“once I gave up the hunt for villains, I had little recourse but to take responsibility for my choices ...Needless to say, this is far less satisfying that nailing villains. It also turned out to be more healing in the end.”
What would happen if decent men just "lowered their guard" against smiling wicked folks coming to debase them & suck them dry like vampires in glib disguise..?
Well, it would certainly speed up the process and lighten my workload considerably. I for one am in full support of your proposal. My disguise is not 'glib' though. Its one of my only sincere aspects.
I once googled the term "über empath" and found myself on a blog where the owner was lamenting her time on this blog and the other empaths were consoling her. It was a true festival of victim empowerment. More like a scrum really. Lots of piling on...and crystals. Lots of crystals.
Wait, do people really hold grudges against people they perceive to have harmed them? Seek retribution? Pursue justice?
I only concern myself with the actions of others if I believe them to be capable of harming those who cannot protect themselves. I am not powerless in any situation. If I am hurt, it's because I didn't have a method to mitigate the damage. There is no more effective teacher than pain.
The point being that there is no choice in the involvement with a psychopath. They lure people in using a false front - hence there is no free will, no genuine consent, just a confidence trick. Stop trying to shunt the blame onto the target for being fooled by lies.
This is SW at its worst. At its best, it engages honestly with the issues in an attempt to forge a way ahead.
I urge you to consider the difference between culpability and responsibility. If you are fooled by a sociopath, are you to blame for being used, abused, and hurt? No! Absolutely not. You are not culpable.
I'm going to use a little play on words to illustrate the difference between responsibility and culpability. Break responsibility down into two words. Response-able, meaning that when faced with a given situation, you recognize that you are able to mount a response to that situation.
So, if you or someone you know has encountered a sociopath and been harmed by them, accepting responsibility gives you control. It empowers you. You may have been taken in once, but in evaluating your experience you will find that there were clues that went over your head. If you had the necessary knowledge, you could have prevented yourself from being hurt. You are blameless, and in learning from your experience, next time you won't be helpless.
This seems so incredibly clear to me, the meaning of the post and its purpose. Am I wrong here? If so, what am I missing? Could you help me to reach your level of understanding, as I've tried to help you reach mine?
There is choice, and with choice you have free will. You consent by allowing it to happen. The real crux is in recognizing and identifying the manipulation, which comes from awareness. You need awareness to make the choices available to you. Before you can use a computer, for whatever the function, you need to turn it on first. And being aware is on you. Healthy skepticism and assessment of what is said/done along with intent gives you awareness.
What's wrong with the quote? If you believe it is a manipulation, you are already aware of it, and you have made the choice to reject it. If it is not a manipulation, then you are concerning yourself over nothing. Either way, it is neither the worst nor best of SW. It just exists, like real life.
By the way, the warning label is clearly on the tin when you are on the site. Acting offended is superfluous. If a nun enters a brothel with a giant neon "XXX" sign, what did she expect?
I think some people can only engage with this site from their point of view as a victim. We are responsible for what we do, but we aren't responsible for what we are.
@ Erik -- You are splitting hairs. The usual interpretation of responsible is: 'liable to be called to account as the primary cause' ie answerable, but I take your point. I am answerable to myself when I am taken in by BS but I am not the primary cause of the injury sustained. I like your distinction all the same.
@ Bob -- Where did I say I was offended?
@ HierBot -- Most people engage with this site in an attempt to understand, which by definition requires an open mind.
You gave a command statement in frustration, and noted the site at being at its worst. Hence the offense.
Which isn't discounting the offense - you found the use of the quote offensive, that exists. But at the same time, you can't expect to act in shock and outrage. It was on the sign on the way in, so potentially offensive material is expected. And you're not naive to it, as this is your first time to the site. What ME wrote is par for the course.
@ Bob -- I didn't find the quote in the least offensive, I was simply calling BS on it. How on earth could I comment on SW at its best or its worst if I were a newcomer to the site? I've probably been here longer than you.
@ Erik -- " If you are fooled by a sociopath, are you to blame for being used, abused, and hurt? No! Absolutely not. You are not culpable."
Are you saying here: you are not culpable but you are responsible? What does refusal to take responsibility look like - what kinds of statements are made by people who refuse to take responsibility for being fooled by a sociopath?
It seems pointless to rail against sociopaths on a site dedicated to understanding them better. What you view as an attempt to shunt blame onto the victim, I see as an aphorism for how sociopaths can take their own share of responsibility. Narcissism can easily lead one to view their own failures as the villainous work of others.
If you don't accept that you played into the sociopath's hands, how will you prevent it from happening again? Denying responsibility means saying you could not have done anything different. You could have been more cautious, maybe a little cunning. He held the knife, but you let him get close enough to stab you with it. Not culpable, not to blame, but you unknowingly played a part. You share responsibility.
*Not* your first time. That was a typo. It is not your first time, so you can't be naive to it (to not be naive because it was your first time makes no sense).
And Erik's reiteration is correct. It's not up to a sociopath to protect you from manipulation - only you can.
Jus saw the tweet on corporate feminists...yep thank god for female sociopaths :):):):) Helps what I'm passionate about (obtaining true gender equality) regardless of whether the female sociopath feels she's a feminist or not.
@246: Because what they might read, comment, or critique about it on the internet provides a false sense of what a real example is really like until they speak with them in person. It's because they are interpreting everything based on their own preconceptions of what it should be, versus what it really is.
For example, if Erik and I were to bump into each other and chat (without knowing ahead of time of our meet) we probably wouldn't recognize each other from conversing because both Erik and I have tuned our recognition to what we perceived of each other online (or to parallel the author, from ME's book and blog). Hence the surprise. It's psychology.
" One doesn't take a journey into the Himalayas without a guide who knows the ancient paths."
Having been burned by a sociopath, I understand the risk. I'm not likely to make the same mistake again. My awareness is heightened, and I tread with caution.
So I woke up just now at 3, made myself a burrito (with added pizza squeeze and parmasean) and pepsi for breakfast... and now I'm bout to head to my Mom's place to help her clean for my grandma who is flying out from BC in a few days for my birthday this year.
If there is ever a villain it is me. Just usually I would deny it.
Most likely there are many intelligent & disciplined psychopathic individuals which share the empaths aversion against "the classic socio" and their low-intense war declaration against the world? Some choose to be good, even if their inner compass point in another direction. These are decent men. Actions/deeds determines whether someone is good or bad. And many classic psychopaths should be considered unfit for prison due to mental illness; the rules concerning this seem very dated. Folks ruled by gory fantasies and urges are unsane, in the grip of powerful unseen forces.
Meaningless as "feel good"-stimulant perhaps for renegade-psychos (socios preferring the empath world), but everyone has individual taste & intellectual ideas/political views about how things should be. And even then ego plays a part: wise men, with or without conscience, realize that anarchy is the murky end-station if everyone starts behaving like "the classic psychopath". The end of civilized life.
Empathy Relating our internal state to the contact we have with objects(living or not) that may or may not be real, and possibly believing these objects have the potentiality to feel too.
I hope your happy it took me like an hour to filter out all the psychosis that surrounded this obtuse thought.
@Anon 1038- well said- and it begs the question- what separates empathy from anthropomorphism (which I understand to be a derogatory term) now that scientific advances indicate that many species of animal are sentiment beings capable of an emotional range similar to our own. Empathy is generally considered positive, but anthropomorphism is considered sentimental and self referential- not positive at all.
Anthropromorphism is a mental tool used in conceiving something. Because of how the brain processes concepts - it associates and links something with an existing like neighbor (it finds patterns and relations already stored in memory, and connects them) - you get a lot of attributes from one thing bleeding into another. This happens naturally. It also means that it influences perceptions, because you are trying to relate it (since that is known).
It's where the colloquialism "When you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail." comes from.
Barbara brown Taylor is wise. But if you only heal, you are still a victim. What is so great about being a victim? Learn from experience. Use the experience, and the villain, to help you grow and make you stronger and to enjoy your life even more.
You are responsible for who you are, by what you do. To make it simple stealing makes you a thief. Blame shifting does not change the facts. So, the devil made you do it, makes you irresponsible.
How To Stop A Divorce And Save Your Marriage?(Dr.Brave).
Hello to every one out here, am here to share the unexpected miracle that happened to me three days ago, My name is Jeffrey Dowling,i live in TEXAS,USA.and I`m happily married to a lovely and caring wife,with two kids A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my wife so terrible that she took the case to court for a divorce she said that she never wanted to stay with me again,and that she did not love me anymore So she packed out of my house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get her back,after much begging,but all to no avail and she confirmed it that she has made her decision,and she never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my wife So i explained every thing to her,so she told me that the only way i can get my wife back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for her too So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow her advice. Then she gave me the email address of the spell caster whom she visited.(bravespellcaster@gmail.com}, So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address she gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my wife back the next day what an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my wife who did not call me for the past seven {7}months,gave me a call to inform me that she was coming back So Amazing!! So that was how she came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and she apologized for her mistake,and for the pain she caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, i will advice you out there to kindly email this wonderful man {bravespellcaster@gmail.com},i f you are in any condition like this,or you have any problem related to "bringing your ex back. So thanks to Dr Brave for bringing back my wife,and brought great joy to my family once again.{bravespellcaster@gmail.com}, Thanks..
My name is yurich jerry am from USA. i want to use this opportunity to thank my great doctor who really made my life a pleasurable one today. This great man DR.Ogboni brought my husband back to me, i had three lovely kids for my husband, about four years ago i and my husband has been into one quarrel or the other until he finally left me for one lady. i felt my life was over and my kids thought they would never see their father again. i tried to be strong just for the kids but i could not control the pains that torments my heart, my heart was filled with sorrows and pains because i was really in love with my husband. Every day and night i think of him and always wish he would come back to me, until one day i met a good friend of mine that was also in a situation like me but her problem was her ex-boyfriend who she had an unwanted pregnancy for and he refused to take responsibility and dumped her. she told me that mine was a small case and that i should not worry about it at all, so i asked her what was the solution to my problems and she gave me this great man email address. i was doubting if this man was the solution, so i contacted this great man and he told me what to do and i deed them all, he told me to wait for just two day and that my husband will come crawling on his kneels just for forgiveness so i faithfully deed what this great man asked me to do and for sure after two days i heard a knock on the door, in a great surprise i saw him on his kneels and i was speechless, when he saw me, all he did was crying and asking me for forgiveness, from that day, all the pains and sorrows in my heart flew away,since then i and my husband and our lovely kids are happy.that's why i want to say a big thank you to DR.Ogboni spiritual temple. This great man made me to understand that there is no problem on earth that has no solution so please if you know that you have this same problem or any problem that is similar, i will advise you to come straight to this great man. you can email him at: ogbonispelitemple@hotmail.com
What would happen if decent men just "lowered their guard" against smiling wicked folks coming to debase them & suck them dry like vampires in glib disguise..?
ReplyDeleteWell, it would certainly speed up the process and lighten my workload considerably. I for one am in full support of your proposal.
DeleteMy disguise is not 'glib' though. Its one of my only sincere aspects.
Indeed. ME claims to be pro-social but this is evidence of her anti-social agenda.
DeleteCarrie
It's a real shame that these little problems still haven't solved themselves.
ReplyDeleteThe unexamined life is not worth living. Once one grasps this
ReplyDeletethey will cease blaming others for their faults.
I once googled the term "über empath" and found myself on a blog where the owner was lamenting her time on this blog and the other empaths were consoling her. It was a true festival of victim empowerment. More like a scrum really. Lots of piling on...and crystals. Lots of crystals.
ReplyDeleteWait, do people really hold grudges against people they perceive to have harmed them? Seek retribution? Pursue justice?
ReplyDeleteI only concern myself with the actions of others if I believe them to be capable of harming those who cannot protect themselves. I am not powerless in any situation. If I am hurt, it's because I didn't have a method to mitigate the damage. There is no more effective teacher than pain.
every story needs a hero
ReplyDeleteevery hero needs a villan
"take responsibility for my choices"
ReplyDeleteThe point being that there is no choice in the involvement with a psychopath. They lure people in using a false front - hence there is no free will, no genuine consent, just a confidence trick. Stop trying to shunt the blame onto the target for being fooled by lies.
This is SW at its worst. At its best, it engages honestly with the issues in an attempt to forge a way ahead.
Carrie
I urge you to consider the difference between culpability and responsibility. If you are fooled by a sociopath, are you to blame for being used, abused, and hurt? No! Absolutely not. You are not culpable.
DeleteI'm going to use a little play on words to illustrate the difference between responsibility and culpability. Break responsibility down into two words. Response-able, meaning that when faced with a given situation, you recognize that you are able to mount a response to that situation.
So, if you or someone you know has encountered a sociopath and been harmed by them, accepting responsibility gives you control. It empowers you. You may have been taken in once, but in evaluating your experience you will find that there were clues that went over your head. If you had the necessary knowledge, you could have prevented yourself from being hurt. You are blameless, and in learning from your experience, next time you won't be helpless.
This seems so incredibly clear to me, the meaning of the post and its purpose. Am I wrong here? If so, what am I missing? Could you help me to reach your level of understanding, as I've tried to help you reach mine?
There is choice, and with choice you have free will. You consent by allowing it to happen. The real crux is in recognizing and identifying the manipulation, which comes from awareness. You need awareness to make the choices available to you. Before you can use a computer, for whatever the function, you need to turn it on first. And being aware is on you. Healthy skepticism and assessment of what is said/done along with intent gives you awareness.
DeleteWhat's wrong with the quote? If you believe it is a manipulation, you are already aware of it, and you have made the choice to reject it. If it is not a manipulation, then you are concerning yourself over nothing. Either way, it is neither the worst nor best of SW. It just exists, like real life.
By the way, the warning label is clearly on the tin when you are on the site. Acting offended is superfluous. If a nun enters a brothel with a giant neon "XXX" sign, what did she expect?
I think some people can only engage with this site from their point of view as a victim. We are responsible for what we do, but we aren't responsible for what we are.
Delete@ Erik -- You are splitting hairs. The usual interpretation of responsible is: 'liable to be called to account as the primary cause' ie answerable, but I take your point. I am answerable to myself when I am taken in by BS but I am not the primary cause of the injury sustained. I like your distinction all the same.
Delete@ Bob -- Where did I say I was offended?
@ HierBot -- Most people engage with this site in an attempt to understand, which by definition requires an open mind.
Carrie
You gave a command statement in frustration, and noted the site at being at its worst. Hence the offense.
DeleteWhich isn't discounting the offense - you found the use of the quote offensive, that exists. But at the same time, you can't expect to act in shock and outrage. It was on the sign on the way in, so potentially offensive material is expected. And you're not naive to it, as this is your first time to the site. What ME wrote is par for the course.
@ Bob -- I didn't find the quote in the least offensive, I was simply calling BS on it. How on earth could I comment on SW at its best or its worst if I were a newcomer to the site? I've probably been here longer than you.
Delete@ Erik -- " If you are fooled by a sociopath, are you to blame for being used, abused, and hurt? No! Absolutely not. You are not culpable."
Are you saying here: you are not culpable but you are responsible? What does refusal to take responsibility look like - what kinds of statements are made by people who refuse to take responsibility for being fooled by a sociopath?
Carrie
@Carrie
DeleteIt seems pointless to rail against sociopaths on a site dedicated to understanding them better. What you view as an attempt to shunt blame onto the victim, I see as an aphorism for how sociopaths can take their own share of responsibility. Narcissism can easily lead one to view their own failures as the villainous work of others.
Yes, no doubt narcissism can do that. Lack of self-respect can lead one to take upon themselves failures that don't belong to them.
DeleteWhat was it about that quote that evokes for you sociopaths taking responsibility?
Btw, I don't see myself as 'railing against sociopaths'. I too am attempting to understand them, and myself, better.
Carrie
If you don't accept that you played into the sociopath's hands, how will you prevent it from happening again? Denying responsibility means saying you could not have done anything different. You could have been more cautious, maybe a little cunning. He held the knife, but you let him get close enough to stab you with it. Not culpable, not to blame, but you unknowingly played a part. You share responsibility.
Delete*Not* your first time. That was a typo. It is not your first time, so you can't be naive to it (to not be naive because it was your first time makes no sense).
DeleteAnd Erik's reiteration is correct. It's not up to a sociopath to protect you from manipulation - only you can.
@Carrie - That seems to be one of ME's themes.
DeleteJus saw the tweet on corporate feminists...yep thank god for female sociopaths :):):):) Helps what I'm passionate about (obtaining true gender equality) regardless of whether the female sociopath feels she's a feminist or not.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree that Lisbeth Salander of Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was a sociopath. She had a conscience and could be quite empathic.
DeleteCarrie
The corporate feminists author on her interaction with ME:
Delete"when I spoke to her over the phone in March, she seemed unfathomably nice, her voice shot with just the right amount of charm."
How could this come as a surprise, she must realize that charm goes with the territory.
Carrie
I agree, Lisbeth doesn't seem like a sociopath to me either.
Delete@246: Because what they might read, comment, or critique about it on the internet provides a false sense of what a real example is really like until they speak with them in person. It's because they are interpreting everything based on their own preconceptions of what it should be, versus what it really is.
DeleteFor example, if Erik and I were to bump into each other and chat (without knowing ahead of time of our meet) we probably wouldn't recognize each other from conversing because both Erik and I have tuned our recognition to what we perceived of each other online (or to parallel the author, from ME's book and blog). Hence the surprise. It's psychology.
" One doesn't take a journey into the Himalayas
ReplyDeletewithout a guide who knows the ancient paths."
Having been burned by a sociopath, I understand the risk. I'm not likely to make the same mistake again. My awareness is heightened, and I tread with caution.
So I woke up just now at 3, made myself a burrito (with added pizza squeeze and parmasean) and pepsi for breakfast... and now I'm bout to head to my Mom's place to help her clean for my grandma who is flying out from BC in a few days for my birthday this year.
ReplyDeleteIf there is ever a villain it is me. Just usually I would deny it.
Most likely there are many intelligent & disciplined psychopathic individuals which share the empaths aversion against "the classic socio" and their low-intense war declaration against the world? Some choose to be good, even if their inner compass point in another direction. These are decent men. Actions/deeds determines whether someone is good or bad. And many classic psychopaths should be considered unfit for prison due to mental illness; the rules concerning this seem very dated. Folks ruled by gory fantasies and urges are unsane, in the grip of powerful unseen forces.
ReplyDeleteWhich counters previous arguments regarding a (lack of) conscience, where doing good acts are meaningless if you lack a conscience.
DeleteMeaningless as "feel good"-stimulant perhaps for renegade-psychos (socios preferring the empath world), but everyone has individual taste & intellectual ideas/political views about how things should be. And even then ego plays a part: wise men, with or without conscience, realize that anarchy is the murky end-station if everyone starts behaving like "the classic psychopath". The end of civilized life.
DeleteEmpathy is just emotional telepathy isn't it?
ReplyDeletebelieve my trueshit:
DeleteEmpathy
Relating our internal state to the contact we have with objects(living or not) that may or may not be real, and possibly believing these objects have the potentiality to feel too.
I hope your happy it took me like an hour to filter out all the psychosis that surrounded this obtuse thought.
Okay yeah thats the objective way to look at it. yes.
DeleteVery scientific of you.
Delete@Anon 1038-
Deletewell said- and it begs the question- what separates empathy from anthropomorphism (which I understand to be a derogatory term) now that scientific advances indicate that many species of animal are sentiment beings capable of an emotional range similar to our own. Empathy is generally considered positive, but anthropomorphism is considered sentimental and self referential- not positive at all.
Anthropromorphism is a mental tool used in conceiving something. Because of how the brain processes concepts - it associates and links something with an existing like neighbor (it finds patterns and relations already stored in memory, and connects them) - you get a lot of attributes from one thing bleeding into another. This happens naturally. It also means that it influences perceptions, because you are trying to relate it (since that is known).
DeleteIt's where the colloquialism "When you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail." comes from.
Barbara brown Taylor is wise. But if you only heal, you are still a victim. What is so great about being a victim? Learn from experience. Use the experience, and the villain, to help you grow and make you stronger and to enjoy your life even more.
ReplyDeleteOldAndWise
Come play my game (Inhale, Inhale, you're the victim.)
ReplyDeleteWe're not fucking victims okay not one of us. And if we are, then we're just stupid.
ReplyDeleteYou are responsible for who you are, by what you do. To make it simple stealing makes you a thief. Blame shifting does not change the facts. So, the devil made you do it, makes you irresponsible.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteHow To Stop A Divorce And Save Your Marriage?(Dr.Brave).
Hello to every one out here, am here to share the unexpected miracle that happened to me three days ago, My name is Jeffrey Dowling,i live in TEXAS,USA.and I`m happily married to a lovely and caring wife,with two kids A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my wife so terrible that she took the case to court for a divorce she said that she never wanted to stay with me again,and that she did not love me anymore So she packed out of my house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get her back,after much begging,but all to no avail and she confirmed it that she has made her decision,and she never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my wife So i explained every thing to her,so she told me that the only way i can get my wife back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for her too So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow her advice. Then she gave me the email address of the spell caster whom she visited.(bravespellcaster@gmail.com}, So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address she gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my wife back the next day what an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my wife who did not call me for the past seven {7}months,gave me a call to inform me that she was coming back So Amazing!! So that was how she came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and she apologized for her mistake,and for the pain she caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, i will advice you out there to kindly email this wonderful man {bravespellcaster@gmail.com},i f you are in any condition like this,or you have any problem related to "bringing your ex back. So thanks to Dr Brave for bringing back my wife,and brought great joy to my family once again.{bravespellcaster@gmail.com}, Thanks..
ReplyDeleteMy name is yurich jerry am from USA. i want to use this opportunity to thank my great doctor who really made my life a pleasurable one today. This great man DR.Ogboni brought my husband back to me, i had three lovely kids for my husband, about four years ago i and my husband has been into one quarrel or the other until he finally left me for one lady. i felt my life was over and my kids thought they would never see their father again. i tried to be strong just for the kids but i could not control the pains that torments my heart, my heart was filled with sorrows and pains because i was really in love with my husband. Every day and night i think of him and always wish he would come back to me, until one day i met a good friend of mine that was also in a situation like me but her problem was her ex-boyfriend who she had an unwanted pregnancy for and he refused to take responsibility and dumped her. she told me that mine was a small case and that i should not worry about it at all, so i asked her what was the solution to my problems and she gave me this great man email address. i was doubting if this man was the solution, so i contacted this great man and he told me what to do and i deed them all, he told me to wait for just two day and that my husband will come crawling on his kneels just for forgiveness so i faithfully deed what this great man asked me to do and for sure after two days i heard a knock on the door, in a great surprise i saw him on his kneels and i was speechless, when he saw me, all he did was crying and asking me for forgiveness, from that day, all the pains and sorrows in my heart flew away,since then i and my husband and our lovely kids are happy.that's why i want to say a big thank you to DR.Ogboni spiritual temple. This great man made me to understand that there is no problem on earth that has no solution so please if you know that you have this same problem or any problem that is similar, i will advise you to come straight to this great man. you can email him at: ogbonispelitemple@hotmail.com