But there are a lot of reasons to have some sort of standard why you conduct yourself. Here's what a recent commenter had to say about the utility of having such a standard :
You said, "The only code that’s worth having or that I respect is becoming the best in whatever you decided to do."
When you can't feel empathy for other people it makes it easy to manipulate and hurt them for whatever reason you see fit. I was taught my code by my grandfather, at an early age after many years of violent and manipulative behaviors. I knew the differences between right and wrong, I just didn't care because I never felt them. He taught me to use those abilities to protect the people who are close to me and that being able to do those things for my own immediate selfish reasons was the lazy way to react, and in the long run would not allow me to do what I wanted to do in the first place.
It took several years before I understood what he meant. Not until after a few issues with the court system. It made me completely powerless; I could no longer do what I wanted. Afterward when I returned to school a friend of mine got into a fight. He had done something to provoke it and felt so bad about it that he couldn't defend himself, he just took the beating. A few days later they crossed paths in the hallway and my friend got sucker punched and didn't defend himself again, he couldn't he still felt bad. I stepped in for him and after slamming the guys head between and open locker and its door several times was promptly sent back to my 10x10.
The judge was impressed that I had thought about somebody else for a change instead of only myself and gave me no time. What he didn’t know was that I really was only thinking about myself he only saw the ‘good’ that I had done. In his eyes, I stood up to a bully for a friend who couldn’t defend himself. Personally I didn’t see it that way, he pissed ME off, disrespected MY friend and was going to take whatever punishment I gave him as a consequence.
When I returned to school again, I had a different mindset, a code to base my behaviors on if you will. I still live my life based on that code to this day. I learned that appearing to be in the service of others who feel they cannot defend or stand up for themselves brings more long term opportunities for me. Who wants to sit in jail, where is the fun in that?
Sounds like my kind of friend...
ReplyDeleteThis ^
ReplyDelete"...he pissed ME off, disrespected MY friend and was going to take whatever punishment I gave him as a consequence." Exactly what goes through my head, that I try not to act from. Sad, but it's about what my morals are. QM
this is very interesting to me.
DeleteI step in to protect MINE too. I do not like it when people fuck with my people. There is just sthg abt a bully. I will squash them good. (They do not bother me for some reason. I do not allow. I am not target. However, I did get taken out on the lawn and had the shit kicked out of me in 2nd grade by a bully.)
I did not think this was code. I thought this is instinct. I thought this is just primal.
One of my friends told me I am like a bear with cubs. I did not see myself like she did. But she was right. Really, if I see an asshole fucking with mine, making them feel less, or manipulating with put downs, I will go to town on them. I will be fierce on them. I will put out flame for them, I will disarm the asshole too much and they will forfeit. They walk away from me and my friend and do not try again. Not in front of me anyway. I will bite head off and spit it back in their face .
I do not know where it comes from exactly. But I used to make my older sister's a-hole boyfriends really mad. Omg she went out with the biggest advantage-takers. They hated me and I always laughed in their face. Like a hyena, yes. She could not see it.. I was very young.
This is primal.
QM, you do not feel primal instinct? Why do you say it is morals for you?
DeleteIs this narcissistic?
DeletePrimal is good! Go, you!
Delete@ Don't fuck with me Yeah, instinct is what I feel. Any altruism on my part is basically all about me and trying to protect / avenge what's mine, like OP said.
DeleteThis isn't the bronze age, it's the 21st century, and we're supposed to be beyond an eye for an eye. Now, I think I'm more effective at what I care about, but I have the impression that in lacking morals per se I'm missing some higher thing that's supposed to make people more human. And the idea of missing something or worse other people being aware of it, which they apparently are, is what bothers me.
I don't think what you're talking about sounds narcissistic. It sounds like benign protectiveness and not inappropriate at all. I think those sound like good instincts. QM
THank you, QM. A while back there was discussion on the topic and I was thinking I was narcissistic. - I get so much feeling like a viper, I almost thought it was all about me. I am glad to hear that you do not think so. I was not sure.
DeleteWould any of you a holes like to dispute ???
Because no one has told me that I was a narcissist except for some people here *clears throat* who like to insist all people are narcissists.
Let me make this perfectly clear to anyone planning to come here to the land of the arm chair diagnosticians. People will fuck with you and make you think you are something when you are not. Like that asshole, Thomas Sheridan, who should be taken into a house full of borderlines so he could be properly tortured by a different breed.
QM, when you say morals, if you don't mind me asking, what in particular comes to mind?
I can totally relate.
DeleteI have a small group that I call My People. Nobody touches My People. Anyone who insults them insults ME and will get everything they deserve.
Recently (just last week in fact) I got even with a random shop employee who was rude to my mother and to me. I lodged formal complaints with the company management, the mall management, the national consumers' association. Dredged up customer reviews on the net accusing this company of poor service and scamming them of hundreds of dollars, then forwarded them to everyone I contacted on this matter. Also threatened legal action.
In days I received three formal apologies (from the mall, the company, and the POS employee) and a refund (virtually unheard of - even the consultant from the consumer association told me this wouldn't happen).
Why all this? My official excuse was that I wouldn't take any insult against my family lying down. This made me out to be someone caring and protective - it was fun basking in other people's admiration for a character that does not actually exist.
The truth, as I am sure we all know, is that I was fighting back for myself. Plus, it's fun to make life miserable for the deserving.
Over the top and excessively vengeful? Yes. Why not?
Whilst nobody is allowed to insult or hurt my people, I give myself free rein to do so. I know it's hypocritical but once they've done something that irritates me, they lose whatever value they had and are easily dumped. Gotta keep the group exclusive. ;)
Delete
DeleteI never thought about keeping a group exclusive. I just dont want them touching my shit.
I thought when you fight for yourself through another person, that is the narcissistic route.
DeleteWhy should you waste your time making a code for yourself? Just live... Having a code is so predictable and boring
ReplyDeleteThe problem with just living is that for many people it leads to life in a 6x8 box with three hots and a cot. It is especially important for someone with no empathy to have a strict code of conduct. Actions and scenarios that are off limits for any reason without first weighing necessity and consequences.
DeleteI don't have empathy, and I don't have a strict code of conduct. It's all common sense. I don't do things if I don't want to face the consequences. Simple.
DeleteM.Brig- I have empathy, but basically, I live the same way as you........
DeleteYes, well, that nasty little issue called impulsiveness can undo whatever code and common sense you usually have.
DeleteShe can always ellicit the truth :)
DeleteDAMN YOU, Ellicit!
Deletetoday at work
ReplyDeleteboss was giving me hell but he didn't know what was going on (kinda made him look like a dumb ass)
i just smiled and let him be mad at me
some guy i work with told my boss what really was going on
so my boss asked me why i didn't tell him what really was going on
i told him if you think of me a someone who does a good job you will ask me to do more if you would think of me like someone who does a bad job you'll ask someone els
and i don't mind you shouting at me
you make a better enemy than an ally
no good deed goes unpunished
Deletethey say sociopaths don't learn
Deletei beg to differ
@757
DeleteMe too. I see their bottom line, and I respect their decision. If they are a good businessperson, it's rarely personal.
it's not personal for me
Deleteit's just a way to make the system work for me
This whole code issue made me realize that empaths really need a code as well, otherwise it's really easy to be 'had.' I wonder if the Lovefraud ladies have developed any codes eventually. I'd start with 'if something looks too good at the beginning it's not because you are so great.'
ReplyDeleteYep. I think a lot of it is inexperience. They haven't been out there enough?
DeleteI think with a lot of empaths, empathy IS THEIR CODE....... Along with common sense, kindness, and "living and let live".
DeleteHi Rich
Deleteempaths, like the normal people? or empaths like you -uber.
why do you think they think they thought they were great if they made that mistake. They felt special? It's easy to make a mistake with a sociopath or a narcissist. I have plenty of friends who didn't think they were a prize. They were just had. Yeah, they learn.
ReplyDeletewtf is with this dis on the empaths here?
^that's for 7:59
DeleteThis is kind of related. I think about people who got power without having to earn it, like Princess Di. All of a sudden, she was the most sought after woman in the world. She did not have the mental and emotional strength/health to figure out how to navigate her world. Hence, she messed it up with that Susan Forward interview and it went downhill from there.
ReplyDeleteI think you have to struggle for every ounce of maturity that you get, but once you get it, it is a tool that you have in your arsenal. Even being able to ignore people who are harassing you is a tool. This one took me 3 years to get. This is not so much a code, as learning how to navigate the world, so you have some sort of mastery of your place in it.
I think the "sociopath code" is simply synonymous with a personal code of behavior to help that particular person navigate their life.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't some kind of crazy ethical/moral/whatever substitute. It's just what that person has developed to help them get by.
Here on the internets people like to take a small concept, blow it out of proportion, and run with their singular opinion. Possibly fueling it with gnomes. sociopath gnomes.
my code is
Deleterun from the cops
Hey whatever works for you.
Deletenot going to jail
Deleteis getting a head for me
(knew that sinds i was 13ish)
would borderline bennefit from such a code
Deleteand would it be hard not to break for you haven?
We like to call developing that code, "Going to therapy". At least I do haha. It definitely helps to figure these sort of things out, but it's more about learning to handle life in an adaptive, non-dysfunctional way, not so much just trying to do enough to get by in society without getting caught.
DeleteIt can definitely be difficult at times to maintain the necessary resolve to do what you know is right for you though. I'm struggling with that currently actually. It takes practice.
I don't know, Haven. I mean you don't have to call it a code, but I think when someone is genuinely struggling with something it really can come down to basically following a limited list of rules.
DeleteIn dealing with my own tendencies, I first had to work to not hurt people (peers) and not kill animals. Then I had to work not to hurt animals. So my most basic rules are not doing those things, but I still have problems with hostility and still have to work not to hurt others emotionally.
I have an idea that I would like my life to be a net positive. I want the world not to be worse for my having lived. Yeah, that sounds improbable after what I've told you and I am kind of running at a deficit, so I have a game of helping people. This help can be keeping watch over people who are suicidal, helping addicts get sober, taking care of people with cancer - basically big situations that are obvious even to me and that are already so bad that my inability to empathize is a non-issue. I know life doesn't run on a point system, and this may not be what anyone else thinks is a code, but it's my strategy. QM
QM I definitely agree with you. For me with my BPD, I've needed therapy to help me recognize when some of my behaviors were inappropriate b/c we can't always recognize them. They're not always quite so clear cut as harming/killing animals, yanno? But once I did figure those things out, it became easier for me to keep in mind which things were and were not acceptable and to keep those things in mind and develop that sort of personal code.
DeleteFor you it definitely sounds like something that is helpful for you. It's a personal code that helps you navigate your world. If it works for you, it works for you, and that's all that matters.
Everyone makes mistakes in their past. Nothing can change the past, but choosing to do differently, better, in the future is definitely something. It's great really. If you want to change, you definitely can. I was an absolute terror growing up. I destroyed all the doors and some windows in my house with my bare fists and feet when my rage got too impulsive. I learned to control that and make better decisions. My past is there as a reminder, but I feel like I definitely have become a better person and I don't see why it should sound improbable for you at all.
I actually have a weird sort of tally system in my mind too, so I completely get it. Keep doing what you're doing. Sounds like you have a good hold on your situation.
Knowing what's appropriate trips me up, for sure. When I know, I try to comply. I've tried therapy, but it doesn't really work. Shrinks end up asking me how I feel about things and that's just a dead end. Plus I think you need to have some kind of attachment to them and some regard for what they think. They're always empaths and I'm always aware that they aren't like me. I also can't get past knowing that the only reason we're speaking is because I'm paying them.
DeleteThanks for the kind words; I actually don't really feel bad or guilty. It's just not who I want to be. I guess this is my response to the reactions last week to the Tell Me Doctor post. If people actually care about violence and want there to be less, they need to be willing to talk about it without condemnation. Otherwise the people who try to change will be less likely to succeed. QM
They're always empaths and I'm always aware that they aren't like me
DeleteYou haven't seen enough shrinks then. lol
Maybe not, then ^^
DeleteI hope you don't mind my asking, but how's therapy going? IDK your diagnosis but I saw where you were kind of journaling in the forum last week and I kind of identified with what you were talking about. I wondered if you thought it might be working or could work. QM
The therapist has indicated that it will be a long, slow process. So it is going according to plan, I guess. It's dull. She gives me homework. I pay for this, can you believe it? If I didn't think it could work I wouldn't be doing it. I will say it has taken a long and circuitous road to reach this point though.
DeleteI'm curious now. What was it that I said that you identified with?
"I pay for this, can you believe it?" Ha, I know, right?
DeleteI can't find your post now, but my impression was that you were unintentionally doing, I don't know, unusual, maybe antisocial things around your kids? I try even harder around kids then adults, to be a safe person for them, but I inadvertently do things that even children recognize are unusual. I can't seem to control it. I think that's what you were saying.
(BTW I'm actually the favorite aunt in my family, which I find alarming. I guess because I pay no attention to rules and that's fun for them? Either that or they can sense that I would hurt anyone who hurts them. I'm pretty much their pet.)
And also the way you avoided that engagement, that basically sounds like me.
Is there a name for the kind of therapy you're doing? QM
I think you are confusing me with someone else. I've barely posted in the forum over the last couple of weeks, and I have no kids. The therapist I'm seeing uses CBT.
DeleteYou avoid engagement, yet you're devoted to your nieces/nephews? How does that work. And what is this engagement that you thought I was avoiding and how do you relate to it?
Sorry for the mix up. I just found the post and you're right, I had you confused with Alter. She was talking about avoiding a social engagement and then about her relationship with her family. She said a lot of things I understand and what works for her might work for me, except she's not going to therapy, you are.
DeleteDevoted is a good word for it. I always think it's strange because only a few people have ever mattered to me, but those kids mean more than about anyone or anything. I try to be a good person for them to be around.
Most PD's, except BPD, are hard to treat, but CBT is pretty common. (I'm assuming you have a PD, too.) Is it just your shrink's specialty or rather how did you find someone? QM
sociopathic code is BS
ReplyDeletewe must all find our way in the world
and sometimes it goes a little south
and sometimes it goes well
that's true for everyone
if annyone has such a code
Deletehow much do you brake it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j805tMYl0kM
ReplyDeletefor haven strait from belgium
=)
DeleteI am standing at the bottom of a black vortex. I am making the sun come out, from the sheer force of my being. I am part of the magic of shape shifting or state change.It is like jello, when it goes from liquid to gel. Sometimes, it doesn't work, like when my grandmother and I made fudge. It wouldn't harden, even when we put it outside, in the cold. It stayed runny, for some inexplicable reason. That aside, if I am going to be jello, I will be multi-colored. Who would go through all this trouble to be hospital red?
ReplyDeletehave a xanex and a whisky clear that depression right up
DeleteMmmmmmmmm
Deletexanax
keep going, Sofa. QM
DeleteI have Xanax :)
DeleteIn fact I just saw my doctor yesterday and he wrote me Xanax (Alprazolam) and Restoril (Temazepam) :) YUMMY!!!!!
This morning I popped #6 Temazepam's and one xanax with my dose of 110mg's of methadone and waited about 30 mins than drank a beer and I was FADED!!!!!!!!! It felt super relaxing though!!!!
:) I LOVE mornings like that!!!!!!!
Yeah, I bet you were faded!
DeleteAre you having any withdrawals or sickness, or does the medicine prevent that? QM
No I dont get withdrawals from opiates because I take methadone......... I dont get withdrawals from Benzodiazepines like my Xanax and Temazepam when I have them, but if I run out for about 3-4 days iot isint pretty, its pretty much as strong as an opiate withdrawal for me PLUS I have had a seizure from not having it for 3 days before......... But now I stock up SO I NEVER MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN......
DeleteI used to be prescribed 90 of the 2mg xanax a day which was 3 a day right? But my methadone clinic and methadone doctor (he is a different doctor than the one who writes me for temazepam and xanax) changed the rules at my clinic and made EVERYBODY who was prescribed xanax go down to 2 mg's per day, which is 1 pill a day..........
But since I used to get #90 I would sometimes take less than 3 a day so I built up a stash and I have like #65 2mg xanax and #6 10mg valium and #2 5mg valium that I dont touch at all.........
THe only pills I touch now are the ones Iget every 4 weeks (28 days) which now I get #30 2mg xanax and #30 30mg Temazepam.
But I dont take the temazepam everday. and some days I only take half of a xanax so at the end of the month whatever I have left over I add to my "emergency stash" that I dont touch......... Do you understand?
Like this month when I went to the sdoctor I had twelve temazepam left and 5 xanax left from the previous prescription, so I took 6 temazepam to pop and 2 xanax to pop and I threw the rest in my stash because they were leftovers.........
ALSO, the other good thing about it is my doctor who writes me them had me come in every 4 weeks which is 28 days, but he writes me 30 days worth of medication so I always have 2 days of extra meds besides what pills I havent taken during the month ;)
"I used to be prescribed 90 of the 2mg xanax a day which was 3 a day right?"
DeleteLOL I meant I used to get 90 2mg xanax per MONTH (not day lol) which was 3 a day.
I'm glad you're not getting sick. You're the first person I've talked to who's taken methadone, so I'm learning everything about it from you. I do know cutting back on the benzos will suck, especially when you're trying to get clean off opiates. I hope they taper you really slowly. (Also, congrats on getting three to take home!) QM
DeleteMore of your powerful imagery, Sofa.
DeleteTune for you
Rich, you are such a pill feind. I just got me some Ritalin so I'm on your wavelength today. :D
Deletehey Rich :-)
DeleteMy code is simple, always do whats right(for me).
ReplyDeleteNew Theme Series
ReplyDeleteTheme for QM
DeleteThank you, Themes : )
DeleteQM
Hello Everybody!!!!!
ReplyDeleteTo MyMind sorry I thought you had a girlfriend......When you used the word "relationship" yesterday I just ASSUMED you meant a romantic relationship...
Either way Iam glad you are starting to feel some new feeling you havent experienced before, good for you :)
@Rich
DeleteNo problem.
actually you're kinda right, its romantic. :)
Yeah, I would agree <3
DeleteI became frozen in the face of seeing what a jerk people were ... I learned to have no trust in my own reactions.
ReplyDeleteI'm a few days behind on the blog, Monica. I do see what you mean by this. Absolutely. That's the way of the malignant narcissist parent, right? My mother is the same, but where you froze I went into attack mode. I guess it's just the two extremes of that incredulous response to their bullshit.
Ellicit
ReplyDeleteYou are very dear. I just wanted to tell you that. Yes, I went the opposite route. Which is worse, do you think?
I really don't know, Monica. From my perspective, of course, I think my way is better. I think it's better to fight back and not give in. I can see there is a survival strategy in the freeze and submit response too though.
DeleteDid you both have a father living there at the time? I also had a narcissist mother.
DeleteMonica, my mother did not notice me fighting back. she wouldn't have understood it had she noticed. so what would have been the use? I had no other choice but to freeze.
DeleteEllicit, You fought and didn't give in, but did you change a dynamic within your relationship to them? I mean did you manage to get through to them?
I am not trying to answer for Ellicit, but I don't think anything gets through to the parent. It is just about which defense mechanism you chose. I, consciously, chose mine, I think. I had love from my grandmother, so could not hurt others, due to that love, I think. I chose to shut down. It was semi conscious. I put my rage into my body, at some point and could hardly eat. As I face my rage, I can eat and my stomach is much better.
DeleteMonica is right. Getting through to them is so difficult it may as well be impossible, and the fight is yours alone. The dynamic changed only with me severing contact. That got through to the bitch in that my absence is a constant reminder to her that my pov is that the gulf between us is too vast to bridge. If I resumed contact with her I doubt anything much would have changed. The narcissist is pretty much beyond hope.
DeleteI wonder what are the consequences of freezing vs fighting. I can tell you what freezing did. It made me afraid to stand up for my opinion, go crazy and sell myself to be liked, have stomach problems such that I could barely eat, for years, extreme distrust of my feelings, pushed anger aside and turned it into depression, could not defend myself, which made more depression and self loathing, as I did not respect myself. Those are just a few ~
ReplyDeleteI think perhaps freezing means you get victimized further, as you describe. Fighting means you will tend to victimize others, even when they're not the original person you were fighting against.
Deletenow that I heard that from the 2 or you, i see i did a little of both. I go back and forth between the 2. It's very weird but i guess it is my normal.
DeleteYes, freezing, I became immobile like a deer caught in the headlights and got victimized by my mother. Thank God, I was never bullied. I had an instinctive understanding of the bullying process with kids, and would not allow that, but for my mother, I lied down and became road kill, as that seemed like the best option. I think, too, that I find bullying to be very weak and cowardly, so that was not an option. I cannot hurt people, for no reason.
ReplyDeleteSocios may have difficulty with codes. Impulse and seeking stimulation can fuck it up. Not easy
ReplyDelete