your site has been such an amazing source of information. it's been a learning curve for me and i feel like i've reached the part of the curve where i can say, "oh, i get it! i get what that must be like!" i think i am an extreme empath and want to understand others "from the inside out". i have an almost need to enter that person's mindset and feel it for myself. really interesting, your goal of making the world a bit "safer" for sociopaths to make themselves more known. wow.
i had a sociopathic boyfriend for a few months, he was non-violent but definitely expressed desires to kill and i know that he could. and yet, as i told a friend once, it was the most freeing person to be around. because he had no filter and no care, i could tell him any darker thoughts or any politically and socially incorrect thoughts and the conversation would just flow. there was no punishment for thinking "incorrectly." that felt valuable. he also taught me to be very wary of people's motivations, he read them like an open book. empaths can be just as clandestine as sociopaths, though for different, less malicious ends.
I liked how this reader mentioned that he had no judgment for thinking incorrectly. I think that is one of the biggest things that my friends and paramours like about me. Apparently closed-mindedness is quite common, and exists within every belief system, conservative/liberal, religious/non, etc.
The relationships that tend to not work out are the ones where the person doesn't realize how tolerant I am being of their opinions and idiosyncrasies. Instead, they have this weird notion that I must just agree with them on every point (and of course why wouldn't I, because their opinions are always correct). I would say this is true (at least to some extent) with 80% of the population that I encounter.
"no filter and no care, i could tell him any darker thoughts or any politically and socially incorrect thoughts and the conversation would just flow. there was no punishment for thinking "incorrectly." that felt valuable. "
ReplyDeleteI am the same way and am an empath. It is called being nonjudgmental.
same ^ [also an empath, and nonjudgmental = but we know what's up, just too kind to say it] [and scared..]
Delete"...less malicious ends."
ReplyDeleteDunno about that. People are malign and petty when they feel the need to exact punishment or correct a person's 'offensive' behavior, though what qualifies as offensive is subjective. The malicious intent, with empaths, has to be sanctioned as a group thing before any one person will engage in it openly, which is the primary difference between more emotionally reclusive people (like sociopaths) and those who are people-oriented.
I'd say it's probably closer to 95% of the population is close-minded in the way you describe, but it's a spectrum. I am an eccentric person, and not easy for the people I'm around to relate to. This is because I can't be bothered to project a palatable, socially acceptable personality for people that wouldn't otherwise 'get me'. I believe strongly in courtesy and politeness and will engage myself if something I find interesting emerges. One of my habits is to drop a piece of slightly misleading or 'inconsistent' information into a social pool and see where it goes, like dye in a bloodstream. I can usually scope out who's currently talking to who, about what, in how much detail, and why. It's a walk in the park to piece together the exact relations and motivations between people at that point.
As a result of this trick and variants, it's easy to get the 'behind closed doors' take on your own image in public opinion, and something I discovered is that there are basically four types of behaviors with regard to how people get treated.
One is total open-mindedness. A few people, like the ones discussed in the article, are willing to display who they actually are and don't judge others (or at least the ones they're close to) based on social standards. They're unconditionally open-minded. Pretty rare, probably only 5% of people I've encountered.
Then there's the partial open-mindedness, where they're willing to judge people to a certain extent, but usually only as a self-corrective behavior and not to gossip. These judgments usually aren't as extreme, but are definitely still present and you can note corrective behavior patterns as a result of stimuli, even if you don't receive an expressive response from them. They're open minded, but only within their comfort zone.
Then there are the partially close-minded ones. They still make judgments, but usually don't make them to the person's face. Instead, they feel the need to exert their opinion in private to acquaintances, expressing whatever judgments they made and 'poisoning the well', so to speak, against that person. This sort is common and also works the other way, and 'cults of personality' usually revolve around a few of these people constantly clinging to their person of desire and making lots of positive value judgments about that person so that their worth is elevated in the eyes of the audience because of how many people vouch for them and how much authority that grants.
Then there are the totally closeminded ones that adhere to a strict worldview and reject things outside that worldview. They also tend to be very self-involved and have a highly developed narrative of their own imaginary life (why things happen, what things should "logically" result as consequences of certain events, and so on, that usually has no use or descriptive power besides making them feel good emotionally). You see a lot of these people involved in religion but I've seen them in everything from video games to laboratories. They're also relatively rare, thankfully, but I usually find myself wanting to strangle them when I encounter them. They make judgments and are usually very expressive about them unless their moral code of choice deems that inappropriate. It's abrasive to me, and it doesn't help that they're usually (not always) stupid.
really interesting, your goal of making the world a bit "safer" for sociopaths to make themselves more known.
DeleteIs that her goal? Are "sociopath" an endangered species? Or is socio/psychopathy a term everyone uses but no one completely understands?
Why do I fail to see anything specifically socio/psychopathic in ME's answer? Basically we all like compliments with some reservations, and we all like to consider ourselves open minded and may only be aware of our own blind spots in limited ways.
The relationships that tend to not work out are the ones where the person doesn't realize how tolerant I am being of their opinions and idiosyncrasies. Instead, they have this weird notion that I must just agree with them on every point (and of course why wouldn't I, because their opinions are always correct). I would say this is true (at least to some extent) with 80% of the population that I encounter.
I somewhat liked the comment that picked up on this issue, moving open mindedness slightly closer to the supposed "empaths" spectrum percentage with his four categories. The amount of people that don't fit into the respective boxes are equal to the number usually floating around concerning "empaths/neurotypicals", whatever that may be: 95%
I also don't like accept rigid positions on matters, people who demand agreement, or worse "know" what is best for anybody else, or what anyone has to do or how he has to act or feel about matters. Does this make me a socio/psychopath, I seriously doubt.
Concerning the last category of Anonymous@12:53 AM, which I admittedly could most empathize with--Hilarious--including the expressed wish to strangle the member of this agent category, what would be the underlying emotion if I did? Deep resentment? How dare you tell me what to do, how to act or what to feel, or what is best for me?
Let's take ME's example from the book, the person telling her to leave the station via the usual passenger way out, instead the short cut, or as I remember it, exit for employees. What's his fucking problem, if someone else uses this passage. "I can empathize" with ME here, but I also sense emotions, whatever they are in her case: resentment, unimportant little jerk, how dare you; a somewhat damaged self-concept, I can do what I like; anger, dare you tell me what to do? But I am supposed to also embrace the idea that she only mirrors emotions, the emotions of others, the neurotypicals. How comes this passage feels so familiar? Does it really matter if you feel them or not, if you feel the same urges as an outcome?
I wasn't aware I shifted "mentally" but not not "locally" from answering to your comment to a more general comment. Now that it is more indirectly addressing yours, strictly it does not fit here anymore. No harm meant, good comment anyway. ... With some top of my head reservations above.
DeleteThere is absolutely no upside to openly disagreeing with people
ReplyDeleteand making their-and your-life more difficult then it has to be.
I am very disliked, but I realize that if people treat me rudely in
public there will be unpleasent consequences for them, so if I can
temper my negative reaction, they are deprived of the satisfaction
of "getting" to me.
For example, I once was driving my car behind a person I know
to dislike me. The light turned green and he refused to budge.
If I was the only car behind him, his ploy would have worked. But
there were other cars behind us. I didn't have to do anything. It was
they who hit their horns. The bastard then moved. He was scared of
them, not me. Also, I notice that when I am in a bank and there's no
one on line behind me, I never get waited on. When there is a line,
these stuck up bitches DO wait on me, just to get me out of the way.
If someone revolts you, and you try your best to discourage them,
doesn't it make more sense to accomidate them and go with the FLOW? That way they'll be out of your orbit quicker. It's a very Taoist
way of looking at things, and it would never occur to most sociopaths
to do that.
While it may be true that sociopaths are "nonjudgmental", ME says that they are "tolerant of opinions and idiosyncrasies", which implies a level of judgment. There's a smidge of self righteousness in that statement in the "more tolerant than thou" sort of way. Because sociopaths keep so much of what they really think to themselves and operate behind a mask, it's nearly impossible to gauge where you stand until things completely blow up. A lack of self disclosure is not necessarily a sign of respect for other's rights to their perspectives. It can be, but more often there's a different motivating factor than "nonjudgmentalism".
ReplyDeleteAgreed. "My" socio lack of judgment was a huge point of pride for him, and, in his mind, excused all of his destructive behavior.
DeleteHe also conveniently developed convictions when he wanted to make me feel bad about myself. When I would share a cherished political belief, he would act horrified and disturbed, just to screw with my mind.
I'm fairly neurotypical -lots of empathy. I'm far more interested in how accepting a sociopath completely for the way the Gods and the Fates created them works out for the sociopath. Does it merely allow for a little more honesty/ less masks? Is there really a core soul that can be reached in a deeper way that was never possible before the socio met someone who loved them for who and what they truly were? In other words, connection, trust and intimacy. Is a socio even interested in any of that? My guess is the path of socio evolution has this potential.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wmte70JJCg
ReplyDeletelol
DeleteI think the reader totally missed the point of what a sociopath is. Her bf was fully focused on her in the moment and gave her exactly what she needed; someone she could tell anything to, without judgment, making her feel free like no one else. Much like a therapist. But the difference is, and what makes him a sociopath, is that he will remember everything she told him and will not hesitate to use it the second he decides that he could benefit from it, or use it to get something from her. Manipulation, blackmail, the sky is the limit with a sociopath.
ReplyDeletei'm the writer of that e-mail, and, yes, in a subsequent e-mail i told m.e. just what you wrote, anonymous oct. 28th. he did that exactly and predictably but i was never attached to him so i just let him have his meltdown and yes, while some things he used against me stung a bit for a short while, i ultimately got over it.
ReplyDeletei haven't missed the point of what a sociopath is, to be sure, though. firstly, i was raised by a sociopathic father, so i'm well aware of their aberrant behaviors, and, unfortunately, have developed a high tolerance for them. secondly, just because i knew everything i'd disclosed would be used against me, doesn't mean that i wasn't able to get something of value out of that obviously poisonous and unsustainable relationship. i was amused and entertained by this person, just as he was by me. obviously this is partly due to there not having been any physical violence in the relationship, as well, which of course i wouldn't have found amusing, were that part of the whole sham.
ReplyDeleteI agree that sociopaths are very intriguing to be around and the knowledge that they can impart to you is extremely valuable. It is also true that once you have been exposed to one and you are aware of this, you are never the same again! You will never think or view the world in quite the same way as you did before and you will be wondering why humans act and think as they do. I was raised in a family with a sociopath brother but I didn't have the knowledge or capacity at that time to understand my experience. It was not until I researched and found this valuable site that I got it. lisa
ReplyDeleteReal Empaths (UberEmpaths) can be just as violent as sociopaths, it all varies. Say they have strong shields up such as my gf does and she expresses her wanting to kill constantly. She has the means to do so the only thing holding her back is the fear of being caught and she likely perfects scenarios in her head.
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