Sociopaths and normal people are not so different. We're more like different breeds than different species. Different breeds of dogs can co-habitate and produce other great dogs, and I think sociopaths and other normal people can enjoy a similar result. Dogs have it easy, though. They have an owner or master to mediate differences between them, such as intervene during a useless fight. I think having a third party mediator would also help ensure a successful socio/normal relationship, whether business, family, or romantic. Perhaps a therapist or a trusted friend could fill this role – an enforcer that the sociopath will trust or face certain consequences, like the end of a relationship. This is, of course, assuming that the sociopath wants to be in the relationship, otherwise the threat of the ending the relationship is not much of a threat at all. I think that the main problem in a socio/normal relationship is the inability to understand the point of view of the other. Little things aren’t dealt with, needs aren’t being met, misunderstandings abound. If there is some need that is consistently not being met or problem that is not being attended to in the relationship, it will eventually build up until it is blown out of all proportion, like medical diagnostic shows where people go crazy or blind because they have a copper deficiency. To even be able to pinpoint the problem, you have to be able to describe it accurately, which can be harder than it looks. I just read an article about it being difficult to diagnose appendicitis in small children because they aren’t able to accurately describe the locus of their pain – they don’t have the vocabulary or shared experiences with their doctor to do so. I think something similar happens with sociopaths and normals, that problems could be addressed if only they could first be identified. In the meantime, something so simple as a nutritional deficiency or small infection left untreated could easily compound into something serious or life threatening. These little problems can do so much damage, but many of them are very preventable if you knew what to look for.
I think this is why a knowledgeable third party would be crucial in helping the sociopath/normal get past the inevitable impasse -- someone with the emotional/intellectual equivalent of dynamite to blast through all of the bullshit. A touchstone to keep things from getting out of hand.
Somebody besides the cops.
This is a job of the government. In fact this is the primary reason why governments were invented. What went wrong is that religion corrupted the law making process so that laws became based upon Christian morality rather than based on logic, reason, and science.
ReplyDeleteI have to say this is a very strange article to read, I think the poster is onto something here, as this should probably be investigated further and may even make a good academic discipline, studying the relationships between sociopaths and empaths and how to manage them in a team context is interesting from a scientific game theory type of perspective. There are and will be a time in all our lives where we will have to work with someone different from us, it would be helpful to have a mechanism to facilitate this and it would be helpful if there were a manual that the empath and sociopath could both work from to understand how to work with the other.
As it is right now it's entirely an art. Individuals who are good at working with many different types of people are considered to be political geniuses, or socially skilled, or in some cases highly manipulative and underhanded, but it's something everyone learns to do or they just can't get the job done.
I agree, it would only work if the socio wanted to go to the effort to keep the relationship. Otherwise, it would be so much easier, and maybe benefit them more, to move on to an easier target and relationship in which they didn't feel outed. I don't know, maybe the intrigue of trying to out maneuver the non-socio and the third party both would be enough to hold their interest.
ReplyDeleteyou people are so pathetic
ReplyDeleteYou are ridiculous, anonymous. Everybody here seems to be a wannabe
ReplyDeleteWould a sociopath even bother to go ahead with therapy? That would mean he/she would probably be in love with the other person. Or at least willing to committ to the relationship. I guess it's possible. But would the significant other be willing to put the time and energy into the relationship too? Usually going to therapy would mean something needs to change...so who would be changing here...both are stubborn relative to each other. Interesting idea though.
ReplyDeleteGrace
I am predisposed to believe that a sociopath in therapy is just someone playing another game. You would never really know what is going on.
DeleteSociopaths have brain damage and are almost always incapable of being in lasting relationships--they can barely handle dating and friendships. Why would anyone want them to reproduce?
ReplyDeleteWell, you can start an initiative, maybe you will find supporters, suggesting compulsory sterilization.
DeleteSomeone here introduced me to a highly interesting documentary by Stephen Fry about the bi-polar disorder. At a time when it was still called manic depressive the Nazis did in fact sterilize some of them, the other wound up in the camps, based on their classifications.
Compulsory sterilization was and lobotmy has been attempted earlier in history, not remembering the exact cases clearly. They have all been seen as failures and violations of human rights.
DeleteIn the 1920's and 1930's Scandinavian (note; I', pretty sure it was the Scandinavians, but I can't find my sources, so can't re-check, the point is true though) psychologists were very predisposed to the psychopathy diagnosis that existed back then. That diagnosis was by some today seen as a 'fashion diagnosis' much like ADHD has been up until today. By these words you are right to guess that they diagnosed alot of psychopaths back then, especially misbehaved teenagers and children. I think most today would like to believe that these diagnosis were wrong and that the psychologists at that time were on the wrong path. What would you think if they didn't just misjudge but set forth mandatory sterilizations as well? It would be like hunting jews.
A Norwegian movie was made named "Kongen av Bastøy," direct translation, "The King of Bastøy." The English title is; "The King of devil's island." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1332134
I would recommend anyone to see that movie. It is a true story about a teenage boy that wasremoved from society and put on a childrens home on an island in the Oslofjord in Norway. This action against him and many other children in his shoes were done on the grounds that look like to me as minor misbehaviours. Like stealing from the church sunday collect and such.
Won't spoil the fun of watching the movie, but can tall that more then one sin was comitted on that island, and propably they had one or more psychopathic disposed personalities there as well. Judge for yourself.
Today the island houses a so called open prison for severe criminals, with the lowest criminal fallback rate in Norway.
The sociopath would only be there for as long as it suits his/her agenda. It would be a true waste of everyone's time. It would be better for the normal to cut thier losses and call it a day. Very sad.
ReplyDeleteIf a normal knows what they are dealing with then the expectation should be nothing more that the thrill of the honeymoon phase, Lots of fireworks and great sex.
There is no need for the mediator because the relationship will not last long enough for the mediator to be of any use. As soon as there is any "work" involved on the part of the sociopath to understand the needs of the normal, the sociopath will be off to greener pastures. Sure wish it were'nt true.
Zan
Or..the sociopath could learn how to be in a relationship. But you know how the story goes..they learn a thing or two and dump the person they are with and use their new behavior skills with someone else. No matter what, the current love is going to be dumped.
ReplyDeleteGrace
"If a normal knows what they are dealing with then the expectation should be nothing more that the thrill of the honeymoon phase, Lots of fireworks and great sex."
ReplyDelete...and a variety of drug-resistant std's...
I couldn't agree more. My two year relationship with a psychopath just ended, and it's a shame. He was good with me - really good. I knew how to navigate the waters and avoid the land-mines. We had a wild time, in and out of bed, and I appreciated him for who he is, with the sound knowledge that he could not/would not ever change. I loved him as he is.
ReplyDeleteHe ended it abruptly after a minor eruption. It was our first, really, and I likely didn't manage things correctly afterward. I wanted to do the empath thing - talk through some of it. He struggles with emotional intimacy (obviously), and I suppose he fled for the hills.
Too bad. We had a lovely run. I'll miss him. He's wildly intelligent, successful and a treat to be with... if you're on his good side. Unfortunately, I've now seen his wrath and as they say... all good things must come to pass.
I feel like the above comment is a sociopath, playing out his fantasy of the perfect person to exploit...
ReplyDeleteLMFAO.
Anyway...there really is nothing to be gained from being involved with a brain damaged person-such as a sociopath...it's like romantically loving a retarded person and having a genius IQ. Why? It's pathetic.
I feel sorry for sociopaths. They really don't know how to give or receive love. Empaths can escape them and go on to live beautiful lives...sociopaths will always be alone.
Hopefully, technology will improve and their failed brain connections will be possible to restore--helping these 1/2 functioning individuals.
It's actually tragic--even if the sociopaths don't understand the degree of their loss and try to act
foolishly smug about it.
They are destined to be isolated, forever, unless new treatments are developed.
Well, Anonymous --
ReplyDeleteRe - your comment above. I suppose I was the perfect person to exploit. But I'll say this: His positive qualities (wit, brains, intelligence, success) balanced out his deficits.
He didn't choose to be what he is, and he does a hell of a lot better than most socios or normals.
I'm an open-minded, intelligent woman, and I was well aware of what I was playing with. He never hurled abuse at me, and in ways, I think I helped him at times to understand the world around him.
It worked... for a while... and I take away some wonderful memories. There are normal people who have made my life far more hellish. At least with this guy I knew exactly what I was getting. A zero bullshit factor, not veiled behind messy emotions. It takes two to tango, and I enjoyed the tango.
To above
ReplyDeleteBut they don't feel they need help. I don't think they will ever suffer consequences at anyone hands, in a romantic relationship that is, unless they have true feelings for someone and become vulnerable. But how often would that happen? It's people like me that end up getting help and going to therapy...not them. So we have to learn how to either avoid them or know how to handle them. So it's more likely that I would have to change..not the sociopath.
Or I could just lower my expectations to just having sex and then be on my merry way. That might be the best alternative.
Grace
He is deeply aware that he's damaged/different/dysfunctional. I believe that he wishes he could comprehend the emotional world around him, but he can't. I made a game of some of it, and it worked. It helped both of us. Did he want it? Well, it ensured he had a warm body to hold and a true friend (well, I was a friend to him).
ReplyDeleteBut you are right. I did change. I changed for my P, and I'm just beginning to grasp all the ways I changed. Some for the better (it made me tougher and more pragmatic) and some for the worse (I believe I've become a little less compassionate). But all in all, it all took a lot of work. I did my own cost/benefit analysis over time, and for the most part, I, too was in the black.
You will have to lower your expectations if you want to make it work. Mine began low, as we negotiated a win-win situation for both of us. But that's not typical. It's not normal. Most people go into relationships not needing to lay it all out in that way.
I miss the bastard, but I'm truly likely better without him. But I've learned a lot, about myself, others and compassion toward the least likely. That can't be all bad.
I guess my experience with my ex has left a bad taste in my mouth. I try not to take that experience any farther than that. I too have learned about myself and I didn't like some of the stuff I learned. But I'm a better functioning person because of it and I know that I'm responsible for my own feelings. In retrospect it served a purpose for sure.
ReplyDeleteHe admitted to me some of his thoughts about himself, his true self. I think that scared him and he took off. But he was done with me anyway. He would have never gone for help though. That's not his style. Even if we stayed together eventually I would have left the relationship because he was controlling. That's one thing that I would have never been able to handle...being controlled. There would have been power struggles. I think he knew that before I did and that scared him as well. He would have to have the power. He told me that I wasn't street smart but he didn't say it in a way that lead me to believe he would take advantage of me..he just said it as a matter of fact. He was right. Good thing I will never live on the streets.
Grace
He would have never gone for help though. That's not his style. Even if we stayed together eventually I would have left the relationship because he was controlling.
DeleteGrace, there seem to be a lot of factors involved that could result in someone being or acting or seeming controlling. There are also a lot of very subjective takes involved. It could be simply a clash of different desires and perspectives on life.
Just as going to see a psychologist for some people carries a stigma. There is no way you can tell someone he needs therapy, that is always something the person concerned has to decide on their own. ... The life of a husband and father does not consist of family life only. Thus, if he is successful in his job and spends in fact most of his time there, he may well have a problem with being told he has a problem. That was the basic setting in my family.
I have a question for you. Considering he never saw a psychologist, how do you know he was/is a psychopath? I guess there was no such diagnosis?
Did you discover him in books like "the psychopath next door". I haven't read that one. I have also only skimmed Hare's books so far. In the case of snakes in suits, I at least made it to about two thirds, but in the process got slightly bored admittedly.
For whatever reason, I have a rigid resistance to the attempt to summarize the games people play in the work space or for that matter in their family only under that term, admittedly.
Convince me: control, what type of control. What is your own issue with control.
Any other features that fit? What exactly are they?
My P was always pretty up-front about his dark side. Because he is highly successful, he's pretty much made of teflon. He's fortunate to be successful in a stimulating environment, carved out by himself. If not for the line of work he's in, he could have been anything... spy, dictator, master criminal.
ReplyDeleteBit by bit it's come out over time. He seems to assess my comfort level with things, nudging gently to see what's okay and not okay to reveal.
We both know that we could never live together. The power struggle would be horrendous. I'm no push-over myself.
Strangely, after my last post here today, he broke his silence. Didn't say much. More of a 'foot in the door'. JC. I haven't responded. Not sure what to say. I miss him immensely, but know what I'm signing on for if I dare respond.
DAmn, your conversation is being more interisting then any conversation M.E. as
ReplyDeleteIt's good you’re not responding quickly. That's one of the things I did wrong. I acted too quickly at times and made my feelings apparent to him without really getting to know him. He lead me on too so I didn't hesitate. I should have been more mature about it. The one thing he didn't mess with was my school work...I guess he knew not to totally screw me up or maybe he really did respect that. If he had taken his talents seriously he would have been a success as well. Too bad because he’s really smart and aware of things but he never went to school or did anything about it. That’s one of the reasons he so miserable…his job is way too boring but he has a kid to care for so he’s sort of trapped.
ReplyDeleteGrace
his job is way too boring but he has a kid to care for so he’s sort of trapped.
ReplyDeleteSituations like this are only traps if you (or in this case, he) believe they are, Grace. Having a child may slow you down, but it never has to stop you altogether. Or, he could just dump the kid and get on with whatever it is he really wants to do. The fact that he hasn't says something about him.
Your right DB. What I meant though is that he is financially trapped and all he does for his daughter is put a roof over her head..nothing else. He knows she smokes pot and kisses boys..she's thirteen..but he doesn't do anything to help her. If he knew himself better he would have made a better life for himself both career wise and money wise. He is very smart and talented, artistically and mechanically. I think you would agree that a sociopath without an outlet of applying talents, in a good way of course, can lead to misery. He is miserable with his life. Whatever self awareness he has isn't doing him much good. But yes he does make sure her basic needs are met.
ReplyDeleteAt least that's my take on it
Grace
He knows she smokes pot and kisses boys..she's thirteen..but he doesn't do anything to help her.
Deleteso he dropped his control issues with your daughter? He is also the only one that is solely responsible for her? Does something for her beyond simply "putting a roof over her"?
Could it be that your daughter, who apparently lives with her father, I may be wrong of course, would profit psychologically from a different relationship between you? Or if she does not develop the way you expect that will be ultimately only his fault too?
A start would be to accept the type of live he lives, although it is not the one you want to live. Right? To accept that for him for whatever reason he does not do the things you expect him to do?
I have the vague impression Grace, that so far you have offered a card board character. Or is this a trap?
Artistic talents? How many people do you think have them and how many can live of it. Statistically?
Mechanical talents?
All you convinced me of is that he may not be very ambitious.
May I tell you the story of the best student my high school ever had, straight A's in all subjects. A class mate and a good friend of mine. Everyone, obviously, would have expected him to become a professor. Didn't happen. He didn't even finish his Phd, or his postgrad studies, but it was published to the extend it was finished. What he did was marry a woman who became professor, what everyone expected him to be.
When I met him the first time in London, where he lives with his wife. He told me he enjoyed his life a lot, I had learned that he could not only use his brain, but that he also was quite able to work with his hands. Something people always doubted. He had restored an old classic English sports car, he worked on their house, their cottage in the countryside and gardens, and later started to develop landscapes for others, horticultural designs. The latter was slightly related to his earlier studies, admittedly.
Now, on whatever level, could this have been an option for you too? With you following the career path and he, at least initially, only caring about the home, the kid?
And what would make this supposed third-party person
ReplyDelete"impartial?" Haven't we all been polluted,-er, influenced by our
culture, enviornmental upbringing, and life experience to be biased?
Also, the "impatial mediator" might have a vested interest in shaping
the relationship to his or her ends. He might have designs on one
of the disputees whether sexual or economic. If the two people
implicitely trust the mediator, he might lead them down the "Garden
Path," so to speak. Grifters do this all the time. People who assure us
that they are acting in our best interests. Politicans for example.
There is only one way to engage in an honest, healthy relationship with another person. Realize that you attract someone on your own
level. If you are unhealthy, you will only attract other unhealthy people.
Abusers and users. If on the other hand, you operate on a higher level
you attract people of that level. People of varying levels have nothing
to offer one another-except deciet. It really is a dialogue of the deaf.
Unless false hopes are disgarded, a person gets nowhere.
Surely many psychos do regular routines like non-psychos and have families or care for pets in a successful "good" way due to their LIKING of mentioned "Items"? Most folks are indifferent towards their trash-cans, but the majority does not abuse or destroy them? Doctors are known for being cynic republicans at heart, but does that lessen their medical contributions?
ReplyDeleteThe more I learn about sociopaths, the less I am inclined to label them evil. It amazes me that some of the same people who knowingly choose to live with cats, (animals that possess far less capacity for moral reasoning than a prosocial sociopath) are the same people who'd like to see a so-called sociopathic disemboweled/burned alive by a so called moral majority.
ReplyDeleteSociopaths do not feel the similar internal emotional pressures to behave in a manner that the authority structure they exist under deems appropriate. They have an internal sense of right and wrong that does not conform to groupthink. They might be challenging (especially if you are trying to extract "normal" quid pro quo moral action from them)- but just because they march to the beat of their own drummer does not make them evil.
"Witch" was the label given to nonconforming individuals in Salem MA during the seventeenth century. Their lack of obedience to the powers that be ultimately caused them to be lit on fire. Time has caused most of us to understand that they were scapegoats because they weren't content to "keep to the script" - not evil incarnate who deserved death fit for a monster.
Antisocial, evil acts are committed quite frequently by non sociopathic types. And sociopathic personalities often demonstrate a willingness to treat others who have been marginalized with far more humanity than the traditional power structure might give them permission to.
The point is- sociopathy is a trait that indicates a person is not motivated by social anxiety to "work well with others". There are a disproportionate number of criminals who are sociopaths, but there's definitely a bit of a chicken and egg phenomenon going on here- authority doesn't like these personalities questioning its legitimacy, which sets off a chain of negative feedback from both sides that usually results in an intractable personality style.
I think it's possible that if we still existed as hunter gatherers, sociopaths and the people who love them would get along a lot better because these feedback loops wouldn't be etched so deeply.
There is one rule I can see as far as relating to a sociopath goes: see them for what/who they are and don't try to manipulate them into being something else- even if you think it's for the right reasons. People coexist quite nicely with little furry 12 lb amoral predators because we don't expect a cat to be more than a cat.
The question a non-sociopath would be wise to ask is: am I willing to accept the sociopath into my life, understanding that none of my manipulative powers will cause the sociopath to act the way I want them to? (Because there are no sociopath shelters/ euthanasia options it's probably best to only enter into non binding arrangements- haha)
But just because a sociopath can't/won't be a pillar of society doesn't mean that they are not valuable on their own terms. I've never heard of a cat lover thinking that if they buy the cat enough pretty sweaters and feed it only caviar they will be able to guilt the cat into signing up for "make me a dog" surgery.
How to get along with a sociopath? Simple. Let the sociopath be who they are and come and go on your own terms and don't let your illusions get in the way that you will ever "convert" a sociopath into being a good(?) person like yourself. Because it is our self deceptions/fear/projections that provide the most fertile ground for an exhausted sociopath to exploit us.
Just- live and let live.
Oompa and let google eye.
ReplyDeleteI'm a sociopath and a cop. I am my own third pary.
ReplyDelete