Sound like some of your relationships?
Here's a question, does the person who chooses to stay in a relationship with a sociopath (particularly once they realize what is going on) lose their ability to complain about it later?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
How would people react if a drug addict complained about the drug being responsible for his addiction?
ReplyDeleteIf you know someone hurts you, and if you have the structure around you to leave them, friends and family who realize what is going on, leave them. If you do not, you will ostracize yourself from your support structure. Then who will listen to your complaints?
Another song most likely written about a sociopath: Alicia Key's "I keep on falling".
ReplyDeleteSociopaths can be a drug!!!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Urdlvw0SSEc
That song originated with Jerry "iceman" Butler.
ReplyDeleteHe was a wonderful "soul singer" from the 1960's.
Among his numerous hit's was "Moon River" and "Make It Easy On
Yourself" ("Cause breaking up is so very hard to do."
But his best song with regard to a victim of a sociopath would be
"Only The Strong Survive."
Is it the sociopath's fault for being who she/he is, are or own fault
for falling for it?
See also "One Man Woman" by Paul Anka.
YES!
ReplyDeleteNo, they don't have the ability (or "right") to complain about mistreatment if you poll the perceptions of outside observers who see the partner as weak for not simply walking away. They see the partner as a moron and are unable to comprehend the web the partner has been snared in.
ReplyDeleteYes, partners very much have the right to complain if when you say ability to complain you mean capacity to understand that they have been trauma bonded to the sociopath. Problem is- no one wants to listen because they think the partner is crazy and weak for not walking away. Once this bonding as occurred they are like flies stuck to sticky paper. The slim minority who manage to wiggle free leave appendages behind and are badly mangled for a while. The others simply die because they are unable to free themselves. By die I mean- their wills have been so compromised they are like dutiful slaves until they are no longer of use and are then disposed of.
Sociopaths are smart. They provide calculated doses of narcissistic supply, insanely good sex, and some even take it so far as to employ mental tricks such as neural linguistic programming and inconsistent reinforcement to alter the mental universe of the partner to place themselves at the center of it.
For a partner who has surrendered to the passion and has been enthralled, they are literally in thrall to someone who knows how to make them self the center of the partner's existence. After a certain point, the partner's neural pathways get hijacked in the sense that all thoughts lead back to the sociopath. I suspect that's why many non sociopaths are so devastated by the breakup- because literally everything they think about leads back to the thought "my soul mate connection is broken and I am alone". That's the ultimate mind fuck.
As much as books aimed at the Kardashian loving sector of society (fifty shades series) might paint these bonds as being the ultimate in romance, there is a misperception that obsession and love are the same thing. They're not. Obsession leads to consuming the object of obsession (or being consumed yourself). Love leads to becoming a more interesting and secure person who has the comfort of knowing that the risks and adventures they dare to undertake will be balanced by a secure base of loyal affection that remains constant even if the venture is a bust.
While psychopathic bonds may seem like the most romantic thing ever, they are not. They are like an abusive parent who is intermittently entertaining and generous but who never allows a child to be anything other than their automaton. It's no wonder that kids who come out of these situations have more than a few strikes against them in their quest to develop the ability to think for themselves. Their entire existence has depended on pleasing the abusive parent rather than developing talents that they are genuinely interested in. Yet as awful as the parenting is, the child forever longs for the elusive validation that only that abusive parent can provide.
Healthy love is nothing like that. It's far less driven by hunger for drops of affection, and for that reason feels less intense. Great sex leads to a "glow" and then getting on with a productive day in a partnership of respectful equals, not a numb state of obsession and yearning for a new fix. People in healthy relationships just don't get how all encompassing a relationship with a psychopath is, and that is why there is (ironically) very little empathy for the trapped partner of the psychopath.
If you cause your sexual partner to release enough oxytocin from intimate sex, it will chemically induce bonding. You can literally induce and reinforce social bonding with it. Not only will the partner enjoy the sex more, but they will be bonded to you more, which may or may not be something you want. Good if you are trying to induce/reinforce a relationship, but not good if you want to maintain a strictly casual arrangement (all things being equal).
DeleteMine kept me in bed for three days. We talked, made love, slept, and listened to music in one giant blur that had nothing to do with the clock. We drank bloody Marys in the morning and wine for the rest of daylight. Don't think we ate. I was definitely in an altered state and very much hooked after that.
DeleteIt worked.
Mine definitely tried Neuro linguistic programming but it didn't work. I didn't like being told what to think. I suspect he fancied himself as a hypnotist as well. The sex was not 'insanely good', it felt more like a performance on his part than anything trancendental. He never thought I would leave and couldn't believe that I did.
DeleteMachiavellianempath
ReplyDeleteVery, very well said. This can only come from a person who has had first hand experience of that nature. May I ask whether you regret having had the experience?
OldAndWise
not a bit.
DeleteI've had several versions of it- as a child I couldn't comprehend it. And then I've had some very passionate relationships that allow me to check that off my bucket list. And I actually really enjoy many sociopaths because they tend to question authority and think/speak about much more interesting ideas than Joe average. I respect the internal locus of control and even admire the ethical standards some high functioning sociopaths craft for themselves and hold themselves to. Honor among thieves is a very real thing.
That being said, I feel nothing but disgust for the pandering narcissist who fancies them self to be a sociopathic rebel without a cause... too many of these characters act out in a sociopathic way but are really just the sort of overgrown bully who wets himself and says "yes sir" to who ever is in charge at the moment.
Sociopaths are willful and dangerous. They are also very good at demolishing the narcissism of anyone who gets in their way. My most recent encounter broke my heart and forced me to confront some magical thinking I had carried since childhood. That experience was a crucible that burned away many false things. I didn't enjoy it, but am grateful for the lessons. I'm like the fly that barely escaped the flypaper... damaged for many months but ultimately much wiser now that the emotional scars have healed.
That being said: I never want to be owned by one again.
What did you find most healing in the aftermath?
DeleteAlso, how to you know you're dealing with a narcissist in sociopathic clothing rather than the real deal?
Most healing was spending time alone. That included traveling to Italy solo to paint. For safety's sake I connected with a friend from college for part of the time, but was very much on my own otherwise.
DeleteThe end of that relationship came during a year of multiple major losses including my best friend from college who died from breast cancer in her 30's leaving three small children motherless. Because I had ended the relationship with this individual with the understanding that I would be open to reconsidering it only after counseling, I was able to retain a measure of self respect. I guess that's a long way of saying that I did everything possible to find myself apart from external validation. That sounds a lot more together than I felt which was more like "Fuck it, I'm going to live and do all the things I've been afraid to because I don't know how much time I (or anyone has).
There's a lot of overlap because both exhibit antisocial behavior. Both can be high functioning. Both narcissists and sociopaths can be varying degrees of sadistic. I'm no scientist, but I'd lean towards saying someone is a narcissist if they get overly defensive and flustered in the face of personal criticism. Sociopaths are more likely not to give a shit what anyone things so they can laugh about criticism. Sociopaths also tend to be cooler under pressure and have less mood swings. Substance abuse to manage pain (instead of just have fun) and narcissism seems related because N's are always trying to manage their internal state while sociopaths are much more even keeled. Finally, I think you can sometimes (not always) earn the grudging respect of a sociopath who knows you are onto them if you follow that up with not becoming hysterical and making spectacle of the situation. Sociopaths respect others who have the capacity to control their degree of emotional expression.
Narcissists, on the other hand, think they have great emotional control but they are extremely terrified of being "busted". They will criticize you for being too emotional when they are completely out of control themselves. They are more likely to create preemptive smear campaigns to make you look bad and them look good. It's much easier to "get" to a narcissist than a sociopath by making them feel that they look stupid. They will frantically try to make themselves look good again. A true sociopath honestly doesn't care.
"That being said, I feel nothing but disgust for the pandering narcissist who fancies them self to be a sociopathic rebel without a cause... too many of these characters act out in a sociopathic way but are really just the sort of overgrown bully who wets himself and says "yes sir" to who ever is in charge at the moment."
DeleteI flip-flop between thinking my ex was a narcissist then deciding, no, he was a sociopath. Here's the evidence:
Sociopathy: pathological liar, cool and calm under pressure, violent as a youth, promiscuous, likes to fly below the radar to an extent, wealthy and powerful, controlling and domineering, stealthy, strategic, not sadistic but enjoys hurting certain creatures, highly sexed, enjoys revenge, predatory, irreverent, answers to no one, joker's smile, misogynistic, loves money, good at taking advice from experts.
Narcissism: likes to belong to all the right clubs, live at the best address, loves admiration, likes to generate envy, has all the best toys, vain, image conscious, into his physique, prone to depression, can fly into frightening rage, ultra competitive, loves talking about himself, smears people, trusts no one, bitches about his mother but tries to win her favor (or maybe he's just lining up his inheritance), mean with money, greedy, food issues, feels superior, huge sense of entitlement.
So on balance, what's the verdict?
that he is an asshole that you are lucky to be rid of. I am sure that he seemed great when you met him but now that the bloom is off the rose- please do not look back.
DeleteTo properly answer your question: I'd go with malignant narcissist. His behavior is sociopathic but his motivation seems oriented towards winning admiration.
Pop culture calls antisocial/sociopathic types the worst but all of the cluster B's (antisocial, borderline, narcissistic, histrionic) act out in antisocial ways so it gets confusing about which is the worst one. It might seem that narcissists are just vain so it's not that serious but I have to say that I think the defensive aggression you see from a wounded narcissist is more vicious than any sort of cold hearted act you'd see from a classic sociopath.
Please know that you are worth better. Guys like this have the level of depth that Justin Bieber manifests. They are a joke. Don't be fooled by the swagger. They will piss themselves when any sort of reality check shows up. In the meantime they punish you for the inevitably malaise they feel when their grandiosity gap is too big.
Don't look back.
Actually, Mac, although most of your shit was pretty down pat (hey, that rhymed!) sociopaths are often either dependent on DOA or abuse them. Up to forty percent of people in ROA rehabilitation programs are diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. This is probably not because they're trying to manage pain, though, so you'd be right on that count - it's probably more likely that they are very impulsive.
DeleteYou are correct-
DeleteThat's why I added this qualifier in my statement above - " Substance abuse to manage pain (instead of just have fun) and narcissism seems related because N's are always trying to manage their internal state while sociopaths are much more even keeled."
Thanks for the malignant narcissist diagnosis MachEm. I looked it up and it sounds right. There are so many classifications it gets confusing. I read somewhere that every sociopath is a narcissist but not every narcissist is a sociopath. So I guess it boils down to what is their main motivation. So if the narcissist is motivated by the need for admiration, what's the socio's main driver?
DeleteI too found being alone very healing. So much so that two years later, I prefer being on my own much of the time. I used to be pretty sociable pre-malnarc. Nor have I bothered venturing back on the dating scene. Have you? I love the fly paper analogy.
I have ventured. I have dated two men for more than a few dates. So far neither has been the right fit. It's depressing to admit but I am far more gun-shy so I date less and have yet to open my heart to anyone to the extent I did with my character disordered individual (who I remain unsure how to classify beyond saying I saw a lot of narcissism but also a lot of borderline in his antisocial behaviors)
DeleteHELL YEAH!
ReplyDeleteIf you know what's happening and you choose to stay you can't bitch about it later.
Little fish get eaten by big smarter fish. Experience is a wonderful teacher.
DeleteThen little fish see the merits of the complaints...
no doubt that comment will come off as arrogant/condescending and I don't mean for it to because I really have enjoyed some of your comments- you have a good mind and I know you are young and in process. So apologies for that-
what I am addressing is simply the triumphant nature of your pronouncement. It has all the charm of a trust funded frat boy rapist blaming the victim. From what I have read of your posts I see more potential intelligent thought than that what you've expressed here.
Mhmm Okay, maybe rephrase. Yes you loose all the right to complain because you know what the consequences are, yet you choose to stay.
Deleteclearly you keep your narcissism in check... well stated. :)
DeleteGreat. I feel like I've been unintentionally Rick Rolled by that post title.
ReplyDeleteThe Cardigans: Step On Me, and Love Fool come to mind with this topic. That group seemed very well-versed on masochism.
N
If the sociopath is fully aware of their behavior and choses to put up so impluse control than can't they stop the behavior? I'm asking because all my relationships fail due to my controling nature.yes, I am charming and my blow up sense of self worth keeps my in great shape but my lack of remorse or caring destoys my relationship with others. I'm in one now and when I feel the need to lash out I have managed to stop myself so far.... how long can this last?
ReplyDeleteas long as you don't engage in addictive behavior that lowers your inhibitions.
DeleteSo getting really drunk? bad idea. you will say horrible things and forget you said them. then the other party will withdraw/provoke/get all teary and it will stoke your anger making you more likely to lash out.
Sociopaths that have issues with alcohol may start out high functioning but become progressively less high functioning as time progresses.
Totally agree with this. Never disregard anything that is said by a drunk person. In vino veritas. Never let the person persuade you it was the drink talking... that they are an addict, alcoholic blah blah.
DeleteAnonymous @ 1128am
DeleteCrazy thought... I don't know if any of the readers have tried this before.
Do you trust the person you are with? You obviously think you have sociopathic tendencies. Could you share those thoughts with your partner? Could you explain that once in a while it is very difficult for you to keep your mouth shut?
Also, are there specific behaviors in your partner that trigger the need to lash out? Or any other external factors? The more aware you are of how and when you feel like saying destructive words, the easier it becomes to control the urge.
OldAndWise
Do people who have had a normal, loving upbringing ever fall for psychopaths? Or it is only codependent types who have had a narcissistic/psychopathic parent who are susceptible to their charms?
ReplyDeleteanyone can fall for a psychopath.
DeleteYou certainly don't have to be messed up to fall for a sociopath. From what I have seen, sociopaths are attracted to the most giving, energetic and well liked people. People who are strong enough to enjoy and pride themselves in being good to others. The givers. The innocent. The sensitive kind. People that have not been damaged by a brutal upbringing. The sociopath will spend time and energy enthralling their target. They carefully plan interactions and conversations with the target. And if they are the high functioning, super intelligent kind, you won't have a chance.
DeletePerhaps they are jealous, envious or resentful of those who enjoy their feelings to the fullest and yet can remain productive and successful.
Tough to stay a giving person after you have been through the sociopath mill.
OldAndWise
I like how you put that.
DeleteGenuinely good people are so rare, so very beautiful.
To use a much simplified art analogy, to me:
Most people are like those generic black and white photos of a semi naked bitch. Very generic. But of course have the delusion of being special, wonderful and unique.
Dispensable and replaceable. Can be useful though.
Narcissistic people are the Andy Warhols.
Boring, predictable, pretentious crap, that nonetheless is utterly convinced it is truly magical, beautiful and superior.
Genuinely good people are the Bouguereaus, the Da Vincis.
Incredibly rare, mesmerisingly beautiful and special.
And as wonderful as they are to see, to have, oh how very tempting it is to chip the nose off Michelangelo's David...
The guy saying 'Never gonna give you up' sounds creepy. Who's the sociopath in that equation? 'I'd rather be dead than see you with someone else...' he's the kind of nut job stalker that would shoot her if she tried to leave before turning the gun on himself. So she's using him like a tool - but 'don't you think of leaving', does she know the monster she's created. Which one of them is the sociopath?
ReplyDeleteLol, I love this song.
ReplyDeleteNo comment.
ReplyDeleteI think mine likes to fly under the radar and claims to be borderline. He may be, but he is also a Psychopath, and maybe a sociopath too.
Lemme tell ya something. There a psychopathic borderlines. Not all sociopaths are psychopathic and violent, in fact most aren't, but a few do become psychopaths. SAME THING WITH BORDERLINES, but psychologists aren't talking about it for some reason, and every time I try to, I get shut down by these whiny borderline advocates that are hyper paranoid about stigma, and have no interest in science, but it's the TRUTH. There are freakin psychopathic borderlines out there. It's not quite the same as antisocial psychopaths, they're more like psychopaths with emotions. They're in a classification of their own.
DeleteIm one doc.
DeleteThere's something insanely familiar about a lot of this stuff, but I think it's because I come from an antisocial culture. I grew up in vegas.
ReplyDeleteI like how most comments on a post lead to other topics, sometimes contrary, to the post at hand. Very amusing.
ReplyDeleteYes they lose the ability to complain about it later if they were fully aware of what they were getting themselves into.
ReplyDeleteEveryone's responsible for their experience of life. You have attracted all your experiences because of something going on in YOU. So you don't get to blame anyone for your 'emotional damage'.
ReplyDeleteLike how in court you know they get to sue ppl for causing them emotional suffering?? That's crazy. You are the source of your suffering, no one else.
DeleteWe bring everything upon ourselves is what I mean.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of psycho songs, interesting choice by Mick Jagger for his late girlfriend's memorial service: Just Like a Woman. "And then she aches just like a woman.
ReplyDeleteBut she breaks just like a little girl."
ReplyDeleteHow To Stop A Divorce And Save Your Marriage?(Dr.Brave).
Hello to every one out here, am here to share the unexpected miracle that happened to me three days ago, My name is Jeffrey Dowling,i live in TEXAS,USA.and I`m happily married to a lovely and caring wife,with two kids A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my wife so terrible that she took the case to court for a divorce she said that she never wanted to stay with me again,and that she did not love me anymore So she packed out of my house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get her back,after much begging,but all to no avail and she confirmed it that she has made her decision,and she never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my wife So i explained every thing to her,so she told me that the only way i can get my wife back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for her too So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow her advice. Then she gave me the email address of the spell caster whom she visited.(bravespellcaster@gmail.com}, So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address she gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my wife back the next day what an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my wife who did not call me for the past seven {7}months,gave me a call to inform me that she was coming back So Amazing!! So that was how she came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and she apologized for her mistake,and for the pain she caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, i will advice you out there to kindly email this wonderful man {bravespellcaster@gmail.com},i f you are in any condition like this,or you have any problem related to "bringing your ex back. So thanks to Dr Brave for bringing back my wife,and brought great joy to my family once again.{bravespellcaster@gmail.com}, Thanks..
This could go both ways. In theory if you knew about this first off and stayed with the person then I feel you would be to blame. If this person was swept of his/her feet by the sociopath then I would say this person may have a right to complain. I'm not sure if I am a sociopath but I can tell you I have held relationships for long periods of time and the person had no clue how I really was and was more interested in me the more they found out I didn't have a care in the world what she or others thought of me. She became amazed how I could just brush it off and not become entangled in the he say she say conversations. She did not know this included her also though. So in my opinion since she had no idea I would feel that yes she could complain. If I had told her and opened up to her then she could of made the choice to leave or stay and if she stayed then no it was of her own doing.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteMy name is yurich jerry am from USA. i want to use this opportunity to thank my great doctor who really made my life a pleasurable one today. This great man DR.Ogboni brought my husband back to me, i had three lovely kids for my husband, about four years ago i and my husband has been into one quarrel or the other until he finally left me for one lady. i felt my life was over and my kids thought they would never see their father again. i tried to be strong just for the kids but i could not control the pains that torments my heart, my heart was filled with sorrows and pains because i was really in love with my husband. Every day and night i think of him and always wish he would come back to me, until one day i met a good friend of mine that was also in a situation like me but her problem was her ex-boyfriend who she had an unwanted pregnancy for and he refused to take responsibility and dumped her. she told me that mine was a small case and that i should not worry about it at all, so i asked her what was the solution to my problems and she gave me this great man email address. i was doubting if this man was the solution, so i contacted this great man and he told me what to do and i deed them all, he told me to wait for just two day and that my husband will come crawling on his kneels just for forgiveness so i faithfully deed what this great man asked me to do and for sure after two days i heard a knock on the door, in a great surprise i saw him on his kneels and i was speechless, when he saw me, all he did was crying and asking me for forgiveness, from that day, all the pains and sorrows in my heart flew away,since then i and my husband and our lovely kids are happy.that's why i want to say a big thank you to DR.Ogboni spiritual temple. This great man made me to understand that there is no problem on earth that has no solution so please if you know that you have this same problem or any problem that is similar, i will advise you to come straight to this great man. you can email him at: ogbonispelitemple@hotmail.com
YES!!! if you walk into it full well knowing then you have no right to bitch.
ReplyDeleteThere is help out there i have always thought life is a complicated issues until i met this great man the Dr Ehi of drudebhuluspelltemple@yahoo.com, it all started when my wife and i had problems it was almost tearing my home apart our relationship was almost non existent until i lost my job all the problems were now compounded and my threatened and filed for divorce i had nothing to do and nowhere to go then i came across a post on the internet on how Dr Ehi of drudebhuluspelltemple@yahoo.com helped one woman who was in need, i never knew all this spell casters are powerful so i decided to give it a shot and behold i was surprised when he told me not to worry that everything will be alright i never believed him i had my doubts because my wife was a very stubborn woman someone very hard to convince so i did everything he asked of me and to my surprise my wife started begging me to accept her back that she didn't know what came over her and i was called back in my place of work and compensated and i was also promoted all thanks to one man Dr Ehi of drudebhuluspelltemple@yahoo.com, if you are ever in problem or in need don't look anywhere else just contact this one man drudebhuluspelltemple@yahoo.com and he will help you out in whatever situation you find yourself again i want to say thank you sir for all you done for me your son from the UK steven mogan.
ReplyDeleteI was expecting a Rick Roll. I am disappointed.
ReplyDelete