I asked a reader why it is a relief to know that his ex was a sociopath. His response:Woah, Never thought about that one, I guess it makes me feel better because of two reasons.My response:
First reason would be that it means that I can just let go, As I've read sociopaths can't change, I'm not saying "Can't get better" on purpose because I don't think you're that much different to people who can't see certain colors or can't hear certain tones. If it she can't change that means I have the complete right to let her go and not try to help her and still feel good about myself.
Second reason is that it gives me the right to actually blame everything on her, keep my hands clean as some people say. I guess I sound about low on the empathy when saying that but truthfully that's how I feel.
That reminds me of a comment one of the socio readers once wrote: "Empaths are the idiots who will help anything that's in pain or distress for no other reason than its state." A couple of weeks ago, I witnessed a wild animal intrude on civilization. The animal was in no danger, the area wasn't that urban, but people were so surprised to see it that they began discussing what they should do about it, how they should protect him. To me it seemed bizarrely paternalistic and presumptuous for these people to assume that they knew better than this animal how best to survive, or to see any potential action on their part as anything but unwanted interference. Anyway, I guess you can't help it, but what you said reminded me of seeing people react to that wild animal.Normal people are always trying to do the right thing, God love them, which makes it even more tragic when things like this scene from a television series happen, as described by the New Yorker:
When the three [friends] head out of the city for a day hike, in the first episode, Joe hits a possum in the road and is torn about what to do. He can’t tell whether it’s dead or alive, and he decides that the only humane solution is to make sure it’s dead, so he backs up over it, then pulls ahead again. It becomes clear that the possum is definitely not dead, as they look back and see it walking across the road. Of the three guys in the car, Joe is the most upset by this mess; at first, he thought he might have killed the animal, then he tried to kill the animal, and now he’s left wondering whether it will die because of him. It’s to the show’s credit that this isn’t (only) a metaphor for the uncertainty and the inevitable mistakes of adult life; the scene is viscerally disturbing, and you watch it closely, as if some magical method for undoing irreversible damage will reveal itself, not just to Joe but to you, too.I always say that one of my biggest fears is well-intentioned people, from the Crusades, to the Inquisition, to the colonization of the New World, to everyone who has ever done something "for my own good."
The reader’s response to your question reveals one of the major downsides of being a normal. Why should it matter if his ex was or wasn’t a sociopath? Desire is all the “justification” any of us ever need to do what we want. They tie “feeling good about themselves” with their beliefs about “helping” other people though. Sad but true.
ReplyDeleteThe other thing the reader mentioned was blame. Blame is very important to most people, but it is really a waste. But I won’t repeat myself about responsibility and being at cause in your own life.
The paternalistic side of wanting to help those who haven’t asked for it is also a good point. But perhaps that’s part of the point. The helper gets to feel better about himself, which is all that really matters to them, isn't it?
Finally, I LOL when I read the New Yorker story. The road to hell is paved with "good" intentions.
Have you considered the upsides to this kind of thinking? Have you considered the downsides to your way of thinking? From a group perspective, or just from the perspective of the individual?
ReplyDeleteSure, it stinks to wonder if you're at fault, but in the grand scheme of things, it greases the wheels of social stability and continuous improvement. If nobody is blamed, or if the person blamed doesn't experience guilt or shame, the group doesn't improve. I look at inconveniences such as the above like neutral prerequisites for the stable progress of the group, not unlike how motor oil is needed to keep a car running smoothly. All the "downsides" that come with extracting, refining, buying, and using motor oil are necessary evils, which, to me at least, means they can't rightly be considered evils.
In contrast, lack of justification, blame, guilt, and shame--within the group, from the group's perspective--have a lot of downsides with no direct benefits. You are suggesting that these feelings are burdens, but from a group perspective, your way of thinking represents a much greater burden. Most of us are programmed to maintain and improve the stability of the society that provides for us, but sociopathic thinking compels the individual to bite the hand that feeds it. As hard as said individual can get away with. Thankfully, blame and empathic outrage also provide a mechanism for dealing with people like that: depersonification, and all the remorseless and seemingly irrational cruelty that come along with it.
Not trying to argue, DB, or call you a parasite (at least not with negative connotations), just noting the differences between my view and yours.
Why did M.E. start writing with capitalization?. . .
ReplyDeleteAlso, Peter, a sociopath operates self-interested by nature. In most cases, they burden the group they are in.
Hmmm... I think what you mean is that in ALL cases they burden the group they are in.
DeleteHi,
ReplyDelete"Why should it matter if his ex was or wasn’t a sociopath?"
I think any "normal" person would want to know if they had been involved with someone that had no capacity to truly reciprocate feelings of love. No empath goes into a relationship for the theatrical performance that a sociopath puts on to lead the empath into believing that there is something more than indifference involved.
"They tie “feeling good about themselves” with their beliefs about “helping” other people though. Sad but true."
This is tied together in a way that a sociopath could not begin to understand. To understand this requires empathy. When an empath helps another individual, it requires an understanding of how that individual would feel in that particular given situation. Because an empath can feel it so strongly, it is almost painful to not do the thing that would be called for in that situation. It is like second nature to help another. The empath does not walk away thinking I'm such a great person, look what I did (although I have no doubts that those types are out there) but instead the person feels good for the moment (mostly for the other person) that they were able to help. The good feeling that they get for themself is the feeling of knowing they could create some kind of good will. In most circumstances there is no expectation of anything in return and the good deed gets forgotten about rather quickly. The only expectation that the empath may have is that others may reach out to them in times of need eg: helping to change a flat tire etc. This is not really an expectation as much as it is a general outlook on life.
"Blame is very important to most people, but it is really a waste."
I don't see that blame is a waste. It is a necessary part of processing many negative experiences that we have, which in this case we are talking about relationships. It is part of processing what happened. Most people, when a relationship is ending want to understand where things went wrong. The blame is usually on both sides. It is necessary to do this to make sense of the relationship, cut your losses and move on. When we analyze and assign blame we are learning what we will and won't do the next time. This is how our relationships get better and we becomes better partners. Sociopaths are not able to understand this because of the fact that they are able to see relationships by using logic and intelligence rather than understanding how their behavior may have contributed to the feelings of the other person leading to an undesired behavioral response.
I can understand where the reader in this post is coming from. Knowing that someone is a sociopath pretty much let's the empath off the hook. There really is no need for the empath to burdon themselves with guilt, obsession etc over the events that transpired in the relationship with the socio. The relationship would have run it's course regardless of what the empath said, did etc. Of course many emaths are not aware that they have been involved with a socio which is a whole different story. That is like a fate worse than death in the guilt, shame and blame department. For those that knew what they were getting into, it really should be a clean break.
It never is though from the perspective of an empath. Even if there is no blame, guilt, shame etc, there is still a bonding which creates longing and in end leads to a mourning that is inescapable, provided that the empath really gave a damn.
Zan
I try to blame my ex but none of my friends, the two that I told, or anyone on here has enabled me to do that. I guess I can blame him for being deceiving and me for believing him without evidence to support his sincerity. So they cancel each other out and with that said..no one is to blame. This all seems like a dream I had as though it didn’t really happen..weird. What I do feel is that he brought the worst out in me and I did nothing to him, that I know of. I asked him to tell me if I did something wrong but he just rehashed some crap about me lying to his ex wife about a trip we took..he told me to lie to her..lol. His explanations had no substance to them.
ReplyDeleteThe thing about blaming is that it will be much harder for me to recover from this relationship because then the only way I will feel better is if he apologizes to me but that will never happen. So I was stuck with this need from him for closure. It will never happen and my brain knows that, it’s my heart I struggle with. I realized just before I went through most of the day without thinking of him..that’s a good sign.
Grace
PP said, Not trying to argue, DB, or call you a parasite (at least not with negative connotations), just noting the differences between my view and yours.
ReplyDeleteCool beans home skillet. I understood everything you said. But frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn. I’m not being argumentative either. I literally don’t care about the group or its perspective. What matters most to me is my own subjective state.
Btw,do you expect me to believe that you care enough about the good of the many that you are willing to inflict emotional suffering onto yourself if you thought it would help “grease the wheels of social stability”? Spare me.
TANGENT: Your Sealite and Phantom comments cracked me up!
Zan -
ReplyDeletePain is an inside job: So many normal people go into relationships with a distorted view of both themselves and other people. Distortion and ignorance are the real causes of emotional pain, not so called sociopaths, empaths, mommy, daddy or anyone else.
The empathic outlook: Linking my own internal state to other peoples’ sounds like slavery to me. Needless slavery at that.
Blame: People either take responsibility for their lives and their own emotional states or they don’t. Everyone is free to play the blame game. I find it disempowering myself. Blame makes you vulnerable to the person you are blaming. It chains you to him/her. Releasing blame is a surefire way to break that chain and reclaim your freedom.
Self burdening: The reader needn’t bother burdening himself with guilt or obsession, period. No one needs to label their ex with a personality disorder to get on with life unburdened.
Your way is fine Zan. I assume it works for you. It sounds like an unnecessarily painful way to go thru life though.
The thing about blaming is that it will be much harder for me to recover from this relationship because then the only way I will feel better is if he apologizes to me but that will never happen.
ReplyDeleteZackley! Let go of blaming your ex and needing him to say or do anything and get the hell on with it Princess Grace!
Three comments in a row Daniel... Really? I'm going to start calling myself aspie...
Post as much as you like Daniel... you can do this without labeling yourself
ReplyDeleteI too felt relieved to perceive that my best friend was most likely an S. I think a lot of the relief was due to that it encouraged me to just blame him for everything that went wrong. It alleviated some guilt I've had. But, truth is, I, a non S, was a bad player in the relationship, and, regardless of his brain orientation, this is a fact. I hope he is at peace.
It wouldn't be my first choice, no, but it's something pretty much every empath does, including myself. But I will spare you a tirade about perfect altruism, since we all know that's a farce.
ReplyDelete"So many normal people go into relationships with a distorted view of both themselves and other people."
ReplyDeleteRegardless of what a person is, it is impossible to go into a relationship without a distorted view of the other. People are never completely themselves when they first enter a relationship.
"Your way is fine Zan. I assume it works for you. It sounds like an unnecessarily painful way to go thru life though"
Welcome to my world...lol. It's the only way I know. It can be very painful. It is my guess that that is all part of being an empath. Sometimes I really do believe that socios have the better deal. I really do find life to be more painful than not. The more I seek out joy, the more pain I seem to end up with. I am sure that I could improve on that. I suppose it has to do with expectations.
"It wouldn't be my first choice, no, but it's something pretty much every empath does, including myself. But I will spare you a tirade about perfect altruism, since we all know that's a farce."
Not a complete farce, Peter. There are glimmers and shades of true altruism mixed in with all the mess. I have seen people do really amazing things, including losing their own life to save another.
BTW, sorry for my long post last night. I was tired when I wrote it and did not realize until it posted how long it was. Hope you all have a great day. Go do something nice for someone, maybe help a lil ole lady across the street...lol. Please don't call me Mary Poppins.
Zan
Oh, one more thing....don't steal her purse!
ReplyDeleteZan
"People are never completely themselves when they first enter a relationship."
ReplyDeleteSo true Zan!!
Zan, people like you and I don't usually experience or see things as black and white, unless we are forced to. Many things we experience have variables to them. Sociopaths are much more lanier...black and white. This seems to be even truer when they describe empaths. We can try to express our thoughts and feelings but they don't get it. I think the best we can hope for is an open mind. But that's just with intellectual stuff...never emotional stuff. If by chance a sociopath falls in love with you or me, it’s because of the perfume we wore or they just caught us at the right second when everything about us made sense to them.
Grace
"If by chance a sociopath falls in love with you or me,"
ReplyDeleteHi Grace,
It's not love. It's not even lust. If it's about sex, it's about control and dominance. I think what they "fall in love" with is merely the perception of opportunity. The "perfume" you are speaking of is the scent of money. That perfume is custom made for the socios.
Zan
Neither style of thinking is better or worse for all situations. What matters is whether or not helping someone else helps you in the long term. If it's a good investment to make then you make the investment. But you don't make the investment in someone else who will hurt you in the future or hurt many others because thats a waste of investment.
ReplyDeleteEmpaths who have objectives don't help others to feel good about themselves, they help others to empower themselves. As an example, I'm not a homosexual, I'm not a homosexual woman, but I'd help a homosexual woman empower herself if she believes that individual liberty is important. This indirectly helps me, in the long term it helps everyone, in the short term it helps that one person.
The cause being self empowerment, individual liberty, human rights, civil rights, is bigger than the smaller causes. So you help lesbian Jane get married to lesbian Jill so that they can help you do what you want to do. This allows both of you to do what you want to do, but you have to cooperate to win.
It's this level of thinking that causes people to help others. It starts with having objectives or causes, and the ends justify the means. Sometimes you have to help people you don't like personally, sometimes you get to help people you like personally, but this is how deals are made. You do a favor for a favor in return. It's selfish but this is why rational empaths do good things.
The point of my post is that it doesn't matter how a persons brain works as long as they are a team player. You have similar goals? You both want to win? You'll have to utilize both empaths and sociopaths to do it.If you don't like to think of it like that, it means you'll have to do favors for people to get things don't, and people have to do favors for you, and as long as people are with the team and pay back whatever they borrow or owe, then it works.
Whether they feel guilt or not has nothing to do with the punishment. The punishment is the punishment, the reward is the reward, the objectives are the objectives, you cooperate or you get run over
Daniel:"The empathic outlook: Linking my own internal state to other peoples’ sounds like slavery to me. Needless slavery at that."
But you fail to understand that economics are intrinsically linked to the internal emotional states of other people. You profit from their emotional states, and when their emotional states turn sour then you lose the ability to make money. If someone likes you, or loves you, they'll be more likely to give you work. If you don't factor in their emotions at all then in the long term you hurt yourself through loss of potential profits.
If you think my logic is wrong, show me where?
@Grace you seek to blame as an emotional outlet. Is your ex useful to you or not? That is all that matters.
ReplyDeleteIf he's not useful, meaning if you needed him and it's something hes personally good at doing, can you make a phone call and receive assistance?
If the answer is no, then you have no reason to ever think of your ex as emotively relevant again. In fact why would you even think about your ex at all? If you want to blame someone you have to blame yourself for foolishly falling into his arms/trap.
Now you have to move on, and in the future you have to figure out how much the individual is worth before you invest your emotions into them. If the individual the type of individual who cannot love? If they cannot love, are they able to do favors and help you in some way? If they cannot do either of these things don't waste your time.
"Also, Peter, a sociopath operates self-interested by nature. In most cases, they burden the group they are in."
ReplyDeleteAnd thats when their behavior is not in their self interest.
@ Zan
ReplyDeleteDon't make silly assumptions about people now, little dearie. "It's not even lust. If it's about sex, it's about control and dominance."
Actually, it happens to be curiousity, and some crazy desire to have the ability to make immaculate maps out of your internal beings. I think when it gets down to it, we want to cut you open and understand you so well that we ARE you. And maybe that's because we're nobody.
*Sips coffee*
ReplyDeleteMmmm is that so...
"Savagelight,"
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your name.
Is that supposed to mean that you are a savage, and you have a device that provides light? Or that your mind is illuminated, and you've come to the realization that we're all savages?
I find myself steering clear of activities such as rolling in mud, eating raw meat, and other such vulgarities.
Forgive me, I'm cranky.
Strawberry, the word, "curiosity," does not have a U in it, stupid.
ReplyDelete"Not a complete farce, Peter. There are glimmers and shades of true altruism mixed in with all the mess. I have seen people do really amazing things, including losing their own life to save another."
ReplyDeleteNotice your choice of words, Zan. "mixed in with all the mess."
I'll give you a couple examples, Daniel.
ReplyDeleteI've had many, many, many opportunities to scam people--without getting caught. Instead of scamming them, I willfully give up potential personal comfort for their benefit.
I also threw away one of my oldest friendships in an effort to get her out of an abusive relationship. It's been over a year since then, and she now hates said abusive ex after seeing his true colors; however, she still refuses to talk to me. The important thing, to me anyway, is that she's out of that situation and doing much better in life. I definitely wouldn't have chosen to lose that friendship if I didn't have to, but in that situation, her well-being was more important than mine. I can find more friends, but she only has one life to live.
Now, that's not perfect altruism, because there's something to be gained for me in the way of having a reputation for integrity, but that wasn't one of my foremost thoughts in any of those situations. Plus, I'm incredibly selfish many other times.
Zan said:"The "perfume" you are speaking of is the scent of money. That perfume is custom made for the socios."
ReplyDeleteLOL! right on. I guess I stink cause I'm broke. luv ya Zan!!
Strawberry said:"I think when it gets down to it, we want to cut you open and understand you so well that we ARE you. And maybe that's because we're nobody"
That's an interesting statement.
maybe you could tell more..
Grace
Germ: "And thats when their behavior is not in their self interest."
ReplyDeleteCould you elaborate? I think I see what you're trying to imply, but I'm not sure.
Oh, by the way, Daniel, you don't look so ivory intellectual when you tell someone to fuck off. It really tarnishes your integrity.
ReplyDeleteSL: If you think my logic is wrong, show me where?
ReplyDeleteYour logic isn’t wrong. You are just responding to a point I wasn’t making. When I said my emotional state is independent of other people’s, I was literally talking about my own thoughts, feelings and self concept. Who I am and how I feel in no way depends on me believing someone else has a personality disorder, for instance.
PP: What can I say other than I am happy for you? If you are telling the truth, than I am happy that you have a modicum of integrity.
Oh who am I kidding? I’m neither happy nor unhappy for you. It was the first thing that sprang to mind after I finished reading your response. In my defense, I’ve grown accustomed to uttering these kinds of inanities IRL. Just pull my string and I say things I don’t mean to grease those wheels you referred to earlier.
Aspie: Post as much as you like Daniel... you can do this without labeling yourself
Aspie the Prolific has returned! HOORAH!
Grace and Zan: Different strokes for different folks ladies. I wouldn’t trade my inner coolness for all of your emotional hoopla. Yes, there are pros and cons to both ways of being in the world. I get that. But all that useless drama… “I love you! But I need to know who you are for our love to be real, because if it isn’t real, then I won’t know who I am and what is the right thing to do and can I leave if you aren’t a sociopath and it’s all so damn hard!” Imagine my voice rising with each word. Bleh, I’m glad I have the option of passing on all that.
2: Wha…?
Not caring about me and my life, I can understand. Not caring about the fallacy of your own assumptions... now that's just silly. And that's a nice way of putting it. I'm trying to cut back on the big R word.
ReplyDeleteDB.I have inner coolness too you know..lol. It's just different than yours.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I'm too dramatic really. I think I have toned it down a bit. I don't communicate drama well either unless it's face to face. Sometimes I'm funny about it all if I have a few drinks in me..he he. Zan expresses herself well. She knows how to put the thoughts(feelings)into words and sentences. It's a talent. I have to keep it simple or I will sound like a babbling idiot...I'm more abstract in my head.
Feelings give way to drama no doubt about it and that's why you can pass on it and I need to mess with it. Maybe I should go lesbian..wonder if that would be easier. lol
Grace
PP: Not caring about the fallacy of your own assumptions... now that's just silly.
ReplyDeleteRead my lips. I. Don't. Care. That I do not care to play the blame game or about punishing myself for the greater good or about group whatever is not the end result of philosophical cogitation. That lack of emotion is not based on assumptions, faulty or otherwise. It's the result of me not caring. It just so happens that you have not sufficiently demonstrated why logic inexorably proves that I must care in order to be rational.
Why should I be good, Peter Pan? Why should I care about doing the right thing, even when no one is watching? I bet you can't conjure up a convincing argument for why someone without the emotional capacity to appreciate morality for its own sake should be good nevertheless.
Yes, that was a challenge. Or...
And that's a nice way of putting it. I'm trying to cut back on the big R word.
You could decide not to "cut back". We both know you want to get to the part where you insult me or make a nonsensical argument about nothing and I decide to ignore you. Shall we cut to the chase then? ;-)
Btw, everything above should be read in a light hearted tone, capiche? That's where I'm at right now. Can't take this stuff too seriously. It'll give you ulcers. Or something.
Princess Grace, a few points.
ReplyDeleteBy coolness I wasn't trying to say I was too cool for school. I was referring more to frostiness. I'm usually the coldest person in any room I'm in.
Don't sell yourself short. You do a good job of expressing yourself also.
What I don't like about stoopid human drama is that from my perspective, there is usually little to nothing worthwhile to gain from it. When I was younger, I literally couldn't get it. If there wasn't money or power involved (societal power) I thought, what the hell was all the drama for? Now that I am older, I grok it. It's about ego and morals and unresolved childhood issues and hormones masquerading as "love" and emotions run amok, blah, blah, blah. Mostly it's about fear. Even though I get it, I still think most of it is colossally stoopid.
Finally, you should totally go lesbian! Send pictures of your first "experiment". :-)
What would you get from those pictures if you don't feel anything ?
DeleteOh, Daniel, there you go digging yourself deeper and deeper into the pit of obvious retardation, threatening to use the only defense mechanism you have: denial and departure.
ReplyDelete"Btw,do you expect me to believe that you care enough about the good of the many that you are willing to inflict emotional suffering onto yourself if you thought it would help “grease the wheels of social stability”? Spare me."
That was your assumption, and what you said just now was a tirade about... well, nothing.
But at least you managed to drag the truth out of me. Daniel Birdick is a retard.
Of course, it's all in good fun.
By the way, I think you've been operating under the false assumption that I think you should be any particular way. I don't, Danny boy. I don't care if you're selfish or cold hearted. Hell, I don't care if you rape politicians and give fellatio to goats. Whatever floats your boat is fine with me, but I do enjoy discussing it--preferably without so much defensive bullshit getting in the way.
ReplyDeleteGood Morning! I see it was a rather eventful night while I was in Z land ZZZZZZZZ....had a great night of sleep and I am having my morning coffee enjoying all your posts!
ReplyDeleteGrace,
"luv ya Zan!!"
" Maybe I should go lesbian..wonder if that would be easier. lol"
Luv ya too girl! Let do it, let's go lesbo! Hell I'm definitey up for an easier life. If I encounter one more socio man in my life, I swear it will kill me! BTW, thank u for the compliment regarding how I express myself. Don't sell yourself short woman. You communicate very well and have valuable insight to bring to the table.
Daniel
"I wouldn’t trade my inner coolness for all of your emotional hoopla."
I completely understand what you are saying here. If I were a socio and could not relate to the feelings behind the drama, I can only imagine how ridiculous it would all look. It's actually quite laughable to me when I see it from your perspective. It would be like watching an action packed movie with the sound turned off. Being a socio in a world full of drama, I am sure requires alot patience on your part. Just understand that the drama is not just for nothing and that it comes from the emotional dimension of ourselves that you did not come into this world with. I think we cannot completey understand each other because we are not hardwired the same but we can respect each other and understand that we are behaving within the "norm" for how we were made. It just simply boils down to acceptance of the other for who they are. That is a choice. I believe that acceptance leads to a life that is so much richer because we can live with, learn from and value each other.
Peter.
"The important thing, to me anyway, is that she's out of that situation and doing much better in life."
What a great thing that you did for your friend! When a woman is in an abusive relationship, it is often hard for the woman to even see that she is being abused because so much of the abuse is stealth abuse. It can almost be impossible to get out and it takes a very long time once out to get over it. I think that one day probably a long time from now your friend will realize what a powerful difference you made in her life. She will thank you and your friendship will be stronger than ever.
Strawberry-"I think when it gets down to it, we want to cut you open and understand you so well that we ARE you. And maybe that's because we're nobody"
I think you meant this figuratively. Yes, that is exactly right, sociopaths dissect you and become you until they get bored and it is time for them to become someone else. When you referred to yourself as "nobody" I think that you meant that you are nobody because you lack feelings that give you a sense of yourself, am I correct? You are not "nobody". I don't know how long you have been on this site, but if you read the posts, the other socios would not consider themselves "nobodys" They are very intelligent and have a strong sense of themselves, feelings aside. Can you describe what you meant by the fact that you think that you are nobody?
Well, here's another long post. Can't blame it on being tired this time. Let's just say I am speeding on my coffee...lol. You guys just have to stop being so damned interesting to me. Then I will shut up...lol!
Zan
PP: So cut to the chase it is then. Tis a shame. My challenge was more invitation than insult. Nor was I in any way being defensive. Ah well, as always you are welcome to believe whatever floats your boat.
ReplyDeleteAs for my assumption, I no more believe you are an empathic, caring, altruistic soul than I believe you have multiple personalities or that you are as insightful as you think you are. I do however believe you love to play the role of troll/spoiler. You go on other sites for that sole purpose. It's a little sad, really. Even so, I say play on playa! Meanwhile I'll be saving my eyes and comemnting for other posters who don't need to result to childish name calling.
Zanderful, you hit it on the nail. Only it is more like watching a movie, sound on, enjoying yourself and then discovering that the actors aren't pretending. They believe in everything they are saying and doing and wondering why I, the confused and hapless viewer can't buy into it. They might even be tempted to label me "pathological" as a result of my total lack of buy in.
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the main reasons I don't engage in useless arguing here or anywhere else. What on earth do you gain? Literally, what makes it worthwhile to people chock full of emotion, other than ego? And by ego, I am not referring to the Freudian version. I define ego as a person's beliefs and recurring emotions around who they "know" they are. I have an entire theory around this but I won't share it now because it will involve writing one of those long ass ginormous comments everyone hates me for.
But you have piqued my curiosity. What do you think you gain when you have/had an argument with a "loved one" for the umpteenth time? Power I understand. That is what I suspect drives a lot of it I see, although again, the kind of power being fought over seems absurd to me. And of course most of you can't admit to yourselves that it is a desire for power that is driving your conflict with your so called loved one. Speaking of... Love, I suppose is a tad more understandable, although it seems to me that what passes for love among normals amounts to little more than a witches brew of unfinished business from childhood, hormones and genes. But what does it all mean to you? Are you at peace with your family Zan? This question ties in with everything I have said in my response to you.
Whooops. I misspelled "commenting" in my response to Peter Piper. Oh well. Even the great and powerful Daniel Birdick isn't perfect. :-)
ReplyDeleteYour perfectly imperfect!
DeleteOops...
Delete'you're'.
Daniel,
ReplyDeleteI think that this conversation is really great. It is really about understanding the other and not about knocking each other down. That to me is what is useful. You ask some very good questions that people who lack a basic understanding of sociopathology might just write off as being ignorant. I certainy can understand that you would have those questions. If you have to be subjected to drama that you cannot personally understand from an emotional level, at least you could have a logical, intellectual understanding which would make it maybe somewhat more tolerable.
"What on earth do you gain? Literally, what makes it worthwhile to people chock full of emotion, other than ego?"
Daniel, this very much depends on the people,the situation, their intelligence and their understanding of themselves and the other person. It would be easy for you to understand it if the drama were about gaining something tangible like money or custody of the children etc. But when it comes to meeting the emotional needs that are inherant with empaths such as love, honesty, trust etc and the byproduct emotions that can result such as feelings of betrayal, longing, sadness, etc, that is where we empaths lose you. We see relationships as an investment to meet the emotional needs which our creater gave us. They exist within us just as much as our heart, lungs, arms and legs. They cannot be ignored. If we try to ignore them, we end up with physical ailments or depression. It is a whole dimension of ourselves that we have to address as much as we often don't want to and it would make our life so much easier if we didn't these emotions that we have to deal with. If we learn how to deal with our emotions in a healthy, mature way, then we gain a life of peace, contentment and an ability to live in our own skin. We are able to relate to others in the world in a way that brings us joy. We are free from isolation and just maybe we might have a intimate, satisfying relationship that brings us much happiness. Because people in the world come from so many fucked up situations and so many are not emotionally healthy, able and willing to see the other person's perspective, often the emotions collide, creating the drama that you see. Also people don't all have the same emotional needs and wants or some needs are stronger for some than for others. Some people just simply are born with stronger emotions than others or due to family history, life experience etc, some might be more sensitive than others. Many times it is simply an attempt to get the other to understand our needs and vice-versa so that a compromise can be made and we can meet each other's needs in a satisfying way. That makes sense to those of us that were born with those needs. Can you logically and intellectually understand this, Daniel. Next time you hear drama, think to yourself in a logical way, what is the need that the person who is creating the drama trying to satisfy? If you can ask yourself that question each time, maybe it will become more interesting to you rather than some kind of garbage that you have to tune out. Maybe it could become kind of like a game. Just a thought. I don't blame you if you simply don't want to waste your time. It's probably better for you if you don't. I empathize with the fact that you have had to live with this your whole life. I would imagine that it would be like living a life where there is a constant inside joke that you are not a part of. Am I right?
Zan
"Could you elaborate? I think I see what you're trying to imply, but I'm not sure."
ReplyDeleteIt's not in your self interest to burdern your group. It's like a wolf that attacks and damages it's pack or a bee that destroys it's hive, when you weaken your group you diminish your chances of survival. Sociopaths often end up exiled from their group and left to survive alone with no support, this has unintended consequences for the sociopath. This is why it's in the best interest of the sociopath to be the ideal family member, friend, and partner, and keep the destructive side of themselves focused on the people who deserve it or who aren't in that group.
I go out of my way not to burden certain people but other people who clearly don't like me very much, and who deserve to be burdened, they get the full burden.
@Daniel
ReplyDeleteYou ask in your post why you should do good deeds when nobody is looking, the reason is somebody is almost always looking. We don't live in a vacuum. You damage somebody and then they tell all their friends, you damage enough somebodies and you become known as a damager, and once you become labeled a damager you typically find yourself in jail, prison, or worse.
So you have to be nice enough to people just to avoid their wrath and the wrath of society. You don't have to do good things for complete strangers or people who cannot do for you, but it's usually a wise decision to do good things for people you know or who can do good things for you because it's a form of trade.
I guess it's just a way of getting things done. Knowing when to play nice. Knowing how to be good. Most people learn this growing up when they want to get gifts for xmas and they know to be good in the month before xmas to win favor with their parents in hopes that they'll be rewarded with the gift they were asking for.
Of course I fully understand why you wouldn't be good in a society designed like the one we have. There are very few incentives to being good and an enormous amount of punishments for just being.
Daniel, you lost this one. The name calling didn't start until your defensive attitude got in the way of the discussion. It sent you off on random tangents and professions of "not caring" about assumptions you yourself had just made. Where I come from, not caring whether or not you're right is called self deception, and the complicated dance you're doing now to avoid admitting you don't care about the validity of your thoughts and integrity of your own thought process is called deflection and denial. But sure, let's make it about you not caring about my personal life. That's nice and easy.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with all that. You can't keep all these people fooled forever. :)
PP: "You can't keep all these people fooled forever. :)"
ReplyDeleteNo, he can't, Peter Pan.
At least, not someone (Oh god am I seriously grouping myself with PP for once? Cue universe explosion.) like ourselves.
Besides, I had high hopes for Daniel. He crashed and burned, just as all stars explode.
PS - Dan, you're playing the fool card if you honestly don't know what my comment meant.
Germ: "It's not in your self interest to burdern your group. It's like a wolf that attacks and damages it's pack or a bee that destroys it's hive, when you weaken your group you diminish your chances of survival. Sociopaths often end up exiled from their group and left to survive alone with no support, this has unintended consequences for the sociopath. This is why it's in the best interest of the sociopath to be the ideal family member, friend, and partner, and keep the destructive side of themselves focused on the people who deserve it or who aren't in that group.
I go out of my way not to burden certain people but other people who clearly don't like me very much, and who deserve to be burdened, they get the full burden."
This is actually logical and I hope I did not imply that I, as a sociopath, burden the group. I actually operate almost to the T of how you just described. I usually don't go out of my way to give out burden to anyone specific, though.
Zan, I'm not so sure that will happen. I had to pretend to be the couple's friend for around 6 months assess the situation, give her boyfriend a chance to show improvement, and prevent him from labeling me one of the "bad guys" before I could sink my teeth in. When I did finally act, it was pretty out of nowhere. I'm sure from her perspective, I look like a backstabbing asshole. Even for a good cause, generally people don't like people who do things like I did. Her family still loves me, but as for her... I have a feeling she'll always feel betrayed and unsure of my motives.
ReplyDeleteOh, 2, c'mon now, we can be buddies. Let's go get drunk! WOooooOOOOOOO!!!
ReplyDeletePP: "Oh, 2, c'mon now, we can be buddies. Let's go get drunk! WOooooOOOOOOO!!!"
ReplyDeleteHey, while we're on the topic of DB, ten bucks if you can guess why DB drug your personal life into the comment earlier.
He feels threatened by me, and in the past, I've responded pretty favorably (for the opposition) when my personal life was brought into question. Easy out for him.
ReplyDeletePP: "He feels threatened by me, and in the past, I've responded pretty favorably (for the opposition) when my personal life was brought into question. Easy out for him."
ReplyDeleteTen bucks to you, sir. Ten bucks to you.
@2 if you understand that it's all about the happiness of the group then you might be able to understand the logic of utilitarian ethics. That which makes your group happy is usually considered "right", and that which makes your group miserable is usually considered "wrong", as the ultimate goal of a utilitarian is the greater good (translated to mean the overall happiness) of the members of the group.
ReplyDeleteSo for that reason we have to care how our girlfriend feels because when we make her feel good, later on she will make us feel good. We care how our friends feel because those friends help us out when we get into a jam, and this assistance and support keeps us from feeling bad or from felling the full effect of the environment. The parents protect the children and make them happy in hopes that when they are old their children will return the favor.
If you really are a sociopath and you understand that the happiness of your group has personal value to you, then you are a lot more advanced than the low functioning sociopaths, you may even be ethical if you can grasp utilitarianism as act utilitarians usually are sociopaths but act utilitarians are just as important to the world as rule utilitarians (which is what I consider myself.)
Whoever runs this blog should probably look into whether or not sociopaths can be ethical under act utilitarianism. I think it is possible because in asian societies and in certain societies in the west you can see that some people will make statements like "I'd do anything to make/keep them happy" and they truly mean it.There are empaths like this too but the empaths may follow rules so that there are some things they will refuse to do, like torture or kill women and children, and thats generally because empaths have built in mechanisms to prevent them from being able to do this without feeling bad.
Anyway 2 it's an interesting discussion.
DB: "By coolness I wasn't trying to say I was too cool for school. I was referring more to frostiness. I'm usually the coldest person in any room I'm in."
ReplyDeleteLOL oh ok DB. I didn't get it.
It's amazing how well you guys can follow each other’s comments so well. There's a good flow to it considering the context of it all. Wouldn't it be fun if it were a group therapy situation instead? My jaw would be on the floor permanently!
above from Grace.
ReplyDeleteWhy thank you Zan. You explained that pretty well. I do get it intellectually. It is hard, however, for me to fathom it emotionally.
ReplyDeleteI do admit, sometimes I find the whole thing fascinating. Sometimes. It still seems to me though that even in the context of having an overabundance of feelings that there are smarter ways to manage your emotional needs. But oh well… As I keep saying, to each his own.
SL: I get it. My question was about morality at large, as in why bother being good in and of itself, hence my question about people not watching. But you made some fair points about morality from a more utilitarian perspective. (And no, I’m not referring to the utilitarianism proper. I know that’s a whole other can of worms.)
Grace: LOL! This conversation is nothing really. Well, nothing particularly profound at any rate.
Why thank you Zan. You explained that pretty well. I do get it intellectually. It is hard, however, for me to fathom it emotionally.
ReplyDeleteI do admit, sometimes I find the whole thing fascinating. Sometimes. It still seems to me though that even in the context of having an overabundance of feelings that there are smarter ways to manage your emotional needs. But oh well… As I keep saying, to each his own.
SL: I get it. My question was about morality at large, as in why bother being good in and of itself, hence my question about people not watching. But you made some fair points about morality from a more utilitarian perspective. (And no, I’m not referring to the utilitarianism proper. I know that’s a whole other can of worms.)
Grace: LOL! This conversation is nothing really. Well, nothing particularly profound at any rate.
Damn! Double posting. Hmmm. I really have lost my divine, inerrant perfection somewhere...
ReplyDelete@Daniel I don't know if one should be good for the sake of being good. I know it's important to be nice to people if possible, but to be good? I think there are inherent risks involved with being good to strangers. If someone is willing to accept the risks thats their choice, I suppose it depends on their position.
ReplyDeleteThis conversation reminds me of a book I read about accountability in organizations called The Oz Principal. The idea behind the book is that everyone remotely involved in circumstances takes personal accountability. In the book it had actions that were below the line: Ignore/Denial, Its not my job, Fingerpointing, Confusion (tell me what to do), Cover your tail, Wait and see.
ReplyDeleteThe fact the author of this article said s/he can now identify the other figure in the relationship a sociopath puts the author at ease. Passing strange that a diagnosis by the author, with no credentials mind you, would have such a effect. Its more strange that the sociopathic bucket seems to be full of blame by victims of all walks of life.
Peoples love lives have become the diabolical scheme of a secret society. Sociopaths. They walk the streets peering into your very soul. Breaking hearts during the day, eating babies at night.
Whoever wrote this is still broken. You need to do what your friends told you not to do. Blame yourself. Take accountability for your actions. The other person in the relationship is something YOU allowed.
Sociopaths smell the perfume of weakness, Grace. That weakness means opportuntiy. Money is not a constant want among all sociopathic personalities, but power is.
The funniest thing about this email is the fact that the author is now breathing easier now that s/he passed the blame along. I laughed. I bellowed I guess you would say.
I for one would be first to say people deserve each other. The fact that every low life mooch is being associated to being the same as every sociopath is disturbing to say the least. It shows me that every bottomed out weak victim now has a buck to pass. Has it crossed your mind that you were on the level that your ex was at? The bottom. Do you think most sociopaths waste their time cleaning weak poor victims bank accounts and using you people for sex? What a waste of time.
Sociopaths are mentally ill. They aren't all the same with the exact same characteristics. But here are the main ones (and not the ones in the DSM-IV). They have no empathy because they have no respect for anyone or anything. They are extremely arrogant. They think nothing is wrong with them. At first, you might mistake this for self-esteem or self-confidence. It isn't. It's pride (and not the good kind). They have contempt for normal people. They believe them to be weak. Medical science has given a set of characteristics and behaviors a name and a label, but they haven't been able to explain the why. Why would people behave like a sociopath behaves?
ReplyDeleteBecause they can. Because they have no conscience. Because they are arrogant. Because they have no compassion. Because they have no humility. Because they have no remorse. Because God gives everyone freewill and some people are just assholes. And for those who don't believe in God, because some people just have no "morals." Sociopaths know what most people believe to "right" and "wrong," but they don't pay attention to that. Why would they? Those "rules" were made up by lesser beings.
It's simple and the definition is in black and white. They know the difference between right and wrong, THEY JUST DON'T GIVE A....
They don't want to follow any rules besides the rules they make that suit their selfish desires. They could choose to follow rules of decent behavior, but that conflicts with self-interest. They could choose to have empathy, but that takes away from "self-love." (And they love like no other, trouble is they only love themselves...lol)
Why anyone would want to be around a person like that (who also believes him or herself to be superior to you) is beyond me. They are truly "anti-social" (hence the disorder), they basically have no interest in being part of a group. They believe themselves to be superior, so how can they belong to one?
Every sociopath shares one common characteristic. They are extremely arrogant. They feel entitled. Essentially, they behave like spoiled, arrogant brats.
You ask why anyone would be around this mentally ill person. What attracted you to such a malcontant, anonymous?
ReplyDelete@UK:"Sociopaths smell the perfume of weakness, Grace"
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should define weakness. Are you just talking about sociopaths relative to empaths? I mean being an empath doesn't make me weak does it? Maybe to a sociopath it does but nowhere else in my life. Not saying I’m otherwise perfect with people though. My friends, lovers or whoever never treated me like that. I had no experience with it before and no way of knowing my best interest was not in my control. I will say that I should have had more control over the pace of the relationship. But I have let that happen before without such consequences.
I maybe naive, gullible even but not weak. I have learned a lesson from this ex bf. So if fact I'm more knowledgeable now then I was before. But only I care about that. No UK..not weak..at least not the way I am interpreting your message. I hear that a lot around here..empaths are weak victims and such. It’s more like we are unprotected from something we don’t see coming..like a sucker punch. And I do blame myself UK and that’s why I’m not weak..see I can take it.
Grace
I understand what you're saying, Grace. I think it's shallow to the point of almost being a cult to say that sociopaths are strong and others are weak. I don't call people normals, because we are all normal unless you are broken. Everyone has a role. Play your role.
ReplyDeleteWeak is how I define someone who is vulnerable. Sociopaths, from personal experience, pick up on weakness. My theory, and it is only a theory, is that sociopathic people are in our species for its role of leadership for the pack to survive. When a leader of a pack identifies someone who has weakness it raises a alarm. Animals prey on the weak, or in their own pack strengthen them. In this age of alienation and individualism sociopaths run rampant with no pack in some cases. What is a shepard without his flock? A man without his family? A lone wolf.
I can't tell you about your experiences. You know your experiences, and you learn or you don't. It's easy to simplify things. It's easy to blame. It's easy to be complacent. It's weak. It's harder to confront yourself. It's harder to take accountability. It's harder to be someone who stands up for themself and has pride, but that is strength.
I want to clear the bullshit here. If you think sociopaths are hanging on you for your money, you are a loser. You associate with people on your level. If you date a loser you are a loser. If you date weak people you are weak. To date someone like that YOU have to be. Everyone told YOU something was wrong, but YOU chose to pursue it. YOU want to believe he was a mastermind to fool YOU. So every arsehole out there who breaks some bird's heart is now a sociopath? Please. The truth of all the victims is they want to invent yet another escape from themselves. A boogieman. The truth is it doesn't take a sociopath to fool a fool.
Get off this sociopath boyfriend trip. How can you people let someone control your life like that. Have some shame. You got hoodwinked; get over it. If there's something you can learn from this site it is indifference. Replace your anger with that.
UK not every man who's a sociopath is a heartbreaker. I never say that here..because I don't believe that. You’re assuming I would because most empaths might say things like that or believe it but I don't. I guess it's the low functioning ones that are trouble...as far as relationships go.
ReplyDeleteAlso UK: My theory, and it is only a theory, is that sociopathic people are in our species for its role of leadership for the pack to survive. When a leader of a pack identifies someone who has weakness it raises a alarm. Animals prey on the weak, or in their own pack strengthen them. In this age of alienation and individualism sociopaths run rampant with no pack in some cases. What is a shepard without his flock? A man without his family? A lone wolf.
Are you saying that sociopaths missed out on some evolutional train? That it's genetic? I'm not being a smartass but I don't understand that. As if what you’re saying is sociopaths are a very important part of society. I'm not saying it can't be genetic because it might be. I'm just trying to understand.
Grace
No sociopaths didn't miss the evolutionary train. Everyone has a important role to play in society. When you don't fill that role you become broken. Some sociopaths are filling their roles, and the lower functioning ones are not. That's my theory.
ReplyDeleteOk that makes sense to me. I was with a lower functioning one. No money, smart but not living up to his potential, which he knew and it frustrated him and that made him more unhappy. ..stuff like that. Maybe he thouht he was doing me a favor by cutting me off..not that it matters anymore.
ReplyDeleteGrace
Personally, I believe civilization is a sham. I want nothing to do with this society, with its sweaty four walls trapping us in our homes, beating global warming into our faces and attempting to get us to plant carrots. Our society is laughable. Its education system is a dismal failure, its power structure is a cynical joke. Its tenants are drab misery, conformity, the very soul sucking nature that extols an empty life.
ReplyDeleteBut "right" and "wrong" are no tautologous with "society".
I'm incredibly empathetic. I am also self-interested. Being empathetic does not mean losing your self-interest, self-interest is human. But I can put myself quite literally into another person's state. Into their head. I can feel their distresses, I can feel their emotion.
So when I choose to help a person, it is because I perceive that they are in need of it. The question of reciprocity is not mine. I stayed with a friend of mine having a breakdown on an acid trip not because I had any particular reason to do so. I could have went outside and hung out with all of our other friends, which probably where I wanted more badly to be. But I sensed what she needed, I gave it to her, because I knew how to help.
Interestingly enough, the reason she was having a breakdown on that acid trip, was a mutual friend of ours. who is a sociopath. He was sitting outside of her house, with no apparent concern for the fact that he had caused her to have a nervous breakdown.
In a way I feel his diametric polar-I have an abundance of empathy, he has none. I love too much, he cannot love. In another sense we have these uncannily odd similarity. Within our social sphere the two of us come up head to head all the time, my empathy and his callous passivity. It is actually bears a great deal of very hot, very sexual tension.
Meow. Life is very confusing for me.
BD said:"He was sitting outside of her house, with no apparent concern for the fact that he had caused her to have a nervous breakdown."
ReplyDeleteYou better not say that around here:)
Sociopaths don't respond well to being blamed for empaths reactions to their behaviors. And they are pretty much on target about who is really responsible. You can try though..good luck.
Hopefully, I just put that to rest.
Also BB "It is actually bears a great deal of very hot, very sexual tension"
OH YEAH!
Grace
How can people feel sorry for suckers like this one. She's asking for it and she's going to get it. Life is about to get a lot more confusing.
ReplyDeleteBD: "Within our social sphere the two of us come up head to head all the time, my empathy and his callous passivity. It is actually bears a great deal of very hot, very sexual tension."
ReplyDeleteHave sex with him.
Get it over with.
Grace & Zan: I already know you agree with this recommendation. Do not deny it.
Got that right 2! That's something I think we all agree on. lol
ReplyDeleteGrace
Our education system is shit? Relative to what? A fantasy? It's better than it's ever been. Our children are learning shit within the first 10th of their life that people 100 years ago might never learn throughout the entire course of their lives.
ReplyDeleteNah, our education system is fucking wonderful, and so is our society. Of course, if you compare it to a fantasy, it's going to fall short. The life of Bill Gates is shit compared to the fantasy life of a God.
EEE-FUCKING-RELEVANT!
Now, tell me what kind of life people would have without this so-called four-wall sham? Let me guess, that's another fantasy, eh? 6 billion people without walls or environmental concerns... good luck!
You sir or madam are an idiot who bases his or her perception of reality on his or her own fantasies. You are unhappy, and you will remain unhappy, because the only things that will make you happy... are impossible.
That's a very illogical way to live your life.
I love our society.
I love it so much I want to marry it and have little Peter-Civilization babies.
I am a mother of three children and the man I am married to seems to have every symptom none to man as a sociopath. I want him to leave us alone but I am afraid to ask him to leave so I try to be subtle about asking him to leave I don't want me or the kids to get hurt and don't know what to do it scares me I don't want to confront him but he is not afraid of murder mor anything else what should I do!
ReplyDeletedon't know if anyone here can really help you with advice as to what to do. Maybe you could seek help for yourself with a therapist for guidence. Get a professional opinion about him. There are no professionals here. Sounds like your in a dangerous situation so for godsake get REAL help.
ReplyDeleteGrace
I'm not going to bite.
ReplyDelete"My theory, and it is only a theory, is that sociopathic people are in our species for its role of leadership for the pack to survive."
ReplyDeleteSociopaths don't care about the pack. Thats why they are sociopaths and that is the main flaw of the sociopath. Sociopaths never make effective leaders, they make good enforcers but to be an effective leader you need empathy and you need to value the life you are responsible for protecting.
Strength and weakness have little to do with whether or not one is a sociopath. It has to do with how much power one has, and how they make use of it. If you seriously think about it, there is no behavior that a sociopath can adopt, that an empath cannot adopt. This means the sociopath and empath are equals. The only difference is the motivation behind the behavior of the empath typically different than the motivation behind the behavior of the sociopath. The sociopath will see only what they can gain from any behavior and will not necessarily focus on whether or not it's in their packs best interest. Some sociopaths even sell out their pack "snitching" on their pack when it's in their personal gain to do so. A sociopath would have no conscience and no voice in the back fo their head to stop them from selling people out.
That being said anybody can be put in a position to sell out, I'm just saying a sociopath wont think twice about it because consider this, if somebody offered your sociopath best friend 10 million dollars to murder you, and if that sociopath knew for sure they could get away with it, do you think that sociopath would think twice?
Now if I'm wrong and any sociopath here would like to claim they wouldn't take 10 million dollars, okay maybe it's not all about money but if you could have anything you wanted in exchange for hurting your best friend would you do it?
"When a leader of a pack identifies someone who has weakness it raises a alarm. Animals prey on the weak, or in their own pack strengthen them. In this age of alienation and individualism sociopaths run rampant with no pack in some cases."
ReplyDeleteOnly humans aren't wolves. We are more like apes. In general we don't prey on our own family. That being said we do prey on other humans to survive, but it's not sociopaths who did all of the predator behavior, empaths were predators too. Perhaps the bible and other mind altering technologies invented by empaths have changed our views on predatory behavior but if we got rid of all the Christianity based laws right now and we made killing, stealing, lying, cheating, all legal so people could have the survival of the fittest law of the jungle state of nature aka social darwinism, empaths will be just as predatory as sociopaths.
If you are a sociopath and you aren't very intelligent, then you'll become the prey to empaths and sociopaths alike. Intellect is what decides who is the predator and who is the prey, cold hard brutal logic is what decides who survives and who dies. You have some empaths with fantastic intellects who are excellent predators, such as con artists, cult leaders, business men who happen to be gangsters, all sorts of people who have empathy but who are ruthless at protecting their turf, their family, their industry, their money, or whatever it is that they love. It's like a switch goes off in them and they become as ruthless and as vicious as the typical sociopath.
For this reason, it's never safe to assume that all empaths are like Grace. It's also not safe to assume that if these laws were suspended that empaths would not prey on each other and on sociopaths. So the evolutionary theory that sociopaths exist to be predators to protect the pack does not fly, it assumes sociopaths are better at being predators and that has yet to be seen. As far as I'm concerned anyone can be a predator and on some level everyone adopts predatory behavior to survive, those who don't probably don't survive for very long and go extinct.
The problem is adopting predatory behavior when it's not necessary. And adopting predatory behavior against your own clan or tribe. That does not benefit anyone, or the overall fitness of the clan because different members of the clan have different roles.
A better theory would be to say that sociopaths evolved to become enforcers. When laws or traditions are set in place, order must be maintained, think the prison guard, the police officer, the drill sargant, the manager. In general sociopaths if high functioning, can maintain order. This is not the same as being a leader because a leader has to do the sort of long term strategic or in some cases diplomatic type thinking which isn't a matter of simply following the rules as written. You need an actual philosophy, actual ethics, actual beliefs so that you can form alliances with other tribal orders and this ability is not something sociopaths are as able to do as empaths. You want two empaths to sit and talk and create alliances between tribes because they can form the kind of deep emotional bonds that lead to cooperative behavior. If you have two sociopaths meet attempting to be diplomatic and have peace it's possible but how would that go?
Any sociopaths here want to tell me how two sociopaths could work out their differences and plan a peace treaty or cooperation between tribes which can last for generations?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIt's absolutely true that people often take a bad situation and make
ReplyDeleteit worse through their "principles and good intentions" and their
assesments of what "justice" is.
If people carry a lot of misinformation in thier minds, (And they do.)
They can justify anything up to, and including murder. And, we needn't
overlook the great historical mistakes that have been made in the name
of righteousness like WW I (That was started over a "scrap of paper.")
and WW II. Most of these human tragietes ARE avoidable, but only if
people develop self introspection.
***********************************************************************
Are you aware of the fact that there is both a novel and film were made
about a sociopathic house?
The novel is titled, "The Haunting Of Hill House," by Shirley Jackson.
The film is called "The Haunting" (1963)
The book and the film are about a reputed haunted house with a vile,
wicked history.
The main point MS. Jackson was trying to get across was that the evil
house had "human" charateristics and was like a "trickster" that targeted
and even killed people to get them to "join" it.
The house delighted in terrorizing people for kicks almost like a
psychopath. The story is too involved to go into here, but the house
sets it's designs on a vulnerable empath and works to bring about her
death. The book and the film chronical the process of death-dealing
seduction that the woman undergoes. It's worth reading to just to see
how people view sociopaths.
are you desire?
ReplyDeleteare you lust?
are you predator?
are you charm?
are you answer or question?
are you mask?
are you the lie?
are you alien?
...
Are you annoying?
DeleteAre you needy?
Are you gullible?
Are you arrogant?
Are you whiny?
Are you attention seeking?
Are you prone to calling people who rejected you "sociopaths"?
If the answer to one or more of these questions is "Yes", you're absolutely right!!
It's all the sociopath's fault. Feel free to blame any past, present and future failures on them to absolve yourself of responsibility for your actions and avoid learning any lessons.
That sounds very whiny for a sociopath.
Delete