Monica i am not healing through walking through fire. The only hope I have for myself is to roll like a stone.
I am not a religious person and I don't believe in fate. Esteem comes from within, I do the best I can, I try to be empathic to myself, but it goes and comes.
I find this place is worse than therapy for me, and I find your optimism makes me feel worse. I cannot live vicariously through people, not that that is a goal, it just used to work a bit as a bandaid.
Thank you for your efforts in your "how to heal a pd" posts.
Can you explain more about yourself. For me, now, I feel depressed that Ell said I have the cognitive abilities as a child. Maybe, I do.
that only matters if you need Ell to think otherwise.
how does Ell's opinion, one way or another, have impact on your world? this is narcissism. when the tiniest voice of disapproval buried under some rock in a remote part of the universe (nothing personal Ell!) has the power to topple you.
narcissists live almost entirely within image. sustaining that image requires managing the opinions of others, and that takes a whole lot of energy. why bother? letting the image die takes no effort, and there is no value in keeping it. it only undermines self worth and enables others to control you.
No Zoe It is not because I need Ell's approval. I am not on SW for approval. I am sure I want too much approval in my regular life, but on SW I am here for a different purpose altogether. I want to face myself. I am more real here, than anyplace. This is the inner me--in it's best and worst.
I want to know people's perceptions, so I can face myself.
I know I will get a lot of posts like, "You are a stupid cunt" but I am interested in those, obviously. I am interested in any which will help me face myself.
i get that, Monica, but an image is ultimately an illusion that depends on others opinions. so where does it end? whose opinions matter? the answer, for me, is no one's. i am the judge of me.
i mean i don't want to be with someone to be told who i am, see?
and when you're told who you are, and you accept it, you put yourself in a cage. you cut off every other possibility. i see people doing this all the time, especially women, living out their lives from within the narrow views of others. why?
i agree it's useful to know other people's perceptions, and sometimes a wake up call. but there is no value in letting their perceptions get you down. you want to be solid within yourself. i think the self worth doesn't come from how you see yourself, or how others see you (or maybe it does minimally), but from action, from the ways you prove yourself to yourself.
Well, Zoe, we can't face ourselves if we are frozen. I can't, anyway. I learn to face myself, by jumping into any situation, in as authentic a way as I can, and see what happens.
I have one place, in life, where I am challenged a lot. My ego takes all kinds of bruises, but then it reduces, as a result. I have a dear friend, who has more wisdom than I do, and he helps me to deal with things that happen and to reduce my ego.
I suppose I want ego reduction and an increase in genuine humility, which is a good self concept, based on what is real, not false illusions and distortions.
With Ell, she said I had the cognitive ability of a child. I was thinking that she may be right, in some ways. It resonated with me, so I wanted to look at it.
maybe Ell has something. the only thing i noticed is that you "loop" a lot with your thoughts. this is what thoughts do best. they repeat themselves. the more they repeat, the more entrenched they become. so, there is your mind, frozen, and there is also the concept of being frozen. tricky. you can't unfreeze until you are ready to let go of the concept of being frozen, until it feels safe. but while you're frozen you'll never be ready to let go. so you're stuck.
proving to yourself that you have worth is a way to get around the deadlock. but it has to be action, something challenging. thinking your way out won't work. thinking has too many bullshit traps.
Monica, what I mean is you appear to have some sort of cognitive glitches or impairment in your thinking processes. It shows itself in the way you interpret ideas and these loops you seem to get stuck in. I have no idea what it is, but it seems to make some of your thinking child-like.
Yes, it is complicated, I guess. What about the people who achieve so much but still feel they are losers. It is a multifaceted concept
i heard a few months back from a colleague that they heard i was the best in my field the company i work for ever had. my work was good, i knew that. so here is my question to you, did my achievement happen when i completed the work or when it was recognized? recognition is nice but worthless on its own.
and anyway, it you care about it, it's just a rug someone can pull out from under you at some point down the road. my guess is the people who achieve a lot but still feel like losers measure the achievement in terms of recognition.
if you could choose between writing the most beautiful piece of music ever written where no one else would hear it, and writing something just nice and becoming famous for it, which would you choose? :)
For me, the work and the recognition would be 2 separate and distinct achievements. I know I'm good at what I do, and I set a standard of my own so I know when I've done a good job. External validation is just extra frosting - nice, but not essential. And as you say, people can withdraw praise or validation for their own reasons, at any time.
I had this happen once, and it hurt ... not because I felt less competent or less worthy, but because this person withdrew their good opinion for no good without explanation or reason. I knew there was nothing wrong or different about me, so it came down to them playing games to mess with me. If I'd depended on their opinion as much as they assumed, I would have been crushed, as were other people they discarded at the same time.
It is hard to explain, what I want. I want to feel. I am frozen and numb. I don't want approval as I get a lot. I am not saying this to brag, but I get a lot of love. People build me up, all the time, but it doesn't help.
I have a successful business, which is getting more and more successful, so I am doing my part, in the real world.
I crave anything that will make me experience my feelings, so I can remove this numb, altered of state of consciousness.
If a person is present, in the world, and can feel, he can figure out life, and what to do, as he is getting the accurate signals. If you are numb, you really can't learn from your experience.
V said.. For me, the work and the recognition would be 2 separate and distinct achievements. I know I'm good at what I do, and I set a standard of my own so I know when I've done a good job. External validation is just extra frosting - nice, but not essential. And as you say, people can withdraw praise or validation for their own reasons, at any time.
yeah praise is never free. and it can be an indicator that you're getting typecast. it's better to be a generalist, not indispensable but useful and upwardly transferable. :)
Monica, this is an example of what I mean. When we talked about rage and violence I told you I've been violent to others apart from my mother. I asked you if you think I'm an abuser. You said, 'You're my friend'. To my mind the answer would have been, 'You're an abuser, but you're also my friend'. I suppose it's black and white thinking?
Yes, when you asked that question, I had a very clear inner response. We don't have to label, here. We are all, everything. That was kind of the point of the discussion.
Withdraw into yourself, as far as you can. Associate with those who will make a better man of you. Welcome those whom you yourself can improve. The process is mutual; for men learn while they teach. SENECA
I never realized how much anger I had and I never felt safe enough to express it. It had been pushed down for so long that it was just depression. SW helped me get to this current stage of feeling my anger and beginning to express it. Thank you, Friends ( and those who hate me) That should cover everyone~
Yes, Anon, why don't you give me more to do and then I will be perfect. You better patent your wonderful, new therapy before someone steals it from you and makes millions.
No matter, I will tell you. I have been studying you for a while. You intrigue me, WHAT can I say?
The satisfaction you get from "weakening" people by "bringing them to your knees" as you so drAMAticaLly have put it in the past, are entertaining..
However:
If I may say so myself, your drivel alienates you from people. Yes I'm sure you don't care about most people. (This I share with you as a strange matter of fact, but I digress. I must examine myself more closely to see why. I am sure someone here will provide some insight. Again, I digress. It must be the heat getting to me. Never mind.)
If you would like to make contacts and keep allies or would-be allies, you really must curb your impulse to destroy.
It's considered rude. And blatant arrogance makes people queasy. THIS is how you are too smart for your own good.
There are always people smarter than you, and if you won't reign yourself in, one day you will be flattened.
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fsajhfs first
ReplyDeletehit and miss 2nd
ReplyDeleteWahad.
ReplyDeleteBecause even if I'm not first, I am still number one.
What a comment. How profound. Gives you pause.
ReplyDeleteI find it incredibly sad.
DeleteMonica i am not healing through walking through fire. The only hope I have for myself is to roll like a stone.
I am not a religious person and I don't believe in fate. Esteem comes from within, I do the best I can, I try to be empathic to myself, but it goes and comes.
I find this place is worse than therapy for me, and I find your optimism makes me feel worse. I cannot live vicariously through people, not that that is a goal, it just used to work a bit as a bandaid.
Thank you for your efforts in your "how to heal a pd" posts.
Can you explain more about yourself. For me, now, I feel depressed that Ell said I have the cognitive abilities as a child. Maybe, I do.
Delete"Actors are able to trick themselves into treating anything as if it's fantastic. It's a kind of madness really."
DeleteTom Baker
Can you explain more about yourself. For me, now, I feel depressed that Ell said I have the cognitive abilities as a child. Maybe, I do.
Deletethat only matters if you need Ell to think otherwise.
how does Ell's opinion, one way or another, have impact on your world? this is narcissism. when the tiniest voice of disapproval buried under some rock in a remote part of the universe (nothing personal Ell!) has the power to topple you.
narcissists live almost entirely within image. sustaining that image requires managing the opinions of others, and that takes a whole lot of energy. why bother? letting the image die takes no effort, and there is no value in keeping it. it only undermines self worth and enables others to control you.
but then i am da control freak
DeleteNo Zoe
DeleteIt is not because I need Ell's approval. I am not on SW for approval. I am sure I want too much approval in my regular life, but on SW I am here for a different purpose altogether. I want to face myself. I am more real here, than anyplace. This is the inner me--in it's best and worst.
I want to know people's perceptions, so I can face myself.
I know I will get a lot of posts like, "You are a stupid cunt" but I am interested in those, obviously. I am interested in any which will help me face myself.
Love you, Zoe.
hmm i can't decide if that's a reaction to environmental narcissism or a kind of inborn super power.
Deletei get that, Monica, but an image is ultimately an illusion that depends on others opinions. so where does it end? whose opinions matter? the answer, for me, is no one's. i am the judge of me.
Deletei mean i don't want to be with someone to be told who i am, see?
and when you're told who you are, and you accept it, you put yourself in a cage. you cut off every other possibility. i see people doing this all the time, especially women, living out their lives from within the narrow views of others. why?
Deletei agree it's useful to know other people's perceptions, and sometimes a wake up call. but there is no value in letting their perceptions get you down. you want to be solid within yourself. i think the self worth doesn't come from how you see yourself, or how others see you (or maybe it does minimally), but from action, from the ways you prove yourself to yourself.
DeleteWell, Zoe, we can't face ourselves if we are frozen. I can't, anyway. I learn to face myself, by jumping into any situation, in as authentic a way as I can, and see what happens.
DeleteI have one place, in life, where I am challenged a lot. My ego takes all kinds of bruises, but then it reduces, as a result. I have a dear friend, who has more wisdom than I do, and he helps me to deal with things that happen and to reduce my ego.
I suppose I want ego reduction and an increase in genuine humility, which is a good self concept, based on what is real, not false illusions and distortions.
With Ell, she said I had the cognitive ability of a child. I was thinking that she may be right, in some ways. It resonated with me, so I wanted to look at it.
say everyone thought you were a "loser", then you climbed Everest. you've just proven to yourself that they were wrong. no words can top that.
DeleteYes, it is complicated, I guess. What about the people who achieve so much but still feel they are losers. It is a multifaceted concept
Deletemaybe Ell has something. the only thing i noticed is that you "loop" a lot with your thoughts. this is what thoughts do best. they repeat themselves. the more they repeat, the more entrenched they become. so, there is your mind, frozen, and there is also the concept of being frozen. tricky. you can't unfreeze until you are ready to let go of the concept of being frozen, until it feels safe. but while you're frozen you'll never be ready to let go. so you're stuck.
Deleteproving to yourself that you have worth is a way to get around the deadlock. but it has to be action, something challenging. thinking your way out won't work. thinking has too many bullshit traps.
anyway, more thoughts.. but will be back later.
Monica, what I mean is you appear to have some sort of cognitive glitches or impairment in your thinking processes. It shows itself in the way you interpret ideas and these loops you seem to get stuck in. I have no idea what it is, but it seems to make some of your thinking child-like.
Delete" maybe Ell has something. the only thing i noticed is that you "loop" a lot with your thoughts"
DeleteYeah. Cross-posted with you on that, Zoe.
Can you give me some examples, Ell?
DeleteYes, it is complicated, I guess. What about the people who achieve so much but still feel they are losers. It is a multifaceted concept
Deletei heard a few months back from a colleague that they heard i was the best in my field the company i work for ever had. my work was good, i knew that. so here is my question to you, did my achievement happen when i completed the work or when it was recognized? recognition is nice but worthless on its own.
and anyway, it you care about it, it's just a rug someone can pull out from under you at some point down the road. my guess is the people who achieve a lot but still feel like losers measure the achievement in terms of recognition.
if you could choose between writing the most beautiful piece of music ever written where no one else would hear it, and writing something just nice and becoming famous for it, which would you choose? :)
For me, the work and the recognition would be 2 separate and distinct achievements. I know I'm good at what I do, and I set a standard of my own so I know when I've done a good job. External validation is just extra frosting - nice, but not essential. And as you say, people can withdraw praise or validation for their own reasons, at any time.
DeleteI had this happen once, and it hurt ... not because I felt less competent or less worthy, but because this person withdrew their good opinion for no good without explanation or reason. I knew there was nothing wrong or different about me, so it came down to them playing games to mess with me. If I'd depended on their opinion as much as they assumed, I would have been crushed, as were other people they discarded at the same time.
It is hard to explain, what I want. I want to feel. I am frozen and numb. I don't want approval as I get a lot. I am not saying this to brag, but I get a lot of love. People build me up, all the time, but it doesn't help.
DeleteI have a successful business, which is getting more and more successful, so I am doing my part, in the real world.
I crave anything that will make me experience my feelings, so I can remove this numb, altered of state of consciousness.
If a person is present, in the world, and can feel, he can figure out life, and what to do, as he is getting the accurate signals. If you are numb, you really can't learn from your experience.
Monica, I don't think that's accurate. I don't 'feel' the full range of emotions, and yet I function and learn and experience just fine.
DeleteIf you don't have the full set of tools, you improvise with what you have to hand.
I would like to have a few more tools in my tool box, like maybe a claw hammer and an axe.
DeleteHeh - I like the imagery that conjures up.
DeleteBut so what if you've only got a needle and a paperclip? You just learn to make people jump in more subtle ways :)
V said..
DeleteFor me, the work and the recognition would be 2 separate and distinct achievements. I know I'm good at what I do, and I set a standard of my own so I know when I've done a good job. External validation is just extra frosting - nice, but not essential. And as you say, people can withdraw praise or validation for their own reasons, at any time.
yeah praise is never free. and it can be an indicator that you're getting typecast. it's better to be a generalist, not indispensable but useful and upwardly transferable. :)
Monica, this is an example of what I mean. When we talked about rage and violence I told you I've been violent to others apart from my mother. I asked you if you think I'm an abuser. You said, 'You're my friend'. To my mind the answer would have been, 'You're an abuser, but you're also my friend'. I suppose it's black and white thinking?
DeleteYes, when you asked that question, I had a very clear inner response. We don't have to label, here. We are all, everything. That was kind of the point of the discussion.
DeleteTheme for CEO Sociopathworld
ReplyDeleteThank you, Themes.
DeleteTheme for Frank
ReplyDeleteI always liked Aristotle's saying "No great mind has ever existed without a touch of madness"
ReplyDelete"Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit." - Lucius Annaeus SENECA
DeleteWithdraw into yourself, as far as you can. Associate with those who will make a better man of you. Welcome those whom you yourself can improve. The process is mutual; for men learn while they teach. SENECA
DeleteQuidquid latine dictum, altum videtur
DeleteSo I like this even more ;)
AND you make the other go and wiki the quote ;
DeleteI think the first latin thingy was what green eyes thought Aristotle said, but why correct lol the quote is important anyway, not the author
Deleteextremity did NOT answer the question. why does he treat monica like scum and eden like an angel?
ReplyDeleteIs it seriously so hard for you to figure out, anon? Really?
DeleteExtremity is simply an excellent judge of character
I am an angel. His angel.
DeleteYou are a slave.
DeleteI never realized how much anger I had and I never felt safe enough to express it. It had been pushed down for so long that it was just depression. SW helped me get to this current stage of feeling my anger and beginning to express it. Thank you, Friends ( and those who hate me) That should cover everyone~
ReplyDeletei feel like you have alot of free time on your hands...
DeleteYes, Anon, why don't you give me more to do and then I will be perfect. You better patent your wonderful, new therapy before someone steals it from you and makes millions.
DeleteNobody cared. I was a throw away, like when you throw old things away that don't matter."
ReplyDeleteThank you M.E.
I knew when I saw that, that you would be all over it like flies........................oh well. You are always true to form UKan.
DeleteThe quote has a cadence like Ukan's.
DeleteUKan
DeleteDo you want to hear how you are too smart for you own good?
No matter, I will tell you. I have been studying you for a while. You intrigue me, WHAT can I say?
DeleteThe satisfaction you get from "weakening" people by "bringing them to your knees" as you so drAMAticaLly have put it in the past, are entertaining..
However:
If I may say so myself, your drivel alienates you from people. Yes I'm sure you don't care about most people. (This I share with you as a strange matter of fact, but I digress. I must examine myself more closely to see why. I am sure someone here will provide some insight. Again, I digress. It must be the heat getting to me. Never mind.)
If you would like to make contacts and keep allies or would-be allies, you really must curb your impulse to destroy.
It's considered rude. And blatant arrogance makes people queasy. THIS is how you are too smart for your own good.
There are always people smarter than you, and if you won't reign yourself in, one day you will be flattened.
Beautiful Monica <3
Delete