Some of [Gary] Becker's most compelling early research concerned altruism. He argued, for instance, that the same person who might be purely selfish in business could be exceedingly altruistic among people he knew -- although, importantly (Becker is an economist, after all), he predicted that altruism even within a family would have a strategic element.
Summers empirically demonstrated Becker's point. Using data from a U.S. government longitudinal study, they showed that an elderly parent in a retirement home is more likely to be visited by his grown children if they are expecting a sizable inheritance.
But wait, you say: maybe the offspring of wealthy families are simply more caring toward their elderly parents?
A reasonable conjecture -- in which case you'd expect an only child of wealthy parents to be especially dutiful. But the data show no increase in retirement- home visits if a wealthy family has only one grown child; there need to be at least two. This suggests that the visits increase because of competition between siblings for the parent's estate.
This illustrates an interesting problem in defining altruism not just as good acts, but good acts done selflessly:
How can we know whether an act is altruistic or self- serving? If you help rebuild a neighbor's barn, is it because you're a moral person or because you know your own barn might burn down someday? When a donor gives millions to his alma mater, is it because he cares about the pursuit of knowledge or because he gets his name plastered on the football stadium?
Sorting out such things in the real world is extremely hard. While it is easy to observe actions, it is much harder to understand the intentions behind an action.
After an interesting discussion of several lab experiments, researchers conclude that true altruism (if it exists as all) is elusive as a unicorn or Nessie:
If John List's research proves anything, it's that a question like "Are people innately altruistic?" is the wrong kind of question to ask. People aren't "good" or "bad." People are people, and they respond to incentives. They can nearly always be manipulated -- for good or ill -- if only you find the right levers.
This is a reply that to a discussion that began over 5 or 6 posts ago, at "Playing doctor(part 1)":
ReplyDeleteI don't fucking want to see posts just from M.E.'s point of view, i don't want him out of the closet, i want to see an infinity of different points of view. So M.E. go on doing what you were doing till now. The post that gave us insight on your life was also interesting. Go on with that too, but not just that.
Second, about the rape being legal post. Fuckheads: if you don't understand something, it doesn't mean that it's wrong.
The guy said that a genuine rapist can't get pleasure out of normal sex because in normal sex the consort has consent. On the market there is no raping for a rapist to get pleasure. So that's how raping should be legal.
So, if I just get pleasure by killing people like you that should make it legal and I can proceed? The point of legality is not to support that all the whims of people are satisfied, but the respect between individuals. Are you a teen?
DeleteI think we should respect each other differences, even if the different viewpoints are distrurbing. We are after all discussing on a website about sociopathy, nothing here is supposed to be "normal".
DeleteOut in the human world you will find all sorts of people who think all sorts of things. If you are going to be upset about it, then you are in for alot of grief. Thats how it is, better accept it and take this whole fact with rational calmness.
Fred wants to legalize rape. I think that gavinbg whatever opinion you want is OK. I propably know people, or could find people who would gladly endulge with him in his rape fantasies. I can't promise however, that he will be on top ;)
On the market there is no raping for a rapist to get pleasure. So that's how raping should be legal.
DeleteBecause it is logical to esteem rarely manifested, deviant sexual proclivities above a person's right to exercise autonomy over their own body! :D
I know it's from an old post, but I just had to comment on that little gem. Who comes up with this bullshit? Lol!
STFU FRED, U GOT NO BRAINZ IN UR HEAD, PLUS THE CONVERSATION WAS DEAD. WHATS SAID IS SAID AND I WONT BE LED BACK TO THAT BED, WE DONE FUCKED ON IT TOO MUCH ALREADY, THE DAMN THINGS UNSTEADY, WOULD FALL APART BEFORE I STARTED BREATHING HEAVY, PLUS ITS JUST BORING NOW, I NEED A NEW PLACE FOR SCORING NOW, BUT SINCE YOU'RE WHORING OUT, WHY DON'T YOU COME UP WITH A NEW STORY NOW, FOR US TO DISCUSS, A NEW THEME IS A MUST, IF YOU WANT TO TALK THE TOPIC MUST ADJUST.
ReplyDeletehttp://tts.imtranslator.net/APg2
ReplyDeletelol
ReplyDeleteI like making up rymes too..with MY SON!! That's pretty good though!
ReplyDeleteFUCK U IM WAY BETTER THAN UR SON WATCH!!
ReplyDeleteI penetrate em as I serenade em, cut em up and then I marinade em, with music and with sauce, stir saucey rhymes into my pots. bring that bitch up to a boil and hear em screamin FUCKIN HOT!!
Then I get out my axe and the metaphors collapse, I just start to swing and hack, and the people all stand back. the music sorta stops until the massacre begins, then everybody sings, screaming so many pretty things, about their kids playing on the swings, and their husbands and their wives. so many perfect lives, don't know why they can't be mine. but i'll never let it end, not for any of my friends, i'll preserve these precious times in between these rhyming lines, recording what they live for... as everybody dies.
you're both annoying..
ReplyDeleteoh sorry. my son is only seven. i wasn't comparing.
ReplyDeleteI don't know anyone who acts without motive. But maybe someone can explain a bit on what altruism is.
You've inspired me, sir. Don't ever let anyone call you a retard, retard!
ReplyDeleteJohn the Rapper
Another great painting by the pseudonymous artist Peter Pan.
ReplyDeleteBRAVO. BRAVO, Sir.
(I'm serious. I cackled at that masterpiece.)
LOL - so is anonymous a plagiarist or is he "John the Rapper"?
ReplyDeleteThis was something I put together in the bath last sunday:
Hey Mr Sociopath Man
Hey ! Mr Sociopath Man, play a song for me
I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to
Hey ! Mr Sociopath Man, play a song for me
In the jingle jangle morning I'll come followin' you.
Though I know that evenin's empire has returned into sand
Vanished from my hand
Left me blindly here to stand but still not sleeping
My weariness amazes me, I'm branded on my feet
I have no one to meet
And the ancient empty street's too dead for dreaming.
Hey ! Mr Sociopath Man, play a song for me
I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to
Hey ! Mr Sociopath Man, play a song for me
In the jingle jangle morning I'll come followin' you.
Take me on a trip upon your magic swirlin' ship
My senses have been stripped, my hands can't feel to grip
My toes too numb to step, wait only for my boot heels
To be wanderin'
I'm ready to go anywhere, I'm ready for to fade
Into my own parade, cast your dancing spell my way
I promise to go under it.
Hey ! Mr Sociopath Man, play a song for me
I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to
Hey ! Mr Sociopath Man, play a song for me
In the jingle jangle morning I'll come followin' you.
Though you might hear laughin', spinnin' swingin' madly across the sun
It's not aimed at anyone, it's just escapin' on the run
And but for the sky there are no fences facin'
And if you hear vague traces of skippin' reels of rhyme
To your Sociopath in time, it's just a ragged clown behind
I wouldn't pay it any mind, it's just a shadow you're
Seein' that he's chasing.
Hey ! Mr Sociopath Man, play a song for me
I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to
Hey ! Mr Sociopath Man, play a song for me
In the jingle jangle morning I'll come followin' you.
Then take me disappearin' through the smoke rings of my mind
Down the foggy ruins of time, far past the frozen leaves
The haunted, frightened trees, out to the windy beach
Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow
Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free
Silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands
With all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves
Let me forget about today until tomorrow.
Hey ! Mr Sociopath Man, play a song for me
I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to
Hey ! Mr Sociopath Man, play a song for me
In the jingle jangle morning I'll come followin' you.
feature on John the Rapper
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni3bPWH5tFg
"STFU FRED, U GOT NO BRAINZ IN UR HEAD, PLUS THE CONVERSATION WAS DEAD. WHATS SAID IS SAID AND I WONT BE LED BACK TO THAT BED, WE DONE FUCKED ON IT TOO MUCH ALREADY, THE DAMN THINGS UNSTEADY, WOULD FALL APART BEFORE I STARTED BREATHING HEAVY, PLUS ITS JUST BORING NOW, I NEED A NEW PLACE FOR SCORING NOW, BUT SINCE YOU'RE WHORING OUT, WHY DON'T YOU COME UP WITH A NEW STORY NOW, FOR US TO DISCUSS, A NEW THEME IS A MUST, IF YOU WANT TO TALK THE TOPIC MUST ADJUST."
ReplyDeleteStupid anonymous fuck.
THIS COMING FROM THE IDIOT WHO TOOK A WEEK TO THINK OF SOMETHING TO SAY AND THEN HAD TO POST HIS COMMENT IN AN UNRELATED BLOG POST JUST TO GET SOME ATTENTION WAAAAAHHHH CRY ME A RIVAH NIGGA!
ReplyDelete“If John List's research proves anything, it's that a question like "Are people innately altruistic?" is the wrong kind of question to ask.”
ReplyDeleteThe fact that we cannot test someone motives yet doesn’t mean that people are not altruistic.
Psychological tests have some limitations, maybe one day we will be able to screen if the actions of generosity performed in a test were altruistic or interested, and we will be able to unmask the hypocrites.
“People aren't "good" or "bad." People are people, and they respond to incentives.”
People are people, yes, but there is a very wide range of people, some do more evil than others, so they rate higher in the “bad” and others higher in the “good”. If they rate very high in the “bad” they have many odds to be diagnosed as sociopaths.
Ever since M.E wrote the damn book this place have been plastered with retards
ReplyDeleteLOL
DeleteI was here long before the tards :)
DeleteTrue altruism is taking a costly action to help someone else, where the price (or risk) is far greater than the personal reward. I'll try to provide some examples.
ReplyDeleteDonating a kidney.
Running into a burning building to save someone.
Taking a bullet for someone.
Supporting an unpopular oppressed minority.
Attacking someone engaged in committing a rape or murder.
Trying to scare a bear that is chasing someone slower than you.
There are smaller 'random acts of kindness' such as holding the door for people, or giving your ice cream to a child that has dropped theirs. In these cases, though, the price is so small that it doesn't really fit my definition of altruism. Most people will go through life never really doing anything altruistic.
The trolls sure do come out early nowadays, it must be getting close to summer :)
I think Edward Snowden has done something truly altruistic.
DeleteAgreed. The cost for him was too high.
DeleteI find myself linking his personality with yours, Andy, on some (completely irrational) level. I could see you doing something like that.
DeleteAltruism does not require heroic sacrifices, just because you are not able to detect the altruism in smaller actions.
DeleteActually some of your examples could hide ulterior motives. If Jamie would donate a kidney right now I would not believe it is altruistic at all ;)
Instead of asking economist maybe it is better to ask psychologist about altruism:
“Human infants as young as 14 to 18 months of age help others attain their goals, for example, by helping them to fetch out-of-reach objects or opening cabinets for them. They do this irrespective of any reward from adults (indeed external rewards undermine the tendency), and very likely with no concern for such things as reciprocation and reputation, which serve to maintain altruism in older children and adults.”
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~lds/pdfs/Warneken&Tomasello_2009b.pdf
@Mach I have been known to do stupid things, the definition of stupid of course meaning actions with high personal cost and low reward.
DeleteI'm now slightly paranoid about google asking for my phone number. What better place for the government to find bad people than a nest of sociopaths? All they have to do is sift through my posts, find all the bad things, take them out of context, and I'll be in prison in no time! Woo!
at least you didn't write a rabble rousing column this week citing Patrick Henry (Give me Liberty or Give me death!) Yeah... I win the stupid award :)
DeleteI took a homeless woman in my car and bought her some fast food and gave her $50 on her prepaid phone so she could receive calls for jobs. What was my motive? I suppose I would want someone to do the same for me if I were in her position.
ReplyDeleteYes, that's why I do stuff too. I would want someone to help my mother or my sister or my nephew or myself in similar circumstances. I don't know if I believe 'what goes around comes around' but I behave as if I do.
DeleteIn some cases I just feel I have enough to share. If someone asks, I'll give if I can. Any one of us could end up on skid row. My father was quietly altrustic, he was constantly giving his time and money away. I don't know what he gained from it but he was a very contented man and always comfortable materially despite his generosity.
watch the`movie "Pay It Forward"
Delete
Deletewhat about love? do you think what goes around comes around with love?
I always think the more i love, the less i will be loved.
"what about love? do you think what goes around comes around with love?"
DeleteYes, I think I do. Just as long as you don't limit your definition to romantic love. Your relationships may not have panned out because of a dysfunctional childhood dynamic or whatever but I bet you have rich friendships that will nourish you for the rest of your life.
People aren't "good" or "bad." People are people…
ReplyDeleteBINGO!
They can nearly always be manipulated -- for good or ill -- if only you find the right levers.
And here is an inconvenient truth stated plainly.
Yes.
DeleteWanton Wed Themes
ReplyDeleteTheme for THE sexy Daniel
DeleteTheme for Jessi
DeleteYou were fighting in some war like a brave solider. Then you find the sides change or the war was called off. You feel like a fool.You thought your loyalties meant something
ReplyDeleteThe players shift around like marble chess pieces, looking solid but being gossamer. That is how it feels when you sacrificed your limbs for your country and it was all a made up war.
Anyone who thinks their "loyalty" means anything within the context of a war is incredibly naive. Why do you think Army recruiters seek out 18 year old boys fresh out of high school? It isn't merely a question of their being fit and testosterone-laden. The best soldiers are gullible, approval-seeking peons in a game waged by self-serving opportunists and propagandists.
DeleteThe rules of war are as capricious as the politicians who endorse them.
Screw all their systems and ploys. I'm learning to sustain myself.
Masters of War
DeleteCome you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks
You that never done nothin’
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it’s your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people’s blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud
You’ve thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain’t worth the blood
That runs in your veins
How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I’m young
You might say I’m unlearned
But there’s one thing I know
Though I’m younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
And I hope that you die
And your death’ll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I’ll watch while you’re lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I’ll stand o’er your grave
’Til I’m sure that you’re dead
-Bob Dylan, 1963
the best soldiers are ones who need something for them to feel they have a purpose. people need it.
Deletei was walking oneday and a boy said he was looking for army recruitment center, he said he just got out of rehab. he was so happy to be going somewhere to belong, somewhere safe, (haha) somewhere people would make him feel he was valuable....
alterego, is this^ the same thing as approval seeking??
lost people need to belong somewhere.
DeleteHe did not want to be an addict anymore, so i guess the army would make sure he was drug free. this doesnt mean he felt he doesnt belong. He was taking care of himself, that's all.
DeleteSure. Wanting to feel valuable and accepted constitutes a desire for approval. That person was so desperate to find new sources of affirmation that he sought out the recruiters himself. They didn't even have to come knocking; like a fly to a pitcher plant, he walked from one self-imposed prison to another.
Deletewhat kind of people feel they need to have a purpose, then?
ReplyDeleteI am always delighted by Andy's great insights. Please ignore that person's annoying remarks about u. Have a great day, folks!
ReplyDelete