This is a classic portrayal of a female sociopath, but the general principles apply to everyone who knows they are different in an inhospitable world but refuse to just lay down and die.
I know i used to be inventing myself in the past but once i reached a certain age i realised i don't want to fit in anywhere so i stopped inventing something to expose, instead i am walking around with no personality. I realised that i could accomplish more by myself than integrated in a group with a certain personality. When i engage interaction with someone i am as charming as i can, and i invent myself on the spot. I sometimes overdo it and they become skeptical, but most times i can do without being in a certain group of friends that ask for a permanent mask. With my family i am open and even though they can see that i am a cold hearted fellar they all think there is something inside of me that cares and loves so i decided to leave it at that.
I have found others like me before and one autistic that I can drop the act for, but at this point, not holding a mask on is a conscious choice. The default is to slip into something a little less comfortable and a little more fun. My husband gets a peak every now and then as well as one of my closest friends, but since they've always defined that small amount of "strange" behavior as Pythias-like instead of Psychopath-like, it doesn't raise concern.
Like M.E. has described in previous posts, some p/s types become very possessive of (and he says 'loyal to')their pets. I would say this is true of me, though the individuals I hold in that group total only 3. Others that are useful to me are mine too, and I'd take measures to keep someone else trying to use them, but the loyalty doesn't come into play and I certainly wouldn't put much effort in if I wasn't getting something out. My 3 closest have great value to me for one reason or another.
The only people I've played games with who were aware and willing were other p/s types who were also looking for amusement, and even then, we weren't playing each other so much as playing with our "dolls" together. (Look, mine does this! I want that one. Okay- you run off with mine, look at what I do to yours, etc.)
When I first saw the movie, I was in my early teens. I was with my best friend at the time and in that segment she said “that’s exactly like you!” We laugh about it and she didn’t give it much thought, but it was kind of a wake up call for me. First because although I already knew I was kind of different, I believed any intelligent person would think and act the same way, including my friend to whom I frequently told what was going on in my head. In that moment I realized my assumption was wrong. I was naïve back then, I considered my behavior to be defensive and never crossed my mind other people could perceived as a threat. I didn't had a name for it, but I was sure that what I believed to be an advantage could also be my ruin. After that incident I’ve rarely taken my mask off.
I am involved with a socio, I love the play but worry he'll go to far and hurt me, I know I'm more like a pet but try to set the limits for play with giving him opytions and consequences. He hasn't been able to hurt me anymore with verbal insults. What up with that (verbal insults) does it give him a rush to see my display of emotios). He must be disappointed because I'm pretty immune or just don't let it in. I know who I am.
That's the point. I relax and am myself most of the time, only by myself. And to answer your question, no, besides my family there is no other environment that i let myself relax into. It is especially hard right now cause i live in a campus with two room mates. I have to keep a mask all the time cause if they knew what i was actually they would probably be conspicuous. I haven't even tried to be friends with them, i actually tried to fight one of them(the weaker one). I am waiting for his revenge. Keeps me up at nights.
This is a great example of our reason for being the way we are (sans the whole being a woman in a man's world in the 18th century)
If you took away the spooky music, it would be less dramatic and more to the point, but the devious side of me indulged in it a bit, I'm afraid.
I actually understand where Fred is coming from to some extent. I often don't slide into a mask for the day, but rather, instantly swap here and there to be whoever I need to be wherever I need to be. This is Dangerous. I don't do it consciously, but I shouldn't. If someone observes the transition, you will be labeled as two faced. The pleasure and simplicity of only being two faced. I'd love to know what that's like.
My socio friend remarked on it while we were having smokes after work ended. It was then that I realized I should try and solidify a persona to some extent. At least at work.
That's self defeating to cause anomosity were you live. Don't shit where you eat. Fake an apology with a good sob excuse so you can sleep better. Tell them you were a farrel child raised by stray dogs. Only joking I don't think they would believe it.
That last post of mine was to Fred and his situation.
TNP, I am trying to understand what is so natural and horrible about the real you) do you just want to physically attack everyone you come in contact with or something else)
this is hilarious. i often struggle with my near-constant one face. is the grass greener on the other side? i like the video - wish i could have LEARNT that a long time ago - but then, i'm not a socio, so it's barely possible.
I just had a thought about frustration. I know i read about it around here and never remembered feeling it. And then it came to me. I was once on amphetamines and at that degree of super knowledge you get i was like:"Is this all that is to humankind? In that case you might as well destroy it." And i said that out loud. My friends were stupefied. I remember that instant feeling a great frustration because i couldn't destroy the world. That's the same feeling i get when i want to make my room mates do something they don't want to do. It's a great feeling of repressed anger that almost brings me to tears. Obviously i can't let it out cause they'd know they're room mates to an evil mastermind. Anyway i get the feeling of frustration for not being able to be who i am.
TNP, I am trying to understand what is so natural and horrible about the real you) do you just want to physically attack everyone you come in contact with or something else)
@wish i knew: Wanting to physically harm someone is not something that crosses my mind very often anymore, as I'm several years past the raging hormones of youth. The short answer is, I don't entirely know the Real Me. Like the Lady from the video, I understood from a certain age that I had to act a certain way in order to survive, and in doing so, learned that my existence did not have to be a prison.
You ask me what is so horrible about who I really am? What really goes on in my head? I don't think anyone truly wants those answers that cannot appreciate and accept us as we are, because in doing so, laying exposed, you'll see not caring humans, for we are not, no matter how much we would desire to be.
Were someone to listen to the conversations of two sociopaths, they would surely be horrified. I've had the luxury of having them, and knowing full well, the both of us, that these dialogs would appear completely blasphemous to the average passerby.
Would it disturb you to know that the both of us, can spot and find predators, prey, and even homosexuals, simply by watching them walk from one end of a sidewalk to another, almost instantly remarking on it out of earshot? I'm not sure why we have impeccable 'gaydar', but we do. A peculiar attribute acquired after years of study, I suppose.
Those are the most tame and innocent of activities that I indulge upon in a causal manner. If we can spot such things with a few seconds of observing you mid-gait, imagine what we know when having a causal conversation, and intimate conversation, or a sexual experience. Most humans aren't nearly as 'complicated' as they wished they were, and hardly unique. No one knows this quite like a sociopath.
"I believed any intelligent person would think and act the same way"
That's what I thought when I was younger, too."
Me three.
Most people take their cues about who they are from society. But if you are by nature asocial, then you don’t have that luxury. You’re beyond peer pressure because you learn very early on that most of the people around you really aren’t your peers. At least, that’s how it was for me. So, when it came to figuring out who and what I was, I came to see that it was all up to me. Self invention is a willful, conscious act. It could even be turned into an art form. That’s why I love the scene from Dangerous Liaisons. Here is a character elucidating this whole issue as clearly as I have ever heard it said in mainstream media.
Yeah dude but self invention takes something else too besides creativity. You have to be able to act the way you say you are whenever it is necessary and if a situation arises where you wouldn't want to keep playing the role, what are you going to do? Say you pose as a relatively brave fellar and a situation arises where you have to stand up to a stronger fellar or to more fellars and you think that based on what you did till then you ought to start fighting these guys. You cower out, at least that's what i did, and the whole act is over. Your friends will look at you differently, like, what else isn't true? You have to drop everything. All i am saying is that inventing yourself takes some precaution and brains also besides creativity.
I started my life thinking that whatever i did was allowed and i did lots of stuff, ruining people, fucking with them and stuff till all the people i hurt united against me. And believe me, they were lots. That's when i had to drop the act and start showing everybody what a nice dude i was. Now i only hurt or destroy if i am certain that i can get away with it.
^Another lovely sentiment. If I replace 'travels' with 'intellectual wanderings' then Valmont's words above would be true of me as well as the marquise's words.
I never actually made it through this whole movie, but I'm not much of a literary type and I have little tolerance for films set in whatever century France. I did, however, love Cruel Intentions.
I re-invent myself whenever I meet new people. I don't play different roles as Fred puts it, I generally just try to figure out peoples likes and dislikes and then pretend to have everything in common with them. I can do this fairley easly but I don't really see the point in making new friends unless I can gain something from doing so. I usually just stick with with the circle of friends who I've surrounded myself with for years now. I don't enjoy their company very much but I keep them around because they all have something to offer and I figured out all of their intrests a long time a go so it's easy to fit in. I would say that I'm immune to peer pressure as just don't genuinely care about other peoples interests or opinions and as Daniel said, I don't really consider anyone as my peer. I remember that throughout my childhood and early teens I just felt different to others, but I'm 18 now and for a long time I've just felt that I'm somehow, above everyone else.
Could i get some objective insight into my dad from you knowing folk. i can only give you an outline cos i've never penetrated his head myself, nor cared to. he's a successful businessman, big fish in a small pond kind of thing, he mixes with high profile people and has a lot of social charm (joke after joke after joke, argh!). a show-off, loves attention. takes care of his appearance. he shows warmth easily and is affectionate and when he's not raging, he's in a happy-go-lucky mood. he is generous with his cash. he was absent totally whilst I was growing up, only seeing us once or twice a year for a few days. in those days he was around he was controlling as hell. demanding everything to be just the way he liked it. always needing us fawning over him, always wanting us there. it was incessant. he always has copious energy. in those few days he would throw rages, fight with my mum, break stuff then leave again. he was physically abusive to her, and never to his kids. i resented him from a very young age, i was scared of him and hated how controlling and patriarchal he was, and a few years back resigned myself to the fact that the only thing that i wanted from him, his understanding of me, i was never gonna get. ie. he has fixed expectations that he projects onto us, no variance from that pleases him, like we are just an extension of him or something. so he lives in denial of what his kids are really up to. in terms of infidelity, my mum suspects. He doesn't do drugs or drink, he's veerrry 'religious' don't you know, but in a dogmatic and ritualistic, not 'spiritual' way. i'm highly sensitive and have said for years that him and I live on different planets. He's just unapproachable cos I feel he has too many dogmatic barriers, his 'reputation' almost superseding actually knowing us properly.
i forgot to mention, as a kid (with loads of siblings) he was a bad student who got kicked out of numerous schools. always popular, he stole, he got into fights, punched teachers and god knows what else - he regales these stories with hilarity, over and over, but then pretends to feel bad about it - lmao it's so insincere.
i know he's no full-blown psychopath but what's the first thing, if anything, that strikes you i can rule out? what traits do you call these? narcissist? arsehole syndrome?;)......
i know my bro is a little bit socio so i wondered if he got it from my dad. sorry, if it's not very informative. i did try. But i'll never find out otherwise.
@deanna.Sounds a little bit like my dad except for the physically abusive to mum part. As far as I remember he defers to her but I suspect she has some BPD traits thanks to this and other sites. But you write it so much better deanna. I look forward to the replies to your post and hope it will also bring some insights for me.
@ Daniel Birdick, I googled your name and landed on the Dr. Robert forum, (which seems to have a serious troll infestation, by the way) and your answer to one of the many long-winded "Am I a sociopath?" posts made me chuckle. I had to come back here and share. :)
You are not a sociopath.
There. How does that grab ya? Do you feel relieved? Disappointed? Is there a sudden desire to defend your status as proto-sociopath?
@Pythias: That's how I spot the "speshul snowflake" teenagers (and, unfortunately often, adults)... they defend their self-diagnosis like it's beyond reproach, as if their biased self-estimation is somehow unquestionable. Clinging to labels that hard just to give yourself an "interesting" backstory is a sure sign of desperation.
my mum's sensitive and doesn't mind being controlled. not that she didn't hit back at him, she did, and she smashed his merc windscreen with an axe. lolage. apart from that, couldn't tell you if she has bpd or anything else as it's too close to home.
Dare I venture and risk the wrath of many here by saying that I do concur with Pythias about Daniel. Strictly on based on what I've read and my own crude interactions with him before. If not a pathological sociopath what then? What the hell, as they say what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger so here goes!
@ GagReflex Yes, the italicized part was something Daniel wrote to some kid. Not holding an advanced degree, not having many years of research in the field, and only interacting with others online, I tend not to do the "You are/are not X, Y, or Z" thing, but Daniel seems to have really studied this extensively and to have a good handle on the topic.
Great clip. I like how she tells her story with that smirk on her face. As if she has the world at her feet, she did until the end, and controls everything around her, except for a man like herself. I don't quite remember how it ended except that she was utterly ruined. But I can see how she became that way..win or die. For women in those days, if they weren't intelligent enough to manipulate their world..they would die, indeed.
Ugh... I've just been trawling through the Dr. Robert forums. The good doctor seems to have lost his composure in recent months. He also seems to like Daniel an awful lot more than he used to. What a charmer our Birdick is.
I've been thinking about it and I've come to relies that up until the age of about 13 I actually spent a shitload of my time alone. I wasn't a social outcast or reject, It's just that hadn't yet grasped the true importance of making(and keeping) friends and being well liked, so I never made a great effort to socialise outside of school.
I know this is off topic but I was just wondering if this sounds familiar to anyone else here. I ask this question not just because of my own experiences, but also because of the stereotype that sociopaths are these strange loners that live on the fringes of society. Is there any truth to this stereotype? I've never thought so.
I'm sure some do. Simpley because some feel unconfortable around people for various reasons. Then there sociopaths who are well mixed in with the rest of us. People can assume that sociopaths aren't capable of living among the masses but they are. That's why it can be very difficult to dedect one. I think it depends on how functional they are and how well they operate in life.
"victim no more" she seems to think, "I'll do it to others before they'll do it to me".
I understand in this movie, that this behaviour was a noble class hobby - and nothing else - a way to survive boredom. Laces, silks, hunts, conquests ... boredom!
I do prefer cardinal Richelieu, he reminds a male king of hearts.
The ex wife just told me she is sending me a check in the morning. I believe her. I don't think she knows he is planning to give me money, not that I know that was going to happen for sure. I'm not going to text him to tell him. I'm just going to wait and see what happens. Wouldn't it be funny if I got money from both of them?..lol But she probably told him she was doing that so whatever. Not that I would keep it..he'd be here with a gun. It's like a friggin circus with this guy.
Misanthrope said: "I generally just try to figure out peoples likes and dislikes and then pretend to have everything in common with them."
This was my common approach, however I changed it up. I'd match myself with things in common, and both go along, and inversely oppose likes or interests they mention, typically the latter being the more trivial. People will remember and gain some matter of admiration or kinship for the things you appreciate, but you do want to stand out somehow, unless you simply want to be a shadow in the pack. My ego simply does not allow this. It's a lot easier than grandiose lying to try and one-up someone.
Misanthrope said: "I've been thinking about it and I've come to relies that up until the age of about 13 I actually spent a shitload of my time alone. I wasn't a social outcast or reject, It's just that hadn't yet grasped the true importance of making(and keeping) friends and being well liked, so I never made a great effort to socialise outside of school."
I think this is rather common, as this was about the same time that I too realized that I needed to make more than a few friends. I learned my first day of pre-school the importance of having SOME friends (one, maybe two, the wilder the better) when I was basically the new meat and was treated so, sort of like prison hazing...
In regards to your second section of asking about loner traits, I think it boils down to this. There is little desire for the act of engaging in friendship. You may spot someone that catches your interest, but there's never this soul-crushing loneliness. I can go weeks without talking to anyone without so much as a second thought, so long as I keep myself occupied.
I can really relate to Marquise de Merteuil in the video, but for a slightly different reason. I was raised by a very religious father, who had very religious friends, always going to religious, morally uptight events. I had to act proper or suffer the consequences of being ostracized, the disdain of my father, and the abhorrence of my 'peers'.
As Daniel put it, I've never felt that people anywhere near my age group were peers. I've felt some measure of comfort speaking with people around twice my age, because at least they have something to say. Since I mostly dealt with my father's friends growing up do to so much moving, I found having conversations with people my age to generally be boring or outright idiotic/ignorant. I'm aware of naivety, but it didn't touch on the level most people my age had.
Nowadays, once in a blue moon I will find someone my age that I can actually have real conversations with. They are so rare that I usually remember those people and make a point to befriend them.
Great movie (John Malkovich is brilliant, Glenn Close too). Oddly, both of their characters end up victims of their own game. She may have even shed a tear when he was killed by the jealous bf.
Remind me not to ever look up my touchier exes on Facebook again. I check in to wish her a happy birthday (no ulterior motive, girls, don't even start), and I see that she's joined this lolfest. I'm mostly offended that one of the smarter women I've known has allowed herself to be roped into Lovefraud style nonsense. I expected better. ~sigh~
I'll take your word for it. I went there once, when they band UKan. The few lines I read were disgusting. I won't go back; not even to make fun of ugly tops.
My brain goes all to hell after a certain point in the evening. It's almost two a.m. here. I think I'll go to bed before I trip over my tongue anymore.
I had hoped they'd be recursively referential (hreferential?~), but instead they all point to your previous comment. The blog likes you better than me. :P
Though now I also see that they operate differently in the comment popup... neat. Empty hrefs... I'd never really thought about the oddities that can pop up with their usage.
I have a question about masks/social relationships.
I'm kind of a loner, but an empath. I "care" about people, but I often don't enjoy engaging with them.
I don't understand the taking on other people's likes, I don't find this necessary, but at the same time, I don't go around collecting friends.
For the sociopath, there is a lot of talk about emptiness, not having a personality. And yet, you are all different and display different personalities and interests. So I don't quite get it.
You don't actually have to pretend to be into things that other people like to be an unobtrusive person, am I correct? You just do it to be in a position to manipulate them, or no?
It's not really that you are nothing without the mask, you are a distinctive person, plus you have acts that you put on around people,, riight?
NotablePath says Nowadays, once in a blue moon I will find someone my age that I can actually have real conversations with. They are so rare that I usually remember those people and make a point to befriend them.
I mean this is true for me too, though I would just make it a point to talk to them again, not necessarily befriend them.
@Postmodern & Pythias Would you say that Sherlock is a sociopath who does not display a mask, or is he still prettying it up, or not a sociopath?
I went to the facebook victim's page that Post linked to. Here's a gem from one of the comments there: "How is this relevent to one being victimized by a sociopath? Overly philosophical and analytical for this page." Really?! I will never understand people who do not wish to analyze what role they played in contributing to their own unhappiness.
@bibi: Take away all the layers and masks, and I'm a sum of all the parts that I begged, borrowed and stole from other people. I don't think I've ever had the leisure to 'be myself' in large part to my childhood. I have no idea who that person is.
I hope M.E. writes a follow-up book. I like to know more about her "take" on things. I want to know wether she was fired from her teaching job or if she ever WILL drop her mask. In today's America, she will be welcomed NOT scorned.
Interesting. This was always one of my favorite movies that I watched at least three times or more a year in the past. I related to both characters. I would read Ayn Rand as her work matched my thinking/feeling processes (reason) and watch The Fountainhead over and over again. That, along with vampire movies, Dorian Gray (an all time favorite especially since people today tell me I never seem to grow old and I love telling them I am a vampire). Today I have to be careful not to be pulled back into what I really am - a sociopath - because I reinvented myself into someone who is positive, kind, loving and optimistic. Which one is the real me? Both, but I CHOOSE to be the better person. Boring as that may be...I am more at peace with myself, God and those around me. I still don't "feel" things like normal people, but my actions are intentionally for the best towards myself and others.
When I saw this video clip I saw a woman in a time of history where women were hgeld down and dominated in society by men. They did not have the right to vote, could not take jobs equally as men did, and where under payed.
Then this woman tells a story on how she got ahead in this world, by cunning tricks, by using information(secrets?) to her advantage. This is a repeating pattern among women through up history in all times when men have dominated. To get ahead, they manipulate. How is this sociopathy? I see this as a product od theyr time, and maybe perhaps even a female trait that because of what I have explained this far has evolved as a propesity in many women?
I love the Viking sagas, so I will make a comparrison even here. Many of the women in those stories did exactly these things. Manipulating circumstances to get men to do what they wanted. In a male dominated world where physical ableness is detirmining, this manipulation was necessary for these women to get what they wanted. On the other hand, the Viking sagas are very male dominated. Most saga characters are male, and a whole lot less are female(those who played a significant role in the stories). Thus one can't really draw a detirministic picture of women in general at that time just by what is told about these women.
And about truth in those sagas; at least they were true enough to find the Viking settlements in New Foundland (wcich cancels Christoffer Colombus as the discoverer of the american continent).
Gangs of psychopaths or covert clubs filled with "hollow schemers" surely are unlikely? One psycho & many puppets most likely is the rule in reality? A friend of mine thinks so anyway, and he is of the scheming, cold kind. Read somewhere that psychos have some sort of "psycho-dar" an avoid each other. In a room with 5 hollow people there are 4 too many..
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I know i used to be inventing myself in the past but once i reached a certain age i realised i don't want to fit in anywhere so i stopped inventing something to expose, instead i am walking around with no personality. I realised that i could accomplish more by myself than integrated in a group with a certain personality. When i engage interaction with someone i am as charming as i can, and i invent myself on the spot. I sometimes overdo it and they become skeptical, but most times i can do without being in a certain group of friends that ask for a permanent mask. With my family i am open and even though they can see that i am a cold hearted fellar they all think there is something inside of me that cares and loves so i decided to leave it at that.
ReplyDeleteDo you ever find some other then a family member that you can relax and be yourself with?
ReplyDeleteAnd if you have are they are they considered to have value to you?
Have you ever found one that would play the game because they wanted to? If so how did that go?
wish i knew,
ReplyDeleteI have found others like me before and one autistic that I can drop the act for, but at this point, not holding a mask on is a conscious choice. The default is to slip into something a little less comfortable and a little more fun. My husband gets a peak every now and then as well as one of my closest friends, but since they've always defined that small amount of "strange" behavior as Pythias-like instead of Psychopath-like, it doesn't raise concern.
Like M.E. has described in previous posts, some p/s types become very possessive of (and he says 'loyal to')their pets. I would say this is true of me, though the individuals I hold in that group total only 3. Others that are useful to me are mine too, and I'd take measures to keep someone else trying to use them, but the loyalty doesn't come into play and I certainly wouldn't put much effort in if I wasn't getting something out. My 3 closest have great value to me for one reason or another.
The only people I've played games with who were aware and willing were other p/s types who were also looking for amusement, and even then, we weren't playing each other so much as playing with our "dolls" together. (Look, mine does this! I want that one. Okay- you run off with mine, look at what I do to yours, etc.)
When I first saw the movie, I was in my early teens. I was with my best friend at the time and in that segment she said “that’s exactly like you!” We laugh about it and she didn’t give it much thought, but it was kind of a wake up call for me. First because although I already knew I was kind of different, I believed any intelligent person would think and act the same way, including my friend to whom I frequently told what was going on in my head. In that moment I realized my assumption was wrong. I was naïve back then, I considered my behavior to be defensive and never crossed my mind other people could perceived as a threat. I didn't had a name for it, but I was sure that what I believed to be an advantage could also be my ruin. After that incident I’ve rarely taken my mask off.
ReplyDeleteI am involved with a socio, I love the play but worry he'll go to far and hurt me, I know I'm more like a pet but try to set the limits for play with giving him opytions and consequences.
ReplyDeleteHe hasn't been able to hurt me anymore with verbal insults. What up with that (verbal insults) does it give him a rush to see my display of emotios). He must be disappointed because I'm pretty immune or just don't let it in. I know who I am.
@ wish i knew:
ReplyDeleteThat's the point. I relax and am myself most of the time, only by myself. And to answer your question, no, besides my family there is no other environment that i let myself relax into. It is especially hard right now cause i live in a campus with two room mates. I have to keep a mask all the time cause if they knew what i was actually they would probably be conspicuous. I haven't even tried to be friends with them, i actually tried to fight one of them(the weaker one). I am waiting for his revenge. Keeps me up at nights.
This is a great example of our reason for being the way we are (sans the whole being a woman in a man's world in the 18th century)
ReplyDeleteIf you took away the spooky music, it would be less dramatic and more to the point, but the devious side of me indulged in it a bit, I'm afraid.
I actually understand where Fred is coming from to some extent. I often don't slide into a mask for the day, but rather, instantly swap here and there to be whoever I need to be wherever I need to be. This is Dangerous. I don't do it consciously, but I shouldn't. If someone observes the transition, you will be labeled as two faced. The pleasure and simplicity of only being two faced. I'd love to know what that's like.
My socio friend remarked on it while we were having smokes after work ended. It was then that I realized I should try and solidify a persona to some extent. At least at work.
That's self defeating to cause anomosity were you live. Don't shit where you eat.
ReplyDeleteFake an apology with a good sob excuse so you can sleep better. Tell them you were a farrel child raised by stray dogs. Only joking I don't think they would believe it.
That last post of mine was to Fred and his situation.
ReplyDeleteTNP, I am trying to understand what is so natural and horrible about the real you) do you just want to physically attack everyone you come in contact with or something else)
this is hilarious. i often struggle with my near-constant one face. is the grass greener on the other side? i like the video - wish i could have LEARNT that a long time ago - but then, i'm not a socio, so it's barely possible.
ReplyDelete"I believed any intelligent person would think and act the same way"
ReplyDeleteThat's what I thought when I was younger, too.
I just had a thought about frustration. I know i read about it around here and never remembered feeling it. And then it came to me. I was once on amphetamines and at that degree of super knowledge you get i was like:"Is this all that is to humankind? In that case you might as well destroy it." And i said that out loud. My friends were stupefied. I remember that instant feeling a great frustration because i couldn't destroy the world. That's the same feeling i get when i want to make my room mates do something they don't want to do. It's a great feeling of repressed anger that almost brings me to tears. Obviously i can't let it out cause they'd know they're room mates to an evil mastermind. Anyway i get the feeling of frustration for not being able to be who i am.
ReplyDeleteTNP, I am trying to understand what is so natural and horrible about the real you) do you just want to physically attack everyone you come in contact with or something else)
ReplyDelete@wish i knew: Wanting to physically harm someone is not something that crosses my mind very often anymore, as I'm several years past the raging hormones of youth. The short answer is, I don't entirely know the Real Me. Like the Lady from the video, I understood from a certain age that I had to act a certain way in order to survive, and in doing so, learned that my existence did not have to be a prison.
You ask me what is so horrible about who I really am? What really goes on in my head? I don't think anyone truly wants those answers that cannot appreciate and accept us as we are, because in doing so, laying exposed, you'll see not caring humans, for we are not, no matter how much we would desire to be.
Were someone to listen to the conversations of two sociopaths, they would surely be horrified. I've had the luxury of having them, and knowing full well, the both of us, that these dialogs would appear completely blasphemous to the average passerby.
Would it disturb you to know that the both of us, can spot and find predators, prey, and even homosexuals, simply by watching them walk from one end of a sidewalk to another, almost instantly remarking on it out of earshot? I'm not sure why we have impeccable 'gaydar', but we do. A peculiar attribute acquired after years of study, I suppose.
Those are the most tame and innocent of activities that I indulge upon in a causal manner. If we can spot such things with a few seconds of observing you mid-gait, imagine what we know when having a causal conversation, and intimate conversation, or a sexual experience. Most humans aren't nearly as 'complicated' as they wished they were, and hardly unique. No one knows this quite like a sociopath.
"I believed any intelligent person would think and act the same way"
ReplyDeleteThat's what I thought when I was younger, too."
Me three.
Most people take their cues about who they are from society. But if you are by nature asocial, then you don’t have that luxury. You’re beyond peer pressure because you learn very early on that most of the people around you really aren’t your peers. At least, that’s how it was for me. So, when it came to figuring out who and what I was, I came to see that it was all up to me. Self invention is a willful, conscious act. It could even be turned into an art form. That’s why I love the scene from Dangerous Liaisons. Here is a character elucidating this whole issue as clearly as I have ever heard it said in mainstream media.
Yeah dude but self invention takes something else too besides creativity. You have to be able to act the way you say you are whenever it is necessary and if a situation arises where you wouldn't want to keep playing the role, what are you going to do? Say you pose as a relatively brave fellar and a situation arises where you have to stand up to a stronger fellar or to more fellars and you think that based on what you did till then you ought to start fighting these guys. You cower out, at least that's what i did, and the whole act is over. Your friends will look at you differently, like, what else isn't true? You have to drop everything. All i am saying is that inventing yourself takes some precaution and brains also besides creativity.
ReplyDeletedo you ever get mixed signals? perhaps someone who appears like prey, but realise they aren't so easy to get to after all? or vice versa?
ReplyDeleteI started my life thinking that whatever i did was allowed and i did lots of stuff, ruining people, fucking with them and stuff till all the people i hurt united against me. And believe me, they were lots. That's when i had to drop the act and start showing everybody what a nice dude i was. Now i only hurt or destroy if i am certain that i can get away with it.
ReplyDelete@8:52 Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteNot often. I can think of two distinct cases where I was surprised.
"I have no illusions. I lost them on my travels."
ReplyDelete^Another lovely sentiment. If I replace 'travels' with 'intellectual wanderings' then Valmont's words above would be true of me as well as the marquise's words.
ReplyDeleteAs usual, Daniel appears from the shadows to save me the trouble of saying anything at all.
ReplyDeleteConversely, every time I read one of Fred's comments, I throw up in my mouth a little.~
I never actually made it through this whole movie, but I'm not much of a literary type and I have little tolerance for films set in whatever century France. I did, however, love Cruel Intentions.
ReplyDeleteEverybody loses in the end.
ReplyDeleteI re-invent myself whenever I meet new people. I don't play different roles as Fred puts it, I generally just try to figure out peoples likes and dislikes and then pretend to have everything in common with them. I can do this fairley easly but I don't really see the point in making new friends unless I can gain something from doing so. I usually just stick with with the circle of friends who I've surrounded myself with for years now. I don't enjoy their company very much but I keep them around because they all have something to offer and I figured out all of their intrests a long time a go so it's easy to fit in. I would say that I'm immune to peer pressure as just don't genuinely care about other peoples interests or opinions and as Daniel said, I don't really consider anyone as my peer. I remember that throughout my childhood and early teens I just felt different to others, but I'm 18 now and for a long time I've just felt that I'm somehow, above everyone else.
ReplyDeleteCould i get some objective insight into my dad from you knowing folk. i can only give you an outline cos i've never penetrated his head myself, nor cared to. he's a successful businessman, big fish in a small pond kind of thing, he mixes with high profile people and has a lot of social charm (joke after joke after joke, argh!). a show-off, loves attention. takes care of his appearance. he shows warmth easily and is affectionate and when he's not raging, he's in a happy-go-lucky mood. he is generous with his cash. he was absent totally whilst I was growing up, only seeing us once or twice a year for a few days. in those days he was around he was controlling as hell. demanding everything to be just the way he liked it. always needing us fawning over him, always wanting us there. it was incessant. he always has copious energy. in those few days he would throw rages, fight with my mum, break stuff then leave again. he was physically abusive to her, and never to his kids. i resented him from a very young age, i was scared of him and hated how controlling and patriarchal he was, and a few years back resigned myself to the fact that the only thing that i wanted from him, his understanding of me, i was never gonna get. ie. he has fixed expectations that he projects onto us, no variance from that pleases him, like we are just an extension of him or something. so he lives in denial of what his kids are really up to. in terms of infidelity, my mum suspects. He doesn't do drugs or drink, he's veerrry 'religious' don't you know, but in a dogmatic and ritualistic, not 'spiritual' way. i'm highly sensitive and have said for years that him and I live on different planets. He's just unapproachable cos I feel he has too many dogmatic barriers, his 'reputation' almost superseding actually knowing us properly.
ReplyDeletei forgot to mention, as a kid (with loads of siblings) he was a bad student who got kicked out of numerous schools. always popular, he stole, he got into fights, punched teachers and god knows what else - he regales these stories with hilarity, over and over, but then pretends to feel bad about it - lmao it's so insincere.
i know he's no full-blown psychopath but
what's the first thing, if anything, that strikes you i can rule out?
what traits do you call these? narcissist? arsehole syndrome?;)......
i know my bro is a little bit socio so i wondered if he got it from my dad.
sorry, if it's not very informative. i did try. But i'll never find out otherwise.
deanna
Medusa said...
ReplyDeleteEverybody loses in the end.
Intrigue and Suspense within a close circle..What other outcomes could there be?. I love this movie and John Malkovich.
Indentation and paragraphs are your friend.
ReplyDelete@deanna.Sounds a little bit like my dad except for the physically abusive to mum part. As far as I remember he defers to her but I suspect she has some BPD traits thanks to this and other sites. But you write it so much better deanna. I look forward to the replies to your post and hope it will also bring some insights for me.
ReplyDelete@ Daniel Birdick,
ReplyDeleteI googled your name and landed on the Dr. Robert forum, (which seems to have a serious troll infestation, by the way) and your answer to one of the many long-winded "Am I a sociopath?" posts made me chuckle. I had to come back here and share. :)
You are not a sociopath.
There. How does that grab ya? Do you feel relieved? Disappointed? Is there a sudden desire to defend your status as proto-sociopath?
@Pythias: That's how I spot the "speshul snowflake" teenagers (and, unfortunately often, adults)... they defend their self-diagnosis like it's beyond reproach, as if their biased self-estimation is somehow unquestionable. Clinging to labels that hard just to give yourself an "interesting" backstory is a sure sign of desperation.
ReplyDeletethanks GagReflex
ReplyDeletemy mum's sensitive and doesn't mind being controlled. not that she didn't hit back at him, she did, and she smashed his merc windscreen with an axe. lolage.
apart from that, couldn't tell you if she has bpd or anything else as it's too close to home.
deanna
Dare I venture and risk the wrath of many here by saying that I do concur with Pythias about Daniel. Strictly on based on what I've read and my own crude interactions with him before. If not a pathological sociopath what then? What the hell, as they say what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger so here goes!
ReplyDeleteWith what are you concurring, exactly? It didn't seem like Pythias was making any comment about Daniel's pathology or lack thereof.
ReplyDeleteI think you misunderstood Pythias's post, Gagreflex.
ReplyDeletePerhaps we could trade explanations here? Could you explain the post you made in response to this;
ReplyDeletePythias said; You are not a sociopath.
There. How does that grab ya? Do you feel relieved? Disappointed? Is there a sudden desire to defend your status as proto-sociopath?
@ GagReflex
ReplyDeleteYes, the italicized part was something Daniel wrote to some kid. Not holding an advanced degree, not having many years of research in the field, and only interacting with others online, I tend not to do the "You are/are not X, Y, or Z" thing, but Daniel seems to have really studied this extensively and to have a good handle on the topic.
Great clip. I like how she tells her story with that smirk on her face. As if she has the world at her feet, she did until the end, and controls everything around her, except for a man like herself. I don't quite remember how it ended except that she was utterly ruined. But I can see how she became that way..win or die. For women in those days, if they weren't intelligent enough to manipulate their world..they would die, indeed.
ReplyDeleteGrace
My mistake then. Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were referring to Daniel. And I was thinking coming on for the ride. Jeeze! I must be so bored.
ReplyDeleteaha! i knew i should have addressed my post to daniel birdick. so he is mr.knowledge after all.
ReplyDeletedeanna
Ugh... I've just been trawling through the Dr. Robert forums. The good doctor seems to have lost his composure in recent months. He also seems to like Daniel an awful lot more than he used to. What a charmer our Birdick is.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about it and I've come to relies that up until the age of about 13 I actually spent a shitload of my time alone. I wasn't a social outcast or reject, It's just that hadn't yet grasped the true importance of making(and keeping) friends and being well liked, so I never made a great effort to socialise outside of school.
ReplyDeleteI know this is off topic but I was just wondering if this sounds familiar to anyone else here. I ask this question not just because of my own experiences, but also because of the stereotype that sociopaths are these strange loners that live on the fringes of society. Is there any truth to this stereotype? I've never thought so.
PS,
ReplyDeleteI mostly found threads that the doc hadn't been posting in. And, yes, he does seem to have taken quite the shine to the illustrious Mr. Birdick.
Also, kudos to me in my quest to procrastinate some reading that I really very much do not want to do.
Misanthrope,
ReplyDeleteI'm sure some do. Simpley because some feel unconfortable around people for various reasons. Then there sociopaths who are well mixed in with the rest of us. People can assume that sociopaths aren't capable of living among the masses but they are. That's why it can be very difficult to dedect one. I think it depends on how functional they are and how well they operate in life.
Grace
"victim no more" she seems to think, "I'll do it to others before they'll do it to me".
ReplyDeleteI understand in this movie, that this behaviour was a noble class hobby - and nothing else - a way to survive boredom. Laces, silks, hunts, conquests ... boredom!
I do prefer cardinal Richelieu, he reminds a male king of hearts.
Has anyone seen the new BBC version of Sherlock, where Sherlock Holmes is supposed to be a sociopath.
ReplyDeleteIf so, is it a realistic portrayal to you? He seems to be walking around maskless.
"victim no more" she seems to think, "I'll do it to others before they'll do it to me".
ReplyDelete"One of the reasons that I never remarried, despite a quite bewildering range of offers, was the determination never again to be ordered around."
I totally missed this movie when it was new, and ever since, apparently. I love, love, love it! Thanks for posting the clip, M.E.
ReplyDeleteAt the end she literally takes off her mask. Quite the performance.
ReplyDeleteGlenn Close is so damn good at personality disorders.
Glenn Close was a great choice. I think the whole movie is casted well with the exception of Keanu Reeves.
ReplyDeleteLove her in Damages.
ReplyDeleteLadies..guess what
ReplyDeleteThe ex wife just told me she is sending me a check in the morning. I believe her. I don't think she knows he is planning to give me money, not that I know that was going to happen for sure. I'm not going to text him to tell him. I'm just going to wait and see what happens. Wouldn't it be funny if I got money from both of them?..lol But she probably told him she was doing that so whatever. Not that I would keep it..he'd be here with a gun. It's like a friggin circus with this guy.
Sorry to post my drama on your blog M.E.
Grace
Grace,Baby, that's called "Interest"!
ReplyDeleteHey, this blog is based off of drama, basically. Par for the course.
ReplyDeleteGlad you are getting your money.
how ironic that would be.
ReplyDeleteGrace
Haha...Sherlock.
ReplyDelete"I'm not a psychopath, Anderson, I'm a high-functioning sociopath. Do your research."
Poor Keanu. I love that guy.
ReplyDeleteI used to live in Hollywood and had a job where I had to deal with celebrities on a regular basis. He was by far my favorite.
Quiet, always alone, showed up when no one else was around, very kind and polite, looked like a dirty unshaven bum all the time.
Most other celebrities were annoying and had an entitled air to them.
I loved that show. I can't wait for the new series.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMisanthrope said: "I generally just try to figure out peoples likes and dislikes and then pretend to have everything in common with them."
ReplyDeleteThis was my common approach, however I changed it up. I'd match myself with things in common, and both go along, and inversely oppose likes or interests they mention, typically the latter being the more trivial. People will remember and gain some matter of admiration or kinship for the things you appreciate, but you do want to stand out somehow, unless you simply want to be a shadow in the pack. My ego simply does not allow this. It's a lot easier than grandiose lying to try and one-up someone.
Misanthrope said: "I've been thinking about it and I've come to relies that up until the age of about 13 I actually spent a shitload of my time alone. I wasn't a social outcast or reject, It's just that hadn't yet grasped the true importance of making(and keeping) friends and being well liked, so I never made a great effort to socialise outside of school."
I think this is rather common, as this was about the same time that I too realized that I needed to make more than a few friends. I learned my first day of pre-school the importance of having SOME friends (one, maybe two, the wilder the better) when I was basically the new meat and was treated so, sort of like prison hazing...
In regards to your second section of asking about loner traits, I think it boils down to this. There is little desire for the act of engaging in friendship. You may spot someone that catches your interest, but there's never this soul-crushing loneliness. I can go weeks without talking to anyone without so much as a second thought, so long as I keep myself occupied.
I can really relate to Marquise de Merteuil in the video, but for a slightly different reason. I was raised by a very religious father, who had very religious friends, always going to religious, morally uptight events. I had to act proper or suffer the consequences of being ostracized, the disdain of my father, and the abhorrence of my 'peers'.
As Daniel put it, I've never felt that people anywhere near my age group were peers. I've felt some measure of comfort speaking with people around twice my age, because at least they have something to say. Since I mostly dealt with my father's friends growing up do to so much moving, I found having conversations with people my age to generally be boring or outright idiotic/ignorant. I'm aware of naivety, but it didn't touch on the level most people my age had.
Nowadays, once in a blue moon I will find someone my age that I can actually have real conversations with. They are so rare that I usually remember those people and make a point to befriend them.
Great movie (John Malkovich is brilliant, Glenn Close too). Oddly, both of their characters end up victims of their own game. She may have even shed a tear when he was killed by the jealous bf.
ReplyDeleteoops - spoiler alert for those that haven't seen the movie yet!
ReplyDeleteShe did. But only one. And that one tear was for herself.
ReplyDeleteI just watched Cruel Intentions. That was a poor imitation, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteRemind me not to ever look up my touchier exes on Facebook again. I check in to wish her a happy birthday (no ulterior motive, girls, don't even start), and I see that she's joined this lolfest. I'm mostly offended that one of the smarter women I've known has allowed herself to be roped into Lovefraud style nonsense. I expected better. ~sigh~
ReplyDeleteI just looked into this Lovefraud.com business. I guess you'd have to be a hell of a 'con-man' to act as if you love a face like that. Good riddance.
ReplyDeleteDon't get me started on that top, girlfriend. *snaps fingers*~
I'll take your word for it. I went there once, when they band UKan. The few lines I read were disgusting. I won't go back; not even to make fun of ugly tops.
ReplyDelete*banned. (Jesus, this damn cat that screams at me when I'm typing is giving me psychopathic feelings toward it.)
ReplyDeletePsychopathic Feelings. Is that an oxymoron?
ReplyDeleteOnly if they're fluffy.
ReplyDeleteCats or feelings?~
ReplyDeleteMy brain goes all to hell after a certain point in the evening. It's almost two a.m. here. I think I'll go to bed before I trip over my tongue anymore.
ReplyDelete"Would you mind telling me whose brain I did put in?"
ReplyDelete"And you won't be angry?"
"I will not be angry!"
"Abby someone."
"Abby someone. Abby who?"
"Abby Normal."
Cats lack empathy and compassion.
ReplyDeletefrom here.
I laughed when I saw that on The Oatmeal a few weeks ago, shaking my head and nodding... (About the general part)
ReplyDeleteThere, now the seal is broken. From now on, I'm skipping the grammar diatribes and just linking to the relevant Oatmeal comic.
ReplyDeleteHah, PMS that profile pic is hilarious.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite is when people do those passive-aggressive likes.
Such as "so-and-so likes IT'S BETTER TO HAVE LOVED & LOST THAN TO LIVE WITH THE PSYCHO THE REST OF YOUR LIFE"
Which, admittedly, I almost fell for myself.
PostmodernSociopath likes IF THIS GROUP REACHES A MILLION, WE'LL ALL FUCKING KILL OURSELVES and Kitten Party and Kitten Party EXTREME!!!!
ReplyDeleteHaha, clever hrefs.
ReplyDeleteI had hoped they'd be recursively referential (hreferential?~), but instead they all point to your previous comment. The blog likes you better than me. :P
ReplyDeleteThough now I also see that they operate differently in the comment popup... neat. Empty hrefs... I'd never really thought about the oddities that can pop up with their usage.
ReplyDeleteHuh, never occurred to be that "ref" means reference. Like how olive oil comes from....whoa! Olives.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the "h"? HTML?
Random thought: new In Treatment season started tonight.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if they will have a sociopathic or narcissistic patient on that show.
What's the "h"? HTML?
ReplyDeleteThe "h" stands for "hypertext". So... yeah, basically.
@Medusa: Who is to say they haven't?
ReplyDelete"Abby Normal" - Where did that come from, Note?
ReplyDeleteI have a question about masks/social relationships.
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of a loner, but an empath. I "care" about people, but I often don't enjoy engaging with them.
I don't understand the taking on other people's likes, I don't find this necessary, but at the same time, I don't go around collecting friends.
For the sociopath, there is a lot of talk about emptiness, not having a personality. And yet, you are all different and display different personalities and interests. So I don't quite get it.
You don't actually have to pretend to be into things that other people like to be an unobtrusive person, am I correct? You just do it to be in a position to manipulate them, or no?
It's not really that you are nothing without the mask, you are a distinctive person, plus you have acts that you put on around people,, riight?
NotablePath says Nowadays, once in a blue moon I will find someone my age that I can actually have real conversations with. They are so rare that I usually remember those people and make a point to befriend them.
I mean this is true for me too, though I would just make it a point to talk to them again, not necessarily befriend them.
@Postmodern & Pythias
Would you say that Sherlock is a sociopath who does not display a mask, or is he still prettying it up, or not a sociopath?
One of my favorite movies. One of my favorite books. And one of the best performances. Glenn Glose you are a Goddess.
ReplyDeleteI went to the facebook victim's page that Post linked to. Here's a gem from one of the comments there:
ReplyDelete"How is this relevent to one being victimized by a sociopath? Overly philosophical and analytical for this page."
Really?! I will never understand people who do not wish to analyze what role they played in contributing to their own unhappiness.
@bibi: Take away all the layers and masks, and I'm a sum of all the parts that I begged, borrowed and stole from other people. I don't think I've ever had the leisure to 'be myself' in large part to my childhood. I have no idea who that person is.
ReplyDeleteI hope M.E. writes a follow-up book. I like to know more about
ReplyDeleteher "take" on things. I want to know wether she was fired from her
teaching job or if she ever WILL drop her mask. In today's America,
she will be welcomed NOT scorned.
Interesting. This was always one of my favorite movies that I watched at least three times or more a year in the past. I related to both characters. I would read Ayn Rand as her work matched my thinking/feeling processes (reason) and watch The Fountainhead over and over again. That, along with vampire movies, Dorian Gray (an all time favorite especially since people today tell me I never seem to grow old and I love telling them I am a vampire). Today I have to be careful not to be pulled back into what I really am - a sociopath - because I reinvented myself into someone who is positive, kind, loving and optimistic. Which one is the real me? Both, but I CHOOSE to be the better person. Boring as that may be...I am more at peace with myself, God and those around me. I still don't "feel" things like normal people, but my actions are intentionally for the best towards myself and others.
ReplyDeleteSociopath 506
what a sociopath sais : age is a state of mind
ReplyDeletewhat he means : i'll never grow up
Lotso people say that
DeleteWhen I saw this video clip I saw a woman in a time of history where women were hgeld down and dominated in society by men. They did not have the right to vote, could not take jobs equally as men did, and where under payed.
ReplyDeleteThen this woman tells a story on how she got ahead in this world, by cunning tricks, by using information(secrets?) to her advantage. This is a repeating pattern among women through up history in all times when men have dominated. To get ahead, they manipulate. How is this sociopathy? I see this as a product od theyr time, and maybe perhaps even a female trait that because of what I have explained this far has evolved as a propesity in many women?
I love the Viking sagas, so I will make a comparrison even here. Many of the women in those stories did exactly these things. Manipulating circumstances to get men to do what they wanted. In a male dominated world where physical ableness is detirmining, this manipulation was necessary for these women to get what they wanted. On the other hand, the Viking sagas are very male dominated. Most saga characters are male, and a whole lot less are female(those who played a significant role in the stories). Thus one can't really draw a detirministic picture of women in general at that time just by what is told about these women.
And about truth in those sagas; at least they were true enough to find the Viking settlements in New Foundland (wcich cancels Christoffer Colombus as the discoverer of the american continent).
The woman.
ReplyDeleteThis awkward creature finds itself confused when outside its natural habitat: The kitchen.
Gangs of psychopaths or covert clubs filled with "hollow schemers" surely are unlikely? One psycho & many puppets most likely is the rule in reality? A friend of mine thinks so anyway, and he is of the scheming, cold kind. Read somewhere that psychos have some sort of "psycho-dar" an avoid each other. In a room with 5 hollow people there are 4 too many..
ReplyDelete