More on loyalty
A reader asks:
How can you be loyal if you are a sociopath? I ask because I'm reading a lot about sociopaths and recovery from pathological relationships. And reading that being unfaithful is one characteristic.
My response:
Good question. I actually think it is very easy for a sociopath to be loyal. In some ways it's easier for them than it is for an empath to be loyal. To be truly loyal, you have to adopt a certain reality. For instance, to be patriotic you have to be "my country, right or wrong" (to take the popularly misquoted, and I think more accurate version). People loyal to Hitler had to drink the Kool-Aid, had to adopt his reality, his world view, his everything. If they didn't, then when the going got tough, they would betray him. Is that loyalty? I don't think so. But sociopaths can be this loyal if they choose. They have such a flexible sense of self and an ability to compartmentalize that together allow them to adopt your reality or Hitler's reality or really anything they want to believe. Why would we want to do it? I don't know, why not? For me, as I said, I use it when I am trying to maintain an interpersonal relationship.
I'm not saying empaths can't be loyal. There are probably more loyal empaths than sociopaths, even per capita. I'm just saying being a sociopath doesn't preclude the possibility of displaying incredible amounts of loyalty, particularly for the "favorites" that we have chosen. There's pretty much nothing I wouldn't do for some of my loved ones -- literally. I know empaths say that a lot, but I think it's obvious why that might be even more true for a sociopath friend.
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A reader asks:
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletelol at discussing 'loyalty per capita'.
ReplyDeleteIt's easy to be loyal to people who are either influential or a consistent source of pleasure. But when they're used up, I find I'm not loyal at all. So I guess I'm not loyal.
i agree harry lime, the one that i've know could be loyal so long as it was in his best interest and he didn't get bored.
ReplyDeleteLoyalty defined by an empath? As in, never cheats, lies, or steals? No.
ReplyDeleteOft have I been with someone else, when you were with friends/at work/at home, waiting. Having drinks, drinks bought for me, having sex with other's spouses, sometimes both spouses (your doctors, conservative politicians, religious, popular, unknowns) in other cities, bars, at parties, while you were calling on the phone: leaving messages. Coming to your place after fucking someone in their car, at their house/apt., with a smile on my face, happy to see you, to fuck you and kiss you, because, "I love you."
Turning your suspicions against you, using your jealousy and anger as reasons to validate twisting your mind, mostly because I'm bored of you and your painful routine of togetherness.
Stealing your friends, your family, your money, your time, your ideas, and making them mine; with a guise of charming innocence, and subtle, honest helplessness; turning those close to you, for whatever suits my need, using your truth and a little of mine, to loosen those ties.
All of my adventures, whatever selfish want just fuels the facade of charm and makes you (and others) magically desire me more, more servile. A potent colonge (of filth) that you love, but won't admit, because you're weak, stupid, and blind.
Yet, loyalty defined by me: I will never betray the illusion, your illusion. I will stay loyal to it, no matter how brokedown and pathetic.
And, so will you, by betraying your instincts and commitments, for your addiction to me and the games I play.
Mentally stink. Cleansing required.
DeleteWow. You people are disgusting!!! You all should be in jail.
ReplyDeleteUnder what charge ? Being human ?
DeleteMy ex wife did all those thing to me, and she was just a bitch.
So... maybe we should locked everyone on the planet up.
On Loyalty sociopaths are no different from empaths. Both are equally disloyal and you should trust neither. Anyone who trusts an empath or a sociopath without evidence of a history is a fool.
ReplyDeleteVise words here I can read
DeleteAs far as sociopaths being willing to do anything for their loved ones, so are the majority of empaths. Sociopaths aren't the only hunters in the jungle even if they might like to believe it.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that the owner of this blog got right is that there are two main types of humans, those who are controlled by their hearts and those who are controlled by their brains. The humans who follow reason might be capable of compassion but they will not be compassionate when it puts their safety at risk. Because of this they might get perceived as sociopathic when in reality they are just being reasonable.
A sociopath is an individual who is not capable of remorse or empathy at any moment in their life. It's actually a disability rather than a logical decision. There are certain situations where empathy and remorse are in the sociopaths best interest and they just don't have it to give.
Maybe they don't have it to give, but some of 'em can pretend and look better than those who do have it ;)
Delete^But only the ignorant and naive would believe them.
Delete"A sociopath is an individual who is not capable of remorse or empathy at any moment in their life. It's actually a disability rather than a logical decision. There are certain situations where empathy and remorse are in the sociopaths best interest and they just don't have it to give."
ReplyDeleteAnd, that's when they fake it, right? Fake empathy and remorse, in order to disarm? I mean, it's not like they're just walking around blind and "bumping into walls"....
I mean, it's not like they're just walking around blind and "bumping into walls"....
DeleteIf an individual has done research on narcissists and sociopaths they are able to see them "bumping into walls".....
Ironically sociopaths i believe gather people who feel emotions for them. People unknowingly are loyal to a socio until they get burnt by them. Socios will act like they are your best friend and the only one who gets u... But its the lie they tell to gain your devotion. They will involve you in on crimes on humanity.. They abuse others and people who are weak or deficient will play their game. I have seen people choose the bad evil friend over the nice one to learn.... Many people like to abuse and be abused. It is only truly evolved people who can engage in honest relationships with others. The price you pay for abusing others is that u become like the devil u protect and they are pleased at how many people will mirror them. U leave yourself behind when u get close to a socio.. U have too to get in that inner circle of theirs that abuses others for sport.
DeleteInteresting! It's John Douglas, the author. I have Anatomy of Motive around here, somewhere.
ReplyDeleteNow, I'd like to see John Douglas give the criminal breakdown for UKan. That would be fascinating.
Daft,
ReplyDeleteAre you changing teams - going "narcissitic" on sociopathworld?
How's the gambling?
Any youtube videos worth sharing?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi this is lucyx. Someone imitated me on the previous post, all that stuff about hooking and working in a shop. I didn't mind at all and it gave me a laugh too. But I did think there was a silent sporting agreement we won't imitate eachother, because if we start doing that it'll become too chaotic. So Harry Lime if it was you, it was funny and harmless (and very childish) but you are naughty and shouldn't do it any more!
ReplyDeleteI just read ME's comments about loyalty and, bless his heart, but I don't think he understands the inner meaning of loyalty very well. You can adopt any reality in which you are loyal, but the problem is that loyalty is not a theoretical thing, it only exists when it is needed, and it is only needed when there is a lot of stress on 'reality'. The thing about adopted realities is they are very flimsy. OK when the sun is shining but not so reliable when the rain is pouring.
ReplyDeleteLoyalty isn't needed when the sun is shining ME. I think you see loyalty as something 'theoretical' that you convince the other person of. I think this is another case of a really central sociopath trait and belief: that not being caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth
luv lucyx
Harry Lime said "It's easy to be loyal to people who are either influential or a consistent source of pleasure. But when they're used up, I find I'm not loyal at all. So I guess I'm not loyal."
ReplyDeleteBravo Harry Lime for plain speaking. I value you because I get it that you would not get anything out of being here to dress things up, or make yourself look better to empaths. What purpose would it serve you, since there is no way to get into anyone's pants from here? Not all sociopaths are like that though, but you are. The value for you is speaking things as they are to you, in a way you can't do everywhere else in your life. That makes you interesting to other people because truth is always interesting and fantasies and lies rarely so.
ME does try to show things in a positive light but he's still interesting because I think I understand he has some 'political' motivations. He wants equality for sociopaths in the same way gays won it. I don't think what he wants is at all achievable since the only people who know sociopaths are scientists who hate them, their victims who hate them, and their children and spouses who hate them (lol).
luv lucyx
I would love to see some proof to support this nutjob theory that sociopaths are (individually) hated by everyone they know. It seems widely assumed that they all lead this lonely outcast existence, hated by anyone who has ever known them. Is this the norm for a socio? I find that if you give half a damn about blending in and learn people's hard limits without pushing past them, they are all too happy to view you as a normal functioning member of society.
DeleteLucy said...
ReplyDelete"I think this is another case of a really central sociopath trait and belief: that not being caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth"
Lucy, unless you're speaking in absolutes such as, "He grabbed the money," what's the difference between honesty and a lie? Isn't it the perspective of the viewer? For example, one person might see so-and-so take the money, and honestly declare, "He stole the money, that bastard," while another might honestly say, "He took the money to put it in the safe."
What's the difference? One of them would undoubtedly be wrong. Does that make one of them a liar? Or both of them liars for speaking when they don't really know with 100% certainty what happened?
What's the difference between the sociopath saying, "He stole your money, Lucy," and an empath saying the same thing? Is it that the sociopath knows he doesn't know, and so chooses which version of the story he wants to adopt and present to you?
What if the sociopath believes it? Does it matter if he intentionally adopted that view, because he doesn't have a strong sense of self to force him to view things a certain way?
These aren't rhetorical questions. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
i like the points made by both john douglas and peter pan, because ultimately, others should have to earn your trust to begin with and it does depend on who's making the "loyalty" call.
ReplyDeleteDaft,
ReplyDeleteThat was a great link. I liked this one, too... by the same actor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o92psSmcmHo
loyalty is confused with entitlement when a sociopath.
ReplyDeletethey expect it, they dont aspire to being worthy of it.
and when they have it from you, you are in serious serious trouble.
exactly @ anonymous above.
ReplyDeletesociopaths are not loyal. they simply go through phases of obsession where they nearly worship someone. they get quickly bored and it's always about what's in it for them. loyalty at times requires self-sacrifice. sociopaths don't understand self-sacrifice, because their quest is always self-serving.
they demand loyalty, but seldom give it.
Dan Messe
ReplyDeleteDon't ever trust a sociopath. They'll put you above everything else as a friend, but they'll never put you above themselves. Some empaths will put you above themselves.
ReplyDeleteVery true!
DeletePs- you were "First!"
Bullshit man, who told you that you need to put others above yourself to be loyal? No sane person would do that, unless of course we are talking about parents sacrificing themselves to save their children or people that are influenced by a flow of strong chemical reactions a.k.a. in love or under influence. Not trusting someone who treats you as a friend is also lame.
DeleteGood morning Sociopathworld!!!!
ReplyDelete:) Happy Friday everybody!!!!
Hey Sw. Here is a REALLY interesting article I founf about somebody who they call the "No fear woman". She feels no fear because she was born with NO amygdala in her brain.....
ReplyDeleteHere is a fascinating excerpt from the article:
"Once, while SM was walking through an urban park at night, a man yelled at her to come over to the bench where he was sitting. Instead of bolting or freezing with fear, as most people would, SM walked over to him. When he then pulled out a knife and held it to her throat, she remained calm.
"She didn't freak out like anyone else would with a knife held to her throat by a drugged-out man," said Justin Feinstein, a clinical neuropsychologist at The University of Iowa in Iowa City.
"In the background, there was a nearby church choir finishing up practice," he continued. "She looks at the man and ever so gently says, 'If you're going to kill me, you're gonna have to go through my God's angels first.' This freaks the man out and he lets her go. The next day, she goes back on her walk through the park."
Heres the link to the article
http://news.discovery.com/human/fear-fearless-brain-emotion.html
interesting article, thanks Rich
Delete:) No problem Zoe, I like finding interesting and relevant articles to SW such as the fearlessness aspect. It is interesting that she still feels all other emotions, just not the fear.
DeleteGood Morning Rich and SW!!
ReplyDeleteI must have an amydgala on a permanent acid trip~
LOL! Hey Monica! I definatly possess an Amygdala too, even in non frightening situations caused by my panic disorder.
DeleteInstant Replay Friday
ReplyDeleteClassic, Original Theme for UKan
DeleteTheme for Mindless Pleasures taking care of his Sugar Mama
DeleteLoyalty isn't some amazing virtue, it's an investment.
ReplyDeleteWhere your treasure is, there will your heart be also-
ReplyDeleteSometimes you just feel the need to destroy.
ReplyDeletei can force myself to be loyal
ReplyDeletebut i can't expect annything back in return
it's like keeping my hand on a burning candle
a test of will
By no means that's a good reason.
Deletesleeping dogs
ReplyDeletei'm waiting for the sleeping people version..
Loyalty cannot be tested. Such tests are detestable and the insecurity that provokes them deserves to be met with spite and infidelity. A test of loyalty is no less of a betrayal than whatever acts of malice come in response.
ReplyDeleteLol... Goodluck with life...
DeleteLeave my life alone with your luck you fuck.
DeleteLol. You'll need more than luck anyhow. At least you'll serve as a lesson to the wise.
DeleteMy life aside, what the hell brings you to SW? If you are so wise, then why do you frequent a blog to learn about this stuff? Some people go their whole lives without even a slight inquisition into the true lives of us ones you people label sociopathic, unlucky, and now unwise. Something must have brought you here.
DeleteForget labels. You're a living lesson, shut up and keep failing lol.z...
DeleteWhat brought you to SW?
DeleteYou did.
DeleteCool. I last posted here on August 9th, three moths ago, so go ahead and read the rest of my comments. Anonymous, you should adopt a handle.
DeleteLol. Okay...
DeleteIf you say so...
So, what is your handle?
DeleteIt's YourMom.
DeleteOkay I will be on the lookout for YourMom.
DeleteEnd.
DeleteEnd what?
DeleteBeing really loyal to a select few people is more beneficial in the long run than taking advantage of everyone. Especially the people who know what you are and are ok with it.
ReplyDeleteVery few people will 'figure out who you are' most sheeple in society still think a psychopath is something only in the movies. The population is stupid, which is why most paths are successful.
DeleteYeah haha. According to the stats (1-4%), they're really common but people don't realize.
DeleteBecause psychopaths are people too.
DeleteRolling myself a HUGE doobie. I might just inhale the entire thing without even breathing..
ReplyDeleteThe Forum has it's continuing story. Are we, the comments section, going to be shown up? I don't think so. On to "Up From the Sofa"
ReplyDeleteRichie had taken enough support from his mom and step-dad. Yes, they loved him, but enough was enough. Rich was a man and an able bodied man.
Rich was a very able bodied man, if you know what I mean~
When Rich walked down the street, he caught the ladies eyes. More than that, he knew how to make a lady feel special. He had a way with words.
They say the way to a man's passion is through his eyes. The way to a woman's is her ears. Richie had a silver tongue and the ladies flocked to him.
However, at this time, Rich's mind was not on drugs or ladies, it was on a job.
Stay tuned for the next segment when Rich gets a job interview at a very special lady's business.
Rich is evolving, huh? Rich has stopped evolving. Rich remains pedobear
DeleteNICE!!!! I love it!!!!! I have started SAVING THESE by the way, one day it will be a great long book of experiences!!!!!
DeletePS- My mind IS actually on a job, its just my system isint clean, YET. It only has to be clean from weed, I tested myself last saturday and it was day 35 and I STILL had THC in my system :( but iam gonna try again this weekend! Ill keep you all updated!
THANK YOU for another GREAT installment!
Rich was roaming the streets of his native Boca Raton when he saw a help wanted sign in front of an elegant building.
ReplyDeleteHe walked in to a receptionists office replete with chandeliers, marble floors sprinkled with oriental rugs and peppered with white and black leather sofas.
Hot diggity dog, thought Rich. I could get used to this.
The receptionist was a gorgeous woman who had an air of goth about her but not enough to clash with the sumptuous surroundings.
On her desk was a name tag---Medusa.
:) OMG! I love this writing!!!! This is great!!!! Also, I do like goth chicks, something about the sexy ones just catches my eye!
Delete:) Thank you again, this was a GREAT friday suprize!
Medusa had not had a man for awhile. She was fussy. She had high standards. However, when she saw Rich, she saw "fine" with a capital F.
ReplyDelete*To be continued*
Behind Medusa was a lovely band of ladies of all shapes, colors, sizes and flavors. Say hello to Zoe, Haven, Eden, Elicit, Ali and Monica.
ReplyDeleteWhat were all these beautiful ladies doing in this lavish and elegant establishment?
*You will have to wait for the next installment to find out"
OMG :) O think I know what kind of a business this is..... AND I LIKE IT!
DeleteThis is gonna bring some GREAT material into the saga ;)
Please leave me out of your erotic tales.
DeleteThank you.
Rich eyed the merchandise. I mean ladies.
ReplyDeleteEach had her own beauty. Who would Rich choose, if he had the chance?
He was awakened from his reveries by Medusa's terse voice. "Sir, I have asked you TEN times, what is your name?"
My name is Rich M, madam. I need a job. I can do whatever you need.
"Really," said Medusa with a glint in her eye.
"Anything?"
*To be continued*
Theme Series
ReplyDeleteTheme Song for "Up From The Sofa" Series
DeleteThere's no way to know what one is thinking, what are his/her motives, so all these "sociopaths can't be loyal" statements are very childish. First of all, loyalty comes from bonding which comes from instinctive fear of being alone and failing to find a suitable mate. Secondly, all emotions are self-centered - your brain creates your responses to things, you can admire, love, hate something but it will always be your emotions"These tornado victims are so poor, I PITY THEM". How's that not selfish? In addition, many people are forced to be loyal for their authorities and so on, they don't want but they have to. Therefore loyalty is an act which requires not much emotional attachment. Psychopaths may not be able to bond in a way other people do, but it doesn't mean that they can't be loyal for some period of time. If you can give what s/he wants to get from you, your sociopath will be loyal to you, easy breeze.
ReplyDeleteKeep telling yourself that....
DeleteAnon 3:38 that's a True Story. You obviously can't comprehend.
DeleteHey, you're free to make your own
Deletemistakes...
I won't stop you.
^ not sure if internet troll or retarded.
DeleteWhat the hell. I thought that was Mee replying, gtfo Lunar.
DeleteWhat I'm trying to say, is that some people like to keep minions around... don't be one. I don't know why it happens, probably cause they're evil wizards and like to control others.
Okay, but why?
DeleteEvil Wizards... ah like Lions and Tigers and Bears O My! Never fear Anon 12:24 I'm my own person. ;-)
Delete
ReplyDelete"What do you lovely ladies do?" asked Rich, voice trembling a bit.
He rued the day he gave up pot, as he could use a toke.
Medusa hesitated, looked down and began to speak.
*To be continued*
"Rich, can you be relied upon to keep absolute secrecy about what you see going on here?
DeleteWe need someone to help with our business, but we need absolute trust in that person.
We would not take lightly to a breach in confidence. Do you understand, Rich?" said Medusa.
Medusa looked scrumptious, as did all of the ladies.
What the heck was going on here?
"Rich, what do you think we do here? said Medusa.
Delete"You look as if you are lost in some reverie. You look as if you entered the Twilight Zone. We are a group of high level professional woman," Medusa said with a smile.
Rich seemed to gather his senses. He could be relied upon for total confidentiality. He was clean of all drugs and just wanted a new start.
He wanted to be their company man, whatever that entailed.
He wanted a chance to prove that he was more than a freeloader living in his mother's house.
He was ready for the challenge.
What, in God's name, was this business, anyway?
:) OMG I LOVE IT!!!!!!!! I have saved EVERY part of this today!!!!!
DeleteIt just gets BETTER AND BETTER!!!!
This is REALLY GREAT WRITING by the way.....
PS- Iam DEFINATLY ready for the challenge ;)
:) I couldnt be more happy with where you have taken this!
DeleteYou really are BRILLIANT!
You should be a writer, off of SW, if you arent already :)
We will dispense with Eden, per request. Thank you, Rich, for your graciousness.
DeleteTo be continued, tomorrow. Get a good night sleep. You are in for adventure, Richie Boy ~
*holding lighters in the dark of the night*
DeleteUp from the Sofa! Up from the sofa! Up from the sofa!
This comment makes me wonder, in what way is a Sociopath's flexible sense of self similar to a parasitic organism's capacity to take on the personality of it's host? And in what way is a Sociopath's capacity for compartmentalization similar to a parasitic organism's capacity to share the mind of it's host? And if a Sociopath were a predator and Human Beings Pray, then is that something that would occur, or was it something else? And how do these qualities affect the capacity for loyalty? Thank you for your valuable time and energy, and thanks again for your blog. You Beings are doing God's work :)
ReplyDeleteA parasitic organism does not emulate the personality of its host. A parasite can change characteristics of its host. The parasite is a pathogen, and the parasitic pathogen would certainly affect the functioning of its host adversely by definition.
DeleteAgain, parasites do not need to share the mind of their hosts.
Compartmentalization is a term people use to describe how empathy is present sometimes but not present other times. Empathy is not a parasitic utility, it is an ability developed through biology (pre-frontal cortex & mirror neurons), maturity, and experience. It would help to think of compartmentalization as what happens after prowling using empathy until BAM the empathy is shut off because the window is open to achieve whatever goal is of greater importance to the predator.
If the human being prey has received all the positive/empathetic stimuli from the (nonhuman?/predator), then the prey is not expecting to be exploited in whatever manner the predator makes the human prey. Positively contrived or contrary, the (nonhuman?) predator you label sociopath could possibly share the mind of the host in the sense that the predator can share in the thoughts and feelings of the prey (using empathy) until the thought comes to predator that prey presents a viable opportunity: BAM! Off with the empathy, with reckless abandon, the predator gets what she wants. Loyalty prey observes thereafter may be marred..
Is it because you believe in a deity you also believe sociopaths are not human?
What are some of the ways loyalty is expressed/shown to persons on your friend or favourite list.
ReplyDeleteI express my loyalty to my select group of favorites simply by not using them in a manner that would be unduly hurtful to them
Deletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x7Ta89QLo4
ReplyDeleteFor me loyalty is to stay. More accurately to always back someone. this does not mean to always agree, or even always be on the same side, just that they matter to you. that their life means something to you. That their important. how your actions reflect this depend entirely on the person.
ReplyDeleteI am an 18 year old female. I have been reading alot about sociopathy due to the fact that I was diagnosed with ADHD, and also Oppositional Defiancy Disorder when I was 14. My parents have been through hell with me because I acted out, and I never have and I never will change who I am, and I don't fear anything. I have smoked weed since I was 14, cigarettes as well, and I have stole money from family members without feeling the slightest amount of regret. I skipped 9 classes and was close to being put into night school in my Freshman year in highschool so my parents decided to let me try Cyber school. I liked the self paced classes where I could teach myself and I just had to do assignments at my own pace. I wouldn't do any school work for usually the first month in the semester and then I would finish every assignment within 2 days lol the teachers didnt like it but they couldnt say shit. I got hired full time with no experience at a Corporate trillion-dollar company and I got the job over applicants with years of experience. I know alot about deception detection, body language, handwriting analysis, etc., and I also got a 97% on Paul Ekmans microexpression advanced test, I got expert level certification and the test was supposed to take 85 minutes, I completed it in literally less than 15 minutes. I do love my dogs, and my boyfriend, and my family and I am fiercely loyal to my boyfriend (alcoholic woth a bad temper). Recently a dog tried attacking my dog, Sophia, chihuahua min pin mix, it was about 85 lbs. I am 115 lbs, and 5'2. When I saw it coming I kicked it in the face twice, it came back for more so I kicked it hard as fuck and told the owner "get the fucking thing on a leash" and if I would have been.able to kill it and get away with it bet your ass I would have. Theres alot to write but would I be considered sociopathic? Im not scared of the police either, i have BAD road rage, and have even visioned pulling people out of their car and beating geir fucking
ReplyDeleteno.
Delete