A sociopath-leaning reader asked, "How are you able to determine your true self? Your true interests, your true you and not just a collection of identities you've worn?" My answer:
Good question. I guess I don't really expect there to be some underlying true me. I am partly my experiences. I am even more so my thoughts. I see my identity as being more a formula, less the numbers that get plugged in, and especially not the result of the formula. I am the way I perceive the world, the way I choose what I decide. Does that work for you? I know it's nice to think that you are someone or something definable. I call this the Harry Potter syndrome, people who want more than anything else to have some strange white bearded old man show up to their door and say -- don't worry, there's a reason why you are different, it's because you're a wizard, and not only are you a wizard, but you're a celebrity. Don't we all wish that we had that sort of defining purpose to our life. But we don't, I'm afraid. And those people that aren't like us are largely just amalgamations themselves. Or maybe you believe this: "People often say that this or that person has not yet found himself. But the self is not something one finds, it is something one creates." Thomas Szasz
Reader's response:
I appreciate your well-reasoned response. Your example of the Harry Potter syndrome is right-on. I have always been unable to really grasp the Western culture, and especially American culture, desperate need to be succinctly defined, for their need to be truly unique, and their love of the ostentatious. For a while I thought my problem with the "masks" was that I never felt like their was a significant purpose and I have never been able to believe in a god or the other supernatural, though I did play the religious role quite well when I was a wee one.
A sociopath-leaning reader asked, "How are you able to determine your true self? Your true interests, your true you and not just a collection of identities you've worn?" My answer:
Stumbled across your blog while looking for a simple definition of "sociopath". Absolutely fascinating - I'm now busily engaged in reading the entire thing front to back.
ReplyDeleteM.E. " I call this the harry-potter syndrome, people who want more than anything else to have some strange white bearded old man show up to their door and say -- don't worry, there's a reason why you are different, it's because you're a wizard, and not only are you a wizard, but you're a celebrity. Don't we all wish that we had that sort of defining purpose to our life. But we don't, I'm afraid. And those people that aren't like us are largely just amalgamations themselves. Or maybe you believe this: "People often say that this or that person has not yet found himself. But the self is not something one finds, it is something one creates." Thomas Szasz"
ReplyDeleteI am glad M.E.'s intellectual insight is back. It was becoming vapid in here.
And see I fell Harry Potter's pain. All the struggles he goes through more than the other wizards do. He has no family but the master wizard who may save him in the end but spares him no trial.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed reading the post as well.
Grace
"Good question. I guess I don't really expect there to be some underlying true me. I am partly my experiences. I am even more so my thoughts."
ReplyDeleteGreat topic ME! The "true me", I think is a very interesting topic for everyone to consider, empaths and socios alike.
I have pondered this myself many times over my lifetime. My childhood was very traumatic and for most of it, I felt like an empty shell, trying to be the person my father wanted me to be. It was a matter of survival to be this person when I was around him for fear of being hit, slapped, kicked, hair pulled, yelled at etc. It was anyone's guess what may happen and it was usually unexpected and sudden. It could have been for something as simple as not eating over my plate. Given that I was the oldest, I was scapegoated so I got most of my father's wrath. When I was not around my father I was either angry, resentful or had no clue who I was because I was not putting on a show for my father. I would go to school and I would find people that I idealized and I would try to be like them. It never worked and I always came up short.
I broke away from my family at the age of 17. It was at that time that people started to notice me and tell me I was pretty. I was extremely shy and uncomfortable around people, especially men. I recall times when a man would come around me, lift up his hand for some reason and I would put my arm over my face as a reflex, thinking I was going to get hit.
It has taken me many years to find the "true me". I have spent much time in therapy unraveling all the layers of the onion through rivers of tears. I have missed out on alot in life. I thank god every day that I have been driven to do the work that has allowed me to find out who I really am.
For many years I would have periods where I felt absolutely numb. I would get scared and have "out of body" experiences. It was so weird. It was like I was actor on TV watching myself and all the players, not being able to really feel the things I was saying and doing. I would try to explain to my friends what I was feeling and they thought I was crazy.
Over the years, during my quest to find the "true me" I have thought so many times "I have arrived, I have finally found the true me" only to find that it was simply an epiphany and another layer off the onion.
I guess my point behind all of this is that, in my experience our personality is constantly mutating. As we go through all the different stages of our lives and are exposed to different people and environmental stimuli, we are always changing to meet the needs of ouselves in relation to our world.
What I believe doesn't change is the very core of our being. Some people are lucky enough to have been born into nurturing families with parents that were in tuned with their core and as a result were able to identify our special qualities and nuture them.
Some parents, unfortunately because of their backgrounds were not able to get in touch with their core so they were unable or incapable to provide the nurturing that allows a child to grow up feeling confident, capable and in touch with who they are. I realize that it is not totally the parents that are responsible. I can only speak for my experience. This is how I feel that it has played out in my life.
Our backgrounds are all so different and so are our journeys. As UK said in one of his posts we are always growing. I believe that for those of us who care and are interested in being aware, we are always, until the day we die, through are experiences and the changes that age brings with it, learning some new thing about our identity. That to me is what helps to enrich our life and keeps us from feeling dead.
The "true me" that exists today is very real and will still exist tomorrow but it will not be exactly the same. Can anyone relate to this at all?
Zan
I don't believe in "races"--no one should. There is more genetic variation within populations than between populations. We are 99.9% identical in our DNA. Moving on from that, racial discrimination occurs because visually, pigmentation stands out. With a combination of survival tactics and fear of anything different, which turns into judgement without education, causes prejudice and ostracism. Sociopaths are a minority. Even more so than people of color or socioreligious groups such as Mormons, the Amish, or non Judeo-Christians. 1% out of 99%. And other minorities don't have to hide as much. Their outsider status lies in their appearance. Their skin, their accent, what have you. Sociopaths are within all spectrums of color, religious groups, and socioeconomic back grounds. Yet, many of them exist within promising demographics: white, middleclass, etc. This means nothing to them. It is a societal advantage, however, they are still alone. They are still a minority. People of color are justified. Over time, we have (most of us), in our infinite wisdom, have realized people of color are the same inside, right? Well, sociopaths become themselves or are born (it's a combination) the way they are. Society doesn't accept them because we still haven't agreed that it wasn't their doing. It wasn't their intention of becoming this way. Their way of being is a threat because we make it a threat. I sympathize with them, in any way I can, because I was raised by one. Even if I hadn't been, I would still. I had a very similar upbringing to yours. I have pondered whether I am one as well. Introspection is a trait that sociopaths will be smart to utilize. If it weren't for our social contract, our laws, our standards, individuals of all kinds would be accepted. But in our times, only certain people fit the mold. Others have to fake it. Obviously. One shoe size does not fit all, so sociopaths bind their feet.
DeleteI admire your sympathy mitosis. You should share your thoughts and insight with people like John Walsh or families touched by Dennis Trader. I'm sure if only they could have more understanding the horrible unjust discrimination of socios could finally be eliminated and the whole world would join hand in hand and learn to live in peace and harmony with love!
Deletei totally feel you. there's a psychologist named michael formica who, in y opinion, puts it succinctly: in commentary on the "epic struggle between who we are and who we think we should be in relation to our world," he describes relationships as the most perilous to one's sense of self.
Deleteit seems like socios don't have this particular peril to worry about if indeed their sense of self is so fluid, but i think it still speaks to the necessity for any parent to empathize if they want to nurture whatever core character their children have. are there statistics on how many socios have children?
caseofmitosis-
Delete"I don't believe in "races"--no one should."
The evidence is in the results. To look objectively at the different races and the cultures they develop, and not see fundamental difference is wishful thinking.
Look at the various trajectories over the course of history, or even America as a microcosm, and you have to don some serious rose colored glasses to obscure glaring realities.
All people obviously have potential. Some have a higher likelihood for certain talents and certain deficiencies.
I don't see differentiating that races have unique traits any more evil than the possibility that female brains are better suited for math.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteSince the mapping of the human genome, scientists point to evidence showing that all races of people outside of Africa are virtually identical on the genetic scale save for the minute differences that give rise to differences in our DNA. This is counter-intuitive to what we assume; that our appearances will be evidence of marked differences in our gene pool.
DeleteThe group of humans that do have a greater difference in genetic makeup are also said to be found in Africa. They are the descendants of those who never left the continent.
Nowadays, psychologists believe that behaviour is culturally specific and transcends conventional racial lines.
Are female brains more suited for math? Or is it that current methods of education favour one type of "brain wiring" over others?
Oh does anyone know if there was some technical anomaly that caused the comment dates to go through a time-warp?
I suspect certain sociopaths, sociopaths more heavily influenced by their environment and relationships, never developed a solid sense of self, because they weren't encouraged and supported to...
ReplyDeleteI also wonder why, if it's environment related (a case of arrested development) why there is not a successful cure for this personality disorder.
Because there is no way to undo the pervasive damage that was done to us on a regular basis. Sociopaths aren't monsters by default, we're made this way. The shit I had to go through in my childhood forever broke that part of me that longed for human connection, and I honestly don't know if there is anything at all that could undo that damage, or if I'd even invest the time and energy into pursuing it.
DeleteI don't know if I even miss missing people anymore.
I am a socio, raised by a BPD mother. Almost my entire childhood is completely blacked out, but I do have a few sparse memories. I loved to tie up cats and watch them strangle themselves. Although I also had to take the wrath of an abusive parent, I know I was born a sociopath. It's in my blood. It is one of the few things I can physically FEEL. When I run, or fuck, or kill an animal, I can feel a faint animal instinct, a very dark one. A true sociopath can usually be proven by ones brain chemistry.
DeleteI liked your animal instinct comment. It hit home.
DeleteSomething I struggle with is that I can be so deeply moved by music or even simple colors when the mood strikes, but stereotypically, deep emotional connections to other people simply seem... not difficult, just unimportant.
For the record, I had loving, stable, normal parents. They can not comprehend me at all, though they don't know to what extent. And in that, I see my relation to the rest of the "normal" world.
"Sociopaths aren't monsters by default, we're made this way."
DeleteBut plenty are supposedly born that way, not made.
You can't cure someone who isn't ill.
ReplyDeleteI agree UK. If sociopathology and NPD are conditions where a person is "hardwired" so to speak and it is permanent as most of the scientific community has determined it to be, then it stands alone and is what it is. How a person got that way by the time they are there is irrelevant to them because they are what they are and they have to live out the rest of their lives. It is relevant to other potential sociopaths that have not yet been born because it is preferable that they are not born or created that way (whatever came first) because to be anything that is in the minority is a bitch.
ReplyDeleteRather than deeming sociopaths/NPD's to be "personality disordered", sociopathic etc, it should be identified for what it is. Unfortunately, regardless of the name we give it, because the lower functioning sociopaths which do cause destruction, whatever name it is given, it will take on the same meaning. If the higher levels and lower levels could be designated by different names then that would still be a problem because again, that would be labeling a permanent condition in a negative way.
I believe, UK, that there is a valid point that you are making in that if you are hardwired to be what you are then that does not make you "ill" because there is no treatment. I don't believe that can really say it is "disordered" because to you, your life is "ordered". Who am I or anyone else to judge that you are disordered because you don't live like me or them. Now if you break the law and it results in harm to another then that changes things in my view. To me that is disordered and it is a problem because it affects others.
The fact is, though, there is a substantial difference between a sociopath and an empath. So, my question to any sociopath, whoever may be interested, is, how do we live with the difference? Will there come a day when a sociopath will be able to identify themselves as a sociopath and be accepted for it?
Think about the the world of homosexuality and all they have had to go through to be accepted. At one time, people thought they were "ill" too. Now, although there is much igonorance left, homosexuality is rather accepted considering what it once was. Do you think it is possible for sociopathology to be accepted in much the same way?
Zan
Harry Potter Syndrome... well-said, M.E. Just another convenient label for disenfranchised teenagers to take on to explain away their weaknesses. Hope their Dumbledore doesn't take too long... wouldn't want to get held back a year.
ReplyDeleteOn an unrelated note... Birdick, if you see this: I've been reading some of your old comments, and it's made me think that our worldview is more similar than I initially imagined.
ReplyDeleteZan I don't feel sociopaths aren't accepted. The vast majority of people not only do not know what a sociopath is, but generally flock to them. I haven't met a lonely sociopath. Society rejects the sociopath description in the DSMIV, but do you think anyone reads it? If they fool therapists with PHDs, would the vast majority of society know how that person really thinks? TV portrayals of sociopaths: Tony Soprano (The Sopranos), Dexter Morgan (Dexter), half the main charcters of The Wire, or even Don Draper (Mad Men) are cheered by empathic people all over. In these shows they plainly show the audience that the character is not only a sociopath, but criminal masterminds living double lives.
ReplyDeleteI think people get tired of hearing everyones emotional tirades and being the shoulder to cry on. They need someone who's rational, but carefree once in a while. In a society that pushes out the victim role on a constant basis its good to be a perpatrator. Everyone has quietly cheered the bad guy at least once in life.
I think zen was talking about the general sence, how when we hear the word "sociopath" we associate it with something negative. Because i do agree with you, most people don't know who socios are.
DeleteI see Don Draper as the definition of a successful man, much less sociopath. He is creative, gets what he wants, is a leader, gets the girl. He also has a strong sense of loyalty (outside of sexual matters) and paternity (I don't think this is improbable for a sociopath). His detachment makes him bulletproof. Not that he doesn't have flaws and can't be broken. He is human and age and alcoholism have their predictable effects. It is obvious why even the people that hate him, admire him. How could you not want to be that.
DeleteI've never cheered for the bad guy, the caring ones have more chops.
Deletein relation to what anon said about
ReplyDeletepeople breaking the law and harming others,what can any socio/psycho do if indeed finding their truth reavels that their true self could lead them to break the law and harm others??
the conflict is huge here so any feed back could be hopefully beneficial to a lot of people
Self control.
DeleteIt was in some movie that a father in law (Dennis Quaid I think} is queried by his soon to be son in law about how to be loyal. The simple answer was "Keep your dick in your pants".
First, If you feel a deep hunger to do the things that would get you into trouble, keep yourself out of situations that would facilitate it. A fat ass should stay away from buffets. The same would be said for keeping company with people that you full well know would make a susceptible target for you. Cultivating a relationship with a weak willed, easily manipulated person will simply prove too tempting to not indulge your darker purposes.
This can lead to a solitary existence, so that may be something you need to find ways to enjoy.
Second, find ways to occupy your mind with other things. Seemingly stupid things like absorbing, time wasting video games can go a long way to satisfy the need for stimulation typical in psychopaths. It will keep you interested and tire your mind.
Third, focus on developing yourself for the better. Seizing self control can be a source of great pride. It can become it's own life's mission. Knowing that you have mastery over your urges can be as satisfying as the urges themselves and ultimately much more rewarding.
Start with your body. Perfect it. Punish it with discipline and watch it reward you with an elevated happiness and improved self image. This can in turn make your interactions with the world much more positive. It will likely change your body chemistry which will affect your mental state greatly. Cliche but, healthy mind healthy body do go hand in hand. I also find the paleo diet effective for this purpose.
Changing to that way of eating, exercise, and a proper sleep schedule will help far more than you realize. Serotonin is a hell of a drug ;)
Without going into personal history, I'll simply say that these are things that I find effective.
"The vast majority of people not only do not know what a sociopath is, but generally flock to them"
ReplyDeleteThe reason people may flock to sociopaths is because they do not know anything about sociopathology. Most people do not come from the same point of reference as a sociopath so they do not have a clue regarding what level of deceipt and manipulation they are dealing with. They also have no concept that the "feel good" situation that they are in is one sided and will quickly turn on them like a double edged sword. It is only after they realize that they have been duped (if they ever realize this) that the rejection of the sociopath happens. By that point the sociopath is long gone and most often misses out on the aftermath thus leaving you with a feeling of acceptance.
"Society rejects the sociopath description in the DSMIV, but do you think anyone reads it?"
I don't think that the DSMIV is mainstream but there is significantly more awareness by the general population of sociopathology. This awareness will catch on like wildfire. I don't know that the awareness will change anything because as the times change so will the sociopath to accomadate for the times.
"TV portrayals of sociopaths: Tony Soprano (The Sopranos), Dexter Morgan (Dexter), half the main charcters of The Wire, or even Don Draper (Mad Men) are cheered by empathic people all over. In these shows they plainly show the audience that the character is not only a sociopath, but criminal masterminds living double lives."
People are fascinated with the darkness of life but it doesn't mean that they live in the dark. It is your arrogance that assumes that because people enjoy the entertainment value that a sociopath offers (and let me tell you, it is rather entertaining)that they are either living vicariously through you or actually live a life with a hidden value system that measures down to yours.
"I think people get tired of hearing everyones emotional tirades"
People are tired of emotional tirades because they are tired. It has nothing to do with the fact that they do not empathize with the pain of others or that they in some strange way are siding with the sociopaths. Watching the shows you mentioned is a great escape and nothing more. It is shere entertainment which they cannot relate to because if they could, they would not be watching it. People who are tired do not want to watch something that is going suck the last little bit of energy out of them that they have left.
"In a society that pushes out the victim role on a constant basis its good to be a perpatrator."
There can be no victim if there is no perpetrator. Personally, I'd be the perpetrator too! I'm sure that as a perpetrator it would get a bit tiring having to hear all about the victim's whoas when no one is paying attention to the dynamite job done by the perpetrator in creating a victim from a previously healthy, happy human being. Yes, I guess it would be so tiring never getting credit for the perfect con job.
"Everyone has quietly cheered the bad guy at least once in life."
I think the word here is "quietly". If it is so quiet then how do you hear the cheering? It is your arrogance and denial that keeps you believing that somehow your deeds outweigh the sadness and despair that you bestow on your victims. You are not for a second the hero. It is the victim who has had to little by little, piece by piece climb themselves out of the big fat hole that you created for them to step into. When the victim gets out of that hole, realizing who created it and makes a choice to move on with their life, stronger and better for having been in the hole, that is a hero. People are tired of hearing about the holes created by people like you that cause others to fall. Do not fool yourself for a second. You are not a hero. You are the byproduct from which a hero is made.
Zan
Where you say victim, I could substitute loser.
DeleteLife has winners and losers. Success and failure.
It has not and will never be a utopian benevolent coexistence. Mankind is simply not wired for that. We compete, we strive, we kill, and we reach the stars.
To have the other, we'd have been content with grazing like cattle.
The reason these seemingly undesirable traits persist is because they are effective for survival and reproduction.
Women lust for dark triad personalities, men admire them.
All this weeping and gnashing of teeth is like listening to peasants griping under their breath about the king or gazelles bitching about lions.
Life is hard. Life is pain. Grow the fuck up.
"It has not and will never be a utopian benevolent coexistence. Mankind is simply not wired for that. We compete, we strive, we kill, and we reach the stars."
DeleteBut benevolent friendships, partnerships etc exist.
Zan:
ReplyDelete"If sociopathology and NPD are conditions where a person is "hardwired" so to speak and it is permanent as most of the scientific community has determined it to be, then it stands alone and is what it is."
Bi-polar and other mental illness likely have some hardwiring... and it would be ridiculous to think these conditions should just be accepted, as is.
Most anti-socials are poor, parasitic, and spend most of their time in jail. This maladaptive behavior should be seen as an illness... with potential solutions and cures.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteBipolar mood disorder causes significant distress to those who experience it. People seek help for this. It is a recognized mental illness that is treatable with medication.
My point in what I was saying above was that if the people who are labeled as sociopathic feel that they do not have an illness and science can at it's best say nothing more than "the damage is done, there is nothing we have to offer" then the condition becomes a permanent state of being and not an illness. It is especially not an illness if the very people affected by it are not bothered by it enough to seek treatment.
There gets to be a point where one would have to wonder who is sicker, the empath with all their anxiety disorders etc or the sociopath who lacks the ability to feel. Personally, I wonder sometimes which side of the fence I would rather be on.
Zan
I'd rather be able to feel joy, than indifference.
DeleteZan
ReplyDeletePersonally, I wonder sometimes which side of the fence I would rather be on.
Zan
I feel the same way Zan. I wish I were just normal..lol whatever that is but I know it's not a sociopath or empath. For the most part I have accepted myself. I could make changes and have but the essence of me with never change.
Don't think any sociopath wishes they were an empath. It seems to me they are ok with who they are..maybe that's an understatement..they love who they are. Hence, there is nothing wrong with them…they see no reason to change.
Grace above..uhg..i hate when I forget.
ReplyDeleteI think it's about time we discussed the Barefoot Bandit.
ReplyDeletePlenty of people cheering him on.
Zan:
ReplyDeleteMany sociopaths are unaware that there's anything wrong with them. Some are aware of their condition, but do not seek treatment - some do, with poor results. There are no current successful treatments for ASPD.
I think it's premature to assume that sociopaths are not bothered enough to seek treatment. Perhaps if they were offered desirable alternatives - they would. Perhaps, better education with earlier identification of this personality disorder would also have some effect.
It seems to me, treatments are worth persuing for both "anxiety ridden" empaths, and apathetic sociopaths... seeing as this would just increase options for both society and the ill, alike.
"There gets to be a point where one would have to wonder who is sicker, the empath with all their anxiety disorders etc or the sociopath who lacks the ability to feel. Personally, I wonder sometimes which side of the fence I would rather be on."
You've created a false dichotomy there, Zan. There are more options than what you're willing to consider.
to above..
ReplyDeleteI think it's premature to assume that sociopaths are not bothered enough to seek treatment. Perhaps if they were offered desirable alternatives - they would. Perhaps, better education with earlier identification of this personality disorder would also have some effect
Grace
I share your thoughts on this, when I approached my college counselor about oh historic based loans, the negative connotation associated with socios frightened her. I had to get a new college advisor.
Deletehere's the comment..to above. I have been up all night working on school stuff..duh!!
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. But who's looking out for these kids? No one cares if a child is off on his own. There is a boy in my son's school who is not social at all. He is super smart though. His science projects and art work are displayed in the halls. No one sees him as a loner because his intelligence stands out more than anything else. It's the low functioning ones that need assistance. But still no one really cares about this…at least not enough to make a difference as a whole. It’s not like a medication is available to them. It would require WORK on the part of parents/families/teachers..It’s not like adhd.
Grace
It's much easier to give a kid a pill than a hug and reassurance.
Deletelets face it, the correct term should be Parasite, because that is actually what the vast majority of socipath's are feeding on the good will and compassionate nature of us "normals".
ReplyDeleteEmpty vessels...
Sociopath here.
DeleteI'm employed full-time and I work fucking hard. I live every moment with as much self-restraint as I can muster, to treat every filthy fucking cretin I come across with the respect they feel entitled to. I isolate myself when I'm feeling particularly predatorial or cruel. I spend so much time biting my tongue I'm surprised I haven't choked on the blood yet.
Despite my inability to form emotional connections with other human beings, I'm a much better person than 75% of the people I come across on a normal day. I am not critical or judgmental. I listen without voicing opinions or offering "advice." Unconditional acceptance. Can you say the same? Can you accept someone for who they are, all of it, without exception?
Kudos to you. If more sociopaths made similar choices, there'd certainly be more intellectual interest from the general population rather than the general negative emotional response. I've known one like you, and he'll probably do ok in life. His future wife might not even get hurt. He's really struggling to do the best he can even though I know and he knows he has no moral compass of his own.
Delete"Sociopath here."
DeleteCouldn't agree more and have posted similar.
Also, I've noticed I tend to be more Christian than most of its adherents. I find this endlessly comical as a sociopath.
I wonder what it is about being this way that makes courtesy so important. I'd love to know because one of the biggest triggers is rudeness. I mean, here is a person that can contemplate violence without being the least bit disturbed, but the thought of being impolite is reprehensible. Being polite has probably saved more people's lives throughout history than they could possibly realize.
And the importance of self mastery can not be stressed enough...
if,after someone has peeled back the layers of the onion so to speak and found their "true self"and that state could get them into trouble with the law then what are they supposed to do?? be true to yourself or what???
ReplyDeleteWhile we are on the name calling subject...empty vessels, parasites..
ReplyDeleteI add soul robbers...
You realize we feed on this name calling? It just concretes the fact that we OWN you. We've won, and tomorrow we'll win again.
DeleteA sociopath broke you heart? That's too bad. Go ahead an cry about it, I'll drink up your sadness an revel in our power over your weak little mind.
Again, winners and losers not victims. Reframe the debate and you hear the bleating of sodomized sheep lol.
DeleteI will agree on a certain aspect of the parasite view though. I do seem to feed off of the energy provided. It can be an almost vampiric effect and the person on the receiving end does seem to feel drained. I've read this mentioned as being common.
But then... you feed off of your food too. Are you vampiric to your steak? It all depends on your vantage point. If I was the cow, I'd be pissed too.
We are truly a strange species that feeds on our own. But it is stupid to think it's not a fundamental part of human nature. We just happen to live in an era where the victimized peasants can read and mass communicate. Funny when you think about it being those self same parasites that lead you there. You'd almost think they were trying to raise you, drag you kicking and screaming into some kind of existence as something other than cattle.
"You realize we feed on this name calling? It just concretes the fact that we OWN you. We've won, and tomorrow we'll win again.
DeleteA sociopath broke you heart? That's too bad. Go ahead an cry about it, I'll drink up your sadness an revel in our power over your weak little mind."
You don't win, the way you behave is weakness not strength.
Zan you are projecting again. You talk of the deeds I weigh against the sadness and despare of my victims. Which deeds and victims are you speaking of? It sounds like you speak of your own experience. Should the world be judged by your own personal bitterness?
ReplyDeleteThis world you people create for yourselves is amusing. The poor doe eyed empaths, pure of all evil of course, all walking around not knowing that sociopaths are among them in Happyland.
Ironically, in the next comment you are wishing yourself to be a sociopath. So what seperates your mischief and theirs? Capability?
You sound like your having emotional conflict. In one comment your looking for answers for society to accept the sociopath, and the next comment you rant about how terrible they are. Now your wanting to be one. How am I the one with a mental illness?
"Ironically, in the next comment you are wishing yourself to be a sociopath. So what seperates your mischief and theirs? Capability?"
DeleteDing ding ding. This man wins a prize.
UK,
ReplyDeleteI think that everything I said speaks for itself.
Zan
Indeed it does.
ReplyDeleteUKan't
ReplyDeleteYou just couldn't get by without having the last word, could ya? Now I have it...lol.
Zan
Zan I heard a song on the radio that reminded me of you so I thought I would pass the lyrics. It amused me:
ReplyDeleteJust gonna stand there and watch me burn
But that's alright because I love the way it hurts
Just gonna stand there and hear me cry
But that's alright because I love the way you lie
lady ga ga..bad romance. i think.
ReplyDeleteANON said: "While we are on the name calling subject...empty vessels, parasites..
I add soul robbers..."
yeah maybe. but not my soul! no fucking way..but he sure did try.
Grace
UKarma
ReplyDeleteAs you were thinking of me, I hope you were also thinking of yourself. What comes around goes around. Your going to burn in hell one day. Don't let your denial get the best of you, UK. Just because you enjoy inflicting pain does not mean that we all enjoy receiving it. Your talking to the wrong girl, sweetart. How does your queen feel about pain?
Zan
Is that what puts you to bed at night? The thought that he's going to burn in hell for what he did to you? The thought of everyone you have associated with his personality traits burning in hell? You are very amusing. What happened to forgiveness?
ReplyDeleteCome on now Zan. One second you're quoting me the next second you're condemning me to the abyss? You came in sociopathworld with your hate and resentment about sociopathy. A month later I see you defending their persecution. Now your condemning us to hell?
I have to ask; were you this broken before he left you or is this what he's made you into?
I got the wrong girl? I doubt that very much. If you didn't like pain you wouldn't try to get me to be hurtful. You learn from pain and nothing else. The sociopaths opposite. You put yourself through adversity. How did your father feel about your pain? You ran away from hell so that you could create your own and elect the devil. You talk of me burning after I die, well here I sit watching you burn right now. You talk about my girlfriend and pain, do you think she's suffering in this relationship? The sick thing is you would wish that upon her.
You're broken because your weak. You're attempt at empowerment on this site is a laugh. You will never be empowered. You're a slave to your past. You were broken before you even left home. It was too late.
How can you be good enough for anyone if your never good enough for yourself. Maybe you aren't good enough. You weren't good enough for your father, you weren't good enough for your friends, and you weren't good enough for your man. No wonder he left.
just awesome. it was like you were quoting my thoughts about various weepy cunts I've dealt with myself.
DeleteThey like the whip, they crave the whip, then when you tire of whipping them because they are insufferably boring... they whine about the whip.
What has two thumbs and is the polar opposite of a successful sociopath? That's your cue to gesture to yourself you deluded twat.
UK
ReplyDelete"What happened to forgiveness?
Uk your right but I would add forgetfulness to that as well.
also "You're broken because your weak."
UK the word is hurt not weak. There is a difference right? Zan is not weak. She says what she says for reasons that you cannot understand. I guess whether it is hurt/weak you see it as less than because the idea of being vulnerable repulses you and it justifies your own emotional situation as being better off. Maybe it is or maybe not. People call sociopaths here names with power to them. You’re not really powerful..not really. If it weren't for empaths you would be just another guy.
UKConfuse Grace...with all your names..lol
Grace
Amen to this.
Delete"If it weren't for empaths you would be just another guy. "
DeleteThis is where you are hugely mistaken. Subtracting you from the equation does not affect us the same way. By definition, "empaths" require the companionship of others. They are more communal animals, like monkeys. The same can not be said of a sociopath. Alone, they would just be an independent entity. Maybe down some useful resources, but self reliant.
Logistically how does that break down... if you're absent, weak willed drones are lost. In the reverse, you lose your decisive leaders and best creative thinkers. So... subtract you from the equation and you get a populace that isn't duped by the corrupt preachers and politicians because we see right through charlatans and would punish those that betray our interests severely. Not beg for more abuse and elect morons because they lie about loving Jesus and 'merica.
Ukanshit,
ReplyDeleteWhat you just did was a like a bombardment of verbal terds. Little, round, pebble-shaped verbal terds.
I personally tried to feel some hurt on Zan's behalf, and couldn't.
Not your best work, at all.
Try harder, tryhard.
*** and obviously if your lady friend isn't hurting now, she will be in the future. Once she finds out what you are.
ReplyDeleteAre you talking to me? what does all that mean? verbal terds? lol!! omg.
ReplyDeleteDid I say something you didn't like? I hope so. I don't even know who you're talking to. lol sorry.
Zan knows exactly what I am.
Thank you Grace!
ReplyDelete"What you just did was a like a bombardment of verbal terds. Little, round, pebble-shaped verbal terds."
And...thank you anonymous. I could not have said it better myself!
"What happened to forgiveness?"
I don't recall any of this conversation being about forgiveness. The personal experiences that I shared had to do with how I came to find my "true identity" as I know it today. Maybe you should read back and refresh your mind.
My conflicting feelings about sociopathology have nothing to do with how I stand as a human being and especially they do not represent any kind of weakness. In fact, it is just the opposite. It represents my strength.
My life has been severely impacted by sociopathic and or people with narcissistic personality disorder. Because these people, family members, were people that were tossed into my life, giving me no choice about the matter, I have been forced to deal with the wrath of such personalities.
When a person finds themself entangled with this type of personality, especially when you are the child of a parent, you are powerless over the person for many years. You observe them. You see the good and the evil, only when your a child you do not know it is evil, you just know that it feels scary, bad, wrong etc.
If you are lucky enough to see it for what it really is and break away like I have, that is exactly what you do. You break away and you save yourself. You choose to continue to love the person from afar for the whole person that they are despite their evil, because they did not ask for it.
I know damn well that no matter what hell I have been through on this earth, there is no hell that matches the hell of the people that I know that have to live within the skin of a sociopath/person with NPD.
Oh, I have long forgiven. THAT my "little, round, pebble-shaped terd" is why I can sit here and defend the piece of shit that you are. It is only because I know that no one would want to be born like you. I feel sorry for you just like I do my father. That is the truth of all truths.
The truth is what gives me my power. At least my power is not hedging on some half baked, twisted version of the truth or downright lies. I don't need to twist things around to be powerful like you do.
That is what is so pitiful about you. You get your power from the lies you create that are born from own denial and need for the truth to be anything but what it really is. It is because you can't face life on it's terms so you create the terms and you manipulate everyone around you to make it all suitable for you. So tell me, who is the weak one now?
Zan
Sorry I was confused who Ukanshit was. It doesn't take much!
ReplyDeleteGrace
Zan,
ReplyDeleteThat was a good post. I agree with what you say about acceptance and forgiveness (from a distance).
I hope one day soon there will be a good medication/treatment for these people. They're sick.
Thank you anonymous.
ReplyDeleteZan
You think that your unresolved conflicts are a strength? Your unresolved conflicts are the exact thing that leaves you vulnerable to pathetic people like your ex boyfriend. When you get taken advantage of by a loser what does that make you. Weak. Just like this muppet that got had by a psychic.
ReplyDeleteYou want to know your true identity? Broken. Hopeless. Bitter. Taken. Mentally ill. Low self worth. Insecure. Needing others approval. Dependent. You don't know your true self because you were so weak that your family, your peers, and your relationship molded you into this pathetic naive victim that you are today.
You said you never talked of forgiveness. I never said you did, but I figure since you believe in your god that you would practice his teachings. Tell me is your god a god of retribution or a god of forgiveness? Are you his decision maker, deciding who will burn for eternity? If people date you and you feel the outcome to be tragic than god will send them to hell? Why would anyone lie to someone who already carries such delusions of grandeur? And you call me arrogant.
You said that the hell you experienced is nothing compared to the hell inside the sociopath. I would say its pretty comparable, considering we pass that hell to people like you to live in.
You said you have long forgiven, but you are so obsessed with him. I have heard no forgiveness uttered from you. There's no reason you should practice forgiveness in my opinion. Why don't you put down your bible and the rest of your crutches and do what you feel like doing. Retribution.
You say I get my power from lies, and you get yours from the truth. I have been nothing, but honest here. Brutally honest. I told you what you needed to hear. That's why you feed me more about yourself so I can abuse you with it. Its your own twisted self therapy and don't deny it to me.
You are constantly projecting on the rest of us. Pitting one against the other. I think I have been very respectful with both empathetic people and sociopaths. Ask Grace. You on the other hand fly from one side to the other. Fanning flames, then starting fires only to jump in it yourself. How does it feel to be a martyr Zan. Do you finally feel accepted?
Zan: "You get your power from the lies you create that are born from own denial and need for the truth to be anything but what it really is. It is because you can't face life on it's terms so you create the terms and you manipulate everyone around you to make it all suitable for you."
ReplyDeleteThis is correct. Sociopaths manipulate life to their terms because they can't face life on its own terms.
Ukannotbeseriousthatheisnotuptohispar: "You think that your unresolved conflicts are a strength? Your unresolved conflicts are the exact thing that leaves you vulnerable to pathetic people like your ex boyfriend. When you get taken advantage of by a loser what does that make you. Weak. Just like this muppet that got had by a psychic."
This is also correct.
InZanity: "It is only because I know that no one would want to be born like you."
This is insane, inane, and retarded.
Wait, I sound aggressive. That's not what I'm intending. It's just, logically, a sociopath cannot even comprehend that their existence is bad. It's completely impossible in their pathology.
Ukanbeabullshitter: "That's why you feed me more about yourself so I can abuse you with it. Its your own twisted self therapy and don't deny it to me."
This is just utter bullshit.
Peter Pan (I think it's him, because of the speech patterns. But regardless, it's Anon at July 18th; 2:19PM): "What you just did was a like a bombardment of verbal terds. Little, round, pebble-shaped verbal terds.
I personally tried to feel some hurt on Zan's behalf, and couldn't.
Not your best work, at all.
Try harder, tryhard."
This is extremely correct.
IN SUMMARY: Ukan attempts to shit on Zan, because he gets his jollies off thinking he's helping someone by abusing them psychologically. Ukan fails on several different grounds of his statements, but also hits a few bullseyes. Zan also hits a few true areas, but makes an utterly retarded statement for her own self esteem.
2 we will be impressed when you stop sitting on the sidelines.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm Peter Pan? Who's next to be accused of being UKan. Maybe I'm Zan and having a conversation with myself, and that's how I get my jollies off. Wouldn't that be brilliant and sick. Psychologically abusing myself for the things others did. Maybe I'm peter pan, m.e., and Grace, making posts just so I can psychologically torment the commentors while at the same time making a outcry against sociopaths like myself. Give me something besides shots in the dark.
UK,
ReplyDeleteYou should just stop before you completely decompose and need to go by another name on this blog. Your posts are just supporting everything that I have said.
You see in me the kind of person that you look for in a target. A person that you perceive to be weak, dejected, needy and longing for adoration. Any person that expresses their feelings in an honest way is seen by you as weak.
It is because you long so badly for adoration that you seek out the "weak" because you know that is exactly what you will get. You need the weak to meet your basic needs. You hate that because that makes even the weakest of weak, stronger than you. It takes a weak, pathetic person to feed off another in order to feel good about themselves. That's why they refer to people like you as parasitic.
The thing that is the most interesting to me is how you are so able to tell me who I am when you only know what I have written here. You were able to do that after reading only a couple of my posts. The reason you were able to that is because you saw some of my vulnerability and immediately connected to it. Not only did you connect to it but you sucked it up and rolled it into one big projection of yourself.
"You want to know your true identity? Broken. Hopeless. Bitter. Taken. Mentally ill. Low self worth. Insecure. Needing others approval. Dependent."
That is you, UK, my my "little, round, pebble-shaped terd". It is because you are broken and hopeless that you need to perceive me as weak and tear me down instead of building me up like any normal, well adjusted, happy person would do if they thought I was hurting. You bask in the glow of weakness. The weaker they are the stronger you feel. That is also why they refer to people like you as vampires.
"I have been nothing, but honest here. Brutally honest"
What's really sad is your definition of "strong". To be strong you need to be brutal and honest in a way the puts a person in their place, exactly as how you see fit. You think that your honesty is so noble. Instead it is nothing more than a huge reflection of your arrogance.You believe that your "honesty", which is nothing more than an expression of your perceptions, equates to the "truth". It is a though you think your doing some kind of a good deed by spewing your garbage which I suppose is meant to enlighten the person or people for which the "brutal honesty" is meant to address.
How could you possibly know someone elses "truth" more than they do? It is impossible therefore everything that comes out of your mouth about me is merely projection of bits and pieces of yourself.
So, tell us more about yourself UK...your weak, mentally ill, suffer from delusions of grandeur. You pit people against each other, fan flames and start fires only to end up the martyr. Please tell us more.....
Zan
Hey listen guys/girls.....I want to continue this but I am at work. My break is over and I must go back to saving lives (lol). I will continue this sparring match when I get home in about 3 hours (if I don't fall asleep). Either way, I will be back!
ReplyDeleteZan
Zan you could have summed up your whole post into 'Im rubber your glue..'
ReplyDeleteYou've admitted to being these things, and now your telling me I'm what you told us you were. You are so confused.
You think sociopaths have a need for approval? Next you will say we have a thirst to help others. We are depressed and insecure with ourselves. I almost laughed. Does any of my behaviour have any hint of such a motivation?
You project your boyfriend on me. You project yourself on mankind.
I forget who said this;"That's why you feed me more about yourself so I can abuse you with it."
ReplyDeleteZan,
I have done this here before. I responded to someone named Ishtar. And all I did was give him the bullets to shoot me with. What I thought of as being honest and upfront was really me putting my feelings on the table..and he drooled over them. So whatever your points may be they skip over that and just focus on what hurts you and turn the tables around. I'm assuming this bothers you but I could be wrong and don't want to project. It's risky to even say Hi to them! I sent my ex bf a good morning text message one time and his reponse was "no it's not a good morning now that you fucking woke me up." I got the real message.
There will never be a medication developed for sociopaths. Maybe a joint might help but nothing else is out there. And even if there was how many of them would take it? none.
Grace
Amen times 109723578390485203476529034869249
DeleteCold hard reality: sociopaths don't care. When you don't care, you can do pretty much anything.
"When you don't care, you can do pretty much anything."
DeleteTrue story
I'm free in a way that you people will never understand, and it feels absolutely fantastic. I am my own man.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
How can something feel fantastic when you don't feel ....... much ?
DeleteUkan:"2 we will be impressed when you stop sitting on the sidelines.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm Peter Pan? Who's next to be accused of being UKan. Maybe I'm Zan and having a conversation with myself, and that's how I get my jollies off. Wouldn't that be brilliant and sick. Psychologically abusing myself for the things others did. Maybe I'm peter pan, m.e., and Grace, making posts just so I can psychologically torment the commentors while at the same time making a outcry against sociopaths like myself. Give me something besides shots in the dark."
Seriously?
How did you misunderstand what I wrote so badly? Not only did you go off into a pathetic tangent, but you also completely misunderstood everything I said.
The comment where I said I thought it was Peter Pan was a comment that was not posted by you. It was posted anonymously, and I figured it was probably PP due to how it was written. How does that have ANYTHING to do with you?
Not only that, but I'm sitting on the sidelines of a non-existent verbal shitfest. Zan has completely and utterly demolished your credibility, yet you persist. I find this very tarnishing on the slight respect I had for you.
I don't need the respect of some cheerleader waving their pom poms, just because they have no opinion. Do yourself a favor champ and sit this one out.
ReplyDeleteYou talk of credibility. You went from my side, to unbiased, to taking the side of some half crazed depressed victim from LoveFraud who can't get over her boyfriend. You remind me of Daft. That wanna be sociopath cheerleader that would shift sides with me and peter pan.
If Zan is your soapbox to make a stand on please proceed to make a ass out of yourself.
Ukandiet,
ReplyDeleteI think Ukan is getting lazy, and probably fat - because of his lady friend (host to a parasite).
There's no wind in his sail, anymore.
Hopefully, his girl's a sociopath too, and drops his fat ass on the curb (after she cleans his bank account).
I think he has serious issues. How can anyone even think of saying horibble things like that, even if it is on the internet. Zan took courage putting herself out there and people like UKan just disempower women trying to stand up. So what if were victims, we are also survivors. Survivors of sick schemes these Scumiopaths come up with. Zans right, in the end we win. We will be sitting with God while they burn in hell for eternity. I don't want to feel satisfaction in that, but I do.
ReplyDeleteClairissa
Sigh....yawn......I'm back. I am all cozied up in my bed and was prepared to continue sparring, but I see there is no point. Looks like I won, UKant. Thank you 2, Grace, anonymous and ? Peter Pan for being such objective and wise referee's. See UK, there truly can be fairness in the world. Oh sorry, my "doe eyes" are glimmering right now. Well, good night and sweet dreams, UK. Don't let the bed bugs bite, K? Please don't lose any sleep over your defeat. We all have bad days. Maybe you will have another chance with me sometime. Catcha on the rebound.
ReplyDeleteZan
Oh, one more thing, what will your new name be UK?
ReplyDeleteZan
Zanix, 2, and a random lovefraud religous nut are judges now on a sociopath blog? Zan when you win in the eyes of someone that actually matters you can be smug with yourself. Till then your just the one eyed king in the land of the blind.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to talk about martyrs look at the way sociopaths are. They are all about blaming others and making themself look like the victim. Someone needs to make people aware that these scumbags and low lives live among us. How many cases of violent crimes, abusive boyfriends, and rapists are we going to see.
ReplyDeleteI just read your previous post Zan and I think what happend to you was terrible. These people are animals living by instinct. I understand these monsters only too well.
I don't think it's being judgmental. Just trying to get a point of view across and in the process it gets nasty. Both sides don't really get anything accomplished. It's just a dance of frustrations. It’s a work in progress and that’s a good thing. Iv'e learned a lot about sociopaths and empaths and it's good to be exposed to that type of learning.
ReplyDeleteI’m wondering what is lovefraud? I’m thinking it’s another site that I probably need to stay away from. This site gives me enough drama and it’s all good.
Peace peeps.
Grace
Just wanted to say "hi", Clairissa. I have not seen posts from you before last night. Are you new to the 'Sociopathworld'?
ReplyDeleteSound like you have had some first hand experiences also. Thanks for your support during yesterday's sparring.
Grace,
I so agree with your post above. Even though I appeared to be fighting, it really wasn't about the "fight" for me or about winning (although I can't deny that I enjoyed winning). It was about developing an understanding. That is why I come to this blog. When someone lays into me though, I have learned how to fight for myself and I do it, but, I do in truth. That is how it remains a "work in progress" as you described above and not just some convoluted garbage that has to be sorted through and trashed.
Unfortunately if both people are not speaking from the truth and one chooses to fight dirty, that impedes any progress that can be made.
'Lovefraud' is a blog that was created by a woman that was seriously victimized by a sociopath. She married the man who then proceeded to defraud her of thousands of dollars, which I believe was her life savings.
She started the blog are a result to bring awareness to the general population about sociopathology and the dangers that some sociopaths present to others. Many women have had the same experience, so it has become very popular. Some of the sociopaths hate the blog because they are more easily identified which means they have to work that much harder to stay in the closet before acquiring whatever it is they are looking to gain from their target.
I think it is a good site, especially for women but there are men on it too. I come to this site because I would rather learn about sociopathology from the actual sociopaths then from people who claim to know about sociopaths, sharing all their whoas. 'Lovefraud' is great for people who are first in shock after having discovered that what they have been involved with is a sociopath. It makes a person feel that they are not alone.
For people like myself, who are over that phase and want to understand more about how sociopaths tick, I find this to be a great site. I want to know the good that the sociopaths bring to the world. We all know about the asshole, deviant side that many sociopaths present. It seems to me that ME is trying to make people understand that not all of them live up to the deviant reputation that 'Lovefraud' is bringing out. I want to understand the whole picture. It is probably not possible because of the degree of manipulation that is inherent in all sociopaths as I understand it, but, I would like to keep an open mind. I don't think that anyone, sociopath or not is all bad or all good.
Zan
Zan
ReplyDeleteMy ex still owes me money. I have given up on the idea that he will pay it and am forgetting about. His ex wife said she would send it but hasn't. I suspect he told her not to send it or he would get pissed off. But I could be wrong...maybe she just doesn’t have it yet. I also asked about my glasses that I lost and I thought they might be in his truck but when she asked him about it he told her..no there're not in my truck because I have cleaned it out and vacuumed it out several times TO GET RID OF HER FUCKING HAIR. I have a lot of curly hair..lol. And he told me how much he loved my hair..jerk. He's so miserable! I think the socios on this site would make mince meant out of him..they would be embarrassed for their own kind.
Grace.
" I think the socios on this site would make mince meant out of him..they would be embarrassed for their own kind. "
DeleteDo you think they'd even care ?
Rhetorical question
Zan,
ReplyDelete"I want to understand the whole picture. It is probably not possible because of the degree of manipulation that is inherent in all sociopaths as I understand it, but, I would like to keep an open mind. I don't think that anyone, sociopath or not is all bad or all good."
If you want to understand sociopaths, you're going to have to hold back some terms that you're using - good/bad. Reserved good and bad judgment for religous thought... and make a place for rational thought...
Sociopaths are mentally and socially ill, and to define them as "good" and "bad" makes it sound like a moral issue, rather than an issue of psychology.
Ex. It would be very inappropriate, at this time with our knowledge of the disease, to define people with bi-polar disorder as good and evil based upon their actions when manic.
Thinking of sociopaths as mentally ill, rather than being "evil" will help you towards healing faster than trying to morally redeem or condemn (even try to find a middle ground) with these kinds of people.
"Thinking of sociopaths as mentally ill, rather than being "evil" will help you towards healing faster than trying to morally redeem or condemn (even try to find a middle ground) with these kinds of people"
ReplyDeleteThanks anonymous, you are probably right.
Zan
Thinking of sociopaths as mentally ill, rather than being "evil" will help you towards healing faster than trying to morally redeem or condemn (even try to find a middle ground) with these kinds of people
ReplyDeleteThis begs the question of what constitutes as being mentally "ill". Atypical, perhaps, but "ill"?
Psychological labels have just as many far reaching consequences as moral labels. Illness suggests that the host requires treatment. After all, no one wants to be ill. On the other hand, many people who are classified as such by society do not consider themselves to be. How can anyone be sure either is correct?
flyonthewall,
ReplyDelete"This begs the question of what constitutes as being mentally "ill". Atypical, perhaps, but "ill"?"
No. "Ill" is the appropriate word for anyone who victimizes; abuses, murders, rapes with free-will, recognizing the outcome of action, and proceeds to exploit...
Lastly, being - incapable - of feeling empathy.
That is "ill".
The only question is to what greater and lesser extent...
This is not a philosophical debate of normal, typical vs. abnormal, atypical, and I am strongly suspicious of the mental health of anyone who wants to defend (and open discussion on) anti-social personality disorder, in that manner.
Sorry guys, wasn't me.
ReplyDeleteFor anonymous
ReplyDelete"I am strongly suspicious of the mental health of anyone who wants to defend (and open discussion on) anti-social personality disorder, in that manner."
What are you suspicious of? Are you implying that Zan is mentally ill because she has attempted on this site to define something that has affected her her whole life? It seems rather obvious to me why a person in her situation would want to gain a better understanding of sociopathology. If your going to be suspicious about her than I would guess that your mental health could be questioned also just simply because you are on this site. Who is anyone here to question the mental health of anyone. People's reasons for engaging in discussion about this topic are their own business. I personally find the discussion quite interesting and enlightening given that there is so little information provided to the general public about this topic.
No. "Ill" is the appropriate word for anyone who victimizes... recognizing the outcome of action, and proceeds to exploit...
ReplyDeleteYou have just described the majority of the population, as well as the behaviours of most of not all State governments. Of course, that doesn't mean that their actions are justified, but simply that this is how things have been and will continue to be. Either live life in fear and bitterness, or learn to adapt and thrive.
Let he who has no sin cast the first stone, though I can bet you that you're anything but.
"What are you suspicious of? Are you implying that Zan is mentally ill because she has attempted on this site to define something that has affected her her whole life? It seems rather obvious to me why a person in her situation would want to gain a better understanding of sociopathology."
ReplyDeleteNo, I am not implying that. Huge projection, fear, coming from you with that... you completely missed the point.
I am suspicious of anyone who wants to debate sociopaths being mentally ill... to defend them as "atypical" people, rather than suffering with "illness".
flyonthewall,
ReplyDeleteyou have just misquoted me...
Quote me completely, before you go on with your strawman argument.
This is what I said:
"Ill" is the appropriate word for anyone who victimizes; abuses, murders, rapes with free-will, recognizing the outcome of action, and proceeds to exploit...
Lastly, being - incapable - of feeling empathy."
That is "ill"
But, go on with your argument, since you're on a mission. Sociopaths are mentally ill people, any way you look at it.
And, flyonthewall,
ReplyDeleteJust admit you're a sociopath. Save the effort of debate.
No one, healthy, in their right mind, would link large groups together with sociopaths, and then declare that the public should just "get used" to sociopaths, change, and learn to "adapt and survive" along side sociopaths.
Don't victimize yourself, quoting the bible, either - envoking public sympathy for people who knowingly (with enjoyment and prethought) victimize the public.
And, flyonthewall,
ReplyDeleteJust admit you're a sociopath. Save the effort of debate.
No one, healthy, in their right mind, would link large groups together with sociopaths, and then declare that the public should just "get used" to sociopaths, change, and learn to "adapt and survive" along side sociopaths.
Don't victimize yourself, quoting the bible, either - envoking public sympathy for people who knowingly (with enjoyment and prethought) victimize the public.
Anon, petty, emotionally-driven, personal attacks won't win you any more arguments than strawmen will.
ReplyDelete"Ill" is the appropriate word for anyone who victimizes; abuses, murders, rapes with free-will, recognizing the outcome of action, and proceeds to exploit...
If you're saying that a sociopath does all of these things, perhaps you ought to consider whether your own argument is a straw man. On the other hand, if you were to have used "or" instead of "and," that may have more bearing in reality.
That being said, I respect your opinion, although I disagree with it. Why don't you do yourself a favour and just calm down?
Flyonthewall,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you've been diagnosed, yet. But, let me be the one to tell you:
You're a sociopath.
I guarantee that's not an "emotionally" driven diagnosis. It's just as clear as the white text of your "opinion" on a black screen.
Clever, now you want to debate the reality of what sociopaths "do"... for a more "accurate" depiction of sociopathic behavior.
But, why waste time arguing over statistics of how many sociopaths rape, murder, steal, and victimize the public... and semantics.
And, why all the effort for you, someone who has a slippery sense of accountability?
I'd rather play chess with a friend who has a firm grasp on reality, and will concede when they've been put in checkmate.
Good luck with whatever your short-lived motivations may be. Just remember reality is only a step away... and medical intervention is your friend!
Whatever you say, Anon.
ReplyDeleteIt's clear that it's impossible to have a calm and rational discussion with you, so I will concede.
I wish you the best.
FACT sociopaths do feel one emotion and it is fear.
ReplyDeleteFACT Thier main and ultimate fear is exposure.
FACT SOCIOPATHS love recanting their lies and deciets
FACT this is their Achilles heel.
FACT all sociopaths think they are beyond reproach
FACT using the above the counter manipulation is the weapon to destroy them.
This is the way to burn a sociopath
my count is 3.
"FACT sociopaths do feel one emotion and it is fear."
DeleteWhere is this a fact ?
Why must it always be a contrast of extremes? The female empaths who put their emotions first and seem to follow their guts, and the emotionally broken sociopath with no heart like the tinman.
ReplyDeleteBoth of you look weak in your own way and you don't realize it. Giving into your emotional instincts is weak. Not having any intuition is weak.
Sociopath or empath, the majority are weak.Sociopath and empath alike should strive to do what is in their best interest, the only difference is empaths understand whats in their enlightened self interest. Zan take my advice and don't base your future on your past, learn from your past and grow stronger or be destroyed by your past and the sociopaths who poisoned your mind.
You're completely right, Anon! Perhaps you ought to write a book. Just be sure to title it "6 Steps toward Delusions of Grandeur: fully equipped with convoluted point scale to measure your inflating ego!"
ReplyDelete"Zan take my advice and don't base your future on your past, learn from your past and grow stronger or be destroyed by your past and the sociopaths who poisoned your mind."
ReplyDeleteSavagelight, I am trying very hard to rework my life so that the sociopathic influences are few. I have found that the way to do that is by understanding what I have been dealing with.
When an empath grows up with such a person, for many years there is much blame and shame. The child and often adult child buys into the bullshit that the sociopath is feeding them.
Until a person understands the motivation of the sociopath and the illness/disorder it is almost impossible to see things in an accurate way.
To move on into the future, a well adjusted person, free of the past influences, you have to be able to look back and understand that you were just an innocent child that you did nothing to deserve the abuse. You have to change the thinking that you developed over the years about yourself starting from way back when and build from there. It is very hard to rebuild history and impossible to really do it completely.
That is the weakness that I am left with, but the awareness of the weakness makes it a strength that far surpasses the weakness because there is an understanding of the sociopath, self and the dynamics between the two. This awarenss is what creates an incredibly great crap detector.
I believe that no weakness that is dealt with in the proper way remains a weakness. I also believe that to speak openly about a so called weakness means that it has been thought out and dealt with, making it a strength. We tend to hide our weaknesses in the closet. I believe that any issue or difficulty that has been adequately dealt with becomes an asset within an individual. It is just another thing that we have conquered, know about and it adds to our general intelligence as human beings. It is what makes us valuable to others and to society. The more we know and understand about ourselves as a result of our experiences and the people that have influenced us, the more we have to contribute to the world. It takes a brave, strong person to face the adversity associated with being the child/adult child of a sociopath and come to an acceptance of what it is. It can take a lifetime to put all the pieces of the puzzle together. It is much easier to bury your head in the sand. Anyone that considers any part of that as weak shold give it a try.
Zan
Anon said"FACT sociopaths do feel one emotion and it is fear.
ReplyDeleteFACT Thier main and ultimate fear is exposure.
FACT SOCIOPATHS love recanting their lies and deciets
FACT this is their Achilles heel.
FACT all sociopaths think they are beyond reproach
FACT using the above the counter manipulation is the weapon to destroy them.
This is the way to burn a sociopath
my count is 3."
I wish I could pull that off! But that would require more energy on him than myself and I've already given too much of that to him. Plus I don't think it would have an impact on him. If he's meant to learn a lesson or change himself than let the rest of world take that on. It's not my job. All the feelings I have had to face have given me enough to take care of.
Grace
Please look to the right of M.E.'s blog >>
ReplyDelete[Featured comment
Honesty with yourself is indeed the cure, and that includes realizing that you were a victim, and that although your ex was an ass, you must ultimately take responsibility for what happens in your own life. You have to be willing to face and accept the truth, no matter how painful it might be, so you can use it to make rational decisions about your future and what kind of life you want to live. Then you'll be equipped to handle encounters with sociopaths without getting burned quite so badly, if at all. All a sociopath has to do to enslave you is find out what you refuse to accept, and screw with your head and heart so that you see a connection between what you refuse to believe and what he wants to hide from you. Sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo, I'm sure, but I assure you it's very real. Think back to how you were manipulated, and I think you'll find that at the heart of every lie you should have caught, there was a link to something about yourself, or life in general, that you couldn't allow yourself to accept.]
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThat was so well said, wasn't it? That was UK who said that. It is so true!
Zan
Glad you can recognize that even people who can be assholes to you can offer something valuable to say regardless.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know UK said that comment. Cool.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read it for the first time I felt annoyed and comforted at the same time. I had to read it a few more times to accept it.
Grace.
Oh man, how did I miss all this...
ReplyDeleteYou missed out Medusa! You were too occupied with the other thread..don't worry there is more come my dear.
ReplyDeleteGrace.
i mean more to come. lol
ReplyDelete^^^LMAO! You had it right the first time Grace!
ReplyDeleteFreudian slip:)
ReplyDeleteGrace.
BEST TYPO EVER.
ReplyDeleteAnd a wonderful allegory.
I never read what I type till afterwards..doesn't that sound too familiar!!
ReplyDeleteZan, what you posted on July 16 at 10 AM sounds EXACTLY like dissociation. Dissociation is a survival mechanism that often starts early in the life of an abused child. It can run the gamut from depersonalization, derealization, body dysmorphia, and amnesia -- on one end -- to full-blown dissociative identity disorder (multiple personalities) -- on the other. All of these phenomena involve a weak sense of self.
ReplyDeleteDissociation is the mind's clever way of surviving overwhelming trauma, but after the child grows up, it becomes extremely problematic. It CAN be cured, or at least improved, though it takes time. I think you said you're in therapy. I hope your therapist understands Complex PTSD and dissociative disorders. You can learn about them by Googling around the web.
Hang in there.
"I am partly my experiences. I am even more so my thoughts. I see my identity as being more a formula, less the numbers that get plugged in, and especially not the result of the formula. I am the way I perceive the world, the way I choose what I decide".
ReplyDeleteI've never really felt any doubt about who I am. I know a lot of people who have been abused in childhood f.ex., say they lose their sense of identity. Well I was abused as a child, but I always had a very strong sense of self, even though I actually did not know who I really am (biologically speaking; I was taken from my biological parents at birth). When I read through the posts in this thread I saw several people mention "looking for true identity" and "finding oneself".
I would associate the Search for Authentic Self with The Quest for Meaning in Life, but again it doesn't fit with my own experience: I have a sense of purpose but must admit I'm not fully aware of what it is, and as such I am still searching too. But I know who I am, and I know in what direction I must go to find what I seek.
How are your experiences in this regard? Maybe some of you (who spoke of this) will elaborate?
*******
UK and Zan (who took up the better part of this thread)...
I must say I don't understand why all of you are so on UK's back. Sure, I can see his attempts to get through to Zan were clumsy - and I can understand why she had to go into a defensive position giving that she didn't see through this - but he wasn't so completely off the spot as you all seem to think.
Zan,
what one of the lastest anonymous people said is obviously true, and it is one of UK's main points as well: You will keep being hurt if you keep seeking respect and love from the people that you know can most likely only hurt you!
I will tell you what I think here (I will also apologize if you didn't want me to do this): I see you as someone who is still in love (completley like you've said yourself) with the good sides of the sociopaths you've known, and now that they're gone you are seeking up others like them in the hope of finding someone with a personality that can match your lost loved one's, but who can also respect you and love you back. This is perhaps why you are so strongly in defense towards UK, because obviously you also see (elsewhere in his posts) that he's pretty good at seeing when people are at odds with themselves, and he is also not afraid of calling it as it sees it (where others will tend to sugarcoat and sweet mouth you).
Someone who wants to know themself, and who also search for that special other one with whom they can bond truly, will gravitate towards a person who can step out of the conformist politeness, who can - with UK's words here - "be brutally honest".
Please believe me, Zan, I'm not trying to hurt you, I am really just hoping to see something "real", some progress, see you (and others, if possible) do what we all claim to be willing to do: Be honest and grow ... Yeah, and learn!
*******
finally, for our Witchfinder General ... with his 3 Counts (or was it 13?):
...GOTCHA!!!
(You, Mr., are scary ... not just to Sociopaths, but to all people!)
*******
Zhawq.
Zan,
ReplyDeleteto clarify what I said about you being in defense towards UK ... I meant that by doing this you might show him that you're not a turnover and perhaps he might begin to respect you.
I don't say you're doing this knowingly, I don't think you are. But maybe, if you think it over later ... just give it a thought?...
Good luck!... '^L^,
Zhawq.
At times I have found myself assuming 2 or 3 different identities, all of which come from a calculated format. The work to maintain these identities is almost too easy. I would compare it with living life as an actor in real word surroundings, knowing the script but never understanding the meaning behind the words.
ReplyDeleteI know this is an old post, but I don't know if anyone has touched upon this question yet: Do some, if not most, sociopathic people fear or perceive other sociopaths as threats?
ReplyDeleteI realize this question may be too general, because each individual is different. Depending on their socialization and biology, one may seek camaraderie with those categorized with them, while another will fear or be threatened. Just food for thought.
God no, I fucking long for it. I see them, every once in a while. You can always tell with the eyes. Well, you probably couldn't, but we can always pick our brethren out from the crowd.
DeleteI'd love to finally have a REAL conversation with someone. Or a friendly little competition. Not to play up the narcissistic tendencies, but I don't find my "peers" to be terribly stimulating. They're not good sport. I'd love to match wits with a REAL peer.
To frame it so that you can understand,
DeleteThis is why you see depictions of characters like Holmes and Moriarty. Both highly intelligent sociopaths.
Yeah, Moriarty could just have one of his goons put a knife in Holme's back in a crowd and "win", but where is the fun in that? Being surrounded by dullards and sycophants all.the.time., they revel in the company of their equal. And so the contest ensues, bringing out their best and establishing supremacy for the victor. In the extreme, knowing death will bring about the end of the amusement, they prolong the game.
Also, it really depends how crazy the person is. I mean... if it's a person you feel you literally can't turn your back to, not being a stupid sheep, you'll just avoid their crazy ass and not be drawn in.
Also, you can see in Watson an intelligent and capable empath. Holmes is intensely loyal and values Watson greatly even though he doesn't quite regard him as an equal. It's more like the relationship to a child you you adore who frequently surprises you with their intelligence. He will use him to his own ends, but would conceivably die to protect him as a brother also.
DeleteThis is how I view a more evolved sociopath.
"one may seek camaraderie with those categorized with them"
DeleteDo you think this is even of interest to them ?
I see their is a question about Sociopaths. Do they see normal people as threats. I believe they do, just depending on what they need from the victiom.
ReplyDeleteI doubt it, probably more like an inconvenience like a mosquito can be or a fly.
DeleteHey peeps
ReplyDeleteIm not a sociopath, but i still agree with a lot of you said about identity, being made of experience and worldview.
Its ridicolous trying to find out who you really are. Its like biting youre own teeth, or to smell youre own nose. youre just trapping youre self. who are you? youre "it"
Disagree, but identity is a large topic, where there are large differences between non-sociopaths.
DeleteFinding oneself to me is quite natural and almost the opposite of "biting youre own teeth, or to smell youre own nose", although there perhaps are hidden areas, on the whole it isn't quite such the act as you describe, at all.
I believed I was friends with a Narcissist, Sociopath. we worked for the same company. He conned me from a book games people play. It involved me in life games that goes on for then years. Over the years it tryed to change life form experiences.(IT) was envis, jelious of me. I knew nothing for all the years. Everything was a con. It left my life destroyed. It now uses me as his mask. But I know who I am. What makes people who they are, is how they feel in their soul and heart. Sociopath can't have that.
ReplyDeleteI believe that I am the person who will discover the secret to unlocking empathy in the sociopath. That's who I am.
ReplyDeleteBwahahahaha...
DeleteIt doesn't work that way unfortunately.
What you should do instead, is to educate people about the perils of trying to change other people.
If I tell you the secret is a quality blow job, will you heal me? I promise to respect you after. ;)
DeleteSeriously though, the closest approximation to genuine love that you will be able to inspire is by fully satisfying their sexual needs. You accomplish this capably, and without becoming boring or unattractive (easier said than done), and you will have ingratiated yourself in a way that will feel a lot like love. They will even genuinely value you and feel loss when you leave. That is accomplishing a Lot with a sociopath.
Never underestimate the healing power of a quality blowjob. Especially when the treatment is given regularly ;)
DeleteI'm really curious about your experiences with sociopaths now. Tell me a nice story?
This entry was posted on Wednesday, August 14, 2013, but the first comment was made at July 15, 2010 at 3:44 PM
ReplyDeleteM.E.'s just being lazy and reposting old goodies, Damaged. Nothing sinister going on here. Nothing at all.
DeleteSummer reruns I assume.
DeleteI love the vibe of superiority in this thread.
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to be a sociopath to wear a "mask of sanity." Empaths
ReplyDeletedo as well. The "true self" is not found. It is uncovered. People have
only looked for it outside of themselves when it is inside of themselves.
From childhood, we take our definations of ourselves from the "slots" we
are assigned. Like a dog trapped in a yard by electronic fencing, we accept
society's paramiters of who we are and what we "must" do. This is all
excess baggage. But we're hoodwinked into thinking that our "survival"
depends upon it. "We go along, to get along." Nobody wants to be alone
because the "reptilian" brain throws off chemicals that illicit the fight
or flight response.
It's true that our physical bodies need to be preserved and protected.
We fear death because we have to take our religious leader's words that
there is something beyond this life, and that if we are "good" little
boys and girls we will rewarded in some future Heaven. This is an un-
natural and tortureous way to live, because we put our lives on hold and
substitue artificial ideas for living experience. We wear many false masks depending on how we label ourselves, i.e. religion, occupation and
what role society expects us to play.
So we DON'T have to ADD, or find, anything that is NOT already present,
we HAVE to DISGARD the unworkable. This can only be done in self observation. There's a saying, "The unexamined life is not worth living."
And it's true. But we're so addicited to "if only" thinking we can never
uncover the REAL source of our problems which is WITHIN. So we settle for
little ego enhancing "triumpths" like activity and accqurision that only
provide temparary distractions to our chronic discontent. What's the
solution? Wake up and see how A) The world plays us, and B) how we play
ourselves. We could then see the world in a different light and instead
of fighting our "problems," disengage from and revision our "problems."
What about things like having a gun held to your head and terminal cancer? Well, there aren't answers to every problem, but we do have
varying viewpoints about what happens after death. It's just a matter of
investigating these viewpoints and seeing what rings true for you.
Moreover, since NOW is the only time anyway we should give as little
thought possible to what comes after this life. To quote a famous saying
"There is little we can do about our birth and death except enjoy the
interval."
"Like a dog trapped in a yard by electronic fencing, we acceptsociety's paramiters of who we are and what we "must" do."
DeleteNot everyone does (!)
And by that I'm not neccessarily talking about sociopaths.
Hello folks. I just stumbled upon this website and I'm happy to see that there are finally internet communities for like minded sociopaths. From a philosophical perspective, I think the idea of our "identity" does exist as a mental structure, but ultimatley does not solidly exist, at least not in an entirely non-transient state. I used to spend alot of my childhood meditating with Buddhist monks at a local monastery and one thing that they always talked about is how we don't really exist like we think we do, we simply percieve things (through our senses - touch, taste, smell, etc - although the buddhists also consider thinking to also be one of the senses). Based on our experiences and the way we perceive them, we create distinctions between ourselves and others, and since our senses are localized (modern research suggests that in addition to the brain, the central nervous system also has alot to do with the way we feel and perceive things) to our body, we perceive things from that point and simply because things are being perceieved we believe that we are a solid entity separate from everything else. Yes, we are experiencing things from the viewpoint of a physical body, but we don't really permanantly own even our body - even our body is a shell that will cotninue to whither and decay until we die, and then it will continue to decay even more (unless you get cremated or something). I'm not saying that there's literally nothing there, we may have spirits that coincide with our bodies or something, but I think our human mind is incapable of fully understanding EXACTLY 100% COMPLETELY who anybody is. Whatever or whoever any of us are is a mixture of so much different shit that it becomes hard to perfectly define - it's kind of like the concept of the Tao in the Tao Te Ching - you can talk ABOUT it but it's not something that can necessarily be defined with mere words and human language - at the very least Identity is something you have to sort of experience to understand, and even at that, the exact, specific meaning of Identity and feelings of Identity may vary from person to person.
ReplyDeleteI definitely do know what my past is, and although alot of people say sociopaths are created by genetics I definitely think my environment effects me alot, maybe more so than other sociopaths. I do believe that I may have turned out to be a sociopath regardless of my environment, but I have noticed something interesting over the years. In certain environments and social dynamics, most of the aspects of my personality that actually violate other people and bring harm to others don't really come out much. In some environments I can very quickly turn into a homicidal maniac ready to murder you if you pose any sort of threat to me physically, legally, or financially. If you don't step on my toes though, I would rather just sit back and collect my money than waste my time bothering you.
I'm sort of going off on tangents (I have always been extremely talkative, and go off on long tangents) but I also think identity is not just an individual thing (where you define yourself) but to a large extent our identity is also created by others. How others view us, and what they tell us we are, does effect how we identify ourselves. For example, you have been told since elementary school you are a human being, so your identity involves being a human being. However, if instead of calling us humans, they called us crack whores, then if someone asked you your species, you would say "I'm a crack whore." If my attempt at humor offends you, I apologize (even though I can't actually feel sorry for you, I'll at least try imitate normal human interactions to some extent). Although I do care to some extent what others think of me for strategic purposes, I have definitely noticed that besides for reasons relating to satisfying my desires and needs, I really don't make any effort to shape people's opinions of me. Many sociopaths totally lie to everyone about who they are; whereas for me it depends on my relationship with you. My family does not want to admit I'm a sociopath, and has sent me to several psychologists and institutitions over the years, had restraining orders on me, and everything. They do not want to face the facts and simply accept the fact that I AM A SOCIOPATH, I sometimes send my mom emails to links with checklists on them explaining stuff about sociopaths but she won't even talk about the issue with me whenever I bring it up. When I was young, it was a different story with each psychiatrist. One would say I have ADD, another would say I'm bipolar, one even said he though I was a delusional schiophrenic (that doctor was a RETARD that claimed I was delusional because since my father is a doctor that is on the board of directors at the hospital I was stuck in this one time that I'm delusional for saying that he molested my brother daily when we were children and beat me daily, and never beat my brother, because I would run away from home and eventually began threatening with weapons when he would attempt to molest me.
DeleteMany of the other psychologists I have talked to have repeatedly urged me to press charges on my father for the child abuse. However, i have explained to them that he has murdered before, and would probably be willing to do it again. He also is well respected socially, he's high on the social totem pole. On the other hand, although it would be difficult to prove chiild abuse, and he could have his doctor buddies say I'm just deliusional, he is also a socioptah with more skeletons in his closet than me at the moment. I have gotten to a point where I really don't even care exactly how long I live, I would rather live a short and exciting life than a long and boring one. And few things would satisfy me more than exposing all of my fathers dirty little secrets, and I have fantasized about visiting my father while he spends the rest of his lfie in prison simply to point and laugh at him. I'm still carefully plotting the whole thing, because I want to leave the smallest possible margin of error so I'm able to succeed in ruining his life and putting him in the environment he deserves to live in. I have a rather invisible sense of self, and definitely a rather vast emotional emptiness that will keep me from ever being truly happy. I sometimes feel basic animalistic feelings, but they are usually short lived, and most of the time I have absolutely no feelings at all, which is probably why I crave drug induced stimulation to fill that void. He used to help take care of me financially, although this past year he has become a jehovahs witness (probably because even though he may not feel actual guilt, if he has any belief in an afterlife he probably thinks he may be pretty fucked if he does not shape up soon, since he's getting old). He barely even talks to anyone in the family at all anymore, and so now he is nothing but useless garbage to me. Before I figured "Yeah, I'll keep quiet about what happened in my childhood and not say anything about that guy that disappeared a couple months after he started fucking mommy if you simply pay for my college and stuff", but he has totally cut me off. In exchange for all the abuse I suffered at his hands, he has gotten himself into a VERY SERIOUS debt with me. So yeah, I'm ready to send this piece of shit to the wolves. What do you all think of the situation? Does anyone have any advice they may spare regarding anything I said? Any questions or commments are appreciated, feel free to talk shit if that's what suits you.
DeleteBy the way, I posted this in three posts because this page only allows 4,096 characters per post and mine exceeded that limit by far. I figured I would rather just make multiple posts than shorten what I have to say.
"But the self is not something one finds, it is something one creates."
ReplyDeleteI've experienced that the self is something one finds, opening doors and getting to know oneself more and more.
So who are you? Do you ever change, or do you always stay the same? Is your self identity ever influenced by your ego, various biases, or any other factors?
ReplyDelete"The man who thinks he is wise is truly a fool, and the man who knows he is a fool is truly wise."
Humility is key to growth of knowledge - the human brain are far from capable of learning everything we could possibly learn, acquiring skills that are useful to us, acquiring resources, power, money, stockpiles of food/water/guns, drugs and sexual relationships. Granted, not all those things are things the Buddha supports being attached to, but even the Buddha told his "followers" that they all had to find their own way, and that they should not believe anything he says until they thoroughly doubt and question his teachings. Once you actually try to prove something wrong and realize that you can't, besides for very specific circumstances/exceptions to the rule, then that makes faith even stronger, regardless of what the faith is in. This is a completely different type of faith than the type of blind faith the dumbed down masses follow. Also, as far as finding the self, you can kind of get to know it a bit, but you are always beating around the bush. The ego is NOT your true self. It's only during strong psychedelic experiences where i experienced temporary ego destruction that I really felt like my original nature was effortlessly manifesting at all times to the fullest extent. Often times when you think you are getting to know your "self", you are merely getting to know your ego, which is an illusion of the self. The true self I think is something a little different. If you really know your true self well enough to explain it to me, I would gladly spend several minutes reading what you have to say.
Some things change, some things stay the same, and the way we view ourselves and also the world around us is influenced by so much shit, especially in modern times. Whether you are a sociopath or not, you are probably guilty of letting your self identity fall victim to be influenced by variables that are part of an intricate, psychological formula that allows you to perceive yourself in a way that may not necessarily be entirely true. Exactly why most people have not reached true self actualization varies from person to person. I wonder exactly how deep the rabbit hole goes regarding the relationship between sociopaths and self actualization, or if it even goes very far at all. At some points in my life I have had a sense of spiritual obligation. I believe the way religion is practiced on a mainstream level is retarded and most mainstream followers do not even properly represent the religion they claim to represent. I think it's up to each individual to choose their beliefs regarding spirituality. But I feel that even though my sense of spirituality may be different than the sense of spirituality someone who isn't a sociopath may have, I definitely don't believe sociopaths are incapable of spiritual cultivation, even though there may be some general trends that they follow that makes them often be a little different than non-sociopaths, or even just other sociopaths.
"So who are you? Do you ever change, or do you always stay the same? Is your self identity ever influenced by your ego, various biases, or any other factors? "
DeleteThere is definately a core-self, how one reacts to things is influenced by ego, biases and various other things but it doesn't change the core-self.
"The man who thinks he is wise is truly a fool, and the man who knows he is a fool is truly wise."
What has knowing self got to do with thinking one is wise ?
"This is a completely different type of faith than the type of blind faith the dumbed down masses follow. Also, as far as finding the self, you can kind of get to know it a bit, but you are always beating around the bush. The ego is NOT your true self. It's only during strong psychedelic experiences where i experienced temporary ego destruction that I really felt like my original nature was effortlessly manifesting at all times to the fullest extent. Often times when you think you are getting to know your "self", you are merely getting to know your ego, which is an illusion of the self."
Hmm, I've had those experiences without any psychedelics involved, the circumstances were often trying, so maybe that had an influence, but I didn't have to take something to experience those things.
"The true self I think is something a little different. If you really know your true self well enough to explain it to me, I would gladly spend several minutes reading what you have to say."
DeleteWhat about being aware of the things that influence ones perception and being able to look at self with the knowledge of those things, experiencing self and the ability to see the web (atleast parts or large parts) one reacts to ?
I think the observer, the spirit there is the consciousness, the awareness, the self.
Ego is the self-masturbating part, no ?
Although more defines ego than that, I would think.
"Some things change, some things stay the same, and the way we view ourselves and also the world around us is influenced by so much shit, especially in modern times. Whether you are a sociopath or not, you are probably guilty of letting your self identity fall victim to be influenced by variables that are part of an intricate, psychological formula that allows you to perceive yourself in a way that may not necessarily be entirely true."
I'm not a sociopath, I feel A LOT ! lol
I think there is a difference between self identity and self, self is there regardless of identity, I am influenced but there seems to be something stronger that makes me see the influences (for a large part, I don't think I see all, when not in the state you described you experienced with psychedelics), I see influences and I see how I react but there is something bigger and more defined and present than that, I haven't really thought about this much, it's more like it is "there".
"Exactly why most people have not reached true self actualization varies from person to person. I wonder exactly how deep the rabbit hole goes regarding the relationship between sociopaths and self actualization, or if it even goes very far at all."
If they have no sense of self, I don't know how self actualization is determined there. Perhaps it's just basic instincts.
I was in hospital some time ago and the anesthetist looked at me with these small googly eyes and lizard-like tongue (I saw a nature-comic unfold before, or behind, my eyes), and I instantly thought of some underwater creature that operates on a different level, there was something very unaware about him, and perhaps it is similar with sociopaths, they don't get the whole intricate, finewoven things, all that falls away. Like they have one or three channels, and others a multitude of more.
"But I feel that even though my sense of spirituality may be different than the sense of spirituality someone who isn't a sociopath may have, I definitely don't believe sociopaths are incapable of spiritual cultivation"
I don't know, I think if they don't get much on a deeper realm, how is spirituality cultivated ?
"I think there is a difference between self identity and self, self is there regardless of identity, I am influenced but there seems to be something stronger that makes me see the influences (for a large part, I don't think I see all, when not in the state you described you experienced with psychedelics), I see influences and I see how I react but there is something bigger and more defined and present than that, I haven't really thought about this much, it's more like it is "there"."
ReplyDeleteI agree that self identity and self are two different things. This "something bigger and more defined and present than that" is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned that we can at best beat around the bush, the true self is something that is beyond anyone's complete logical comprehension in my opinion. In Ch'an Buddhism (which is also commonly referred to as Zen), they place alot of emphasis on experiencing and expressing one's true self. This is a life long process for someone wholeheartedly committed to the practice of Zen. It's not something you can experience just by simply thinking about it. It's alot deeper than that, and I have a 25 page document that I wrote for one of my classes regarding the subject for a class when I was in college, and I received an A+ :D
"If they have no sense of self, I don't know how self actualization is determined there. Perhaps it's just basic instincts."
You explained earlier that you are not actually a sociopath. In the same way that you cannot truly know the taste of an orange wthout actually tasting it, you can't fully comprehend how it is to experience life the way that I do without walking a mile in my shoes. Moreover, every sociopath is unique, despite the fact that they do obviously follow certain trends and generally submit to certain guidelines or it would not be logical for a diagnosis of ASPD to be made.
I disagree that sociopaths have NO sense of self.... I have noticed that not just myself, but many other sociopaths are heavily attracted to things such as Zen and other Eastern philosophies, which generally place some emphasis on detachment from things in the world, as well as liberation from the ego. Zen sees the self in a way that I feel most sociopaths do, and perhaps this is why the other sociopaths I have met often have an interest in the philosophy of Zen, although few actually practice it. This also relates to your question about spiritual cultivation - many sociopaths have no desire to practice religion or spirituality, and many of the ones that do practice religion often abuse their religion in various ways for all sorts of reasons. However, even though I feel a sociopath may be more prone than an empath to approach religion in a corrupt way, whether or not a sociopath chooses to take that route with religion really depends on alot of things, particularly the individuals motives for engaging in religion or spirituality.
For me personally, Zen is a religion that is not based upon emotions and feelings. As far as my actual metaphysical beliefs are concerned, I do believe in Christianity, although I definitely would argue that the way Christianity is viewed and practiced on a mainstream level is not genuine Christianity. Although everyone tends to have their own interpretation of whichever religion they choose to some extent, which is probably the main reason why all religions generally split into various sects over time. As far as alot of my actual spiritual practice is concerned though, that mostly consists of meditation, I also practice various traditional forms of martial arts, and my main style was created at Shaolin Temple (the birthplace of Zen, as well as a TON of martial art styles back in the day) - for many martial arts practice does not have any sort of spiritual twist to it, particularly with modern MMA fighters, although there is definitely some spiritual values and ideals that are common amongst old school, hardcore martial artists.
Delete"I don't know, I think if they don't get much on a deeper realm, how is spirituality cultivated ?"
Emotionally, I will never be a normal person and really understand how certain emotions even feel. However, mentally, I'm relatively developed and mature for my age and I'm able to mentally comprehend plenty of things other people are able to. Many aspects of spirituality do not involve emotion. Some do for some religions, although it really depends on the religion and potentially the specific branch of that religion.
To be totally honest, I think that some degree of spiritual discipline has been EXTREMELY effective in helping me cope with ASPD. During periods when I do not meditate and do not do my martial arts training for a month or more, I'm actually a much more hostile, aggressive, and violent person. Also, I tend to do more unhealthy activities (like doing hardcore drugs or engaging in sex with strangers) when I have tons of free time on my hands. The training also balances me out mentally, and makes me feel less on edge about things, which helps me avoid doing crazy shit all the time.
And also, even though I may not feel guilty if I was to murder you, I could go to prison for it. Therefore, even though I may not feel bad for somebody else if I violate them, I have noticed that when I manipulate and violate others, i often experience negative consequences. Have you ever heard of the Buddhist concept of "Karma", which is in essence simply cause and effect? This is a concept within spirituality that requires no emotion to understand, and once you understand it, it's something that can definitely motivate an individual to look at some of the things they are doing and perhaps change their ways to some extent. Even if it's simply for the sake of your own survival and success, and not to "save all sentient beings" (which is one of the Bodhisattva Vows of Zen), if a sociopath practices spritiaulity, I do believe it can at the very least help them reduce the destructive symptoms of being a sociopath. Does that answer your question? To make a long story short, sociopaths may tend to approach religion and spirituality in a different way that you do, but it's definitely not non-existent amongst every sociopath. Also, even though I don't believe being a cult leader is genuine spiriutality, it's common for cult leaders to be sociopaths.
"there was something very unaware about him, and perhaps it is similar with sociopaths, they don't get the whole intricate, finewoven things, all that falls away."
DeleteI think this is kind of an ignorant opinion of a sociopath. Many sociopaths are actually rather intelligent, and many are very high on the social totem pole. There is a sort of blankness about most sociopaths, including myself, but to think we simply don't understand the interconnectedness of things, or understand ANYTHING about ourselves is absurd. I know my name, my age, the fact that i was born into an old school, abusive Italian family, and many of the things I have previously said show evidence that to some extent I do have a self identity. I simply think that my self identity is ultimately an illusion, that it's not my true self, and therefore to waste much time trying to identify myself instead of simply BEING myself is just a waste of time. I do analyze some of the things i do sometimes, but at the end of the day I don't really look at myself much differently no matter what I do. I can do this or I can do that, ultimately deep down inside I'm still the same person. But whoever that person is, is not my self identity. Who anyone is, is not an exact replica of their self identity. So therefore, even if I spent hours and hours developing a self identity, it would be inadequate to the real thing. And since I'm already here, I don't need to analyze myself to experience and express myself. I simply go about my business for the most part.
"What about being aware of the things that influence ones perception and being able to look at self with the knowledge of those things, experiencing self and the ability to see the web (atleast parts or large parts) one reacts to ?"
ReplyDeleteThe issue here is that although most people are aware of many things influencing them at any time, to think your aware of every single thing that influences you is truly arrogant. Moreover, the psyche has many ways of re-assuring you that your perceptions are correct even if they are not, ESPECIALLY if those false perceptions are being influenced by psychological defense mechanisms such as denial or rationalization. It's hard to notice issues if you deny they exist or simply justify them, regardless of how open minded or honest you may think you are.
Also, were you actually experiencing anesthesia during that experience? If that was the case, it's very likely the drugs they gave you may have effected your perception of him. I doubt opiate based drugs would alter your perception in that way, but nitrous oxide (AKA laughing gas) definitely has some psychedelic aspects to the experience, even though it's technically a disassociative analgesic. The class of drugs nitrous oxide is in is called disassociatives since they literally separate (dis-associate) your mind and body, which is why they can even cause out of body experiences. Lower doses tend to make you feel light and giddy and happy, although higher doses definitely have hallucinogenic and psychedelic properties, ESPECIALLY auditory. I don't know of anyone ever hearing voices on it or anything, but it definitely effects the way i perceive sound, it has a sort of broken record like effect with my hearing at high doses
The other well known disasscoiative drugs are Ketamine (Special K, popular at raves/clubs and used by veterinarians), PCP (Angeldust, not so common these days), and DXM (Dextromethorphan - the active ingredient of most cough syrups, such as Robitussin, which is commonly taken by high school kids to get fucked up). PCP does the most damage to your body, which is then followed by DXM. Nitrous Oxide and Ketamine are the safest drugs within this class, and in my opinion also produce more pleasant effects than DXM. I have never tried PCP so I couldn't comment on that, although it doesn't seem like a drug I would enjoy much.
"Hmm, I've had those experiences without any psychedelics involved, the circumstances were often trying, so maybe that had an influence, but I didn't have to take something to experience those things."
ReplyDeleteComplete ego destruction is pretty intense, and although it's a state that can be reached without psychedelics, psychedelics can produce the state in people whether or not they even intend for the drug to do so. It's generally only common on higher doses of psychedelics. Moreover, I'd like to note that psychedelics are not required to have spiritual experiences, although many cultures in the past have utilized them for this purpose. I own a book titled Zig Zag Zen: Buddhism and Psychedelics which documents the history of psychedelics and their relationship with Buddhism. Also, native american, traditional South American, Yanomama (New Guinea primitive culture), and many other cultures have used psychedelics for spiritual purposes for a very long time. The exact reasons why they did so and exactly what they were utilizing them for varies culture to culture, but psychedelics are the only drug that I can confidently say can make spiritual experiences more intense or more accessible. This is not to say that psychedelics always give people spiritual experiences; if you are not taking them with that intent it's much less likely you will have a spiritual experience with them, although even people just taking them to get fucked up have told me about how they had a spiritual revelation on their trip that changed the way they viewed things forever, and its usually for the better.
Also, even though I have only experienced complete ego destruction while under the influence of psychedelics, I have had some enlightening and spiritual experiences without the aid of drugs. Most spiritual experiences DO NOT involve complete destruction of the ego. Can you describe your experience that you had without psychedelics that produced complete ego destruction? I'm not saying it's impossible that it happened, but it's simply a very rare thing for people to experience complete ego destruction unless they are under the influence of psychedelics, or going through some intense experience, such as sustained physical torture.
Heroin, cocaine, meth, that stuff will usually not bring much enlightenment. Until a couple months later when you are enlightened to the fact that you are going/already broke, maybe homeless and just fucking your life up.
Learning how to play cards is fun until you forget what your even playing for in the first place. You wonder why you choose to control the situations at deck instead of just putting the cards down and living your own life. While your sharpening your skills and enjoying social cocktails you think you've figured out all their is to figure out. But what about you? Do you know who you really are? Do you love yourself enough to wear your own mask? The mask God gave to you? Is it so hard to believe that your perfect just the way you are? When we lose our sense of identity we end up living in this fantasy of delusion. See...what if I told you Harry Potter was real? You can find the messages and the characters in that story throughout countless Esoteric documents from all over the world. Also, why is so hard for you to believe that you have your own individual identity that you came here to find - just like Merlin the wizard did. If you think mirroring others is a skill then you might be better off trying out for the puppeteers - pardon my french I say that with love. Your IDEA of who you are is sabotaging your ability of knowing and feeling who you actually are. When you find him can you tell him that he is already loved and he always has been. The father of the earth is lying to you. He has you fooled into thinking creating illusions keeps you from illusion. You spend so much of your time tricking others when your life is just going to keep on showing you that the jokes on you. Find your way out of the matrix my dear...I know your in there.
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