Because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons..."
Let's analyze this as an economist would.
When making decisions people go after maximizing some utility function. This could be tied to many thing: money, fame, security, safety, instant-gratification, tease, gain favor, who knows.
A smart person is good at choosing the best alternative that maximizes his utility function at the time of decision making. To say that he chose the alternative for a 'non-smart' reason is to say that someone (or the decision maker himself sometime later as he looks back) is analyzing the decision with a different utility function and is criticizing the utility function that was chosen at the point of decision making. (Doing the right thing for wrong reasons... Garbage in garbage out... Fallacies, etc. etc.)
A smart person looking back at a decision made in this fashion will have three choices.
1. Accept that the chosen utility function was erroneous and not to jump to maximizing a utility function that's quickly derived in the future.
2. Punish himself. Regret, feel remorseful, keep reliving the mistake, get into an emotional bind (empaths warned here)
3. Kind of know the mistake but to avoid any shitty self punishment simply summarize the reasons that must have made him choose the utility function he chose and that is what ME calls believing weird shit. Heck, if it's gonna make me feel better and prevent me from doing '2' above, rationalization is not a bad short term solution at all. And, yes, smart people will both knowingly and unknowingly use this tool to prevent excessive self-punishment.
I had a sense that my ex wanted me to make him feel feelings he couldn't feel on his own but he knew they existed. This is when I started to get strange thoughts about him. He said to me about his ex gf (girlfriend before me) she made me feel like no other woman could..”I just want to crawl under her skin where I can breath and live.” That’s weird no? How can someone make a sociopath feel that way…probably because she didn’t put up with his crap and the more she refused to see him the more he wanted her. But that’s just a theory I have.
Mike, if you don't feel that warm,fuzzy all joyful love, if you see it in another person toward you does that give you a feeling of your own like a rush?
When your in a freindly conversation are your getting the other person to enjoy what your saying and making them laugh and it goes back and forth between is this a sharing of feelings?
Once my socio ex started sleeping after sex as opposed to making me happy I poured a large bucket of water to his face (not caring about drying the bed afterwards). Boy, I am so happy I did that. I should have a Bucket Day and celebrate every year.
Grace, maybe he did just want to cause jealousy. You seem like the type of person that wanted him to feel secure and the harder it seems you work at that the more bored they seem to get.
@Grace: I've had a woman who could make me feel like none of the others could. I don't know if I would use the same terminology he did, but I can understand the sentiment.
It's like a drug you've never had before, and when it's gone, you have no idea if the next dealer you meet will have it. So far, I haven't found any more of 'the good stuff'. It's not a flaw with the women, I'd imagine. I guess there's just something more I need, that the average partner does not possess.
"Mike, if you don't feel that warm,fuzzy all joyful love, if you see it in another person toward you does that give you a feeling of your own like a rush?
When your in a freindly conversation are your getting the other person to enjoy what your saying and making them laugh and it goes back and forth between is this a sharing of feelings?"
Dude, don't know about that. I know that if i see i can modify another person's mood or something it's good cause i feel like i hit something. That's all i am saying.
'What did you feel when he said that? Felt jealous?"
Yes I did. Anyone would no? But yet it seemed sick in some way and I didn't want to behave like a teenager about it, I had to control myself. I told him not to expect that from me and if it's something he felt with me than fine but I cannot manifest those feelings for him artifically..that's not really love.
I had asked him about her, he didn't offer much info on his own. But this women he was with was playing him..she would only see him when she felt like it. She was in control of the relationship. In the end he was using me to get her jealous and it worked for a while. They don't see each other now. So now he's has no one...not her or me.
We can empathize with others but we can't usually don't have compassion, if you had no ability to empathize whatsoever, you could never manipulate a person, although i admit at the same time, i find it tedious to put myself in the mind of another person.
Others may think it would be cool being a sociopath, but it's really the opposite, imagine not knowing who you truly are, but at the same time not giving a damn either, drifting from one impulse to another, using people up and then dumping them, bored stiff every fucking day.
Hey. I do not know what I am, all I know is that I am able to turn emotions and empathy (or... sympathy) off, and apparently, I've found: ON. I am going to tell you something useful: I turned it on for 6 months and played it at full blast, fell in love (love. with someone who was possibly a S or NPD or something) and yes, at first I liked it, it was very new and excitingBut when things turned sour, the pain was unfathomable. I turned it off to save myself and for a week I floated in the deep of nothingness, it was like getting home to a warm bed and a fireplace after trekking for months in a mountain without a tent... or something. I'm waiting for boredom to come back, and can't wait. Bless the boredom , bless the void, bless the nothingness. Amen. Never try it, people, unless you know you can turn it back off despite deep sympathy for the other person and a fear of hurting them if you do. It's quite dangerous.
Most if not all sociopaths are unsentimental at their core, as stated in a previous post, we don't have the "blue print" of accepted behaviors and beliefs that normal folks have.The psychopaths motto is "What's one less person on the planet?"
The reason why a psychopath can come off as irrational, is because we rarely internalize criticism, in that i mean we don't break it down and analyze the sleight, we take it personally.
You can joke around with a psychopath on a superficial level, but once you underestimate or try to control them you are in trouble.
"Hang on... this talk of feeling things because other people feel them... you realise that's empathy, right? Or at least, I thought it was..."
Sure that's true. But some people are "empty" without the presence of another person and cannot feel good about the world unless they can live through another. Nothing wrong with needing people..we all do but for what reasons? That's the difference.
"You can joke around with a psychopath on a superficial level, but once you underestimate or try to control them you are in trouble."
i just usually feel numb when asked to sympathize with someone (on anything other than a purely intellectual basis) and usually end up saying something lame--real sympathy or compassion is just not there. empathy is a different story. i guess it is impossible to manipulate someone without it.
i love david byrne. he's such a friendly cyborg. :)
what about those strange sudden bursts of rage in terms of protecting others? i know a lot of socios have them, and it doesn't seem to fit with anything else. i have them and am always mystified afterwards. it doesn't come from sympathy, but from something else--i'm not sure what that is.
I hate it that you guys see the world this way. The fact that someone uses someone and then dumps them is not sociopathy, none of the alleged facts that prove someone is a sociopath is sociopathy. All of that could be done by a normal guy any time of the week. If you look around by those standards then you might be tempted to say that 50% percent of the people you see around you are sociopaths.
There are interests at stake. A normal guy sometimes doesn't care about what happens after just as long as he gets his need done. Take a junkie for example. Some of them suck dick for a dose. Why wouldn't someone else do something that is not as bad, like stepping over their conscience.
this is the way i see it: the junkie is helpless. he doesn't have a choice. his need for the drug is making his decisions for him (or her.)
if someone steps over his conscience, he has a set of ethical standards but is choosing to ignore them--he has a choice.
supposedly sociopathy is the condition of having no conscience, no instinctive sense of morality or ethics. there still may be choice involved, however. someone who is sociopathic might struggle to make a conscious effort to behave in pro-social ways, even though the instincts to do so aren't there.
so.. in theory anyway, someone can be a sociopath but behave in less damaging ways than someone who isn't. it just takes more effort, learning, and going against basic instincts than someone who has an innate sense of what's harmful or not.
My x-socio boyfriend used to ask me to tell him stories about other people's lives and motives. It was really sad as I could see he wished he was inside the warm room instead of looking through the window... Like the Little Match Girl. Without this stimulation he was an inert corpse..is that how it feels when your not making someone else to feel. What's it feel like if nothing comes your way..depression? describe it for me please..
@Mike: Some good points. From my point of view, the difference is basically the ability to side-step the conscience for what you need, versus not having one at all, and only having a superficial conscience to use when necessary. Being conscientious without conscience, if you will.
@whoever asked: She was a severe Borderline.
I think taking criticism is more a matter of maturity than on a pathological issue. You might initially take it personally, but you should have the capacity to stop yourself for a second and really think about it before lashing out. If anything, it takes some practice.
I know what you're talking about Zed. I saw this but it was aimed at women only. But like Post mentioned about the toy...once a new toy comes along, we are no longer that important.
@ grace: yes, i agree--i don't have the sense that i'm doing it for altruistic reasons; i just wasn't sure why i was doing it. i think as long as i feel that someone is an extension of me, i will have protective rages--gender doesn't seem to matter (but then, i'm female and, by labels, bi-sexual, so i suppose that kind of possessiveness can extend to people of either gender.)
and sometimes i have an odd sense of "family" with this person or that, this group or that--even if briefly--and i will go into a rage if i feel that any of them are being attacked. it usually isn't rational, and i often end up making things worse.
it also doesn't mean that my own behavior towards them (the people i'm identifying with) is generally above reproach. :)
I don't use the terminology toy, per se, but I can understand the connect. Sometimes, I don't care if someone I'm close to is hurt. Sometimes, I'll go into a fit of rage. It's not even person to person exclusive. It either happens or it doesn't. There are some people where it is more prone to happen, though.
I guess, they don't even have to be terribly close. Just someone I consider to be of value.
I haven't lived anywhere for more than four years, so making a "close" bond for me doesn't take much time. I just assess if someone's worth it or not.
@ notable: i don't know if it's redundant to say yes, i do, but yes--i do. and i can't always predict when it will happen or not either, or when a similar sleight will only end in apathy. it isn't very consistent.
i'm not sure either if it's even an outcome of feeling close to someone--it could be someone i don't really know. maybe that is an outcome of considering that person of value for some reason or another.
I think I might have an idea of what it might be. Just a theory, though. When someone violates someone I value, not something simple or impulsive, per se? Premeditated harm, or a sick type of harm, happening to them, you know? Not some dummy getting his nosed bloodied in a bar fight or suffering something from being dumb.
It's not some hero crap, or anything, I don't think. Perhaps it's a shallow form of empathy, the rage that comes with being powerless, if you will? I'm not sure.
I don't really have that many friends anymore Notable, I'm not saying I'm a loner by any means but it's just one of those times when the mask is completely off and everyone can see you for what you are, a paranoid hateful person.
If i wanted some ego stroking, id usually go to a club and pick out a sucker to befriend, get their number etc. Then id usually start telling them that I know some of the biggest criminals around, to put some fear in them, after that you pretty much have a willing victim.
@ notable: i'm not sure. sometimes i can go off about something that isn't premeditated, it just strikes the wrong chord for some reason or another. but i can see where something like that might be a specific trigger for someone.
"the rage that comes with being powerless:" that sits with me. i can't really define it more than that--it's just an intuitive sense that yes, that's what i feel.
i think i see the other's person's powerlessness in the face of something, and since i identify with that person or see him/her as an extension of me--i feel that i can't allow that loss of power to happen. it's a reflection of my own loss of power.
my ex told me that if anyone ever hurt me or my son he would kill them. This statement came out of the blue. I was like what? A few minutes later I was flattered by it and he made me feel safe..from what I don't know cause the only one that hurt me was him. Creep.
TNP "the rage that comes with being powerless, if you will? I'm not sure."
I'm not sure either but that sounds pretty good to me.
You need to know Grace, that there are a million reasons he could have said that, as stated sociopaths and narcissists do not see you as a person with your own goals and dreams if he is truly a narc, he will cut you off from your family, break any self esteem you have and project everything at you "You grew up in a dysfunctional family" "Your such a narcissistic bitch" they believe they are all good and the world is bad and full of sinners.
@ grace. lol. i don't doubt it. sometimes i think the only consistent thing about me is my complete lack of consistency.
i think a relationship with a socio has to be a little bit of a slam dance. it may be why socio's and bpd's go together so well--as vulnerable as they can be, bpd's can also go head to head with us when they want to.
another socio? i don't know. i've tried that, and it didn't end well. he was physically violent. i can deal with almost anything else, but that didn't sit well. he was gone pretty quickly.
I honestly don't know how you all can say a bpd and a socio make a good relationship, if i were in a relationship with a bpd I'd torture them lol I would be like a fat kid in a chocolate factory.
They can be surprisingly detached and masochistic at times... Hurting someone isn't as fun when they like it.
What mine did for me, well, she kept things interesting. It was very hard to be bored. It was sort of like having multiple partners. Never knew which one she was going to be from one hour to the next.
Anon, I told a guy that if we were ever an item I'd have killed him in two weeks. He was a narcissist. I wasn't joking. One of my lines is, 'I'm being serious.' And I truly felt like hiring a hitman to deal with him - we weren't EVEN together!
They can be exciting... easily excited? Dunno. Easily sent on edge? Definitely. Take things extremely personal, but sometimes I wonder if it's fake. How often? It's hard to say.
I try to be conscientious, and sometimes dealing with her emotions was like skipping naked in a minefield after drinking a few too many...
It was worth it though. Whatever she did for me... it was definitely worth it.
easily excited? with me, yes, most definately. some would say hyper. Histrionics are very changeable too - one second up, the next, down, the next, raging etc. Like a box of chocolates...
empathy - yes, but we're all different. I have very strong empathy.
I'd like to give myself some credit here by pointing out something interesting. Since we wear our hearts on our sleeve we get the 'truth' out of people more quickly than others, I would say. I don't waste my time in relationships or with people I know don't appreciate me. Does that make sense?
It's like fast-tracking your way through social dynamics. Slow-burning just doesn't appeal or work in my case. It's alien.
And yes, i'm blunt. It's childish. hmm
It's at it's height when I'm dealing with another PD person. With the sane, (and yes, I really mean sane), they enable me to be normal and blend in. My current bf is very sane and he thinks I'm an angel. I can't argue with him there. ;)
truth is, for all my bark, i wouldn't hurt a fly. If i meant to kill that guy i wouldn't have said it. It doesn't mean I didn't feel like doing it cos I did. And I knew for sure (for all my empathy) I wouldn't have cried a single tear over him or regretted it. (perhaps I would have regretted the jail sentence lol).
But no, i'll always walk away rather than do something like that. I'd have loved to kick the crap out of him though, but i know it's a kind of rage that doesn't amount to anything.
I can cut someone down to size with my words though. It's a dodgy line to walk.
I thought he was smart, he is smart and I thought the only way to keep things interesting was to do interesting things...not just sex. I took him to see a Picasso and we went horse back riding...I showed him constellations in the sky and explained how photons from star light are millions of years old..stuff like that.lol(drama) I thought that's what I had to do to keep it interesting...not play head games. I suck at that. I made up a book of questions for us to talk about while we were on long rides to his parents and he loved it. I wasn't boring! And what did he do for me...he showed me how to shoot a gun! Is this not craziness or what?..lol. wtf. My point is that I'm missing something. Something I can't put my finger on and I know no one can answer this for me but that's where I'm stuck. It's hard to believe that all that good stuff didn't matter to him...when he made it seem like it did at the time. And on top of that I'm pretty too!! CHRIST!
anon 6:37: by "bunny boiling," i didn't mean general obsessiveness. i meant an ability to switch off from any emotions a beeper may have had for you and to seek revenge if harm is done. (i just googled the definition again, and was reminded of the perceived obsessiveness part.)
You tried, and I'm sure he noticed. You sound like a good gal, Grace. Sounds like you did a damn good job keeping it interesting.
I actually don't like head games being played on me from a partner. When I'm with them, I want to feel like we're beyond it, as a couple, if you will? I still like to play them against her to a very minor extent sometimes, I admit. It's very selfish, but it's not about hurting her, it's about having a go for a laugh, and it usually isn't much at all traumatizing.
I've crossed this line before, though. Part of me really enjoyed the agony and distress, but it broke her. It broke her, and she didn't look at me the same way again. I realized then that I shouldn't play games like that with people I want as a lover. Anyone else, I couldn't care less, but someone I've decided to form a physical relationship is off limits, one of my rules I made later in life. Even though I might not be able to fully trust them, I want them to trust me.
Maybe through some introspection I can figure out what might be missing or different. If I can figure it out, or come to a decent hypothesis, I'll give you a holler.
Grace, I presume it was just too comfortable for him. who knows. people are crazy. have any female non-sociopaths here ever really wanted to kill someone, say an ex or otherwise? Is it really just me? (not to say you would have, but just really loved the thought of it). ok, socios are welcome to answer too. I'd just like to know i'm not the only one. :)
life's a bitch then you die. (i'm so unoriginal it hurts.)
i take it you like mythology? i did some greek mythology at school. can't say i remember a great deal of it though. I remember a lot of the plays though, the tragedies, epic as ever, the comedies usually always shit though. The Iliad - brilliant.
i couldn't tell. had to look it up. This is so weird but Philoctetes was one of my favorite plays i had to read and it was about a warrior left alone on an island during the trojan war. I now see the connection which is that my favorite movies are about incarceration and isolation. I love prison and castaway movies. weird.
He took his hat off and had long black black hair, a bit of a fetish of mine. We sat down in the restaurant and he looked at me with those intense blue eyes.
He turned into some version of Nick Cave in my head.
I read some lovefraud stuff at first, yes. Never participated. Didn't take long for me to get annoyed and I desired to delve deeper than to just find a place to lay blame.
First time I caught him in a lie was two weeks in, although later I found out there were many more lies he concocted before then. He then told a lie to cover that lie.
Some lie about not having a myspace account. Why lie about something so stupid and easy to figure out.
I knew then that I needed to throw him to the curb. I don't know why I didn't. I liked him enough, I guess.
I told him he was a sociopath a couple of years ago because he was trying to make me feel bad and blame me for being pissed off that he was a lying shady asshole, and because I told him that apology-by-text was not good enough for me. All I requested was that he looked me in the eye (he later said it took him two years to figure out that that was what I needed, even though I was pretty clear about it in the first place). That was before I even knew much about sociopathy beyond common knowledge.
It's clear he did some sociopathy research some time after that, because a couple years later he basically listed off the DSM ASPD attributes to explain to me why he was having a hard time having a relationship, but then followed that by saying, "I have sooo much empathy and I'm soo sensitive."
He's also the master of the pity play when caught doing something bad. "My father told me I was stupid, my ex was a Malignant Narcissist, and look at my bullet wounds! Look at me I'm a survivor because I was a junkie who slept on gravestones. Look, I have absolutely no veins left in my arms."
How can you be a survivor when what you 'survived' you did to yourself?
I totally relate. I was very tolerant of his oddities, I would have dealt with more than most people would have with him. I *know* that we had an insane amount of fun together. After he dumped me (for me being "too comfortable"-- a trait he loved when we were anywhere except in his home together, where he had asked me to live...) he said he would never be able to think of the time we spent together without smiling, that it had been amazing.
Which, of course is how I ended up getting so comfortable, he described it thus--"You are the kind of person who in always comfortable in your surroundings, everywhere you go and with any kind of person you are around. I'm never that comfortable; I'm always on point....to the point that I'm almost on edge." And that was how he explained that we could not date. However, early on in the relationship I asked him why he went from us just hanging out as friends to knowing he was interested in me and he described when we went out together last new year's eve in vivid detail; he had taken me to his best friend's parents' house. I didn't know the friend or anyone at the parents' party; they were all my parents' age. But I waltzed in and immediately got to know half the guests; the mom had a similar tattoo as one of mine by the same artist, a woman had a daughter living in the same city I was living in at the time going to school there and we discussed the city, I did a shot with 4 others, and talked to a real estate agent and promised that when I was ready to start a business in my hometown and move back that I'd use her to find what I want. He said he was impressed by the ease with which I "work a room" and I protested saying it wasn't my intent to make a splash or impress people or "work" the room. He said that he knew that and that my natural skill at it and lack of guile was what impressed him. Of course I was tickled that he was so observant of me and so astute in figuring me out. It just really sticks in my craw that he had the nerve to tell me that he loved me because of abc and also that he didn't wish to date me for the exact same reason. I sort of expected better of him than that.
I am positive that he does feel a huge amount of honest self-pity. But I also think he was very aware of what he was doing when he used it to his advantage. I'm sure he has a long history of being successful at doing it, being a one-time long-time junkie and all.
As far as being an idiot: while I'm not unintelligent, socially/emotionally I am.
I'm very much a reclusive loner (with short stints of social activity and social brilliance) and have very little relationship experience (which is my own personal red flag, I'm sure).
I forgive myself somewhat for my naivety due to this fact.
But I also know I buried the red flags deep within my psyche because I wanted to believe what I wanted to believe, despite the stop signs.
My internal dissonance ended up making me very very very sick, to the point that he commented on how thin (near anorexic looking) I was, to the point where I was very close to committing myself after it was all over. I experienced a paranoia previously unknown to me.
Still dealing with the physical effects of the whole thing. I have a condition now that hasn't gone away since shortly after I met him.
I dated a supposedly recovering junkie several years ago who choked me one time because I wouldn't give him back his heroin, which he handed me just to show it to me. That experience sounds traumatic, but it had nowhere hear the effect that this last dude had.
He later said he thinks he wanted to save him by taking me on the junk run and handing me the heroin. He has stayed clean since that incident, and we are still friends.
I have a history of drug people wanting me to save them. I had one dude take me on a crack run for the same reason.
I'm not Jesus, for fuck's sake. What is it about me?
inexperience is forgiveable. hell, always forgive yourself. Who else is gonna do it?
It's hard enough if it's your first love, but when it turns out he's a socio it's like the first time all over again anyway. Every relationship is gonna be different. It's a good learning curve since you've experienced an extreme. But don't let it keep you down.
And your health can't be sacrificed. You need it to go get at the world with newfound defiance.
What is it about you? hmm...you're a nice, enabling opportunity?
I've got a fair amount of defiance for sure, and that's kept me going, and is a huge source of motivation. Sometimes it wears me out, though, sometimes it feels like living by this defiance makes everything I do about him and what he represents with regards to my life story in general.
But yeah, I'm pretty fucking nice, extremely tolerant, very forgiving when it comes to relationships.
When the other shoe drops I can be pretty fucking nasty, though... bordering on BPD at times.
'But yeah, I'm pretty fucking nice, extremely tolerant, very forgiving when it comes to relationships.
When the other shoe drops I can be pretty fucking nasty, though... bordering on BPD at times.
HELL HATH NO FURY!!!'
Well, I'm not one to argue with that. ;) And so what if you make it about him? You can't deny what it was or that it happened. We're created everyday by every piece of our past. The trick is to use it as a building block. I know, I'm full of originality today.~
Notable, why do you call us beepers? What does it mean?
Except I never physically stalked him, chased him down with a car, broke all of his stuff I had in my possession, or sent sex photos of us having sex to another girlfriend.
He totally thought I was going to destroy his guitar, probably because he did the same shit to her stuff. But I don't do that shit. I cleaned it and put new strings on before I gave it back to him.
Sorry to keep going on. Need to do this every once in a while.
Absolutely. That's why the phrase "garbage in/ garbage out is so applical to computers and the 9/11 conspiracy theorists (Many, of genuis level) who present their demented theories.
Surly defence is only one aspect of intelligence-their are other faculties at play, self criticism, inspiration, compromise...maybe due to hyper-vigilance sociopaths are more weighted to the defence side of things.
Elephants are one of a few species of animals on earth that are considered sentient (meaning they can perceive feelings, feel emotion, and are self-aware). Maybe there was some sort of evolutionary "blip" when it comes to socio's as so many on this blog at least claim they can't perceive feelings or emotions. Maybe when it comes to sociopathy it's not a psychological matter at all. Maybe it's a matter of human evolution and we are looking at it from the wrong perspective or field of study?
Smart people believe nothing, and see no need to defend themselves, Whatever pops into their head they just go with it and when people challenge them they see it as an opportunity.
Smart people suffer though because people treat them like they think they know what they're talking about. Smart people are really not any smarter than anyone else.
Am Joyce from Spain i want to testify of the good work done by a faithful Dr Ekpiku, a spell caster. in my life i never thought there is such thing as spiritual intercession. my problem started nine months back when the father of my kids started putting up some strange behavior, i never knew he was having an affair outside our matrimonial home. it dawn on me on that faithful day 19th of April 21st 4:23pm when he came to the house to pick his things that was when i knew that situation has gotten out of hand and he then told me he was quitting the marriage which i have built for over five years, i was confused and dumbfounded i called on family and friends but to no avail. two months after i started having problem with my kids welfare rent-age and all of it, i really went through hell. until a day i was browsing on the internet and i happen to meet a spell caster i never believed on this but i needed my man back so i gave the spell caster my problem at first i never trusted him so i was just doing it but you know a problem shared is half solved after a week my husband called me telling me that he his coming back home and that was all. now we are living happily and i still do contact him on this email: Ekpikuspelltemple@live.com
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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons."
"It wasn't as dark and scary as it sounds. I had a lot of fun...killing somebody's a funny experience."
ReplyDeleteNice, here's one most of us can identify with.
ReplyDelete"People don't know me. They think they do, but they don't."
- Andrew Cunanan
Merry Christmas!
ReplyDelete"He started messing with the christmas tree, telling me how nice the christmas tree was. So I shot him."
- David Bullock
"Even psychopaths have emotions, then again, maybe not."
ReplyDeleteWe do have emotions, just "not like you". We just say and act like we have none when we need to fear monger, I guess.
ReplyDeleteDo you feed off our emotions or experience them thru causing emotions in empath's?
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting view this i know, i don't know what to say. I definitely feel something by inducing emotions to empaths.
ReplyDeleteSays ME: "Smart people believe weird things...
ReplyDeleteBecause they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons..."
Let's analyze this as an economist would.
When making decisions people go after maximizing some utility function. This could be tied to many thing: money, fame, security, safety, instant-gratification, tease, gain favor, who knows.
A smart person is good at choosing the best alternative that maximizes his utility function at the time of decision making. To say that he chose the alternative for a 'non-smart' reason is to say that someone (or the decision maker himself sometime later as he looks back) is analyzing the decision with a different utility function and is criticizing the utility function that was chosen at the point of decision making. (Doing the right thing for wrong reasons... Garbage in garbage out... Fallacies, etc. etc.)
A smart person looking back at a decision made in this fashion will have three choices.
1. Accept that the chosen utility function was erroneous and not to jump to maximizing a utility function that's quickly derived in the future.
2. Punish himself. Regret, feel remorseful, keep reliving the mistake, get into an emotional bind (empaths warned here)
3. Kind of know the mistake but to avoid any shitty self punishment simply summarize the reasons that must have made him choose the utility function he chose and that is what ME calls believing weird shit. Heck, if it's gonna make me feel better and prevent me from doing '2' above, rationalization is not a bad short term solution at all. And, yes, smart people will both knowingly and unknowingly use this tool to prevent excessive self-punishment.
One should take forgiveness of the self any time.
I had a sense that my ex wanted me to make him feel feelings he couldn't feel on his own but he knew they existed. This is when I started to get strange thoughts about him. He said to me about his ex gf (girlfriend before me) she made me feel like no other woman could..”I just want to crawl under her skin where I can breath and live.” That’s weird no? How can someone make a sociopath feel that way…probably because she didn’t put up with his crap and the more she refused to see him the more he wanted her. But that’s just a theory I have.
ReplyDeleteOr, he is just telling you that to get a jealous BPD response
ReplyDeleteWhat did you feel when he said that? Felt jealous?
ReplyDeleteMike, if you don't feel that warm,fuzzy all joyful love, if you see it in another person toward you does that give you a feeling of your own like a rush?
ReplyDeleteWhen your in a freindly conversation are your getting the other person to enjoy what your saying and making them laugh and it goes back and forth between is this a sharing of feelings?
Once my socio ex started sleeping after sex as opposed to making me happy I poured a large bucket of water to his face (not caring about drying the bed afterwards). Boy, I am so happy I did that. I should have a Bucket Day and celebrate every year.
ReplyDeleteGrace, maybe he did just want to cause jealousy. You seem like the type of person that wanted him to feel secure and the harder it seems you work at that the more bored they seem to get.
ReplyDelete@Grace: I've had a woman who could make me feel like none of the others could. I don't know if I would use the same terminology he did, but I can understand the sentiment.
ReplyDeleteIt's like a drug you've never had before, and when it's gone, you have no idea if the next dealer you meet will have it. So far, I haven't found any more of 'the good stuff'. It's not a flaw with the women, I'd imagine. I guess there's just something more I need, that the average partner does not possess.
According to the article below, sociopaths do experience empathy, perhaps even increased empathy. It's just a little different.
ReplyDeleteSociopaths and Empathy
Try it again:
ReplyDeleteSociopaths and Empathy
TNP, do you think it was physical attraction?
ReplyDeleteDid she have a PD?
"Mike, if you don't feel that warm,fuzzy all joyful love, if you see it in another person toward you does that give you a feeling of your own like a rush?
ReplyDeleteWhen your in a freindly conversation are your getting the other person to enjoy what your saying and making them laugh and it goes back and forth between is this a sharing of feelings?"
Dude, don't know about that. I know that if i see i can modify another person's mood or something it's good cause i feel like i hit something. That's all i am saying.
'What did you feel when he said that? Felt jealous?"
ReplyDeleteYes I did. Anyone would no? But yet it seemed sick in some way and I didn't want to behave like a teenager about it, I had to control myself. I told him not to expect that from me and if it's something he felt with me than fine but I cannot manifest those feelings for him artifically..that's not really love.
I had asked him about her, he didn't offer much info on his own. But this women he was with was playing him..she would only see him when she felt like it. She was in control of the relationship. In the end he was using me to get her jealous and it worked for a while. They don't see each other now. So now he's has no one...not her or me.
Hang on... this talk of feeling things because other people feel them... you realise that's empathy, right? Or at least, I thought it was...
ReplyDeleteWe can empathize with others but we can't usually don't have compassion, if you had no ability to empathize whatsoever, you could never manipulate a person, although i admit at the same time, i find it tedious to put myself in the mind of another person.
ReplyDeleteOthers may think it would be cool being a sociopath, but it's really the opposite, imagine not knowing who you truly are, but at the same time not giving a damn either, drifting from one impulse to another, using people up and then dumping them, bored stiff every fucking day.
Hey. I do not know what I am, all I know is that I am able to turn emotions and empathy (or... sympathy) off, and apparently, I've found: ON. I am going to tell you something useful: I turned it on for 6 months and played it at full blast, fell in love (love. with someone who was possibly a S or NPD or something) and yes, at first I liked it, it was very new and excitingBut when things turned sour, the pain was unfathomable. I turned it off to save myself and for a week I floated in the deep of nothingness, it was like getting home to a warm bed and a fireplace after trekking for months in a mountain without a tent... or something. I'm waiting for boredom to come back, and can't wait. Bless the boredom , bless the void, bless the nothingness. Amen. Never try it, people, unless you know you can turn it back off despite deep sympathy for the other person and a fear of hurting them if you do. It's quite dangerous.
DeleteIs it natural for a sociopath to be completely unsentimental?
ReplyDeleteMost if not all sociopaths are unsentimental at their core, as stated in a previous post, we don't have the "blue print" of accepted behaviors and beliefs that normal folks have.The psychopaths motto is "What's one less person on the planet?"
ReplyDeleteThe reason why a psychopath can come off as irrational, is because we rarely internalize criticism, in that i mean we don't break it down and analyze the sleight, we take it personally.
You can joke around with a psychopath on a superficial level, but once you underestimate or try to control them you are in trouble.
"Hang on... this talk of feeling things because other people feel them... you realise that's empathy, right? Or at least, I thought it was..."
ReplyDeleteSure that's true. But some people are "empty" without the presence of another person and cannot feel good about the world unless they can live through another. Nothing wrong with needing people..we all do but for what reasons? That's the difference.
"You can joke around with a psychopath on a superficial level, but once you underestimate or try to control them you are in trouble."
I agree.
above from Grace. My son has taken over my computer. There's a blizzard going on here today..both of us are bored!!
ReplyDeletei just usually feel numb when asked to sympathize with someone (on anything other than a purely intellectual basis) and usually end up saying something lame--real sympathy or compassion is just not there. empathy is a different story. i guess it is impossible to manipulate someone without it.
ReplyDeletei think in some ways, empathy is overrated.
Relevant, no?
ReplyDeletei love david byrne. he's such a friendly cyborg. :)
ReplyDeletewhat about those strange sudden bursts of rage in terms of protecting others? i know a lot of socios have them, and it doesn't seem to fit with anything else. i have them and am always mystified afterwards. it doesn't come from sympathy, but from something else--i'm not sure what that is.
What does a child do when someone tries to break his toys?
ReplyDeleteI might be wrong but wouldn't understanding equal compassion at times?
ReplyDeleteIf you were in front of a judge and you swerved not to hit one thing but hit another, wouldn't you want him to understand?
Don't you ever go easy on someone, that would be a form of compassion.
@ postmodern. lol. got it.
ReplyDelete^ Zed said...
ReplyDeleteI hate it that you guys see the world this way. The fact that someone uses someone and then dumps them is not sociopathy, none of the alleged facts that prove someone is a sociopath is sociopathy. All of that could be done by a normal guy any time of the week. If you look around by those standards then you might be tempted to say that 50% percent of the people you see around you are sociopaths.
ReplyDeleteThere are interests at stake. A normal guy sometimes doesn't care about what happens after just as long as he gets his need done. Take a junkie for example. Some of them suck dick for a dose. Why wouldn't someone else do something that is not as bad, like stepping over their conscience.
this is the way i see it: the junkie is helpless. he doesn't have a choice. his need for the drug is making his decisions for him (or her.)
ReplyDeleteif someone steps over his conscience, he has a set of ethical standards but is choosing to ignore them--he has a choice.
supposedly sociopathy is the condition of having no conscience, no instinctive sense of morality or ethics. there still may be choice involved, however. someone who is sociopathic might struggle to make a conscious effort to behave in pro-social ways, even though the instincts to do so aren't there.
so.. in theory anyway, someone can be a sociopath but behave in less damaging ways than someone who isn't. it just takes more effort, learning, and going against basic instincts than someone who has an innate sense of what's harmful or not.
My x-socio boyfriend used to ask me to tell him stories about other people's lives and motives. It was really sad as I could see he wished he was inside the warm room instead of looking through the window... Like the Little Match Girl. Without this stimulation he was an inert corpse..is that how it feels when your not making someone else to feel. What's it feel like if nothing comes your way..depression? describe it for me please..
ReplyDelete@Mike: Some good points. From my point of view, the difference is basically the ability to side-step the conscience for what you need, versus not having one at all, and only having a superficial conscience to use when necessary. Being conscientious without conscience, if you will.
ReplyDelete@whoever asked: She was a severe Borderline.
I think taking criticism is more a matter of maturity than on a pathological issue. You might initially take it personally, but you should have the capacity to stop yourself for a second and really think about it before lashing out. If anything, it takes some practice.
@ petra
ReplyDeletethe little match girl
Zed, sociopaths don't care about anyone but themselves, so i don't know where you got the idea that we lash out in rage to protect others.
ReplyDeleteMy friend got robbed at knife point in front of me, because he was the only one who had a wallet on him, i laughed my ass off at him.
i don't know, hon. i guess everyone is different. :)
ReplyDeleteI know what you're talking about Zed. I saw this but it was aimed at women only. But like Post mentioned about the toy...once a new toy comes along, we are no longer that important.
ReplyDelete@ grace: yes, i agree--i don't have the sense that i'm doing it for altruistic reasons; i just wasn't sure why i was doing it. i think as long as i feel that someone is an extension of me, i will have protective rages--gender doesn't seem to matter (but then, i'm female and, by labels, bi-sexual, so i suppose that kind of possessiveness can extend to people of either gender.)
ReplyDeleteand sometimes i have an odd sense of "family" with this person or that, this group or that--even if briefly--and i will go into a rage if i feel that any of them are being attacked. it usually isn't rational, and i often end up making things worse.
it also doesn't mean that my own behavior towards them (the people i'm identifying with) is generally above reproach. :)
I don't use the terminology toy, per se, but I can understand the connect. Sometimes, I don't care if someone I'm close to is hurt. Sometimes, I'll go into a fit of rage. It's not even person to person exclusive. It either happens or it doesn't. There are some people where it is more prone to happen, though.
ReplyDeleteI guess, they don't even have to be terribly close. Just someone I consider to be of value.
I haven't lived anywhere for more than four years, so making a "close" bond for me doesn't take much time. I just assess if someone's worth it or not.
Does anyone have something similar to this?
@ notable: i don't know if it's redundant to say yes, i do, but yes--i do. and i can't always predict when it will happen or not either, or when a similar sleight will only end in apathy. it isn't very consistent.
ReplyDeletei'm not sure either if it's even an outcome of feeling close to someone--it could be someone i don't really know. maybe that is an outcome of considering that person of value for some reason or another.
I think I might have an idea of what it might be. Just a theory, though. When someone violates someone I value, not something simple or impulsive, per se? Premeditated harm, or a sick type of harm, happening to them, you know? Not some dummy getting his nosed bloodied in a bar fight or suffering something from being dumb.
ReplyDeleteIt's not some hero crap, or anything, I don't think. Perhaps it's a shallow form of empathy, the rage that comes with being powerless, if you will? I'm not sure.
I don't really have that many friends anymore Notable, I'm not saying I'm a loner by any means but it's just one of those times when the mask is completely off and everyone can see you for what you are, a paranoid hateful person.
ReplyDeleteIf i wanted some ego stroking, id usually go to a club and pick out a sucker to befriend, get their number etc. Then id usually start telling them that I know some of the biggest criminals around, to put some fear in them, after that you pretty much have a willing victim.
@ notable: i'm not sure. sometimes i can go off about something that isn't premeditated, it just strikes the wrong chord for some reason or another. but i can see where something like that might be a specific trigger for someone.
ReplyDelete"the rage that comes with being powerless:" that sits with me. i can't really define it more than that--it's just an intuitive sense that yes, that's what i feel.
i think i see the other's person's powerlessness in the face of something, and since i identify with that person or see him/her as an extension of me--i feel that i can't allow that loss of power to happen. it's a reflection of my own loss of power.
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ReplyDeleteRelax Zed, we all can't be 100% bad, stop trying to justify the good deeds you make.
ReplyDeletemy ex told me that if anyone ever hurt me or my son he would kill them. This statement came out of the blue. I was like what? A few minutes later I was flattered by it and he made me feel safe..from what I don't know cause the only one that hurt me was him. Creep.
ReplyDeleteTNP "the rage that comes with being powerless, if you will? I'm not sure."
I'm not sure either but that sounds pretty good to me.
You need to know Grace, that there are a million reasons he could have said that, as stated sociopaths and narcissists do not see you as a person with your own goals and dreams if he is truly a narc, he will cut you off from your family, break any self esteem you have and project everything at you "You grew up in a dysfunctional family" "Your such a narcissistic bitch" they believe they are all good and the world is bad and full of sinners.
ReplyDelete@ grace. lol. i don't doubt it. sometimes i think the only consistent thing about me is my complete lack of consistency.
ReplyDeletei think a relationship with a socio has to be a little bit of a slam dance. it may be why socio's and bpd's go together so well--as vulnerable as they can be, bpd's can also go head to head with us when they want to.
another socio? i don't know. i've tried that, and it didn't end well. he was physically violent. i can deal with almost anything else, but that didn't sit well. he was gone pretty quickly.
I honestly don't know how you all can say a bpd and a socio make a good relationship, if i were in a relationship with a bpd I'd torture them lol I would be like a fat kid in a chocolate factory.
ReplyDeleteThey can be surprisingly detached and masochistic at times... Hurting someone isn't as fun when they like it.
ReplyDeleteWhat mine did for me, well, she kept things interesting. It was very hard to be bored. It was sort of like having multiple partners. Never knew which one she was going to be from one hour to the next.
I HATE YOU ALL AND I'M LEAVING!!
ReplyDelete;)
There's some strange noise coming from the pipes...really really strange...
@ anon 6:09: just try that, and see what you get. (have you ever heard of "bunny boiling?" look it up.)
ReplyDeletethe fact that bpd's tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves has two sides: they can be stunningly blunt. it's hard to get away with as much.
They say that a bpd gets excited easy due to and a socio is the opposite, having had experienced it would you agree Notable?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean the "due to" part. :P
ReplyDeleteAnon, I told a guy that if we were ever an item I'd have killed him in two weeks. He was a narcissist. I wasn't joking. One of my lines is, 'I'm being serious.'
ReplyDeleteAnd I truly felt like hiring a hitman to deal with him - we weren't EVEN together!
does that make me crazy? ;)
I always knew you were nutty so it doesn't change a thing.
ReplyDeletelol, thanks Anon - sheesh is it THAT obvious!?
ReplyDeleteAnd Note, stop deleting your posts it riles me up! the rest of us only get one go at it. ;)
They can be exciting... easily excited? Dunno. Easily sent on edge? Definitely. Take things extremely personal, but sometimes I wonder if it's fake. How often? It's hard to say.
ReplyDeleteI try to be conscientious, and sometimes dealing with her emotions was like skipping naked in a minefield after drinking a few too many...
It was worth it though. Whatever she did for me... it was definitely worth it.
Ha! i looked up bunny boiling, wasn't too sure what it meant and guess what? It describes notme and her obsession with Notable to a tee!
ReplyDeleteNotable, get out while you can brother!
How are they for empathy? As gutless as a socio?
ReplyDeleteeasily excited? with me, yes, most definately. some would say hyper.
ReplyDeleteHistrionics are very changeable too - one second up, the next, down, the next, raging etc. Like a box of chocolates...
lol, i don't have an obsession with Notable.
And I've never boiled a bunny.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHow are they for empathy? As gutless as a socio?
lol
Spineless i meant.
ReplyDeleteempathy - yes, but we're all different. I have very strong empathy.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to give myself some credit here by pointing out something interesting. Since we wear our hearts on our sleeve we get the 'truth' out of people more quickly than others, I would say. I don't waste my time in relationships or with people I know don't appreciate me. Does that make sense?
It's like fast-tracking your way through social dynamics. Slow-burning just doesn't appeal or work in my case. It's alien.
And yes, i'm blunt. It's childish. hmm
It's at it's height when I'm dealing with another PD person.
With the sane, (and yes, I really mean sane), they enable me to be normal and blend in. My current bf is very sane and he thinks I'm an angel. I can't argue with him there. ;)
Anon, spineless? lol.
Sounds like everyone hitting the nog tonight :-)
ReplyDeletetruth is, for all my bark, i wouldn't hurt a fly.
ReplyDeleteIf i meant to kill that guy i wouldn't have said it. It doesn't mean I didn't feel like doing it cos I did. And I knew for sure (for all my empathy) I wouldn't have cried a single tear over him or regretted it. (perhaps I would have regretted the jail sentence lol).
But no, i'll always walk away rather than do something like that. I'd have loved to kick the crap out of him though, but i know it's a kind of rage that doesn't amount to anything.
I can cut someone down to size with my words though. It's a dodgy line to walk.
TNP,
ReplyDeleteI thought he was smart, he is smart and I thought the only way to keep things interesting was to do interesting things...not just sex. I took him to see a Picasso and we went horse back riding...I showed him constellations in the sky and explained how photons from star light are millions of years old..stuff like that.lol(drama) I thought that's what I had to do to keep it interesting...not play head games. I suck at that. I made up a book of questions for us to talk about while we were on long rides to his parents and he loved it. I wasn't boring! And what did he do for me...he showed me how to shoot a gun! Is this not craziness or what?..lol. wtf. My point is that I'm missing something. Something I can't put my finger on and I know no one can answer this for me but that's where I'm stuck. It's hard to believe that all that good stuff didn't matter to him...when he made it seem like it did at the time. And on top of that I'm pretty too!! CHRIST!
anon 6:37: by "bunny boiling," i didn't mean general obsessiveness. i meant an ability to switch off from any emotions a beeper may have had for you and to seek revenge if harm is done. (i just googled the definition again, and was reminded of the perceived obsessiveness part.)
ReplyDeleteagain: you really can't get away with much.
okay. i'm really calling it a night this time. :)
You tried, and I'm sure he noticed. You sound like a good gal, Grace. Sounds like you did a damn good job keeping it interesting.
ReplyDeleteI actually don't like head games being played on me from a partner. When I'm with them, I want to feel like we're beyond it, as a couple, if you will? I still like to play them against her to a very minor extent sometimes, I admit. It's very selfish, but it's not about hurting her, it's about having a go for a laugh, and it usually isn't much at all traumatizing.
I've crossed this line before, though. Part of me really enjoyed the agony and distress, but it broke her. It broke her, and she didn't look at me the same way again. I realized then that I shouldn't play games like that with people I want as a lover. Anyone else, I couldn't care less, but someone I've decided to form a physical relationship is off limits, one of my rules I made later in life. Even though I might not be able to fully trust them, I want them to trust me.
Maybe through some introspection I can figure out what might be missing or different. If I can figure it out, or come to a decent hypothesis, I'll give you a holler.
My point is that I'm missing something. Something I can't put my finger on and I know no one can answer this for me but that's where I'm stuck.
ReplyDeleteGrace, does your ex remind you of anyone from your childhood?
thanks. yes..i told him i have no respect for him anymore. he wasn't ok with that one.
ReplyDeletenight peeps.
Grace, I presume it was just too comfortable for him. who knows.
ReplyDeletepeople are crazy. have any female non-sociopaths here ever really wanted to kill someone, say an ex or otherwise? Is it really just me?
(not to say you would have, but just really loved the thought of it).
ok, socios are welcome to answer too. I'd just like to know i'm not the only one. :)
Why call them a beeper?
ReplyDeleteSometimes my mother Nikita. She has bpd, we think. But he's a sociopath for sure.
ReplyDeleteNotme, I never wanted to kill him but suffer yes..for sure. Not physical pain though. Life pain. But I understand why you would think like that.
I don't think notable would have the courage to murder someone, he's too sentimental.
ReplyDeletei dunno. Note introduced me to that term so he should explain.
ReplyDeletecos we beep?
i think a better term would be fire related.
i like beeper, sounds more tame than the reality, whatever it means.
anyone here tried blowing their nose with a leaf? don't.
Anon, please give us a name. I like you so I want to know... :)
no i meant females. i know what these guys are like here so the question wasn't to them.
ReplyDeleteI wish my ex was dead. Or never existed in the first place. Still haunts me every minute of every day.
ReplyDeleteI don't want to kill him, I just wish he was dead.
It's not even that he did anything that bad, or that we were even close in any honest way, he was just the straw that broke this camel's back.
ReplyDeleteDon't sweat it Medusa. People can suck.
ReplyDeleteTrying my darndest, but it's a Sisyphusian endeavor. One gets tired after a while. Very tired.
ReplyDeletelife's a bitch then you die. (i'm so unoriginal it hurts.)
ReplyDeletei take it you like mythology? i did some greek mythology at school. can't say i remember a great deal of it though.
I remember a lot of the plays though, the tragedies, epic as ever, the comedies usually always shit though. The Iliad - brilliant.
"Sisyphean"
ReplyDeleteSorry, I just haven't done that in forever. :D
Yeah yeah yeah. Don't mess with me today, love. I'll cut you
ReplyDeletelol post
ReplyDeletei couldn't tell. had to look it up.
This is so weird but Philoctetes was one of my favorite plays i had to read and it was about a warrior left alone on an island during the trojan war.
I now see the connection which is that my favorite movies are about incarceration and isolation. I love prison and castaway movies. weird.
3 years ago today I met him. He came to the door. He said he was 36, what a lie. He looked like a 50 year old greasy rat and I thought he was gross.
ReplyDeletei like when Medusa shows some attitude. :)
ReplyDeleteso how did he woo you if you thought he was gross? I'm curious.
ReplyDeleteHe took his hat off and had long black black hair, a bit of a fetish of mine. We sat down in the restaurant and he looked at me with those intense blue eyes.
ReplyDeleteHe turned into some version of Nick Cave in my head.
He said I made him laugh, a rare thing for him.
That's what happened.
did you ever end up on lovefraud? just wondering.
ReplyDeleteseems like an expected destination or something.
how soon did you suspect he was a socio or was it after?
Anytime, Medusa. Nothing wrong with a little friendly knifeplay, as I always say. ;)
ReplyDeletewhy do i put spaces in my text all the time? it's worse than a wall of text. It's makes me cross-eyed and doesn't even look pretty
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI read some lovefraud stuff at first, yes. Never participated. Didn't take long for me to get annoyed and I desired to delve deeper than to just find a place to lay blame.
ReplyDeleteFirst time I caught him in a lie was two weeks in, although later I found out there were many more lies he concocted before then. He then told a lie to cover that lie.
Some lie about not having a myspace account. Why lie about something so stupid and easy to figure out.
I knew then that I needed to throw him to the curb. I don't know why I didn't. I liked him enough, I guess.
I told him he was a sociopath a couple of years ago because he was trying to make me feel bad and blame me for being pissed off that he was a lying shady asshole, and because I told him that apology-by-text was not good enough for me. All I requested was that he looked me in the eye (he later said it took him two years to figure out that that was what I needed, even though I was pretty clear about it in the first place). That was before I even knew much about sociopathy beyond common knowledge.
It's clear he did some sociopathy research some time after that, because a couple years later he basically listed off the DSM ASPD attributes to explain to me why he was having a hard time having a relationship, but then followed that by saying, "I have sooo much empathy and I'm soo sensitive."
He's also the master of the pity play when caught doing something bad. "My father told me I was stupid, my ex was a Malignant Narcissist, and look at my bullet wounds! Look at me I'm a survivor because I was a junkie who slept on gravestones. Look, I have absolutely no veins left in my arms."
How can you be a survivor when what you 'survived' you did to yourself?
Ugh.
(word verification: 'lyings')
Grace-
ReplyDeleteI totally relate. I was very tolerant of his oddities, I would have dealt with more than most people would have with him. I *know* that we had an insane amount of fun together. After he dumped me (for me being "too comfortable"-- a trait he loved when we were anywhere except in his home together, where he had asked me to live...) he said he would never be able to think of the time we spent together without smiling, that it had been amazing.
Which, of course is how I ended up getting so comfortable, he described it thus--"You are the kind of person who in always comfortable in your surroundings, everywhere you go and with any kind of person you are around. I'm never that comfortable; I'm always on point....to the point that I'm almost on edge." And that was how he explained that we could not date.
However, early on in the relationship I asked him why he went from us just hanging out as friends to knowing he was interested in me and he described when we went out together last new year's eve in vivid detail; he had taken me to his best friend's parents' house. I didn't know the friend or anyone at the parents' party; they were all my parents' age. But I waltzed in and immediately got to know half the guests; the mom had a similar tattoo as one of mine by the same artist, a woman had a daughter living in the same city I was living in at the time going to school there and we discussed the city, I did a shot with 4 others, and talked to a real estate agent and promised that when I was ready to start a business in my hometown and move back that I'd use her to find what I want. He said he was impressed by the ease with which I "work a room" and I protested saying it wasn't my intent to make a splash or impress people or "work" the room. He said that he knew that and that my natural skill at it and lack of guile was what impressed him. Of course I was tickled that he was so observant of me and so astute in figuring me out.
It just really sticks in my craw that he had the nerve to tell me that he loved me because of abc and also that he didn't wish to date me for the exact same reason. I sort of expected better of him than that.
Well that whole story makes me look like an idiot.
ReplyDeleteAnd I was.
'How can you be a survivor when what you 'survived' you did to yourself?'
ReplyDelete(interesting. my mother once said that to me. I didn't take kindly to it.)
I wonder if they feel self-pity. Is the pity play really all for show?
You're not an idiot Medusa. Don't be silly. The fact you caught him out and you didn't hang around for years on end is a good thing.
Your general intelligence proves that these things can happen to anyone.
and that w verification is uncanny.
ReplyDeleteI am positive that he does feel a huge amount of honest self-pity. But I also think he was very aware of what he was doing when he used it to his advantage. I'm sure he has a long history of being successful at doing it, being a one-time long-time junkie and all.
ReplyDeleteAs far as being an idiot: while I'm not unintelligent, socially/emotionally I am.
I'm very much a reclusive loner (with short stints of social activity and social brilliance) and have very little relationship experience (which is my own personal red flag, I'm sure).
I forgive myself somewhat for my naivety due to this fact.
But I also know I buried the red flags deep within my psyche because I wanted to believe what I wanted to believe, despite the stop signs.
ReplyDeleteMy internal dissonance ended up making me very very very sick, to the point that he commented on how thin (near anorexic looking) I was, to the point where I was very close to committing myself after it was all over. I experienced a paranoia previously unknown to me.
Still dealing with the physical effects of the whole thing. I have a condition now that hasn't gone away since shortly after I met him.
I dated a supposedly recovering junkie several years ago who choked me one time because I wouldn't give him back his heroin, which he handed me just to show it to me. That experience sounds traumatic, but it had nowhere hear the effect that this last dude had.
ReplyDeleteHe later said he thinks he wanted to save him by taking me on the junk run and handing me the heroin. He has stayed clean since that incident, and we are still friends.
I have a history of drug people wanting me to save them. I had one dude take me on a crack run for the same reason.
I'm not Jesus, for fuck's sake. What is it about me?
inexperience is forgiveable. hell, always forgive yourself. Who else is gonna do it?
ReplyDeleteIt's hard enough if it's your first love, but when it turns out he's a socio it's like the first time all over again anyway.
Every relationship is gonna be different. It's a good learning curve since you've experienced an extreme. But don't let it keep you down.
And your health can't be sacrificed. You need it to go get at the world with newfound defiance.
What is it about you? hmm...you're a nice, enabling opportunity?
I've got a fair amount of defiance for sure, and that's kept me going, and is a huge source of motivation. Sometimes it wears me out, though, sometimes it feels like living by this defiance makes everything I do about him and what he represents with regards to my life story in general.
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, I'm pretty fucking nice, extremely tolerant, very forgiving when it comes to relationships.
When the other shoe drops I can be pretty fucking nasty, though... bordering on BPD at times.
HELL HATH NO FURY!!!
They see your halo, Medusa.
ReplyDelete'But yeah, I'm pretty fucking nice, extremely tolerant, very forgiving when it comes to relationships.
ReplyDeleteWhen the other shoe drops I can be pretty fucking nasty, though... bordering on BPD at times.
HELL HATH NO FURY!!!'
Well, I'm not one to argue with that. ;)
And so what if you make it about him? You can't deny what it was or that it happened. We're created everyday by every piece of our past. The trick is to use it as a building block. I know, I'm full of originality today.~
Notable, why do you call us beepers? What does it mean?
Yeah, well, get your own damn halo, motherfuckers. I need it for myself.
ReplyDeleteFunny, in our very last conversation he told me that I see everything in "black and white".
ReplyDeleteTo which I responded, "I have Borderline Personality Disorder!" as a joke.
Isn't "Beeper" just out of the B and P from Borderline Personality?
ReplyDeleteoh! right. how dense of me
ReplyDeleteSomeone else said that was their nickname, and I've seen it in a Google search at a few other sites.
ReplyDeleteAnd it reminds me of the 90s. Good times.
Oh, and Cronos wasn't a very good movie.
lolsies i feel like such a twerp.
ReplyDeleteAlso funny, was that he was the same way with his supposedly narc/socio ex, according to her experiences with him.
ReplyDeleteTotally borderline black/white behavior.
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ReplyDeletethe black and white thing is sooo weird. Since i can justify feeling that way when i do.
ReplyDeleteI just don't see it like others do.
duh! course not.
Except I never physically stalked him, chased him down with a car, broke all of his stuff I had in my possession, or sent sex photos of us having sex to another girlfriend.
ReplyDeleteHe totally thought I was going to destroy his guitar, probably because he did the same shit to her stuff. But I don't do that shit. I cleaned it and put new strings on before I gave it back to him.
Sorry to keep going on. Need to do this every once in a while.
no probs. let it all hang out. just don't expect me to be useful.
ReplyDeleteApparently I'm not great at advice.
No no, you've said good stuff which I take to heart. Stuff I tell myself over and over. Sometimes I need someone else to say it instead.
ReplyDeleteI actually feel little better. Whatever blame/faults I have, I see by writing all this that he has the same faults only 100 times worse.
In other news.... Californication is back on the air!
ReplyDeleteglad you feel better. :)
ReplyDeletei love Californication.
ReplyDeleteI didn't bother even finishing the first episode. I'm sure it's absolutely charming.
ReplyDeleteIt's terrible. He's an asshole and every single female character is pathetic. But I like it anyway, and reminds me why I no longer live in Hollywood.
ReplyDeleteAll those strong willed, self-confident women wouldn't make rinse and repeatable love interests on television though, Medusa ;)
ReplyDeleteEvery single male character is pathetic, too. So I guess it's even.
ReplyDeleteWow, this show is so bad it had me throwing up in my mouth the whole time for so many reasons.
ReplyDeleteI must've changed a lot since last season.
Acid reflux?
ReplyDeleteWV: genetle
Absolutely. That's why the phrase "garbage in/ garbage out is
ReplyDeleteso applical to computers and the 9/11 conspiracy theorists
(Many, of genuis level) who present their demented theories.
When we try to use logic to justify emotional responses after the fact this disconnect happens often.
ReplyDeleteSurly defence is only one aspect of intelligence-their are other faculties at play, self criticism, inspiration, compromise...maybe due to hyper-vigilance sociopaths are more weighted to the defence side of things.
ReplyDeleteElephants are one of a few species of animals on earth that are considered sentient (meaning they can perceive feelings, feel emotion, and are self-aware). Maybe there was some sort of evolutionary "blip" when it comes to socio's as so many on this blog at least claim they can't perceive feelings or emotions. Maybe when it comes to sociopathy it's not a psychological matter at all. Maybe it's a matter of human evolution and we are looking at it from the wrong perspective or field of study?
ReplyDeleteMelissaR
The evolutionary perspective you have noted is one of the popular theories behind why sociopaths exist.
DeleteSmart people believe nothing, and see no need to defend themselves, Whatever pops into their head they just go with it and when people challenge them they see it as an opportunity.
ReplyDeleteSmart people suffer though because people treat them like they think they know what they're talking about. Smart people are really not any smarter than anyone else.
ReplyDeleteThe intellect is problematic.
ReplyDeleteThe difference between cats and dogs
ReplyDeleteAm Joyce from Spain i want to testify of the good work done by a faithful Dr Ekpiku, a spell caster. in my life i never thought there is such thing as spiritual intercession. my problem started nine months back when the father of my kids started putting up some strange behavior, i never knew he was having an affair outside our matrimonial home. it dawn on me on that faithful day 19th of April 21st 4:23pm when he came to the house to pick his things that was when i knew that situation has gotten out of hand and he then told me he was quitting the marriage which i have built for over five years, i was confused and dumbfounded i called on family and friends but to no avail. two months after i started having problem with my kids welfare rent-age and all of it, i really went through hell. until a day i was browsing on the internet and i happen to meet a spell caster i never believed on this but i needed my man back so i gave the spell caster my problem at first i never trusted him so i was just doing it but you know a problem shared is half solved after a week my husband called me telling me that he his coming back home and that was all. now we are living happily and i still do contact him on this email: Ekpikuspelltemple@live.com
ReplyDelete