I am wondering if a sociopath devoid of any narcissism and sadism could function at all in society. I would venture to say that perhaps a certain level of those traits is necessary to higher functioning sociopaths. What would be the motivation for them to get out of bed in the morning and interact with people in a manner that is engaged/engaging enough to keep them functioning in society? They have blunted emotional response to negative stimuli, so surely they need a bit of emotional response to positive stimuli (narcissism) or they need to get something out of affecting people in some way: either destructively (sadism) or constructively (back to narcissism) - Beware, tough, the constructive sociopath is probably out to get you :-)
I actually am having problems conceptualizing a sociopath without any narcissism or sadism. Wouldn't his behavior be more akin to that of an autistic person then, uninterested in interaction with people?
I realize I am oversimplifying things here, but I am very interested in any response, especially from Machiavellianempath and ME.
I've been thinking about this recently, particularly after coming across the novel Farenheit 451 again. I love Ray Bradbury, and this is a favorite of mine. The narrator of the story is a fireman, tasked with burning books, et al. in a dystopian oppressive regime. Although (spoiler alert) he eventually comes to see the folly of his ways, he still (and refreshingly) acknowledges with great candor the pleasures of his previous work:
It was a pleasure to burn.
It was a special pleasure to see things eaten, to see things blackened and changed. With the brass nozzle in his fists, with this great python spitting its venomous kerosene upon the world, the blood pounded in his head, and his hands were the hands of some amazing conductor playing all the symphonies of blazing and burning to bring down the tatters and charcoal ruins of history. With his symbolic helmet numbered 451 on his stolid head, and his eyes all orange flame with the thought of what came next, he flicked the igniter and the house jumped up in a gorging fire that burned the evening sky red and yellow and black. He strode in a swarm of fireflies. He wanted above all, like the old joke, to shove a marshmallow on a stick in the furnace, while the flapping pigeon-winged books died on the porch and lawn of the house. While the books went up in sparkling whirls and blew away on a wind turned dark with burning.
I can also say with all candor that it was a pleasure to burn. Some of the worst things I have done in most people's eyes were great pleasure to me. That's why I did them. I understand that people wish that were not true, and I feel the same to an extent. I know some of my supporters wish that I was neither narcissistic or sadistic, but I suffer from both in varying degrees that flare up in different contexts. I don't feel like there is anything inherently wrong with these traits (as illustrated in the comment above) anymore than I feel like there is something wrong with deriving pleasure in destruction. It's more about how and the context in which they manifest themselves, right? And the particular standard of morality you adopt? And whether you are on the axis or the allied side? And whether you can control yourself or should know better or whether you embrace it or pretend otherwise or some other stuff? I don't know, I don't really understand it all, but I'm trying to also learn your perspective on these things, so thanks for being patient.
1ST AGAIN LOSERS!!!!!! I WIN! I WIN! AGAIN!!!!! YAY!!!
ReplyDeleteCurses! Foiled again!
DeleteI will burn you, Whitey. I will toast delicious marshmallows over your flaming corpse. My glorious python in my hands, spitting its voluminous juices into the charred remains of your eye sockets.
People love to view trainwreks. There were many that said
ReplyDeletethe sight of the two planes crashing into the World Trade Center
on September 11 was "strangely beautiful."
Some people hate the designation of 'good and evil' - or rather, it's the evil bit they don't like - because of the judgement it implies. But as designations go, it's fitting. There are people who love destruction and those who love to create. The sight of something burning induces sadness in many - the pointless destruction, the loss of a beautiful or useful object and all the man hours that went into making it - just as it induces ecstasy in others.
ReplyDeleteI have (an otherwise) intelligent friend who is very exercised about the Illuminati lately. She sees their symbols everywhere. I can't rubbish her concerns as I haven't looked into it, but whether symbolic or real, it seems some people are Satan's officers from birth. Why? I have no idea.
Along those same lines is the whole demonic possession idea. The problem with getting too invested in these explanations is that it is a distraction from the real life moral dilemmas that most people think. Very rarely are moral actions completely obvious in a binary sense. To see individuals who oppose you as agents of Satan might feel empowering in a righteous indignation sort of way, but at the greater expense of the loss of all ability on your part to see the human motivations your opponent might be experiencing. For example- you might think that your reasons for failing to ascend the corporate ladder is that your direct supervisor must be Illuminati and is destined to oppress you. If you think like this you are far less motivated to engage in self examination that will help you see that perhaps some of your skills are sub par. Many people would rather default to "I'm a victim of evil" than consider that perhaps they might be experiencing difficulties because of their own limitations.
DeleteI'm not necessarily referring to Satan as an entity, more as an idea, a consciousness, the path of least resistance for the morally flaccid. If someone burns out a car because it was used in a bank robbery, I can see some sense in that. But if they burn it because of hidden resentment that it belongs to someone else, it's just wanton destruction that benefits no one. Yes, they might enjoy watching it go up in flames and take pleasure in the brief illusion of power, but when it's turned to ashes, they can't but feel like losers. They are, essentially, just speading the misery. I think that's their motivation.
Deleteso if I follow correctly - your point is:
DeleteDestruction that exists as a means to and end may sometimes be warranted. Destruction as an end unto itself is evil.
I think that's a pretty profound description of evil, actually.
Yes, that's it in a nutshell.
Delete?? A "spectrum condition" can show almost any type of variation. Why does a wolf or spider rise and shine in the morning? To maim and kill, just for fun? To do what they´ve been "programmed" to do. Same goes with many psychos: "machine-like" behaviour without questions about meaning or afterlife. They need certain things, they get it.
ReplyDeleteYes, if you think humans are creatures like any others but if you believe that our existence has meaning that sets us apart, intelligence that sets us apart, a spiritual dimension - more is expected from us than 'machine-like' behaviour.
DeleteBut that´s what the average psycho has to offer, that was my "point". And normal man is just an advanced ape with hybris. Should show more respect when meeting his kin at the zoo.
DeleteI used to be a Psychopath, until recently I never knew that I was one. I always rationalized that I was the normal one, and that everybody else was "stupid" and it was their fault for not being able to understand me. I always thought I would be "rescued" by some woman who would see that I was "Special", but I didn't realize that nobody could love me truly because I didn't really exist, I was just a brain that worked like a computer in a Human body. Being a Psyhopath, a real Psychopath that is utterly unable to feel Love or feel connected to anyone is not something to boast about, beause it is a horrible meaningless existence, you can never truly be happy. That's why you have to chase worldly thrills to excite yourself, because without these worldly sensations you won't feel alive. You have no "sense of self" because you are nothing, just an animal like being that can respond to stimuli in an advanced way.
ReplyDeleteThe good news is that it doesn't have to be this way, but you have to admit your innate faults, your sins and pray to Lord Jesus Christ, it takes some time to work out how empty you and then pray for redemption and a conscience. But if you do it will be worth it, trust me, I can now feel love for other people, and when I talk to somebody I can feel a connection with them, I am no longer on my own and thus I no longer need to act, my whole life I was acting, in every single conversation, and if you think about it what is the point if you are just acting? Now I know why I used to get tired being around people, being a Psychopath having to work out what to say all the time is tiring and relationships with other people are unrewarding unless you can extract some information or services out of them. When you realize this you will see that being like that, there is no point being with other people. For the first time in my life I can now smile, with my eyes, not because I am forcing my self too, but because I feel Happy! And other people actually respond to me better now, than they ever did when I was acting. It feels strange at first when somebody, a stranger even, smiles at you and it makes you feel happy, it feels good but you are not sure how to respond, but in time I will get used to this and everything will come naturally. People respond to you differently, they can sense that you are "Human", rather than a machine like being.
All you have to do is keep on saying the Lords Prayer as often as possible:
Our Father, who art in heaven
Hallowed by thy name
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven,
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the Kingdom
and the power and the glory
forever and ever, Amen.
In time you will develop a relationship with Jesus and feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in you, then you ask Jesus to repair your conscience and have the ability to love people, only then will you feel truly alive and happy.
If anybody has any questions then feel free to respond.
That is an amazing transformation, what led you to religion? Have you considered approaching someone involved in the study of psychopathy so that you could be used as a case study to help others?
DeleteI know a narcissist who has been religious all her life, prays daily, and while it keeps her on the straight and narrow, it hasn't unfortunately cured her of narcissism or granted her empathy. She's still empty and hollow but her religious practice seems to give her solace.
I'll out myself here as someone who very much believes in but does not understand the Holy Spirit. I am deeply grateful for the healing that is accessed through prayers to Jesus Christ even if I am unsure as to whether there is external power or simply the placebo effect working for me. My Christian faith is my last and best defense against the nihilistic despair that descends whenever I contemplate how horrible some people can be and the inherent unfairness of the inequality of life circumstances people experience. Having something to put faith in- that there is some sort of ultimate good that is served when I deny short term gratification to act in my own and others long term interest is enormously helpful.
DeleteHi, to address the first reply nothing external led me to "religion". None of my family or friends are "religious". I put the words religious and religion in quotes, not to patronize you or make light of your question, but to emphasize the point that all man made religions, institutions and places of worship are a sham, you can not reach God through them.
DeleteThis is what Jesus said in John 14:16
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
So you don't worship and pray to another man (like the pope) or a piece of wood or metal shaped into a cross or imitation of Jesus (Idoltory). You don't ask for forgiveness off or through another man, like a priest.
The only way to curing yourself of this horrible condition, and ultimately having eternal life is through Lord Jesus Christ. You have to build a personal relationship with him.
And to address the second point, the Media in the Western World is owned by people who follow Satanic doctrines, so I think using the internet to try to reach people is the best way, this message will only help people who have already been reached already somehow by Jesus Christ, because he is the one that chooses us, but we have to accept the gift ourselves, as one of our blessings is free will. I would also advise you and others to completely stop watching Television and to avoid as much sinful influences in your life as possible.
Television is the worst because it doesn't matter how clued up you are on their tricks and tactics they use to put sinful thoughts and urges in our minds, because watching Television bypasses our conscious mind and programs our subconscious mind, the only way you can defend against this evil is by not watching it. Here is an article explaining how your mind is programmed while you are watching television:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_matrix11.htm
Machiavellianempath, I was in your situation too once, I believed in him but I was too weak (Spiritually) to give in to Jesus Christ and accept that I had a evil mind that needed curing. That I had led a sinful live devoid of love and goodness. My biggest break through was when I said the Lords Prayer, every day for 10 days straight, to do this required great humbleness on my part, as a Psychopath it was not an easy thing to do, but I done it because I realized how empty I was, and that my life was pointless. So if I could offer any advise it would to be, say the Lords Prayer as often was possible, it will get easier with time as you grow , the Holy Spirit's influence will grow in you, I can literally feel it when I pray and after I pray.
Here is another good, shorter article on TV:
Deletehttp://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/illuminati/svali2_15.htm
Cartoons, Sports, Movies, Sitcoms, the News, adverts. It doesn't matter folks, anything can be and often is to make us think sinful thoughts. The vast majority of TV programming causes Lust, desensitization to violence , anger, fear, ignorance, greed etc It also programmes us to relate with each other in an unnatural, damaging way.
The deception runs deep, go and research it for yourselves if you are unsure. Take a break from it for a month and see if you feel different.
Hey Machiavellianempath,
DeleteYou wrote, "My Christian faith is my last and best defense against the nihilistic despair that descends whenever I contemplate how horrible some people can be and the inherent unfairness of the inequality of life circumstances people experience. Having something to put faith in- that there is some sort of ultimate good that is served when I deny short term gratification to act in my own and others long term interest is enormously helpful."
Have you considered that because God is all powerful and all-knowing, all that stuff that brings you despair (and even the fact that you despair) is due to God. God is entirely in control.
Babies dying with AIDS? God did that.
Millions of babies dying in India, and going straight to hell to suffer everlasting damnation because they never received Jesus? God made that happen again.
Step-fathers getting drunk and having sex with their step-daughters, who then feel turned on, but also ashamed?
God did all that. He wanted it exactly that way - because that's how it is, and everything is exactly how God wanted it. And he wanted you to be disgusted and horrified by it too, and confused.
The fact that you're reading this, having whatever emotional reaction you're having - God did that, again.
When you pray to what you think is God, because you're bothered with some aspect of his creation, that's him tying you up in knots, because He's that sort of an asshole.
Some Christians will blame Satan or other angels (C.S. Lewis) for evil in the world. But people who understand their Christian theology can see that since God is all powerful (he made Satan and the angels), it is all according to his will.
This is the Calvinist understanding - and probably the most psychopathic, along the lines of Stoicism.
I don't believe in God, and don't really want to wade into the middle of a religious discussion, but since I grew up in a Christian family who attended a Presbyterian denomination and believed in Calvinist doctrine, this is actually kind of interesting to me. ME likes to talk about the nurture aspects of developing sociopathy... I wonder if early exposure to this kind of determinist religious doctrine might have had some effect on the way I perceived things and how my mind developed? I did later find a lot of appeal in Stoicism and Buddhism.
Deletehaving the power to control an outcome means there is also the power to abstain from acting and let natural consequences of laws that govern our physical reality play out.
DeleteIt's also possible that the things you describe above are manifestations of bad choices and natural disasters that are allowed to occur because it is not a suffering free existence that is the ultimate goal of an intelligent Creator. Rather, suffering (in its many forms) is a crucible that can (but does not always) move our collective humanity forward. Suffering is the impetus for change and continued evolution, however that may look.
An all powerful God is certainly powerful enough to short circuit His need to micromanage His Creation. Installing the capacity for free will in humans (and possibly other sentient beings as well) is an elegant solution that allows Creation to be (at least partially, and for a time) self sustaining.
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Delete^ Calvinism theology fucked me up real good. I steer away from any patriarchal belief system where women and girls are drilled submission & taught to sit under a man and not side by side preaching inequality. What you described, I really get. And ask those questions all the time. Well stated. Religion can be one of the most fucked up forms of spiritual abuse. I still do hope in a God and a Jesus.... but I keep a real simple faith. The systematical structured church scene is by far, the most hypocritical dogmatic place known to me. Maybe my perception is skewed a lot, or a little... but nonetheless my reality that I experienced with my father in law. My husband broke free as a teen.. and they kicked him out of the home for not following the doctrines of grace...Calvinism. Those parables that Christ taught represent nothing of Calvinism. It's a hoax.
Deletewho says that Jesus Christ and the mainstream expressions of Christianity are in alignment? Jesus Christ is anti-establishment. In fact, I think he'd take down many megachurch pastors with the same zeal he denounced the Pharisees. Religion isn't God. Religion is a human expression of a particular way of relating to a perceived deity.
DeleteI grew up within a super conservative Christian household and got married at 20 and was a baby machine until the age of 28. Leaving that world behind as a single mom of 4 at 32 was the hardest thing I have ever done. But the wonderful irony- I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit far more now than I ever did then. I won't overelaborate on my experiences except to say that my faith is at the center of my life and I do believe Jesus Christ was divine in a way no other human being has been. I don't understand it, but there's a sort of unconscious knowing that I identify as coming from the same God who Jesus identifies with. Beyond saying that I have no desire to identify with any of the dogma that modern day Christianity is associated with. I abhor the hatefulness with which the gay community is treated. There's rampant anti intellectualism and as a woman who escaped domestic violence, I would never raise my daughters to accept mistreatment and domination the way I did for many years.
As for Revelation- who knows what the hell it means. I guess I just put it in a box of "the metaphors I don't understand but that's ok because they have no bearing on my life today- maybe I'll figure them out should they seem more relevant". The bible didn't even exist until the fourth century when a bunch of men gathered for the council of Nicea. This fledgling religion existed for 3 centuries just fine without the bible. In fact, when Jesus left he said he's leave the Holy Spirit as "the comforter". He made no reference to a future collection of documents written by men, many of those men being of questionable character and mental health. That's not to say that the bible isn't important, just that modern Christianity (esp protestantism) worships the bible in a way that really seems quite different from what Jesus actually preached. Jesus was all about "grace" not the "law". The legalistic obsession with a singular, literal interpretation of a document that is internally inconsistent does not strike me as the perfect reflection of Christ's enduring legacy.
I have no desire to proselytize anyone on this site but I also have no desire to hide the fact that my faith in and submission to the ideals that Jesus Christ verbalized is the cornerstone of my identity. That's a more than a little ironic, I know, given that I am also interested in Sociopathworld and most Christians I know would think that was a contradiction. I don't though. I get a huge kick out of who Jesus preferred to hang out with- the tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers and Samaritans. He was all set with the self righteous religious leaders. My hunch is that He liked the authenticity of the company he kept, much as I love the candor and exchange of ideas I see here on SW. Now I'd never go so far as to call this a "Holy" group, I am continually moved by the breadth of human experiences, mystery, and self confrontation that occurs on this site. I firmly believe that God is in all things, including this dialogue and is a living, organic force that informs all of our realities. But beyond that I am still trying to figure out what comes next.
@ Anon 8:59 AM - Cured Psychopath
DeleteGiven that all the literature says psychopathy is incurable, what you've experienced is nothing short of a miracle. Are you not even slightly curious as to whether there is a medical explanation for your cure, and if it could it be made available to others?
@ Anon 9:54 AM
God did not bring about the scenarios you mention. Man did. He created us in his image and likeness but gave us free will and the time and space to self-correct until judgment day.
I don't watch TV because it's too bloody boring for the most part and I prefer to read. I do, however, watch the occasional box set. I wonder if the high school teachers of America have started thinking, 'bugger this working two jobs, I'm off to cook crystal meth with Walter White'. Seriously though, does anyone think the story of his descent into crime would edge anyone towards thinking it a feasible option?
DeleteAs for the media in general, I believe nothing I read in the newspapers. Celebrity is wasted on me; anyone who has had any involvement with a psychopath is only all too aware all that glisters is not gold.
@ Machiavellianempath
DeleteI hope your daughters know how lucky they are to have you, a mother with an inquiring mind. My own mother swallowed the religious dogma hook, line and sinker and bullied me into accepting it too. For a long time, I've been on the fence about God but lately I got a sign suggesting I may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
To the person two posts above me, seeing as I never had a MRI scan, prior to my transformation, that is an impossibility, I don't have physical proof. I can't proof to anybody I was a psychopath, most people who know me well wouldn't even be interested, you can choose to believe me or not, but if yourself are a psychopath then I ask you a question... What do you have to lose by praying ?
DeleteI do get all that your saying Mach. You describe it very well. You clearly see the true representation of Jesus Christ. Me and hubs don't fit into any of these mega church scenes either. In fact my husband and I left his family and religion years ago. Him as a teen and me later on in our marriage. My husband warned me to not to mix into their brain washed doctrine. We've all been stamped as rebellious heathens and disowned for the sake of their ludicrous doctrine. My husband has always been a believer of equality and women rights. Even though we both, together, chose to have a big family. He has always went against his father's doctrine and it cost them a healthy father/son relationship. He knows it was not the true representation of the gospel. You've been through lots Mach and you're right, your Christ was a divine corner stone in your past experiences that you endured - and continues to be. :)
Delete@ Anon - Cured Psychopath
Delete"you can choose to believe me or not, but if yourself are a psychopath then I ask you a question... What do you have to lose by praying ?"
I believe you. But if I were you I would want to contribute to a cure for others if possible beyond spreading the word on the internet, which is a good start.
I'm an empath and pray once in a while, probably agnostic, but putting out feelers in the direction of God.
@ Superchick
DeleteYou are lucky to have a husband whose values chime with your own. Did Jesus play any part in bringing you together - did you pray to meet him or did it just happen?
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Delete@ 1:41. I was his neighbour for few years when I was 19. Then a few years later, I was working at the psych unit hospital. The other student nurse who was on my floor starting talking about her church. I told her I was going to check it out and he was there. I've also known him before when my brother in law and him were in alcoholics anonymous together 18 years ago. My SO almost drank himself to death because of the anger he held towards his parents, specially his dad. He said he had to forgive them, specially his dad for being very strict & hard with him when they were practicing Mennonites. A few years later - after that - they switched to practicing the Calvanist doctrine. Women are devalued & subjected to second class citizenship in both doctrines. And my SO was treated unfairly.
DeleteOnce he learnt to master that ( forgive them)...he said he was free. But still to this day, his father has never apologized, and hides behind his theology books and feels justified. My husband has accepted that he will never receive an apology from him. You don't have no power to change anyone, accept yourself, and how you react to the situation. He accepted that his folks are intolerant and very rigid in their ways and have disowned him because of a doctrine. Religion had changed them into that. My SO learnt a lots of coping skills in group, and led AA groups. I admired his leadership skills, and his strong work ethic. And him giving jobs to families in need when we ran the forest business awhile back. We enjoy each other's company and we just work very well together. I can share anything with him. And his care and love for me does not waiver, it stays consistent. My husband has always been very moderate in his views, and he shows this to his children. What he never received from his father, he makes sure he shows that to his children, he promised himself he'd never be hard and strict like his father was to him. He's very interactive with his children. It's what he lives for.
I'm a liberal, and my in laws are hyper- right wing conservatives that follow the 5 point calvinist ways. The doctrines of grace. And if you don't believe in them - your going to hell and your cut off from their little world. My SO & I don't go to church anymore. This past Easter we did go check out a church where we live here. They do preach equality of the sexes. And women do preach up at the pulpit. We do live far out rural and it's more for the children if we plan to go for future use. We could do without it. I sometimes wonder if I'm heading towards being Agnostic. I have not prayed for a few years. Then I think I'm crazy for questioning it all. I just like the Christ of the parables. That's about it. Opening up a bible word be a little foreign to us now. Lol.
@ E.A. 3:13 - Bullshit !
DeleteAnonymousMay 6, 2014 at 1:38 PM
DeleteI would like to help people, but I understand the limits of my capabilities. I don't have physical proof, and as I said in a previous post, Satanic forces have a monopoly on the internet. Jesus told us that the battle in this world is a spiritual one, therefore I think it is best to pray for both myself and other people, to try to reach people on the internet (though I realize that by doing this, the best I can hope to be is one of God's tools, because Jesus has to have already reached out to a person for them to initially become aware of his presence) and to help people in real life. I think the most important thing is to pray and resist sin as much as possible. First you have to help yourself, to help other people.
*Satanic forces have an monopoly on the Media.
DeleteThe answers are within us.
ReplyDeleteWe had all of the answers, all along.
It's religion and science (though religion and science are essentially the same thing) that tells you otherwise.
But this doesn't change the fact that we are mere pawns in the larger scheme of things.
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ReplyDeleteI don't know if I have an answer to what a healthy outlet might be- but I also question that the rush you are feeling is simply sadism. It strikes me as being an emotional release. It's true that you might be cruel and destructive in the moment but from how you describe (being ascetic and controlled most of the time and then engaging in the thrill of releasing rage through physical violence I am not fully convinced that you are motivated to be cruel for the sake of being cruel. Am I missing something?
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DeleteThe facts that you delay your gratification by choosing where to release your rage and that you seem to engage in regular reaction formation that enables you to consciously choose to do the opposite of your first impulse suggests you are definitely on the prosocial end of sociopathy (if that's how you self identify). The amount of internal pressure must be enormous, particularly if you don't have the fear circuitry the average empath brain has to keep your behavior in check. It sounds like you very actively fight against your own destructive impulses. I can imagine the ecstatic moment you feel as being similar to that of a person who has regular sexual desire but has chosen celibacy as a life path for religious reasons might experience if they allowed a few moments of sexual release to satisfy years of pent up desire. There's no shame in admitting the joy that comes from momentary release that is the result of self imposed suffering. I think that's a regular part of the human experience.
DeleteErik Anderson, the best thing would be to get to solve the root of the problem instead of choosing on how to direct the anger in what you think is a more constructive way. Having rage towards other people isn't helpful to anybody including yourself, wrath is from the Devil, not from God. I used to be like that until I turned to Jesus. Now I rarely hate anybody and if I do it soon goes away with prayer.
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Delete@ Erik
Delete"Maybe the best term to describe my base state is motivational anhedonia. Occasionally I'm stricken by the desire to desire something"
What were your parents like when you were growing up - was your main care giver super-controlling, dictating what you got and the terms on which you got it? If so, you probably learned not to desire. I'm not a shrink but I imagine that could be reversed.
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DeleteOk... I haven't a clue what might be going on so. Were you well behaved by nature or were you trying to keep the peace, keep your head down? Was one of your parents depressed? Did you feel loved and adored? When did you stop desiring things? A lot of questions I know - at your leisure!
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Delete" I accepted then that the things I desired most, I could not have."
DeleteThis is key. Why? Where did this learned helplessness originate, what made you think you could not have them? Can you remember a couple of things you desired at that time but could not have. What were they? Have you ever been diagnosed with anything, Aspergers or such? Have you been in therapy, and if so, how did it go? (Is that you in your picture?)
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DeleteI wonder if you have more of an avoidant personality style than an antisocial one. You seem like a highly ethical person and I bet you are quite pleasant even if you are hurting inside. I doubt that you make a spectacle of yourself.
DeleteErik Anderson, I think you are a psychopath. It doesn't mean that you are evil. It doesn't mean that you don't have a soul. It means that you have a seared conscience, you can feel love but it only relates to yourself, that is why you can't love anybody else and nobody else can love you. Lock yourself in an empty room for a few days, with only water, no food, no external stimuli except 4 walls and a bed, only then will you see how empty you are, that you are merely a robot-like being that has developed a persona from a lifetime of external stimula. First you have to see how you are nothing, only then will you want to change. Without the ability to connect with other people you will live a meaningless and lonely existence.
DeleteNo medication or therapy can cure a seared conscience, only Jesus can fix this.
And remember being a Psychopath isn't special, it's a curse, there are millions of other out there who suffer just like you. Deep down you do suffer, that is why you are on here, you are searching for answers. It took me 4 years of self-enforced isolation and deep-thinking (along with thousands of hours on the internet reading) to even realize I was a psychopath, self-actualization is the trickiest part. Good luck.
DeleteNonsense, Erik is no psychopath. There's a fundamental decency about him that psychopaths don't have.
DeleteSo going back a little.... you were promised money, no! You earned money - that money was yours - and you didn't fight for it. You were probably too young. Where were the adults to help you fight for what was yours? No wonder you gave up. Disillusionment set it. You're still young, you have everything to play for. Start fighting for the things that matter to you.
I agree with 3:19, Erik.
DeleteAs a fundamentally gentle person the hardest thing I have ever had to learn was how to protect myself from exploitation. But I had to, or I wouldn't be here today. As much as everyone talks about karma I don't think it works that way. Just being compliant generally leads to poor outcomes long term. It also leads to a lot of repressed rage that morphs into anhedonia. If the money can still be reclaimed, fight for it. If it can't, have an attorney draft a letter officially requesting it with a summation of your story so you have written documentation down the road. It might come in handy.
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DeleteDestruction is a form of transformation. Who is to say that the ultimate end is not superior to the original form?
ReplyDeleteIndiscriminate destruction is how a lazy/cowardly person feels important. For people like this- it's too risky to pour energy into creating something and then be vulnerable to dismay when your creation is destroyed. So power is achieved by tearing the best efforts of others down.
Only when the confidence in ones own abilities to create rises above a certain threshold is the impulse to destroy mitigated. That being said, I don't think the impulse to destroy ever fully leaves us. We are competitive by nature and want to win. But when we are more confident, we are less threatened by others efforts and more interested in fighting our own mediocrity rather than in bringing others down to our level.
M.E. uses a lot more question marks than they used to in these posts. Also, the posts seem to be more and more about gathering information about the audience, which feels a little weird.
ReplyDeleteMy world is a sad world
ReplyDeleteOften wonder if there's blame
Such a fool in a mad mad world
With no picture in my frame
Everyone says crazy fool
You're always gazing at the night
With my arms around the tree
Loving life with all my might
Crazy as I may seem
Not knowing what to do
Living with one crazy dream
In a frantic world of blue
I awake every evening
And somehow stumble through the night
Such a fool in a mad world
Loving life with all my might
My world is a sad world
Often wondered if there's blame
Such a fool in a mad mad world
With no picture in my frame
Loving you without a name
With no love,
N'or no one to blame.
did you write this? I think this could be a powerfully haunting song with the right melody.
DeleteNo lol it was written by Charles Manson you can find it on youtube I'm sure. It's really good.
Deleteits called "My World"
DeleteGreat melody.
DeleteTell us about yourself TMAC, for starters where did you come up with that name. Are you a mister or missus MSHAK?
DeleteOH I just noticed this post now after you wrote that. In Jr High I was good at basketball so the guys called me TMAC. and then umm then the twins alwasy call me TMAC MSHAK, or T'mackin' M'shakin'... I didn't come up with it.. I'm genderless I think or both. But like I'm a girl and I like girls. Did I answer your question? What else would you like to know?
DeleteReally, I had you pegged as a guy, lol! Cool name. I'd like a name so as not to be forever Anon but can't settle on one. Just as well I'm not naming a baby :)
Deleteit will change to something new when I get tired of this one.
DeleteI doubt if socios really can feel sadness?
ReplyDeleteThey feel emptiness. At least sadness passes, emptiness is forever.
DeleteEveryone can feel sadness.
DeleteI am emptiness itself. That's WHO I am.
DeleteThat's funny, I just cross-posted asking you to tell us about yourself :)
DeleteEmptiness is feeling that something was spilled that was once there. That is a symptom of bipolar or borderline.
DeleteNot necessarily. Emptiness can just be emptiness. Nothing there from here to eternity.
DeleteI have never felt emptiness myself, as a bipolar. I have felt like I didn't want to live, but not empty.
DeleteSome psychoactive drugs and mod stabilizers do suck the joy out of things and make you feel apathetic.
emptiness can also be a cover for pain you are not in a good place to process. It's a survival mechanism, kind of like being in shock. A pretty common reaction to complex PTSD. Despite being a woman who has a typical amount of emotions, I spent the first year after my divorce unable to cry, even if I wanted to. I couldn't feel happy. I was just blah. The only thing that finally helped me cry was when I started painting. Then the tears would come. I read somewhere that creativity helps with trauma symptoms. It certainly brought me back to life.
DeleteBy emptiness I mean nothingness.. like you know... pure infinite potential.
Deletelike a blank sheet of paper.
DeleteI think some of you may be talking about apathy. Which is a problem ya.
DeleteBut like its not a bad thing lol. Empty is good you want to be empty.
ReplyDeleteClinically depressed person rationalizes that they feel empty because they are a psychopath. Lol. You could have your amygdala removed and you wouldn't feel "empty".
DeleteSo with what does a person fill themselves that they may feel 'full', as opposed to feeling 'empty'?
DeleteWell I am not sure why you would want to be full... but usually most people are full of shit.
DeleteYou're trolling, aren't you?
DeleteYes, yes, that must be it.
It can't possibly be that you're this much of an idiot.
"So with what does a person fill themselves that they may feel 'full', as opposed to feeling 'empty'?"
DeleteLove. Only by praying to Jesus Christ can you attain this.
You're old.
DeleteYou want to get back to emptiness/blank/void. That is our true state.
ReplyDeletecuz otherwize its just garbage.
ReplyDeleteSociopathy without narcissistic or sadistic motivators devolves into a parasitic lifestyle ruled by impulses. Or a situation where narcissistic and sadistic supply is too easily attained.
ReplyDeleteI have narcissistic motivators they've helped me immensely. I'm confused about my sadism though.
DeleteI think sociopathic actions are a symptom of feeling out of sync with humanity/culture. But is it possible that these symptoms are most likely to flare up when the sociopath isn't engaged in a life they derive meaning from?
DeleteIn a lot of ways it's quite difficult to be bright- not so much cognitively gifted in a mensa kind of way (although it does correlate) but bright in a "see connections others don't see" kind of way. Why? Because the mainstream is dumb, loud and persistent. Having these insights is maddening because there is no way to constructively apply them.
So- sociopaths act out in a destructive fashion of a mix of frustration and boredom and because they can usually get away with it act out in an antisocial manner. One of the best portrayals of a smart kid who acts like a sociopath I've ever seen was Will in Good Will Hunting. The script is truly brilliant because it shows just how hard it is to be on a different wavelength than peers. It's lonely but at the same time feels safer than letting people in who might let you down.
I think there are a lot of people on this website who are more likely to be alienated smart kids (not a little smart, but 3-4 standard deviations from the mean level smart). There's not enough of a challenge to consistently remember to apply yourself and be a suck up but the lack of consistency works against you with authority figures. You are so tired of being ignored and having people do the wrong thing - there is no pleasure in saying "I told you so" because you're beyond hoping that they would listen anyway.
All this generalized angst, emptiness and nihilism is a serious bummer so I can understand wanting to do something extreme just to break free. But that usually just complicates things in a very bad way down the road.
So here's a suggestion if you are wondering if you are a sociopath. (You may be, you may not- if you feel the way I've described above, just bear with me) If you want to escape the emptiness, try creating something instead. Or try investing in someone else's well being. You may surprise yourself with what happens next. The key is- break up the congealing despair by trying something new.
As your brain matures it will get easier. Smart brains are more prone to depression and in some cases take longer to mature. (late 20's all the way to 41 for full maturity depending on study) Age helps mellow you. It will not always feel this way, especially if you keep moving long enough not to get so antsy that you have to do something antisocial to blow off steam. Blow off the steam sooner and just remind yourself:
a regular person would go a little nuts if the rest of society was populated with people who had Down syndrome IQ. It would be very isolating. That's kind of what you are going through if you are really smart- so cut yourself slack.
A lot of this rings true with me.
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DeleteYou absolutely can- and should- call yourself intelligent if it's true (not just because you got praised for everything as a child). It's false modesty to do otherwise and I won't even get into the whole narcissistic/parasitic/underachiever dynamic other than to say: DON'T GO THERE.
DeleteIf you are smart you don't have to brag. You can quietly recognize that you are wired to string facts together in ways most other people don't. It doesn't make you a more valuable human being, it just means that you have the equivalent of 20/20 vision in a world full of people with 20/100. The fact they perceive lights as having halos and all trees and bushes as impressionist paintings does not mean you have to pretend that you see those things the same way. In fact, it's not helpful at all if you do that- it's a waste of a fine mind that could be put to use more effectively.
The problem isn't in accepting the facts. It's assuming you are more worthy of respect because you are smart. You're not. You have something to add to the world just as the down syndrome kid does. They probably give better hugs ;)
I would say that a sociopath without narcissism or sadism is comparable to Schizoid Personality Disorder.
ReplyDeleteI'm a schizoid myself, and, like the sociopath, I have a lack of affective empathy and blunted emotional affect.
Unlike the sociopath, I don't find pleasure in... Much of anything, really. I'm extremely apathetic, probably as a result of this.
I'm incredibly asocial, and have very few friends. I don't bother with making a 'mask' in social situations, and people have described me as 'cold', 'emotionless' and 'Spock' (autistic people are sometimes described as being like this, interestingly) . I don't have any hobbies besides surfing the internet at home. I'm not ambitious, don't desire power over others, and mostly just want to get through my day with as little hassle as possible. I'm very passive, not vocal with my opinions (if I even bother to form them), and utterly non-impulsive. I wouldn't disagree with being compared to an automaton.
Something of note; while I am generally indifferent to people, I wouldn't say I am amoral, and would even say that I have a rather strong grasp of right and wrong. Although, whether this is merely me adopting morality out of convenience and lack of will to actively defy preestablished rules, rather than a natural abhorrence to people suffering, is up for debate.
Also, comparing SPD and ASPD is probably like comparing apples and oranges, but whatever. Food for thought.
I think people put to much importance in labels, which are made by other Human Beings who have flaws too. A shizoid person is basically a Psychopath, it's the same thing, a seared conscience, an inability to love and connect with other people, it's just that the media depicts Psychopaths as all being evil and sadistic, when in reality everybody on this board knows that the vast majority of Psychopathic people aren't innately sadistic. And the Psychopaths that are sadistic, manipulative etc often developed this side to them because of environmental circumstances when growing up.
DeleteOnce being a Pyschopath myself, I suspect that if I weren't brought up in a loving home, and was instead brought up in cruel/unloving manner, I could have ended up being a monster. Nature and Nurture are clearly both factors in who we all are. If a sadistic Psychopath wants to change, then the first thing they have to do is realize and accept that it isn't their fault how they are, and try to forgive everybody who has wronged them in their lives, this will make their anger go and then they will have the chance to change.
Hi Machiavellianempath, I enjoy reading your posts. I like the way you express yourself..
ReplyDelete
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