I read your book on Kindle - you remind me of someone I love but haven't seen for ages. I am neither sociopathic nor normal.
Who is normal? I would list Buddha, Lincoln, Isaac Newton, Leonardo. Most would probably think of these luminaries as beyond normal. For me they represent 'true normal' - 'normal' in a non-statistical sense, a kind of normal having more to do with what is possible than with what is probable. "I shall urge that there is here [in the genius] no real departure from normality; […] but rather a fulfillment of the true norm of man." (FWH Myers) 'True normal' also has to do with self awareness, self mastery, and moral agency. Moral agency requires some degree of self mastery, which in its turn requires self awareness. "The differentia of genius lies in an increased control of subliminal mentation."(FWH Myers)
How close is ME to this true norm? She has a high degree of self awareness, a degree moreover not considered typical for sociopaths. The liar's paradox lurks here. That is, she may be faking it. But I don't think so. Be that as it may, the higher the degree of self awareness, the closer one is to this true norm. So, in my judgement, ME is going in the right direction, the direction of increasing consciousness.
Interestingly, she sees her sociopathy as the motivating force behind her quest for greater self awareness. Perhaps then it is by fulfilling her sociopathic tendencies that she will ultimately outgrow them.
What else? The ability to concentrate is crucial for the development of self awareness, self mastery. To be without guilt, remorse, empathy, depression, can be helpful in this arena. We see this insight expressed over and over again in popular fiction where the cold or emotionless character has greater powers of mind (e.g. of observation or deduction) than his fellows. So here ME has another advantage when it comes to developing greater awareness and therefore, I should stress, a greater range of moral choice.
FIRST!!!!!
ReplyDelete:) Good Morning Sociopathworld!!!!!!!!!
Morning Rich!
DeleteDid you know for the word verification, the only one that needs to be correct is the one that's sort of twisted? The straight word helps the company develop its own word recognition software. For some reason, the straight word always looks like 'fuck' to me, and it never gives me any trouble when I enter that.
Moron!
DeleteAndy, that is interesting, I actually noticed that last week but thought it may have just happened once, I typed all the ;letters in and pressed enter and looked at my screen and realized one of the letters in the first word was wrong and it still went through fine! LOL Now we know ;)
DeletePS_-when did that start? The verification has been here since I came back but it was never here before......
it's a clear indicator that you need to get laid
Deleteit started the day after dr phil.
DeleteYou all need to get laid. Yes , ME is a fake! She has a friend at work whom she finds herself giving mental suport to. She was also regergitating psychotherapist babble...Hell she was quoting scripture lol lol. Must be nice to (get diagnosed by some half ass collage therapist as a "sociopath" )...and then write a book on it.....So basically when a real accredited psychotherapist (dr.phil) had a session with ME charactor. He called he bluff, offered her help asnd she accepted. You see people, one misdiagnosis canreally mess someone up. A second opinion is what ME probably should have considered much sooner. So, I guess the question is now that we know that a true psychotherapist does not believe she is a sociopath.....or he would not have offered her help.
Delete,
It's interesting that the cold, emotionless characters, at least the good ones, also adhere strongly to rules and laws. My guess is that M.E., being a law professor and all, probably has a rather pristine criminal record. She also mentioned that she considered joining the FBI, so she must outwardly appear to be an absolute paragon of virtue.
ReplyDeletePersonal relationships can be very messy, but rather than assign laws to punish heartbreakers, society assumes those who hurt others will be taken care of by social justice. Those adept at playing the game, though, pull strings that nobody sees. They are acutely aware of the placement of their pawns, and nudge them gently rather than try to make them dance about, because then they might realize they are puppets!
The sociopath isn't villified because of the crimes she commits, or those she's assumed to have committed, or even the trail of broken hearts she leaves in her wake. No, she is punished because she doesn't feel the right way about what she's done. She doesn't feel guilty!
Guilt can drive people in one of two directions. Some people feel guilty, and try to make amends, to right the wrong they've caused. Other people feel guilty, but fearing consequences, they rationalize their actions such that they are no longer responsible for the consequences, not culpable, and therefore not guilty.
In my experience, almost nobody takes the former path, and almost everybody takes the latter. If I get caught in a mistake, I accept responsibility for my actions, but I feel no guilt. For some reason, that pisses people off! They need me to look and feel guilty for making a mistake. Even though I accept responsibility, because I don't express an emotion I'm not capable of expressing, they look at me like I'm some kind of monster.
I feel like I need to start acting like some kind of trained dog. Dogs never feel guilty, but they're trained to look guilty. If a dog shits on the floor and you yell at it, and it just sits there panting and wagging its tail, people get pissed. In that case, there's something wrong with the person yelling, not the dog.
"If I get caught in a mistake, I accept responsibility for my actions, but I feel no guilt."
DeleteIs it not empathy/guilt/regret that keeps us from making the same "mistake" over and over again??? If you continue on with the same behavior then how are you taking responsibility for your actions? By leaving the mark who managed to figure it all out too late alone and moving on to a new one???
Your attitude: "Those adept at playing the game, though, pull strings that nobody sees. They are acutely aware of the placement of their pawns, and nudge them gently rather than try to make them dance about, because then they might realize they are puppets!" is what makes you a monster not that you can't express certain emotions!
There are a lot of people who have trouble expressing emotions who never deliberately hurt anyone.
Consequences, or the potential to suffer them, are what prevent me from repeating my mistakes.
DeleteI don't have marks, and I don't play that game, but I think I understand how it could play out.
Rich,
ReplyDeleteI thought you od'd??? Back from the dead are you?
LOL that was just a rumor, I was just taking some "Me time" and changing some things in my life! But now Iam back!!!!!
DeleteWell, I'm glad your back!! Heres to yer health : )
DeleteAndy, there are dogs who act guilty the minute they do something wrong (as in something for which they were scolded in the past) without anyone yelling at the dog. Watch out for your generalizations.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed your description of the two ways people deal with guilt. Curious about your thoughts on guilt conflict. Meaning, what about when people would face a decision where the two alternative solutions would both induce guilt toward different parties and values. How do people choose? The less guilty road or the most fun since both roads have some guilt associated with them?
Hi Sceli!
DeleteFor the first part, from the abstract of a research article, PubMed ID: 19520245
"The behaviours of 14 domestic dogs (Canis familiaris) were videotaped over a series of trials and analyzed for elements that correspond to an owner-identified "guilty look." Trials varied the opportunity for dogs to disobey an owner's command not to eat a desirable treat while the owner was out of the room, and varied the owners' knowledge of what their dogs did in their absence. The results revealed no difference in behaviours associated with the guilty look. By contrast, more such behaviours were seen in trials when owners scolded their dogs. The effect of scolding was more pronounced when the dogs were obedient, not disobedient. These results indicate that a better description of the so-called guilty look is that it is a response to owner cues, rather than that it shows an appreciation of a misdeed."
The best example to illustrate your second point is as follows.
A friend of yours tells you that he's cheating on his girlfriend, who is also your friend. Keeping the secret makes you feel guilt for not telling the girlfriend, but telling her makes you feel guilty for betraying the trust of your male friend. There is no 'guilt free' solution, besides urging the male friend to tell the truth. This is the option that most people will pursue, and when they give the male sufficient opportunity to 'come clean' and he doesn't, they will tell the female and feel less guilty for betraying the male.
It comes down to guilt minimization. I'm very good at keeping secrets, because I don't really care about other people's problems. The best solution for me is to keep quiet, because it gives me points with the male friend and I'm unlikely to be blamed by the female. I can also invent an excuse for not telling the female if she does find out. As a party not directly responsible for her pain, I can comfort her which will erase any bad feelings she may have towards me. I can express sympathy, but not empathy.
Just a couple ideas, I have very little empirical evidence to go on, because I really don't care much for these kinds of issues :P
I dont understand why people want to wallow in guilt. I am thinking that they do that to punish themselves. If your actions make you feel bad and you think you need to feel punished , by all means guilt away. I think guilt is there for control how some people want to be punished.
DeleteI have a n father who only wants to say and feel guilt. he controls how people treat him this way. They see how bad he feels and so they lay off scolding him.
Andy, tell me, what sort of thought process would you have if one of your targets committed suicide because what you did to them hurt them and ruined their lives so badly.
DeleteTargets? What do you think I am, some kind of sociopath? I have no targets, and never have had any.
DeleteI thought you were a sociopath. Are you not? If not, what are you? Anyone else can feel free to answer the question too.
Deleteandys not a socio, i dont know what he is, and i dont think he does either, but hes no socio. as for me i once did accidentaly cause someone i considered a friend to perform suicide, but i feel no remorse over it. i even used my knowledge of his mental state to torture his daughter (my recent ex) when she wouldnt return a possesion of mine that had been left with her in the split. now i wouldnt intentionally try to convince someone to suicide but i feel no guilt for aiding his thought processes in his
DeleteAndy
ReplyDeleteYou really like to hear yourself talk~
Would it be better for me to stop posting comments? I'm as turned off by giant walls of text as anyone else, but I have no trouble choosing not to read what doesn't interest me.
DeleteAlternatively, I can be far more eloquent and interesting, but then green eyes will yell at me and I'm trying to avoid drawing her ire.
Talk from your heart, Andy, not your head. Don't lecture us. You have nothing intellectual to teach us. How do you feel? That is what is interesting imo
DeleteCan do!
DeleteI've recently had major changes in my personal and professional life. I feel like I've finally found balance on a highwire, and have just leapt four feet onto a parallel one. It's so hard to find balance in a new place, working with new people, and I feel like I could plummet to my death at any moment.
I hate change, it always disrupts my balance, and I'm always on the edge of equilibrium or an explosive chain reaction.
as for me i am always interested in what you have to say andy, intellectual or emotional. you are one of the more entertaining posters on this site
DeleteThanks, sevvack khan :) Anyways, Monica asked how I felt and didn't respond, so it's unlikely I'll respond to any more of her prodding.
DeleteThis one needs an explanation. What's funny is that Monica says this.
ReplyDeleteMonicaMay 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM
Andy
You really like to hear yourself talk~
Hahaha
DeleteKeep up the good work, you always put a smile on my face, Funny Bit.
@Funny Bit
ReplyDeleteI will take that as said affectionately ^^
Sans tacky blond wig, ME lookks like Gina Gershon with her luscious lips and haunting dark eyes.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's Showgirls. ME needed a break due to boredom and the life of a dancer is tough. That's why the self destructive interview.
It looks like Monica encouraged ME to out herself, but no. ME cunningly seduced the sexy fair Monica to replace her from the start.
COngratulations, Monica
^ spot on.
DeleteFor real M.E. is pretty cute!!!! I think she is pretty seductive as well, as she said about herself in her book, she has seduced both men and women to get farther in her career. M.E. is interesting!!!!!!! I like dangerous women for some reason LOL!
DeleteYou are so cute, Rich. I still can't believe you are not dead and I feel so happy every time I see you post!
DeleteAs do I. Good to see you back, Rich. ♥
DeleteAndy, what you copied there basically tells that owners generally have no idea what the guilty-look is. I'd say for a dog the guilty look i sthe body language that appears to be terrified that some kind of punishment is soon to proceed, so it is more fear than feeling of guilty. Maybe ours was a conflict of terms as opposed to clarifying the meaning.
ReplyDeleteAnd, no it would not be better for you to stop posting comments, don't let bullies turn you off. It appears that Monica is here to listen to how you feel more than listening to a lecture. I'm here to learn if there is something to learn and people's feelings are only a part of that learning. I'm not sure what her issue is but I appreciated your giving me an honest answer and I really liked the example you gave and the solution you chose along with its justification; this, of course, does not mean that yours would be my preferred solution as well.
Your response of 'can do!' to Monica reminded me of Rich. Happy to collaborate and move on kind of response. Very upbeat. I got the feeling you're younger than 30 or you're at a job sufficiently boring that SW provides a good steady distraction.
To Monica's credit, I am an attention whore here. What goes on in my head not only completely justifies her, but makes her conclusion a severe underestimation of my incomparable egocentricity.
DeleteFor example, I'm happy as a pig in shit that you've deduced my age and the fact that work is slow right now, because you're paying attention to me!
My example, choices, and explanation of the guilt scenario were highly simplified. Situations vary, as may my actions, but my sentiments, or lack thereof, are mostly constant.
LOL Iam always okay with a little collaboration and cooperation, but I also like pretty much all of the members here, so it isint hard for me ;)
Deleteandy, do you not feel it at all a little risky to reveal your desire for attention and willingness to receive it through this medium on a site populated by socios. youve given someone like me an in should we choose to take it
DeleteWell, I hate having to be in control of everything, for one. There are almost no variables in my life, no surprises! If someone wanted to fuck with me, I'd probably enjoy it. As for killing me or ruining my life, well, those tasks are much easier for me to complete than anyone else.
DeleteBesides, if you're anything like me, the effort has to be worth the reward. It would be much easier to fuck with my head here! Why not have a go, or are you already?
well you can rest assured that im not going to track you down and do you bodily harm or any such thing. that would probably be way out of my way based on my theory that you live in the mid-south east coast of america. which im not sure about but youve dropped hints that have led me to believe it, but i may have some fun with you online
DeleteLooking forward to it! Games are fun :)
DeleteTantalizing Thursday Themes
ReplyDeleteTheme for Andy
DeleteM.E. has affection for her nieces and nephews!
ReplyDeleteComing from a family of psychopaths I can tell you M.E. is anything but one.
My sister was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder when she was forced into counselling because of my brother. My brother should be writing that book. My brother, father & mother would never drop their mask to the world and that is the difference between a psychopath and narcissist in a blond wig.
Watching Dr. Phil I was struck by how similar M.E. and my sister’s mannerisms and wannabe accent are.
Your brother, mother and father are all psychopaths? How does that happen?
ReplyDeletePsychopath man meets psychopath woman.
DeleteThey marry shortly after meeting and procreate.
I am gonna admit something on here. I will probably look stupid but I don't care.
ReplyDeleteI got my dog back for anyone who read about that. I missed her so much and I asked my friend if I could have her back and my friend agreed.
Somehow that relates to the fact that I saw myself, as I was, today. I have been non functional for a long time but was lying to myself. I have this full life on the computer. I have a business and websites I go to like this but I feel like I am not good enough to have a full real life.
I saw that today.
What happened to your dog that your friend had her?
Deletedid anyone else laugh when she said "full life on the computer"?
DeleteMonica i am happy you decided that you deserved me instead of thinking and acting like you were a bad mother to me.
DeleteAww @ Monica's Dog
Delete@Sevvack I am here to let my mask drop. Why bother coming here if I have to fake it ~
@Eden
Yes, another friend gave me this dog at the time of two deaths-- My son and my 13 year old Standard Poodle. I could not bond to this dog and could not train her. I don't know all the reasons but it was related to the losses.
My other friend loved her and took her but then she would come to visit and I realized that this dog is a separate creature from all that and I am bonding with her in a wonderful way. God worked it out for me. It was kind of a mini miracle but I am very happy it worked out.
How are you, Eden?
How long did your friend keep her? I would think she'd be kind of hurt to have to give the dog back to you, if she's grown attached. Is the dog trained now? Dogs are a lot of work, for sure. And they need the most, as pets go. That's why I always prefer cats. But I'm happy to dog sit for people on occasion. They're a lot of fun, and have bigger personalities than cats. :)
DeleteJust a few weeks and thankfully, she had another dog and my dog was dominating everyone, so I think she was happy to let her go.
DeleteOh. Well, that's good then. No tension between friends. I've read that you've been really down for a while. What steps have you been taking to mend yourself, lately? Keep yourself healthy?
DeleteThanks Eden. Well, I am having this very weird thing happening and maybe you know what it is or someone else does. I stopped talking to my mother. I am asking God to make me whole and restore me to an undamaged state. Little by little, I can see things as they are like I am coming out of the trance state with all the lies.
DeleteHowever, my body feels really sick like a bad flu is coming on me. I wonder if the energy from my mother and all the lies etc is leaving my body and making me feel this way.
ALSO, I want to hear all about you! :)
They say in yoga that even emotions, when finally released into the body, can be like poison. Just keep working through it. You're body will heal when all that toxic shit is out of your system.
DeleteI'll tell you how I'm doing later. I'm all over the place right now. Maybe tonight or tomorrow.
Aww Thanka Eden. That helps. I think my eyesight is getting better, too.
DeleteI will look forward to your update and I appreciate the comments as I feel really weird, physically.
Sorry to hear about your son Monica. I've been coming here a while and I didn't know that.
DeleteThank you Anon. That is very kind of you to say and very appreciated!
DeleteI come up from a region, somewhere but I am sure it is below. I wonder why it is so hard to take a breath. I feel like I must be drowning, yet I don't die so it must be an old wives tale.
ReplyDeleteI look back at the times I knew something. I was on sand that has since eroded and become a kind of funky mud. I just kept feeling it dissolve and dissolve until nothing was left. Then, I just fell through to somewhere and there I sit.
DeleteAnyone else bored bored hearing about the book?
ReplyDeletei very much am, and if you check the number of comments on most of her book excerts and related posts youll see that most of them are much lower than the numbers for many other posts. it seems alot of people grow bored of the book
DeleteI am reading the posts diagonally lately. I have no interest in the book.
DeleteThursday Themes
ReplyDeleteTheme for ME
DeleteLove,
Themes
To refer to Andy's much earlier comment about people getting pissed at a dog which wags its tail while being scolded, I have found that I have a similar problem. When I piss somebody off and they react by "scolding" I often try to offer a friendly smile to show them that I mean no harm etc. They will then say I'm smirking at them and be even more angry. What do these fucking people want?
ReplyDeleteSociopaths aren't the only ones who engage in power plays. When they show anger and you respond by showing guilt, they exercise their power and authority over you. If you don't respond appropriately, you make them feel impotent, which pisses them off more.
DeleteDon't give them what they want.
Unless you wanna play too. Then you can pretend to feel guilt and see their fake face lighting up. To play with an spath it is fun for a little while, not enought to be interesting though.
Delete