Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are, and those few dare not oppose themselves to the opinion of the many, who have the majesty of the state to defend them.
So true! Oh the charm, the sexiness and the charisma....how could anyone resist? Those that don't know, don't want to know. They want their fantasy to exist. They want to be able to believe in someone. They feel a strength within the socio that somehow decreases their own vulnerabilities and gives them a hero, someone for which they can pattern themselves after. They love how they feel around the socio. Whether it be friend, lover, family member, whatever the relationship, people want to believe.
People want to believe but there a those out there that despite their desire to believe, when they realize they are being conned and the socio is a fraud, they value truth more than fantasy and will hold out for the real thing. The fraudulant behavior is so disturbing to those people that they do not care about the "many" because they are aware that if they reveal the truth, that some of the "many" will grab hold of their own strength, perspective and value for the truth and allow themselves to let go of the fantasy and be open to the clues that will eventually reveal the ugly picture that hides behind the one that glitters. The flashier the glitter, the uglier the picture.
Hi 2. How are you? I don't know about where you are, but where I am, it is a beautiful sunny day and can't wait to go out and play....lol
Now for your question. I would say that it does and it doesn't matter. It depends on the circumstances.
If you are someone that is a casual aquaintance and there is no possibility for intimate interaction then it doesn't matter unless of course the socio is considering the possibility of ripping the empath off or taking adantage in some way. Let me clarify what I mean when I say "intimacy" as it relates to relationships that are not romantic. Intimacy, in this sense is the exchange of deep honest truths that are meant to be between just 2 people. In that case it matters because one person is giving something of themself and the other is giving nothing. Anytime a person gives a part of themself, they risk that the other will take advantage or hurt them somehow. If both people are open, sharing parts of themselves , there is equal risk on both sides. For this to happen, there is usually alot of trust involved. The trust for the empath is based on false information. If the empath had the real info, they would not trust and they would not choose to reveal their truth which to most people is sacred. If the intimacy continues, it goes beyond deception. It can become like somewhat of a betrayal because one person becomes more and more invested as truths are shared and the other has no stock in any of it.
In a romantic relationship, depending on how the relationship is set up, it might not matter. The relationship that UK described that he has with his "queen" is one in which it doesn't matter and in fact the dynamics likely make the relationship stronger and more intense than the average relationship (BTW, where is UK? UK, come out, come out werever u are). To have the type of relationship that he has, it required him to have a bit of genuine intimacy which most socios are not capable of. It required, first of all that he knows himself to begin with and a willingness to trust and share with another who he really is. In that case it doesn't matter because the other person knows what they are getting themselves into and they know the risks. They give the full consent having been given the full disclosure. If a socio goes into a relationship with an empath and the empath has no clue, that to me is along the lines of rape. The emapth willingly gives their body, mind and soul to stranger all the while thinking that they know the person and are on even playing ground. The stranger (socio) gives only what they want the empath to see. In the end, the empath, if and when they find out what they have been really dealing with is devastated beyond words. Their life with this "fantasy" love was not real. They wasted their, love, energy, emotions and most importantly their prescious time on a person that was nothing more than a fraud. The pain and the punishment that results from this is far more severe than the ecstacy of the experience which is usually short lived. It's not worth the trip. It can take many years to get beyond that kind of violation. Some people that have had relationships with socios that were fraudulant go on and are unable to trust again. Many end up alone for the rest of their lives, while the socio moves on and has many more relationships. They are never alone.
In the everyday sense, relating as acquaintances, it really doesn't matter. In fact, the socio probably brings alot to the group and helps to bring out others who would normally be kind of shy. The short version of the long one is that sometimes is matters and and sometimes it doesn't. Have a great day! Zan
Zan: "Hi 2. How are you? I don't know about where you are, but where I am, it is a beautiful sunny day and can't wait to go out and play....lol"
Sigh. I can't go out and play because I have no one to play with. . . :( I currently have no projects, so I'm becoming schizoidic. (Hence the apathy in my first comment.)
What I was thinking of when I wrote that question was more along the lines of how sociopaths keep up their facade. Essentially, the 'real' picture never really comes out, so it doesn't matter. Think of it a bit like this:
If it looks like a duck, pretends to be a duck, and does all the things ducks do, it might as well be a duck.
(I'm sorry that I can't really give you as much a lengthy reply as you have given me. It's part of the schizoid sinking it. ._. )
2, I was feeling like you are last week. I was in the dumps. I had just finished the grueling project of taking down wall paper in my kitchen and painting. It was not a smooth operation since I had intended to paint over the wallpaper after sealing the seams etc. I bought the wrong kind of products. The wallpaper started coming off along with half the drywall and before you know it I was knee deep in dust, drywall and old wallpaper. I had to rebuild the walls with joint compound before I could prime and paint. I thought I was going to lose it. It looks great now. After I was done, I was so exausted that I felt like I had the flu. I also felt this kind of let down, like, OK, now my kitchen is done, what next? Now I'm working on a painting. I always need to have a project going on or else I go crazy.
Anyway, I agree with you. The duck can look and quack like a duck as long as in doing so, it does not hurt or kill off any of the other ducks. Quack, quack...lol. Zan
Zan, I agree with your comment. It is a huge violation to enter into a relationship with someone and have that individual share there heart, mind, soul and body with with a person only to find out later that the whole thing was a complete fabrication. I can imagine that learning such information would equate to complete, utter devestation and would take an individual much time to rebuild themselves and their lives. I am speaking about longer relationships as I really don't feel that it would be necessary to share that information with someone that you are only casually dating. I am involved with someone who disclosed their sociopathic nature to me quite early (I am one of those uber-empaths), which after reading your post makes me appreciate him all the more. I realize now that by him telling me this there is a certain level of trust and respect that exists on his part towards me. In that same regard it has allowed me to understand and process my own emotions much better when it comes to him. Our relationship is not perfect but at least there is truth in it. He is not presenting himself to be something that he isn't and as a result I love him for who he is.
Interesting comments Zan. I thought I’d post a response.
First question: why would you want an exchange of “honest truths”? What do you hope to gain from that? On a side note, is there such a thing as a dishonest truth?
You go on to say: Anytime a person gives a part of themself, they risk that the other will take advantage or hurt them somehow. If both people are open, sharing parts of themselves , there is equal risk on both sides... It can become like somewhat of a betrayal because one person becomes more and more invested as truths are shared and the other has no stock in any of it.
You can only be hurt if you believe that your well being is dependent on someone else’s honesty. You betray yourself when you place your happiness in someone else’s hands.
If a socio goes into a relationship with an empath and the empath has no clue, that to me is along the lines of rape… In the end, the empath, if and when they find out what they have been really dealing with is devastated beyond words. Their life with this "fantasy" love was not real.
Exactly. And who is responsible for creating and perpetuating this fantasy, the liar or the believer? The believer. The believer is responsible for what he believes, for holding onto a fantasy. You don’t have to believe anything anyone says, let alone base your happiness on it.
You can never truly know everything about another person. You cannot see all of their thoughts, you cannot feel all of their feelings and you do not have the power to go back in time and view their history. It is foolish to base your good feelings on someone else’s words for those reasons alone. What’s more, to do so overlooks the true source of good feelings. Your feelings, good and bad, happen entirely within you. You create them. Always. You can, theoretically, create those good feelings whenever you want, with and without your partner.
Your well being is always your responsibility. To believe someone else has to be honest with you before you can feel good about yourself and your life is a surefire recipe for disappointment, whether you are with a sociopath or not.
I concur! The most dreadful thing one can do is be honest! There are occasions when the truth is called for, but one must learn to differentiate. Hasn't anyone heard the Depeche Mode song "Policy of Truth?"
"You'd better learn your lesson well Hide what you have to hide And tell what you have to tell. You'll see your problems multiply If you continually decide To faithfully pursue A policy of truth."
Thanks Fred for your understanding of Rape. I am an empath and I was raped of my soul as well with native american bad medicine from a Sociopath occult user. They are very sick people and there is no hope for them sad to say. After 3 years of being poisioned with native indian medicine so that the sociopath could control, manipulate, attempted murder on me, murdering 2 indoor house cats,and 10 times more abuse where you can't get away because of the curses that this man put on me. As of today Sunday July 21,13, he is trying to extort me for $80,000.00 to take the horrific torturing curses off of me. Sociopath are sick as it it but multiply that with native medicine in the Occult. I beg God everyday to help me and to see fit if its Gods will to punish or stop him completely. I am a Christian and I never ever thought some a infected person could ever be on earth. What a rude awakening for some one who is loving and quiet. God bless all victomes
You make good points. I enjoy reading responses such as yours because it makes my mind think in different ways. I think an individual can be hurt even if you do not base your happiness on another individual. I know I have the ability to control and manage my own emotions but that doesn't mean that I won't still experience feelings of sadness if I learn that someone that I was involved with on an intimate level was not who I thought they were. Given your unique perspective on others around you and your ability to hone in on someones true self, surely you can understand how disappointing it would be to learn that someone you thought you knew, was not who you thought they were. Empaths and others can only rely on instinct and what is provided to them in the way of information. So if a S gets very involved with empath and knowing the limitations that exist, is that not the S's responsibility?
I do understand Zan. All too well. You will of course experience emotional pain when you find out someone isn’t who you thought they were. Notice the causal links here between your pain and you discovering someone isn’t who you “knew” they were. That’s my point. You don’t “know” anyone else. You can’t. You can only have subjective beliefs about others. If you dropped beliefs like “I can ‘know’ someone else” and “my loved ones should tell me the truth as much as possible”, you wouldn’t experience a whole lot of disappointment in people.
So if a S gets very involved with empath and knowing the limitations that exist, is that not the S's responsibility?
The S, the normal, whoever, cannot be responsible for the risks you take with your heart, nor can they be responsible for how you choose to structure your beliefs. The reality is, no one owes you a thing.
"So if a S gets very involved with empath and knowing the limitations that exist, is that not the S's responsibility?" Hi Dan, In my view, it is if the 'S' does not reveal who he is.
I partially agree with some of the things you have said, but I feel that your thinking is very simplistic and does not take into account the dementions that exist within the empath but not the 'S'. You are an 'S', am I right, Dan? If so, you could not be expected to understand the devastation that occurs in the situation that I described in my previous post.
Yes, we are all responsible for our own happiness. If that were not the case we would make lousy partners. To put the burdon of our happiness on anyone is unfair. Our happiness needs to come from knowing ourselves well enough to feel comfortable in our own skin, knowing our strengths, limitations and the things that bring us joy.
I feel a contentment within myself. I would say that I am generally a happy person. I am a happy single person. I sometimes think I would like to have a partner but it is difficult to trust and it takes too much energy to attempt to date. I have adjusted my life to being single. I know what it is, isn't and I feel comfortable and content.
One day Mr Right appears. He meets me as a happy, complete and fulfilled person in my own right. We date, fall in love and go through the phases that 2 people go through as they settle into a relationship that feels mutually honest, loving, committed, and it is agreed that it is monogamous.
Our lives become integrated and happiness is no longer just about myself. There is a mutual concern about the other's happiness within the relationship. It does not mean that I do not still have the happiness that I came into the relationship with, but there is now a new demension of happiness. The love and happines of the relationship can be so powerful that it can threaten the core happiness of even the most emotionally healthy person.
3 years into the relationship, I learn that he has been living a double life, filled with deviant sex with multiple partners among many other things that were never revealed in the entire time I have known this individual. As far as I knew, we were a "happy family". I now need to accept that this person was not who he presented. I have to let him go.
It is like experiencing a death, only you don't even know what died. It was his fantasy that died, not mine. He created, presented it and made it real to me and others. The pain of mourning a death is hard enough but to not even know what or who you are mourning AND to know that the shell that held the fantasy is still walking around, acting like you never existed is mind blowing.
It is extremely erie passing someone on the street that you slept with for 3 years knowing that they know everything about you but you really know nothing about them.
Dan, this is not about relying on another for your happiness. This is about being able to trust your reality and to know that the life you are living is what you think it is. I can be happy being single or in a relationship, but I need to know what it is that I am in. I would imagine that you are no different.
This is about being able to trust your reality and to know that the life you are living is what you think it is.
I couldn’t agree with you more. The only way you can trust your reality is if you own it as yours, including the thoughts you believe about someone else’s identity. Using your example, you believe your partner is not the type to enjoy “deviant sex” (revealing choice of words there) with multiple sex partners, then you find out otherwise, then you feel devastated. What if you didn’t have that belief about your partner? What if you owned your expression of love, so that you could feel free to give it, without requiring that your partner live up to your idealistic fantasies about who he is and is not supposed to be? Or barring that, what if you left your partner in peace, knowing full well that your story about who he was was just that, your story? Why not admit that it is your story you actually want and not a real person?
It is like experiencing a death, only you don't even know what died.
Yes you do. You know exactly what died, although you might be loathe to admit it to yourself. What died are your fairytales about love.
It was his fantasy that died, not mine. He created, presented it and made it real to me and others.
This is where you fail young padawan. Just because someone tells you something does not mean you have to believe it. And as long as you believe otherwise, as long as you believe that someone else is responsible for your internal reality, you remain vulnerable. The right someone can easily gain power over you.
Dan, this is not about relying on another for your happiness.
Isn’t it though? Isn’t that exactly what your fantasy entails?
I would imagine that you are no different.
You imagine incorrectly. I am not laboring under any delusions that involve needing people to always be honest with me or else the relationship is off. I expect people to be what they mostly are: selfish, self deluded and blind. Of course, there are notable exceptions, but I have come across no reason to believe in other people’s so called nobility.
Oh, and I forgot to comment on my supposed inability to fail to take the empath’s emotional depth into account, hence my “simplistic thinking”. I grok that most people feel a great deal than I do. That means nothing though. What I am saying is still on the money. It’s just harder for normal folk to manage their feelings because they have so many of them for one thing. The other thing is most people haven’t availed themselves of techniques that could help them gain greater self control over their emotional world. They are slaves to their feelings, plain and simple, which makes it laughably simple to push and pull them hither and yon.
Your way of thinking is new to me. I have not been in a relationship since my last one so I cannot practice a new approach, but, I suppose I could try it with friends, family etc. I just don't know how to get myself to not care about what people think. For example, right now a girlfriend is mad at me for something but I do not know what. There must have been some kind of misunderstanding within our communication. Anyway, she has simply stopped talking to me. We live 500 miles away from each other but we have recently needed to email back and forth alot because I did a job for her as a favor. I emailed her asking for feedback about the job at least 3 times and have gotten no response. I spoke with her daughter on the phone and still nothing. I have been obsessing about this. The fact that she is angry with me and not telling me what I did is not only pissing me off, but, it is making me crazy. How do I say this is not my problem, mean it and go on with my life without obsessing? How do you do it? I want to not care. I want to convert to your side, Dan. Where's UK? He's usually really good with this stuff too. Zan
UK is indeed better at “reading” people online than I am, especially women, I’ve noticed. Him and his queen are probably out and about, painting the town blood red or fucking each other or other people or something fun like that.
How do you do it?
It helps that I don’t have overwhelming or strong emotions to contend with. I concede that having lots of feelings might make my suggestions seem harder to carry out. I don’t know how much you have read about various schools of psychological theory, but I would start with Googling cognitive behavioral techniques if I were you. Question your thinking. Just because a thought is in your mind does not mean you have to focus on it or believe it. Go to war with your own mind if you have to.
Be the cause of your experience, not the effect. Taking responsibility for your experience of life is always the first and most important step. Examining how your own mind works is the next step. For example, notice when you start focusing on obsessive thoughts and interrupt the pattern immediately. And so on. Yeah, I know that is not very detailed, but you’re a smart cookie. You get the gist.
2, why does the real picture matter? You're kidding me, right? Are you actually suggesting that someone consider some bullshit facade sufficient to plan their own life around? I don't give a fuck about people's facades. All I care about is the "real picture," because that's the only thing worth a damn when you're planning how to go about your daily affairs with people. Jesus Christ that was one of the dumbest questions you've ever asked.
As for Dan, what's with all this blame/fault bullshit and trying to put it all off on the victim? Victims don't consciously seek out what sociopaths consciously do to them. There's obviously never any single source of fault, but the sociopath takes the lionshare in these situations. What you're saying isn't much different from saying that my buddy who died from a bullet tearing through his heart was at fault for his own death. He should've taken a fucking bullet proof vest with him to the grocery store, right? Alright, so there is no buddy, but you get my point.
We're all responsible for our own happiness, but that only means that we have some limited control over making sure bad things don't happen to us. It means that the only thing we CAN do to prevent bad things from happening to us is to make *reasonable* attempts to safeguard ourselves, and it means there's no use dwelling on what other people have done when we should be spending that time figuring out what we did to enable it. It doesn't mean that a bullet through our chest is our fault when some drunk asshole decided it'd be cool to kill a motherfucker at the local grocery store.
Get conned and hurt a few times? That's normal, and it's the other fucker's fault. Yours too, but he carries more blame. It's when you embark on a lifestyle of ignorance that you start to lose my sympathy.
Oh Peter, why do you always feel a need to oppose practically every opinion espoused?
You're above such attention whoring, are you not? :-(
Nonetheless, your criticism of what I said is completely off-base because you completely ignored (or simply did not read) the context in which the question was asked. It was not to apply generally, as you seem to have interpreted.
As for DB, I'm personally neutral. I don't agree or disagree with what he's said.
It seems like he's projecting his own personal view onto Zan. He's trying to make her understand, but it's a bit awkward because it's like applying a screwdriver to a bolt.
Actually, I'm inclined to agree with you, Peter, on your point about who's at fault.
You're right, 2. I didn't read the comments very well, and your response made me think of what people on this site usually mean when they ask that question.
As far as attention goes, I don't really care much for it. I tend to keep my mouth shut when I agree with people, or at least when I agree with what I've interpreted. Where's the fun in agreeing with someone? It's never interesting, almost never produces discussion worth reading or thoughts worth thinking, and even worse, it doesn't get anybody riled up. Worthless.
PP: Notice that I never used the words fault, blame or victim in my comments to Zan. Notice instead that I kept using words like responsible and ownership. From my perspective, it does not matter who is at fault or to blame. Focusing on things like that does indeed make one a victim by definition. I was, and this partly responds to 2’s comment as well, focusing instead on explaining a perspective that I find empowering, one where everyone takes responsibility for their own emotional state unconditionally. Sometimes changing your thinking in the midst of a harrowing circumstance is all you can do and I have found that in many instances, it is enough. See Victor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning” for a fleshed out explanation of this perspective. Actually Pete, I thought you would agree with the thrust of what I was saying considering your featured comments.
And back to 2, I don’t find the exchange awkward because I don’t have any expectations. I’m sharing my perspective. That’s the beginning and end of it for me. Zan either groks it or she doesn’t. Either way, I am good.
"one where everyone takes responsibility for their own emotional state unconditionally."
Other people have mentioned this to me before and I am a bit unsure how that would apply to me when someone else caused my emotional state to begin with. The fact is that when you born with emotions there is no getting away from grief. It is the most painful emotion I have yet to feel and would prefer severe physical pain over grief/mourning pain. In fact that type of pain is so painful that it actually is physical at times. How do take I responsibility for an emotion that is a built in mechanism given to us by our creator to deal with loss. So often when women experience grief related to the loss of a love, especially in circumstances that I described, people pass it off and think it is nothing when in fact it is every bit as intense (if you really loved the person) as losing a family member and maybe more because it's possible that you did not care for the family member much. People often blame the woman or man that truly was victimized by the sociopath. They think that the person did something to deserve what they got. I realize that once I am in the position to feel the pain, I am responsible for my behavior and how I get through my grief. Is there any other responsibility that you think I should be looking at here? Zan
"So true! Oh the charm, the sexiness and the charisma....how could anyone resist? Those that don't know, don't want to know. They want their fantasy to exist. They want to be able to believe in someone. They feel a strength within the socio that somehow decreases their own vulnerabilities and gives them a hero, someone for which they can pattern themselves after. They love how they feel around the socio. Whether it be friend, lover, family member, whatever the relationship, people want to believe"
Right on target Zan!
It's all to good to be true isn't it Zan?
I wasn't looking for such a person either. But when I experienced it I never wanted anything less. So now I have to regulate my expectations and believe that it's unreasonable for a man to fit me like a glove. I think that’s something he wanted to do….ruin me for future relationships. Funny tho I lied to him about how good he was with sex and I did that cause it really wasn’t a big deal. He thought he was the king of lovers..if he only knew:)
"And who is responsible for creating and perpetuating this fantasy, the liar or the believer? The believer."
Then how does one ever have a relationship based on trust? Without trust there is no relationship. If we cannot trust the person with which we enter a relationship to be authentic, then how does anyone have a relationship? Unless we catch the person in blatant lies it is often very hard to tell when we are being lied to. Maybe the answer is to not give too much of yourself away so you don't have too much to lose. I suck at that. If there is a next time, I will try not to fall in love (i suck at that too...lol)
"But still... fuck you, Daniel." LOL......just luv the way you guys and gals banter back and forth on this site!
I feel the same way Zan. I can't walk around with the thought that I can't initially trust people at least on some basic level. But I am questioning some of the relationships I have and have had...not sociopaths but liars for sure. I don't think we meet sociopaths often enough to worry or become hermits we just have to be smarter about ourselves and who we express love to.
"But still... fuck you, Daniel."
PP..you just had to through that in there..funny:)
Zantastic said: Is there any other responsibility that you think I should be looking at here?
Nope. I don’t think you should or should not do anything other than what you actually do. I don’t deal in shoulds. I prefer reality.
Zan, my perspective is born out of deep introspection and a prolonged examination of my own subjectivity. I also have a practice of what could be called self inquiry meditation, which basically boils down to questioning my beliefs relentlessly. The “truthful” ones hold up while the more fanciful ones wither under the assault. Questioning your beliefs on subjects like trust and relationships and comparing your thoughts on these subjects to what actually happens in reality is something you might consider trying. That idea is as old as Socrates. Also, the idea that one can reduce their suffering by zeroing in on the only place where they can have something like real control, within themselves, is as old as Epictetus. If you already knew that (which you might since you sound like a smart woman), I suggest you Google Socrates (inquiry) and Epictetus (responsibility) to jog your memory. And then connect what they are saying to the insights Victor Frankl gained during his Holocaust experience. I’m betting those three guys will do a way better job at explaining these concepts than I can.
Or not. You might decide that’s just too much trouble and skip it. I probably would if I were in your shoes.
And btw ladies, that was PP’s way of saying he loves me. Nohomo.
"self inquiry meditation" Dan, When you say that you practice this, what exactly does that mean? Is it a formal, philosophical way of living or is it just simply that you are always questioning things to get at the truth? Are the issues mostly earth shattering issues like is there good vs evil, the meaning of life etc or are they as simple as are there pesticides in my vegetables? Do you actually meditate? Is it something like Yoga where you have intentions? This sounds very interesting. I will Google Epictetus and Socrates. Thanks very much! Zan
Self inquiry meditation is a term I made up. It’s just me taking notice of any emotional sensations coursing thru my body at any given moment, turning inside to take notice of any thoughts also occurring and questioning those thoughts if I find the emotion stressful. If there is some insight to gain, I look for that as well. I also do Socratic dialogues on myself. (Wow, that sounded dirty.) All of that would fall under self inquiry meditation. It boils down to my own version of self awareness. Nothing formal about it. Also, the questioning covers the gamut of subjects, from my own personal peccadilloes to the “big” questions. Self honesty is my top intention. Knowing myself is my only sincere virtue.
Die, sociopath scum. Eat my shit and taste the mind-bending flavor of guilt. Give up now, while you still can, or you will enjoy my most exotic flavor: verbal diarrhea.
There was a time I was mad at DB for reasons I cannot recall. Reading him now makes me really wonder because we seem to have a lot in common in terms of our views of individual responsibility in relationships and the choice one can make in stopping and reframing self-destructive thought processes. I know DB occasionally shows up again, and I wonder if his memory serves any better than mine.
Zan talks about natural emotions hitting her and challenges the notion of preventing those. DB is not talking about preventing the emotions but instead identifying them and accepting them as reality but also releasing the thought processes that are not helping to get over the painful emotions in a healthy time frame.
About Zan's doing something for her friend and not getting any feedback and worrying about that. Why could the worry be in a situation like this? I'm just speculating here: 1. Why am I not getting the thank you I deserve given that I did a free favor? The answer: Let it go. This worry has nothing to do with your friend, it's more about your need of getting a thank you in return. 2. Is it possible that I offended her with the way I helped her? The answer: What if so? You may be suffering from deeply engrained guilt and anxiety to be overly concerned about that. If she has an issue it's her responsibility to communicate that. Release all guilt/anxious thoughts, especially after having helped someone in your mind. 3. Did she use me? The answer: Heck, you did a favor, you chose to do it, stop the who used who. Don't do something for her again if you feel used after helping people voluntarily. 4. Why am I unable to ask for a plain and loud answer for what the heck is going on with her? the answer: Yes, whay aren't you? WRite your friend a note, stating your concern, asking if your help attempt worked for her or irritated her somehow, and suggest a timeline for her answer to relieve you of your worry. At least this way you're taking your mask of 'cool' off and being honest that you're indeed slightly neurotic if not more.
And, yes, I know, Zan wrote these things years ago. So what. Old cases are just as useful to debate as the new ones, and there are lots of people who are like Zan, including me. Even DB is like Zan in his own possibly more subtle cases, the difference is he's trying to work through them, just like I am. Are you?
I am anyone I want to be, whenever it suits me. I am a chameleon, adapting to all situations and circumstances. I mirror your emotions, so as to detract from my coldness. I reflect your essence, so as to hide my own. I don't care, but I pretend that I do. Today, I am a sociopath. So be it.
I have a little story to tell about my encounter with a person who MIGHT be a sociopath. Could someone tell me if I am correct in my assesment? I used to have to drive my mom to the supermarket. She would go in to shop while I would remain outside in the car in the parking lot. One day, I noticed some commotion at the store entrence. It appears that two irate security men had removed another man from the store. The stood in front of the store to prevent the ousted man from reentering. Because I sat in my car some distance away, I had no idea what the man had done. Instead of simply leaving the store grounds, the man began pacing around the parking lot. He noticed me and strode up. "Do you have a match?" he asked. "No, I replied. "How about your car lighter?" Now, I have never smoked and I detest somoking so I never had reason to use my car lighter. "Nope, I said, I don't have one." "What is this, a custom built car?" Now, I should say that the man was normal looking. True, he had a cut-off shirt and fancy cowboy boots, but there was nothing threatening about his appearence. He spoke lucidly. Seeing he was getting no where with me, he began pacing the lot again. He asked numorious people if they had matches and was rejected by them. He "helped" a middle-aged woman load her groceries into her car trunk. In order to recieve this "help" the woman had to hand the grocery bags to him, and he placed the bags in the trunk. I could see the woman was ill- at ease. "They threw me out of the store." he told her. He removed a huge wad of bubble gum from his boot. "Fifty dollar boots ruined," he said. The woman just wanted to get away from him. All the while, the two security men were watching him from the entrence of the store. He redirected his gase at me. He begin to purposefully stride in my direction. I swear I never saw a more intense look of hatred on a person's face. Appearently, he was going to get the car lighter, and probably decorate my face with it a few times. Just as he was about to reach me, a police squad car scooted into the lot. I often have providental luck when dealing with these types of people. The store security men pointed him out to the cops. "I know you've got a match!" he exclaimed to the officers. So what do you think? Was this man a sociopath? He certainly fit all the earmarks of a "normal" appearing but overly agressive person who didn't know social limits.
He is certainly on the spectrum. Funny that he'd stick around for so long and wait for the cops. He could also be just a homeless guy who needed some caring in jail and planned the whole thing intentionally, which still puts him on the spectrum.
I've been married to a sociopath for 30 years. She has displayed behavior that I've questioned for years but never been able to place exactly what the problem was till recently. To be honest from reading most of this, some of you may think you’re a sociopath but the real deal is an evil creature.
Real sociopaths are damaged people. At some point in there lives they were damaged and the result is a bent frame. There actions border on criminal and cross the line often. There are lots of shallow people but that does not make you a sociopath. Sociopaths live a life of deception at every turn and every moment. They never ever feel real emotion or attachment as normal people do.
My wife ran over my mother’s cat in the driveway. Not only did she show no emotion on the event she to this day denies that she did it even though she was the only person that drove a car in the driveway that day.
Real sociopaths can not and will not admit to being wrong. There brain can not accept it - it's simply not possible. Normal people learn from there mistakes. Sociopaths are not capable of this. So the same things happen over and over and they have not a clue why.
It's a dysfunction and no matter how good a real one is at covering it up you can only hold that mask on for so long. Once it slips even for an instant the game is over. I feel for the real ones. There are things in life they will never ever understand or feel. To them life is just another day of what shall I do. After 30 years of being married to a very serious sociopath and finally clearly knowing what she is and calling her out on it she has decided to just move on. Normal for a sociopath since they can’t stand being exposed and lie to themselves, the most damaging trait, --- “there’s nothing wrong with me”. With her friends each time they figured her out she would just move on and not see that person any more. Once you get so old there is nothing to move on to. Sociopaths end up sooner or later alone and bitter. Many claim to be very successful but those are just stages in there life. The real answer of if you were successful or not can only be answered at the end. All the stuff in the middle is just peaks and valleys.
I am a chameleon – was one comment.
Sooner or later you too will make the mistake of trying to look like asphalt.
I am curious as to how easy it was for you to get rid of her? Or, did yu wait until she went away herself? How was your sex life with her till the end?
@ 10:01 The truth of your words resonates very deeply with me. You have my sympathy. The one spot of consolation I can offer you is that had you not been a force of love in her life for 30 years, who knows what damage to others she would have caused? You took the hit for all of those that were spared, and gave her space to turn away from evil. While no doubt quite painful for you, rest assured that those years were not given in vain. My hope is that now you find your way to peace, and true love.
I respect DB's focus on owning your experience and taking responsibility for managing your own emotional state. To me, this seems like a prerequisite for an adult relationship. He is correct in saying that it is no one's job to make you happy but your own.
His intelligence is obvious, and his reasoning is impeccable. I feel that his focus on encouraging Zan to take responsibility for her emotional state is a very prosocial/positive piece of advice. He is encouraging her to look past her sense of violation so that she can stop feeling like a victim.
That being said, I am floored by his inability to factor in the value of trust in an intimate relationship, as it relates to predictability. If you separate emotional responses to betrayal out, what you are left with is a situation where a formerly predictable person has become unpredictable.
Because western civilization places such a premium on the pair bond, those who exist as part of a long term and publicly recognized couple generally have an easier time relating to society at large because they are more likely to be viewed as "like us". There are other reasons that existing as half of a couple benefit an individual. If you have complementary skills, you can access a partner's areas of strength to supplement where you are underdeveloped. Most sociopaths seek empathic mates, and I suspect it is for this reason.
In a long term pair bond, operating with a sense of trust that the other person is acting with regard to the pair bond and not just self interest is labor saving. Anyone who has spent hours ruminating over who has the "upper hand' has just exerted an inordinate amount of energy that could've been used more productively. If both parties are capable of making an equal investment of trust in the other, then the situation is win/win.
The famous "prisoner's dilemma" does a great job of illuminating this principle with minimal words.
DB's perspective reveals his belief that there can be no such thing as a win/win relationship. By always seeking to keep the upper hand, the inevitable outcome he experiences is win/lose or lose/lose. For someone with this mindset, it is impossible to relax into the labor saving benefits of existing within a pair bond that is predicated on mutual trust. You are always waiting for the other shoe to drop, so it seems less devastating when it happens, but at the expense of never having experienced the upside of being fully invested in a carefully chosen pair bond.
DB's perspective is enormously self protective. If you have only experienced broken trust, this is a reasonable reaction. But perhaps DB's blanket assumption that no one can be trusted keeps him from exploring the degrees to which certain individuals can be expected to behave in a predictable manner.
Daniel, Thank You for your insights. I do enjoy reading your comments - I am curious and have a couple of questions though... 1) Many of the posters here freely admit to picking "victims" that they know are damaged people. They are already hindered in some emotional way & an S is able to pick up on and use that damage to create a mask that the person will positively respond to and will let down any defenses that they might have. The already hindered person would not even have a clue as to what is about to hit them or how to save themselves in the aftermath. How then is the S not more responsible? 2) After the fact, the victim (if by some chance they do find the strength/moxie/whatever to try to figure out and face what their part was in the grand scheme of the sham and learn from the experience, often have to endure the S's smear campaign. How is the S not fully accountable for the follow up behaviors that continue after the victim has surrendered? 3 An Empath goes into a relationship with the intention of sharing a mutually gratifying experience with someone. An S goes into a relationship to get what they can or because they KNOW that they can ruin that person. Does "intention" not play a part in "ownership"?
I do agree with you on taking ownership of what happens to you and how you react to it. It would be so much easier to achieve if emotions and patterns of thinking didn't sometimes get in the way. Imagine all the people living for today.:-) I would LOVE to switch places with an S and see/feel what they do and let them see/feel what I do for a day. Who would the exchange affect more? Who would then own what?
I am curious as to how easy it was for you to get rid of her? Or, did yu wait until she went away herself? How was your sex life with her till the end?
Reply
One of the basic traits is the inability to admit fault. From that she just slithered out of the situation and has nothing to do with me. When you identify “them” and pull down the mask or they expose themselves – it’s over instantly. They will have nothing to do with you from that moment on. You become a serious threat to there little world and game. They will go to any lengths to stay away from someone that has truly figured them out.
It’s honestly like the vampire and the cross behavior.
The sex life was very erratic on and off. There were times it was every few days then just stop and nothing for months. I firmly believe sex to them is just another tool in the game and has very little meaning and to them it’s purely conquest.
Not to say she was bad in bed but there was always this weird empty behavior after. Funny thing was after her mask dropped she said all kinds of lies about me. Smear tactics are the only real defense they have and if you have lots of common friends they all instantly recognize the tactics being used.
Sociopaths love the one on one situation since they can say anything after the fact and nobody can prove different. Put them in a room of 10 people and the situation is totally different and there vulnerable and if not careful will get exposed. So they play it cool in those situations. I dealt with this for a very long time. I did not know what I was dealing with and did research of all kinds to try to understand and figure it out. It was not until I read the Sociopath next door that I knew the truth. I will say if you think there is one in your life read that book. As far as the book the person that runs this site has out. Glad I didn’t spend money and got it from the library and I’m sure she also says “there’s nothing wrong with me” The most hideous part is the fact they really don’t think there is anything wrong with them but again they even lie to themselves.
Sociopaths are actually very easy to expose but you have to know the indicators and then work to box them in. Let friends know what you’re going to do before you do it. Then let the sociopath know and watch the response. If your friends are “in” on your maneuvers the results are well worth it and you expose them to all around you. They literally die inside when exposed and just like the gypsies they pack up in the night and move on.
I hardly think reading a book qualifies one to make a diagnosis, and as I recall the author's advice is NOT to confront a person one suspects of having the condition, much less rustling up the equivalent of a social lynch mob!
I'd be interested in your wife's version of the story. I realize it's very trendy these days to describe one's erstwhile lover as a 'sociopath,' but it isn't very gentlemanly of you, now is it?
I've read dozens of books trying to figure out the actual cause over the many years. Remember I’ve watched this behavior and dealt with it for 30 years. The author’s advice is from the Sociopaths perspective. That's like the cockroach screaming don't step on me I serve a purpose.
Love to let you hear the wife's perspective but you'll have to find her. She’s run off to find another victim. Real sociopaths are pure evil.
Right now this particular woman is facing charges on conversion and stealing a car and it's not a rust bucket but a Benz 600SL. I hope they find her. She deserves a nice room at the gray bar motel.
Sociopaths live in an elusion of themselves. So they think there better in all aspects but the truth is there not. They all claim to have higher IQ’s and that may be. My wife’s is 136. But the brain is not wired correctly and that makes the higher than normal IQ worthless. There actually quite dysfunctional but then there's that mask. They are masters of copying behavior patterns but they just mimic since they simply don’t understand why normal people function the way they do.
You have to hold things out at arms length sometimes to really see clearly. The book is at some points really intense but then you have to push back and understand it's from the inside perspective.
One of the biggest problems I had figuring it all out was I was too close to the situation. It was not until I started to watch at a distance that I picked up on the patterns.
I can't tell you how many of my friends would say to me - there's something not right with her. At one point the actual police came to see me and the very first words out of there mouth was "Does your wife have mental issues?" She is now referred to 10-96.
As for the so called view that sociopaths can't be helped well that's simply not true. There is therapy for the condition but its deep and tedious and getting one to face the light of day is a very daunting task but not impossible, but that goes back to there deepest fear of being discovered and to go through therapy for this condition is a mask down for life sentence. Remember they like the mask and the game.
If you apply a scale on this mental disorder of 1 to 10 the ones below 5 are more just a nuisance but get above 7 and there a real threat to every day life. Where do you think that Charlie Manson lands on that scale?
"The Prince" is a wonderful book. I recommend that everyone (regardless of how one identifies) read it again and again. It's tremendously illuminating (you'll never look at your leaders in the same light again) a work of genius.
The letter below was just given to me from this friend I have been closely associated with for some years now. I had numerous challenges in the friendship which left me drained and exhausted so I wrote a letter expressing some thoughts. In the letter I did not ask him for anything in relation to making the friendship better. This person is disordered in character but there are traits that are sociopathic. He might even be a socio based on what he revealed about himself to me over the years.
He wrote:
To be honest I don’t remember all that was said on the paper to me in writing, but however, a line that I remembered you said that, “God. He is the only one can help me.” {I said to him that only God can help in our situation.} To cut everything short it is not that I don’t appreciate you as a person or a friend. It’s just that at times I have to make my own decisions and mistakes. I can’t be always taking advice from you. How do you think am gonna make the right choice in life for myself. I have made some crucial decisions in life where I have gained knowledge from them and experience also, where they let me become as hard as stone on the outside but on the inside I am a human with feelings and emotions and they are pretty much alive. (After almost four years now, I am yet to see those feelings and emotions that are alive. He will help people in a big way. If that is referred to as feelings and emotions alive then I can’t question it.)
(This is a 28 yrs old man saying): I was young and inexperienced even up to last year. I might speak mature but a part of me was still a child and even though we have not said much to each other for the past couple of months it helped me a lot to become a man to look back at some of my relationships that broke up. I was struggling in them. Reason being. Knowing right from wrong and claiming that I am serving God and still chose to do the wrong. I was fooling myself and been a damn idiot; that was why when we spoke I said that I can no longer be fooling myself and others and play games. (The right from wrong and fooling self meant that as a church man and leader in the church he was still sexually promiscuous and toying with the head and emotions of females both in and outside of the church. He is in training to be promoted to the highest position at his church. That might have brought about some consciousness on his part.)
DC. I appreciate you as a person and a friend. Not because you never hear me say it. Also, your attributes – you did not throw them like pearls to be trampled upon like a pig; but to say that the affection you show me at times it is way too much and it makes me think different.
You are a good friend and also a good person and for me I appreciate that about you. But also, I want to say I’m sorry if I hurt you in any way that I know about. I am asking you for your pardon – and that which I know not of, I am asking you also for your forgiveness. In life we all make mistakes some we do know and just do care about, others we just didn’t see it as hurting someone. Just to say it is a part of life and we make them but DC I am simple saying thanks for your open arms in my times of need. I appreciate it and yes I appreciate you. And, also thanks for been a good or a wonderful friend or person to me when I was not to you.
'let's cut it out in good terms, stop bothering me and pushing God, I'm in the business of making money selling God. Stop acting like you're the one to give advice, I'm the one trying to make it a career for God's sake. I will make mistakes inadvertently and you must have been sort of caught in that. I am attractive and women flock to me and I decide who to touch. I don't want you to become trouble, I need you to chill out. I surely don't want you to go around and spit my shit (as you perceive) out and impact the following I'm trying to create here.'
The church he goes to is one that has little money so money is not his motive. I think status is more like it. As to the promiscuous behaviour he claimed to have given that up late last year and focusing on what is right before God - as stated in the letter. I've noticed a change in that regard. But getting women was easi breezie for him.
Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are, and those few dare not oppose themselves to the opinion of the many, who have the majesty of the state to defend them.
So true! Oh the charm, the sexiness and the charisma....how could anyone resist? Those that don't know, don't want to know. They want their fantasy to exist. They want to be able to believe in someone. They feel a strength within the socio that somehow decreases their own vulnerabilities and gives them a hero, someone for which they can pattern themselves after. They love how they feel around the socio. Whether it be friend, lover, family member, whatever the relationship, people want to believe.
ReplyDeletePeople want to believe but there a those out there that despite their desire to believe, when they realize they are being conned and the socio is a fraud, they value truth more than fantasy and will hold out for the real thing. The fraudulant behavior is so disturbing to those people that they do not care about the "many" because they are aware that if they reveal the truth, that some of the "many" will grab hold of their own strength, perspective and value for the truth and allow themselves to let go of the fantasy and be open to the clues that will eventually reveal the ugly picture that hides behind the one that glitters. The flashier the glitter, the uglier the picture.
Zan
Zan,
ReplyDeleteWhy does the real picture matter?
Think on that for a while, please.
Hi 2. How are you? I don't know about where you are, but where I am, it is a beautiful sunny day and can't wait to go out and play....lol
ReplyDeleteNow for your question. I would say that it does and it doesn't matter. It depends on the circumstances.
If you are someone that is a casual aquaintance and there is no possibility for intimate interaction then it doesn't matter unless of course the socio is considering the possibility of ripping the empath off or taking adantage in some way. Let me clarify what I mean when I say "intimacy" as it relates to relationships that are not romantic. Intimacy, in this sense is the exchange of deep honest truths that are meant to be between just 2 people. In that case it matters because one person is giving something of themself and the other is giving nothing. Anytime a person gives a part of themself, they risk that the other will take advantage or hurt them somehow. If both people are open, sharing parts of themselves , there is equal risk on both sides. For this to happen, there is usually alot of trust involved. The trust for the empath is based on false information. If the empath had the real info, they would not trust and they would not choose to reveal their truth which to most people is sacred. If the intimacy continues, it goes beyond deception. It can become like somewhat of a betrayal because one person becomes more and more invested as truths are shared and the other has no stock in any of it.
In a romantic relationship, depending on how the relationship is set up, it might not matter. The relationship that UK described that he has with his "queen" is one in which it doesn't matter and in fact the dynamics likely make the relationship stronger and more intense than the average relationship (BTW, where is UK? UK, come out, come out werever u are). To have the type of relationship that he has, it required him to have a bit of genuine intimacy which most socios are not capable of. It required, first of all that he knows himself to begin with and a willingness to trust and share with another who he really is. In that case it doesn't matter because the other person knows what they are getting themselves into and they know the risks. They give the full consent having been given the full disclosure. If a socio goes into a relationship with an empath and the empath has no clue, that to me is along the lines of rape. The emapth willingly gives their body, mind and soul to stranger all the while thinking that they know the person and are on even playing ground. The stranger (socio) gives only what they want the empath to see. In the end, the empath, if and when they find out what they have been really dealing with is devastated beyond words. Their life with this "fantasy" love was not real. They wasted their, love, energy, emotions and most importantly their prescious time on a person that was nothing more than a fraud. The pain and the punishment that results from this is far more severe than the ecstacy of the experience which is usually short lived. It's not worth the trip. It can take many years to get beyond that kind of violation. Some people that have had relationships with socios that were fraudulant go on and are unable to trust again. Many end up alone for the rest of their lives, while the socio moves on and has many more relationships. They are never alone.
In the everyday sense, relating as acquaintances, it really doesn't matter. In fact, the socio probably brings alot to the group and helps to bring out others who would normally be kind of shy. The short version of the long one is that sometimes is matters and and sometimes it doesn't. Have a great day!
Zan
Scheming is the socios #1 trait deceit hs #2 dishonest#3 fraudulent #4
DeleteZan: "Hi 2. How are you? I don't know about where you are, but where I am, it is a beautiful sunny day and can't wait to go out and play....lol"
ReplyDeleteSigh. I can't go out and play because I have no one to play with. . . :( I currently have no projects, so I'm becoming schizoidic. (Hence the apathy in my first comment.)
What I was thinking of when I wrote that question was more along the lines of how sociopaths keep up their facade. Essentially, the 'real' picture never really comes out, so it doesn't matter. Think of it a bit like this:
If it looks like a duck, pretends to be a duck, and does all the things ducks do, it might as well be a duck.
(I'm sorry that I can't really give you as much a lengthy reply as you have given me. It's part of the schizoid sinking it. ._. )
2,
ReplyDeleteI was feeling like you are last week. I was in the dumps. I had just finished the grueling project of taking down wall paper in my kitchen and painting. It was not a smooth operation since I had intended to paint over the wallpaper after sealing the seams etc. I bought the wrong kind of products. The wallpaper started coming off along with half the drywall and before you know it I was knee deep in dust, drywall and old wallpaper. I had to rebuild the walls with joint compound before I could prime and paint. I thought I was going to lose it. It looks great now. After I was done, I was so exausted that I felt like I had the flu. I also felt this kind of let down, like, OK, now my kitchen is done, what next? Now I'm working on a painting. I always need to have a project going on or else I go crazy.
Anyway, I agree with you. The duck can look and quack like a duck as long as in doing so, it does not hurt or kill off any of the other ducks. Quack, quack...lol.
Zan
Zan, I agree with your comment. It is a huge violation to enter into a relationship with someone and have that individual share there heart, mind, soul and body with with a person only to find out later that the whole thing was a complete fabrication. I can imagine that learning such information would equate to complete, utter devestation and would take an individual much time to rebuild themselves and their lives. I am speaking about longer relationships as I really don't feel that it would be necessary to share that information with someone that you are only casually dating. I am involved with someone who disclosed their sociopathic nature to me quite early (I am one of those uber-empaths), which after reading your post makes me appreciate him all the more. I realize now that by him telling me this there is a certain level of trust and respect that exists on his part towards me. In that same regard it has allowed me to understand and process my own emotions much better when it comes to him. Our relationship is not perfect but at least there is truth in it. He is not presenting himself to be something that he isn't and as a result I love him for who he is.
ReplyDeleteInteresting comments Zan. I thought I’d post a response.
ReplyDeleteFirst question: why would you want an exchange of “honest truths”? What do you hope to gain from that? On a side note, is there such a thing as a dishonest truth?
You go on to say: Anytime a person gives a part of themself, they risk that the other will take advantage or hurt them somehow. If both people are open, sharing parts of themselves , there is equal risk on both sides... It can become like somewhat of a betrayal because one person becomes more and more invested as truths are shared and the other has no stock in any of it.
You can only be hurt if you believe that your well being is dependent on someone else’s honesty. You betray yourself when you place your happiness in someone else’s hands.
If a socio goes into a relationship with an empath and the empath has no clue, that to me is along the lines of rape… In the end, the empath, if and when they find out what they have been really dealing with is devastated beyond words. Their life with this "fantasy" love was not real.
Exactly. And who is responsible for creating and perpetuating this fantasy, the liar or the believer? The believer. The believer is responsible for what he believes, for holding onto a fantasy. You don’t have to believe anything anyone says, let alone base your happiness on it.
You can never truly know everything about another person. You cannot see all of their thoughts, you cannot feel all of their feelings and you do not have the power to go back in time and view their history. It is foolish to base your good feelings on someone else’s words for those reasons alone. What’s more, to do so overlooks the true source of good feelings. Your feelings, good and bad, happen entirely within you. You create them. Always. You can, theoretically, create those good feelings whenever you want, with and without your partner.
Your well being is always your responsibility. To believe someone else has to be honest with you before you can feel good about yourself and your life is a surefire recipe for disappointment, whether you are with a sociopath or not.
I concur! The most dreadful thing one can do is be honest! There are occasions when the truth is called for, but one must learn to differentiate. Hasn't anyone heard the Depeche Mode song "Policy of Truth?"
Delete"You'd better learn your lesson well
Hide what you have to hide
And tell what you have to tell.
You'll see your problems multiply
If you continually decide
To faithfully pursue
A policy of truth."
Fred
Thanks Fred for your understanding of Rape. I am an empath and I was raped of my soul as well with native american bad medicine from a Sociopath occult user. They are very sick people and there is no hope for them sad to say. After 3 years of being poisioned with native indian medicine so that the sociopath could control, manipulate, attempted murder on me, murdering 2 indoor house cats,and 10 times more abuse where you can't get away because of the curses that this man put on me. As of today Sunday July 21,13, he is trying to extort me for $80,000.00 to take the horrific torturing curses off of me. Sociopath are sick as it it but multiply that with native medicine in the Occult. I beg God everyday to help me and to see fit if its Gods will to punish or stop him completely. I am a Christian and I never ever thought some a infected person could ever be on earth. What a rude awakening for some one who is loving and quiet. God bless all victomes
DeleteDB,
ReplyDeleteYou make good points. I enjoy reading responses such as yours because it makes my mind think in different ways. I think an individual can be hurt even if you do not base your happiness on another individual. I know I have the ability to control and manage my own emotions but that doesn't mean that I won't still experience feelings of sadness if I learn that someone that I was involved with on an intimate level was not who I thought they were. Given your unique perspective on others around you and your ability to hone in on someones true self, surely you can understand how disappointing it would be to learn that someone you thought you knew, was not who you thought they were. Empaths and others can only rely on instinct and what is provided to them in the way of information. So if a S gets very involved with empath and knowing the limitations that exist, is that not the S's responsibility?
I do understand Zan. All too well. You will of course experience emotional pain when you find out someone isn’t who you thought they were. Notice the causal links here between your pain and you discovering someone isn’t who you “knew” they were. That’s my point. You don’t “know” anyone else. You can’t. You can only have subjective beliefs about others. If you dropped beliefs like “I can ‘know’ someone else” and “my loved ones should tell me the truth as much as possible”, you wouldn’t experience a whole lot of disappointment in people.
ReplyDeleteSo if a S gets very involved with empath and knowing the limitations that exist, is that not the S's responsibility?
The S, the normal, whoever, cannot be responsible for the risks you take with your heart, nor can they be responsible for how you choose to structure your beliefs. The reality is, no one owes you a thing.
"So if a S gets very involved with empath and knowing the limitations that exist, is that not the S's responsibility?"
ReplyDeleteHi Dan,
In my view, it is if the 'S' does not reveal who he is.
I partially agree with some of the things you have said, but I feel that your thinking is very simplistic and does not take into account the dementions that exist within the empath but not the 'S'. You are an 'S', am I right, Dan? If so, you could not be expected to understand the devastation that occurs in the situation that I described in my previous post.
Yes, we are all responsible for our own happiness. If that were not the case we would make lousy partners. To put the burdon of our happiness on anyone is unfair. Our happiness needs to come from knowing ourselves well enough to feel comfortable in our own skin, knowing our strengths, limitations and the things that bring us joy.
I feel a contentment within myself. I would say that I am generally a happy person. I am a happy single person. I sometimes think I would like to have a partner but it is difficult to trust and it takes too much energy to attempt to date. I have adjusted my life to being single. I know what it is, isn't and I feel comfortable and content.
One day Mr Right appears. He meets me as a happy, complete and fulfilled person in my own right. We date, fall in love and go through the phases that 2 people go through as they settle into a relationship that feels mutually honest, loving, committed, and it is agreed that it is monogamous.
Our lives become integrated and happiness is no longer just about myself. There is a mutual concern about the other's happiness within the relationship. It does not mean that I do not still have the happiness that I came into the relationship with, but there is now a new demension of happiness. The love and happines of the relationship can be so powerful that it can threaten the core happiness of even the most emotionally healthy person.
3 years into the relationship, I learn that he has been living a double life, filled with deviant sex with multiple partners among many other things that were never revealed in the entire time I have known this individual. As far as I knew, we were a "happy family". I now need to accept that this person was not who he presented. I have to let him go.
It is like experiencing a death, only you don't even know what died. It was his fantasy that died, not mine. He created, presented it and made it real to me and others. The pain of mourning a death is hard enough but to not even know what or who you are mourning AND to know that the shell that held the fantasy is still walking around, acting like you never existed is mind blowing.
It is extremely erie passing someone on the street that you slept with for 3 years knowing that they know everything about you but you really know nothing about them.
Dan, this is not about relying on another for your happiness. This is about being able to trust your reality and to know that the life you are living is what you think it is. I can be happy being single or in a relationship, but I need to know what it is that I am in. I would imagine that you are no different.
Zan
This is about being able to trust your reality and to know that the life you are living is what you think it is.
ReplyDeleteI couldn’t agree with you more. The only way you can trust your reality is if you own it as yours, including the thoughts you believe about someone else’s identity. Using your example, you believe your partner is not the type to enjoy “deviant sex” (revealing choice of words there) with multiple sex partners, then you find out otherwise, then you feel devastated. What if you didn’t have that belief about your partner? What if you owned your expression of love, so that you could feel free to give it, without requiring that your partner live up to your idealistic fantasies about who he is and is not supposed to be? Or barring that, what if you left your partner in peace, knowing full well that your story about who he was was just that, your story? Why not admit that it is your story you actually want and not a real person?
It is like experiencing a death, only you don't even know what died.
Yes you do. You know exactly what died, although you might be loathe to admit it to yourself. What died are your fairytales about love.
It was his fantasy that died, not mine. He created, presented it and made it real to me and others.
This is where you fail young padawan. Just because someone tells you something does not mean you have to believe it. And as long as you believe otherwise, as long as you believe that someone else is responsible for your internal reality, you remain vulnerable. The right someone can easily gain power over you.
Dan, this is not about relying on another for your happiness.
Isn’t it though? Isn’t that exactly what your fantasy entails?
I would imagine that you are no different.
You imagine incorrectly. I am not laboring under any delusions that involve needing people to always be honest with me or else the relationship is off. I expect people to be what they mostly are: selfish, self deluded and blind. Of course, there are notable exceptions, but I have come across no reason to believe in other people’s so called nobility.
Oh, and I forgot to comment on my supposed inability to fail to take the empath’s emotional depth into account, hence my “simplistic thinking”. I grok that most people feel a great deal than I do. That means nothing though. What I am saying is still on the money. It’s just harder for normal folk to manage their feelings because they have so many of them for one thing. The other thing is most people haven’t availed themselves of techniques that could help them gain greater self control over their emotional world. They are slaves to their feelings, plain and simple, which makes it laughably simple to push and pull them hither and yon.
ReplyDeleteYour way of thinking is new to me. I have not been in a relationship since my last one so I cannot practice a new approach, but, I suppose I could try it with friends, family etc. I just don't know how to get myself to not care about what people think. For example, right now a girlfriend is mad at me for something but I do not know what. There must have been some kind of misunderstanding within our communication. Anyway, she has simply stopped talking to me. We live 500 miles away from each other but we have recently needed to email back and forth alot because I did a job for her as a favor. I emailed her asking for feedback about the job at least 3 times and have gotten no response. I spoke with her daughter on the phone and still nothing. I have been obsessing about this. The fact that she is angry with me and not telling me what I did is not only pissing me off, but, it is making me crazy. How do I say this is not my problem, mean it and go on with my life without obsessing? How do you do it? I want to not care. I want to convert to your side, Dan. Where's UK? He's usually really good with this stuff too.
ReplyDeleteZan
UK is indeed better at “reading” people online than I am, especially women, I’ve noticed. Him and his queen are probably out and about, painting the town blood red or fucking each other or other people or something fun like that.
ReplyDeleteHow do you do it?
It helps that I don’t have overwhelming or strong emotions to contend with. I concede that having lots of feelings might make my suggestions seem harder to carry out. I don’t know how much you have read about various schools of psychological theory, but I would start with Googling cognitive behavioral techniques if I were you. Question your thinking. Just because a thought is in your mind does not mean you have to focus on it or believe it. Go to war with your own mind if you have to.
Be the cause of your experience, not the effect. Taking responsibility for your experience of life is always the first and most important step. Examining how your own mind works is the next step. For example, notice when you start focusing on obsessive thoughts and interrupt the pattern immediately. And so on. Yeah, I know that is not very detailed, but you’re a smart cookie. You get the gist.
2, why does the real picture matter? You're kidding me, right? Are you actually suggesting that someone consider some bullshit facade sufficient to plan their own life around? I don't give a fuck about people's facades. All I care about is the "real picture," because that's the only thing worth a damn when you're planning how to go about your daily affairs with people. Jesus Christ that was one of the dumbest questions you've ever asked.
ReplyDeleteAs for Dan, what's with all this blame/fault bullshit and trying to put it all off on the victim? Victims don't consciously seek out what sociopaths consciously do to them. There's obviously never any single source of fault, but the sociopath takes the lionshare in these situations. What you're saying isn't much different from saying that my buddy who died from a bullet tearing through his heart was at fault for his own death. He should've taken a fucking bullet proof vest with him to the grocery store, right? Alright, so there is no buddy, but you get my point.
We're all responsible for our own happiness, but that only means that we have some limited control over making sure bad things don't happen to us. It means that the only thing we CAN do to prevent bad things from happening to us is to make *reasonable* attempts to safeguard ourselves, and it means there's no use dwelling on what other people have done when we should be spending that time figuring out what we did to enable it. It doesn't mean that a bullet through our chest is our fault when some drunk asshole decided it'd be cool to kill a motherfucker at the local grocery store.
Get conned and hurt a few times? That's normal, and it's the other fucker's fault. Yours too, but he carries more blame. It's when you embark on a lifestyle of ignorance that you start to lose my sympathy.
Oh Peter, why do you always feel a need to oppose practically every opinion espoused?
ReplyDeleteYou're above such attention whoring, are you not? :-(
Nonetheless, your criticism of what I said is completely off-base because you completely ignored (or simply did not read) the context in which the question was asked. It was not to apply generally, as you seem to have interpreted.
As for DB, I'm personally neutral. I don't agree or disagree with what he's said.
It seems like he's projecting his own personal view onto Zan. He's trying to make her understand, but it's a bit awkward because it's like applying a screwdriver to a bolt.
Actually, I'm inclined to agree with you, Peter, on your point about who's at fault.
Who wrote the current featured comment?
ReplyDeleteBecause it's pretty spot on as far as what I'm experiencing.
You're right, 2. I didn't read the comments very well, and your response made me think of what people on this site usually mean when they ask that question.
ReplyDeleteAs far as attention goes, I don't really care much for it. I tend to keep my mouth shut when I agree with people, or at least when I agree with what I've interpreted. Where's the fun in agreeing with someone? It's never interesting, almost never produces discussion worth reading or thoughts worth thinking, and even worse, it doesn't get anybody riled up. Worthless.
PP: Notice that I never used the words fault, blame or victim in my comments to Zan. Notice instead that I kept using words like responsible and ownership. From my perspective, it does not matter who is at fault or to blame. Focusing on things like that does indeed make one a victim by definition. I was, and this partly responds to 2’s comment as well, focusing instead on explaining a perspective that I find empowering, one where everyone takes responsibility for their own emotional state unconditionally. Sometimes changing your thinking in the midst of a harrowing circumstance is all you can do and I have found that in many instances, it is enough. See Victor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning” for a fleshed out explanation of this perspective. Actually Pete, I thought you would agree with the thrust of what I was saying considering your featured comments.
ReplyDeleteAnd back to 2, I don’t find the exchange awkward because I don’t have any expectations. I’m sharing my perspective. That’s the beginning and end of it for me. Zan either groks it or she doesn’t. Either way, I am good.
"Man's Search for Meaning", what a great book!
ReplyDelete"one where everyone takes responsibility for their own emotional state unconditionally."
Other people have mentioned this to me before and I am a bit unsure how that would apply to me when someone else caused my emotional state to begin with. The fact is that when you born with emotions there is no getting away from grief. It is the most painful emotion I have yet to feel and would prefer severe physical pain over grief/mourning pain. In fact that type of pain is so painful that it actually is physical at times. How do take I responsibility for an emotion that is a built in mechanism given to us by our creator to deal with loss. So often when women experience grief related to the loss of a love, especially in circumstances that I described, people pass it off and think it is nothing when in fact it is every bit as intense (if you really loved the person) as losing a family member and maybe more because it's possible that you did not care for the family member much. People often blame the woman or man that truly was victimized by the sociopath. They think that the person did something to deserve what they got. I realize that once I am in the position to feel the pain, I am responsible for my behavior and how I get through my grief. Is there any other responsibility that you think I should be looking at here?
Zan
"So true! Oh the charm, the sexiness and the charisma....how could anyone resist? Those that don't know, don't want to know. They want their fantasy to exist. They want to be able to believe in someone. They feel a strength within the socio that somehow decreases their own vulnerabilities and gives them a hero, someone for which they can pattern themselves after. They love how they feel around the socio. Whether it be friend, lover, family member, whatever the relationship, people want to believe"
ReplyDeleteRight on target Zan!
It's all to good to be true isn't it Zan?
I wasn't looking for such a person either. But when I experienced it I never wanted anything less. So now I have to regulate my expectations and believe that it's unreasonable for a man to fit me like a glove. I think that’s something he wanted to do….ruin me for future relationships. Funny tho I lied to him about how good he was with sex and I did that cause it really wasn’t a big deal. He thought he was the king of lovers..if he only knew:)
Grace
"Exactly. And who is responsible for creating and perpetuating this fantasy, the liar or the believer? The believer."
ReplyDeleteTo me, that sounded a bit like casting blame, but if you meant that everyone is responsible for their own well-being, then yeah, I agree with you.
But still... fuck you, Daniel.
"And who is responsible for creating and perpetuating this fantasy, the liar or the believer? The believer."
ReplyDeleteThen how does one ever have a relationship based on trust? Without trust there is no relationship. If we cannot trust the person with which we enter a relationship to be authentic, then how does anyone have a relationship? Unless we catch the person in blatant lies it is often very hard to tell when we are being lied to. Maybe the answer is to not give too much of yourself away so you don't have too much to lose. I suck at that. If there is a next time, I will try not to fall in love (i suck at that too...lol)
"But still... fuck you, Daniel."
LOL......just luv the way you guys and gals banter back and forth on this site!
Zan
I feel the same way Zan. I can't walk around with the thought that I can't initially trust people at least on some basic level. But I am questioning some of the relationships I have and have had...not sociopaths but liars for sure. I don't think we meet sociopaths often enough to worry or become hermits we just have to be smarter about ourselves and who we express love to.
ReplyDelete"But still... fuck you, Daniel."
PP..you just had to through that in there..funny:)
Grace
isn't trust something to be earned?
ReplyDeletetrust is some thing u r given for free - once
Deletewhen u break it u will have to earn it back and brother thats the tricky part
Zantastic said: Is there any other responsibility that you think I should be looking at here?
ReplyDeleteNope. I don’t think you should or should not do anything other than what you actually do. I don’t deal in shoulds. I prefer reality.
Zan, my perspective is born out of deep introspection and a prolonged examination of my own subjectivity. I also have a practice of what could be called self inquiry meditation, which basically boils down to questioning my beliefs relentlessly. The “truthful” ones hold up while the more fanciful ones wither under the assault. Questioning your beliefs on subjects like trust and relationships and comparing your thoughts on these subjects to what actually happens in reality is something you might consider trying. That idea is as old as Socrates. Also, the idea that one can reduce their suffering by zeroing in on the only place where they can have something like real control, within themselves, is as old as Epictetus. If you already knew that (which you might since you sound like a smart woman), I suggest you Google Socrates (inquiry) and Epictetus (responsibility) to jog your memory. And then connect what they are saying to the insights Victor Frankl gained during his Holocaust experience. I’m betting those three guys will do a way better job at explaining these concepts than I can.
Or not. You might decide that’s just too much trouble and skip it. I probably would if I were in your shoes.
And btw ladies, that was PP’s way of saying he loves me. Nohomo.
Birdick, youre awesome.
ReplyDeleteI scroll past everyone elses comments and just read yours.
If you are hot you would be the perfect boyfriend!
^PP confronting his sexual tension with DB.
ReplyDeleteThis place gets better everyday...
^LMAO!
ReplyDeleteDamn, foiled again.
ReplyDeleteZoe siad: "isn't trust something to be earned?"
ReplyDeleteAnd how hard is it for a sociopath to get someone to trust them.. that's their specialty right?
Grace
"self inquiry meditation"
ReplyDeleteDan,
When you say that you practice this, what exactly does that mean? Is it a formal, philosophical way of living or is it just simply that you are always questioning things to get at the truth? Are the issues mostly earth shattering issues like is there good vs evil, the meaning of life etc or are they as simple as are there pesticides in my vegetables? Do you actually meditate? Is it something like Yoga where you have intentions? This sounds very interesting. I will Google Epictetus and Socrates. Thanks very much!
Zan
Zanderful:
ReplyDeleteSelf inquiry meditation is a term I made up. It’s just me taking notice of any emotional sensations coursing thru my body at any given moment, turning inside to take notice of any thoughts also occurring and questioning those thoughts if I find the emotion stressful. If there is some insight to gain, I look for that as well. I also do Socratic dialogues on myself. (Wow, that sounded dirty.) All of that would fall under self inquiry meditation. It boils down to my own version of self awareness. Nothing formal about it. Also, the questioning covers the gamut of subjects, from my own personal peccadilloes to the “big” questions. Self honesty is my top intention. Knowing myself is my only sincere virtue.
PP:
ReplyDeleteOh, I love foiling your plots, buddy.
*zaps you with his remorse gun*
ReplyDeleteDie, sociopath scum. Eat my shit and taste the mind-bending flavor of guilt. Give up now, while you still can, or you will enjoy my most exotic flavor: verbal diarrhea.
Surrender now. This is your only warning.
Herbal diarrhea. It's good.
DeleteThere was a time I was mad at DB for reasons I cannot recall. Reading him now makes me really wonder because we seem to have a lot in common in terms of our views of individual responsibility in relationships and the choice one can make in stopping and reframing self-destructive thought processes. I know DB occasionally shows up again, and I wonder if his memory serves any better than mine.
ReplyDeleteZan talks about natural emotions hitting her and challenges the notion of preventing those. DB is not talking about preventing the emotions but instead identifying them and accepting them as reality but also releasing the thought processes that are not helping to get over the painful emotions in a healthy time frame.
About Zan's doing something for her friend and not getting any feedback and worrying about that. Why could the worry be in a situation like this? I'm just speculating here:
1. Why am I not getting the thank you I deserve given that I did a free favor? The answer: Let it go. This worry has nothing to do with your friend, it's more about your need of getting a thank you in return.
2. Is it possible that I offended her with the way I helped her? The answer: What if so? You may be suffering from deeply engrained guilt and anxiety to be overly concerned about that. If she has an issue it's her responsibility to communicate that. Release all guilt/anxious thoughts, especially after having helped someone in your mind.
3. Did she use me? The answer: Heck, you did a favor, you chose to do it, stop the who used who. Don't do something for her again if you feel used after helping people voluntarily.
4. Why am I unable to ask for a plain and loud answer for what the heck is going on with her? the answer: Yes, whay aren't you? WRite your friend a note, stating your concern, asking if your help attempt worked for her or irritated her somehow, and suggest a timeline for her answer to relieve you of your worry. At least this way you're taking your mask of 'cool' off and being honest that you're indeed slightly neurotic if not more.
And, yes, I know, Zan wrote these things years ago. So what. Old cases are just as useful to debate as the new ones, and there are lots of people who are like Zan, including me. Even DB is like Zan in his own possibly more subtle cases, the difference is he's trying to work through them, just like I am. Are you?
I am anyone I want to be, whenever it suits me. I am a chameleon, adapting to all situations and circumstances. I mirror your emotions, so as to detract from my coldness. I reflect your essence, so as to hide my own. I don't care, but I pretend that I do. Today, I am a sociopath. So be it.
ReplyDeleteI have a little story to tell about my encounter with a person who MIGHT
ReplyDeletebe a sociopath. Could someone tell me if I am correct in my assesment?
I used to have to drive my mom to the supermarket. She would go in to shop
while I would remain outside in the car in the parking lot. One day, I noticed
some commotion at the store entrence. It appears that two irate security men
had removed another man from the store. The stood in front of the store to
prevent the ousted man from reentering. Because I sat in my car some distance
away, I had no idea what the man had done.
Instead of simply leaving the store grounds, the man began pacing around
the parking lot. He noticed me and strode up.
"Do you have a match?" he asked. "No, I replied. "How about your car
lighter?" Now, I have never smoked and I detest somoking so I never had
reason to use my car lighter. "Nope, I said, I don't have one."
"What is this, a custom built car?"
Now, I should say that the man was normal looking. True, he had a cut-off
shirt and fancy cowboy boots, but there was nothing threatening about
his appearence. He spoke lucidly.
Seeing he was getting no where with me, he began pacing the lot again.
He asked numorious people if they had matches and was rejected by them.
He "helped" a middle-aged woman load her groceries into her car trunk.
In order to recieve this "help" the woman had to hand the grocery bags to
him, and he placed the bags in the trunk. I could see the woman was ill-
at ease.
"They threw me out of the store." he told her. He removed a huge wad of
bubble gum from his boot. "Fifty dollar boots ruined," he said. The
woman just wanted to get away from him. All the while, the two security
men were watching him from the entrence of the store.
He redirected his gase at me. He begin to purposefully stride in my
direction. I swear I never saw a more intense look of hatred on a person's face. Appearently, he was going to get the car lighter, and
probably decorate my face with it a few times.
Just as he was about to reach me, a police squad car scooted into the lot. I often have providental luck when dealing with these types of people. The store security men pointed him out to the cops.
"I know you've got a match!" he exclaimed to the officers.
So what do you think? Was this man a sociopath? He certainly fit all the
earmarks of a "normal" appearing but overly agressive person who didn't
know social limits.
He is certainly on the spectrum. Funny that he'd stick around for so long and wait for the cops. He could also be just a homeless guy who needed some caring in jail and planned the whole thing intentionally, which still puts him on the spectrum.
DeleteI've been married to a sociopath for 30 years. She has displayed behavior that I've questioned for years but never been able to place exactly what the problem was till recently.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest from reading most of this, some of you may think you’re a sociopath but the real deal is an evil creature.
Real sociopaths are damaged people. At some point in there lives they were damaged and the result is a bent frame.
There actions border on criminal and cross the line often.
There are lots of shallow people but that does not make you a sociopath. Sociopaths live a life of deception at every turn and every moment.
They never ever feel real emotion or attachment as normal people do.
My wife ran over my mother’s cat in the driveway. Not only did she show no emotion on the event she to this day denies that she did it even though she was the only person that drove a car in the driveway that day.
Real sociopaths can not and will not admit to being wrong.
There brain can not accept it - it's simply not possible.
Normal people learn from there mistakes. Sociopaths are not capable of this. So the same things happen over and over and they have not a clue why.
It's a dysfunction and no matter how good a real one is at covering it up you can only hold that mask on for so long. Once it slips even for an instant the game is over.
I feel for the real ones. There are things in life they will never ever understand or feel. To them life is just another day of what shall I do.
After 30 years of being married to a very serious sociopath and finally clearly knowing what she is and calling her out on it she has decided to just move on. Normal for a sociopath since they can’t stand being exposed and lie to themselves, the most damaging trait, --- “there’s nothing wrong with me”.
With her friends each time they figured her out she would just move on and not see that person any more.
Once you get so old there is nothing to move on to.
Sociopaths end up sooner or later alone and bitter.
Many claim to be very successful but those are just stages in there life.
The real answer of if you were successful or not can only be answered at the end. All the stuff in the middle is just peaks and valleys.
I am a chameleon – was one comment.
Sooner or later you too will make the mistake of trying to look like asphalt.
Thank you for sharing.
DeleteI am curious as to how easy it was for you to get rid of her? Or, did yu wait until she went away herself? How was your sex life with her till the end?
It could have been worse. She could have been a Malignant Narcissist. Far worse and more damaging.
DeleteAnonymous July 13, 2013 at 5:58 AM
DeleteHave you actually quetionned yourself and come to an answer as to why you'd stay with someone abusive for more than 30 years?
Yes it's a simple answer.
DeleteI love her very much.
It was not all bad.
Love will let you forgive many things.
@ 10:01
DeleteThe truth of your words resonates very deeply with me. You have my sympathy. The one spot of consolation I can offer you is that had you not been a force of love in her life for 30 years, who knows what damage to others she would have caused? You took the hit for all of those that were spared, and gave her space to turn away from evil. While no doubt quite painful for you, rest assured that those years were not given in vain. My hope is that now you find your way to peace, and true love.
I respect DB's focus on owning your experience and taking responsibility for managing your own emotional state. To me, this seems like a prerequisite for an adult relationship. He is correct in saying that it is no one's job to make you happy but your own.
ReplyDeleteHis intelligence is obvious, and his reasoning is impeccable. I feel that his focus on encouraging Zan to take responsibility for her emotional state is a very prosocial/positive piece of advice. He is encouraging her to look past her sense of violation so that she can stop feeling like a victim.
That being said, I am floored by his inability to factor in the value of trust in an intimate relationship, as it relates to predictability. If you separate emotional responses to betrayal out, what you are left with is a situation where a formerly predictable person has become unpredictable.
Because western civilization places such a premium on the pair bond, those who exist as part of a long term and publicly recognized couple generally have an easier time relating to society at large because they are more likely to be viewed as "like us". There are other reasons that existing as half of a couple benefit an individual. If you have complementary skills, you can access a partner's areas of strength to supplement where you are underdeveloped. Most sociopaths seek empathic mates, and I suspect it is for this reason.
In a long term pair bond, operating with a sense of trust that the other person is acting with regard to the pair bond and not just self interest is labor saving. Anyone who has spent hours ruminating over who has the "upper hand' has just exerted an inordinate amount of energy that could've been used more productively. If both parties are capable of making an equal investment of trust in the other, then the situation is win/win.
The famous "prisoner's dilemma" does a great job of illuminating this principle with minimal words.
DB's perspective reveals his belief that there can be no such thing as a win/win relationship. By always seeking to keep the upper hand, the inevitable outcome he experiences is win/lose or lose/lose. For someone with this mindset, it is impossible to relax into the labor saving benefits of existing within a pair bond that is predicated on mutual trust. You are always waiting for the other shoe to drop, so it seems less devastating when it happens, but at the expense of never having experienced the upside of being fully invested in a carefully chosen pair bond.
DB's perspective is enormously self protective. If you have only experienced broken trust, this is a reasonable reaction. But perhaps DB's blanket assumption that no one can be trusted keeps him from exploring the degrees to which certain individuals can be expected to behave in a predictable manner.
Daniel, Thank You for your insights. I do enjoy reading your comments - I am curious and have a couple of questions though...
Delete1) Many of the posters here freely admit to picking "victims" that they know are damaged people. They are already hindered in some emotional way & an S is able to pick up on and use that damage to create a mask that the person will positively respond to and will let down any defenses that they might have. The already hindered person would not even have a clue as to what is about to hit them or how to save themselves in the aftermath. How then is the S not more responsible?
2) After the fact, the victim (if by some chance they do find the strength/moxie/whatever to try to figure out and face what their part was in the grand scheme of the sham and learn from the experience, often have to endure the S's smear campaign. How is the S not fully accountable for the follow up behaviors that continue after the victim has surrendered?
3 An Empath goes into a relationship with the intention of sharing a mutually gratifying experience with someone. An S goes into a relationship to get what they can or because they KNOW that they can ruin that person. Does "intention" not play a part in "ownership"?
I do agree with you on taking ownership of what happens to you and how you react to it. It would be so much easier to achieve if emotions and patterns of thinking didn't sometimes get in the way. Imagine all the people living for today.:-)
I would LOVE to switch places with an S and see/feel what they do and let them see/feel what I do for a day. Who would the exchange affect more? Who would then own what?
i am soooo glad you wrote that mach empath.
Deletei am so confused about this lately. I wait for other shoe to drop and all the time.
Thank you for sharing.
ReplyDeleteI am curious as to how easy it was for you to get rid of her? Or, did yu wait until she went away herself? How was your sex life with her till the end?
Reply
One of the basic traits is the inability to admit fault.
From that she just slithered out of the situation and has nothing to do with me.
When you identify “them” and pull down the mask or they expose themselves – it’s over instantly.
They will have nothing to do with you from that moment on. You become a serious threat to there little world and game.
They will go to any lengths to stay away from someone that has truly figured them out.
It’s honestly like the vampire and the cross behavior.
The sex life was very erratic on and off. There were times it was every few days then just stop and nothing for months. I firmly believe sex to them is just another tool in the game and has very little meaning and to them it’s purely conquest.
Not to say she was bad in bed but there was always this weird empty behavior after.
Funny thing was after her mask dropped she said all kinds of lies about me.
Smear tactics are the only real defense they have and if you have lots of common friends they all instantly recognize the tactics being used.
Sociopaths love the one on one situation since they can say anything after the fact and nobody can prove different. Put them in a room of 10 people and the situation is totally different and there vulnerable and if not careful will get exposed.
So they play it cool in those situations.
I dealt with this for a very long time. I did not know what I was dealing with and did research of all kinds to try to understand and figure it out. It was not until I read the Sociopath next door that I knew the truth.
I will say if you think there is one in your life read that book.
As far as the book the person that runs this site has out. Glad I didn’t spend money and got it from the library and I’m sure she also says “there’s nothing wrong with me”
The most hideous part is the fact they really don’t think there is anything wrong with them but again they even lie to themselves.
Sociopaths are actually very easy to expose but you have to know the indicators and then work to box them in.
Let friends know what you’re going to do before you do it. Then let the sociopath know and watch the response. If your friends are “in” on your maneuvers the results are well worth it and you expose them to all around you. They literally die inside when exposed and just like the gypsies they pack up in the night and move on.
I hardly think reading a book qualifies one to make a diagnosis, and as I recall the author's advice is NOT to confront a person one suspects of having the condition, much less rustling up the equivalent of a social lynch mob!
DeleteI'd be interested in your wife's version of the story. I realize it's very trendy these days to describe one's erstwhile lover as a 'sociopath,' but it isn't very gentlemanly of you, now is it?
I've read dozens of books trying to figure out the actual cause over the many years. Remember I’ve watched this behavior and dealt with it for 30 years.
DeleteThe author’s advice is from the Sociopaths perspective.
That's like the cockroach screaming don't step on me I serve a purpose.
Love to let you hear the wife's perspective but you'll have to find her. She’s run off to find another victim.
Real sociopaths are pure evil.
Right now this particular woman is facing charges on conversion and stealing a car and it's not a rust bucket but a Benz 600SL.
I hope they find her. She deserves a nice room at the gray bar motel.
Sociopaths live in an elusion of themselves. So they think there better in all aspects but the truth is there not. They all claim to have higher IQ’s and that may be. My wife’s is 136. But the brain is not wired correctly and that makes the higher than normal IQ worthless.
There actually quite dysfunctional but then there's that mask. They are masters of copying behavior patterns but they just mimic since they simply don’t understand why normal people function the way they do.
You have to hold things out at arms length sometimes to really see clearly.
The book is at some points really intense but then you have to push back and understand it's from the inside perspective.
One of the biggest problems I had figuring it all out was I was too close to the situation. It was not until I started to watch at a distance that I picked up on the patterns.
I can't tell you how many of my friends would say to me - there's something not right with her. At one point the actual police came to see me and the very first words out of there mouth was "Does your wife have mental issues?"
She is now referred to 10-96.
As for the so called view that sociopaths can't be helped well that's simply not true. There is therapy for the condition but its deep and tedious and getting one to face the light of day is a very daunting task but not impossible, but that goes back to there deepest fear of being discovered and to go through therapy for this condition is a mask down for life sentence. Remember they like the mask and the game.
If you apply a scale on this mental disorder of 1 to 10 the ones below 5 are more just a nuisance but get above 7 and there a real threat to every day life.
Where do you think that Charlie Manson lands on that scale?
"The Prince" is a wonderful book. I recommend that everyone (regardless of how one identifies) read it again and again. It's tremendously illuminating (you'll never look at your leaders in the same light again) a work of genius.
ReplyDeleteFred
have they wrote a book about the prince movies ?
Deletegraffitti bridge is my favorite movie ever
Oh, I enjoy Prince very much, although I prefer Purple Rain, personally. I was referring to the book "The Prince" by Niccolo Machiavelli, however. ;)
DeleteZan. Google Byron Katie to get examples of mind enquiry. She has videos on Youtube as well.
ReplyDeleteI am a chameleon – was one comment.
ReplyDeleteSooner or later you too will make the mistake of trying to look like asphalt.
Just had a comedy moment with that thought.....very funny.
A rather interesting thread.
ReplyDeleteThe letter below was just given to me from this friend I have been closely associated with for some years now. I had numerous challenges in the friendship which left me drained and exhausted so I wrote a letter expressing some thoughts. In the letter I did not ask him for anything in relation to making the friendship better. This person is disordered in character but there are traits that are sociopathic. He might even be a socio based on what he revealed about himself to me over the years.
He wrote:
To be honest I don’t remember all that was said on the paper to me in writing, but however, a line that I remembered you said that, “God. He is the only one can help me.” {I said to him that only God can help in our situation.} To cut everything short it is not that I don’t appreciate you as a person or a friend. It’s just that at times I have to make my own decisions and mistakes. I can’t be always taking advice from you. How do you think am gonna make the right choice in life for myself. I have made some crucial decisions in life where I have gained knowledge from them and experience also, where they let me become as hard as stone on the outside but on the inside I am a human with feelings and emotions and they are pretty much alive. (After almost four years now, I am yet to see those feelings and emotions that are alive. He will help people in a big way. If that is referred to as feelings and emotions alive then I can’t question it.)
(This is a 28 yrs old man saying): I was young and inexperienced even up to last year. I might speak mature but a part of me was still a child and even though we have not said much to each other for the past couple of months it helped me a lot to become a man to look back at some of my relationships that broke up. I was struggling in them. Reason being. Knowing right from wrong and claiming that I am serving God and still chose to do the wrong. I was fooling myself and been a damn idiot; that was why when we spoke I said that I can no longer be fooling myself and others and play games. (The right from wrong and fooling self meant that as a church man and leader in the church he was still sexually promiscuous and toying with the head and emotions of females both in and outside of the church. He is in training to be promoted to the highest position at his church. That might have brought about some consciousness on his part.)
DC. I appreciate you as a person and a friend. Not because you never hear me say it. Also, your attributes – you did not throw them like pearls to be trampled upon like a pig; but to say that the affection you show me at times it is way too much and it makes me think different.
You are a good friend and also a good person and for me I appreciate that about you. But also, I want to say I’m sorry if I hurt you in any way that I know about. I am asking you for your pardon – and that which I know not of, I am asking you also for your forgiveness. In life we all make mistakes some we do know and just do care about, others we just didn’t see it as hurting someone. Just to say it is a part of life and we make them but DC I am simple saying thanks for your open arms in my times of need. I appreciate it and yes I appreciate you. And, also thanks for been a good or a wonderful friend or person to me when I was not to you.
Just to add to the immediate post above.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you able to make of his letter. Is he a broken soul trying to reach out for some sort of connection?
It is a subtle way to feel me out since I have been in "no contact" mode unless extremely necessary.
DC
I am not sure which part of no you don't see.
ReplyDeleteThe guy is saying
'let's cut it out in good terms,
stop bothering me and pushing God,
I'm in the business of making money selling God.
Stop acting like you're the one to give advice, I'm the one trying
to make it a career for God's sake.
I will make mistakes inadvertently and you must have been sort of caught in that.
I am attractive and women flock to me and I decide who to touch.
I don't want you to become trouble, I need you to chill out.
I surely don't want you to go around and spit my shit (as you perceive) out and
impact the following I'm trying to create here.'
Sceli, thank you.
ReplyDeleteThe church he goes to is one that has little money so money is not his motive. I think status is more like it. As to the promiscuous behaviour he claimed to have given that up late last year and focusing on what is right before God - as stated in the letter. I've noticed a change in that regard. But getting women was easi breezie for him.
DC