. nature vs. nurture in sociopathy. For my two cents as an.. empathically challenged whatever, I suspect you can mind-fuck yourself into a lot of beliefs/mindsets, but I doubt you could ever shake off the shackles of empathy completely, if you were born to it.
Deletegreen eyes
DeleteThis is what I don't get about you. If you care about your patients and care about people in your family in a seemingly impassioned way, how can you be a sociopath?
She is not a sociopath, anon 226. She is one of the most obvious sociopath-wannabes of this blog.
DeleteMaybe I'm not. It doesn't really matter to me, I actually like who I am, regardless of what label is put on me. I identify with sociopaths because I see a hell of a lot of myself there.
DeleteIs it really so impossible for a sociopath to care about her husband? A person that genuinely makes her life more fun, more challenging and simply far better. As for the rest of my family, I don't speak to about 90% of them. I do however, play lots of games with them (through third parties if nothing else). The ones I do have contact with, it's done purely on my terms. So if you talk to my family, they'll tell you I'm pure evil :)
I chose to be a nurse because I love the excitement, crave the unpredictability and thrive on the chaos that dealing with seriously ill people brings. I was great in palliative and oncology because whilst I do everything possible to make the person feel better, I don't get carried away by emotion. I don't get attached or fall to pieces like most of my coworkers when a patient they liked dies.
I befriend and manipulate the support staff (eg cleaners) everywhere I go. By being very sweet and caring to them, I get favours done for me eagerly. Other nurses that hold themselves to be above the support staff, get told to shove it. I win, my patients win, the support staff win.
Helping people is an added bonus, not the driving force behind my career.
well, green eyes
Deleteyou are a surprising person and in a good way.
Beautiful story of success based on the “epiphany” of discovering that if you put empathy and remorse aside you will get money, love and respect. This kind of low-cost Self-help lies within everybody’s reach. Discover online and all of a sudden that you can manipulate others and finally get what you had always wanted, big money, the girl of your dreams, prestige and envy. We guarantee it works or you get a total refund.
ReplyDeleteDorian Gray made himself the same question. If you are handsome, rich and powerful chances are you will behave and feel sociopathic. I think that socios often forget how empathy challenged people in general actually are. Take a glance at school memories, that wonderful savage world: did kids care at all at other people's feeling, did they thrill in winning, humiliating and manipulating around? They certainly did, and there were only those who couldn´t who became the good kids.
ReplyDelete". . . there were only those who couldn´t who became the good kids."
DeleteWell said.
Either Dorothy Parker met only socios or rather...
ReplyDelete"He'll be cross if he sees I have been crying. They don't like you to cry. He doesn't cry. I wish to God I could make him cry. I wish I could make him cry and tread the floor and feel his heart heavy and big and festering in him. I wish I could hurt him like hell.
He doesn't wish that about me. I don't think he even knows how he makes me feel. I wish he could know, without my telling him. They don't like you to tell them they've made you cry. They don't like you to tell them you're unhappy because of them. If you do, they think you're possessive and exacting. And then they hate you. They hate you whenever you say anything you really think. You always have to keep playing little games. Oh, I thought we didn't have to; I thought this was so big I could say whatever I meant. I guess you can't, ever. I guess there isn't ever anything big enough for that.”
Not every man who doesn't pay attention to his wife is a sociopath. Not every man who refuses to listen to the complains of his wife has a neurological problem; some of them just act like that, by choice or just because it's more comfortable for them.
DeleteI didn't mean that every man who doesn´t pay attention etc. It called my attention the contempt towards weakness. Ant the fact that the game and the manipulation is what in fact in going on whenever two people relate to each other. If you are smart, you realize, if not, you might call yourself an uberempath (I have always find this kind of people only exist in Me's mind :P. Of course I believe there are socios who are born with an special ability to manipulate and who lack a cosncience etc, I only mean that the boundaries between a socio and an empath are blurred and by o means easy to determine.
DeleteI believe you can flip a switch, because I did, but it doesn't happen this way... if you're a genuinely empathetic do-gooder, you have powerful breaks that can't really be pushed through ! I think if you did manage to lose empathy through sheer will, you definitely have a mighty mind.
ReplyDeleteThat's not the way it happened with me. There was a methodical deconstruction of my personality , gentle pushes on my boundaries , slow withdrawal of all human warmth, and this steady gentle training was interrupted seemingly randomly by horrific psychological shocks (getting less and less "horrific" to me until I reached the point where I could shrug and laugh at any attempt to traumatize me). I still had empathy , I think, but I couldn't feel it anymore . Then last year my children were in latent danger , I cried for 3 days until the switch flipped . I had to protect them, and to achieve that i had to stop crying like a retard. To stop crying about my children being in danger , I had to stop caring . I flipped the switch: to save my kids, I stopped having any feelings about what could happen to them and started organizing and planning .
Now obviously I can't get my feelings back and I really don't want them back.
I really doubt you can lose empathy without some sort of trauma, if you were born with it.
We have old St. Paul who asked: what’s the use for a man of winning the world, if he loses his soul? I suspect we could substitute soul for empathy and we would be expressing clearly the opinion of this reader, and of many others. You have to kill your feelings to obtain material advantages. But why should we? I mean, you can have them both, honestly; you don’t have to become a monster to survive. That’s a very old idea, dating back to the middle ages.
ReplyDeleteMonster. That's all we are to the empaths, Monsters.
DeleteThis is a classic example of how misunderstood we are. I remember someone posting that empaths see anything unknown to them as threats. We are just threatening monsters, out to steal your jobs, money, lovers and very souls. Yes, that is DEFIANTLY what we are.
Now THAT'S a very old idea, dating back to the middle ages.
Very right, but in the middle ages it was witches and wizards what they feared, not sociopaths.
Deletereality is you do what you have to do to get ahead. Don't over analyze or become philosophical....it gets you no where all people are manipulative, deceitful and not very nice it's just a matter of degree. The honest man who never tells grey lies, or spins things to his advantage, or is at times ruthless will never get anywhere. Nice guys really do finish last.
ReplyDeleteThere's nothing wrong with being a "nice" guy as long as a person is happy with their lot in life it's fine. But if someone is ambitious and "wants" something in order to get it the gloves need to come off at times and sometimes the rules need to be broken.
This is not to say that once you get what you want you need to be an a**h***. some of the most ruthless people I know are also the most charitable. They will go out of their way to help someone. Is it because of empathy? I don't think so..but it doesn't matter. all that matters is the result. Sociopaths aren't all bad people. In fact they are some of the most accomplished individuals around us. They become accomplished by tuning out the "noise" the emotions, norms, rules things other people waste their time and energy on and focus only on themselves and getting what they want not what others say they should want or get. It's all about the "me".
In a capitalist society manipulation is legal, it’s accepted, it’s rewarded, it’s taught in schools, analyzed, improved if possible, and recognised as a discipline in which excelling is a honour. Fathers manipulate their children, and children manipulate their parents; when they do it right, they get a price and a lot of approval. Children who do not seem to be gifted for manipulation are looked on with uneasiness and pessimism by their families. Leadership is not conceived without manipulation, and the same with success. The bulk of the national and international trade relations are firmly based upon manipulation. In this context, who could claim the discovery of manipulation? Where’s the big deal? What are we talking about really?
ReplyDeleteIt's a nice story, but it doesn't sound very real to me.
ReplyDeleteAnd it brougt me the question "am I really a sociopath" back. Sometimes I would like to be empathic.
Ok, I made a conclusion that I'm either a sociopath or something very close to it, that will be the answer to this question I raised...
DeleteYou may be disassociated, Mee. That feels like a sociopath as you are numb and you don't care about things you think you should like hurting people etc. You are cold inside.
DeleteI thought I was a sociopath but I was not. I was disassociated. I am coming out of it, now. Thank God.
There are a thousand reasons why a person wouldn't feel the right feelings on the right time and spot. Feeling them is THE infrequent thing; I normally don’t care if I don’t feel the same the others are feeling … Why should I? If I know what they want, what they need, that’s more than enough.
DeleteWell I don't care about hurting people and don't want to hurt them. But I would be able to even kill one if I would need to, and I wouldn't feel anything but a relief that this act made me get away from a problem. People are objects and I won't break anything for no reason :)
DeleteBut ill go to read about your suggestion now, I won't loose anything even if I won't fit it, I can only gain more information by doing this :)
But I would be able to even kill one if I would need to
DeleteAnyone is capable of typing those words.
Hypotheticals are useless.
Normal people also don't cry at grandma's funeral.
Nope, Monica, I don't think that I am dissociated, I observe my surroundings and I am not sad and so on.
DeleteJose, I won't write my whole life story just to make you say: "well, Mee, you really are a sociopath" its just not worth the time and I won't gain much by doing it. I sometimes raise doubts but they either aren't logical or aren't real. So start treating me like a sociopath, lol, then we might be able to discuss more interesting things. Actually you can think what you want, I won't try to argue with you about it, because it really is pointless and boring.
You seem to really need validation.
DeleteYou seem to really desire validation.
DeleteYou seem to really desire validation.
DeleteYou seem to really desire validation.
DeleteI want to know the truth and while analysing myself and my surroundings I came up with me being a sociopath. And yes I don't completely trust even myself, so I would like to get a validation, Jose might be able to make me believe that I'm not, but his arguments are too weak at the moment.
DeleteTo the topic: I don't understand why one would want to learn to be anything, we are what we are. And I would like to be sure about my indentity.
P.s. why would I agree with Jose if I don't think that he's right?
P.p.s. other disorders don't fit for me.
Why does it matter?
DeleteAnd I would like to be sure about my indentity.
Um, aren't you still who you are, label or not? Do you really have no identity without an external label? That's all you seem to care about, as opposed to the actual substance of who you are, in and of itself.
That's pretty sad.
I'm sure about my name, gender, age and that I am a human (but I might be an alien, lol) . Actually I never tried to think about myself, until I finded out about ASPD, I was and am just a tool for reaching my goals or simply to exist. Other people are tools too. Things in my world are divided into useful and not. For me the purpose of this blog is finding out more about myself, because I relate to almost everything here, and just to gather more information, I am interested in psychology, I think. I am sad (sometimes) when I fail at something, but there's nothing to fail where is nothing to gain. I might sound dull now, but I have a box of emotions in me and others would say that I am a pretty lucky happy guy. I am not a narc, because I don't want to receive admiration from others, I either control them or hate ones I can't or don't want to control.
DeleteSo am I a socio or wanabe or something else? Feel free to write anything I won't care about it if I won't think that you're right.
In addition, if I look deeper inside me, i only found coldness and rage. If I were god I would kill everyone, destroy everything and kill myself, so there would be nothing left. Only thing that stops me from doing bad things is fear of being locked in a smaller prison (I consider Earth to be one big jail, you are smart enough to understand why), so I developed a very good control of myself. But I am only afraid of being controled by others, nothing else scares me.
DeleteAguess I am more sociopathic then you, so there's no point for me to be here.
P.s. I think that I had to make my father feel more comfortable when his mother died, but there are enough family members left, so I will act differently next time.
Mee: the best thing you could out of the confirmation that you are a sociopath is a fictional identity, and I wonder how could that help you.
DeleteStill looking for validation, I see.
DeleteYou are depressed with suicidal ideation, not sociopathic.
Mee
DeleteI am going to ask someone to come and talk to you. I will see if this person can as I think it would help.
Jose, I agree, my fictional identity wouldn't fool me.
DeleteMedusa, well obviously I am looking for validation. But no, I am not depressed or suicidal I'm just a bored misantrophe. I would never kill myself (except the situation I wrote earlier, because it would be interesting if everything, all world, all universe would be gone and for that I should be gone to, I am a slice of this world). And I am not depressed, I read about it, it doesn't fit. But you have to admit that it really is boring when you go out to do what you have to do and everyone around you a going from point A to point B and you can guess where they are going by their clothes, looks and walking speed. EVERYTHING IS SO POINTLESS! All these living creatures, all relationships and shit.
Monica I need no help, seriously. Also how would you want to help me, what to change?
I have to admit that droping the mask here and writing shit down made me feel even better when before.
I came to a conclusion that there's no point for me to be here if I am not a sociopath and there's no point to stay if I am. Because im either don't have any reason to stay or you aren't useful enough for me and I am only wasting my time.
DeleteSo... aguess its a goodbye :)
Wait Mee
DeleteI just asked my friend to come on. This is a very special and wonderful person who can answer better than I can!
I must have put my comment in the wrong place, again. Anyway, Mee, don't go. I asked my friend to come and talk to you. I think she can help a great deal. I have not heard back, but hopefully she will! x
DeleteOfc I'm staying, how could I leave something so entertaining, lol
DeleteAnd bring that socio girlfriend of yours too, Mon :)
LOL What I do for you, Mee.
DeleteHello people, actually I can't be sure if I have some kind of disorder! But I think I would be very interesting for shrinks.
DeleteActually I really apreciated having this label, because it explained everything."why this, why that, oh, that's why" :)
Well I'm pretty sure that I have sociopathic traits, borderline, huh? Also I might have dashed the narc label too quickly, but I just prefered sociopathy too it, because I read about narcisism after I had diagnosed myself (long time ago). Is it possible to be a narc without wanting to get admiration and shit from others?
Also I would really appreciate that you would explain why you think that I don't fit to sociopathy.
To be honest I am obsessed with finding an answer here, because It's really entertaining, I wouldn't start acting differently when I would be sure about myself :)
Medusa,
DeleteSo what if he wants help? It is a good thing, not a negative thing as you imply when you use the word "validation". No man is an island.
If my friend does not come to help, I have learned enough to ask you some things, Mee! x
DeleteMee
DeleteI was going to come back and ask you some things but I realized that I don't know enough about you to begin. Even after beginning, I may not know enough to go anywhere
Please, stay around as you make SW special for me( narcissism on my part lol)
Interesting. Well it's hard for me to believe that I am not a socio for a few reasons.
Delete1.) All symptoms in lists fits for me (I even asked a few colegues about one or another symptom and they confirmed them).
2.) I don't know about thinking, but my actions fit this disorder too.
3.) I did many tests and all were positive (scored more when 30 in Hae test and so on), I also made some friends to do them too and they turned out normal.
4.) My childhood was perfect for this disorder (or psychopathy) to form.
Enhlish is clearly not my main language, so It's hard for me to write what I want and I fail here sometimes :)
I don't care (like I am not afraid, sad) if I am a sociopath, but I hate to leave unsolved puzzles and diagnosing is interesting for me, since I like to analyse everything :)
The problem is that I can't solve this puzzle by myself, for obvious reasons, so I write here.
Also I don't fit for other disorders, so I can't say that I'm making this one up.
Could anyone suggest me, why I am not a socio?
P.s. M.E., why you haven't made a new blog post yet?
You ARE empathetic, Mee!
ReplyDeleteHooray!
DeleteOne can feel empathy in others, even in this setting, by text. I can, not to brag about myself, but I can <3
DeleteAnd so can trolls, Monica, the only thing is that they only empathize with angry, ofended people. But if they didn't perceive and recognize anger and negative impulses they wouldn't become trolls, to begin with.
DeleteExplain in more detail, please Jose?
DeleteWell I think that you are wrong about me, Mon.
DeleteLets see: when I was at a funeral, my biggest quest was to make myself cry, or just pretend that I'm sad, because others did it, well I was unable to cry, so I just sat in a corner bored of being in that place...
My friends often tell me to calm down and stop offending others, while I just don't think that I shouldn't.
And sometimes they say that I should be ofended by something while I simply don't give a fuck about it.
I can be irritated when I make myself, others can't cause me any emotions, I create them myself, tadaah.
But I am able to write a nice text :)
Mee: that you are frequently at odds with the emotional environment doesn't make you a sociopath. A lot of people are quite often in situations like the ones you describe.
DeleteMonica: To take delight at making people mad, to enjoy when they lose control, you have to recognise those feelings in yourself, you have to feel them, because otherwise you would never waste your time in such an activity. Enjoying other people feelings, however negative they may be, is a form of empathy; we could call it “negative” empathy.
DeleteHmmmm I don't know, Jose, as Bundy enjoyed the 'feelings" of fear and helplessness in his victims. How would this relate?
DeleteI was writting about not having empathy, not about sociopathy when I wrote those examples :))
DeleteAlso you could be a troll, Jose :D (no offence)
That's the point, Monica, a person who cannot feel, would never enjoy sadistic behaviour. Bundy was not a socio, merely a famous jerk.
DeleteMee, you can't be empathic more than once or twice a day; being it most of the time... that would be exhausting.
DeleteI have to disagree with you there, Jose. There is a line one crosses where one has ceased to have a place in the family of man. That may be the true definition of sociopath/psychopath. However, there IS a line. Bundy crossed it, imo.
DeleteThere is someone on here who is a drug dealer and would sell drugs to kids on the school playground with no remorse. That crosses the line, too imo
DeleteMonica: sure Bundy crossed the line, but it was his acts and the effect of these acts on society what made him cross it. It was society who rejected, condemned and executed him. That doesn't change the fact that he was a jerk. He proved it to everybody's satisfaction when he decided to defend himself in the courtroom.
DeleteI could do that, Mon :)
DeleteAlso what's the point of killing if you aren't able to get any benefit or satisfaction by doing it? I think that you can enjoy killing even while being apathetic, because the ability to end someone's life should make you feel good even without emphaty. But I have no experience in this area, maybe there is a killer who would like to share, here?
Look, Mee, killing is a time-engrossing hard task, takes time, ability, poses high risk, etc., doing it for the satisfaction of seing someone submitted and suffering is stupid enough; if you don't even feel that satisfaction, then you are more than stupid, you are fictional.
DeleteMurder, I think, isn't that much different from doing drugs. For someone with a very low boredom threshold, it's one of the very few exciting things left to do.
DeleteIt is weird ,Medusa. I don't understand boredom. I have been bored less than 10 times in my entire life. I am always busy and always find something interesting to do, even if it is making soup like I am now.
DeleteI've never understood boredom either, until very recently.
DeleteThat is because we take care of it.
DeleteHOW you take care of it becomes a problem in it's own right, though. Doesn't it?
DeleteIf Mee has empathy, I do too! I am the anon with the false self, Monica!
DeleteYes. I get addicted to things and that is an excuse for moving forward.
DeleteAddictions are the best fake movement one can pretend. The endless circle.
DeleteLike you on this blog?
DeleteAm I an addiction? Thanks a lot.
DeleteTo be insufflated.
DeleteWhat is "insufflated"?
DeleteSnorted.
Delete@Jose Javier you 5:56am comment, is one I disagree with, to quote you: "a person who cannot feel, would never enjoy sadistic behaviour"
DeleteSociopaths/psychopaths are known to find things "humorous"...but the things they take "pleasure" from, find entertaining are the things that makes the stomachs of empaths churn. it is not the same kind of humour that empaths have, but there none the less.
"Bundy was not a socio, merely a famous jerk."
Again you are wrong. Ted Bundy was in no doubt a psychopath.
One who I would not label a psychopath/sociopath however is Jeffrey Dahmer. Many traits yes, but there is evidence of genuine remorse from him.
He got Born Again, though. That makes a true change in a man and a deep one, if it is real lol
Delete-Say, mom, you know what? When I grow up I want to be a human predator.
ReplyDelete-That’s my boy! Come here, dear, and give me a big hug!
Here you can see a practical example on how you can be a socio and an empath at the same time.
;) I don't think it works like that unfortunately...
DeleteAnd where's the snag, would you tell me?
DeleteWell I'm definitely not emphatic.
DeleteWell, what if the mother is the Sociopath, and this child is just being manipulated into being a tool for the parent to prey on people via her child. Done.
DeleteWell, it WORKS like that, you see? We love our children and we tell them they have to be tough, they have to be winners, they have to be leaders, they should show no compassion, no remorse. That’s the message we engrave inside their brains because we fear if they don’t act so they will be pushed out of the race.
DeleteI agree. The competitive atmospheres of the classroom, the business, the social group and the sporting field today are constantly changing. There are multiple ways for an individual to adapt, but showing no remorse and keeping set on always coming out on top is always been the best option.
DeleteJust because of that atmospheres you talk about people WOULD like to be sociopaths, because then they wouldn't need to fight their own feelings all the time, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of them, aren't. In fact I seriously wonder if there is such a thing as a sociopath out there.
DeleteDo you consider yourself one?
DeleteFrankly, I don't care a whit if I am.
DeleteBut there's a difference between caring and considering. Since you mentioned care, maybe you do care, but don't want to accept it?
DeleteLol, I like that word game. To me, it wouldn't make a difference if I accepted being a socio or not.
DeleteNot caring is the first step, you'll get there...
DeleteI'll have you informed :):):)
Delete;) See you on the other side sweetheart.
DeleteI am a borderline and a bipolar and I don't feel like a sociopath because I have compassion. I might be considered low empathy, I might be grandiose, I might have manipulation skills, I might have a flexible personality, I might like thrills, blah blah blah. But I am NICE lol. That's good enough for me. So I am social person with lots of friends but I don't really enjoy to socialize so much? So fucking what? Lots of people are just like me.
Deletei don't care if you want to label me sociopathic. I like to look at the labels and know I am on the spectrum but not full. THANK GOD. No offense, full on socios, but ya got yerself a bad rep. Take it down a notch. I have no empathy for you!
negative empathy is sadism. Not sociopathy.
DeleteExplain, please.
Delete9:17 is correct.
DeleteWell, for me I think I push people away with compulsive pointing to their faults in a semi sadistic way. I do not mean to do it, but I mean to do it. It is impulsive.
DeleteI hide it, I will tape my mouth shut before I push someone away who I want to stay near. And yet I am a viper with bad poison if I untape my mouth.
I think there is a sadism in that, not sociopathy. But really it is a bit confusing.
I always think that because I care, then it can't be sociopathy.
If you don't mean to do it, it's not sadism.
DeleteThere is aggression. It is a fun thing and it is not calculated. Maybe I am angry at the person and am not in touch so I snipe instead of talk because it seems harmless if it falls out of my mouth. Don't know. Prob.
DeleteHTer are other times when I enjoy to poke at a person for no reason. Just a little jab here and there. Maybe I am flirting.
Sex and violence.
DeleteDon't care. But I'd like to know if the other borderlines here do that.
DeleteOh, we all do that, come on, that the WHOLE basis of flirt. Really empathyland is no theme park either.
DeleteVery interesting. I think that all empaths have varying degrees of sociopathic tendencies. Most of them, however, never escape the grasp of empathy, but those who possess many sociopathic traits and some empathetic ones (For example an individual whom seems to exhibit all required traits to be considered a 'Sociopath', yet still feels empathy and love for close family and friends) have the potential to condition themselves into becoming a 'true' Sociopath.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, could men and women like this ever break free of there emotional cages fully? Or do they have the scattered remains of their empathy still influencing them in the back of their minds?
Be interested in you guys thoughts.
Great question!
DeleteRead my post above if you want some background on me. I have physical empathy to some degree, which is not handicapping me since , let's be honest , you don't see many beheadings these days . I don't have emotional empathy but I REMEMBER emotional empathy and deal with my children according to the old rule as much as I can .They're not the only people I use that memory with actually , as it's useful at times , but I get irritated instantly by emotions and feelings in other people . It feels like they're just taunting me, and I have a hard time avoiding pushing the colourful buttons they just gave me to hold for them. But I do fight the urge , sometimes I wonder why and I slip, then I remember I need to keep this particular person around and apologize to the best of my abilities , again fighting the urge to say that it's not my fault if they're so freaking sensitive ... I do keep a few friends , they serve no purpose whatsoever except the yo-yo effect that I find funny: I enrage them to the point they're ready to never speak to me again and I get them back , rince and repeat . But they have no practical value , at least one of them really doesn't , and I still keep her. Sociopaths probably don't do this (i'm not one so it doesn't concern me to deviate from "sociopath norms" lol)and i'm trying to link this to empathy but I have no idea where I was going with this thought anymore so whatever .I have friends who love me and whom I have no feelings for might be the guiding line here.So physical empathy : yes (to some extent ), emotional one, not really , if it's there somewhere I can't feel it.
DeleteI think if you are on the cusp it is a slippery slope, my friend. A slippery slope.
DeleteIf you had empathy (still mix that up with compassion, but whatever) at one point in your life and you consider yourself sociopathic, you should have absolutely no problem going back to empathy/partial empathy/selective empathy/compassion/generosity.
I think it is like a switch, and the more one can easily go there, the faster it happens. If anything, as sociopathic person will be able to morph back and forth through degrees. We do it better than others imo.
aspie wife I identify with you. what is physical empathy? when *you* touch someone physically, you know what they feel in their body?
DeleteAnonymous8:38, I can't know what they feel obviously , but I guess I project what I would feel onto them ? That's the reason why I can't watch one of those youtube videos of people breaking their neck and almost dying, I think I have too much imagination or something and imagine what they're feeling . Since I can feel physical pain, I suppose it's why I "relate " to physical pain. It doesn't switch on for minor things like bumps and cuts though, if one of the kids fall I react quickly because of it, checking for broken bones and THEN comforting them, but I've always been this way, I think that practical detachment in a crisis is probably part of autism , I saved my nephew 's life once by jamming my hand down his throat to collect the pieces of glass he had swallowed (little idiot bit a christmas ball lol) all the while my sister was wailing uselessly , hands on her mouth, eyes like saucers ....so I consider this a gift. It's only when the person is half dead or something that I start empathizing , come to think of it, maybe I'm still afraid of death? This might be the remnants of empathy you were looking for , OP.
DeleteI feel like you. I've done courageous things like that with little effort. I imagine accidents, and like hearing nails on a blackboard, my body reacts. In my body I feel intense reaction to visions, the glimpses of me getting run over by a train, my company being booted through the air by on coming truck.. I can watch it though.
DeleteWell folks, welcome to the Age of Aquarius, where being a decent person means you are a monster!
DeleteDa fuck is aquarius ?
DeleteWe're not talking about "doing the right thing" or trying to appear like heroes btw, just underlining the effect this lack of empathy has on our reactions to crisis .
Empathy has nothing to do with it.
DeleteEveryone has a fight or flight response in emergency situations.
Any proper mother would save her child's life without having to have any empathy 'emotions' first. I mean, for fuck's sake, where is there time for that?
Are all ER doctors and nurses empathy-challenged? Because that is the logic you are using here.
YOU say this, but even though I completely agree with you , in my example , my sister who is the mother of the child was standing in the room and screamed . I walked in on her child, 2 years old, mouth open and bleeding , a mouthful of glass he couldn't spit out, and seriously there she was! standing , screaming , shaking , her hands on her mouth, utterly useless ! Her feelings disconnected her brain , I had to react FOR her. And it's not the only time I've seen something like that happen ! Coincidentally , my mother is a nurse and I've heard about the jokes that happen during interventions,yes doctors and nurses sometimes have to dehumanize patients , an overly empathetic brain surgeon could never operate on a 4 year old otherwise , and nurses who care for people with terminal illnesses the whole day and see them die would have to retire early! They do try not to empathize or have too much feelings about the people they take care of.
DeleteSounds like you had a fight response, whilst your sister had a flight response.
DeleteI don’t think you have to shape your personal identity by deciding if you are a sociopath or not. I don’t even think using those names will help you anyhow. You cannot empathise with everybody, that’s self evident. You have to empathise with somebody, that’s equally obvious, and once this said, the rest is up to you to decide. It is admittedly difficult to stop and start your empathy mechanisms all the time, but it’s like a car jam. You stop moving and start moving several times every minute. Not comfortable, but inevitable.
ReplyDeleteGood thing I wasn't born with empathy ;p I do think that a lot of self diagnosed socios are just empaths who don't fully understand what they are. I find it irritating reading comments from whiny wannabes claiming they are so manipulative, automatically making them socios. This is a gift, curse, weapon (Whatever you want to call it) and NOT a lifestyle.
DeleteSo you are the real McCoy and the others just self fabricated fakes, is that right?
DeleteNot all of them, but I assure you there are fakes out there. The label 'Sociopath' is used too openly. Who knows,maybe in twenty years there will be four subgroups of those previously deemed Sociopaths. Also, I hardly need to prove to a stranger on the internet what I am, no offence...
DeleteI never asked you to prove anything. I just considered remarkable that you were so convinced you are authentic.
DeleteI'm not sure how old you are, but I can tell your old enough to understand that the world is not a pleasant place. One rarely finds an island to call their own in this sea of lies, deceit and merciless opposition. To survive and do it well you must embrace the madness, if you weren't already apart of it to start with. If you require a definition from others to describe what you are, you'll never really be the man or woman you have the potential to be. I consider myself highly sociopathic, if not purely so, but it does not stop me from seeing myself for what I really am.
DeleteFor empaths, you either learn to swim, drown, or somehow be rescued by another. For people like me and you, I assume, we are born as the sharks. It is just a reality.
Well there must be some fake socios here. You sound like a narc to me, but it doesn't change anything. I agree with your idea that sociopathy is not a lifestyle. Also why shouldn't I use the term sociopathy openly here?
DeleteP.s. I'm curious what could you say about me, lol
I guess if I were a socio I wouldn’t be writing here; this is a social place, and I like it. I don’t think I could derive any pleasure from conversation if I were a real sociopath.
DeleteI don't know you, but I probably could tell what you were through a few short encounters.
DeleteWhat I meant by sociopathy being used too openly is that, lets face it, sociopaths are fairly rare, and not everyone with half an ego is one. That's all.
Jose, plenty of sociopaths post on here. Its a place to discuss our differences in neurologically from the general masses, a place to share stories, a place to ask questions, state theories and generally argue with each other over insignificant little things. Sociopaths may be 'Antisocial' but by no means does that mean we don't like a good chat and a post full of lies to mess with all it's readers.
DeleteWell this blog is a useful tool for me. It helps me understand things and there are people willing to answer my questions...
DeleteAlso I still remain anonymous.
I haven't considered this as a social place, but maybe I should.
Social, yes, but in a broad sense. I have been a avid poster on here for over 6 months now, mostly for the answers and the occasional fun debate, but every so often I just talk about peoples lives and experiences. Not a bad way to spend a late night when you have nothing better to do.
DeleteAll that sharing, commenting, discussing, even messing, dissenting, etc., sound very social, by no means "antisocial" to me.
DeleteWell this has been a healthy discussion. Goodnight ladies and gents, we'll hear from each other again, I'm sure.
DeleteAlthough sociopaths might be rare, our culture moves closer to "rugged individualism" all the time- and this is essentially cultural sociopathy. On wall street they just refer to it as greed, but in reality it is sociopathy.
DeleteI agree, in fact I'd say all the talk about sociopathy is but an individual reflection of the intense value crisis in the broad society.
DeleteSome people have other motives for being here besides just to have a nice chat, Señor. There are other things to be gleaned and used.
DeleteAlso, sociopathy is culturally relative. What may be considered anti-social behaviour, in, say, Spain, may not be considered to be anti-social in the States.
And, considering this trend you mention of all this sociopath talk, I see a very real possibility of sociopathic behaviour being normalized to the point where there might be a meeting to discuss excluding ASPD from the DSM-X.
And then all you basement WoW-playing fucks are going to start going around saying you are better than everyone and are God-like because you are an empath (setting aside all irony of such a phenomenon for now).
It's really all about scarcity, that's what gives sociopathy any value.
"I find it irritating reading comments from whiny wannabes claiming they are so manipulative, automatically making them socios."
DeleteWhy do you care so much? You sound like a whiny bitch.
Heh, he sounds like Sean Penn who started crying whilst saying some stupid Kanye-like "Bush doesn't care about black people" type thing about Haiti.
DeleteGlorifying himself by ranting about those who he is convinced are glorifying themselves.
He sounds like Sean Penn who started crying yesterday whilst glorifying himself by ranting about people who glorify themselves.
DeleteManipulation is as old as the world itself. Pragmatism is a nineteen century thought school, which says that everyone believes what is more profitable for them. We could call it self manipulation: The basis of self-help, as a matter of fact. William James defined true beliefs as those that prove useful to the believer. Something, for him, was true, as long as it showed enough cash-value. This is the bible of the manipulator, and it was written more than one hundred years ago. The practice of it, though, is much older.
DeleteJose, everybody knows that.
DeleteYou are giving 'manipulation' much too broad a meaning, considering the context.
There's manipulation, which is common and normal, and there's malignant manipulation, which is, well, malignant.
Some manipulation is desirable, necessary, and inevitable, both for the manipulator and the manipulatee. Other types of manipulation is desirable to only one party. And so on.
Medusa sociopathy can only be valuable if you deem it so.
DeleteI'm talking about value to those who wish they were sociopaths. As well as the value of sociopaths in society.
DeleteBasic economics, really.
I see no difference between malignant and "normal" manipulation. I think medusa is introducing here a moral ingredient I deem unnecessary.
DeleteThat's not the point.
DeleteAnd why are you talking to me in third person? I find that very uncivil.
Third person is the politest person, as everybody knows.
DeleteMedusa will keep that in mind.
DeleteLook, when you recognise no external truth whatsoever and you decide you will only be guided by your personal interest, any distinction between “malignant” and “normal” loses its meaning. You may well say “as long as you don’t hurt other people” but if you are guided only by your personal interest, harming other people is completely irrelevant, and in case you introduce that additional condition “as long as you don’t hurt, etc...” you are recognising an external truth, and will require empathy to keep this truth in mind: that’s to say you are no longer pragmatic. If you act in society regardless of the interest and needs of the other people you will inevitably harm them, that’s the sad fact; you may well say “I didn’t mean it” but it is irrelevant if you meant it or not; the funny thing about living beings is that once you live in their vicinity you must choose either to be their friend or their foe, you cannot possibly remain undecided. In big cities we imagine that is possible, but at the end of the day it isn’t.
DeleteI wasn't talking about my own personal standpoint on the issue of manipulation; I was talking about the psychology world's.
DeleteTheme for Haven
ReplyDeleteLife is full of ups and s downs,heartbreak, disappointments, betrayals, but also happiness,accomplishments,love,and feelings of belonging. Embrace and savour the good times,get over and move past the bad times. Dont live in the past.
ReplyDeleteThose are great words but if you could do it, there would be no mental people.
Deletecliche
DeleteMonica hates platitudes.
DeleteIf this guy isn't really a sociopath and is just faking it, he's going to have a massive nervous breakdown someday, and probably at the worst time possible.
ReplyDeleteAnd since it's on my mind, I'd like to see what would happen to this guy on reality-honesty-forcing psychedelic. I can't imagine it would be a very nice trip.
Why would one have a breakdown, how do you imagine it, what would happen after that (how would it change the person)?
DeleteIf I would see someone breaking down like that I would be annoyed or amused by it. Well it would definitely be an interesting scene :)
I get the breaking down thing. I never had an actual nervous breakdown. Thank Goodness. However, a person breaks down when his paradigm(s) for life don't work anymore. I suppose his paradigm must have been way out or he wouldn't have had to break down in that fashion. I think one has to find some way, short of that, to restructure oneself. The only one that won't hurt you and will, actually, do something is God.
DeleteMonica, please share with the rest of the class, what your personal "god" will actually do for you.
DeleteLOL I will have to come back and do that as I want to think about it, not just spout cheap words.
Deletepeople going through midlife crisis have nervous breakdowns..
DeleteI remember one time someone said here that a sociopath is always going through a mid life crisis..
I wonder a bunch what I should be doing with the rest of my life since I was small. I am in transition now for so long it feels like a midlife crisis .
But breaking down? No.
It is just a feeling of blah mixed in with a desire to shake things up with a burst of instant gratification/stimulation.
Then it goes away. Why don't anything last in me?
Unless you know something the rest of the world doesn't, it is always cheap words when talking about ghosts and gods.
DeleteYou mean anons? You might be right there.
DeleteFor Anon 8:18
DeleteI know a lot of people. I am not superficial and so get to know people who come into my life, at a deep level. There seem to be a few types of people. One has never had to give up his paradigms. He may have suffered to some degree, as we all do, but his paradigms have stood up for him.
The other has suffered a great deal but found ways such as money, prestige, drugs, sex, shopping to plug up the hole(s) when his paradigms did not work.
The last group was mine. My paradigms shattered. If I could have held on to them, I would have.I couldn't.
I had to shift them all. It was either find God or be filled through an addiction even if the addiction was to prestige.
I called out to God because there was no one else there.
I called out to God because there was no one else there.
DeleteThat's kinda beautiful, actually, in a sad way. Why can't the other Christians around here be this honest?
Aw Thanks Medusa.
Delete"I called out to God because there was no one else there."
DeleteThat is a common Christian phrase or lyric, Medusa. Said or sung in different ways, but meaning the same thing.
It is common Christian phrase because it is friggin what happens.
DeleteWe both agree that it is common then.
DeleteYes, when a person truly surrenders to God, there is an acknowledgment that life with it's five senses and material limitations is not enough. The specifics may differ, somewhat, but there is some level of a surrender in all cases. That was what I meant when I talked about the three groups of people. The first two have not surrendered.
Delete"but can ‘empaths’ learn how to be ‘sociopathic’?"
ReplyDeleteno way, not possible!!! like ever! ;)
more detail please. I'm intrigued. I assume they can't under normal circumstances, but can a life changing trauma or breakdown restructure the mind in many ways? Is it possible one such way could be sociopathy. And can drug dependency move an empath further along the continuum, if such a continuum exists? A lack of the hormone serotonin, strongly linked to emotions, is consistent with sociopathic subjects in meta-analyses of psychiatry studies. Such a lack is also consistent with long term users of mdma or ecstasy as it is more commonly known, even it does flood the user with serotonin during the short lived drug experience.
Delete“The narcissist is governed by his or her feelings, the decent person is governed by his or her obligations” – Dennis Prager
ReplyDeleteI'd agree, except the 'decent' part is often questionable.
DeleteI don't agree. Obligations govern nobody. Feelings don't govern you, they get you into trouble, that's all.
DeleteThats why narcissism is called a disorder, duh.
DeleteAnd many people are indeed governed by obligations.
Or are you assuming that Mr. Prager wrote this with you in mind?
Sociopathy is an ideology often mistaken for a term.
DeleteSociopathy is a term often mistaken for an ideology.
Deletelol
Deleteis this were all the freaks hang out?
ReplyDeleteSo, how does one go about finding the best psych Dr ?
ReplyDeleteI'm starting to feel that sociopathy is the new internet Aspergers. If you're a complete asshole and want an excuse: I'm a sociopath! If you're a pathetic wretch and want to pretend you're hot shit: I'm a sociopath!
ReplyDeleteYou're right.
DeleteMee
DeleteYour "diagnosis" or lack of one does not have to rule whether you stay here or not. I hope you stay! x
You believe about lack of self, but don't believe about the diagnosis, interesting.
DeleteAll these people, who feel miserable have to be fucked up in life, I never needed to apologise or find an excuse because all the conflicts were started by other people.
- Mee
for anon 12:04
DeleteYou're probably right to a degree, but then if it is true that between 1 and 4% of people are sociopaths that is a lot of people.
I like this post. I think by contrast its great. Kinda makes you feel like you make a difference, doesn't it? Like ripping apart the wannabe socio makes them grow up somewhere aand improve their overall lives. Like it makes them stronger more capable people to stumble across a blog and discover a facet of themselves that society tends to suppress. I was amused. I think its harsh to be in such strong opposition to someone so unlike every other average annoying sociopath with a code that comes on.
ReplyDeleteI do not think empaths can learn to be true sociopaths. It's not possible unless they get some sort of damage to the brain that effects the area that controls emotions, etc. My niece had a traumatic brain injury when she was 12. Because of it, she's impulsive (especially with drugs and alcohol), very self-centered, manipulative, and is totally not self-reflective. I'm not saying she's a sociopath but she seriously has some issues.
ReplyDeleteI think it isn't possible to become a sociopath, but it is possible to embrace your inner sociopath. All the wild things your subconscious craves, as illustrated by the poster. They're finding balance by what they learned from sociopaths... I can relate strongly to the concept.
DeleteI'm curious if one can become a sociopath due to sociological factors, maybe tragedy or trauma. I'm in no doubt anything can happen to the brain of a physically injured person, but what about an emotionally injured person. Can the brain, as a defence from future traumas just do away with emotions if the conditions are severe enough?
DeleteFor a while... but emotional people can't live that way. It eliminates their satisfaction.
DeletePerhaps I shall coin the term 'Situational Sociopathy'.
DeleteMissus, you are sounding a bit like stav. But not as stupid.
I don't think an empath can choose to be a complete sociopath. They say empathy is learned, to some degree I think it can be un-learned. But a trace of who you developed as will still remain. You can't escape it. I think conditions will arise that require a person to use their primal skills. But that doesn't change who you are fundamentally.
ReplyDeletePart of me resents the fact that someone can "choose" mental illness for the convenience factor. Fuck that. I never got the choice. Wouldn't we all just love to cherry-pick our diseases.
I guess I'm confused about the point of this. Am I supposed to feel sorry for this reader? They made a *choice* - its not my problem.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't understand is how any psychopath could be diagnosed if they didn't want to be. And if they did want to be diagnosed why? My wife is borderline, and she could fool any shrink out there. It must be a cake walk for a psychopath
ReplyDeleteThey can be diagnosed without wanting to be by fucking up and getting involved with the wrong people.
DeleteThe reason they may want to be diagnosed is to validate their greatness by having someone licensed and educated agreeing with their self fulfilled prophecy. Usually the psychopaths trying to get diagnosed as such are narcissists attempting to get a "cooler" label.
It's generally easier to diagnose them if their education is poor, or if they have narcissistic traits. Some of them are also extremely impulsive and that leads them to commit crimes for which an evaluation by a Forensic Psychiatrist is warranted. But to answer your question - yes, an intelligent psychopath could certainly avoid diagnosis.
DeleteCongratulations, you are living the American dream!
ReplyDeleteI love this comment.
Delete"But there has been also the American dream, that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for every man, with opportunity for each according to his ability or achievement....It is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position."
— James Truslow Adams
Sure does read differently in this context, doesn't it?
Reader wrote...I think it’s fair to say in all probability that ‘sociopaths’ can’t learn how to be ‘empathetic’, but can ‘empaths’ learn how to be ‘sociopathic’?
ReplyDeletein all probability we all can learn how to be less deluded.
what about the Stanford Experiment of the 70's? What about boot camp (the army's method for turning empath's into sociopathic killers), what about wealthy people who bring up kids with nanny's and very little love? What about religions that teach their followers that they are different from other people? What about business school? Violence in the media? No child left behind with it's relentless emphasis on competition? There are plenty ways to create sociopathy in people. Its pretty easy. Why do you think the Army came out with "Army of One"?
Deleteis the driver in the movie Drive a sociopath?
ReplyDeleteThat is a fucked comment ^
ReplyDeleteAnd no new post yet? ME must have gotten some big black cock last night.