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Wednesday, April 30, 2014

Sociopaths: net gain or loss?

From a reader:

This is about a one minute clip of David Mitchell, british comedian, talking about atheism and religion in general. I don't know why, but it made me instantly think of your blog and book, and the way you talked about including mormon faith as a guidance in your life. I have had similar thoughts of catholicism and religion in general for quite a long time, and I think Mitchell brings up excellent point, where beliefs are not really there to be right or wrong, but to provide comfort in life. For me, one of the few emotions I experience is void feeling, grasping me from my stomach up my throat, when i think of death. When my consciousness ceases to exist, I am going to be no more. Unimaginable, yet so tempting to think about. I really would like there to be something after we die!


I related with his suggestion that people often mistakenly identify cause and effect relationships. Are religious people war mongering killers? Or do war mongering killers just find a helpful vehicle in religion. And if the former, if we took out religion, would there be fewer wars and deaths? Would something replace it? Is there some offsetting advantage to religion? Perhaps certain aspects of religion increase the likelihood for violence and hatred and other aspects decrease it so that there it's a wash? (Also it's funny that we as a society used to think that it was the godless atheists that were the cause of all the world's horrors, so it's still a little funny to see the opposite argument getting made all of the time).

The religion angle is interesting to me personally, but more interesting for purposes of this blog is the tendency for people to reduce complicated correlations into simple cause and effect relationships where they believe that if they only removed the cause, the effect would stop happening. For instance, if a sociopath wreaks a little bit of havoc and we remove sociopaths, there would be less havoc and the world would overall be better. But will something else take their place? At least in certain circumstances?

Imagine the example of someone who chronically speeds while driving. He gets pulled over by a police officer who cites him for speeding. In some ways the police officer could be seen as the cause of the ticket, but if that particular cop didn't pull him over, does that mean he would never have gotten a speeding ticket that day? Or worse, have gotten in a serious accident? The existence of police officers might seem terrible for speeders, but are speeders actually better off without a particular police officer? Or police officers in general?

The other argument is that even if sociopaths do bad things, could it be possible that they also do good things? Enough good things to make them overall beneficial to society? Isn't that true of most of us? We sometimes cheat on a spouse or don't pay our taxes or lie to our boss or fudge a CV or steal cable or exaggerate a claim for reimbursement, but we also volunteer for our church or coach our son's football team or plan parties for our co-workers' birthdays or mentor young sociopaths? :)

I'm just saying, I've met some people who have asserted that sociopaths cause billions of dollars of damage a year, and part of my does not doubt it, but the other part of me wonders if it's possible that their risk-taking in business and go-getting mentality doesn't earn even more for the people that back them.

I know I've said this before, but from a recent comment, if you dare take a sociopath's word for it:

I absolutely think sociopaths can be morally good people. In fact I would argue that sociopaths have the potential to be more effective citizens of society. Because I am not clouded by emotions as more empathetic people are, I make decisions based on logic, reason, and common sense. I'm charitable, kind, and compassionate because I know that will improve society.

35 comments:

  1. If self-serving is good then hollow folks can be good. Scorpios (zodiac) can do good & still be sociopathic.

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  2. I think you are underestimating the amount of bad, that you actually do, M.E. :)

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    1. ...or good. Just because some of the time a few catholic priests are pedophiles, doesn't mean all catholic priests - and catholicism - do bad. This is an example of the oversimplification she mentioned. Not all sociopaths are low-functioning murderers.

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    2. A few???? What diocese are you a member of. And have you watched the show the Borgias.

      There is a difference between a priest who is a pedophile in his life vs. a priest who is never a pedophile.

      Do you think your 10 good acts, outweigh your 90 bad?? I don't.

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    3. MR 18yr old socio
      I LOVE THE BORGIAS :) but i agree with your 10-90 idea. Specially with sociopaths, its 'all or nothing', & in case of the 10-90 or even 50-50 would mean that we're only lying to ourselves. Trust me.

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  3. Old man Sai Loses His Horse

    A farmer had only one horse. One day, his horse ran away.

    His neighbors said, “I’m so sorry. This is such bad news. You must be so upset.”

    The man just said, “We’ll see.”

    A few days later, his horse came back with twenty wild horses following. The man and his son corralled all 21 horses.

    His neighbors said, “Congratulations! This is such good news. You must be so happy!”

    The man just said, “We’ll see.”

    One of the wild horses kicked the man’s only son, breaking both his legs.

    His neighbors said, “I’m so sorry. This is such bad news. You must be so upset.”

    The man just said, “We’ll see.”

    The country went to war, and every able-bodied young man was drafted to fight. The war was terrible and killed every young man, but the farmer’s son was spared, since his broken legs prevented him from being drafted.

    His neighbors said, “Congratulations! This is such good news. You must be so happy!”

    The man just said, “We’ll see.”

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  4. Life is an unstable blending of opposites. "Good" and "evil.'
    When events conform our accquired viewpoints of ourselves
    we label them as "good." "Halaluha, WE won the game!"
    When events detract from our egos, we call the outcome "evil."
    "THEY" bungled the game.
    Belief in an afterlife can also be a double edged sowrd.
    "My son, Heaven awaits! Be a hero to your people! You can be
    a Sadeed Warior! The gates of paradise will be open to you.
    Your family will be well provided for. You will have 72 brown-eyed
    virgins to attend to your every need! You will drink from rivers of
    wine. All you need do is strap on this vest, and blow up that
    buliding of infidel invaders." Or....
    "I ain't got but one life to live. That teachers waving her fanny at
    me everyday. I'm gonna get MINE! And I've got the perfect plan
    to do it! You want in?"

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  5. Of course there are some wild extreme variations in the gene pools that cause bad consequences but in the end having these traits present in the whole group is a good thing. Maybe people should see the sociopaths as a CONSEQUENCE not a cause. Their main usefulness is blatant I think, they are the prime example everyone waves out in disgust of their own flawed traits of antisociality. We are perfect scapegoats because we are the worst ones.

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  6. The idea that if you remove the "cause" and everything gets better is a very modern liberal concept from people who think of history as a linear progression from primitivism to modernism (and which will eventually end with the End of History, when all of humanity is united and peaceful), when infact history is cyclical and the only thing that changes is technologies and environments, humans don't change. Its taken billions of years for humans to come into existence, a few hundred or thousand years ain't gonna change humanity at its core.

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    1. That is both an oversimplification and overgeneralization. You are comparing human civilization and events (at a macro level) with sociopathy (at a micro level). This is a rational fallacy. Sociopathy is not humanity, in either good or bad cases. Humanity is a macrocosm of individually conscious and sentient people, not the other way around.

      Simplification is about convenience of thought in an inconveniently complex world. The same thing applies to objectifying and categorizing people. It too is a fallacy, which you must be mindful of when analysing billions.

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    2. I doubt that the changes of evolution can`t be perceived in a few generations. That we evolved from a long time ago doesnt necessarily mean changes can`t be sudden or catastrophic. Nature can be an harmonious cycle, but it can also be a catastrophic event, shifting suddenly into another state we can`t predict. These 2 possibilities and its accompanying mechanism have been shown in the law of entropy.

      You`re deluded in thinking about cycles in history too, but I like the point you make: we are not necessarily better than what`s before.

      People of before were adapted to their days and died leaving a progeny that had to test their own mettle according to their own times. We can only speculate at who`s gonna be tomorrow`s survivors and what`s gonna be their moral.

      And there are also people that can muster their emotions as a beneful component of their personality. Typical sociopath thinking here that its the normal people that is crazy. I for my part don`t want to abase myself to that deluded state even though I don`t give a shit about others.

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  7. "A little bit of havoc?" Who do you think your kidding? Personal responsibility=Personal responsibility.

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  8. Our society dwells on the bad sides of sociopathy: sociopaths wreak lives, break hearts and lie pretty much out of habit without a care in the world.

    But more crucially, sociopaths know how to endear themselves and earn the trust of normal people. If they were not likeable, they would not be able to leave a trail of destruction. People would not really care about them lying.

    It is because they are so endearing (before the mask falls off) that the empaths find it so difficult when they realize the feeling is not, was never reciprocated. They feel hurt, used and abused, stupid, ridiculed. And to make matters worse, they can see that people around them are still enthralled by the sociopath. They feel jealous of the relationship (as hollow or superficial as it is) that the sociopath is able to maintain with other people, after they themselves have been 'discarded'. This can certainly bring suicidal thoughts.

    So it is easy to forget all the good sides that made it so easy for the empaths to like the sociopath in the first place. If the mask was off to start with, the feeling of deception that accompanies the revelation that the sociopath never followed the basic social contract (I like you as much as you like me) could potentially be avoided. Then perhaps empaths could find it in their heart to not despise the sociopath and appreciate him for who he truly is: the best personalized stand up actor they will ever meet. I have heard descriptions ranging from human hand grenade to private poet.

    Enjoy the sociopath in your life as you would enjoy a movie, a song, a video game, a poem or any other form of art.  They provide a departure, transient in most cases, from real/regular life.

    OldAndWise

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    1. "Enjoy the sociopath in your life as you would enjoy a movie, a song, a video game, a poem or any other form of art. They provide a departure, transient in most cases, from real/regular life."

      So true, my conclusion exactly.

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  9. MR 18yr old socio

    @Anon 12:40


    It wasn't until I came across this blog that I noticed the antagonism between empaths and sociopaths, & i can't seem to grasp the point of it.
    I understand empaths are emotionally developed while sociopaths are rationally developed. This, however, wouldn't make either of them superior to the other. Empaths act driven by sensibility, while sociopaths act driven by rationality. 

    I believe their divergent views make them complementary. Sociopaths can learn to conveniently (to find it reasonably better to) develop emotion, while empaths can learn to optimally (to find it emotionally healthier to) develop reason. This means that, they could become prodigies if they learn how to join both of these complex & contrasting perspectives in a single mind. A human that has developed his full potential (emotional & rational).

    As a product of a Sociopath father & an Empath mother, I've always questioned their irrational union, me being a regular Sociopath trying to reach a conclusion by reason; I have always disapproved their arguing if they won't be reaching a concrete decision. I then noticed that by trying to reasonably (with the logical perception) explain the problem to my empath relative i didn't get anywhere & that she by crying, (a form of emotional response to an issue; some sort of language/form of expression of her perception), only irritated my sociopath progenitor and myself, for our efforts seemed to prove pointless. We weren't able to communicate. 

    Once i tried to explain a problem to my mother & she insisted on receiving an emotional response on behalf of the family, my father refused saying it wasn't a temperamental matter (and I agreed). I don't know how nor why, I lost my self-control (something I detest), I screamed & cried out of anger, frustration & powerlessness. I didn't expect to get the result i was rationalizing the situation for: for her to agree since (to me) it seemed logical and obvious. She agreed because she saw sentiment, i had spoken in her own language. This lead me to aim for feeling, not only to imitate it and express it based on it's usability in the social field, but to make real emotion flourish; something we're undeveloped in as Sociopaths. 

    You may wonder why, and I would reasonably say, simply because it's practicable and favorable for successful human interaction. It is logical for sociopaths to develop emotion since it's useful. It is ideal for empaths to develop logic since it's healthy. A rational that emotionalizes, an emotional that rationalizes, in order to communicate ideas & optimally reach conclusions together; we would be alike, we would 'speak the same languages'. Because, let's face it: empath, sociopath or psychopath, and however different we may be, we cant fight the fact that we still embody the human race. Might as well adjust for the only thing we undoubtedly agree on.

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  10. MR 18yr old socio

    I wonder if socios would be ashamed of me and empaths feel offended. Would that make them extraterrestrial? Maybe I'm being too idealistic; but, correct me with logic, I won't be embarrassed.
    I'm just saying that if sociopaths & empaths continue to identify themselves solely with their own dissimilar perspectives (which I find the most drastic), or for that matter everybody identified only with their personal perspectives, being unable to sympathize or unwilling to comprehend the viewpoint of another caused by denying making an effort to, it would result in making it impossible to function as a society. I hope empaths and sociopaths appreciate the other's forte, for both are somewhat superhuman and capable enough to make a change in our society that's been disrupted by the false infectious need of individualism (I don't mean individuality) & mislead by a notion of overall rivalry (I don't mean controversy). I find these two types of human beings the most capable of perceiving such a mistake in actual social behavior & working together to triumph in fixing the condition, taking both reason & emotion in consideration; because, to be honest, I find these two mortals to be the personification of yin (empaths) & yang (socio/psychopaths).

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    1. I identify people as either intelligent or stupid. If you're the former, I will listen to you. If you're the latter, all I want is to exterminate you. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who fit into the stupid category.

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    2. what do you mean? I agree with you in a way, but what is your basis to determine wether someone is intelligent or stupid? I'd like to know so I can help you determine which one I am.
      Mr 18yr old socio

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  11. You have a positive attitude that I wish more people shared. You sound wise beyond your age. And yes, people find this attitude to be idealistic. I have two examples in my life of relationships between a sociopath and an empath. I am using the terms empath and sociopath loosely, to refer to the difference between how each view the world. Primarily rational vs mostly emotional. I am by no means a psychologist or psychiatrist.

    One relationship I am referring to is a romantic relationship that lasted many years (double digits). Somebody close to me. Extremely positive for many years, did not end on a positive note for either party (something that also happens to relationships between empaths, not that I need to point that out...) The kids they have together are doing quite well indeed.

    The other is a work relationship of several years (single digit). The work relationship has been positive for both sides. Quite emotionally and intellectually difficult for the empath and somewhat thrilling for the sociopath but they have both profited from each other's influence. The empath is a now a fifty+ year old woman (most people on this blog would refer to her as super empath), the sociopath a man in his early thirties (wise beyond his age).

    As you mention in your post, they have taught and are still teaching each other how to view the world from their own very differing perspective. It is a journey. By all means the empath has flourished in her job and has been promoted. She is a mother of teenagers and has been married for over 20 years. The sociopath also cemented his place at work, got married and is expecting his first child. I am sure some people can find the negative in this relationship, or some will wish for it to go sour. Most likely they will say something like the empath is co-dependent or suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Or the sociopath is only exploiting the empath. (Well sociopaths do exploit empaths. That is how they view the world... what do I get from this relationship?) Who knows what other negative thoughts will enter their mind.

    I would love to hear more about your parents and how they made it work. Are they still together now?

    OldAndWise

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    Replies
    1. Yes, they have considered divorce a couple times but they always decide to stay together for our sake (me & my siblings), they share something in common. ( Which is what made me wonder if there could be something (aside from family) that could hold such opposite views together: so i figured that the only irrefutable fact that we share in common is that we are part of the human species.)

      The only thing that can hold contrasts together is something in common: even yin & yang have something in common, they can both agree that they're the opposite of the other.

      MR 18yr old socio

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  12. truesight:

    Isn`t being kind and compassionate the true expression of biological pressure. An organism that put the need of others as something more relevant than his own impulses is a necessity of existence, he has been molded by reproductive mechanism. By growing more complexified through the ages, life has put its own limits to our dream of divinity: the impossibility to be a lone entity. We can`t be anything else than a part of a larger group of living cells, organs or organisms. Even the sociopath is a debased needy pathetic bag of juice that desperately cling to his favored impulses. The mind is the consequence of complexification and it is destroyed when our body ceases to exist. You cannot be God, we are always only his excretion on this forsaken world. You will die has helpless as you have lived, in a constant state of despair, and at the moment you think you are the mightier with your delusions of personal growth is the exact moment fate is laughing at you. I don`t understand narcissistic, what is their to gain from what others should think of you? Im not being condescendent I just really want to know how it feels to feel pleasure from being the centerfold, the star in the sky? For my part I always thought as a youngsters that if I ceased to exist the world would crumble to dust, simply because you all exist in my mind only.

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  13. A dose of truth thrown in with all the bull.... Refreshing.

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    1. Actually just another dose of bullshit... choke on my sight!

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  14. Yeah like we make up our beliefs, the ones that suit us best. I have convinced myself that I am confident. I have convinced myself that I am happy and relatively peaceful. And I can modify or make up any beliefs I want .. This is my dream and I am the dreamweaver.

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  15. Its really just about convincing your subconscious with repetition until it treats it as fact.

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  16. You can do miracle healing (like healing broken bones) that way too. You need a lot of belief, and to be rid of all guilts and doubts.

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  17. The subconscious is basically built to take orders.. and mimic.

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    1. You are not ordering, you are being ordered. Cant u SEE?

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  18. Contact the superconscious , then your guided from higher sources.

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    1. If you believe there is a higher source you're a moron. You're also a moron for believing. Things either are or are not. If you believe something to be, you're only lying to yourself. You might as well just put the gun in your mouth and pull the trigger, for that's all the worth in the world you are to everyone else.

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  19. god is the enemy, never doubt that

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  20. For rules in my life I look toward science. I simply cannot obey anyone else's rules unless I like them myself. But when it comes to natural laws, why try to do something which is impossible? Why waste your time?

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