I have never really been on any medication. I’m curious what tranquilizers you have been taking. Do you think some of the mellowing out is also just due to age and/or acquiring enough in your personal life that you are a little more hesitant to risk it on risk-seeking impulses?
To answer your questions, my impulse has traditionally been that it would be that it is better to be a loose cannon then to be a dumbed down version of myself, although if I were faced with ultimatums from loved ones or started to feel a little out of control, I wouldn’t hesitate to mellow out through the use of drugs. I don't know if it is necessarily a self image issue, but depending on what I'm doing, I feel like I am barely smart enough to keep one step ahead in my exploits. I already don’t do a lot of things I would like to do (boxing, other violent activities that involve possible head injuries) because of that, and I would have a similar reluctance to take meds because it might make me lose that part of my personality that helps me fulfill the role that I often choose in my life. Plus I guess I am comfortable being me and it would be weird to feel like something else besides me is my puppetmaster. So I guess the feeling of a loss of control would bother me a bit.
On the other hand, sometimes I feel like being a lot more passive, taking a break. I am sort of feeling like that right now, actually. And I go through cycles of being this way, on and off. Maybe several years on, one year off? It's sort of like sleep to me, and I like to take meds to sleep that deep restorative sleep. So maybe when I'm off I should be on meds too, just to give my mind a break. And I really like trying new things, so maybe I will try this.
I understand what you mean about the medication "resetting" your brain. The mind gets in habits of thinking and it's hard to break those habits, but I can see how being on meds would by their very nature be a disruptive force in your mental patterns. Once a pattern is disrupted, I think it is much easier to start a different pattern. That's why it's hard for me to get too sad about my life falling apart.
Your question “Is it weaker to latch on to one's emotions as a source of identity and meaning, or to accept them as a liability and turn them off?” is a really interesting one. I have a shadow of a memory of choosing the latter and I don't really think it’s reversible, but I don’t really have opinions anymore about which is better. I guess the answer is that it is better for the world to have some of each. And for each individual, it probably depends on your circumstances, like choosing which airport security line you think is going to be best for your particular needs. The default for sociopaths is to not identify with their emotions as a source of identity and meaning, and the default for empaths is to see their emotions as a reflection of the truth about themselves and the world around them. Both of them are incomplete approaches to discerning reality, probably. Both would do well to learn something from the other.
Has anyone else had good experience with meds? It would actually be great if there was a medication that worked with sociopaths. Then we could be like schizophrenics -- as long as we were thought to be taking medication, people would likely not discriminate against us. It's sad, really, because I think a lot of sociopaths have found non-medicated ways to achieve the same ends (e.g. resetting out mindsets towards more pro-social ends through mindfulness, meditation, found spirituality, etc.). And we know that this can also change brain chemistry -- as my friend's doctor told her regarding postpartum depression, you can treat it either with medication or with therapy and both work to the same goal. But would people trust that a sociopath had made this sort of internal change sans meds? Would the sociopath eventually be able to be given the same benefit of that doubt, that although he remained a sociopath, he had it "managed"? The problem with figuring out a non-medicated way of resetting your mindset or controlling your thoughts/behavior is that people put way more trust in the power of medications than they do the power of the mind to change. Or am I wrong?
I'm bipolar and I went on meds to be a calmer, less reactive person for my children's sake.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how if works for sociopaths, but becoming more mellow can be good. Especially since a lot of sociopaths sound like they self-medicate with alcohol and drugs.
Yeah, but sociopaths often do that to stave off boredom, which is particularly vexing.
DeleteFor me, pot serves multiple purposes. It has the effect of eliminating pervasive boredom whilst rendering me slightly less callous, and more attuned to my environment- all without significantly impairing my cognitive faculties. But this may not be the case for everyone- let alone most psychopaths. (And yes, I am using the terms interchangeably.)
For some people alcohol and drugs make boredom worse.
DeleteFor some people alcohol and drugs make boredom worse.
DeleteI cannot possibly fathom how. ;)
Perhaps if I could be skydiving, white-water rafting, skiing, kite-surfing, or riding roller coasters all day, everyday, I'd rarely drink or smoke...
But who am I kidding? Within two weeks I'd want to try all of it high- just to push it to the next level. :)
It's a sensation thing. I seem to crave more intense stimulation, more frequently, than most sane individuals.
I agree with all of this.
Delete"The problem with figuring out a non-medicated way of resetting your mindset or controlling your thoughts/behavior is that people put way more trust in the power of medications than they do the power of the mind to change. Or am I wrong?"
ReplyDeleteIt shouldn't matter what other people think about "power of the mind to change" with or without the meds. The question is do you want to change? If you do, assuming it can be done, people will trust this change in time. But any type of change comes hard to most of us. I wonder if antidepresant might help socios. Maybe they could lift them out of boredom/negativity by maintaining/increasing the reward/(dopamine) and happy/(serotonin) neurotransmitters in the brain. Good mood is linked with pro-social behavior. So perhaps antidepresants might be one option...
Antidepressants have a distinctly different effect on psychopaths then on normal individuals. In addition to elevating mood and elevating symptoms of boredom and lethargy associated with depression psychopaths also see often side effects. Such as an increase in certain negative adaptive psychopathic traits such as superficial charm, glibness, and an increased ability to manipulate others. They do, however, also decrease the more maladaptive traits of lack of empathy, callousness, impulsivity, and cruelty. So will taking antidepressants stop a psychopathy from manipulating and using others? No, in fact it could possible make it worse, but it will almost definitely curb his impulsive risk taking behavior.
DeleteThe default for sociopaths is to not identify with their emotions as a source of identity and meaning, and the default for empaths is to see their emotions as a reflection of the truth about themselves and the world around them. Both of them are incomplete approaches to discerning reality, probably. Both would do well to learn something from the other.
ReplyDelete^I like this.
So maybe when I'm off I should be on meds too, just to give my mind a break. And I really like trying new things, so maybe I will try this.
Maybe they could lift them out of boredom/negativity by maintaining/increasing the reward/(dopamine) and happy/(serotonin) neurotransmitters in the brain. Good mood is linked with pro-social behavior. So perhaps antidepresants might be one option...
I already don’t do a lot of things I would like to do (boxing, other violent activities that involve possible head injuries)
Violence is delicious. I need a regular dose of it.
because of that, and I would have a similar reluctance to take meds because it might make me lose that part of my personality that helps me fulfill the role that I often choose in my life.
That combative edge is a double-edged sword, isn't it? I have also been tempted to quell my temper with antidepressants, but I've heard a great deal of anecdotal evidence that pharmaceuticals really mess up your emotions. They purportedly dull your feelings. For someone like me, that would probably mean losing them altogether. I would urge you to consider that possibility very carefully before resorting to legal diversions. If you ask me, you'd be better off smoking pot, or brewing coca leaf tea, or something.
On the other hand, sometimes I feel like being a lot more passive, taking a break. I am sort of feeling like that right now, actually. And I go through cycles of being this way, on and off. Maybe several years on, one year off?
It sounds as though you are referring to your productivity cycle. Mine is short and fitful. I accomplish obscene amounts of work, to very exacting standards, within a very short period of time- only to crash thereafter for a few weeks, invariably shirking my responsibilities, annoying people with my unreliability, and generally falling behind. It doesn't help that I can't focus on any *one* thing- ever.
I can't hide this from the people I work closely with. They pick up my slack when I inevitably lapse into periods of carelessness, and give me things with which to "fidget appropriately" during meetings. :P Do you have someone you can delegate stuff to in order to accommodate your downtime without self-destructing?
After a certain amount of time, I generally let everything fall apart. In so doing, I have often left chaos, confusion, questions and hurt feelings in my wake. (I am reaching my third year of a personal project, so this is a pivotal time for me. Already, I can feel a surging desire to bolt, and start something new- but I am determined to resist that urge because this project benefits a lot of people, including my own family.)
e.g. resetting out mindsets towards more pro-social ends through mindfulness, meditation, found spirituality, etc.
"Pro-social". Pft. Not bloody likely. Perhaps on the surface, and in deed- where it actually counts- but deep down, we both know how much of a bother people and their expectations are.
No matter how much I may grow spiritually, a profoundly cynical and somewhat antisocial mindset is likely to be my constant companion throughout life.
That's why it's hard for me to get too sad about my life falling apart.
What good does it do to dwell on things, anyway?
"The default for sociopaths is to not identify with their emotions as a source of identity and meaning, and the default for empaths is to see their emotions as a reflection of the truth about themselves and the world around them. " --that assertion about "neurotypicals" is simply not true. You can be a moral relativist and an empath for instance. You can derive meaning (whatever this means) from creative activity. Others that you care about have nothing to do with that. Feelings for them are irrelevant to execution of your activities.
Delete...You can also be an empath that engages in multiple projects, who is non conformists etc etc. Neurotypicality has nothing to do with loss of individuality. From what I observe from the various posts the biggest divide seems to be that non-socios would not hurt others for pleasure, or engage in violence because "violence is delicious."
It is possible to derive pleasure from hurting others, without really harming them. (Think kickboxing, or kinky sex.) Sublimation is a key strategy in managing a penchant for sadism.
DeleteIt is possible to derive pleasure from hurting others, without really harming them.
DeleteThat makes no sense, my dear.
Sublimation is key to a lot of things, though.
DeleteI guess it is a question of semantics. I don't count a few well-placed cuts or scratches as "harm"- but they sure can "hurt". When the adrenaline dies down, that is.
DeleteI suppose in the strict, literal sense of the term, such things are indeed harmful- but only in the most superficial of ways. And there is such a thing as good pain, dontcha think?
Then again, I am probably not a very reliable compass wherein such matters are concerned, all things considered, so you've got a point. :P
And there is such a thing as good pain, dontcha think?
DeleteYes.
It's not really a drug, but more of a vitamin. 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) is the precursor to serotonin, a neurotransmitter that controls things like mood, appetite, and sleep.
ReplyDeleteI've been taking 200mg/day before I go to bed, and I have better appetite control, I need less sleep to feel well-rested (7 versus 9 hours), and I do have an increased ability to feel emotions. I still have to choose to feel them, but it's not as difficult.
The western world relies on personality control through a system of
ReplyDeletenumbing and/or dumbing.
In the numbing sense we've become a pill-popping culture. Nobody wants
to face their pain. They want it shut down immeadiatly. They want
instantanous relief. The problem with that, is if you cover up the pain
with pills-if you numb it, repress it-you won't discover the source of it,
and it will always assert itself again. Do you think the devils of big
pharma and the neighborhood drug pushers care about this trait? It's only
money in their pocket. They crave repeat business. Your ignorance is thier
bliss.
In the "dumbing" sense we have only to look at the modern culture and the
"social priorites."
What is it that people want? They want to live an "abundant" life and
have the self affirmed. How to they go about this? Primarly through
"social proof." They take their cues from others, because the majority
must be right. There's a saying: "Can fifty million Frenchmen be wrong?"
When President Clinton got in trouble with the Monica Lewinsky affair;
The lies, the seamen stained dress, trying to get others to lie-every
evening news cast began with an opinion poll. A solem faced newscaster
would inform us that most people did NOT want president Clinton impeached. After all, it was all only about sex wasn't it? A sex lie isn't really a lie because EVERYBODY does it? These propagandist news-
casters never mentioned the fact that 1,000s of people were doing time
in prison because of purjury about sex. Depends on what you mean by the
word "is."
So the media sets social trends. They let us know only what they want us
to know because a misinformed public is a managable public. This affects
all areas of life from advertising: "Drink this brand of sugar water (soda) and you'll get all the sex you want." Through public education:
"We've got to shape minds." To politics: "The Travyon Marian murder is
sympatmatic of the way things are in this country for young black men."
Go on some internet sites that describe the horrific attacks on white
people by blacks that are NEVER reported on the media or mentioned in
public school and you'll see what I mean.
The only true education is to is how those in the power elite of big
business, "education" and opinion shaping "popular culture" are explioting humanity. And don't forget religion, probably the worst offender of all.
Why are you so consumed by all this pointless paranoia and conspiracy bullshit? Your wasting your life. The fact is certain medication work for certain individuals to certain degrees. For others they don't work at all. That's just the way it is. Accept it. And move on.
DeleteHealth care is simply another arena in which conformity is imposed on those that don't fit in. Examples abound. What of the intersexed child that has their genitals mutilated to fit the binary expectation of sex? What of the manic artist that is forced to take psych meds after being involuntarily committed for being too 'out there'? Just as there is an expectation for human behavior, there is an expectation for human health, even if the disease or disorder at hand causes no suffering for the inflicted. Now, by all means, if what you are inflicted with causes yourself suffering, please seek such help.
ReplyDeleteI'd much rather be a callous, unemotional sociopath than a husk. The greatest gift of life is individuality. Being forced to give up individuality for conformity, even through mind-altering medicine or other health 'care', is anathema. If I am not unhappy with my mental state, then why should I have to die a little to conform?
There was an oxytocin nasal spray that I seem to remember had good trial results in aspies. Perhaps it would create the same social bonding in psychopaths. Any volunteers to get some and report back?
ReplyDeleteFor myself, I've noticed that painkillers (obtained legally whilst injured) created a lovely 'warm' feeling that differs greatly from my default sensation of well, nothing/coldness. They also seemed to promote my ability to be fonder of the few people I already like, and made me feel ever so slightly magnanimous toward the rest. It was a wonder, really.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, I found it easy, for the first time in my life, to say all of the 'right' platitudes at the right time. Alas, when they wore off, I'm afraid I was more even more callous and irritable than usual, which is saying a great deal.
Beware of the dopamine re-uptake inhibitors.
DeleteI took a minimum dose Wellbutrin and didn't
sleep for over forty hours.
to Fred: how amazing are the chemicals. it would be fantastic to recreate such positive state without the adverse reactions.
Deleteto hikicks: while it is obviously terrible not to sleep for over forty hours, it takes time to get used to antidepressants. also everyone responds differently to them. it takes patience to find the right one.
in my case, i had a terrible reaction with Wellbutrin (couldn't stay awake) but had fantastic results with Lexapro. it took me one month to adjust to it though (which was a nightmare). overall i get positive mood from it, and hardly any irritability. feeling calm, yet still chase after the fantastic. motivated as ever. i am not a socio though (i could not hurt anyone). but can identify with most other traits described by socios.
i am thinking (wish there was a research on this!) that maybe right antidepressants would help with socios irrate moods.
For ADHD and depression, I've been taking a combo of Ritalin and Wellbutrin for almost 10 years, and it works amazingly well for my particular brain chemistry. I'll come around to the sociopathy angle shortly.
DeleteOver the past year, I realized that my serotonin levels had been slowly dropping over that time, and I ended up deciding to add Paxil to the mix, because it worked really well for depression when I had tried it before and I couldn't continue to live without being able to feel any emotional happiness. Fortunately, I have a really supportive psychiatrist who treats me like an adult, agreed that starting Paxil sounded like a great idea, gave me recommendations on dosages, and now I'm taking the combo of 3 prescription meds + caffeine + THC in the evenings and it works perfectly, for me.
Wellbutrin does seem to be a drug that either works really well, or messes with your sleep cycle and mood in really unpleasant ways. The only side effect I'm dealing with from any of the drugs is that, since I started on Paxil, well, it's often used to treat premature ejaculation in men, so since I didn't have that particular problem to begin with, it can take a lot longer to climax on it. That might be a bad thing for some people (like if you have a poor sex life and you're squeamish about masturbation), but I'd rather see it as a slight annoyance when I'm not dating, and an opportunity for a more interesting sex life when I am. Maybe I'll get a side job as a porn actor if I can fit it around my day job. :)
This is actually the topic that I wanted to ask M.E. about after reading her book. There seem to be some slight similarities between some forms of ADHD and sociopathy in terms of impulsiveness (I'm much more the inattentive variant myself), so I'm curious how effective something like Ritalin might be (I'd stay away from Adderall, as it seems to have a higher risk of side effects and addiction). It might be like Wellbutrin where it's a great idea for some, and an absolutely terrible idea for others.
When Paxil was originally being heavily promoted on TV, "social anxiety" was one of the big conditions they were promoting it for. I know it helps a little bit for me, but the Wellbutrin was far better at addressing all of my anxieties. However, in addition to boosting my ability to feel any kind of happiness and joy at all (which is why I wanted to start taking it again), the Paxil does seem to increase my empathy as well, so it might be one of the more promising SSRI's to try to help feel more empathy?
The 5-HTP suggestion's not a bad one either, if you don't have access to anything better, or don't need anything stronger. It does boost serotonin in the brain because 5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin that can pass the blood-brain barrier.
I wonder what something like MDMA would do for treatment of sociopathy. I tried it a few times after college, and the experience reminded me a lot of Paxil, especially when I was ramping up the dosage (including jaw clenching, etc). Since it dumps your serotonin all at once, you couldn't take MDMA daily like you can with Paxil, but it's already had some promising research results as a "reset your brain" drug, for people recovering from PTSD, for example.
i have ADHD, but i am not a socio so not sure if this is ultimately relevant. i found stimulats particularly useful to control my impulsivity. i can also stick to projects longer when on them. but i need to take stimulants with lexapro. the mix gives me happy/content state (i think thats lexapro here), and less bored/sticking to projects (i think stimulants here).
DeleteSomeone else mentioned that they had had good results with Lexapro, fantastic drug. I have taken it before and unlike the individual who previously posted about it I am a psychopath (or at least a sub-clinical one). The drug made me feel fantastic in moderate doses and took me almost no time to adjust too with no ill side effects ever experienced. Unlike Wellbutrin, Lexapro does not affect dopamine levels and is instead a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor. If this factor makes a difference in individuals high in psychopathic traits I do not know, but it is something to consider.
Deletei mentioned having good results with lex. can you say bit more how it made you feel fantastic? less bored, more happy etc. and in terms of relating to other people any differences when on lex?
Deleteif i could find a group of socio volunteers who would be willing to try out lexapro, perhaps i could offer my time for doing a study. if lexapro would show a promise, i would publish the findings in peer reviewd journal.
Deletethis is not the type of research i normally do, but as i mentioned in one of my posts, i have a socio friend who i admire much. i wish there was a way to ease the negative states he is constantly plagued with. and of course all socios would benefit if there was something to lexapro. without research, we merely engage in lexapro gossip.
I made that comment about Lexapro.
Delete"Someone else mentioned that they had had good results with Lexapro, fantastic drug."
It definitely took the boredom away and I always felt happy. Like every day was the best day of my life. Everything I did was great. Anything anyone else was great. Everything was just great. However, it did not effect my ability to relate to other people. My happiness while on Lexapro was pretty much indifferent of other peoples feelings and actions. But it did make me much nicer to people and much less callous.
"If i could find a group of socio volunteers who would be willing to try out lexapro, perhaps i could offer my time for doing a study"
And I would love to be of any help I could for a study like this.
Psychotropics are cop-outs for a weak-minded society, and tools to keep people in check. They only treat symptoms, and cause other ones, often times worse than the original symptoms, and often are permanent. End of story.
ReplyDeleteEverything anon says is correct. Slavery got called out, so they keep replacing it with more subtle means.
to Fred: how amazing are the chemicals. it would be fantastic to recreate such positive state without the adverse reactions.
It is possible, and has always been possible. But most people have forgotten/had it hidden from them eons ago.
freedom is mostly a state of mind. yet mind fundamentally is a slave to a chemical.
Deleteyou are right Medusa that meds cause problems potentially. like with anything in life we need to figure costs and benefits of anything we choose to do. i found lexapro a good fix for bad mood and nagging irritability. for me the benefits outweight the costs (for now).
psychos i have known/still am friends with seem to be plagued by general negativity and restlessness/boredom. i am not even talking about (in)capacity for empathy. just thinking that maybe exploring serotonin and dopaminergic systems migh offer some relif for "their" problem. research would be very helpful obviously, and some socios wish for "fix."
i am fond of my socio friend. i wish there was a relief for the negative feelings he seems to be plagued with. he is a genius. it is a wonder that he doesnt bathe in constant flow of positivity given the accomplishments. wish he did.
Yeah, the whole negative mindset thing is a bit of a bitch. I still wouldn't whore myself out to Big Pharma, though. My feelings couldn't withstand being any more attenuated than they already are.
DeleteCase in point: my youngest said to me today, indignantly, "That is what people DO when they are upset, mom. They cry!!"
Ugh.
Antidpressants for sociopaths sounds like an ill-fitting band-aid that might superficially cover up the problem, while allowing the real wound to fester underneath.
Case in point: my youngest said to me today, indignantly, "That is what people DO when they are upset, mom. They cry!!"
DeleteUgh.
LOL on the "ugh"
Medusa, how nice for you that your neurotypical brain lets you believe that all psychotropics are just a cop-out for weak-minded people. You probably also believe my ADHD is from being weak-minded and lazy too.
DeleteI'm glad you don't stand in the way of me and the pharmaceuticals *I* need to live a normal life, but I always feel compelled to call out holier-than-thou bullshit about how you don't need drugs so no-one else should need them either. Your brain is not my brain. Don't cast judgment on others for having to adjust our neurotransmitters to function at a high level in society.
I'm drugging myself, as a fully consenting who sought out meds of my own free will, to optimize my brain. So happy for you that you never had to make that choice.
^ case in point.
DeleteNice job twisting what I said into something I didn't in order to make your argument and remain in your little world. And also for making assumptions about me, whom you know nothing about.
Defensive, are we?
@Medusa: Do tell...
DeleteMy comment above was in response to yours at 6:44 pm, of course.
DeleteThe anti-depressant celexa (citalopram) made took my callousness and recklessness to unprecedented levels. I would not use it again.
ReplyDeleteI should also mention that the SSRI sertraline turned me into motherfucking Spock, colder than the void of space.
ReplyDeleteall that shit fucks with your sex drive. IMO sex is a natural antidepressant. Y'all should be jerking off in ur basements if you don't have sex partners
Deletesorry to should you....i just said people shouldn't be shoulding people abt their happiness in the newer post :O
Deletei just stumbled upon good observation by M. E. Thomas discussing dopamine. here i copy the entry for those interested: "SUNDAY, MARCH 11, 2012 Dopamine: treatment for sociopathy?"
ReplyDeleteas i suggested above, maybe looking into serotonin might also be of use. hopefully there are labs investigating this already. i havent came across any in press studies as of yet.
Hint: "There are several ways to increase the dopamine concentration in the brain and body to increase. In this case, as mentioned above, the same molecule mobilizes different psychic abilities. It is up to us, which stimulating aspects of dopamine we use. The following methods are suitable for mobilization of the body's Dopamine. ..."
DeleteArtificial dopamine, the imitation of the natural black substance (substantia nigra) in our brain, does not seem to pass the brain blood frontier, only L-Dopa does. But the longterm use of any type of neuroleptuca can leave traces. Seen too many victims in this field. This could well have happened had I trusted a friends that I am schizophrenic. Which I may well have learned to control only.
Full disclosure, my favorite drug is not Freud's divine plant, but marijuana, to be more precise sativa. But I also rarely have it around since I dislike the larger context of its illegality. Which does not necessarily make me fond of legal drugs, not even of the frequent pain-killer-syndrome (female problem it feels) or the usual sleeping pill syndrome. I prefer to ask my body, what is wrong with you? I would never want to be a slave of the legal drug market.
I also prefer to use tricks to make my body produce whatever I need, see above. I discovered early that we are quite able to do so, accidentally. Sleep deprivation for instance forces the body to produce quite possibly Dopamine, in any case it works mood enhancing with me adding a little adrenaline and thus energy. Took a while to understand why I liked it so much and the only problem was getting older. You do not look especially "fresh" the next day. But so what?
In any case I feel sympathy for the person above.
After he stopped those he was left taking antidepressants and tranquilizers
Incidentally the George Zimmerman story. The drugged, since not quite normal, that then set out to hunt other "deviants" out there?
Ok, I didn't proofread the first sentence of my quote. And I am too lazy to delete and correct it. ;)
DeleteI have been gaining a lot of benefits using Lexapro as it alleviates depression. Lexapro has also guided a lot on its weight gain side effects so the users are well informed about it.
ReplyDelete