"Fish in the deep sea are luminous so that they can recognize one another; might not men and women also exude some kind of speechless luminescence to those akin to them?"
The gravest accusation against sociopaths from the "empath-world" seems to be that "aware socios" are said to be very satisfied with their mental condition; if they could remove their psychopathy by pushing a button, they would not do so. Sick folks enjoying their disease! Isn´t this somehow a little unfair: how many empaths would remove "supernatural gifts" they discovered one morning: if they could read others minds or see through walls? Most likely not many. All those movies about superheroes, what are they really about? Answer: human longing to be godlike. But socios are not allowed to have that wish. Somehow they are supposed to daydream about other things..
Humans are just fragile souls who fear the outer world. The truth is that people who have personality "disorders" are either "blessed" with superpowers or a "curse". It all depends if the person wants to take the advantges his personality disorder has to offer or just whine about being born with it. Its you who make your world, you can decide if you want to be a victim of the events or master the events around you and rise to the top. Don't complain about your personality disorder, just use its advantages and you might even become the "super hero" of your reality.
Sigh...this is what I try to teach borderlines, but most of them wanna chop my head of as a result. It seems like only the educated ones who are professionals are receptive to what I have to say. Personally, I don't suffer my borderline, I have fun with it, and I try to use all my characteristics to my advantage.
Well said, Anonymous0750PM. Attitude is what drives your life. Discover what makes you different from others, and take advantage of it. Dr. Ginger, we need more psychologists who think along the same line you do. Perhaps you should look into teaching psychology and open people's minds?
Thanks oldandwise : )I tend to think outside the box, and challenge some of the ideas in the field of psychology. A lot of these individuals get labeled as critical or radical psychologists. There’s some interesting psychology history there such as the radical psychology network founded by Dennis Fox and Isaac Prilleltensky, if you’re ever interested in looking in to it. You may not agree with everything they have to say, but it’s certainly thought provoking.
Sorry to read your high intellectual standards have not been catered to, this make many of the denizens of this den truly heartbroken; how can they go on after such justified, balanced correction?
"We see the world as WE are, NOT how it actually is." That is why there is such a diversity of opinions. Many want to be "happy." There is a definate "science" of happiness. Most people assume if they get what they want they can be "happy." Sure, but only for a short time. Just getting what you want is NOT a long range way to be happy, because the goal post always moves. To be happy, the only thing you need to understand is that ATTITUDE is EVERYTHING. The only thing that everyone has in common is fear of death. You are miserable by your own REACTION to outcomes that you feel MUST happen. You are caught off guard by unexpected results, and you REPLAY in your mind the past events. Once you know that "There is no difference between the SEER and the things seen, you will NOT surcome to negativity, because it's not the outer event that's "bad," but your interpetuation of the event.
A lot of wisdom in your post. Attitude is everything, fear of death shared by all, poor reactions to undesirable, unexpected events, replaying past negative events and potential future negative events. Just listing what you said, and adding the last one.
Seer defines what's seen, and may err on either side. Perceive negative when it's not there (most folks, empath/non-empath), or perceive positive when it's not there (sheep facing the wolf). Words or behavior or both?
This site is very educational in the sense that we share our views without holding back. The only threat is those who try to shut opinions up as opposed to asking more questions to understand better when the other side appears wrong. I was guilty of this when I first got here. Loved fighting the UKan character but later realized I learned a lot from him. He had a way of showcasing the narcissists and breaking them down.
Then there were those I really liked as people no matter what their weaknesses or bad sides were, such as NotMe, Haven, Post. I miss all of them.
I agree with pretty much everything you said except for one "the only thing that people have in common is the fear of death". Even as a kid I never understood why people fear death. As a Christian surrounded by other Christians it made even less since. Same goes for people being sad when others die, why cry or feel sad about it?
Pity? No not one of my forte. Self pity? Don't even mention it. There's this quote from one of my favorite minds, that I really like and have begun to agree with: "Pity is the most agreeable feeling among those who have little pride and no prospects of great conquests." -Friedrich Nietzsche.
I've never felt any fear of death, despite not believing in an afterlife/re-incarnation and experiencing some situations that had a high risk of death. I don't do the grieving thing either. I'd have to have an emotional attachment to the person to be upset. Agree with Tii about it not making much sense in a Christian context. If they floated off to heaven shouldn't you be happy for them? Shouldn't you be celebrating and looking forward to when it's your turn?
Grief and self-pity are 2 very different things. I think to understand the concept of grieving you have to first understand the concept of missing a person. When you miss a person, there is hope and future expectation of seeing that person in the future. When you grieve, you go through the process of killing that hope. Nothing like that with self pity.
Well can't say that I've ever really missed a person. There have been moments when I look through facebook (the few times I do) and see someone's picture and think, "hmm s/he is pretty cool, wiuld be nice if we met again" but, same as Dev, I've never longed for a person. Christians are just the most foolish ones I see in this matter (...and a few others). Everyone wants to go to Heaven but none of them want to die. Whatever your belief, I see no point in fearing death. Fear of going to Hell makes sense, but if you're a person of faith, you already know how to avoid that. So then we're back at why should you fear death?
Fearing death is a bit superfluous. Here, now, I know what exists and what could happen next. It's a life where the boundaries of existence are known, where each day I may experience something new or interesting. Having this life end through death outside of old age means cutting short the trip to the proverbial amusement park, because once you leave the park you don't get to come back in. It would be a waste to cut the trip short, good rides and bad. Maybe there is life after death, or maybe there isn't. Either way, the day pass for this park hasn't expired yet. There is no rush to leave, but if circumstances outside of your control force you to go, it would be disappointing.
I am certainly not a sociopath, and have been raised a Catholic, but i do not fear death. Not here, not now in the comfort of my chair. If it faced me in a dark alley somewhere that would be different I am sure. But I don't want to die and I don't often put myself at risk, though I have done stupid things in the past, even recently. I don't want to die mainly because I enjoy life and because it would inconvenience the people around me, my family in particular. I have told them recently: if I die doing one of my stupid things, don't feel sorry for me... I don't fear death, but I fear dying. I fear the physical pain of dying and I fear being a burden to the people around me if I take too long to die, as well as losing my dignity. I would certainly welcome the option of euthanasia for myself. I witnessed death once. Somebody very close to me. I was with her day and night for her last few days. She was asking for ways to speed it up. In turn, I actually asked the doctors and nurses. But there was nothing that could legally be done, not in the country where I was anyway. I know for a fact that in some countries, when you take care of a dying person at home and they are on morphine to relieve the pain, the medical staff can show you how to make the person pass away faster, if they like you and trust you enough. They actually don't say it, but they tell you what NOT to do... I find it so cruel that our laws prevent us from helping a person die humanely. We give our pets better deaths than we give ourselves. Isn't it ironic?
Well that is the extent of human stupidity. Dying in pain and preferring to end it fast and easy. Nope sorry. You find your life too much to bear, everything is horrible for you, you have no money and nothing to live for, so you try suicide but fail. How could you attempt such vile, immoral thing as suicide, that against the law! Here's a fine to add to everything else that fucked up in your life.
Did you see her tweet? "Good people can do cruel things and feel certain that the rules justified them." I can give so many examples of people who did damage on some level or another and felt it was justified.
Ah, no I had not read the tweet. But yes, it is true that people who view themselves as good, holier than thee type of thing, can be cruel and feel they are in the right. Probably the main reason I left the catholic church a loonog time ago. As for examples, I'd love to hear some. They are bound to raise a few hair on my neck.
Wars for example, or killing in the name of religion. Something more on a smaller scale that I could use as an example would be a borderline client that I was working with who would get very upset whenever her boyfriend would go out with his friends. It would drive her insane, and so one night when he went out she slashed his tires. She felt justified in doing so because she felt that it was him who was responsible for her intense emotions. I originally started doing cbt with her, but she wasn’t responding to it, and then I started implementing DBT which she responded to right away, and she was able to gain a lot of control over her intense emotions, and behaviors. She stopped trying to control him, and was quite relaxed after that whenever he would go out, and instead focused on taking care whatever she needed to care of, or meeting up with friends or family of her own.
Cbt and dbt. I will have to read up in these. But it sounds like you did her and her relationship a lot of good. If you love somebody, set them free. Sting. All right, perhaps I am showing the old in OldAndWise.. Anybody?? Anybody? ...
What I mostly find confusing - time and time again - is the implication that neuro-typicals are "weaker" due to their innate wiring whereas socios are "stronger". Then, this reasoning usually goes on to a rant about how neuro-typicals shun socios for the way they are. not to say this isn't true - it does happen - but why shun neuro-typicals? as someone "normal" who has had involvement with socios, im not clear on why anyone is better than anyone. its honestly just different.
i love that i experience the world the way that i do. many self-aware socios love that they experience the world the way they do. no socio will ever REALLY understand the way my life is fulfilling due to my wiring, and i will never understand the way your life makes socios feel.
Empaths also seem to really hate that socios "are not sorry". Even if the psycho is really cute & law abiding, "not being sorry" for this or that angers empaths. Accidently spilled juice: "-Oh no, I cannot believe it. Has not my clumsiness caused enough grief?" How it should sound. Most passion-related "ruckus" seem to be understandable. Just don´t sit there silent, morose & dead-pan, wiping that juice..
Use the manners your mother taught you. When you offend someone or a society by criminal action, its polite to say sorry and to be introspective of how your behaviour and personal actions can affect the citizens around you. You spill juice, you clean it up, lol. You don't have to have fuzzy feelings about a situation. We seem to have an abundance of apathy when dealing with people... that's why our school system now has empathy programs in grade school (to teach and show children because were loosing good-ethical-virtues for our fellowman.) Even sociopaths have a good supply of cognitive empathy. There's no excuse for the sociopath or the empath to use polite mannerism.
Charity may begin at home but psychopathy blooms at school. Most apple-cheeked teachers would flinch with horror if they saw the mental development their activities causes in young socios. That´s the place where that inner "welding flame" often is lit..
Could bullying exacerbate a psychopath's inherent propensity for bad behavior? Yes, but I don't think zero tolerance would do much to stop it. Zero tolerance hadn't come on the scene yet when I went to school, if it had I think it might have made it worse actually. I lost interest in tormenting people, but zero tolerance would've seemed like a challenge so I might have continued. Anyway, they have to catch you bullying, and that's easier said than done with psychological abuse.
to go back to the "empaths are angry because sociopaths are not sorry"-
here's a rational explanation of where that "outrage" comes from.
In most meaningful relationships that require cooperation, there is an assumption that both parties have a stake in seeing a positive outcome as a payoff for cooperative acts. Multiple reward cycles of this expectation being fulfilled lead to trust whether that be on a professional or personal level.
Trust enables cooperation to proceed with much less effort than two wary strangers would be required to invest to reach a similar level of collective benefit. Trust is valuable less because it is moral and more because it's labor saving to trust other people. Think of the person capable of delegating in contrast with the micromanager. Micromanagers don't trust.
When a sociopath plays someone for a fool and that person realizes they've been had, it's more than the loss of whatever was at stake. What's lost is their ability to trust others so their ability to conduct themselves efficiently is greatly compromised. If a sociopath can recognize that the wronged empath is angry about more than just the loss of shared benefit they will observe that the empath is really quite devastated on a personal level that they have been stripped of trust. That's why making amends on a practical level is rarely effective in writing a wrong.
The perceived lack of a genuine apology from the sociopath to the empath is an important piece of the puzzle of why some sociopaths tend to be marginalized more than others. The stupid sociopath lets their pride get in the way of offering the other party recognition that what was stolen in a way that seems apologetic and remorseful. The smart sociopath recognizes that in expressing regret and simultaneous respect for the victim's basic dignity they defuse the time bomb of resentment the empath is left with after the experience of being defrauded.
Think about popular sociopaths in movies/tv. We like Hannibal Lechter for being civilized and gracious even as he is being brutal. That's because he is inflicting damage without destroying trust in basic human connection in a callous manner. No warmth motivates this pattern, just a savvy understanding that it's self protective to express regret when an empath identifies you a the source of their trouble.
Bottom line- when empaths get mad that a sociopath doesn't apologize it has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with primal emotions like rage and fear that social animals are hard wired to feel when trust breaks down.
True Dev, we'll stated. Pychological abuse goes un-noticed too much of the time and hard to spot.
I've never been so much of a bully, but I can recognize that the bully has some sort of deep trauma inside and they project and deflect to tolerate their inner turmoil inside, maybe without even realizing it. I've had to kick ass in grade 4. My bully beat me up everyday after school for a short period of time.
It was my best friend at that time who pulled me aside, and said FIGHT or he will keep targeting you. My legs were full of bruises from him.
I beat the shit out of him so bad the next day after school that he never showed up to school the next two days. Years later he said he had a deep crush on me. I betcha he was in an environment that witness domestic violence and that's how he roled unfortunately. I had to face my bully spot on, and as sad as it sounds beat him. I earned respect and he never once touched me again after that.
pretty good- lots of hands on parenting required for my younger three children.
missing the SW crowd as I have been offline- it makes me wish we could all meet in person someday (cue eye roll from most of you) - I do feel a fondness for the personalities here. As much as I understand that there is always a degree of self presentation on the internet I also find the fact that most of you are willing to discuss the shadow sides of your nature to be very helpful as I come to grips with my own dark side…
Me and my eldest have a count down till school starts, please come quickly, quicker ;) cuz it's sure busy with the kids at home. July went fast and school supplies I shall start piling in the waygon soon.
Ya would be kinda neat to meat up. Maybe a group of us would be interested sometime...
Cheers back at cha. :)
Would be cool to meet up for a weekend. Maybe a group of us would be interested in doing that sometime.
Machiavellianempath, I really like what you wrote about trust. Very insightful and well written. It makes so much sense when you put it like this. I keep thinking about it... trust is in my mind fundamental to friendship and other relationships.
In what way(s) can a sociopath be trusted? I have some answers I came up with that seem to work for me, but I was wondering what everybody else thought.
A less evolved sociopath can be trusted to act as a small child might in response to both positive and negative stimuli.
An evolved (prosocial) sociopath can be trusted to act in their own long term best interest. If this sociopath happens to possess a modicum of conscientiousness (it's not typical for antisocial personalities but you do see it fairly frequently because personalities are so unique) then you will likely see a very Machiavellian personality whose manipulative powers are well developed. So to trust someone like this, you must be confident that you know them well enough to identify their self interest. This is not as easy as it might seem because personalities like this do not want to be known.
The key to trusting that a sociopath will "deliver" on an expectation is to make sure that expectation never exists outside the range of the sociopath's self interest.
Dumb sociopaths are easier to work with because they are more transparent.
But smart sociopaths can also be excellent allies if you take the time to really understand what they want (rather than just trusting the impression they deliberately create) because they tend to be free thinkers who are far more open to considering unconventional solutions to problems that stymie the average individual who is handicapped by neurosis.
Bottom line: You can trust that unsophisticated sociopaths are easily manipulated if you have the right reward and properly account for confounding variables. You can trust that a smart sociopath is very willing to change limiting rules of whatever game/societal construct is being accessed if they perceive that it is in their self interest to do so.
People are wary of sociopaths because they can not "trust" them. But perhaps that's just a morality heavy way of saying "I can't predict their behavior therefore I feel anxious because I can not control them".
Sociopaths simply need to be rewarded in a way that is agreeable to their interests. If you deal with a sociopath on that level you will likely have no problem. That said, if you haven't done your homework well enough to know what they actually want (as opposed to what they say they want) then you are likely to be sabotaged. But if you believe someone to be a sociopath and still choose to enter into a shared effort with them- that's your bad, not theirs. A tiger has stripes. If you can accept that, then you can "trust" a sociopath.
Just never make the mistake of underestimating one or you might as well just give them the keys to your personal kingdom.
The key to getting most people to deliver is to ensure the expectation exists within the range of their self interest. If that weren't so, then the threat of getting fired for under-performing or getting a citation for breaking a law wouldn't need to exist. These things exist to alter people's range of self interest and channel the efforts of multiple individuals in the same direction, thereby making society possible. In this regard, the only difference between a socio and everyone else is that the socio doesn't feel any shame, guilt, or fear for breaking the societal self interest modifiers. This leads to the lack of trust due to lack of control you mention.
Interesting. I believe we might exude some kind of invisible and inaudible waves. As an example, have you tried to look at somebody in their car when stopped at a traffic light? Even if you are not in their field of vision, they will sometimes sense it and turn their eyes towards you. Has any you experienced the same thing?
I'm not sure whether they are waves or whatnot, could be or maybe some sort of vibration (I guess those would count as waves too). But yah it's almost like a super soft warm marshmallowy feeling on the sode of your face where the stare is coming from.
I was actually obsessed with biology, particularly marine biology as a kid. I once visited one of those underwater facilities where you can view a coral reef as is, an aquarium of some sort, submerged under water. I already knew all the fish swimming there, how they feed, breed and whatnot. I was practically giving a tour to my parents and their friends who were on the trip with us... And then a group of tourists tuned in. See, they had these speaker thingies that'd have all the fish there in a data base, you'd just type in the code of the fish from a catalog and it'd tell you the story - the story I already knew. The tourists started clustering around me and listen - the staff of the facility were getting pissed 'cause that means the tourists wouldn't rent these damn devices and started giving me dirty looks. Ha ha. I was 11, for me it was "anarchy". How could I only amplify it and piss them off more? Easy, I spoken 4 languages back then...
...But back to the luminous issue. Some fish do it because it attracts other life forms, of the edible variety. The angler fish, for example. Speaking of the angler fish, look up on how it mates. I got a cousin like that. Ha ha.
See how M.E. is an "intutive?" She IS NOT a strictly "nuts and bolts" type. She incorporates and compehends "intangable" concepts-"ideals." Could this be from her Mormon upbringing? Educators are intutives. Now take a "base" cunning sociopath, like some of these "reality T.V. gals." Completely shallow. Look, lust, and grab. The bottom tangable line. A "basic" sociopath is Extraverted. (How did aspergers folks get lumped under the sociopath umbrella?) He is sensory. (He works and deals in the material world.) He is a dispassionate thinker "C'est La Vie," (That's how the Manendez brothers reacted to their parents deaths.) He is "percieving." "Don't put any time restrictions on me. The job will get done." I hate 9 to 5." Another words, the profitable end justifies the means. Get right to the point! The "boring" empathy, laggardly wussy, is incapable of understanding, so they can be used and disgarded. Is M.E. one of these? Only to the extent that she is a thinking person. M.E. is "clinical." She doesn't like wasting her time either. But she is ENTJ. The people who say that Myers Briggs is a load of crap simply don't know what they are talking about. M.E. herself is proof. And M.E. is no sociopath. BTW, fear of death IS instictual. I have never seen people sit pat in a structure that catches fire. Everybody flees. Male, female, old, young, liberail, conservative, even terminal Cancer patient, they all flee.
You make absolutely no sense. I have never read such a jumble of badly spelt nonsense.
Now, with regards to fear of death, I strongly disagree. Personally, I once got pissed off with the pharmacy telling me that I was not allowed to buy more than 2 packets of paracetamol at the same time. I had no intention of killing myself, but got so annoyed with the jobsworth attitude that I set out to prove her wrong that 2 packets of 18 500 mg paracetamol were not enough to kill. I therefore took all 36 tablets together with a load of booze in a pub across the road. I did get very sick, and sent to emergency where I vomited more than ever in my life, but much to my annoyance was proven wrong. I do not in any way fear death. I realise through logical thinking that what I did was really stupid, but I still have a niggling annoyance that the jobsworth idiot who refused to sell me the 3rd packet turned out to be right, (even though if she would have sold it to me, I wouldn't have taken an overdose). I also know that I obviously could have just come back after purchasing the first 2 packets and bought more, but this is exactly why I was annoyed.
Death has never held any fear for me. I am quite frankly amazed that I managed to get to 38 years of age despite this.
If I were a terminal cancer patient I would flee a burning building because that's an extremely painful way to die. Additionally, you might not die. Then you get stuck in the burn center for who knows how long. Sitting in a burning building is just dumb, fear of death is not required for self-preservation.
And I have no idea why you think people with Asperger's are in the same category as socios.
I have no fea of death. Place a gun to my head while showing body language that tells me that you won't pull the trigger and I might actually taunt you enough that you actually pull it. Of course a bastard stupid and didn't know his place enough to attack me should know that I would make sure to leave evidence against him after I die (a little fuck you present). If I see that you have the intent to shoot I would probably try and make the person shoot me somewhere that would take me a bit of time to die, so that I can leave a message after he leaves (I like to believe that I would be capable of overcoming the pain and doing so) that police could use against him. Or since I'm bound to die I might also try to convince myself that I'm capable of fighting off a mugger, and so fight him and kill him myself in a way that would take long enough for me to maje him regret it and feel stupid. Burning building on the other hand... yah thanks but I'll pass. I would rather not have to feel and smell my own flesh burning while my skin melts, like cheese, off of me.
You go skydiving and when you open your parachute you realize that you have a hole that will only allow you to survive the fall but, you won't make it out without extreme pain and being permanently paralyzed. What do you do? One, let it happen, at least you will be alive? Or, two, cut the chute loose and have an awesome couple seconds or free fall before you maneuver your body around to make suke you fall directly on you head and that it's an instant kill? Or, three a different answer? What would you do in that situation and why?
I would live with paralysis over death. Besides, being in a wheelchair isn't completely bad - there are benefits (sympathy and social support programs).
I suppose I'd probably pick paralysis. If it were a real life situation where I couldn't know the possible outcomes I would definitely not cut the parachute.
I think I would have cut the chute. Being paralyzed would not work with my life style, and hobbies. Plus I get a few seconds of real freedom if I cut myself loose. Plus I really wonder what thoughts would come to my mind on my way down when it's sure that those are my last moments.
In Huna, psychic phenomena are considered as extensions of our normal senses and not as something completely distinct and "supranormal." In this view psychic phenomena go on all the time in everyone's life, but bcause of prejudiced beliefs they are mostly ignored unless they are dramatic. Sometimes they are allowed to sneak into notice as hunches, intuition, inspiration, and coincidence.
Correlating Huna as closely as possible with Western terminology: Telepathy is an extension of our sense of hearing and ability for speech; Clairvoyance is an extension of our sense of sight; Psychokinesis is an extension of our sense of touch and our ability to physically affect our environment; Divination (precognition) is an extension of our ability to estimate probabilities and make educated guesses about future events.
Life is just void and emptyness. Humans are the most wild animals on the earth because we use our brain to keep killing and destroying each other physically or verbally . If there is a "God" why he dont put us, Humanity, out of its misery? It would be the best for the entire universe and other more decent species.
Isn't that the question...? Is He a cynical sadist who enjoys it all? Is He a carefree nonchalant observer who won't interfere and doesnt care about it? Or is He trying to prove that we can be the perfect creatures that He originally created and that even with all our fault we can be good because we are His children, and have been created in His image? Is He a complete narcissist who only created us so that we live to praise Him and adore Him? Or has God destroyed Himself to test the limits of His omnipotence and omniscience, since a universe without Himself would be the only thing He wouldn't know (if he had such a thing), and we are the remaining fragments of his consciousness, continuously growing from dust, to stars, to planets, microbes, animals, and humans we are, growing bigger and bigger accumulating millenias of information into us until we once again become the original great being that is God (rough interpretation... check out "God's Debris" awesome novel). Or arz we just waisting our time wondering about something that actually doesn't exist, and there is and has never been a God? "Is man God's blunder, or is God's man blunder," -Nietzsche. I know my answer I guess it's up to each one of us to figure out his own. Either way the way you live your life should be a reflection of yourself not what you were told.
Rather Source is like a combo between a loving mother and a curious, experimental scientist (Source, like us, is both Feminine and Masculine, and both "right and left brained", where do we think we received these archetypal traits?). Source set up certain laws and conditions, released freewilled, self aware aspects of itself out, and said, "go have fun and learn, experience each other, just remember though, while you have freeewill, there are consequences to your choices. I long for your return and will know joy beyond joy when you do, but you must choose me of your own volition--i cannot and will not force you."
That occasionally some aberrations occur, is part of the experiment, but Source longs for and hopes that all come back--that's the loving mother part of it.
However, it will not ever force or rush the process, for that would negate freewill. Source wants us to choose it and Unity Consciousness in general, of our own freewill. But like i said, there is a catch 22 in the system. The more you choose "un Sourceness" the more you tend to suffer. The more you choose Sourceness, the more at peace, more joyous you tend to become. In a sense, there is a reward system built in. Why do you think the huge majority of people and "Souls" are not socio or psychopathic, and are trying to evolve? Doesn't this answer itself?
I've seen it in my own life and self, the more attuned to Love and positivity on all levels i become, the more life feels and seems positive on all levels. It's the ultimate "high".
However, Source does partake in guiding it's Creation, if albeit indirectly. It does so through us, the individualized, freewilled aspects talked about earlier, or more simply, through more awakened and mature fellow siblings. These we could call "Retrievers". They went through the same process of experiencing the temporary "disconnection" or separation, but decided to choose Source and Sourceness. Some have fully consciously re-merged and others are relatively close to same.
These are the active parts of Source that try to affect positive change within the Whole, guided by the Love and awareness of Oneness that attunement to Source Consciousness facilitates.
We who are consciously of (and choose) Source, love you, all of you unconditionally. However, that doesn't mean we like what you do or what you choose, but we know we all have had learning pangs and have strayed from the path of original reality--that some stray much more than others is of no real significance--stray is stray and we all have been there. We hope all of you eventually choose to change your choices and path so that you can know the joy, at peaceness, and sense of Home that we know and enjoy.
We love you more than you can know, and indeed, more than you love yourselves, because we see who and what you really are, and who and what you really are, is much bigger and more grand than you currently can conceive. But you must be reborn in Fire, after being washed in Water, and only you ultimately can initiate that process, and we won't lie, it's painful as hell at first, but it's more than worth it. May not seem that way now, but, it is.
I was curious about other’s backgrounds who visit this site who identify as being sociopathic. Even though I can see a lot of ASPD characteristics in a lot of commenters, I also can’t help but notice differences in personalities too, and I’m wondering if it’s the different backgrounds and life experiences that would account for it. Dev is exactly what I think of when I think of a sociopath. I can’t help but think of the Angelina Jolie character in Girl Interrupted. If some of you wouldn’t mind sharing I would be curious to know about your family history and upbringing.
I have a possibly BPD mother, a narcissist father and an older, possibly narcissist/psychopathic brother. None of them have official diagnoses because that would imply that they are less than perfect. I don't have an official diagnosis because I am not stupid.
The relationship between my mother and brother is best described as that of Norma and Norman Bates from 'Psycho' (or, more accurately, from the TV spinoff, 'Bates Motel'). The relationship between my mother and father is that of passive-aggressive, just-waiting-for-you-to-drop-dead-so-I-get-my-cut-of-the-money contempt. My mother has tried to kill both me and my father (basically murder by neglect, it's not like she chased us with knives or anything :P, but there was a very real chance that we'd both die and she chose to do nothing).
The relationship between me and my mother is strained, since she insists on having a daughter and I insist on not being abused. From my side of things, I do not consider (nor do I remember ever considering) her a mother; same goes with the other members of my immediate family.
The only way my father can relate to women is sexually, so he crosses boundaries often in his quest to have a relationship with me; although he lived with us while I was growing up, he was mostly absent ('working late', partying). My first conversation with him was at age 17. I get the impression that he does not think much of women in general, although he expresses pride in me sometimes (as long as he can claim that my achievements are all thanks to him, duh :P). The rest of the time, he feels entitled to making lewd comments on my body and asking me personal questions such as my sexual orientation and the reason why I don't have a partner (which he sees as a failure on my part). He gets very angry if he feels like I am not being the loving, dutiful, respectful daughter that he deserves and that he can parade around in front of his equally crude friends. He has the annoying habit of telling me he 'loves' me just to hear it said back to him, something that I have also experienced with my mother and brother.
My relationship with my brother is one of mutual tolerance, although he holds me to a greater degree of contempt compared to things on my end. He reminds me of the character of Walter White around the third season of 'Breaking Bad' in that he is obsessed with power and wealth, will say anything to get his way, is impulsive, paranoid and thinks he is a misunderstood genius (with everyone else, obviously, being way below his level). And in his mind, I am Jesse Pinkman.
I have the dubious pleasure of being the scapegoat of my family. They flip-flop between holding me in a pedestal and trying to tear me down by projecting all their insecurities on me. This does not really say anything substantial about me, nor did I blame myself for conflicts at our house while I was growing up. I honestly still don't see how I could be all that they accused me of. I'm not *that* interesting. However, I thought I was clever enough to figure out how to fix everything that was wrong in our relationship when I was younger. I really didn't see that the rules kept changing (*Admiral Ackbar face* IT'S A TRAP) and that, my family being made up of severely overemotional people governed mostly by fear, there was no underlying logic to their actions.
I have memories of being 'different' ever since I was in kindergarden, although it must not have helped that I was sexually and emotionally (very occasionally, physically) abused throughout my early years, starting around age 4. I am not sure if I was born this way or not.
I don't have a criminal background and always did very well in school. I have just completed a master's degree in a field that really interests me and that promises to keep me busy and entertained, at least for a few years. I am very much an introvert but have managed to make good friends that I can depend on.
Uh. I can't think of anything else at the moment. Is there anything else you'd like to know, Dr. G (may I call you Dr. G)?
I am curious as to the upbringing of other people on this site. I have heard that having a BPD parent is the 'standard' sociopath upbringing. I wonder if other people have had similar experiences.
My mom is most likely bpd. My brother is a classic borderline; rages, ruminates, makes violent threats, perpetually angry, except the rare times he's not he's incredibly witty and funny, recovering alcoholic, etc. My mom is a lot like him, but doesn't drink or do drugs. She's Mormon, but I don't think that's why she doesn't, I just don't think it's ever been her thing. All of our basic needs were met as kids, but she just didn't really like her kids. She wasn't nurturing or warm. She was emotionally abusive, and would rage for hours on end. When they added to the fifth edition of the DSM that borderlines lack empathy in their interpersonal relationships it all came together and made sense for me. Personally I don't live in my past like my brother does, but he is just imprisoned by it. He hates that he didn't have the perfect childhood.
Haven't seen Girl Interrupted, guess I'll have to watch it.
If all the things my mother has done came to light she would definitely qualify for an ASPD diagnosis. She was mostly psychologically abusive, but sometimes physically as well especially when I was under the age of 5. She's mostly reactively aggressive, the problem being everything sets her off. My father was an angry alcoholic and sometimes physically abusive. At least as far as I can remember, basic needs were met. My extended family is populated with a few ASPD and HPD sufferers, lots of ADHD and substance abuse. Being empathy challenged is common among those who do not have a PD. There are an inordinately large number of people living in the gutter, but also inordinately large numbers of high-rollers in business, law, technology, etc.
Fetal environment was less than stellar. Alcohol exposure, yes. Tobacco, yes. Recreational drugs, maybe. She can't remember whether I was an accident or not, so I doubt I'll never know about the drugs.
My earliest memories are of my mother hitting me, I was still in diapers. I remember feeling enraged and realizing she just wanted to get me to cry. As a toddler, I quickly figured out she behaved differently in front of other people, so I'd try to bait her into blowing up in public. Physical abuse was not getting the desired response and I was about to start school anyway, so she turned to emotional abuse instead. The emotional abuse did a number on my sister, lots of issues with depression and anxiety, but was merely an annoyance and a power struggle for me.
My upbringing was problematic, but not exceptionally awful in the scope of lousy childhoods. My genes however, are exceptionally awful. I think that the collusion of a lot of risky genes with poor environment is why my personality is as extreme as it is.
To be honest, I don't know much about ASPD. Like I've mentioned before it's only recently (a few months ago) that I found out sociopaths weren't just serials killers and crazy people running around with knives raping everyone. I've always felt different from others, no matter how I saw it, it always seemed like people didn't keep up. At a very young age I realized that intelligence wasn't knowledge, and knew that even though I wasn't more knowledgeable, I was more intelligent then people around me (except for my grandfather). My earliest memory I think happened when I was three. I was at my aunts house watching my mom ride her bike, she seemed like this giant on a gigantic bicycle. She fell in mud and I remember telling her that it was good for her. And she pretended to cry and got up and walked away. That memory has haunted me until only a few years ago, and I'm pretty sure it's the only thing that I truly regretted. The thing is I don't think I felt any remorse, which I think it was why I was so bothered by it. I regretted it because I laughed at the pain of my mother, a woman who had treated me like a prince (which is what some of my uncles and aunts called me because of the way she treated me) and had always been there for me. I knew it was wrong, based on what I was taught, so I followed her repeating that I was sorry. I regretted it, but felt no remorse, I was wrong and felt sorry, but I didn't really feel bad about it.
I grew up in an extremely religious Catholic family. I have aunts and uncles that are considered exorcists by the Church, a few are allowed to keep the Eucharist at there house, and I have cousins who have almost become priests or nuns. So growing up the center of my family life was the Trinity and the Virgin Mary. What I consider right or wrong is what I have been taught by my parents, grandparents, and the Bible, and I try to abide them. I am pretty religious, although I do reject a lot of what is bullshit that the Church tries to stuff down my throat (for one thing, that Arian Jesus image, doesn't make much sense considering that he is a Jewish Arab that pretty much grew up in the Middle Eastern desert). My family members have always tried to quiet me down when I asked any questions that would give any hint of doubt in God because it was a sin (which is total BS considering that he can read my mind, why does it only become a sin when I say it out loud). Only three members have encouraged me to ask questions, my grandparents and my aunt. Funny how the ones who encouraged me to have questions are the ones who seemed to have the answers, and when they didn't have questions the would draw a parable that would make it a lot clearer. As a kid I always tried to do what I thought was right, and because of the fact that I figured that friends you can rely on was the only valuable thing in this world besides knowledge, I did my best to make friends and rarely said no to anything they asked. I have always been considered the prodigy of my generation in my family (I have about 50-60 something cousins). I always had good grades, but seemed to be the one who studied the least, which I think is why I always felt more intelligent then other people (except my grandfather who seems to be the only one I can look up to when it comes to intelligence and knowledge).
(cont'd) My father left my mother when I was young, so I only lived with him during the weekends. He is also Catholic although it isn't the biggest aspect of his life, he is more business orientated. If I were to label any member of my family as sociopaths it would be him, except for the fact that he has always shown a lot of love for my half brother and I, he was the one who pretty much raised his younger siblings as a kid after his parents separated brutally, and he is a complete humanitarian. As for my mother, the more I read about BPD the more I can trace it back to her. In her everyday life she is mostly dependent, especially of my stepfather. She is extremely emotional, and suffers from stress and panic attacks (one of the reasons why we moved to the US when I was 10). She gets upset really easily, and swears that she will have nothing to do with you or the matter which upsets her for the rest of the day, but then will be the first to come back after she cools off and feels a little bad about it. She is extremely lively (when she is not depressed or stressed, or when there's music on), and way to caring and generous. She’s very forgiving but, if you get on her bad sad for too long, you mean nothing to her, and she’ll practically see you as trash. She seems pretty weak when you look at her, especially because of the way she tends to depend on people but, I am a first hand witness of how courageous she really is. When I was six we got kidnapped, and she was totally cool, in fact she was so nonchalant about it that every remark the kidnappers made she would purposefully respond in a way that would enrage them (to the point where one cocked his gun and placed it to her head, and she still continued). At that time I wasn't scared I just kept nudging my mom to be quiet because she was going to get killed and I was going to end up alone with them. The whole time this happened I was thinking about what I would do if they ended up killing my mom. After we eventually got set free (idiots broke down the car and had to run away) and got back home she started suffering from stress and anything that sounded like a gun shot would give her panic attacks. Since gunfire and violence were very where I am from at the time, we moved to the US. First thing I realized was how idiotic the kids here were, so for a few years I distanced myself from them. I kept high grades and was at the top of my classes for the first two years, advanced in many subjects and talking with authority while displaying brilliance (not my words but my teachers) to the point where a few of my teachers asked me to remember them when I became successful in the future. Middle school I became lazy and just refused to do any school work, but only aced my tests to keep my grades at least a B (which annoyed my parents and teachers because “I wasn’t living to my potential”). When I got in trouble in school I had a way to smile and talk to my teachers and they would always give me my “last chance”. A teacher once commented to my parents that the only reason I wasn’t in the principals office every week was because of how calm, polite, and how I had a beautiful smile even when I was in trouble. I’ve always been good at judging people and at reading them and there next move. Always made friends easily, but never really got attached to anyone. My family at home is I guess the best I could ask for. My parents and step siblings are extremely caring and loving, and have always done everything to help me. My younger half sister as a kid was the nicest most generous person you knew, but growing up I think she picked up on my habits and traits. She’s cold, clever, sarcastic, good at making friends, and responds to conversation to the least amount of words as possible but, she cares way to much for what people think of her, and is pretty emotional.
(Keep strong I'm almost done!) I realized I was different then others when I noticed that I didn’t get affected by emotions the way others do. It takes a lot to get me mad now, though when I was a kid I was very impulsive and always ready to swing my fist, because I see no point in getting mad. I don’t remember ever being sad, even when family members died (I remember faking being sad and crying when my uncle died, I pretended to be affected by it so that I could skip school the day he died and the day of his funerals… didn’t work -.- ). I don’t think I’ve ever really been excited about something, which was a problem when I was offered presents as a kid. The only emotions I know are anger, joy, and love. Anger and love, because I get pissed and I get happy. Love, because my definition of love is caring, appreciation, and respect (which also have there own definition in my dictionary), and not something magical that makes no sense. Some of the few things that interest me are learning about other cultures and religions, and philosophy (lately psychology has been added to the list). I’ve never found any thrill in torture, or sadism, and help people pretty often (though I mostly help because according to my faith it’s the right thing to do). So the verdict came down to either I’m a genius who’s logic, intelligence, open mindedness, and great philosophical mind have allowed to gain control of and reject unwanted/unnecessary emotions, and was able to learn how to read and predict others emotions. Or, I’m a genius sociopath who was made with all those things already, and whose default was set without bullshit emotions.
@Dev: Girl, Interrupted is an OK movie. Plus, Angelina Jolie plays 'you' in it :P as is often the case, I have heard that the book the movie was based on is better. Haven't read it, though.
@Tii: you sound like a very smart, well-rounded individual. I was also raised with religion and I think it's responsible for my general pro-social tendencies. I'm an atheist, though. To be honest, I don't know why I keep helping random people. It's not as if I'm going to heaven or as if it makes me look good in front of others, nor am I getting a 'good', self-satisfied feeling out of it. Most people seem to think I am kind and good, but I bet they would be horrified to learn that I do not 'mean' it. I really don't get that. If I am doing 'good' and helping people, what does it matter what my initial intention was?
Voodoo pork, your sexual abuse, I'm sorry you had to experience that tragedy. It's courageous of you to share your story. Thanks for that. Thanks to all of you for opening up, I don't feel so alone, nice to have support and community who understands. I always felt different after my own experience with sexual abuse. It's like night and day switch. I can remember my transition. ..I went from girly girl dresses that I absolutely loved to dress up in on a daily basis, (you'd never find me in pants) -- to hiding behind a tomboy look when I was very young.
(The dresses..... I refused to where after that.). The pictures snapped of me during that time, were of me - never smiling, deep sadness. I did transition out of it and managed to enjoy the girlie style again, but still to this day wonder who the hell I am sometimes inside. If only my 'self' was fixed like that little girl who loved her dresses so much, confident In her own skin.....
My abuse changed my fixed identity to a fluid in identity. I don't know who I am, I fluctuate rapidly to my environments to survive inside. (Being brutally honest here. ) And there's a fellow here Eric, if it wasn't for him writing how to be introspective of our own behaviours and actions inside, I'm not sure if I would of survived finding myself, my true core that desperately wants to come out for good. I'm thankful to him. I tried sexual abuse counceling this year and cannot survive it at this time, I quickly become un- regulated because the abusers will always be in my life, no way around it. The trigger is that strong. So the plan was to put me back in dbt, hoping this will get me grounded for the next phase of sexual abuse trauma afterwards. I had no idea of the different phases of dbt therapy with this one agency that deals with sexual abuse trauma that I'm involved in on a weekly basis. The journey is going to be long with all the stepping stones to build mastery from, but its going to be attainable and well worth it a second time around. Strong coping skills is needed for sexual abuse councelling.
You must be new around here? Nice to meet you.
Can I ask you a question? Do you see yourself having anti-social symptoms of any kind or even borderline symptoms?
And a question to all of you. Do you think that antisocial traits, borderline, or narcissism comes from a deep injury of past trauma of some kind and the self inside splits? We either turn emotion off or loose our control in it and stay there to long Any thoughts?
Well based on what Tii describes it doesn't sound like he experienced much trauma in early childhood, and yet still has sociopathic traits. The reason I asked others about their history is because it often seems like the more trauma or abuse, the more severe the symptoms are so it seems more like it is the neurochemistry of the brain, and the way that it is wired. If what Jeffrey Dahmer says is true, he also never experienced any early childhood trauma. His case was pretty severe, but generally it seems that there is a correlation between severity of symptoms in ASPD, and early childhood trauma. It's interesting though to hear Dev's perception of her experiences as toddler because from her perception she didn't necessarily feel hurt, but felt that it was more of a power struggle between her and her mother.
Very true Dr. G. I think neuro- chemistry of the brain is very powerful and evolution also intertwines into it. Gene traits and environmental factors passed along from generation to generation can cause a personality clash later on. I believe a sociopath is more made though. A warrior type being born (just like the borderline), mixed in an environment of some type of trauma to either turn off emotion / or turn it on in order to survive the environments it's given. It becomes so natural because it ties it yo your personality like DNA. That's why sometimes a sociopath or a borderline don't see anything wrong with them. Disordered empathy in both of them is a way of survival. If it wasn't for my borderline - I would have not survived. It was a coping mechanism. Thank God I had borderline, but it's not a long term coping mechanism. I'll sabotoge myself. :(
Maybe Dev, didn't feel to hurt, but she did experienced trauma, especially being hit in diapers and the power struggle she felt with her mother like you mentioned. :( She never reacted emotionally like a borderline would, but acted with antisocial traits maybe? Idk. Just tossing out thoughts. :)
Superchick, Personally, I don't believe there is a self to split and have never had the sensation of a self. I think people can dissociate due to trauma, which probably feels like the self splitting if you have a sensation of self. I don't know about borderlines, but I wouldn't call someone who is emotionally numb and acting out due to trauma a socio. I think socios are more born than made; although trauma could definitely exacerbate a socios latent tendencies for causing mayhem. In my case, I suspect the fetal exposure to alcohol, tobacco, possibly drugs had a bigger effect than the other environmental factors.
My mother was not abused as a child, but she's still antisocial. On the contrary, she was a bit spoiled. Same with my father. It's obvious both sets of grandparents feel deep-seated guilt and confusion as to why they turned out the way they did, especially because their siblings aren't like that. Also, my sister came from the same environment and she's nothing like me.
I have to agree that sociopaths are born, and not made, but some of these traits can be further nurtured depending on the environment. As far as Dahmer goes, I’m pretty sure he had ASPD, but it is interesting that a number of serial killers were first labeled with bpd. Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gayce for example were diagnosed with bpd, but these were not bpd cases. I do think though that a portion of the borderline population is psychopathic.
To give an example of this, Eileen Wuornos probably really just had bpd. She with was diagnosed with bpd and aspd, but the default personalities are too different from each other to have a comorbid diagnosis in my opinion. She probably just had the psychopathic version of bpd.
Dev, interesting, thanks for sharing, I have a few friends who are fasd (diagnosed) and I belong to some groups in support of people that I'm closed to who are alcohol affected. Some full blown fas, and others with fetal alcohol effects/Arnd. They were subjected to fetal alcohol exposure in the womb. Many have borderline themselves, bipolar, add, and Rad...the list goes on unfortunately. Fetal alcohol exposure affects the wiring of the brain. Some of the most nicest, respectful and accepting individuals I've ever met. Many get multiple diagnosees before the final one...it was Fasd to begin with. (Which just stems off of being alcohol affected.)
Dr. G interesting, what's the psychopathic version of bpd? What are the symptoms and how do they differ from the standard bpd diagnose. I have never self harmed, never used drugs and became addicted, (except for some experimentation when i was a teen, but very minor) but I'm categorized in the bpd traits. Many borderlines I talk to have substance abuse problems with drugs use, some don't I guess.
Maybe a difference in low or high functioning? Thoughts...
just read through your post. Exhausted lastnight.
Here's an interesting read, thought you might like to read. The Childhood Psychopath: Bad Seed or Bad Parents?
The more I study and the more I encounter both BPD individuals and sociopathic individuals the more I think that they are far more similar than anyone realizes because one seems to have too much emotion and the other seems to lack it altogether.
The sociopath's "shallow affect" doesn't strike me as an organic defect so much as it seems to be an emotion "kill switch" that has been switched off for a very long time that is reinforced by neurobiological changes. It looks like the sociopath has no emotions but really they've just figured out a way to short circuit the emotions they consider to be unpleasant. Of course there is a price: if you can't risk feeling bad things you can't be rewarded by feeling good things when a situation works out in your favor because that would require a degree of emotional investment that is predicated on the risk of caring about an outcome.
Still- the turmoil that produced a sociopath's need to develop psychological defense mechanisms that act as "kill switch" for future emotions has not been resolved, only repressed by this "solution" to unwanted psychic pain.
My theory is that this is why the sociopath is at least as destructive as the borderline. Unresolved trauma drives both personalities and must periodically be given its due through destructive acts. The borderline can locate their rage but the sociopath simply experiences it without conscious understanding. Both feel better after blowing off some steam. If the sociopath's problem is simply shallow affect- why the rage? It's the one piece of the puzzle that never gets addressed.
Unresolved trauma is the crucible in which each of these personality steles is formed.
Superchick, Fortunately it's not full-blown FAS. Based on the symptoms, I have mild septo-optic dysplasia (SOD). There is malformation of the forebrain in early pregnancy which affects the development of the optic nerves and olfactory bulbs frequently resulting in visual impairment and anosmia. The pituitary is also damaged, causing a wide range of symptoms of varying severity. Sometimes the septum pellucidum is missing, which frequently signals other midline abnormalities in the brain. It's not always caused by alcohol/drug exposure, but that's the only risk factor for me personally. Given my extreme difficulties with feeling visceral pain I think my septum pellucidum is absent. Psychopathy scores were higher in criminals with abnormalities of the septum pellucidum, and I suspect this is one of the reasons my personality is extreme enough for Dr. G to think of it as prototypical sociopathy.
Yes, alcohol exposure definitely increases the risk of mental disorders in people who are genetically susceptible. If society/government really cared about improving mental health, more funding and education would go into preventing fetal alcohol exposure.
Mach, I agree that there are a lot of similarities between borderlines and socios, but not for the same reasons as you. I'm skeptical that even a child's level of neuroplasticity and sensitivity is able to alter brain structure and function to that degree due to dissociating from emotion. Regarding shallow affect, some of my not abused/neglected relatives have shallow emotions. I don't think shallow affect by itself is sufficient to say somebody has a PD or was abused. Inherent shallow affect and emotional repression can look similar if you don't know the person well, but they're definitely not the same thing.
I care about outcomes, but if they don't pan out I don't feel the need to cry over spilled milk. If things work out well I'm happy about it. Perhaps other socios on here could describe how they feel about it?
The one borderline I knew had no ability to locate his rage. Perhaps Superchick and Dr. G could comment on what borderline rage is like from a first person perspective, because it's nothing like socio rage. Why the rage? For me, probably because I have every gene known to man that has been associated with anger and aggression. Frankly, it's probably a good thing I'm a socio, or I'd fly off the handle a lot more. I feel better after blowing off steam to the extent that normal people do.
TL;DR To other socios, do you feel good if an outcome is in your favor? Do you care about outcomes at all? How do you feel about the risk involved in getting a desired outcome?
To the borderlines, what does borderline rage feel like?
I wonder, does the sociopath think logically because he lacks emotions, or does he seem to lack emotions because he thinks more logically than most others. Somehow I feel like it's the latter, that because the way I act and my way of thinking is logical, I see no point in getting emotional in certain situations. When others are emotional and I'm not, almost all the time I can come up with a rational reason for why there's is no point.
As for whether or not I feel good if an outcome is in my favor, I don't know if it's feeling good but sometimes there is a feeling of satisfaction or accomplishment, but it really depends on what we're talking about.
@Superchick: Nice to meet you too. I introduced myself a couple of posts ago, but it probably got lost in the comments. I've been a reader for a few months.
I am sorry to hear that you were sexually assaulted and wish you the best of luck in your therapy and your journey towards overcoming it. I know it's not easy. I, too, am around my 'abusers' and it is not a particularly good experience (mostly because they act as if nothing happened and expect to be able to hug me without me being thoroughly unamused at them :P).
As for your question, I am possibly a sociopath. I meet most of the criteria for a diagnosis except for the criminal background. I was a very well-behaved kid for the most part. That's not to say I have never done anything criminal, just that it wasn't severe enough to warrant getting the police involved, nor was/am I particulary violent. Of course, if someone tried to assault me again, I would probably open their throat with my teeth, but that's because I have such a specific trigger for my anger. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I wasn't sure if I was born like this or made; that's because the sexual abuse started when I was a toddler. I do not remember a transition such as the one you speak of. It must be difficult to remember the person you were and to want to go back to being okay. I guess it's a matter of believing that you *can* be that person again, that it won't consume you and that you are not broken. You can do it, man (err, woman?). I'll be here if you need someone to talk to.
As for your question re: if borderline/narcissism/sociopathy happens as a result of the splitting of the self via trauma (you either shut down all emotions or go crazy with them), I do not know. It looks like Dr. G. thinks sociopaths are born not made, but in my experience, I see it as a possible coping mechanism. For a long time, I pushed that part of me away and convinced myself that I had empathy and even felt some feelings rather strongly. I strived to be a good person until it finally hit me that I was just lying to myself and emulating what I 'should' feel and think like as opposed to what I actually felt (not much, as it turns out). I had the nasty habit of self-censoring my thoughts and 'sanitizing' them. I eventually realized that the empathy I was 'feeling' was not there at all, I simply understood what other people would feel given a situation (up to that point, I had no idea there was a difference between understanding what a person is feeling and actually feeling it). I was actually diagnosed as very functional Asperger's as an adult and was very content because I thought that was what was 'wrong' with me, that was the reason why I couldn't be like other people, even though some of the diagnostic criteria did not apply to me. As soon as I realized that I was lying to myself I conveniently remembered the pet abuse, going out of my way to hurt people that were bothering me, murderous urges, manipulations, lying, etc. The denial was strong in this one.
@Dev: I care about outcomes, too. I have a real issue with feeling happy/content about my achievements, though. I just completed a master's degree and I can report that I get more satisfaction from doing the laundry (clean bedsheets FTW). My mother always teased/criticized me for it. "You can't get excited about anything!" :P If something does not go according to plan, I simply recalibrate the route.
@ Dev, you're very knowledgeable, I commend you for taking the time and effort in concluding it -- in yourself - that you might have fetal alcohol effects. There is something rather extraordinary about you thou. Many individuals with fasd/ partial fas/arnd think outside the box, are genuine to the core, and it’s a gift. Embrace it. The Corpus callosum could be missing, I know a mother who had an alcohol dependency problem when she was pregnant with her little girl. The little girl is missing that part, but like you mentioned the brain is full of plasticity and reroutes itself. Piano playing strengthens the bundle fibers of the Corpus callosum. An MRI will reveal if yours is missing. But I wouldn't worry too much, the brain makes new neuro-pathways all the time. I agree we need to start to fund more programs to prevent fasd. :)
@ Mach, i nodded yes,and YES. well stated as always. :)
@ Vodoo Pork, thank you. I really mean that. Your story touches me inside, really resonates, and your kindness is sweet. You can convey and relate with my story, so nice to not feel alone, for sharing it with us, community really heals the heart i believe. I value how introspective you are about yourself. Your truth -- the questioning inside --what it is you need for yourself and how to fight for your needs with such honour. :-) I have never told anyone this except for my partner, but I feel like I’m safe here, cause it’s a sociopath blog. I tortured a cat 'once' before, put it in the dryer, squeezed it and put it in a bag to wave around. :( Yup, unfortunately, I’m very ashamed of that, would never tell my cat lover friends. But that same cat I fed every single day and took care of it...diligently... weird. It was a stray cat, and I was only entering grade eight at the time. I worked as a waitress on weekends. I was hired at an early age, cuz my dad was a member of that hall. All my cheques went on feeding animals, strays, petting them and showing them care. On my first day of school of grade eight, my parents took that cat away cause they thought it was a nuisance. I was so mad at them for that. I took care of it for so long. My husband hates cats, honestly he would shoot them if he can. o dear. And I really give him hell if he mentions that in front of the kids. He has to watch. But other animals he loves. dogs, horses, etc.. I’ve actually thought of myself bordering between borderline, ocd, aspd, and cyclothymic disorder. My husband really dislikes it when I keep labeling myself, because he sees so much more than labels, but it’s starting to make more sense. My brain needs labels to make sense of things, his doesn’t too much, he just says it works with us. I’ve never met anyone else who gets me like he does, and he loves me in weakness all the more. I believe he's also wavering close to aspd, borderline, and cyclothymic disorder. We compliment one another though, and he’s never bored with me, but Im always full of ideas. I think the suspense keeps him interested, ;) . He also has a moral ethic code, but that’s because he was raised in the “faith.” He’s a very logical thinker, not too emotional, but gets teary-eyed over things that I wouldn’t too much. Weird. He can start tearing up in emotion at the end of the movie, I just know when he starts wiping his tears with his elbows, and I’m like why cant you cry over this and that, or for this person. haha. He always tells me that feelings & the fuzzies don’t mean too much for him, but actions do mean everything. My husband thinks the world of his family and children, and others not too much attachment. He is courteous, bold, kind to others, very fair, but attachments to others, nope not there. Except for us. At funerals I have to tell him, fake it, just mimic emotion. He'd rather not go, there already dead anyway. O dear! I think! ha. My definition of love is changing. Love is → kind, long suffering, patient, protects, trusts, hopes, perseveres. etc. just the good ol’ virtues for me. Looking forward to chatting with you more. Were doing the camping thing out here. Cheers and nights to you all :)
@Superchick: thanks for your reply! Your husband sounds awesome. It's nice how you mention that you complement each other. I don't know much about relationships, but from what I've read, those types are the ones that really last.
Wisdom of the socios: "today" is real, it has happened & will happen. Everything else past is a only a dream. To be back there and "stir & poke" is just folly.
If some people aren't afraid to die, then why do they flee mass shootings, and why do they back away from cliffs, or gasp at close calls. Planned risk taking is one thing. Reacting to unexpected dangers is something else. A decade or so ago, there was a fire at a rock in role concert. Something caught fire, and people fled the building anyway they could. Even James Holmes tried to get away from the scene of his own mass shooting. The fact that he attempted to leave, shows consciouness of guilt. In fact, crazy or not, there has never been a recorded instance of an attack on a person in front of a uniformed police officer.
Some people, yes because they fear death. Others because they don't want to get hurt. If you want to kill me with a bullet to the head, sure go ahead, just make sure you don't miss. If you wanna tie me up and burn me tied to a stick, yah fuck that my ass is going to try to prevent it anyway I can. By the way there's a difference between not wanting to die, and fearing death. I don't want to go to school/work/the beach today, doesn't mean that I'm scared of any of them.
I have to agree with Tii on this one, Anonymous. Just because someone isn't afraid of death, it does not follow that they are going to embrace any and all oportunities to kick the bucket because, hey, there is nothing to be afraid of.
Fleeing your own mass shooting is not consciousness of guilt. It's not being stupid by staying to get caught.
Also, having "some" fear of death is beneficial. It's an anachronistic survival mechanism designed to avoid getting killed by hazards and predators. Not having a fear of death is actually not as good as it sounds. I've stood 30 feet in front of a mass gang versus police shooting and watched out of curiousity and interest instead of ducking for cover. That was a universally stupid reaction, but it happened, and I only know it now intellectualky in hindsight. The flight response just doesn't happen. Not having fear is a double-edged sword.
Psychos only get "more focused" in tense situations, like hyperconcentrated, so they often "forget fear". They are not devoid of fear. Psychos fear meeting a worse psycho than themselves. Psychos are not devoid of real sentimentality; they weep genuinely for themselves. Lets get real. Lets leave the fairytales behind.
Bob, I agree with you 100%. I've been consciously trying to cultivate an automated response to things I should move away from after experiencing too many instances of retrospectively stupid behavior. One thing that's interesting, is if some unknown object suddenly appears in my peripheral vision I reflexively take appropriate action, but if I'm looking at something head-on fight response or investigative behavior is the only thing that happens. Although, after avoiding whatever was in my peripheral vision the only response that comes to mind is to inspect it or get in a fight with it if there isn't some other more pressing objective, so maybe it's not an entirely appropriate response. Have you noticed anything similar in yourself?
The last incident that happened to me involved walking across a busy intersection without paying attention to the lights - when a truck was about to hit me I had actually paused on the road for a second to consciously think about it and decide to move myself. I was annoyed at myself at the lack of attention in putting myself in that situation, but even so in that event it required conscious thinking instead of any reflexive panic or flight mechanism. The lack of a non-conscious reaction/reflex was not beneficial that day.
It has to be said that ME, AKA Jamie Lund sometimes speaks a load of old bollocks. However, Jamie does have fantastic tits. Sociopath or not, with a pair of tits like she has, we need to congratulate her. Despite her not mentioning in her book that she was just an IP Lawyer, which is obviously the most boring form of Law, we need to concentrate on the tits, which are lovely. So Jamie, you have a shit job, working for a shit University, but you do have nice tits. Well done on the tits.
M.E. actually should be loved and appreciated. It is rather sentamental. I don't know whether a self professed sociopath can love like I suggest. You are impressed with M.E,'s body. You want to hold that body next to you. So much that you can feel the beating of her heart. You want to immerse yourself into M.E. Could a fellow sociopath do that LONG RANGE? Is a sociopath ONLY in it for sex? Can a sociopath be a foul weather friend, if there's no obvious payoff? Would cuddling with her on a couch, or brushing her hair out of her eyes be enough even if she wasn't in the mood for sex that night? Or is that just a drawn out waste of time, when there's fun to be had? M.E. is an ENTJ personality. She was born in the Year of the Boar. She is a professional woman. She has a moral compass even if she doesn't always use it. She was raised in a middle class lifestyle, and won't willingly settle for less then that. She sees herself as an intuitive teacher type who likes to guide people. I don't know whether she has ever had a heartfelt "cry" in her entire life, after the breakup of a relationship or the loss of a loved one. M.E. wants appreciation and respect, but maybe there's a feeling of uneasiness. She'd like to relax from the image she crafted for herself, but can she really trust anyone enough to relax with them? Even though her future is 1,000% better then mine, I'm terrified for her.
at times like this I actually support the female sociopath's compulsion to unleash hell upon her "admirers". Not because this is threatening. But because the world is chock full of too much stupid and this moron has clearly done way too much subpar obsessing about ME. That said, because ME is wise enough to do a cost benefit analysis I suspect she will decide that it is not her responsibility to solve the growing worldwide crisis of moronic stalkers.
Being a bigot and a bad speller in 2 consecutive sentences does not indicate a bright future. If you're going to be an asshole, at least TRY to be clever.
Machiavellianempath, Superchick, you have talked more than once about meeting the sw crowd face to face. I am curious, how would your family and friends react to this? Would you tell them? Do any of your close ones know you are participating on this site? The questions are for everybody here, sociopath or not. Three of my close ones know I participate. They think it is a bit weird, but they don't try to discourage me.
I think they understand my reasoning that the devils you now are better than the devils you don't in the sense that none is pretending to be above reproach if they dare to interact on SW ;). My current feeling is that you are far more likely to get f---ed up the ass by a churchgoing malignant narcissist than anyone on SW.
Wow you make it sound like it's a dirty little secret :P Hmm well I have professional interests in this area, and I'm not sure really if anyone I know knows I visit this site or not.
Dirty little secret? Well, kind of. I have been made to feel that my friendship with the sociopath I know is unnatural and unhealthy. Many times. Both by people who know him and people who do not. So yes. I am at best tentative about talking to others about it.
Nope, no one knows that I'm on here. No one asked so there's really no reason to tell, I'm old enough to choose what sites I want to frequent anyways. And, I don't think anyone would be surprised or care if I told them that I come on this blog, I tend to be into weird things so... I mean as long as I don't put my address or private info or anything.
Mach, lol about the church going malignant narcissist. I know exactly what you mean, not first hand but second hand. A very close friend of mine was married to one for more than 2 decades. The psychiatrists used the term narcissist pervert, but that was not in North America so I am not sure the terminology applies here. I helped her through the separation and the recovery. She is doing great now. At the time, though, she actually had to check herself in a psychiatric hospital because she was so close to suicide. She had some sort of a manic, very agitated depression. Lost an enormous amount of weight and could not sleep anymore. And she is one of the strongest, most giving and level headed woman I know. Yep, they can f**** you up all right!
No one knows I'm here, either. I don't see the need to tell anyone. My friends would probably be unsurprised because we have discussed murder and burial patterns in sociopaths/psychopaths as an area of forensic study before, so I have a good alibi: just digging a bit deeper.
My partner and eldest know, and a few friends. I try to knock down the stigma of sociopathy. My hubby just laughs at me most of the time. How everything gets psychoanalyzed in my mind. I tell him things I learnt, how to see things with another angle, he listens to me, smiles.
hmmm i think he'd be ok with it. I’m honest with him about everything thou. Are topic this weak concluded with me, "honey, just because your very honest with me, doesn't make things right." Hmm got me really thinking...my moral compass has been a little off lately.
But a weekend to meet some of you in separate hotel rooms why not? fun, with boundaries of course. :)
I wonder if ME would be interested. Would be nice to meet her aswell.
Watch out for cafe-owners that starts "chatting up" their customers, leaves work inside to sit at tables next to them on the sunny patio! Thats like fins circling a tiny canoe on deep water. No new book? How about one aiming to upset experts by tickling the superhero-theme, stating the most forbidden, the big no-no: that controlled, intelligent psychopaths are nietzschean "ubermenchen"? This will piss many writing moralists off, they will get so mad by reading this they´ll likely chew carpets. They´ll rage, scream obscenities, foam at the mouth & spit/shit out new tomes on fresh psychopathic daemons in human shape..
Some of the posts on this thread are priceless, even when I don't know whether to agree with them or not.
Has anyone thought about writing a book -- sort of a Socratic dialog based on extracted exchanges in this blog, including some of the insults, ad hominems to lend authenticity... but mostly the respect (as it appears) for different points of view?
@Mach "Bottom line- when empaths get mad that a sociopath doesn't apologize it has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with primal emotions like rage and fear that social animals are hard wired to feel when trust breaks down."
Couldn't agree more. When you change the places of the words empath and sociopath in this sentence (when sociopaths get mad at empaths for not apologizing...) is it often true still, or is it something else? Do sociopaths get mad at empaths for not apologizing? Well I guess so since it amounts to a loss of control. But I don't know.
About trauma and sociopathy:
@Dev "Personally, I don't believe there is a self to split and have never had the sensation of a self. I think people can dissociate due to trauma, which probably feels like the self splitting if you have a sensation of self. "
This is an amazing remark. Can I ask what is it you experience rather than a sensation of self?
@Mach maybe the intensity of narcissistic or psychopathic rage ("why all the rage") is there because rage is one of the base, animalistic emotions so if one does not have access to other ones, then at least one feels alive this way. It's also about power, manipulation and all that... It could even be fake most times.
Unresolved trauma sure can lead to rage and to personality disorders. I'm not sure though that all sociopaths experienced trauma in their childhood, unless you consider that being born into a world with a vastly different neurological imprint and then having to cope with that finality as a child is traumatic, even if the environment is by all reasonable standards nurturing for a neurotypical child.
From my perspective, sociopathy doesn't necessarily go through the crucible of unresolved trauma.
Are they recognizing each other to share good news or decide who is edible who is not?
ReplyDeleteHow about glowing forehead for those who are born without much of an amygdala?
Yep, we exchange information about teriyaki flavored empaths.
DeleteOnly if there is scallion and pineapple involved.
DeleteYeah, I'm in the flavor business...
Lol
DeleteSome folks may have hollow caves in their soul & radiate with madness? It takes one to know one.
ReplyDeleteThe gravest accusation against sociopaths from the "empath-world" seems to be that "aware socios" are said to be very satisfied with their mental condition; if they could remove their psychopathy by pushing a button, they would not do so. Sick folks enjoying their disease! Isn´t this somehow a little unfair: how many empaths would remove "supernatural gifts" they discovered one morning: if they could read others minds or see through walls? Most likely not many. All those movies about superheroes, what are they really about? Answer: human longing to be godlike. But socios are not allowed to have that wish. Somehow they are supposed to daydream about other things..
ReplyDeleteHumans are just fragile souls who fear the outer world. The truth is that people who have personality "disorders" are either "blessed" with superpowers or a "curse". It all depends if the person wants to take the advantges his personality disorder has to offer or just whine about being born with it. Its you who make your world, you can decide if you want to be a victim of the events or master the events around you and rise to the top. Don't complain about your personality disorder, just use its advantages and you might even become the "super hero" of your reality.
ReplyDeleteSigh...this is what I try to teach borderlines, but most of them wanna chop my head of as a result. It seems like only the educated ones who are professionals are receptive to what I have to say. Personally, I don't suffer my borderline, I have fun with it, and I try to use all my characteristics to my advantage.
DeleteWell said, Anonymous0750PM. Attitude is what drives your life. Discover what makes you different from others, and take advantage of it. Dr. Ginger, we need more psychologists who think along the same line you do. Perhaps you should look into teaching psychology and open people's minds?
DeleteThanks oldandwise : )I tend to think outside the box, and challenge some of the ideas in the field of psychology. A lot of these individuals get labeled as critical or radical psychologists. There’s some interesting psychology history there such as the radical psychology network founded by Dennis Fox and Isaac Prilleltensky, if you’re ever interested in looking in to it. You may not agree with everything they have to say, but it’s certainly thought provoking.
DeleteOh my god. Im DYING!! This "sociopath" world just gets dumber & dumber. This is embarrassing. Seriously...are you guys all fetal alcohol tards or???
ReplyDeleteSorry to read your high intellectual standards have not been catered to, this make many of the denizens of this den truly heartbroken; how can they go on after such justified, balanced correction?
DeleteCalm down aspie, it is only a quote.
DeleteWhat the hell is this?
ReplyDeleteHello, Young and Foolish! Nice to see you again. Have you moved to the new country yet?
DeleteNo, but I've just bought my train tickets! Thanks for asking; sorry I didn't reply sooner.
Deletehaha! :) you two....
Delete"We see the world as WE are, NOT how it actually is."
ReplyDeleteThat is why there is such a diversity of opinions.
Many want to be "happy." There is a definate "science" of happiness.
Most people assume if they get what they want they can be "happy."
Sure, but only for a short time.
Just getting what you want is NOT a long range way to be happy, because
the goal post always moves. To be happy, the only thing you need to
understand is that ATTITUDE is EVERYTHING. The only thing that everyone has in common is fear of death. You are miserable by your
own REACTION to outcomes that you feel MUST happen. You are caught
off guard by unexpected results, and you REPLAY in your mind the past
events.
Once you know that "There is no difference between the SEER and the
things seen, you will NOT surcome to negativity, because it's not the
outer event that's "bad," but your interpetuation of the event.
A lot of wisdom in your post. Attitude is everything, fear of death shared by all, poor reactions to undesirable, unexpected events, replaying past negative events and potential future negative events. Just listing what you said, and adding the last one.
DeleteSeer defines what's seen, and may err on either side. Perceive negative when it's not there (most folks, empath/non-empath), or perceive positive when it's not there (sheep facing the wolf). Words or behavior or both?
This site is very educational in the sense that we share our views without holding back. The only threat is those who try to shut opinions up as opposed to asking more questions to understand better when the other side appears wrong. I was guilty of this when I first got here. Loved fighting the UKan character but later realized I learned a lot from him. He had a way of showcasing the narcissists and breaking them down.
Then there were those I really liked as people no matter what their weaknesses or bad sides were, such as NotMe, Haven, Post. I miss all of them.
Studies show we don't see people the way they are, we see our OWN reaction to them.
DeleteI agree with pretty much everything you said except for one "the only thing that people have in common is the fear of death". Even as a kid I never understood why people fear death. As a Christian surrounded by other Christians it made even less since. Same goes for people being sad when others die, why cry or feel sad about it?
DeleteIts grief. People don't realize that you can grieve and then stop grieving and move on. I can always rest assured that what's done is done.
DeleteAlso known as self-pity.
DeleteBut what is there to grieve? The way I see it the dead should be the ones grieving for the people they leave behind.
DeleteI've never grieved for anyone.
DeletePity? No not one of my forte. Self pity? Don't even mention it.
DeleteThere's this quote from one of my favorite minds, that I really like and have begun to agree with:
"Pity is the most agreeable feeling among those who have little pride and no prospects of great conquests." -Friedrich Nietzsche.
I've never felt any fear of death, despite not believing in an afterlife/re-incarnation and experiencing some situations that had a high risk of death. I don't do the grieving thing either. I'd have to have an emotional attachment to the person to be upset. Agree with Tii about it not making much sense in a Christian context. If they floated off to heaven shouldn't you be happy for them? Shouldn't you be celebrating and looking forward to when it's your turn?
DeleteGrief and self-pity are 2 very different things. I think to understand the concept of grieving you have to first understand the concept of missing a person. When you miss a person, there is hope and future expectation of seeing that person in the future. When you grieve, you go through the process of killing that hope. Nothing like that with self pity.
DeleteWell can't say that I've ever really missed a person. There have been moments when I look through facebook (the few times I do) and see someone's picture and think, "hmm s/he is pretty cool, wiuld be nice if we met again" but, same as Dev, I've never longed for a person.
DeleteChristians are just the most foolish ones I see in this matter (...and a few others). Everyone wants to go to Heaven but none of them want to die. Whatever your belief, I see no point in fearing death. Fear of going to Hell makes sense, but if you're a person of faith, you already know how to avoid that. So then we're back at why should you fear death?
Fearing death is a bit superfluous. Here, now, I know what exists and what could happen next. It's a life where the boundaries of existence are known, where each day I may experience something new or interesting. Having this life end through death outside of old age means cutting short the trip to the proverbial amusement park, because once you leave the park you don't get to come back in. It would be a waste to cut the trip short, good rides and bad. Maybe there is life after death, or maybe there isn't. Either way, the day pass for this park hasn't expired yet. There is no rush to leave, but if circumstances outside of your control force you to go, it would be disappointing.
DeleteI am certainly not a sociopath, and have been raised a Catholic, but i do not fear death. Not here, not now in the comfort of my chair. If it faced me in a dark alley somewhere that would be different I am sure.
DeleteBut I don't want to die and I don't often put myself at risk, though I have done stupid things in the past, even recently. I don't want to die mainly because I enjoy life and because it would inconvenience the people around me, my family in particular. I have told them recently: if I die doing one of my stupid things, don't feel sorry for me...
I don't fear death, but I fear dying. I fear the physical pain of dying and I fear being a burden to the people around me if I take too long to die, as well as losing my dignity. I would certainly welcome the option of euthanasia for myself.
I witnessed death once. Somebody very close to me. I was with her day and night for her last few days. She was asking for ways to speed it up. In turn, I actually asked the doctors and nurses. But there was nothing that could legally be done, not in the country where I was anyway. I know for a fact that in some countries, when you take care of a dying person at home and they are on morphine to relieve the pain, the medical staff can show you how to make the person pass away faster, if they like you and trust you enough. They actually don't say it, but they tell you what NOT to do... I find it so cruel that our laws prevent us from helping a person die humanely. We give our pets better deaths than we give ourselves. Isn't it ironic?
Well that is the extent of human stupidity. Dying in pain and preferring to end it fast and easy. Nope sorry. You find your life too much to bear, everything is horrible for you, you have no money and nothing to live for, so you try suicide but fail. How could you attempt such vile, immoral thing as suicide, that against the law! Here's a fine to add to everything else that fucked up in your life.
DeleteLooking at ME's latest tweet. Isn't it funny how people don't seem to realize this? Perception is everything.
ReplyDelete"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". So true.
DeleteDid you see her tweet? "Good people can do cruel things and feel certain that the rules justified them." I can give so many examples of people who did damage on some level or another and felt it was justified.
DeleteAh, no I had not read the tweet. But yes, it is true that people who view themselves as good, holier than thee type of thing, can be cruel and feel they are in the right. Probably the main reason I left the catholic church a loonog time ago. As for examples, I'd love to hear some. They are bound to raise a few hair on my neck.
DeleteWars for example, or killing in the name of religion. Something more on a smaller scale that I could use as an example would be a borderline client that I was working with who would get very upset whenever her boyfriend would go out with his friends. It would drive her insane, and so one night when he went out she slashed his tires. She felt justified in doing so because she felt that it was him who was responsible for her intense emotions. I originally started doing cbt with her, but she wasn’t responding to it, and then I started implementing DBT which she responded to right away, and she was able to gain a lot of control over her intense emotions, and behaviors. She stopped trying to control him, and was quite relaxed after that whenever he would go out, and instead focused on taking care whatever she needed to care of, or meeting up with friends or family of her own.
DeleteCbt and dbt. I will have to read up in these. But it sounds like you did her and her relationship a lot of good. If you love somebody, set them free. Sting. All right, perhaps I am showing the old in OldAndWise.. Anybody?? Anybody? ...
DeleteWhat I mostly find confusing - time and time again - is the implication that neuro-typicals are "weaker" due to their innate wiring whereas socios are "stronger". Then, this reasoning usually goes on to a rant about how neuro-typicals shun socios for the way they are. not to say this isn't true - it does happen - but why shun neuro-typicals? as someone "normal" who has had involvement with socios, im not clear on why anyone is better than anyone. its honestly just different.
ReplyDeletei love that i experience the world the way that i do. many self-aware socios love that they experience the world the way they do. no socio will ever REALLY understand the way my life is fulfilling due to my wiring, and i will never understand the way your life makes socios feel.
BYE
Sociopaths don't have an option, statistically speaking, of shunning normal people. But all that hand-wringing does seem like wasted energy.
DeleteEmpaths also seem to really hate that socios "are not sorry". Even if the psycho is really cute & law abiding, "not being sorry" for this or that angers empaths. Accidently spilled juice: "-Oh no, I cannot believe it. Has not my clumsiness caused enough grief?" How it should sound. Most passion-related "ruckus" seem to be understandable. Just don´t sit there silent, morose & dead-pan, wiping that juice..
ReplyDeleteUse the manners your mother taught you. When you offend someone or a society by criminal action, its polite to say sorry and to be introspective of how your behaviour and personal actions can affect the citizens around you. You spill juice, you clean it up, lol. You don't have to have fuzzy feelings about a situation. We seem to have an abundance of apathy when dealing with people... that's why our school system now has empathy programs in grade school (to teach and show children because were loosing good-ethical-virtues for our fellowman.) Even sociopaths have a good supply of cognitive empathy. There's no excuse for the sociopath or the empath to use polite mannerism.
DeleteCharity may begin at home but psychopathy blooms at school. Most apple-cheeked teachers would flinch with horror if they saw the mental development their activities causes in young socios. That´s the place where that inner "welding flame" often is lit..
DeleteI can definitely see it in bullying blooming from there, if its tolerated in the school system, but most schools have zero tolerance for that now.
DeleteBy what activities do you mean. Im curious?
in my previous post, i meant * There's no excuse for the sociopath or the empath to NOT use polite mannerism.* typo on my part. :)
In grade school I was very smart, and dealing with teachers infuriated me.
DeleteCould bullying exacerbate a psychopath's inherent propensity for bad behavior? Yes, but I don't think zero tolerance would do much to stop it. Zero tolerance hadn't come on the scene yet when I went to school, if it had I think it might have made it worse actually. I lost interest in tormenting people, but zero tolerance would've seemed like a challenge so I might have continued. Anyway, they have to catch you bullying, and that's easier said than done with psychological abuse.
Deleteto go back to the "empaths are angry because sociopaths are not sorry"-
Deletehere's a rational explanation of where that "outrage" comes from.
In most meaningful relationships that require cooperation, there is an assumption that both parties have a stake in seeing a positive outcome as a payoff for cooperative acts. Multiple reward cycles of this expectation being fulfilled lead to trust whether that be on a professional or personal level.
Trust enables cooperation to proceed with much less effort than two wary strangers would be required to invest to reach a similar level of collective benefit. Trust is valuable less because it is moral and more because it's labor saving to trust other people. Think of the person capable of delegating in contrast with the micromanager. Micromanagers don't trust.
When a sociopath plays someone for a fool and that person realizes they've been had, it's more than the loss of whatever was at stake. What's lost is their ability to trust others so their ability to conduct themselves efficiently is greatly compromised.
If a sociopath can recognize that the wronged empath is angry about more than just the loss of shared benefit they will observe that the empath is really quite devastated on a personal level that they have been stripped of trust. That's why making amends on a practical level is rarely effective in writing a wrong.
The perceived lack of a genuine apology from the sociopath to the empath is an important piece of the puzzle of why some sociopaths tend to be marginalized more than others. The stupid sociopath lets their pride get in the way of offering the other party recognition that what was stolen in a way that seems apologetic and remorseful. The smart sociopath recognizes that in expressing regret and simultaneous respect for the victim's basic dignity they defuse the time bomb of resentment the empath is left with after the experience of being defrauded.
Think about popular sociopaths in movies/tv. We like Hannibal Lechter for being civilized and gracious even as he is being brutal. That's because he is inflicting damage without destroying trust in basic human connection in a callous manner. No warmth motivates this pattern, just a savvy understanding that it's self protective to express regret when an empath identifies you a the source of their trouble.
Bottom line- when empaths get mad that a sociopath doesn't apologize it has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with primal emotions like rage and fear that social animals are hard wired to feel when trust breaks down.
True Dev, we'll stated. Pychological abuse goes un-noticed too much of the time and hard to spot.
DeleteI've never been so much of a bully, but I can recognize that the bully has some sort of deep trauma inside and they project and deflect to tolerate their inner turmoil inside, maybe without even realizing it. I've had to kick ass in grade 4. My bully beat me up everyday after school for a short period of time.
It was my best friend at that time who pulled me aside, and said FIGHT or he will keep targeting you. My legs were full of bruises from him.
I beat the shit out of him so bad the next day after school that he never showed up to school the next two days. Years later he said he had a deep crush on me. I betcha he was in an environment that witness domestic violence and that's how he roled unfortunately. I had to face my bully spot on, and as sad as it sounds beat him. I earned respect and he never once touched me again after that.
Well said Mach -a - rooh !! How ya doing darling?
pretty good- lots of hands on parenting required for my younger three children.
Deletemissing the SW crowd as I have been offline- it makes me wish we could all meet in person someday (cue eye roll from most of you) - I do feel a fondness for the personalities here. As much as I understand that there is always a degree of self presentation on the internet I also find the fact that most of you are willing to discuss the shadow sides of your nature to be very helpful as I come to grips with my own dark side…
cheers to all of you :)
Me and my eldest have a count down till school starts, please come quickly, quicker ;) cuz it's sure busy with the kids at home. July went fast and school supplies I shall start piling in the waygon soon.
DeleteYa would be kinda neat to meat up. Maybe a group of us would be interested sometime...
Cheers back at cha. :)
Would be cool to meet up for a weekend. Maybe a group of us would be interested in doing that sometime.
^ Why I repeated myself there... IDK. HA! Nights, tuckered.
DeleteMachiavellianempath, I really like what you wrote about trust. Very insightful and well written. It makes so much sense when you put it like this. I keep thinking about it... trust is in my mind fundamental to friendship and other relationships.
DeleteIn what way(s) can a sociopath be trusted? I have some answers I came up with that seem to work for me, but I was wondering what everybody else thought.
A less evolved sociopath can be trusted to act as a small child might in response to both positive and negative stimuli.
DeleteAn evolved (prosocial) sociopath can be trusted to act in their own long term best interest. If this sociopath happens to possess a modicum of conscientiousness (it's not typical for antisocial personalities but you do see it fairly frequently because personalities are so unique) then you will likely see a very Machiavellian personality whose manipulative powers are well developed. So to trust someone like this, you must be confident that you know them well enough to identify their self interest. This is not as easy as it might seem because personalities like this do not want to be known.
The key to trusting that a sociopath will "deliver" on an expectation is to make sure that expectation never exists outside the range of the sociopath's self interest.
Dumb sociopaths are easier to work with because they are more transparent.
But smart sociopaths can also be excellent allies if you take the time to really understand what they want (rather than just trusting the impression they deliberately create) because they tend to be free thinkers who are far more open to considering unconventional solutions to problems that stymie the average individual who is handicapped by neurosis.
Bottom line: You can trust that unsophisticated sociopaths are easily manipulated if you have the right reward and properly account for confounding variables. You can trust that a smart sociopath is very willing to change limiting rules of whatever game/societal construct is being accessed if they perceive that it is in their self interest to do so.
People are wary of sociopaths because they can not "trust" them. But perhaps that's just a morality heavy way of saying "I can't predict their behavior therefore I feel anxious because I can not control them".
Sociopaths simply need to be rewarded in a way that is agreeable to their interests. If you deal with a sociopath on that level you will likely have no problem. That said, if you haven't done your homework well enough to know what they actually want (as opposed to what they say they want) then you are likely to be sabotaged. But if you believe someone to be a sociopath and still choose to enter into a shared effort with them- that's your bad, not theirs. A tiger has stripes. If you can accept that, then you can "trust" a sociopath.
Just never make the mistake of underestimating one or you might as well just give them the keys to your personal kingdom.
The key to getting most people to deliver is to ensure the expectation exists within the range of their self interest. If that weren't so, then the threat of getting fired for under-performing or getting a citation for breaking a law wouldn't need to exist. These things exist to alter people's range of self interest and channel the efforts of multiple individuals in the same direction, thereby making society possible. In this regard, the only difference between a socio and everyone else is that the socio doesn't feel any shame, guilt, or fear for breaking the societal self interest modifiers. This leads to the lack of trust due to lack of control you mention.
DeleteInteresting. I believe we might exude some kind of invisible and inaudible waves. As an example, have you tried to look at somebody in their car when stopped at a traffic light? Even if you are not in their field of vision, they will sometimes sense it and turn their eyes towards you. Has any you experienced the same thing?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure whether they are waves or whatnot, could be or maybe some sort of vibration (I guess those would count as waves too). But yah it's almost like a super soft warm marshmallowy feeling on the sode of your face where the stare is coming from.
DeleteAhahah, I felt the sweet vibes emanating from the screen even before I read your comment. Sugar freak!
DeleteHahah, well the way I see it, sugar might be one of the few good things about our world. Definitely one of my favorite.
Deletenot if given in excess to dependent children. ;)
DeleteIt's called telepathy and its real.
ReplyDeleteI was actually obsessed with biology, particularly marine biology as a kid. I once visited one of those underwater facilities where you can view a coral reef as is, an aquarium of some sort, submerged under water. I already knew all the fish swimming there, how they feed, breed and whatnot. I was practically giving a tour to my parents and their friends who were on the trip with us... And then a group of tourists tuned in. See, they had these speaker thingies that'd have all the fish there in a data base, you'd just type in the code of the fish from a catalog and it'd tell you the story - the story I already knew. The tourists started clustering around me and listen - the staff of the facility were getting pissed 'cause that means the tourists wouldn't rent these damn devices and started giving me dirty looks. Ha ha. I was 11, for me it was "anarchy". How could I only amplify it and piss them off more? Easy, I spoken 4 languages back then...
ReplyDelete...But back to the luminous issue. Some fish do it because it attracts other life forms, of the edible variety. The angler fish, for example. Speaking of the angler fish, look up on how it mates. I got a cousin like that. Ha ha.
What happened to the forum?
ReplyDeleteWatched bu caps, maybe?
DeletePerhaps you two anonymous do not understand the concept of "high functioning". How long have you been reading and participating?
DeleteSee how M.E. is an "intutive?" She IS NOT a strictly "nuts and bolts"
ReplyDeletetype. She incorporates and compehends "intangable" concepts-"ideals."
Could this be from her Mormon upbringing? Educators are intutives.
Now take a "base" cunning sociopath, like some of these "reality T.V. gals." Completely shallow. Look, lust, and grab. The bottom tangable
line.
A "basic" sociopath is Extraverted. (How did aspergers folks get lumped
under the sociopath umbrella?) He is sensory. (He works and deals in the
material world.) He is a dispassionate thinker "C'est La Vie," (That's how
the Manendez brothers reacted to their parents deaths.) He is "percieving." "Don't put any time restrictions on me. The job will get done." I hate 9 to 5." Another words, the profitable end justifies the means. Get right to the point! The "boring" empathy, laggardly wussy,
is incapable of understanding, so they can be used and disgarded.
Is M.E. one of these? Only to the extent that she is a thinking person.
M.E. is "clinical." She doesn't like wasting her time either. But she is
ENTJ. The people who say that Myers Briggs is a load of crap simply don't
know what they are talking about. M.E. herself is proof. And M.E. is no
sociopath.
BTW, fear of death IS instictual. I have never seen people sit pat in a
structure that catches fire. Everybody flees. Male, female, old, young,
liberail, conservative, even terminal Cancer patient, they all flee.
What part of "just cuz" not being a legit reason did you not understand? Still, I guess its progress compared to the zodiac shit used before.
DeleteYou make absolutely no sense. I have never read such a jumble of badly spelt nonsense.
DeleteNow, with regards to fear of death, I strongly disagree. Personally, I once got pissed off with the pharmacy telling me that I was not allowed to buy more than 2 packets of paracetamol at the same time. I had no intention of killing myself, but got so annoyed with the jobsworth attitude that I set out to prove her wrong that 2 packets of 18 500 mg paracetamol were not enough to kill. I therefore took all 36 tablets together with a load of booze in a pub across the road. I did get very sick, and sent to emergency where I vomited more than ever in my life, but much to my annoyance was proven wrong. I do not in any way fear death. I realise through logical thinking that what I did was really stupid, but I still have a niggling annoyance that the jobsworth idiot who refused to sell me the 3rd packet turned out to be right, (even though if she would have sold it to me, I wouldn't have taken an overdose). I also know that I obviously could have just come back after purchasing the first 2 packets and bought more, but this is exactly why I was annoyed.
Death has never held any fear for me. I am quite frankly amazed that I managed to get to 38 years of age despite this.
If I were a terminal cancer patient I would flee a burning building because that's an extremely painful way to die. Additionally, you might not die. Then you get stuck in the burn center for who knows how long. Sitting in a burning building is just dumb, fear of death is not required for self-preservation.
DeleteAnd I have no idea why you think people with Asperger's are in the same category as socios.
I have no fea of death. Place a gun to my head while showing body language that tells me that you won't pull the trigger and I might actually taunt you enough that you actually pull it. Of course a bastard stupid and didn't know his place enough to attack me should know that I would make sure to leave evidence against him after I die (a little fuck you present). If I see that you have the intent to shoot I would probably try and make the person shoot me somewhere that would take me a bit of time to die, so that I can leave a message after he leaves (I like to believe that I would be capable of overcoming the pain and doing so) that police could use against him. Or since I'm bound to die I might also try to convince myself that I'm capable of fighting off a mugger, and so fight him and kill him myself in a way that would take long enough for me to maje him regret it and feel stupid.
DeleteBurning building on the other hand... yah thanks but I'll pass. I would rather not have to feel and smell my own flesh burning while my skin melts, like cheese, off of me.
To other sociopaths,
DeleteYou go skydiving and when you open your parachute you realize that you have a hole that will only allow you to survive the fall but, you won't make it out without extreme pain and being permanently paralyzed. What do you do? One, let it happen, at least you will be alive? Or, two, cut the chute loose and have an awesome couple seconds or free fall before you maneuver your body around to make suke you fall directly on you head and that it's an instant kill? Or, three a different answer? What would you do in that situation and why?
I would live with paralysis over death. Besides, being in a wheelchair isn't completely bad - there are benefits (sympathy and social support programs).
DeleteI suppose I'd probably pick paralysis. If it were a real life situation where I couldn't know the possible outcomes I would definitely not cut the parachute.
DeleteI think I would have cut the chute. Being paralyzed would not work with my life style, and hobbies. Plus I get a few seconds of real freedom if I cut myself loose. Plus I really wonder what thoughts would come to my mind on my way down when it's sure that those are my last moments.
DeleteIn Huna, psychic phenomena are considered as extensions of our normal senses and not as something completely distinct and "supranormal." In this view psychic phenomena go on all the time in everyone's life, but bcause of prejudiced beliefs they are mostly ignored unless they are dramatic. Sometimes they are allowed to sneak into notice as hunches, intuition, inspiration, and coincidence.
ReplyDeleteCorrelating Huna as closely as possible with Western terminology:
Telepathy is an extension of our sense of hearing and ability for speech;
Clairvoyance is an extension of our sense of sight;
Psychokinesis is an extension of our sense of touch and our ability to physically affect our environment;
Divination (precognition) is an extension of our ability to estimate probabilities and make educated guesses about future events.
Life is just void and emptyness.
ReplyDeleteHumans are the most wild animals on the earth because we use our brain to keep killing and destroying each other physically or verbally .
If there is a "God" why he dont put us, Humanity, out of its misery?
It would be the best for the entire universe and other more decent species.
Divinity is not an order taker.
DeleteMaybe God is a sociopath, and enjoys watching the mayhem.
Deletewell HE made us mortal for a reason ; )
DeleteIsn't that the question...? Is He a cynical sadist who enjoys it all? Is He a carefree nonchalant observer who won't interfere and doesnt care about it? Or is He trying to prove that we can be the perfect creatures that He originally created and that even with all our fault we can be good because we are His children, and have been created in His image? Is He a complete narcissist who only created us so that we live to praise Him and adore Him? Or has God destroyed Himself to test the limits of His omnipotence and omniscience, since a universe without Himself would be the only thing He wouldn't know (if he had such a thing), and we are the remaining fragments of his consciousness, continuously growing from dust, to stars, to planets, microbes, animals, and humans we are, growing bigger and bigger accumulating millenias of information into us until we once again become the original great being that is God (rough interpretation... check out "God's Debris" awesome novel). Or arz we just waisting our time wondering about something that actually doesn't exist, and there is and has never been a God? "Is man God's blunder, or is God's man blunder," -Nietzsche. I know my answer I guess it's up to each one of us to figure out his own. Either way the way you live your life should be a reflection of yourself not what you were told.
Delete"Is man God's blunder, or is God man's blunder"***
DeleteUm...God is fictional.
DeleteGood questions Tii, I often ask those same questions about God. Well stated.
DeleteLuke 17:21 KJV "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." -Jesus Christ
Delete^ very true, i always admired that piece of scripture.
DeleteRather Source is like a combo between a loving mother and a curious, experimental scientist (Source, like us, is both Feminine and Masculine, and both "right and left brained", where do we think we received these archetypal traits?). Source set up certain laws and conditions, released freewilled, self aware aspects of itself out, and said, "go have fun and learn, experience each other, just remember though, while you have freeewill, there are consequences to your choices. I long for your return and will know joy beyond joy when you do, but you must choose me of your own volition--i cannot and will not force you."
DeleteThat occasionally some aberrations occur, is part of the experiment, but Source longs for and hopes that all come back--that's the loving mother part of it.
However, it will not ever force or rush the process, for that would negate freewill. Source wants us to choose it and Unity Consciousness in general, of our own freewill. But like i said, there is a catch 22 in the system. The more you choose "un Sourceness" the more you tend to suffer. The more you choose Sourceness, the more at peace, more joyous you tend to become. In a sense, there is a reward system built in. Why do you think the huge majority of people and "Souls" are not socio or psychopathic, and are trying to evolve? Doesn't this answer itself?
I've seen it in my own life and self, the more attuned to Love and positivity on all levels i become, the more life feels and seems positive on all levels. It's the ultimate "high".
However, Source does partake in guiding it's Creation, if albeit indirectly. It does so through us, the individualized, freewilled aspects talked about earlier, or more simply, through more awakened and mature fellow siblings. These we could call "Retrievers". They went through the same process of experiencing the temporary "disconnection" or separation, but decided to choose Source and Sourceness. Some have fully consciously re-merged and others are relatively close to same.
These are the active parts of Source that try to affect positive change within the Whole, guided by the Love and awareness of Oneness that attunement to Source Consciousness facilitates.
We who are consciously of (and choose) Source, love you, all of you unconditionally. However, that doesn't mean we like what you do or what you choose, but we know we all have had learning pangs and have strayed from the path of original reality--that some stray much more than others is of no real significance--stray is stray and we all have been there. We hope all of you eventually choose to change your choices and path so that you can know the joy, at peaceness, and sense of Home that we know and enjoy.
We love you more than you can know, and indeed, more than you love yourselves, because we see who and what you really are, and who and what you really are, is much bigger and more grand than you currently can conceive. But you must be reborn in Fire, after being washed in Water, and only you ultimately can initiate that process, and we won't lie, it's painful as hell at first, but it's more than worth it. May not seem that way now, but, it is.
I was curious about other’s backgrounds who visit this site who identify as being sociopathic. Even though I can see a lot of ASPD characteristics in a lot of commenters, I also can’t help but notice differences in personalities too, and I’m wondering if it’s the different backgrounds and life experiences that would account for it. Dev is exactly what I think of when I think of a sociopath. I can’t help but think of the Angelina Jolie character in Girl Interrupted. If some of you wouldn’t mind sharing I would be curious to know about your family history and upbringing.
ReplyDeleteI'll bite.
DeleteI have a possibly BPD mother, a narcissist father and an older, possibly narcissist/psychopathic brother. None of them have official diagnoses because that would imply that they are less than perfect. I don't have an official diagnosis because I am not stupid.
The relationship between my mother and brother is best described as that of Norma and Norman Bates from 'Psycho' (or, more accurately, from the TV spinoff, 'Bates Motel'). The relationship between my mother and father is that of passive-aggressive, just-waiting-for-you-to-drop-dead-so-I-get-my-cut-of-the-money contempt. My mother has tried to kill both me and my father (basically murder by neglect, it's not like she chased us with knives or anything :P, but there was a very real chance that we'd both die and she chose to do nothing).
The relationship between me and my mother is strained, since she insists on having a daughter and I insist on not being abused. From my side of things, I do not consider (nor do I remember ever considering) her a mother; same goes with the other members of my immediate family.
The only way my father can relate to women is sexually, so he crosses boundaries often in his quest to have a relationship with me; although he lived with us while I was growing up, he was mostly absent ('working late', partying). My first conversation with him was at age 17. I get the impression that he does not think much of women in general, although he expresses pride in me sometimes (as long as he can claim that my achievements are all thanks to him, duh :P). The rest of the time, he feels entitled to making lewd comments on my body and asking me personal questions such as my sexual orientation and the reason why I don't have a partner (which he sees as a failure on my part). He gets very angry if he feels like I am not being the loving, dutiful, respectful daughter that he deserves and that he can parade around in front of his equally crude friends. He has the annoying habit of telling me he 'loves' me just to hear it said back to him, something that I have also experienced with my mother and brother.
My relationship with my brother is one of mutual tolerance, although he holds me to a greater degree of contempt compared to things on my end. He reminds me of the character of Walter White around the third season of 'Breaking Bad' in that he is obsessed with power and wealth, will say anything to get his way, is impulsive, paranoid and thinks he is a misunderstood genius (with everyone else, obviously, being way below his level). And in his mind, I am Jesse Pinkman.
(continued because I just kept on and on)
DeleteI have the dubious pleasure of being the scapegoat of my family. They flip-flop between holding me in a pedestal and trying to tear me down by projecting all their insecurities on me. This does not really say anything substantial about me, nor did I blame myself for conflicts at our house while I was growing up. I honestly still don't see how I could be all that they accused me of. I'm not *that* interesting. However, I thought I was clever enough to figure out how to fix everything that was wrong in our relationship when I was younger. I really didn't see that the rules kept changing (*Admiral Ackbar face* IT'S A TRAP) and that, my family being made up of severely overemotional people governed mostly by fear, there was no underlying logic to their actions.
I have memories of being 'different' ever since I was in kindergarden, although it must not have helped that I was sexually and emotionally (very occasionally, physically) abused throughout my early years, starting around age 4. I am not sure if I was born this way or not.
I don't have a criminal background and always did very well in school. I have just completed a master's degree in a field that really interests me and that promises to keep me busy and entertained, at least for a few years. I am very much an introvert but have managed to make good friends that I can depend on.
Uh. I can't think of anything else at the moment. Is there anything else you'd like to know, Dr. G (may I call you Dr. G)?
Thanks for sharing your story. What field did you go in to?
DeleteI am curious too.
DeleteForensics.
DeleteI am curious as to the upbringing of other people on this site. I have heard that having a BPD parent is the 'standard' sociopath upbringing. I wonder if other people have had similar experiences.
My mom is most likely bpd. My brother is a classic borderline; rages, ruminates, makes violent threats, perpetually angry, except the rare times he's not he's incredibly witty and funny, recovering alcoholic, etc. My mom is a lot like him, but doesn't drink or do drugs. She's Mormon, but I don't think that's why she doesn't, I just don't think it's ever been her thing. All of our basic needs were met as kids, but she just didn't really like her kids. She wasn't nurturing or warm. She was emotionally abusive, and would rage for hours on end. When they added to the fifth edition of the DSM that borderlines lack empathy in their interpersonal relationships it all came together and made sense for me. Personally I don't live in my past like my brother does, but he is just imprisoned by it. He hates that he didn't have the perfect childhood.
DeleteHaven't seen Girl Interrupted, guess I'll have to watch it.
DeleteIf all the things my mother has done came to light she would definitely qualify for an ASPD diagnosis. She was mostly psychologically abusive, but sometimes physically as well especially when I was under the age of 5. She's mostly reactively aggressive, the problem being everything sets her off. My father was an angry alcoholic and sometimes physically abusive. At least as far as I can remember, basic needs were met. My extended family is populated with a few ASPD and HPD sufferers, lots of ADHD and substance abuse. Being empathy challenged is common among those who do not have a PD. There are an inordinately large number of people living in the gutter, but also inordinately large numbers of high-rollers in business, law, technology, etc.
Fetal environment was less than stellar. Alcohol exposure, yes. Tobacco, yes. Recreational drugs, maybe. She can't remember whether I was an accident or not, so I doubt I'll never know about the drugs.
My earliest memories are of my mother hitting me, I was still in diapers. I remember feeling enraged and realizing she just wanted to get me to cry. As a toddler, I quickly figured out she behaved differently in front of other people, so I'd try to bait her into blowing up in public. Physical abuse was not getting the desired response and I was about to start school anyway, so she turned to emotional abuse instead. The emotional abuse did a number on my sister, lots of issues with depression and anxiety, but was merely an annoyance and a power struggle for me.
My upbringing was problematic, but not exceptionally awful in the scope of lousy childhoods. My genes however, are exceptionally awful. I think that the collusion of a lot of risky genes with poor environment is why my personality is as extreme as it is.
To be honest, I don't know much about ASPD. Like I've mentioned before it's only recently (a few months ago) that I found out sociopaths weren't just serials killers and crazy people running around with knives raping everyone. I've always felt different from others, no matter how I saw it, it always seemed like people didn't keep up. At a very young age I realized that intelligence wasn't knowledge, and knew that even though I wasn't more knowledgeable, I was more intelligent then people around me (except for my grandfather). My earliest memory I think happened when I was three. I was at my aunts house watching my mom ride her bike, she seemed like this giant on a gigantic bicycle. She fell in mud and I remember telling her that it was good for her. And she pretended to cry and got up and walked away. That memory has haunted me until only a few years ago, and I'm pretty sure it's the only thing that I truly regretted. The thing is I don't think I felt any remorse, which I think it was why I was so bothered by it. I regretted it because I laughed at the pain of my mother, a woman who had treated me like a prince (which is what some of my uncles and aunts called me because of the way she treated me) and had always been there for me. I knew it was wrong, based on what I was taught, so I followed her repeating that I was sorry. I regretted it, but felt no remorse, I was wrong and felt sorry, but I didn't really feel bad about it.
DeleteI grew up in an extremely religious Catholic family. I have aunts and uncles that are considered exorcists by the Church, a few are allowed to keep the Eucharist at there house, and I have cousins who have almost become priests or nuns. So growing up the center of my family life was the Trinity and the Virgin Mary. What I consider right or wrong is what I have been taught by my parents, grandparents, and the Bible, and I try to abide them. I am pretty religious, although I do reject a lot of what is bullshit that the Church tries to stuff down my throat (for one thing, that Arian Jesus image, doesn't make much sense considering that he is a Jewish Arab that pretty much grew up in the Middle Eastern desert). My family members have always tried to quiet me down when I asked any questions that would give any hint of doubt in God because it was a sin (which is total BS considering that he can read my mind, why does it only become a sin when I say it out loud). Only three members have encouraged me to ask questions, my grandparents and my aunt. Funny how the ones who encouraged me to have questions are the ones who seemed to have the answers, and when they didn't have questions the would draw a parable that would make it a lot clearer. As a kid I always tried to do what I thought was right, and because of the fact that I figured that friends you can rely on was the only valuable thing in this world besides knowledge, I did my best to make friends and rarely said no to anything they asked. I have always been considered the prodigy of my generation in my family (I have about 50-60 something cousins). I always had good grades, but seemed to be the one who studied the least, which I think is why I always felt more intelligent then other people (except my grandfather who seems to be the only one I can look up to when it comes to intelligence and knowledge).
(cont'd)
DeleteMy father left my mother when I was young, so I only lived with him during the weekends. He is also Catholic although it isn't the biggest aspect of his life, he is more business orientated. If I were to label any member of my family as sociopaths it would be him, except for the fact that he has always shown a lot of love for my half brother and I, he was the one who pretty much raised his younger siblings as a kid after his parents separated brutally, and he is a complete humanitarian. As for my mother, the more I read about BPD the more I can trace it back to her. In her everyday life she is mostly dependent, especially of my stepfather. She is extremely emotional, and suffers from stress and panic attacks (one of the reasons why we moved to the US when I was 10). She gets upset really easily, and swears that she will have nothing to do with you or the matter which upsets her for the rest of the day, but then will be the first to come back after she cools off and feels a little bad about it. She is extremely lively (when she is not depressed or stressed, or when there's music on), and way to caring and generous. She’s very forgiving but, if you get on her bad sad for too long, you mean nothing to her, and she’ll practically see you as trash. She seems pretty weak when you look at her, especially because of the way she tends to depend on people but, I am a first hand witness of how courageous she really is. When I was six we got kidnapped, and she was totally cool, in fact she was so nonchalant about it that every remark the kidnappers made she would purposefully respond in a way that would enrage them (to the point where one cocked his gun and placed it to her head, and she still continued). At that time I wasn't scared I just kept nudging my mom to be quiet because she was going to get killed and I was going to end up alone with them. The whole time this happened I was thinking about what I would do if they ended up killing my mom. After we eventually got set free (idiots broke down the car and had to run away) and got back home she started suffering from stress and anything that sounded like a gun shot would give her panic attacks. Since gunfire and violence were very where I am from at the time, we moved to the US. First thing I realized was how idiotic the kids here were, so for a few years I distanced myself from them. I kept high grades and was at the top of my classes for the first two years, advanced in many subjects and talking with authority while displaying brilliance (not my words but my teachers) to the point where a few of my teachers asked me to remember them when I became successful in the future. Middle school I became lazy and just refused to do any school work, but only aced my tests to keep my grades at least a B (which annoyed my parents and teachers because “I wasn’t living to my potential”). When I got in trouble in school I had a way to smile and talk to my teachers and they would always give me my “last chance”. A teacher once commented to my parents that the only reason I wasn’t in the principals office every week was because of how calm, polite, and how I had a beautiful smile even when I was in trouble. I’ve always been good at judging people and at reading them and there next move. Always made friends easily, but never really got attached to anyone.
My family at home is I guess the best I could ask for. My parents and step siblings are extremely caring and loving, and have always done everything to help me. My younger half sister as a kid was the nicest most generous person you knew, but growing up I think she picked up on my habits and traits. She’s cold, clever, sarcastic, good at making friends, and responds to conversation to the least amount of words as possible but, she cares way to much for what people think of her, and is pretty emotional.
(Keep strong I'm almost done!)
DeleteI realized I was different then others when I noticed that I didn’t get affected by emotions the way others do. It takes a lot to get me mad now, though when I was a kid I was very impulsive and always ready to swing my fist, because I see no point in getting mad. I don’t remember ever being sad, even when family members died (I remember faking being sad and crying when my uncle died, I pretended to be affected by it so that I could skip school the day he died and the day of his funerals… didn’t work -.- ). I don’t think I’ve ever really been excited about something, which was a problem when I was offered presents as a kid. The only emotions I know are anger, joy, and love. Anger and love, because I get pissed and I get happy. Love, because my definition of love is caring, appreciation, and respect (which also have there own definition in my dictionary), and not something magical that makes no sense. Some of the few things that interest me are learning about other cultures and religions, and philosophy (lately psychology has been added to the list). I’ve never found any thrill in torture, or sadism, and help people pretty often (though I mostly help because according to my faith it’s the right thing to do). So the verdict came down to either I’m a genius who’s logic, intelligence, open mindedness, and great philosophical mind have allowed to gain control of and reject unwanted/unnecessary emotions, and was able to learn how to read and predict others emotions. Or, I’m a genius sociopath who was made with all those things already, and whose default was set without bullshit emotions.
@Dev: Girl, Interrupted is an OK movie. Plus, Angelina Jolie plays 'you' in it :P as is often the case, I have heard that the book the movie was based on is better. Haven't read it, though.
Delete@Tii: you sound like a very smart, well-rounded individual. I was also raised with religion and I think it's responsible for my general pro-social tendencies. I'm an atheist, though. To be honest, I don't know why I keep helping random people. It's not as if I'm going to heaven or as if it makes me look good in front of others, nor am I getting a 'good', self-satisfied feeling out of it. Most people seem to think I am kind and good, but I bet they would be horrified to learn that I do not 'mean' it. I really don't get that. If I am doing 'good' and helping people, what does it matter what my initial intention was?
So Tii's mom sounds like she possibly had bpd, and your mom may have possibly had bpd so maybe you are on to something with your theory.
DeleteVoodoo pork, your sexual abuse, I'm sorry you had to experience that tragedy. It's courageous of you to share your story. Thanks for that. Thanks to all of you for opening up, I don't feel so alone, nice to have support and community who understands. I always felt different after my own experience with sexual abuse. It's like night and day switch. I can remember my transition. ..I went from girly girl dresses that I absolutely loved to dress up in on a daily basis, (you'd never find me in pants) -- to hiding behind a tomboy look when I was very young.
Delete(The dresses..... I refused to where after that.). The pictures snapped of me during that time, were of me - never smiling, deep sadness. I did transition out of it and managed to enjoy the girlie style again, but still to this day wonder who the hell I am sometimes inside. If only my 'self' was fixed like that little girl who loved her dresses so much, confident In her own skin.....
My abuse changed my fixed identity to a fluid in identity. I don't know who I am, I fluctuate rapidly to my environments to survive inside. (Being brutally honest here. ) And there's a fellow here Eric, if it wasn't for him writing how to be introspective of our own behaviours and actions inside, I'm not sure if I would of survived finding myself, my true core that desperately wants to come out for good. I'm thankful to him. I tried sexual abuse counceling this year and cannot survive it at this time, I quickly become un- regulated because the abusers will always be in my life, no way around it. The trigger is that strong. So the plan was to put me back in dbt, hoping this will get me grounded for the next phase of sexual abuse trauma afterwards. I had no idea of the different phases of dbt therapy with this one agency that deals with sexual abuse trauma that I'm involved in on a weekly basis. The journey is going to be long with all the stepping stones to build mastery from, but its going to be attainable and well worth it a second time around. Strong coping skills is needed for sexual abuse councelling.
You must be new around here? Nice to meet you.
Can I ask you a question? Do you see yourself having anti-social symptoms of any kind or even borderline symptoms?
And a question to all of you. Do you think that antisocial traits, borderline, or narcissism comes from a deep injury of past trauma of some kind and the self inside splits? We either turn emotion off or loose our control in it and stay there to long Any thoughts?
DeleteWell based on what Tii describes it doesn't sound like he experienced much trauma in early childhood, and yet still has sociopathic traits. The reason I asked others about their history is because it often seems like the more trauma or abuse, the more severe the symptoms are so it seems more like it is the neurochemistry of the brain, and the way that it is wired. If what Jeffrey Dahmer says is true, he also never experienced any early childhood trauma. His case was pretty severe, but generally it seems that there is a correlation between severity of symptoms in ASPD, and early childhood trauma. It's interesting though to hear Dev's perception of her experiences as toddler because from her perception she didn't necessarily feel hurt, but felt that it was more of a power struggle between her and her mother.
DeleteVery true Dr. G. I think neuro- chemistry of the brain is very powerful and evolution also intertwines into it. Gene traits and environmental factors passed along from generation to generation can cause a personality clash later on. I believe a sociopath is more made though. A warrior type being born (just like the borderline), mixed in an environment of some type of trauma to either turn off emotion / or turn it on in order to survive the environments it's given. It becomes so natural because it ties it yo your personality like DNA. That's why sometimes a sociopath or a borderline don't see anything wrong with them. Disordered empathy in both of them is a way of survival. If it wasn't for my borderline - I would have not survived. It was a coping mechanism. Thank God I had borderline, but it's not a long term coping mechanism. I'll sabotoge myself. :(
DeleteMaybe Dev, didn't feel to hurt, but she did experienced trauma, especially being hit in diapers and the power struggle she felt with her mother like you mentioned. :( She never reacted emotionally like a borderline would, but acted with antisocial traits maybe? Idk. Just tossing out thoughts. :)
It has to be said that Girl Interupted is shite. I saw the first 30 minutes in the Cinema, then left. Don't bother watching it.
DeleteSuperchick,
DeletePersonally, I don't believe there is a self to split and have never had the sensation of a self. I think people can dissociate due to trauma, which probably feels like the self splitting if you have a sensation of self. I don't know about borderlines, but I wouldn't call someone who is emotionally numb and acting out due to trauma a socio. I think socios are more born than made; although trauma could definitely exacerbate a socios latent tendencies for causing mayhem. In my case, I suspect the fetal exposure to alcohol, tobacco, possibly drugs had a bigger effect than the other environmental factors.
My mother was not abused as a child, but she's still antisocial. On the contrary, she was a bit spoiled. Same with my father. It's obvious both sets of grandparents feel deep-seated guilt and confusion as to why they turned out the way they did, especially because their siblings aren't like that. Also, my sister came from the same environment and she's nothing like me.
Dr. G,
Was Dahmer ASPD or BPD?
I have to agree that sociopaths are born, and not made, but some of these traits can be further nurtured depending on the environment. As far as Dahmer goes, I’m pretty sure he had ASPD, but it is interesting that a number of serial killers were first labeled with bpd. Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gayce for example were diagnosed with bpd, but these were not bpd cases. I do think though that a portion of the borderline population is psychopathic.
DeleteTo give an example of this, Eileen Wuornos probably really just had bpd. She with was diagnosed with bpd and aspd, but the default personalities are too different from each other to have a comorbid diagnosis in my opinion. She probably just had the psychopathic version of bpd.
DeleteDev, interesting, thanks for sharing, I have a few friends who are fasd (diagnosed) and I belong to some groups in support of people that I'm closed to who are alcohol affected. Some full blown fas, and others with fetal alcohol effects/Arnd. They were subjected to fetal alcohol exposure in the womb. Many have borderline themselves, bipolar, add, and Rad...the list goes on unfortunately. Fetal alcohol exposure affects the wiring of the brain. Some of the most nicest, respectful and accepting individuals I've ever met. Many get multiple diagnosees before the final one...it was Fasd to begin with. (Which just stems off of being alcohol affected.)
DeleteDr. G interesting, what's the psychopathic version of bpd? What are the symptoms and how do they differ from the standard bpd diagnose. I have never self harmed, never used drugs and became addicted, (except for some experimentation when i was a teen, but very minor) but I'm categorized in the bpd traits. Many borderlines I talk to have substance abuse problems with drugs use, some don't I guess.
DeleteMaybe a difference in low or high functioning? Thoughts...
just read through your post. Exhausted lastnight.
Here's an interesting read, thought you might like to read.
The Childhood Psychopath: Bad Seed or Bad Parents?
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/psychopath/2.html
just out fishing.....on the boat bored. Hahaha, checking in.
The more I study and the more I encounter both BPD individuals and sociopathic individuals the more I think that they are far more similar than anyone realizes because one seems to have too much emotion and the other seems to lack it altogether.
DeleteThe sociopath's "shallow affect" doesn't strike me as an organic defect so much as it seems to be an emotion "kill switch" that has been switched off for a very long time that is reinforced by neurobiological changes. It looks like the sociopath has no emotions but really they've just figured out a way to short circuit the emotions they consider to be unpleasant. Of course there is a price: if you can't risk feeling bad things you can't be rewarded by feeling good things when a situation works out in your favor because that would require a degree of emotional investment that is predicated on the risk of caring about an outcome.
Still- the turmoil that produced a sociopath's need to develop psychological defense mechanisms that act as "kill switch" for future emotions has not been resolved, only repressed by this "solution" to unwanted psychic pain.
My theory is that this is why the sociopath is at least as destructive as the borderline. Unresolved trauma drives both personalities and must periodically be given its due through destructive acts. The borderline can locate their rage but the sociopath simply experiences it without conscious understanding. Both feel better after blowing off some steam. If the sociopath's problem is simply shallow affect- why the rage? It's the one piece of the puzzle that never gets addressed.
Unresolved trauma is the crucible in which each of these personality steles is formed.
Superchick,
DeleteFortunately it's not full-blown FAS. Based on the symptoms, I have mild septo-optic dysplasia (SOD). There is malformation of the forebrain in early pregnancy which affects the development of the optic nerves and olfactory bulbs frequently resulting in visual impairment and anosmia. The pituitary is also damaged, causing a wide range of symptoms of varying severity. Sometimes the septum pellucidum is missing, which frequently signals other midline abnormalities in the brain. It's not always caused by alcohol/drug exposure, but that's the only risk factor for me personally. Given my extreme difficulties with feeling visceral pain I think my septum pellucidum is absent. Psychopathy scores were higher in criminals with abnormalities of the septum pellucidum, and I suspect this is one of the reasons my personality is extreme enough for Dr. G to think of it as prototypical sociopathy.
Yes, alcohol exposure definitely increases the risk of mental disorders in people who are genetically susceptible. If society/government really cared about improving mental health, more funding and education would go into preventing fetal alcohol exposure.
Mach,
DeleteI agree that there are a lot of similarities between borderlines and socios, but not for the same reasons as you. I'm skeptical that even a child's level of neuroplasticity and sensitivity is able to alter brain structure and function to that degree due to dissociating from emotion. Regarding shallow affect, some of my not abused/neglected relatives have shallow emotions. I don't think shallow affect by itself is sufficient to say somebody has a PD or was abused. Inherent shallow affect and emotional repression can look similar if you don't know the person well, but they're definitely not the same thing.
I care about outcomes, but if they don't pan out I don't feel the need to cry over spilled milk. If things work out well I'm happy about it. Perhaps other socios on here could describe how they feel about it?
The one borderline I knew had no ability to locate his rage. Perhaps Superchick and Dr. G could comment on what borderline rage is like from a first person perspective, because it's nothing like socio rage. Why the rage? For me, probably because I have every gene known to man that has been associated with anger and aggression. Frankly, it's probably a good thing I'm a socio, or I'd fly off the handle a lot more. I feel better after blowing off steam to the extent that normal people do.
TL;DR
To other socios, do you feel good if an outcome is in your favor? Do you care about outcomes at all? How do you feel about the risk involved in getting a desired outcome?
To the borderlines, what does borderline rage feel like?
I wonder, does the sociopath think logically because he lacks emotions, or does he seem to lack emotions because he thinks more logically than most others. Somehow I feel like it's the latter, that because the way I act and my way of thinking is logical, I see no point in getting emotional in certain situations. When others are emotional and I'm not, almost all the time I can come up with a rational reason for why there's is no point.
DeleteAs for whether or not I feel good if an outcome is in my favor, I don't know if it's feeling good but sometimes there is a feeling of satisfaction or accomplishment, but it really depends on what we're talking about.
@Superchick: Nice to meet you too. I introduced myself a couple of posts ago, but it probably got lost in the comments. I've been a reader for a few months.
DeleteI am sorry to hear that you were sexually assaulted and wish you the best of luck in your therapy and your journey towards overcoming it. I know it's not easy. I, too, am around my 'abusers' and it is not a particularly good experience (mostly because they act as if nothing happened and expect to be able to hug me without me being thoroughly unamused at them :P).
As for your question, I am possibly a sociopath. I meet most of the criteria for a diagnosis except for the criminal background. I was a very well-behaved kid for the most part. That's not to say I have never done anything criminal, just that it wasn't severe enough to warrant getting the police involved, nor was/am I particulary violent. Of course, if someone tried to assault me again, I would probably open their throat with my teeth, but that's because I have such a specific trigger for my anger. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I wasn't sure if I was born like this or made; that's because the sexual abuse started when I was a toddler. I do not remember a transition such as the one you speak of. It must be difficult to remember the person you were and to want to go back to being okay. I guess it's a matter of believing that you *can* be that person again, that it won't consume you and that you are not broken. You can do it, man (err, woman?). I'll be here if you need someone to talk to.
As for your question re: if borderline/narcissism/sociopathy happens as a result of the splitting of the self via trauma (you either shut down all emotions or go crazy with them), I do not know. It looks like Dr. G. thinks sociopaths are born not made, but in my experience, I see it as a possible coping mechanism. For a long time, I pushed that part of me away and convinced myself that I had empathy and even felt some feelings rather strongly. I strived to be a good person until it finally hit me that I was just lying to myself and emulating what I 'should' feel and think like as opposed to what I actually felt (not much, as it turns out). I had the nasty habit of self-censoring my thoughts and 'sanitizing' them. I eventually realized that the empathy I was 'feeling' was not there at all, I simply understood what other people would feel given a situation (up to that point, I had no idea there was a difference between understanding what a person is feeling and actually feeling it). I was actually diagnosed as very functional Asperger's as an adult and was very content because I thought that was what was 'wrong' with me, that was the reason why I couldn't be like other people, even though some of the diagnostic criteria did not apply to me. As soon as I realized that I was lying to myself I conveniently remembered the pet abuse, going out of my way to hurt people that were bothering me, murderous urges, manipulations, lying, etc. The denial was strong in this one.
@Dev: I care about outcomes, too. I have a real issue with feeling happy/content about my achievements, though. I just completed a master's degree and I can report that I get more satisfaction from doing the laundry (clean bedsheets FTW). My mother always teased/criticized me for it. "You can't get excited about anything!" :P If something does not go according to plan, I simply recalibrate the route.
Delete@ Dev, you're very knowledgeable, I commend you for taking the time and effort in concluding it -- in yourself - that you might have fetal alcohol effects. There is something rather extraordinary about you thou. Many individuals with fasd/ partial fas/arnd think outside the box, are genuine to the core, and it’s a gift. Embrace it. The Corpus callosum could be missing, I know a mother who had an alcohol dependency problem when she was pregnant with her little girl. The little girl is missing that part, but like you mentioned the brain is full of plasticity and reroutes itself. Piano playing strengthens the bundle fibers of the Corpus callosum. An MRI will reveal if yours is missing. But I wouldn't worry too much, the brain makes new neuro-pathways all the time. I agree we need to start to fund more programs to prevent fasd. :)
Delete@ Mach, i nodded yes,and YES. well stated as always. :)
@ Vodoo Pork, thank you. I really mean that. Your story touches me inside, really resonates, and your kindness is sweet. You can convey and relate with my story, so nice to not feel alone, for sharing it with us, community really heals the heart i believe. I value how introspective you are about yourself. Your truth -- the questioning inside --what it is you need for yourself and how to fight for your needs with such honour. :-) I have never told anyone this except for my partner, but I feel like I’m safe here, cause it’s a sociopath blog. I tortured a cat 'once' before, put it in the dryer, squeezed it and put it in a bag to wave around. :( Yup, unfortunately, I’m very ashamed of that, would never tell my cat lover friends. But that same cat I fed every single day and took care of it...diligently... weird. It was a stray cat, and I was only entering grade eight at the time. I worked as a waitress on weekends. I was hired at an early age, cuz my dad was a member of that hall. All my cheques went on feeding animals, strays, petting them and showing them care. On my first day of school of grade eight, my parents took that cat away cause they thought it was a nuisance. I was so mad at them for that. I took care of it for so long. My husband hates cats, honestly he would shoot them if he can. o dear. And I really give him hell if he mentions that in front of the kids. He has to watch. But other animals he loves. dogs, horses, etc..
DeleteI’ve actually thought of myself bordering between borderline, ocd, aspd, and cyclothymic disorder. My husband really dislikes it when I keep labeling myself, because he sees so much more than labels, but it’s starting to make more sense. My brain needs labels to make sense of things, his doesn’t too much, he just says it works with us. I’ve never met anyone else who gets me like he does, and he loves me in weakness all the more. I believe he's also wavering close to aspd, borderline, and cyclothymic disorder. We compliment one another though, and he’s never bored with me, but Im always full of ideas. I think the suspense keeps him interested, ;) . He also has a moral ethic code, but that’s because he was raised in the “faith.” He’s a very logical thinker, not too emotional, but gets teary-eyed over things that I wouldn’t too much. Weird. He can start tearing up in emotion at the end of the movie, I just know when he starts wiping his tears with his elbows, and I’m like why cant you cry over this and that, or for this person. haha. He always tells me that feelings & the fuzzies don’t mean too much for him, but actions do mean everything. My husband thinks the world of his family and children, and others not too much attachment. He is courteous, bold, kind to others, very fair, but attachments to others, nope not there. Except for us. At funerals I have to tell him, fake it, just mimic emotion. He'd rather not go, there already dead anyway. O dear! I think! ha. My definition of love is changing. Love is → kind, long suffering, patient, protects, trusts, hopes, perseveres. etc. just the good ol’ virtues for me.
Looking forward to chatting with you more. Were doing the camping thing out here. Cheers and nights to you all :)
@Superchick: thanks for your reply! Your husband sounds awesome. It's nice how you mention that you complement each other. I don't know much about relationships, but from what I've read, those types are the ones that really last.
DeleteWisdom of the socios: "today" is real, it has happened & will happen. Everything else past is a only a dream. To be back there and "stir & poke" is just folly.
ReplyDeleteIf some people aren't afraid to die, then why do they flee mass
ReplyDeleteshootings, and why do they back away from cliffs, or gasp at close calls.
Planned risk taking is one thing. Reacting to unexpected dangers is
something else.
A decade or so ago, there was a fire at a rock in role concert. Something
caught fire, and people fled the building anyway they could.
Even James Holmes tried to get away from the scene of his own mass
shooting. The fact that he attempted to leave, shows consciouness of
guilt. In fact, crazy or not, there has never been a recorded instance of
an attack on a person in front of a uniformed police officer.
Some people, yes because they fear death. Others because they don't want to get hurt. If you want to kill me with a bullet to the head, sure go ahead, just make sure you don't miss. If you wanna tie me up and burn me tied to a stick, yah fuck that my ass is going to try to prevent it anyway I can. By the way there's a difference between not wanting to die, and fearing death. I don't want to go to school/work/the beach today, doesn't mean that I'm scared of any of them.
DeleteI have to agree with Tii on this one, Anonymous. Just because someone isn't afraid of death, it does not follow that they are going to embrace any and all oportunities to kick the bucket because, hey, there is nothing to be afraid of.
DeleteFleeing your own mass shooting is not consciousness of guilt. It's not being stupid by staying to get caught.
DeleteAlso, having "some" fear of death is beneficial. It's an anachronistic survival mechanism designed to avoid getting killed by hazards and predators. Not having a fear of death is actually not as good as it sounds. I've stood 30 feet in front of a mass gang versus police shooting and watched out of curiousity and interest instead of ducking for cover. That was a universally stupid reaction, but it happened, and I only know it now intellectualky in hindsight. The flight response just doesn't happen. Not having fear is a double-edged sword.
Because I'm Batman.
DeletePsychos only get "more focused" in tense situations, like hyperconcentrated, so they often "forget fear". They are not devoid of fear. Psychos fear meeting a worse psycho than themselves. Psychos are not devoid of real sentimentality; they weep genuinely for themselves. Lets get real. Lets leave the fairytales behind.
DeleteBob,
DeleteI agree with you 100%. I've been consciously trying to cultivate an automated response to things I should move away from after experiencing too many instances of retrospectively stupid behavior. One thing that's interesting, is if some unknown object suddenly appears in my peripheral vision I reflexively take appropriate action, but if I'm looking at something head-on fight response or investigative behavior is the only thing that happens. Although, after avoiding whatever was in my peripheral vision the only response that comes to mind is to inspect it or get in a fight with it if there isn't some other more pressing objective, so maybe it's not an entirely appropriate response. Have you noticed anything similar in yourself?
The last incident that happened to me involved walking across a busy intersection without paying attention to the lights - when a truck was about to hit me I had actually paused on the road for a second to consciously think about it and decide to move myself. I was annoyed at myself at the lack of attention in putting myself in that situation, but even so in that event it required conscious thinking instead of any reflexive panic or flight mechanism. The lack of a non-conscious reaction/reflex was not beneficial that day.
DeleteWisdom of the socios: it´s like a movie, only duller.
ReplyDeleteIt has to be said that ME, AKA Jamie Lund sometimes speaks a load of old bollocks. However, Jamie does have fantastic tits. Sociopath or not, with a pair of tits like she has, we need to congratulate her. Despite her not mentioning in her book that she was just an IP Lawyer, which is obviously the most boring form of Law, we need to concentrate on the tits, which are lovely. So Jamie, you have a shit job, working for a shit University, but you do have nice tits. Well done on the tits.
ReplyDeleteGood job flogging that dead horse. Do you do this every month?
DeleteIP law is a lot more interesting than tax law.
DeleteM.E. actually should be loved and appreciated. It is rather sentamental.
ReplyDeleteI don't know whether a self professed sociopath can love like I suggest.
You are impressed with M.E,'s body. You want to hold that body next to
you. So much that you can feel the beating of her heart. You want to
immerse yourself into M.E.
Could a fellow sociopath do that LONG RANGE? Is a sociopath ONLY in it
for sex? Can a sociopath be a foul weather friend, if there's no obvious
payoff? Would cuddling with her on a couch, or brushing her hair out of
her eyes be enough even if she wasn't in the mood for sex that night?
Or is that just a drawn out waste of time, when there's fun to be had?
M.E. is an ENTJ personality. She was born in the Year of the Boar.
She is a professional woman. She has a moral compass even if she
doesn't always use it. She was raised in a middle class lifestyle, and
won't willingly settle for less then that. She sees herself as an intuitive
teacher type who likes to guide people. I don't know whether she has
ever had a heartfelt "cry" in her entire life, after the breakup of a
relationship or the loss of a loved one.
M.E. wants appreciation and respect, but maybe there's a feeling of
uneasiness. She'd like to relax from the image she crafted for herself,
but can she really trust anyone enough to relax with them?
Even though her future is 1,000% better then mine, I'm terrified for her.
Flog that dead horse. Yeehaw?
DeleteWhat a hell is this? A borderliner crises of love?
Deleteat times like this I actually support the female sociopath's compulsion to unleash hell upon her "admirers". Not because this is threatening. But because the world is chock full of too much stupid and this moron has clearly done way too much subpar obsessing about ME. That said, because ME is wise enough to do a cost benefit analysis I suspect she will decide that it is not her responsibility to solve the growing worldwide crisis of moronic stalkers.
DeleteA fagot's borderliner crises, I mean.
ReplyDeleteA clairvoyant borderliner fagots crise.
ReplyDeleteOk, listen, anon, if you're going to insult people, learn how to do it effectively. This was an atrocity.
DeleteBeing a bigot and a bad speller in 2 consecutive sentences does not indicate a bright future. If you're going to be an asshole, at least TRY to be clever.
Delete@Machiavellianempath: Oh, snap!
DeleteMachiavellianempath, Superchick, you have talked more than once about meeting the sw crowd face to face. I am curious, how would your family and friends react to this? Would you tell them? Do any of your close ones know you are participating on this site?
ReplyDeleteThe questions are for everybody here, sociopath or not. Three of my close ones know I participate. They think it is a bit weird, but they don't try to discourage me.
a few select friends and family members know.
DeleteI think they understand my reasoning that the devils you now are better than the devils you don't in the sense that none is pretending to be above reproach if they dare to interact on SW ;). My current feeling is that you are far more likely to get f---ed up the ass by a churchgoing malignant narcissist than anyone on SW.
Nobody knows I participate, but nobody knows what I am in real life either.
DeleteWow you make it sound like it's a dirty little secret :P Hmm well I have professional interests in this area, and I'm not sure really if anyone I know knows I visit this site or not.
DeleteEveryone I know knows I have a little bit of a Wednesday in me anyway, so I don't think anyone I know would be surprised or anything.
DeleteDirty little secret? Well, kind of. I have been made to feel that my friendship with the sociopath I know is unnatural and unhealthy. Many times. Both by people who know him and people who do not. So yes. I am at best tentative about talking to others about it.
DeleteNope, no one knows that I'm on here. No one asked so there's really no reason to tell, I'm old enough to choose what sites I want to frequent anyways. And, I don't think anyone would be surprised or care if I told them that I come on this blog, I tend to be into weird things so... I mean as long as I don't put my address or private info or anything.
DeleteMach, lol about the church going malignant narcissist. I know exactly what you mean, not first hand but second hand. A very close friend of mine was married to one for more than 2 decades. The psychiatrists used the term narcissist pervert, but that was not in North America so I am not sure the terminology applies here. I helped her through the separation and the recovery. She is doing great now. At the time, though, she actually had to check herself in a psychiatric hospital because she was so close to suicide. She had some sort of a manic, very agitated depression. Lost an enormous amount of weight and could not sleep anymore. And she is one of the strongest, most giving and level headed woman I know. Yep, they can f**** you up all right!
DeleteNo one knows I'm here, either. I don't see the need to tell anyone. My friends would probably be unsurprised because we have discussed murder and burial patterns in sociopaths/psychopaths as an area of forensic study before, so I have a good alibi: just digging a bit deeper.
DeleteMy partner and eldest know, and a few friends. I try to knock down the stigma of sociopathy. My hubby just laughs at me most of the time. How everything gets psychoanalyzed in my mind. I tell him things I learnt, how to see things with another angle, he listens to me, smiles.
Deletehmmm i think he'd be ok with it. I’m honest with him about everything thou. Are topic this weak concluded with me, "honey, just because your very honest with me, doesn't make things right." Hmm got me really thinking...my moral compass has been a little off lately.
But a weekend to meet some of you in separate hotel rooms why not? fun, with boundaries of course. :)
I wonder if ME would be interested. Would be nice to meet her aswell.
Watch out for cafe-owners that starts "chatting up" their customers, leaves work inside to sit at tables next to them on the sunny patio! Thats like fins circling a tiny canoe on deep water. No new book? How about one aiming to upset experts by tickling the superhero-theme, stating the most forbidden, the big no-no: that controlled, intelligent psychopaths are nietzschean "ubermenchen"? This will piss many writing moralists off, they will get so mad by reading this they´ll likely chew carpets. They´ll rage, scream obscenities, foam at the mouth & spit/shit out new tomes on fresh psychopathic daemons in human shape..
ReplyDeleteSome of the posts on this thread are priceless, even when I don't know whether to agree with them or not.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone thought about writing a book -- sort of a Socratic dialog based on extracted exchanges in this blog, including some of the insults, ad hominems to lend authenticity... but mostly the respect (as it appears) for different points of view?
@Mach "Bottom line- when empaths get mad that a sociopath doesn't apologize it has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with primal emotions like rage and fear that social animals are hard wired to feel when trust breaks down."
Couldn't agree more. When you change the places of the words empath and sociopath in this sentence (when sociopaths get mad at empaths for not apologizing...) is it often true still, or is it something else? Do sociopaths get mad at empaths for not apologizing? Well I guess so since it amounts to a loss of control. But I don't know.
About trauma and sociopathy:
@Dev "Personally, I don't believe there is a self to split and have never had the sensation of a self. I think people can dissociate due to trauma, which probably feels like the self splitting if you have a sensation of self. "
This is an amazing remark. Can I ask what is it you experience rather than a sensation of self?
@Mach maybe the intensity of narcissistic or psychopathic rage ("why all the rage") is there because rage is one of the base, animalistic emotions so if one does not have access to other ones, then at least one feels alive this way. It's also about power, manipulation and all that... It could even be fake most times.
Unresolved trauma sure can lead to rage and to personality disorders. I'm not sure though that all sociopaths experienced trauma in their childhood, unless you consider that being born into a world with a vastly different neurological imprint and then having to cope with that finality as a child is traumatic, even if the environment is by all reasonable standards nurturing for a neurotypical child.
From my perspective, sociopathy doesn't necessarily go through the crucible of unresolved trauma.