From a reader:
I've read your book, Without Conscience, Sociopath Next Door, Women Who Love Psychopaths, and Wisdom of Psychopaths, and still haven't been able to figure out if I'm a sociopath, because I don't fully fit into the category of empath or sociopath.
I don't do things because I will feel guilt, remorse, shame, etc., if I don't. I can turn off my emotions at will, and feel nothing for hurting others, and the results of an IQ test in high school showed I had an IQ of 147.
The thing that confuses me is that, while I can't empathize with others' emotions, I have a rule for myself that I won't do anything I wouldn't be okay with others doing to me, because I hate when others cheat and screw me, so I want to make sure they know what their dealing with, but it's an intellectual decision to treat ppl the way I'd want to be treated, but at the same time I could be a total douche to people and not care. Also, I'm honest with people because it takes too much effort for me to lie, but I have no feelings about lying when it's easy and convenient, or manipulating someone's sense of morality and personal emotions and beliefs to protect myself, or get what I want (in a survival of the fittest way).
Unlike most of the sociopaths, though, I don't crave stimulation or power. Roller coasters bore me, I don't take pleasure in anything with others (like having power over them makes me feel nothing, and being below them makes me feel nothing). I have no anger towards others either; like if someone gives me shit I don't feel anger or have any desire to hurt them, but I don't feel fear or anything either; it's like I'm eternally emotionally neutral towards everything; like I enjoy being around people or out partying, but I enjoy being at home with a book exactly the same, because my inner emotional state doesn't change according to what happens in my outside environment.
I don't care or get affected by what others say about me, I don't feel fear (or much any emotion) in response to situations, fear or otherwise. For example, a woman with a phenomenal body and breasts walked by in a bikini on the beach, and all my friends will be drooling over her, and, while I'd enjoy fucking her, I'm apathetic, and will just observe her like a car walking by, other than reading her body language and studying her like a science textbook, then I went up to her, played out a few lines and shit I'd seen out of movies like The Notebook and books like 50 Shades of Grey, fucked her, and thought nothing of it.
While all my friends were too wimpy to approach her, I felt apathetic the whole time, even after I fucked her, I walked out with a, "well, that was nice, time to move on with my life" mindset and attitude.
I'm don't have any of the hallmarks of empaths, but I lack many traits I read that are common in sociopaths, so I don't know how to classify myself, and knowing you have more experience in this area I figured you had the answer.
I've read your book, Without Conscience, Sociopath Next Door, Women Who Love Psychopaths, and Wisdom of Psychopaths, and still haven't been able to figure out if I'm a sociopath, because I don't fully fit into the category of empath or sociopath.
I don't do things because I will feel guilt, remorse, shame, etc., if I don't. I can turn off my emotions at will, and feel nothing for hurting others, and the results of an IQ test in high school showed I had an IQ of 147.
The thing that confuses me is that, while I can't empathize with others' emotions, I have a rule for myself that I won't do anything I wouldn't be okay with others doing to me, because I hate when others cheat and screw me, so I want to make sure they know what their dealing with, but it's an intellectual decision to treat ppl the way I'd want to be treated, but at the same time I could be a total douche to people and not care. Also, I'm honest with people because it takes too much effort for me to lie, but I have no feelings about lying when it's easy and convenient, or manipulating someone's sense of morality and personal emotions and beliefs to protect myself, or get what I want (in a survival of the fittest way).
Unlike most of the sociopaths, though, I don't crave stimulation or power. Roller coasters bore me, I don't take pleasure in anything with others (like having power over them makes me feel nothing, and being below them makes me feel nothing). I have no anger towards others either; like if someone gives me shit I don't feel anger or have any desire to hurt them, but I don't feel fear or anything either; it's like I'm eternally emotionally neutral towards everything; like I enjoy being around people or out partying, but I enjoy being at home with a book exactly the same, because my inner emotional state doesn't change according to what happens in my outside environment.
I don't care or get affected by what others say about me, I don't feel fear (or much any emotion) in response to situations, fear or otherwise. For example, a woman with a phenomenal body and breasts walked by in a bikini on the beach, and all my friends will be drooling over her, and, while I'd enjoy fucking her, I'm apathetic, and will just observe her like a car walking by, other than reading her body language and studying her like a science textbook, then I went up to her, played out a few lines and shit I'd seen out of movies like The Notebook and books like 50 Shades of Grey, fucked her, and thought nothing of it.
While all my friends were too wimpy to approach her, I felt apathetic the whole time, even after I fucked her, I walked out with a, "well, that was nice, time to move on with my life" mindset and attitude.
I'm don't have any of the hallmarks of empaths, but I lack many traits I read that are common in sociopaths, so I don't know how to classify myself, and knowing you have more experience in this area I figured you had the answer.
I considered many disorders. They all came back to the conclusion that I no one could find any evidence I suffer from delusions, am fully aware of my behavior, actions, and consequences. I'm brilliant at analyzing situations, people, and rational and abstract reasoning.
The psychologist who gave me my IQ test said he had to re-check part of the test, because he thought he added the score twice, and that in 22 years of giving over 1,200 tests he only had 3 people ever scored higher than me in this area. I've always been able to read people's life story like a book within 30 seconds of meeting them just by reading their body language.
The confusion about where I fit in, is that, around people, I can appear engaging, passionate, funny, or whatever else, and I don't really care if I'm alone or with people, but I never have a preference to avoid situations with a lot of emotions and shit, or close relationships, and I don't get uncomfortable. I just use these situations as experiments to entertain myself, and to experience and learn new things I can use to better manipulate people better to get what I want in the future, but I am indifferent to what people say/think of me, and even though I act my mood rarely changes... it's all a facade.
I also like sex a lot, but I don't give a shit about the intimacy; just the rush of dopamine that comes from an orgasm... it has nothing to do with the other person.
At work or school I'd always do whatever I could to get good grades and make myself look good with the least amount of effort (in college I always went on RateMyProfessor and picked the easiest teachers so I could get a high GPA with little to no effort).
I want you to put this on your blog so I can see what sociopaths have to say. Most of the therapists and "experts" I know don't know seem to know shit beyond what they read in some book. It would help to hear what other sociopaths think.
Consider that, by your own volition, your 'moral compass' is an intellectual decision to help disguise yourself and encourage people to leave you alone. You claim that you do not display emotional responses, that within social interactions you act as if you feel things that you don't, and you view relationships and the like as experiments to help you manipulate people more effectively. These are traits of the sociopath. Just because you do not display signs such as megalomania does not mean that you do not exist on the sociopathic spectrum. In fact, your decision that because you do not perfectly match the criteria you must be something different may be indicative of a heightened sense of self-worth: another hallmark of the sociopath.
ReplyDeletePersonality disorders fit in a spectrum. You won't find a perfect sociopath. If you are one, or close to one, you would be somewhere on the spectrum.
DeleteThis is my point. You can be a sociopath without displaying all of the traits thereof.
DeleteFolks bothered by guilt or shame probably don´t fit the shoe, so to speak. And power is vital for all psychos, "control" is the name of the game. Anger is "psycho-fuel", the juice which propels them forward. Filled with hatred, like poisonous snakes. Even their language is sometimes described as "poisonous". Shrinks meeting them often reacts on the "hatred towards the world" which they ooze of, even if the topic of their discussion has been something mundane/neutral..
ReplyDeleteUmmm... no. Might want to check your sources...
DeleteStill hung up on the misanthropy thing, Anon?
DeleteAlright, prove me wrong: where can folks read about mild, misty-eyed psychos that really care if aunt Tilda dislikes them? Is such info often put last in books about the subject, so most people miss it? "The loving tender Psycho: filled with anxiety about others well-being", is there such a chapter somewhere in psycho manuals? Or are some folks "lost in the woods with few clues" when it comes to unsavoury topics which somehow seem too cruel for school?
DeleteAlright an example. Sure I don't care if Aunt Tilda or anyone else loves me or not. In fact I don't care if my mother loves me or not, I'm just glad that she's taken care of me all these years, and was always there to help. Can you say that I love my mother? From my point of view using love as a word to describe that imaginary magical feeling that is the strongest forcve in the universe, and comes right before the bullshit power of friendship (which I find a lot more legit than then the power of love). But I do love my mother. My definition for love, isn't the ever changing, malleable, make it what you want definition that empath gives it. Love is a package composed of appreciation, respect, and caring (If I'm going to use meaningless words invented and used by the vast majority, I might as well give it a meaning which makes sense). 1. Caring: Not whether I worry about how she feels, feel bad if she feels hurt, or I'm happy if she feels good. Sure, I wish her the best, and would never hope anything bad happens to her but, whether or not she feels good or bad have nothing to do with me. Caring means that if I see her in a difficult position, I will do my best to help because I owe it to her. Or, that if someone tries to inflict damage to her, I will destroy them to the degree I see fit, because that's the least I can do (a Lannister always repays his debts). 2. Appreciation: Like I said before, she's always been there to help out when I was in a tough spot, and has always given me everything she could. The recognition of that is appreciation. Even a computer program can recognize when you update it. 3. Respect: She's a strong woman who has proven her worth. Even when she had a gun pointed to her head (literally) she kept her chin up, kept her cool, and spoke her mind (which only aggravated the perpetrators. All that while standing in front of me and doing her best so that a gun wasn't also pointed to my head. I admit it's a noble characteristic to have, many would cower in that situation, and I recognize her bravery, and so I respect her. Remove all the unnecessary, pointless stuffing from the turkey, it's better without it, and easier to make.
DeleteSo, are there people in the world that I love? If they fit into those criterias, then I would say yes. Do I hate everyone else? No, they have nothing to do with me so why would I give a crap.
I concur. This is a great description.
DeleteAnon,
DeleteLet's start with some definitions.
Hate
a very strong feeling of dislike
1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury
b : extreme dislike or antipathy : loathing
Misanthropy
a hatred or distrust of mankind
People are like objects to me. Do you hate your shoes, or shoes in general? No? But you find them useful, right? And when you want a new pair, do you experience emotional turmoil over chucking them in the trash? I doubt it. That's how I feel about people, they're useful and some of the amuse me. Very different from misanthropy.
The hate isn't necessarily connected to a person. It's more like a temporary need to annihilate an obstacle.
DeleteThe anon description that began this sounds more like a borderline.
I'd say you're a learned narcissist, as most of the academic world. Your intelligence early on and associated high grades were euphoric (especially for a child). At the same time these high grades were causing slow and steady extreme isolation, tat you were naturally different from most and also the chances are they were mostly boring to you. In other words, you grew up with steady curse of being the gifted student. In time, this turned into dissociation, numbing of emotions, exercising your powers for narcissistic supply (such as choosing easy classes just for the grade, proving yourself that you can f and then dump a beautiful woman--and show that narcissist bitch that she can't always win everyone's soul (not my thoughts, your subconscious in need of narcissistic supply thinks so).
ReplyDeleteSo, you're not a sociopath; you're a gifted narcissist who is extremely bored and dissociated. Takes one to know one.
If you had a sadist streak in you (I don't see it, meaning you would not intentionally do the f and dump act to a nice, ugly woman just to hurt her feelings, you have a good sense or you assumed that beautiful babe would not really hurt from not hearing from you again), you could easily become a malignant narc. Instead, you're a narc steadily numbing yourself and stepping away from society emotionally. By the time you're 50 you could end up with no friends other than losers who need you for something, or who are kind of masochistic. So, wake up. See if you can use that brilliant brain to normalize and give to humans (not just humanity) and start feeling good about yourself. Between the lines it shows you really don't like yourself, or what you've become. Change it asap.
Uhhh, how does any of that remotely have to do with it being narc over socio because it isnt there
DeleteAnon, you mean you don't see it, and your not seeing it doesn't mean that it's not there, unless you somehow are able to prove that it's not there.
ReplyDeleteThat's fine, you're not the one with 147 IQ, if he reads it he'll know exactly what I'm talkingabout and unlike most narcs he will not refute his being narc. I sure hope we hear from him. We could use some high intelligence in the blog.
By the way, no offense. Not everybody is born with the same faculties. I'm sure you have a lot to offer with your being to the world. If you are to contribute here, though, you need to support your argument. Give it a try.
I dunno. I’ve never met this person, and I hate to assume things, but I’m not really getting the sociopath vibe. It sounds like he really wants to belong to a group. Why else would someone be so concerned with being pathologized, and placed in to some kind of mental illness category? There may be a history of abuse here too. I have to wonder if he emulates sociopaths for some reason, and is trying to take on a lot of the characteristics. Is it really that unusual for men, and some women, to objectify the opposite sex, and in doing so see them as objects? You don’t have to show a lot of empathy towards an object. He says he sought out the easiest instructors to earn a high grade, but is this really that unusual especially the first two years of college where students are taking required courses in subjects that they may not really have an interest in studying? He desperately wants to be classified, and is mad at mental health professionals because he can’t be.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if it is desperation to be classified, so much as frustration that an answer is so elusive. I understand that.
DeleteI actually understand where this kid is coming from. I think at the point that you realize that your mind doesn't function the same as everyone else and decide to seek out answers, it can be frustrating to get close to answer, but be technically excluded for some reason. If the commenters on this blog are any indication, there are a lot of us, including M.E., that are high functioning and haven't ever been in trouble enough to be categorized as ASPD.
I don't think the desperation is at categorization, but at finding an explanation that fits.
I understand what you are saying, but since information about disorders was made available to the public by psychologists people have been trying to classify themselves as having some kind of mental disorder. This is especially true with personality disorders. There is an issue of over pathologizing in the field of psychology, and I admit I used to be guilty of this. I used to feel a need to place everyone in to some kind of category. If they fell slightly outside of the realm, it would make me a bit edgy, but I would still try to force them in to it. I see this with other mental professionals as well. I will watch them wrack their brain trying place someone in to something. It’s shortcut thinking, and we end missing or ignoring certain aspects of a person that is very much a part of who they are. Psychologists need to be challenged on this, and begin critically analyzing people if we’re going to be true scientists. Scientists are suppose to be interested in the objective truth regardless of our own biases. I was diagnosed with bpd, but I don’t abuse drugs or alcohol, I don’t cut my arms or pull my hair out, I’ve never attempted suicide, and yet psychologists are quite comfortable placing me in to the same category as these other individuals. If I didn’t critically analyze people, I wouldn’t be on sociopathworld agreeing with a lot of what is being said, or feeling like I have had some of my long held suspicions confirmed. I would be like a lot of other psychologists and say that all sociopaths are criminals, and that they have “no” emotions.
DeleteHieronymous,
DeleteI agree with you. I didn't get the impression that he feels an emotional need to belong to a group, but that he was looking for a classification to further his understanding and/or fix a problem (if a problem exists). That's a normal male characteristic. It's like if something is wrong with your car, you attempt to classify the problem in order to fix it. It doesn't necessarily follow that you're experiencing emotional angst over your car trouble (though at some points you may feel rage, and the desire to kick something).
Yeah, I don't qualify for an ASPD diagnosis, thankfully. If I'd managed to get into that much trouble my life would be a lot less comfortable than it is now (like some of my relatives, who do have a diagnosis). Sociopathy, at least the unofficial definition of it on this blog, is a personality construct not a list of naughty behaviors you engaged in at certain ages. If it wasn't self-defeating, I absolutely would remorselessly smash others like bugs just because they happened to be in the way of whatever I'm trying to accomplish at the moment, and drive recklessly, and psychologically abuse people left, right, and center, and on and on. Just because I don't actually engage in those actions, doesn't mean my personality is any different.
Dr. G,
DeleteI agree with you about the need for critical analysis. I'm more familiar with the so-called "hard sciences" and mathematics, looking at it from this vantage point psychology seems to be at the position physics was in when people were still going on about "ether". I think a lot of the issues will work themselves out eventually, but it is challenging when you have to deal with so much subjectivity. I don't think classifying things is inherently bad, but it's definitely a big problem when the criteria for classification are vague and difficult to support with strong empirical evidence. Then a lot of personal opinion seeps in combined with the human tendency to label and "other" others, and you get an epidemic of pathologizing and labeling.
How would you guys feel if it was coming from more of an emotional perspective. I'm curious because I'm perceiving some emotion, and yet neither of you are. What would this person do with his diagnosis? What is his purpose? What would happen if we didn't have all of this knowledge about personality disorders. Do you think he would be as bothered by his personality characteristics?
DeleteFeel :), well I wouldn't feel anything, but intellectually I think it's a possibility, especially since we're playing diagnose my mental disorder over the internet. Taking it at face value, I'm perceiving frustration which is an emotion, but I don't see any sign of desperation to be part of a group. If he actually is as smart, successful, and ballsy as he makes himself out to be than he's just doing masculinity better than his bros, so why would he be looking for a mental disorder to be part of? Obviously, there's the possibility that he's none of the above and is insecure, therefore looking for a big bad label and a big bad group to join. To me, it looks like he's most concerned about the emotional flatness and what he perceives as manipulative behavior, though from the things he lists it doesn't sound abnormally manipulative. The emotional flatness and what appears to be anhedonia are the two things that stick out to me. I suspect that he might be an intelligent, masculine personality with depression.
DeleteWhat would he do with a diagnosis? If he's a sociopath, mission complete, the question is answered. If he's not, then he'll keep looking for the answer. A lot of times men just want to know, it doesn't necessarily have to have an immediate practical application, this goes double if his IQ really is 147.
His purpose? He might want to better understand himself and how he fits into the world. He could also be genuinely concerned that there's something wrong with him, not just that he is a bit different. Continuing to work off the assumption that he's a he, the concern wouldn't necessarily be expressed directly. Frequently men won't tell anyone that they're concerned about something, they'll turn it into an unemotional, practical matter and you have to read between the lines to figure out what's going on inside.
I don't think it's a bad thing to make accurate information about PDs available. The problem is sensationalistic books and articles that make it sound like there's a psychopath around every corner (it could even be you!) and pathologize normal behavior, particularly normal male behavior. That's likely part of the issue here, looking at his reading list. I'll admit the only book I've read in its entirety is Hare's. The others only excerpts because they immediately struck me as greatly sensationalizing the disorder in order to sell more books, especially "The Sociopath Next Door". As many as 1 in 4 people might be socios, really? Frankly, that might be why he thinks his normal behaviors are actually heartless and manipulative.
Oh, and I've read M.E.'s book in its entirety. But I don't think you'd get it into your head that you might be a socio if you're normal from her book, and definitely not Hare's.
DeleteI find it hard to believe that someone with a 147 IQ was able to sit through the Notebook or Fifty Shades. I tried to read that once, and I could literally feel my brain cells committing suicide.
DeleteI didn't pick up on an emotional subtext, but if there is one, it could possibly stem from the author's frustrations. I've mentioned before that I am not completely without emotion, it's just that typically I am the object of that emoting. If this dude is similar, it could be just his frustration seeping through.
It is likely that this guy falls somewhere on the spectrum, but not enough to fall under a clinical definition. But who cares really, the fact that psychologists haven't bothered to develop a label for you doesn't invalidate whatever you are.
The overt braggadocio might be indicative of narcissism, or some need to be perceived a particular way.
DeleteThere could be some narcissism going on, or he might just be a 20-something male. Hard to say, not much demographic info provided.
DeleteI find it shocking that people with IQs that high can stare at the wall for hours on end while flapping their hands, but autists manage it everyday. I agree with you about Fifty Shades, I couldn't finish it. I settled for reading a synopsis, and an analysis of why women are so gaga over it. Short answer, they love the fantasy of getting a man to change just for them. If you've ever had a girlfriend that gave you the impression she wanted you to hand in your balls and grow a different personality, now you know why.
Is that what it is about? I thought they just secretly got off on the kinky fetish sex.
DeleteNo, though that might be a bonus. Most women are all about the emotional thing, even if there is kinky fetish sex, still mostly emotional.
DeleteYou know, after making that comment about autistic people I wonder if this dude has a bit of Asperger's going on. It would explain the emotional flatness, lack of interest in normal things, lack of interest in socio games, and ability to trudge through Fifty Shades.
DeleteNow that Dev's mentioned it. I've also noticed that the easiest way to get a girl is by playing the part of a somewhat sensitive bad boy that no girls seem to be able to change, and then giving them the slight hope that they might be able to make you change. They start talking to you about how you can be honest with them, and that the with be the relief and sole person for you to be truthful to if you let them. Just keep them working in trying to change you and they don't even realize that there really isn't anything to change.
DeleteAs for the reader, something about it seems off about it. I feel like there's too much worry about it and too strong a need to find out. Maybe it's just my experience, but I never really cared about what I had (or didn't). I only new that in someways I was different and curious about finding out why. I didn't know the real meaning of sociopath, like most people out their I thought of serial killers, rapists, and the kid that loses it one day and stabs as many people in his school as possible. While reading online one day I saw a different definitions, and what I read implied that not all of them were criminals or violent. I wanted to learn more about it (I hate it when people speak about a subject with faulty/ no knowledge on it, so I try not to do it myself) and the more I read the more I saw myself. Then while browsing online about the topic I found this website and could relate to a lot of things people wrote. Long story short I never really cared about whether or not I'm a sociopath, it was just nice to learn that I wasn't the only cold hearted alien robot out there. Somehow the fact that this guy/girl is trying so hard to classify himself makes it hard to imagine him as a sociopath (but who knows I don't know many, nor do I have any experience in the psy field).
The strong need to find out did make me wonder. In combination with some other things, he doesn't strike me as a socio. That's why I suggested depression with acting out. But Asperger's isn't impossible either, not all of them are emotional basket cases with excessive sensory sensitivity (say that three times fast). Some of them are actually abnormally insensitive, have high pain tolerance, and are emotionally flat. It would also explain the appearance of narcissism, they don't communicate well and can come off sounding like arrogant dickheads. The narcissism didn't strike me as actually being narcissism.
DeleteAnd this is the internet so there's always the possibility this isn't a real person, just a troll laughing at all of us psycho-analyzing an imaginary person.
Lol i actually read 50 shades of grey for a bit, i was curious. Only the first book, it was a pdf. I didn't bother with "The Notebook" though.
Delete@Til: I can see through most men easily so you definitely won't be able to fool me, if we ever knew each other, by pretending to be a sensitive 'bad' boy. Having said that, it might work on other girls. lol
Yah, it might be a prankster just enjoying the show, but anyways it brings up some interzsting discussion (not like any of us actually care about his self search and discovery).
DeleteKitty, if you're a sociopath probably not, I've never met (at least I don't think) a sociopath girl. But as to other girls, it's the fact that they try to read me that gives me an advantage. While they think they've got everything figured out and are in charge because they think they can see through me, I on the other hand I'm in charge of what they see on the surface and what they read between the lines. Before I try to win any girl over I tell them exactly how it works. That I don't fall in love but merely get interested temporarily, that no girls have ever changed that. That I won't change, and that I'm not capable of changing, but because they try to over read what they see girls become more and more interested in uncovering the mystery and being the one that change me. And that if I told them how it works they're most likely the next one.
You probably haven't met a female sociopath in real life. I doubt there are many real ones for a couple of reasons. When a woman has one copy of the warrior gene, it makes her less depression prone but doesn't increase the risk of her being antisocial. Women with two copies are rare, presumably two copies makes the gene behave the same way as it does in men. But having the warrior gene alone isn't enough to make you a socio/antisocial; about 1/3 of men carry it. You need a collection of other genes too, and you're still not guaranteed to be one. Genes are only 40-60% of personality.
DeleteIn women even if you have the genes, you still have hormones to contend with. Testosterone decreases the connection between the orbito-frontal cortex and the limbic system, whereas estrogen strengthens the connection. The OFC is one of the parts of the brain that has reduced connectivity in socios.
Even with having been in the military, which should attract socios like mad, I've only met two people I think might have been. My family's pretty screwy, but I'm the only socio. My mother's the closest thing to another female socio I've met, but she's still not, just antisocial. Contrary to what a lot of sensational and alarmist books, articles, and websites are saying, I think socios of either gender are rare, but females exceedingly so.
Dev, please kill yourself.
DeleteThanks.
@Til: Thankfully, (or not), i am just like you. Tons of guys, well, some, have tried to make me fall in love with them but it always ends up the other way around. They can however, make me interested in them. Once i get fixated on someone i'll become the girl of their dreams, pretty much. They will be my favorite boy toy for awhile. After i get tired of you, they are non existent to me. And yes, just like you, no guy has been able to change "that" part of me or rather, who i am. So yeah, if we met, i wouldn't fall prey to you. ;)
DeleteMmmm... sounds fun XD. I need to find myself a sociopathic woman. I wonder how that game would end up. Two people trying to analyze and out play each other. With people who spend there days doing that to other people I wonder how it wound end.
DeleteHello everyone! I must apologize for the delay in my response as I, embarrassingly enough, forgot I even sent this email. I feel as though I should clear some things up, first things first, I am not male, biologically or otherwise. I'm less worried about having ASPD and more worried about just being straight up not-right. I had serve childhood depression, followed by some time of anxiety disorder in adolescence. I don't think 'emotional flatness' is the right term, I apologize as I was somewhat vague in my email, as content or emotionally neutral may be more appropriate. The thing that made me really wonder if ASPD was what I had was the 'mask-wearing' as I don't know of any other disorders with this characteristic (besides Borderline, but I just don't have the anger). If you have any questions or general curiosities, (that is if anyone is still here) feel free to ask.
DeleteBrownyn is an interesting name, I actually know a chick named Bronwyn.
DeleteI thought about this for a bit, and realized the author sounds similar to a guy I dated for awhile. He was a more aggressive and not very emotional personality, which was exacerbated by alexythymia. He was prone to depression though, and the symptoms were not what people usually think of when they hear "depression". A depressive bout resulted in misanthropic aggression and manipulativeness (which seemed to be caused by an unconscious sense of frustration and hopelessness), emotional flatness, and anhedonia. The way the author writes, and what he writes, about not feeling make me think depression. Sociopathic emotional flatness has a different quality to it. I've never heard of anhedonia being a problem common to sociopaths, it's certainly never been a problem for me personally.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Dr. G that the author wants a diagnosis, and is mad that he can't get one. Her analysis might be spot on (she is the shrink after all), but I'll throw in my two cents anyway. I think what the author might be going through would be analogous to seeing the doctor and giving a list of your symptoms, then the doctor telling you he can't find anything wrong. Yet, you still feel awful, and are angry that he won't do his job. Based off the narrative, it sounds like the author is well into adulthood, so acting out as a symptom of depression probably wouldn't be the first thing to come to the therapist's mind. Acting out due to depression, is more common among children and adolescents.
Why would anyone in their right mind even want to be diagnosed with ASPD.
ReplyDeleteIt's the same as severing one of your own limbs, there aren't any benefits to it.
This diagnosis is actually a libertarian's dream.
ReplyDeleteThat's probably why there's so much hype surrounding this little label.
Petty.
I could agree with the numb cerebral benign narc thing or a person with a mix of sociopathic and schizoid traits.
ReplyDeleteAre some regulars still around? Medusa, Misanthrope, Ukan, our lovely Jewish psychic, ...
ReplyDeleteSW has new regulars. And a lot more new people starting to participate for the first time, these past few days. IQ is a bit higher than it used to be. Hope you are not disappointed. Oh, but wait, Bite Me will be back anytime. And Medusa aka Tee Hee aka vegitopath is still around Mmm, ok now I have jinked it. Are you the Anon who posted about Zhawq the other day?
DeleteI'm Kitty, and i'm the one who posted about Zhawq the other day. It wasn't whoever that wrote this. I made myself anonymous but since this isn't my real name either i figured it'd be fine to post this.
DeleteThe sociopath spectrum referenced in the first comment makes perfect sense. I had a hard time wondering if I could be a sociopath before figuring out that it's easily possible to have some of the traits, though not all, that are included in the psych communities checklists.
ReplyDeleteWhereas I do most socio and psychopathic things, there are some I've never done, not even once. I'd say don't bother too much with the label and definition of sociopath, or with internal debate about whether you fit the bill or not. You know what you are.
Personally, i'd never want to get diagnosed clinically because then people would be wary of me. It's too much of a hassle and frankly a waste of time. You don't even get anything out of it :<
ReplyDeleteIt's only an issue if you tell people. The clinician is obligated under law not to tell anyone unless you are an imminent threat to self or others, and the diagnosis itself is not enough to warrant that. I've had a diagnosis for around 15 years, and only one person in my life knows it (not including the clinician). But yes, other than clarity where there was none, the diagnosis is worthless, and is a sizable risk to have, which is ironically a little exciting and funny as far as secrets go.
DeleteLabels restrict you. Carve your own path through society.
ReplyDelete"Sociopath" is only an ill defined label.
If you actually want to know your personality, read the following 3 books:
"The New Chinese Astrology" by Suzanne White, "Chaldean Numerology For Beginners," by Heather Lagan, and "Personality Types" by Don
Richard Riso.
If you get these three books you can see how wonderful these methods
are. Take the scintalating Jodi Ann Arias. She was born on July 9, 1980.
The Year of the Metal Monkey. Monkey women. They are the bomb.
Super sexy. Wicked and conniving. They can charm the rattle off a snake.
Travis was a gonner the moment he laid eyes on her. The Monkey and
the Horse are BAD for each other. The Horse (Travis) pushes her to do
things she'd rather not.
Look at the first letter of Jodi's name, "J." "J" people never forget an offense. See how "J" points back towards the past? "Jodi" adds to 13.
POSSIBLE evil number. "Ann" (What Jodi aspires to be) adds to 11.
A "Master" number. Jodi is adept at many things. She takes pictures,
she paints, she carves with her "metal" knife.
Jodi's entire name of Jodi Ann Arias adds up to 23, which reduces to 5, a
number in search of sex and stimulation.
Jodi is a number 3 on the Ennagram scale. She is a "motiovational" type,
as was Travis. The both APPEARED to have it together, but it was all show.
I had M.E.'s name analyised. It was on the net for a few mounths. It
reveled that M.E. was no sociopath. She's actually a very loving woman.
I'm so glad she teaches adults rather then horny adolescents. I wouldn't
want to see a Philip Chism in her future.
How quaint. Although I'm disappointed that you didn't mention the number three reigning throughout the world, or anything Pythagorean; he had much to say on the influence of numbers on the universe. Perhaps I should clarify, in case my references to classical numerology conceal my disdain too well - comment with an educated opinion, perhaps supported by scientific logic and reason, rather than spouting information that you do not understand and/or have the inclination to explain. In case you haven't been reading the comments on this site, most people here hold science above esoterism, and I am inclined to accept their viewpoint above that of an amateur who believes that three books of pseudo-occult thought makes them an expert on psychological dysfunction.
DeleteYou still take modern science seriously?
DeleteHave fun with that.
Your numerology doesn't make my coffee maker run, or stop me from spontaneously floating off into space.
DeleteHave fun with that.
Hilarious. So in which way your apathetic behavior has to do with sociopathy? Because you can lie, manipulate for your own sake? Everybody can do that, without feeling guilty. Sociopathy is not a momentary 'personality' trait, it's a thing that affects your life daily. Haven't you thought that maybe you're just apathetic and that's it? Why so eager on being diagnosed? Some might say that ignorance is bliss, anyway.
ReplyDeleteObsession will get you nowhere.
I don't crave power because I feel like I am already marinating in it.
ReplyDeleteI also like to be honest, but I have no problem lying if I have to. I think lying is morally okay as long as you do not feel guilty about it.
I have zero desire to manipulate people, I feel like I am doing too much of that already.
More and more Jeliza, I'm thinking you don't sound very sociopathic. Did a psychologist actually diagnose you with ASPD?
ReplyDeleteNo, self-diagnosed. I definitely do not feel emotions or empathy. I feel happiness though, and joy. I have friends, and I like them and they like me. But I cannot empathize anymore.. (I used to have problems empathizing as a child too but was taught empathy after an incident where i tortured and almost killed my best friend (my cat)) So where does that leave me? I'm not overly concerned with categorizing myself but if you were to put me on the empath-sociopath scale, I would definately lean toward sociopath. No one that knows me would ever characterize me that way, I don't think. Everyone is always telling me how compassionate I am and that sort of thing. But I think compassion is bullshit to be honest. I rely on my gut and like yes I am a sociopath at heart. But a good sociopath usually never wants to come across as one..
DeleteLike I know what goes on in my head and well yeah.
DeleteAre you a real doctor? Can you explain to me why I don't sound very sociopathic?
DeleteI can be very empathetic too... but thats not the same thing as me being able to feel empathy.
DeleteActing empathetic isn't the same thing as feeling empathy.
Deleteright!
DeleteJeliza,
ReplyDeleteIn response to your question, I have a Ph.D. in psychology. You say you don't experience emotions. Would you consider happiness and joy emotions? Interesting story about your cat. Are you saying you experienced empathy as a result of what was done? I also noticed in another comment that you now mostly adhere to a vegan diet. Is that for health reasons, or ethical reasons?
Good questions, really made me think. Give me some time to reflect on that a bit I will get back to you.
ReplyDeleteBut yes i know some things are just wacky. Sociopaths who care about animal rights.. and can feel joy. Sociopaths who love their family and friends above all. Weird eh?
DeleteIn one of my first psychology courses we were shown a video of a man who was diagnosed with ASPD. He engaged in illegal activity, used and exploited people, was a con artist, but he emphasized that he would never hurt a child or an animal. Sometimes animals fall within their moral system. Whitey Bulger comes to mind.
DeleteFor example, back right after high school we broke into of our ex-friend's houses. He was 28 but had no trouble molesting 14 year old girls who were too afraid to say no. Anyways we wanted drugs and we knew his dad was out of town. So we had one of our friends (the girl he was into) make sure that he wasn't home by asking him to buy alcohol for her and to meet her downtown, at the other end of the city (she was not of age yet). Meanwhile we get in through his back door and take all his CDs and DVD's as well as his X-Box and some rental games (just so that he would get in trouble with the rental store) we also took his diary and his sketchbook. When he got home he phoned his best friend (one of us 3) and told her what had happened.
ReplyDeleteShe went over to his place with some flowers she picked from someone's garden and was his emotional support for a couple hours, while me and my other friend hid kindof far away. Anyways we split it all 3 ways. I think I saved my money and didn't buy drugs.
It was just a fun experience over all. Although I would never do that kind of thing again.
DeleteBut like a lot of my friends have been sociopaths. We have more to talk about. Its harder to relate with empaths unless we someone bring out the best in eachother.
ReplyDeleteSticks out as a schizoid, the anecdotes toward the end don't mean much to me. You describe anhedonia and a lack of ego boundaries. Sociopaths are flexible in that regard, but they still command respect for whatever front they are putting up. You don't care. I find most these questions easy to answer, especially given the forum, most of these are depressives and schizoids looking for a sexy diagnosis. There's a strong lack of action in most of these stories, less antisociality than most empaths. Inhibition and introspection have to be pointed out as antithesis of sociopathy.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that while you tend to have a general sociopathic list of tendencies they are just that. You should research Nihilism. While you choose to exceed with as little effort as possible your true nature is that you do what is required to succeed without going above and beyond yet you don't care where you fit inon a social scale is displayed by your lack of care in being above or below someone.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if schizoid would be right. I like to be social, and I'm like never depressed or sad. It is true that I like to exceed with as little effort as possible but I believe in the law of least effort. You get more done, the less you try. I just want to treat everyone as my equal. But I find I have a bit god complex that I try to hide. Remember this is the internet people act different on here. If you met me in person then I'd be more interested to see what you think of my diagnosis. Anyways, I do like to identify myself as sociopathic (although I'm sure not all sociopaths are the same). I used to be extremely empathetic person. Not sure what happened but I do not feel that empathy feeling anymore. It was a good feeling I think I guess i traded it in ??
ReplyDeleteAnyways I'm not as curious about my diagnosis as you are, since a diagnosis is just a grouping of symptoms. I'm just interested in learning more about myself.
ReplyDeleteI love questions though, and I do appreciate the input. Researched those things but they don't fit.
ReplyDelete"Stop wasting time in playing a role or a concept. Instead, learn to ACTUALIZE YOURSELF, your potential." ~Bruce Lee
ReplyDeleteAs an empath, I can tell you one thing. All that I have read in the comments feels completely insane to me. Nothing here makes any sense. Too many words and too many lines of thought being granted baseless validity that exists only in your own minds. There is something very painful and repelling with these comments, I have to persistently fight my revolting instincts. Lines of thought don't give reality to events, beliefs and people you love. An empath believes and hence experiences reality. A psychopath believes in and experiences simulation.
ReplyDeleteI see the kid Muhammad understanding himself more coherently than he ever has. Sentiment is for the loser, right? Whatever. Has always found his sense of self shallow. Highly unaware of his self-talk. Wonders if childhood abuse blunted this? Doesn't learn from past failures. Is he a narcissist, yes. On the spectrum. Don't really care where. Others have questioned this since HS. Treats family no different than others. Dad's efforts to reach him are laughable. Wears a "quiet" mask around family & has for as long as he can remember. (They don’t know the first damn thing about him) Why is his awareness of this just now surfacing? Lying to himself? Hasn’t ever cared? He doesn't know. Has always intentionally started arguments with new GF’s prior to family functions while first integrating them into the household. Unsure if this was intentional or just came as second nature? Probably the latter. Is that consistent? I don’t find much of Muhammed to be “calculated” rather “calculating” is simply in his nature. reflex. not as finely-tuned as others sometimes. Wonders when others had their "awakening" or how that played out for them? As he delved into the textbooks intellectually, found himself baffled, astonished. Is this me? the voice in his head always said yes. Could relate to it so well. Sadism being the tricky one. It's there in blips. Blunted response to trauma = doesn't care. Can TOTALLY understand why Brian targeted him. How the he!! do you think he calmly sat down with him @ the airport that day? Even then Muhammad had no empirical evidence. Brian's efforts to stifle him off the scent months later only confused the kid. But no more. Is this typical? Upon first interacting with one another -- to have a period of I flex you flex showdown? I don't like it but I don't fear it. Outside of tears from self-pity (narc) will tear up over soccer (lol) but never anything else. My guess is soccer (team) is subconscious realization that the human “team” approach to life is, and always will be, lost on him. Has looked across the couch to his father (also in tears) in those moments his whole life without ever feeling as tho he is his son. Kayaking trips = silence. Finds it funny how father tries the same ole stuff to relate by, never getting anywhere. Feels love for family, and for a select few people, but it isn't anywhere close to normal. Has only recently started acknowledging this with potential partners. Feels this will significantly help him in relationships w/ those he wishes to keep around. Despises (eventually) most every girl he's slept with, some right away. When recounting so-called ‘horrific’ childhood memories (many) feels no attachment to them whatsoever. As those around him cry (aunt) feels no attachment to their pain either. The voice of his mother mocking dad for being 'too nice' (night in, night out) runs through his head & generally projects out toward everyone in his life. More on mommy & her crackhead ass later. I think the mitigating factor for Muhammad may be the fact that nobody in his family is “emotional.” Father, while saintly, is of a wise mind. Has never set boundaries & is least controlling parent you could imagine. Again, family have been strangers his whole life but he’ll tell you otherwise. Only ever dated one non-narc. In relationships with other narcs always maintained upper hand & was callous above their callousness. HS gf cheated on him, best sex of his life to that point ensued. Doesn't care. One ex is laughably narcissistic. Has fun toying with her but wants her around.
ReplyDeleteUp until relationship with uber-emotional ex kid had skated through life never really having to deal with anyone's helplessly weak gross-a$$ emotions. Narc exes were a walk in the park after crazy bitch cunt of a mother. Those heated fights with uber-emotional ex may be the most telling. Narc rage for sure. But then why not with other exes? *Brian, you wise ass, forgetabout the piss-drunk sh!t* During rage fits w/ emotional ex M observes himself from a 3rd person vantage - only there intellectually. attacks weaknesses. ALWAYS observed this about Brian but didn't care. They both could talk themselves into or out of anything. Miss those UK bar nights. Grandiose in covert ways. you think he's a drama queen? Meh. Consider that emotional ex was persistent to the point (bike over) that it would inhibit his ability 2 have his fun without her. Which he would. She was easy to manipulate. Have his cake, eat it too. Few friends. Her social life was important to him. And a source of fun. Brian knows about all those teeny bopper chicken clucking showdowns in the downtown house. Laughed at her tears got called out for smiles the whole bit. Probably despises his pet more upon making up tho. How weak. Doesn’t care that he’s cost it years of his life. Seeking something less volatile for sure. His homefront with the Jihadists isn't helping. feigns “guilt” over ex to cover himself 80 ways to Sunday & seemed to always think Brian bought into this? Is it Friday night? Perhaps the timing (first ever battle with weak emotional person in mid 20’s) accounts for the delayed enlightenment? In therapy, sensed his own “computer monitor” going blank when asked to recite his feelings aloud. Sought not to manipulate his therapist out of a genuine desire to understand himself. Left baffled. Stopped going. Chirps about "taking credit for his mistakes" & how he “first seeks to figure out where he went wrong” although these are merely a means to an end (quieting you) Nanny recounts his doing this as early as age 5? Those statements may also be (intellectually) his way of learning how his behavior can be less abrasive. **Key going forward but surely nothing new** The bonehead is known for his phone voice yet it frequently goes dull & lifeless, then back again, depending on how interesting the person on the other end of the phone is. Despite having significantly blunted emotions (might feel something for a second or two) his EQ must be high:
ReplyDelete-three consecutive years as top software salesperson ( age 20, 21, and 22 )
-this, among 42 college-educated peers. (college dropout himself )
-this, while beating the 2nd place finisher by a 2 to 1 margin ( ruthless ) Is it not one of the hardest things in life to celebrate another mans success? Again, I can see why M was targeted. He had fallen down. If I were you, I'd have messed with the kid too. to what extent? who knows. He was at his most sadistic in the workplace. Power breeds power. This is the most honest the kid has been about 'who he is' in his entire f#@%$ing life. Time to masturbate.
Wouldn't surprise me if he broke his dogs hind leg & the thing limped a bit the rest of its life. Concepts like traumatic bonding probably jumped right off the page & immediately resonated with this asshole. And his dog probably still loved him. How pathetic.
ReplyDelete