We need to stop equating emotional responses with being good or bad. They just are.
***
And what is love? Sentiment? I've dealt with plenty of sentimental men and am generally unimpressed. I may sound like a sociopath but I've come to the conclusion that Love is the will to act constructively to preserve attachments we consider to be valuable. It's not a feeling- it's a choice, one that sociopaths are equally capable of making. The one important caveat- there is no such thing as unconditional love with a sociopath.
Is there such thing as truly unconditional love with a non-sociopath? If there is, it's the rare exception.
I unconditionally love someone, but not some of their behavior. You decide what that means...
ReplyDeleteMaria
Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to love everything about them.
DeleteUnconditional love, to me anyway, means you love them even if you occasionally want to choke them to death on their own knocked out teeth.
It doesn't mean you keep taking their shit. It doesn't mean you will not walk away. You can only give so much, make so much effort to maintain that relationship before it becomes too toxic.
It does means you keep loving them and genuinely want the best for them.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delete"unconditional" ultimately with some exceptions sounds like a contradiction.
DeleteOn second thought I am wondering if the "unconditional" factor actually is your own core demand concerning your partner. What exactly does it mean? How much do you desire and demand honesty?
It's not a feeling- it's a choice, one that sociopaths are equally capable of making.
Ideally yes. That's not a bad approach.
I studied the last two times (one time male one time female) of "falling in love" carefully and the analysis brought up a really surprising result. The core instinct seemed to be protective, protective against silly stereotypes and prejudice. Admittedly I was older then, but it still contained traces of the old "romancism", but what was below that or what in fact seemed to have triggered it was actually the most interesting part of it. Guess that makes me an "empath" versus a "psychopath" (non-empath?)?
What I can never quite get out of the love context is friendship. The love lores of the romantics and romantic desires never satisfied me. They may work for pure sexual attraction, which can be disappointing once you look at the person concerned more closely.
Maybe since friendship was always the higher ideal for me. Interestingly the discussion of male friendship has a really old and long tradition. Women were kept out of that for centuries. It feels Shakespeare ridicules "the" standard friendship tale (Titus and Gisippus) in his earliest play: Two Gentlemen of Verona. If you ask me it had adopted homeoerotical elements at the time Shakespeare was confronted with it, interestingly too homosexuality would have resulted in a dead sentence then.
But I go off on a tangent.
What I was trying to get at is, why is friendship so absent in the discussion of love? Shakespeare's play provides the ironical, it feels, context to this question. Has this to do with sex? At it's core the "best friend" tries to rape his friends beloved.
But it really long ago, I studied the play.
are u saying that if u dont give ur girl friend to have sex with ur friends ur a fag ?
Deletethats harsh man what if my girl friend say no ?
I'm a psychopath and emotions are chemicals so vasopressin creates an dependency on the other person in order to get the needed hit of vasopressin. So yes love can exist.
DeletePersonal opinion: Emotions like thoughts, tend to go into a pattern of repetition. "Unconditional" love is a thought pattern that can be broken like any other habit. You will automatically feel a certain way in the beginning before the patterns have had time to break, even though the person you love does not longer fill the condition for these patterns.
ReplyDeleteThis is not due to the great role that you give the sperson as a mate, or the unique "magical" love you experience between each other. It is just a thought pattern, and a series of chemical reactions.
The term "unconditional love" is a decalaration of addiction or dependence to a person. Depending on anyone or anything is lethal. Many a person will view this as a weakness, sociopaths or empaths, both. Your largest aim in life should always be to never depend on anyone or anything. No ones acceptance or anything that enslaves you or gives away your power. Once you depend, you are a slave to that dependency and a powerless weakling unable to take care of your own best interests. To me that a first step to a sense of suicide.
To me personally, love is "unconditional" as long as it and my mate behooves me. As long as that person gives me unconditional loyalty and alliance, and as long as I find the person attractive as a mate, it will be unconditional enough. Can't see the Hollywood aspect of it, never have. Thats just a fake dream small pink girls like to have..
Agree when it comes to mates, but what about children?
DeleteI would state that I think in general that it is the parents responsibillity to handle theyr children and set the grounds for whatever relationship will spring to being in the future. You manipulate and control your children, not the other way around. That is true to whatever aspect of your relations. You are the family "over-head", everything falls on you unless you fail. If you get into a state later on where these relationships are broken and your means to affect the outcome have been diminished, then you have a hard way back to a functional relationship. Often that path is a hard blind path that ends no where near the goal. Like with all humans, when a strong role is established, you will always be more or less viewed through that role. Even if the Queen of England knighted you. To be fair, I understand there are variations and aspects that might change my static display of this, even when we consider that this is true under most all conditions.
DeleteWith all that stated, I see family leadership as a first priority. Love is really just a reward if it all works out.
Might suggest that you investigate traditional south-east asian, Chinese and Japanese family values. They take family matters very seriously, and can be very calculative and stone hearted about these matters. All different cases are propably different, but they are in general very good at sticking together and controlling theyr families.
Thanks for bringing in the term "mate", anonymous. Feels like the direction my meandering thoughts above were aiming at.
DeletePlato's (Sokrates, really?) ideal other half is definitively not easy to find. ;)
I once took a photo of an old couple while returning from the US on on a stopover at a London airport. The image of them fascinated me, still fascinates me deeply today. Maybe since they felt so different from my own parents? They spread a deep closeness and understanding of each other all around them.
Life is mean, I would like to know more about them, know if my impression was real. I would like to know if and how they handled troubles over time, or if in fact they, as it felt then, either never had any or handled them differently. With Socrates in mind: love is the love of wisdom?
Socrates in his speech asserts that the highest purpose of love is to become a philosopher or, literally, a lover of wisdom.
Learning to know and understand the other, instead of vain struggles?
You manipulate and control your children, not the other way around. That is true to whatever aspect of your relations. You are the family "over-head", everything falls on you unless you fail.
DeleteHmm? You think it is important to bring up manipulators and controllers?
This sounds pretty male to me, and firmly grounded in the ideology of the 19th patriarch.
Do you have children?
The way I see it, little depending on the personality of your children, they will try to instinctly test theyr limits most of the time. They start this at a very, very young age. My sons biggest desire is to win control and do whatever he wants. I am luckily able to outwit him for many, many years to come. Lets hope I have set the grounds for a good lasting relationship when the time comes that he is able to take control of himself and the situations he is in, and in the same time up til then I have successfully shown him the best way in doing so.
DeleteChildren will do all sorts of things you normally associate with asocial behaviour. Violence, lying, manipulation, powerstruggles, everything you can dream of until they are successfully formed to be a part of society. Unless they are taught otherwise, they will continue doing whatever they learn by you or themselfes, whatever that is.
I do not believe in being a tyrant, but a strong, involved and well thought out leadership is essential if you do not want a disfunctional family. Because the description above leads to disfunction more easily then not.
We can always discuss the ups and downs of patriarch family environments versus todays family environments, but as far as I can see we have in many ways lost our ways in the western world when it comes to holding together as a working unit.
Now you sound female. Admittedly I never intended to have kids which also means I never looked for marriage. But let me respond anyway:
DeleteThe good news for you is that in the future my offspring will not bring about a further lessing coherence as a "working unit" in the "Western World". ;) Whatever that may mean from a more historical perspective.
What I profited from profoundly though is the trust my mother put in me. Especially in a girl's statistically more difficult times it seems, I know now. She always believed me over whatever someone told her.
And I was absolutely honest to her, if we ignore not so important matters like claiming that more mellow Camembert was not available in the shop, since I did not like it. Of course it was, but I avoided it. Later when I told her about this or other things she confided me, she did the same as a kid. Now I love mellow Camembert myself. ;)
I also once bought chocolate spread, something she did not allow me. which resulted in me having to first hide it and finally to eat the whole pot since I realized the best would be to destroy all the evidence. I can tell you having to eat the whole pot cured my interest in it for a whole lifetime effectively.
Kids are in fact able to learn on their own, at least to some extend. Just as the own experience may be better occasionally than functioning to strict rules.
But there you go, let's agree to somehow disagree on the topic.
My experience with kids was that whenever I had troubles with them, I tended to have troubles with the parents too. To the extend I met them in a short interval as teacher, they all somehow mirrored them. But then maybe this was a self-fulfilling experience. I always wondered how anyone could handle like or dislike as a teacher, something we call "sym-pathy"(liking someone) and anti-pathy (not liking someone).
A good friend told me that someone got himself a bottle of champaign to celebrate the dead of one of my favorite math teachers. That's life.
Are you a conservative, politically? Are you male or female? What is your age, and what series or films concerning families and kids come immediately to your mind?
the writer of this text, anomynous, is being undeniably unambiguous
Deleteundeniably unambiguous
i will not let u sceptics shame this ingenioutely so fuck off
and in response to anomynous 228 :
Deletenever fuck children thats against the law
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Love is NOT a passing emotion, it is a state of being. It is not
ReplyDeletesomething that is here today and gone tomorrow. A fleeting "peak experience."
Love has nothing to do with preference. It is NOT the opposite of hate.
It is the absence of hate.
Any love based of fleeting preference can be turned around into hate.
There was a song by the "Beatles" called "I'm Looking Thru You." One of
the lines of the song goes: "Why, tell me why couldn't you treat me right?
Love has a nasty habit of dissappearing overnight."
Authentic love can't "dissapear overnight." It is a perminate condition
once you acess it.
Of course, many people mistake dependancy for love. This is not so.
The root cause of depandancy is a desire to posess the other person and
a fear of loss. A fearful person will want to make thier "love " object
as fearful as they are so they won't want to leave. This is NOT love.
It is growth inhibiting pathology.
Sometimes real love is percieved as anything but. To indulge another is
NOT to love them. Holding on to you're personal integerity is.
If a man seems "cool and indifferent" and doesn't allow himself to be
"played and minupilated" that IS love. If he keeps his composure in the
face of provacation, that is love. Only a few understand what real love
is because it isn't always overtly desernable. Only a person who has
uncovered thier capasity to love, can see it in another. A person can
only attract another on thier own level because people of differing
levels have nothing genuine to give to each other.
Unconditional love IS the only real love, like fresh air, clean water
and abundant sunshine are the only authentic versions of themselves.
Love has no if ands or buts. It just IS-forever!
NOT to love them
hesus loves u man
DeleteI think parent/child love is the most likely sort to meet the criteria of being unconditional, but it's important to note that the "love" some parents give their kids is far from loving, and can be pathological. Kids also tend to outgrow the worshipful love that they have for parents at the beginning, and if the relationships stay strong and authentic they must be renegotiated.
ReplyDeleteGiven the inherent power imbalance in a parent/child bond, it makes me wonder if it feels safer to love when it is clear who has the upper hand. The loyalty that codependents experience can be very touching, if dysfunctional. It would be interesting to explore the differences/similarities in unconditional love and trauma bonding.
Unconditional love may not be an appropriate goal for two consenting/mentally stable adults for optimal relating. I divorced my husband even though I loved him. It still feels like the right choice, 7 years later because to love him unconditionally (which to me means wholly on his terms) meant I had to surrender my own moral for our pair bond to successfully continue.
Hi, MachiaEmpath, I decided to not respond to you over at the other comment thread. Already spend too much time there, just as I spent too much time here today. I was pleased you seem to not like the emotions - rationality juxtaposition, or head and heart as you may have called it over there. Simply different languages, one less linear and less easy to read it feels, if I notice them at all that is.
Delete***********************************++++
Is your former husband a sociopath, self oder other diagnosed as such? Love meaning for you, love him on his terms?
What does that mean. Accept him the way he is but needing a distance, since to be together he would need to change? I gave up my first relationship when I realized how easy it would be to kill someone in the heat of passion. ...;) I never loved him, but was somehow curious who he was.
I was puzzled with this over there on the other thread:
Machiavellian: Accepting the brain wiring that causes as sociopath to view relationships as transactional- wouldn't it make sense to appeal to the brighter sociopaths to view empaths from a utilitarian standpoint that would encourage prosocial behavior?
First my impression was from reading M.E.'s book that this is how she claims to work have worked over the years. Do I misunderstand?
Second the anti-social features don't seem to be as dominant according to how I understand the scientists on the topic so far as far as the successful psychopath is concerned. The anti-social feature seem to be more dominant in both criminal emphath and non-empath alike. Hardly a surprise it seems. But maybe I misread, and it definitive will take time to understand the use of the concept, its development and genesis.
Your first question: My ex husband is a man who I consider a good friend today. I just don't want to be his wife. He's no sociopath, but he's fairly narcissistic. To be the disempowered partner of a self absorbed individual when you have four young children leads to a very negative situation. If I had stayed I would have been very resentful and I didn't like the things we were modeling to the kids (Dad rules the house, Mom does all grunt work of parenting leading to her becoming increasingly bitchy). I didn't want to live that way.
DeleteYour second question: regarding the idea that sociopaths relate to empaths from a utilitarian perspective- I think ME (in the book) does this to a certain extent, but her relationships "blow up" after certain periods of time when empathic neediness drives her to act out or abandon the relationship. My point was simply this: recognize the different wiring from the get-go. Some empathic traits are a real drag and you just have to allow for them. An analogy: electric cars vs traditional cars. One is not better than the other- they run on different fuels. Trying to expect one to run on the others fuel is setting yourself up for a car that won't start. So- if empaths and sociopaths are like different cars- expecting to never have to fill the different other up is unrealistic. I think that if the sociopath swallows the short term irritation of maintaining the empath, they gain more in the long run than if they simply abandon every empath they meet once the empath expresses a need for "fuel" that the sociopath has no need for. Practically this plays out as follows: even if you can't talk about feelings with a straight face, perhaps you can find another way to indicate support to a stressed out empath. Maybe write a card saying "I am not good with tears, but I do want to see you feeling better. (or something like that), and then leave them alone to process their feelings. For some empaths, this will work beautifully, and the sociopath has much to gain in the long run by not running at the first sign of tears. For some empaths, that isn't enough and they are probably not good potential long term friends for a sociopath, but that's ok. You don't have to be friends with everyone, but it's a shame to abandon an otherwise valuable connection simply because of a momentary difference in the way you process emotions.
thanks, MachavellianEmpath, I always have to take care to not add an "i" in your name. ;)
DeleteSounds slightly like the arrangement of my parents. When I look at them I always ponder why so different people hook up at all. To their credit, they were very young. Not that it cannot work if it fits, if it indeed is the "other side". The problem with them is one, my father, was a careerist but highly conventional and disinterested in anything beyond technology and engineering, my mother a reader who wasn't at all conventional. My trauma with my father is caused by him being externally controlled, scraping the surface here.
But congratulations you managed to stay friends, important for the kids, it feels.
You don't have to be friends with everyone, but it's a shame to abandon an otherwise valuable connection simply because of a momentary difference in the way you process emotions.
Returning to ME's friend's dieing dad story. As a juvenile and young woman I was drawn very much to Eastern philosophy (I Ging, Taoism) although I haven't returned to it for decades a special type of wisdom enters my mind in this context. I do not remember it verbatim, but it's something like:
If something really belongs to you cannot throw it away it will return in time. (or it will always return)
This is what happened in the dieing dad scenario. Isn't it? They met again, I guess after the dad died.
I can understand both sides, that is, wanting to accompany the favorite parent, in my case my mother, when dieing. She is 85 now so it will happen sooner or later.
From the little experience I have by now from accompanying someone in a really complicated and ultimately still incurable illness in the hospital here over weeks, I can also tell you it drains you enormously. There was no space for anyone else in that period. Work, the person I tried to help by listening and accompanying her, and sleep to fill my "engine". She survived, but needs medication probably up to her death. I guess it makes me an empath that I found this experience deeply satisfying at the same time.
To what extend has the leave taking from a parent you care about space for others? Really? Could it have been their was a conventional pressure on the side of ME's friend to keep up the relationship at the same time. Although there really was not much space for it. I don't know, I ask you.
Sometimes friendships also have their time. Sometimes people change in ways that ends them. Sometimes you meet friends after decades and immediately realize why you choose them to start with. It's like having seen them the last week. I am not good in devoting too much effort in friends, and I am no psychopath. But for me too friendships can fade in and out. Some have their time. Being older now, I realize that some may in fact have been studying objects the way M.E. describes it. The difference is that I never intended to imitate them, but to learn more about myself and about "other's state of being". In any case this type of friendship seems to lead to an almost "natural end" in time ...
Thank you machiaempath. I have periods I do not feel like giving my all to my relationships. I give so much when I love. Altough recently think that lots of times my love turns from romantic to sacrificial , it can go back and forth to feeling confusing to me. So i also believe that
DeleteLove is a choice, yes. Because it doesnt remain haphazard after the honeymoon is over....I really do not like this shift in feeling btw....(who does?)
That fact that it is a choice to me to maintain my s.o. interest makes me
conscientious partner /very good girlnfriend material.
I have questions for other people who might feel this wsy.. what are the ways you keep it fresh. I know on paper sure. The way I do it is to stay away periodically to reignite original intense flame. But I dont do that ( I really d k .., maybe I DO??) T he same as other people bec I think about it a lot. Is it normal to blow hot and cold to someone inside that you want to keep? They dont know it. I just tell I "need space" and this men understand and respect.
Is that the empath and normal person way or what?
*surrender my own moral agency
ReplyDeletecan you describe your moral agency versus his? What do you mean with moral agency?
DeleteMoral agency means: the capacity to live in a manner that is consistent with my core values. When people enter into interdependent partnerships and have different ideas about money, sex, childrearing that are reflective of personal beliefs, there can be conflict.
DeleteIn my marriage, the conflict was resolved by my always giving in for the sake of peace. I surrendered my moral agency/capacity to live out my own beliefs. In many partnerships a give and take dynamic can be established but I was not able to negotiate compromise- it had to be his way always. So I divorced him, even though I loved him. I figured he needed a different sort of woman who was less of a free spirit.
heaven, did you ever have a brain scan?
ReplyDelete"We found a significant reduction of hippocampal and amygdala volumes in borderline personality disorder. There was a significant 24% reduction of the left orbitofrontal and a 26% reduction of the right anterior cingulate cortex in borderline personality disorder. Only left orbitofrontal volumes correlated significantly with amygdala volumes."
"I've come to the conclusion that Love is the will to act constructively to preserve attachments we consider to be valuable. It's not a feeling- it's a choice, one that sociopaths are equally capable of making."
ReplyDeleteI was always unable to rationalize why I could not feel Hallmark emotions regarding "love"-based interactions with others. That bothered me for the longest time and I do not know how common that is among sociopaths. However, I have over time realized that my love is merely another word for a feeling of profound respect. My love need not be romantic.
And if love is merely the conscious choice of elevating another with such respect, then does conditionality matter? We can respect those that we play with on occasion. I try not to, but I think everyone can sell out to mindgames if the conditions are right, regardless of the status one confers another person.
I've come to accept this representation of love. If I love you, then I respect you more than most that I respect. There need not be an expectation of reciprocity. And that love may diminish or fade if conditions change either in my view of the other person(s) or their views of me.
Hold it in the moment, but don't be destroyed if it fades. It need not matter if some actions break that love; it merely means they are no longer deserving of such respect.
Your words remind me of the stoic philosophers. For all of the stigma the label of sociopath carries, I can't help but wonder- is what a sociopath experiences like Buddhist non-attachment? If so... perhaps there is more enlightenment present in your experience than might appear at first glance.
DeleteYet another empath worshiping at the feet of the vapid fake-human socio! Congratulations on your enslavement. Nothing like the real thing seeing the phony as superior!
DeleteI think calling someone a sociopath discounts them
ReplyDeleteAs a person. I am
Going to my guy a guy on the sociopath spectrum.
And I love him unconditionally. There is nothing that he could say or do that would lessen my feelings of love for him. That's by my choice. And I do not need him. I al an attorney and I have my own life. Including various other friendly flirtations. I am thankful for him
And we have fun
Together.
Hahahahahahah...
DeleteUS culture does indeed define love as a passive state of being. We speak of "falling in love" as though it's a mud puddle that appears in our path when we're not watching our step.
ReplyDeleteOne of the valuable mindsets I was introduced to in church is the notion of agape love...love as action. As choice. As something we do consciously. Love we DO control.
The notion that love is just something we fall into, or out of, implies that we have no choice, nor responsibility, in the matter. This played out in my marriage, probably to textbook degree. We got married for better or for worse, right? So when his drug addiction took over, and he was running around with people who didn't care whether he lived or died, I couldn't just leave him to his fate. I cared whether he lived or died. So I put up with the junky-hag "girlfriends," the verbal abuse, the physical abuse, compromising my own well-being because I felt as though I was his only true friend. Didn't abandon him, got him into rehab when he FINALLY asked for that help, wrote him every single day, never missed a visiting day. When he got out, I went with him to the clean and sober camping trips, loved seeing him finally out in the sunshine, was so proud of him, so grateful (and still am) that he hadn’t wound up dead.
Heh...so then, he's off the drugs, finally holding down a job, healthy, reconciled with his parents, cut loose all his old friends, even changed our phone number. And having stuck it out through the worst, I'm looking forward to the whole rest of our "better" life together. Whew!
Until the day he announced, "I don't want to be married anymore. Oops, I've fallen out of love with you."
Huh? What in hell did that have to do with anything? I'd fallen out of love with him at least a hundred times, but as to actually LOVING him, that was my job. I was his wife.
But the whole mud puddle construct was his defining metaphor, and having fallen out of love, he saw no way that we could or should stay together under "false circumstances." I stuck around for another year or so, waiting for him to snap out of it, but no. Somehow, my onetime best friend now saw me as nothing more than a "wife" in the most American, dirty-word meaning. I was an obligation. I was the millstone around his neck. I was, bleccchhh, The Wife.
I don't regret having married him, hell no! Plenty of fun memories, and I try to focus on those. Still very thankful he's alive. Don't understand why we can't be friends, but that's just not done with the ex Wife. In a culture where The Wife is a man's biggest burden and annoyance, The Ex Wife is dirt to be shaken from his shoes so he can "move on" to better things. One of the things I said to him that stuck, that really seemed to upset him, was, "You just don't have my back." He was an ex-Marine, so that was a huge insult, but it was true. He'd have killed or died for any of the guys in his unit, but I was The Wife, which made me a whole different animal. I had notions of partnership, of him and me vs. the world, of sticking it out through thick and thin, growing old together in mutual support and protection, always having a safe place to fall. We'd discussed all that stuff before getting married, and I thought we were in agreement around all those crucial issues. But no...when it became "convenient," he invoked the magic words that have invalidated so many American marriages: "I've fallen out of love with you." That trumps everything. Done deal. Go away.
So I don't trust "falling in love." Love is hard work, and it can be hard thankless work. No regrets, really. I learned a lot, about love, and about my own strength. But would I ever get married again? Hells no. I don't trust it. To me, marriage is one of the surest paths, at least in the United States, to losing your very best friend. Never again will I be The Wife.
wow.
DeleteI mean that sincerely. That's a shit story. I get it.
Love does not take effort. The effort you speak of is exerting muscle tension in the attempt to control a situation. Control and love are not the same. Control is just a technique of trying to exert influence but it always sets up a natural resistance to itself. What you can do is give up control, and learn how to be empowering instead.
DeleteTo love is to be happy with. Simple. In a relationship, the negative effects you may be experiencing are fear, jealousy, anger, and doubt. These things have nothing to do with love. Love is only the good stuff.
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