People are trained to be this way. People DO need to be trained in rudimentry survival skills and the upkeep of their physical forms. The trouble occurrs when they move this into the realm of thought and memory and begin to have "set" expectations. Then, we get into the realm of what the late Dr. Albert Ellias called "Musturbation." "Things MUST be as I wish, for me not to feel threatened and content." "I MUST have a specific outcome, or I'm a FAILURE (Whatever that means.) There's no time like the present, because there's nothing BUT the present. The people who would like to crush your soul so they can have power over you don't want you to know that. you are a threat to the power structure so they will do everything in their power to destroy you.
While it's useful to hang out here in an attempt to understand psychopathy, whenever I start missing my ex and need a reality check, I hightail it over to Claudia Moscovici's Psychopathy awareness: bit.ly/1hon68R
Even psychopaths who describe themselves as pro-social are probably destroying someone's life in private. Moscovici nails the endless ways they wear you down. She describes the behavior so accurately you realize it's nothing personal; it's the disorder stupid.
Anyway... sad... I've been missing my ex since Easter so I needed to be slapped back to reality.
You miss a fata morgana, a gold rush, an addiction. Fill your life with lovely contents and let time go by, and you realize, that all you miss(ed) is a shadow. you have dealt and you deal with an illness, which typically is harmful for other people.
So here's the deal. I left him, cut contact, ignored all attempts by him to talk. This was after a series of mini-breakups where nothing ever changed and he refused to acknowledge that we had broken up. I loved him but it was all about him.
Fast forward a couple of years, he's moved on. I've got my life more-or-less back on track. I'd like to resume low-level contact. He'd be a great person to have a coffee with, he has a unique perspective and makes me laugh. I do not want to resume anything romantically. Is this foolish thinking on my part? Is he going to return the favor and reject my phone call? I won't do anything hasty, just mulling it over for now. If anyone has some useful input, I'm all ears.
He's hurt you, hasn't he? Sociopath or not, he's probably an asshole. For the life of me, I'll never understand why women gravitate towards men who mistreat them.
You want advice? Do whatever it is you want. If it makes your life better, great. If you get hurt, it's your own damn fault, because you knew better. If you pathologically seek out and cling to men who cause you pain, get counseling.
@Erik.........Really? You don't know why women gravitate towards asshole men. Try this; women had one or both parents or a caretaker that was a malignant narcissist or sociopath. Sounds right, huh?
Proceed with caution. Don't loose all the ground you've gained for yourself and worked so hard for. If you do, you'll loose your own self-respect, and possibly the respect from others that know about the situation and have helped you through. Not worth it!
Sounds like you haven't built up a strong enough support system for yourself and your feeling vulnerable right now. Probably not a good time to contact someone that is unhealthy for you.
Oh God yes! My mother is a narc and having spent Easter with her, I feel sick. She acts like everything's perfect - apart from extreme selfishness, she's covert and her lies are always open to interpretation. I leave feeling extremely agitated, sick stomach, feel like crying... and I often don't know why, except realizing that she has no feelings for me but plays the part. For years I had no idea why I would come away from home feeling terrible.
So weirdly she reopens a lot of wounds and I start thinking of the ex. My life lies in ruins. Honestly people with personality disorders should not have children.
@ Erik
Yes, he hurt me. To the depths of my being. I was so innocent and he destroyed my trust. I'm strong though and intelligent, so onwards and upwards. As with my mother, you couldn't pin much on him since he was clever and devious so I don't really know the extent of it. I'd feel things, know them on some level but not find out I'd been deceived until much later. I can't afford counselling but it's on my to-do list. I'm a mess today, crying at the wasted potential, the lost dreams and the wreckage that is my life. Meeting the sociopath was great in one way though, it was like getting the final piece of the jigsaw that helped me understand my upbringing. Before that I was in the dark, constantly reading philosophy and not having a clue.
Wow. You really should put counseling on the top of your list of things-to-do. From what I am reading, it seems as though you want to hate this guy because he did all these "horrible" things to you, yet you still want to have coffee with him and chat it up. All of the signs are pointing to the fact that you unconsciously revel in the abuse and want to be brought back into the "horrible" life he provided. You would not keep coming back to him if you did not. If you truly are lost and want to get out the wreckage that is your life, quit whining like a fourteen year old girl and do something about it. The only common factor in all of YOUR failed relationships is YOU.
Jeez Shad, have you got any more clichés for me. See, the thing I liked about the ex was his intelligence. Unlike you, he gets nuance. Where are you reading that I want to hate him? I liked him and enjoyed his company and simple wonder if there's anything to salvage. I made no mention of a horrible life, projection much. As I said, I have my situation more-or-less back on track but today I'm surveying the wreckage of the past. I guess that's whining, no doubt something you'd never do ;)
Oh how I love a little bite back in return. ;) "I'm a mess today, crying at the wasted potential, the lost dreams and the wreckage that is my life." I suppose it was this sentence that made me puzzled as to why you want to continue seeing him. I understand that you believe this guy is extremely articulate and intelligent- but is a conversation here and there over a nice cup of mug really worth the pain and lost dreams that he has caused you? It seems silly to me that you want to salvage the relationship now, even though you ignored him for so long before. You say that you have your life back on track now which implies that you did not before. Why would you want to go back to the way things were?
Finding someone intelligent and witty to chat with isn't that tough. Also, if he is actually a sociopath, he'll probably only entertain you if he wants something from you.
What might he want? Is it what you want? Perhaps most importantly, if you reconnect with him, how likely is he to get it?
That little voice that suggested something was amiss? Intuition. Listen to it when you interact with him and maybe you can have a healthy friendship.
@ Shad .... Ok I get a bit jumbled when I'm feeling emotional. I suppose what I meant was if I look back on my life to date, it's not the steady construction I envisaged. I haven't time to get into it here but let's just say I have not lived up to my potential. When I finished with the ex, I let all sorts of balls drop and it has taken me a while to regain momentum. I'm not saying all the lost dreams were tied up with, or in, him by any means. I ignored him because it was the only way I could get away and let him know it was really, truly over. Time has passed, things have moved on and I wonder if it might be possible to reconnect. I have no intention of going "back to the way things were" but he's a special man, even among psychopaths - and I have known a few - so if we can enjoy each other's company over a coffee once in a while, I'd like the sense of continuity.
@ Anon... You think? I find it hard enough to meet witty, intelligent people. Then again, I probably need to get out more. He'll want the same thing from me (I think) as I want from him - lively banter about all sorts of everything. Is healthy friendship possible with a sociopath? That is the crux of it.
I think you answered your own question?! You rejected all contact from him, and he had no idea you broke it off. Cut him completely off with no conversation to follow /or explanation. He moves on.... which he should have. And you've moved on...which is also good. And after a few years you want to have coffee and hang out. Leave him alone. Chapter is done. What's not to say he never suffered in his own way. You had your reasons to cut him off... you mention from your perspective of things - he's self absorbed. I get it. But why couldn't you have talked it over like two rational adults? You're thinking about it because people should not have to go to that extent in leaving unresolved conflicts open - as to why you broke it off. It's disrespectful for both of you. If he's moved on....stay where you are. No contact means: valuing yourself in your new life, and valuing him in his new life. Just my advise.
If you're not afraid of being hurt by him (you'll never trust him in a romantic relationship) what harm is there to try and reconnect? If he's interested, you can have your lively banter. If not, you at least will have tried.
On the other hand, you're very vulnerable right now. If he resents you for cutting him off, he could hurt you. He could even sweep you off your feet! Ask yourself, why are you now feeling so strongly? What has changed? Is it really him you want, or is there some unidentified desire within you, and you think he can satisfy it?
When did you last attempt to leave a sociopath who wasn't yet finished with the relationship Superchick? Rational, adult discussion doesn't enter into it. The loss of control is too much for them. He wasn't interested in resolving conflicts, simply in getting his needs met.
That said, it was one of the saddest things I've ever done. I've thought about him every day since. If anyone has a good socio breakup scenario to report, I'd love to hear about it. The idea of reaching out to him at this stage is starting to seem ludicrous so I'll bury it. He'd probably tell me to eff off anyway and I can't say I'd blame him. Bottom line: if he had loved me as I loved him, I'd be with him now instead of talking about him to strangers on the internet :)
That's it Erik, ultimately I am afraid that he could, and almost did, destroy me. Because he doesn't play by the rules - of decency and fair play. What is my stupid, little life to him in the absence of compassion for a fellow human? He struggles with his dark side but at times seems powerless against it. I abandoned him to the struggle so I could save myself. But I'm thinking of him and wishing him well. That will have to be enough.
Anon 2:10, I do not know if this will help or if it is even relevant to what you are looking for but I was in a three year relationship with a girl who was a clear cut narc (maybe a tad bit histrionic.) Basically for three years, we would hang out, eat food, make small talk and have sex. We were actually a great fit for each other. She did not care that on the inside I did not have a real personality and I did not care that she was a crazy bitch who only cared about what people though of her. We practically took turns cheating on each other throughout the years, trying to gain the upper-hand in the relationship as we saw fit. The people I hung out with did not understand why we kept coming back to each other but the truth is we just understood each other. Neither of us really gave a shit if the other one hooked up with another person because we both knew it didn't mean anything besides sex. Eventually though, I got accepted to a school that was too far away so we ended it. It was actually an extremely rewarding relationship and I do not regret a thing about it.
My point is that I believe you can have a stable and rewarding relationship with a socio if it is the right kind of relationship for both parties. It just takes an understanding of what both sides want out of the relationship. If your socio is causing you to lose your shit and turn into a jumbled mess, I do not recommend going back.
I hope this helped. Well not really, but you get what I mean. ;)
I just read through some of the posts I think I get an idea of what type of sociopath you're attracted to. for your own sake and his, just be cautious, I don't recommended it, unless of course you accept the fact that you may leave yourself vulnerable to rehash those feelings again. Or maybe you need to face it. If you decide to reconnect with him, take all emotion out /or tolerate the emotion for what it is. A little play, and light conversation is fun. worth it? Only you can answer that. With choice, comes consequence. Good or bad. Maybe you will prove to yourself that you'r simply stronger at following his cues now, and you have the stamina of resilience to not be toyed with. And you both can actually have a meaningful give and take relationship. Your in the driver's seat. Observe it all, watch closely. Or you possibly might get triggered, and fall back into that vulnerable state you were once in. He doesn't follow rules, he's his own authority. The key for him is submission. If he slowly yields, your pretty much like putty to him. Have the upper-hand and be in the drivers seat, put your feelings on the back burner in front of him. Sounds inhumane, but you'll be able to bounce back quicker and tame yourself if you feel like your slipping under the grip. You have to accept the way he works and functions. if it's not for you, then let it be - and be on your way to other things that make you happy. You will not change him. it's acceptance of the sociopaths makeup & wiring that will make you move onward (only you know what will work for your own particular situation). good luck.
'What difference is there, do you think, between those in Plato's cave who can only marvel at the shadows and images of various objects, provided they are content and don't know what they miss, and the philosopher who has emerged from the cave and sees the real things?'
'In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.'
Lao Tzu is awesome! I have bought at least 50 copies of the Tao Te Ching over the years, and have given every single copy away so far to people I have met along my journey of life. I have probably read the entire book front to back at least 100 times, and glance back at a few chapters on a weekly basis.
I don't think that your quote is the most fitting of all of Lao Tzu's for the quote this thread is on, but I delight in seeing Lao Tzu's words perpetuated. Lao Tzu's works are truly genius, and contain much of the wisdom needed to truly master the art of life.
There is nothing in the world more soft and weak than water, and yet for attacking things that are firm and strong there is nothing that can take precedence of it.
"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror." -1 Corinthians 13:11 - 13:12 (Christian Bible, NIV)
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People are trained to be this way. People DO need to be
ReplyDeletetrained in rudimentry survival skills and the upkeep of their
physical forms. The trouble occurrs when they move this
into the realm of thought and memory and begin to have "set"
expectations. Then, we get into the realm of what the late Dr.
Albert Ellias called "Musturbation." "Things MUST be as I wish, for
me not to feel threatened and content." "I MUST have a specific
outcome, or I'm a FAILURE (Whatever that means.)
There's no time like the present, because there's nothing BUT
the present. The people who would like to crush your soul so
they can have power over you don't want you to know that.
you are a threat to the power structure so they will do everything
in their power to destroy you.
to a certain extent, but only the weak willed will maintain this shape permanently if it is in opposition to basic temperament.
ReplyDeleteWhile it's useful to hang out here in an attempt to understand psychopathy, whenever I start missing my ex and need a reality check, I hightail it over to Claudia Moscovici's Psychopathy awareness: bit.ly/1hon68R
ReplyDeleteEven psychopaths who describe themselves as pro-social are probably destroying someone's life in private. Moscovici nails the endless ways they wear you down. She describes the behavior so accurately you realize it's nothing personal; it's the disorder stupid.
Anyway... sad... I've been missing my ex since Easter so I needed to be slapped back to reality.
You miss a fata morgana, a gold rush, an addiction. Fill your life with lovely contents and let time go by, and you realize, that all you miss(ed) is a shadow. you have dealt and you deal with an illness, which typically is harmful for other people.
DeleteThat article was the biggest load of horse shit I have read in a long time from a bitter pitiful lovefrauder.
DeleteWhich bits of her assessment did you disagree with?
DeleteSo here's the deal. I left him, cut contact, ignored all attempts by him to talk. This was after a series of mini-breakups where nothing ever changed and he refused to acknowledge that we had broken up. I loved him but it was all about him.
ReplyDeleteFast forward a couple of years, he's moved on. I've got my life more-or-less back on track. I'd like to resume low-level contact. He'd be a great person to have a coffee with, he has a unique perspective and makes me laugh. I do not want to resume anything romantically. Is this foolish thinking on my part? Is he going to return the favor and reject my phone call? I won't do anything hasty, just mulling it over for now. If anyone has some useful input, I'm all ears.
He's hurt you, hasn't he? Sociopath or not, he's probably an asshole. For the life of me, I'll never understand why women gravitate towards men who mistreat them.
DeleteYou want advice? Do whatever it is you want. If it makes your life better, great. If you get hurt, it's your own damn fault, because you knew better. If you pathologically seek out and cling to men who cause you pain, get counseling.
@Erik.........Really? You don't know why women gravitate towards asshole men. Try this; women had one or both parents or a caretaker that was a malignant narcissist or sociopath. Sounds right, huh?
DeleteProceed with caution. Don't loose all the ground you've gained for yourself and worked so hard for. If you do, you'll loose your own self-respect, and possibly the respect from others that know about the situation and have helped you through. Not worth it!
DeleteSounds like you haven't built up a strong enough support system for yourself and your feeling vulnerable right now. Probably not a good time to contact someone that is unhealthy for you.
Delete@Anon 7:47
DeleteOh God yes! My mother is a narc and having spent Easter with her, I feel sick. She acts like everything's perfect - apart from extreme selfishness, she's covert and her lies are always open to interpretation. I leave feeling extremely agitated, sick stomach, feel like crying... and I often don't know why, except realizing that she has no feelings for me but plays the part. For years I had no idea why I would come away from home feeling terrible.
So weirdly she reopens a lot of wounds and I start thinking of the ex. My life lies in ruins. Honestly people with personality disorders should not have children.
@ Erik
Yes, he hurt me. To the depths of my being. I was so innocent and he destroyed my trust. I'm strong though and intelligent, so onwards and upwards. As with my mother, you couldn't pin much on him since he was clever and devious so I don't really know the extent of it. I'd feel things, know them on some level but not find out I'd been deceived until much later. I can't afford counselling but it's on my to-do list. I'm a mess today, crying at the wasted potential, the lost dreams and the wreckage that is my life. Meeting the sociopath was great in one way though, it was like getting the final piece of the jigsaw that helped me understand my upbringing. Before that I was in the dark, constantly reading philosophy and not having a clue.
Wow. You really should put counseling on the top of your list of things-to-do. From what I am reading, it seems as though you want to hate this guy because he did all these "horrible" things to you, yet you still want to have coffee with him and chat it up. All of the signs are pointing to the fact that you unconsciously revel in the abuse and want to be brought back into the "horrible" life he provided. You would not keep coming back to him if you did not. If you truly are lost and want to get out the wreckage that is your life, quit whining like a fourteen year old girl and do something about it. The only common factor in all of YOUR failed relationships is YOU.
DeleteJeez Shad, have you got any more clichés for me. See, the thing I liked about the ex was his intelligence. Unlike you, he gets nuance. Where are you reading that I want to hate him? I liked him and enjoyed his company and simple wonder if there's anything to salvage. I made no mention of a horrible life, projection much. As I said, I have my situation more-or-less back on track but today I'm surveying the wreckage of the past. I guess that's whining, no doubt something you'd never do ;)
DeleteOh how I love a little bite back in return. ;)
Delete"I'm a mess today, crying at the wasted potential, the lost dreams and the wreckage that is my life."
I suppose it was this sentence that made me puzzled as to why you want to continue seeing him. I understand that you believe this guy is extremely articulate and intelligent- but is a conversation here and there over a nice cup of mug really worth the pain and lost dreams that he has caused you? It seems silly to me that you want to salvage the relationship now, even though you ignored him for so long before. You say that you have your life back on track now which implies that you did not before. Why would you want to go back to the way things were?
Finding someone intelligent and witty to chat with isn't that tough. Also, if he is actually a sociopath, he'll probably only entertain you if he wants something from you.
DeleteWhat might he want? Is it what you want? Perhaps most importantly, if you reconnect with him, how likely is he to get it?
That little voice that suggested something was amiss? Intuition. Listen to it when you interact with him and maybe you can have a healthy friendship.
@ Shad .... Ok I get a bit jumbled when I'm feeling emotional. I suppose what I meant was if I look back on my life to date, it's not the steady construction I envisaged. I haven't time to get into it here but let's just say I have not lived up to my potential. When I finished with the ex, I let all sorts of balls drop and it has taken me a while to regain momentum. I'm not saying all the lost dreams were tied up with, or in, him by any means. I ignored him because it was the only way I could get away and let him know it was really, truly over. Time has passed, things have moved on and I wonder if it might be possible to reconnect. I have no intention of going "back to the way things were" but he's a special man, even among psychopaths - and I have known a few - so if we can enjoy each other's company over a coffee once in a while, I'd like the sense of continuity.
Delete@ Anon... You think? I find it hard enough to meet witty, intelligent people. Then again, I probably need to get out more. He'll want the same thing from me (I think) as I want from him - lively banter about all sorts of everything. Is healthy friendship possible with a sociopath? That is the crux of it.
I think you answered your own question?! You rejected all contact from him, and he had no idea you broke it off. Cut him completely off with no conversation to follow /or explanation.
DeleteHe moves on.... which he should have. And you've moved on...which is also good. And after a few years you want to have coffee and hang out. Leave him alone. Chapter is done. What's not to say he never suffered in his own way. You had your reasons to cut him off... you mention from your perspective of things - he's self absorbed. I get it. But why couldn't you have talked it over like two rational adults? You're thinking about it because people should not have to go to that extent in leaving unresolved conflicts open - as to why you broke it off. It's disrespectful for both of you. If he's moved on....stay where you are. No contact means: valuing yourself in your new life, and valuing him in his new life. Just my advise.
If you're not afraid of being hurt by him (you'll never trust him in a romantic relationship) what harm is there to try and reconnect? If he's interested, you can have your lively banter. If not, you at least will have tried.
DeleteOn the other hand, you're very vulnerable right now. If he resents you for cutting him off, he could hurt you. He could even sweep you off your feet! Ask yourself, why are you now feeling so strongly? What has changed? Is it really him you want, or is there some unidentified desire within you, and you think he can satisfy it?
When did you last attempt to leave a sociopath who wasn't yet finished with the relationship Superchick? Rational, adult discussion doesn't enter into it. The loss of control is too much for them. He wasn't interested in resolving conflicts, simply in getting his needs met.
DeleteThat said, it was one of the saddest things I've ever done. I've thought about him every day since. If anyone has a good socio breakup scenario to report, I'd love to hear about it. The idea of reaching out to him at this stage is starting to seem ludicrous so I'll bury it. He'd probably tell me to eff off anyway and I can't say I'd blame him. Bottom line: if he had loved me as I loved him, I'd be with him now instead of talking about him to strangers on the internet :)
That's it Erik, ultimately I am afraid that he could, and almost did, destroy me. Because he doesn't play by the rules - of decency and fair play. What is my stupid, little life to him in the absence of compassion for a fellow human? He struggles with his dark side but at times seems powerless against it. I abandoned him to the struggle so I could save myself. But I'm thinking of him and wishing him well. That will have to be enough.
DeleteAnon 2:10, I do not know if this will help or if it is even relevant to what you are looking for but I was in a three year relationship with a girl who was a clear cut narc (maybe a tad bit histrionic.) Basically for three years, we would hang out, eat food, make small talk and have sex. We were actually a great fit for each other. She did not care that on the inside I did not have a real personality and I did not care that she was a crazy bitch who only cared about what people though of her. We practically took turns cheating on each other throughout the years, trying to gain the upper-hand in the relationship as we saw fit. The people I hung out with did not understand why we kept coming back to each other but the truth is we just understood each other. Neither of us really gave a shit if the other one hooked up with another person because we both knew it didn't mean anything besides sex. Eventually though, I got accepted to a school that was too far away so we ended it. It was actually an extremely rewarding relationship and I do not regret a thing about it.
DeleteMy point is that I believe you can have a stable and rewarding relationship with a socio if it is the right kind of relationship for both parties. It just takes an understanding of what both sides want out of the relationship. If your socio is causing you to lose your shit and turn into a jumbled mess, I do not recommend going back.
I hope this helped. Well not really, but you get what I mean. ;)
I just read through some of the posts I think I get an idea of what type of sociopath you're attracted to. for your own sake and his, just be cautious, I don't recommended it, unless of course you accept the fact that you may leave yourself vulnerable to rehash those feelings again. Or maybe you need to face it. If you decide to reconnect with him, take all emotion out /or tolerate the emotion for what it is. A little play, and light conversation is fun. worth it? Only you can answer that. With choice, comes consequence. Good or bad. Maybe you will prove to yourself that you'r simply stronger at following his cues now, and you have the stamina of resilience to not be toyed with. And you both can actually have a meaningful give and take relationship. Your in the driver's seat. Observe it all, watch closely. Or you possibly might get triggered, and fall back into that vulnerable state you were once in. He doesn't follow rules, he's his own authority. The key for him is submission. If he slowly yields, your pretty much like putty to him. Have the upper-hand and be in the drivers seat, put your feelings on the back burner in front of him. Sounds inhumane, but you'll be able to bounce back quicker and tame yourself if you feel like your slipping under the grip. You have to accept the way he works and functions. if it's not for you, then let it be - and be on your way to other things that make you happy. You will not change him. it's acceptance of the sociopaths makeup & wiring that will make you move onward (only you know what will work for your own particular situation). good luck.
DeleteGood thing our bodies are pliable and can be reshaped and reformed with our own effort.
ReplyDeleteHarmonize Love and Power.
ReplyDeleteWe can soften ourselves.
ReplyDeleteMR 18yr old socio
ReplyDeleteWhat are you trying to say?
'What difference is there, do you think, between those in Plato's cave who can only marvel at the shadows and images of various objects, provided they are content and don't know what they miss, and the philosopher who has emerged from the cave and sees the real things?'
'In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.'
Desiderius Erasmus
When two great forces oppose each other,
ReplyDeletethe victory will go
to the one that knows how to yield.
-Lao Tzu
Lao Tzu is awesome! I have bought at least 50 copies of the Tao Te Ching over the years, and have given every single copy away so far to people I have met along my journey of life. I have probably read the entire book front to back at least 100 times, and glance back at a few chapters on a weekly basis.
DeleteI don't think that your quote is the most fitting of all of Lao Tzu's for the quote this thread is on, but I delight in seeing Lao Tzu's words perpetuated. Lao Tzu's works are truly genius, and contain much of the wisdom needed to truly master the art of life.
Lol I donno yeah I guess better fitting would be:
DeleteThere is nothing in the world more soft and weak than water,
and yet for attacking things that are firm and strong there is nothing
that can take precedence of it.
Monsters.
ReplyDeleteWill we accept ourselves, or will we turn away in shame.
ReplyDeleteWhen we judge, we judge ourselves.
"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror."
ReplyDelete-1 Corinthians 13:11 - 13:12 (Christian Bible, NIV)
Such is life.
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