From a reader:
I have just finished reading your book, Confessions of a Sociopath, and appreciate so much the wider view I have gained as a result. Having read every published work on sociopathy previous to yours, I had become disheartened by the firmly held clinical theory that all sociopaths are “unredeemable” and therefore not worth the effort to help them to manage to live among “the rest of us” (whoever “we” are). This is a position without hope for the sociopath or those who happen to love them.
I spent all of my adult life trying to understand my childhood and how I was different (and therefore somehow less than) the other members of my family. It was in my graduate education to become a Licensed Mental Health Counselor that I came to understand something that years of therapy had not shown me: that both of my parents and two of my siblings are sociopaths. A genogram study of my family-of-origin, going back four generations from mine, looks much like that of an alcoholic family: mostly sociopaths with an “empath” or two thrown in for fun. My antecessors and contemporaries were not the productive-but-easily-bored variety, however.
Fortunately, naming a thing can grant one dominion over it, and this was the effect of that understanding for me. All the literature pointed to the fact that it was “them” and not “me”’ thus providing me with the permission to “feel” and also the label of “normalcy.” I determined not to repeat the past.
Unfortunately, though, one of my own children, my only daughter, is also a sociopath. Her birth 27 years ago provided the impetus for a different view of the “problem.” How can one not be part of the “problem” while also producing a child, which by all accounts, is “damaged goods?” Her lack of empathy, fear, and conscience, as well as her intelligence, manifested themselves at the age of 14 months in a single event that I captured in pictures because I was so baffled by it: When I left the kitchen for a brief minute, this child climbed from the floor to the top of a wire-shelved pantry, removed an unopened 5 lb. bag of flour from the top shelf, climbed back down, opened the bag with a sharp knife retrieved from a drawer with a toddler lock on it, and began loading the flour into the cat food dish on the floor to “make them stop crying, and you took too long.” She was angry and NOT worried about the cats. She was angry with me for leaving the room. She also moved to “fix” the problem of the crying cats by feeding them in a way she had identified as a means to her own sustenance. I did not at that time know the significance of that cluster of behaviors.
This child’s lack of fear and empathy caused me so much distress in her early years that her brothers are significantly younger than she is. I knew I did not have the capacity, and I certainly lacked any sort of empathic filial support, to bring another child into the world until this one was pretty much self-sufficient. She marched off to kindergarten about the time her first brother was born. Her entry to school seemed like a much-needed break from the “watchful” parenting and constant lessons in application of the Golden Rule. However, this was when the real problems began, as public schooling only served to exacerbate the difficulties she encountered in trying to “fit in” with their fungible “rules” and lack of training in any sort of excellence. We tried private schooling, Christian education, and finally ended up homeschooling her (and her brothers) so that she might adopt a set of values not unlike the ones you described having in your book. It also became necessary to terminate contact with unproductive and sadistic sociopathic relatives.
All of this served to produce a woman who is beautiful, somewhat ruthless, intelligent, talented, and never governed by her emotions. I think she cares for her brothers, and she is always checking in with me to make sure she handles relationship and communication issues with coworkers appropriately. She never emotionally eats or drinks. She moved to NYC about 3 years ago right under our noses with a man more than twice her age so that she could live the big city life. She dumped him like a hot potato (on Valentine’s Day, no less!) when he decided that at 60, he might like her to join him in living a slower, more rural life in Iowa. She went back to NYC and slept on the couches of “people in her network” (“friends” to us empaths), tolerating circumstances for months that more feelings-oriented folks would find intolerable for the sake of her own goals. She is currently seducing her next “provider” because “it is simply unacceptable for me to live for long in a three-bedroom apartment in this city with two other people without demoralizing them or wanting to ruin them, Mom.” I do not subsidize her lifestyle because that would be to invite the ruin of us both, and I often feel like the ethereal father of the sociopathic killer on the series “Dexter” working to help her to identify “the code” by which to live the most fulfilling life possible. I don’t know whether she actually loves me, or not. I love her deeply, and have thanked God every day that he should give me the daughter I had wanted as a young woman nurturing her precious life in my womb. I focus on being the kind of mother I need to be, doing what is best for my adult child as I did when she was an infant. I think she has taken the tools I have given her and put them to mostly good use. She has taught me not to ask God for what I want, but to be thankful for what I get.
I appreciated your view that sociopaths are just different. This is what makes the world go round, and my belief in an all-knowing and perfect Creator informs me that just as Judas was part of God’s plan for the redemption of mankind through Christ, my daughter has a purpose known to him, too. I had questions of faith with respect to the definition of words like redemption, sin, forgiveness, remorse, and evil. I have come to believe that sociopathy cannot be a mistake, but is, rather, an act of creation and for the benefit of mankind. Sociopaths are fearless, and in difficult times, this is defined as “courage”. Your book was very helpful to me in the challenge it provided intellectually, maternally, spiritually, morally, professionally, and personally. I wanted you to know this. Thank you for taking the time to read this letter.
I have just finished reading your book, Confessions of a Sociopath, and appreciate so much the wider view I have gained as a result. Having read every published work on sociopathy previous to yours, I had become disheartened by the firmly held clinical theory that all sociopaths are “unredeemable” and therefore not worth the effort to help them to manage to live among “the rest of us” (whoever “we” are). This is a position without hope for the sociopath or those who happen to love them.
I spent all of my adult life trying to understand my childhood and how I was different (and therefore somehow less than) the other members of my family. It was in my graduate education to become a Licensed Mental Health Counselor that I came to understand something that years of therapy had not shown me: that both of my parents and two of my siblings are sociopaths. A genogram study of my family-of-origin, going back four generations from mine, looks much like that of an alcoholic family: mostly sociopaths with an “empath” or two thrown in for fun. My antecessors and contemporaries were not the productive-but-easily-bored variety, however.
Fortunately, naming a thing can grant one dominion over it, and this was the effect of that understanding for me. All the literature pointed to the fact that it was “them” and not “me”’ thus providing me with the permission to “feel” and also the label of “normalcy.” I determined not to repeat the past.
Unfortunately, though, one of my own children, my only daughter, is also a sociopath. Her birth 27 years ago provided the impetus for a different view of the “problem.” How can one not be part of the “problem” while also producing a child, which by all accounts, is “damaged goods?” Her lack of empathy, fear, and conscience, as well as her intelligence, manifested themselves at the age of 14 months in a single event that I captured in pictures because I was so baffled by it: When I left the kitchen for a brief minute, this child climbed from the floor to the top of a wire-shelved pantry, removed an unopened 5 lb. bag of flour from the top shelf, climbed back down, opened the bag with a sharp knife retrieved from a drawer with a toddler lock on it, and began loading the flour into the cat food dish on the floor to “make them stop crying, and you took too long.” She was angry and NOT worried about the cats. She was angry with me for leaving the room. She also moved to “fix” the problem of the crying cats by feeding them in a way she had identified as a means to her own sustenance. I did not at that time know the significance of that cluster of behaviors.
This child’s lack of fear and empathy caused me so much distress in her early years that her brothers are significantly younger than she is. I knew I did not have the capacity, and I certainly lacked any sort of empathic filial support, to bring another child into the world until this one was pretty much self-sufficient. She marched off to kindergarten about the time her first brother was born. Her entry to school seemed like a much-needed break from the “watchful” parenting and constant lessons in application of the Golden Rule. However, this was when the real problems began, as public schooling only served to exacerbate the difficulties she encountered in trying to “fit in” with their fungible “rules” and lack of training in any sort of excellence. We tried private schooling, Christian education, and finally ended up homeschooling her (and her brothers) so that she might adopt a set of values not unlike the ones you described having in your book. It also became necessary to terminate contact with unproductive and sadistic sociopathic relatives.
All of this served to produce a woman who is beautiful, somewhat ruthless, intelligent, talented, and never governed by her emotions. I think she cares for her brothers, and she is always checking in with me to make sure she handles relationship and communication issues with coworkers appropriately. She never emotionally eats or drinks. She moved to NYC about 3 years ago right under our noses with a man more than twice her age so that she could live the big city life. She dumped him like a hot potato (on Valentine’s Day, no less!) when he decided that at 60, he might like her to join him in living a slower, more rural life in Iowa. She went back to NYC and slept on the couches of “people in her network” (“friends” to us empaths), tolerating circumstances for months that more feelings-oriented folks would find intolerable for the sake of her own goals. She is currently seducing her next “provider” because “it is simply unacceptable for me to live for long in a three-bedroom apartment in this city with two other people without demoralizing them or wanting to ruin them, Mom.” I do not subsidize her lifestyle because that would be to invite the ruin of us both, and I often feel like the ethereal father of the sociopathic killer on the series “Dexter” working to help her to identify “the code” by which to live the most fulfilling life possible. I don’t know whether she actually loves me, or not. I love her deeply, and have thanked God every day that he should give me the daughter I had wanted as a young woman nurturing her precious life in my womb. I focus on being the kind of mother I need to be, doing what is best for my adult child as I did when she was an infant. I think she has taken the tools I have given her and put them to mostly good use. She has taught me not to ask God for what I want, but to be thankful for what I get.
I appreciated your view that sociopaths are just different. This is what makes the world go round, and my belief in an all-knowing and perfect Creator informs me that just as Judas was part of God’s plan for the redemption of mankind through Christ, my daughter has a purpose known to him, too. I had questions of faith with respect to the definition of words like redemption, sin, forgiveness, remorse, and evil. I have come to believe that sociopathy cannot be a mistake, but is, rather, an act of creation and for the benefit of mankind. Sociopaths are fearless, and in difficult times, this is defined as “courage”. Your book was very helpful to me in the challenge it provided intellectually, maternally, spiritually, morally, professionally, and personally. I wanted you to know this. Thank you for taking the time to read this letter.
It would be interesting to know more about these "tools" that this mother gave to her sociopath daughter...
ReplyDeleteIt looks like however, the genetic part of the child couldn't be changed, but that this girl has learned (at least partly) to not damage too much people around her (“it is simply unacceptable for me to live for long in a three-bedroom apartment in this city with two other people without demoralizing them or wanting to ruin them, Mom.”).
I've noticed also that many sociopaths are ready to stay in minimalist conditions (a kind of negation of oneself) as this letter shows "tolerating circumstances for months that more feelings-oriented folks would find intolerable for the sake of her own goals".
Because the alternative is worse in the long run. I still leech off of family occasionally by playing a few strings and don't feel bad about it, but I know where to temper it by not exhausting opportunities and people. Once you are aware enough and can understand your behavior enough, you know the necessity of practicing some restraint. That fulfilling all wants and desires is not preferable due to its destructiveness, because you know that down the line some of those wants won't stop, and lead to an accumulation of burned bridges that eventually catch up to you. Good for short-term gains, but poor for long-term, especially if your goal is a multi-year plan (say, using a personal example, paying for an advanced degree, but you can pick your poison like a career and/or advanced education). Foregoing luxury means dedicating more resources to your goal, which allows it to be accomplished faster and/or better.
DeleteYou are still fulfilling your want, but in this case your want is bigger and requires time. Tolerate now to reap the benefits later.
What happens if you run out of important goals, what is giving pleasure to you, which type of interaction with people do you like and which not?
DeleteWhat happens to anyone who does not have goals in their life? Sociopaths are not unique in that, though the reaction may be one more out of ennui than depression.
DeleteAs for preferred type of interaction, that is dependant on the person you are with, what you want, and what type is most effective in getting what you want with that person. It also depends on the situation, the people around you, what effect or influence they can have on what you want, and so forth. There are multiple factors which must be considered to be able to pick the right type.
I would like also to add something I read :
ReplyDelete"Antisocial Personality Disorder appears to be associated with socio-economic levels and disadvantaged urban environments. It was feared that this diagnosis is misapplied to people who live in environments where antisocial behavior may respond to a strategy to protect and survive."
I would be curious to know what sociopaths think about this?
It makes sense from an environmental development perspective, which is the other half of the coin (the first half being genetics). Anecdotally, I lived in a lower-middle class family with an alcoholic and unsupportive drug dealer for one parent (until dying) and an overworked and non-attentive other. But that's one example. Seeing more examples would help.
Delete"and an overworked and non-attentive "... I can identify with this one. It's interesting how with personality disorders it's a constant balancing act. There are times where I want to rip through people like a tornado, but I have to conceal that part of me because otherwise I will be seen as abusive, and people won't want to have anything to do with me, yet there are other times when the aggression is warranted so I have to determine when it's appropriate to display that side of me to ultimately achieve my goal whatever that may be.
DeleteBalancing act is aptly put. One act of perceived abuse does not equal one period of distrust or dislike. It's persistent. You "pay" for not managing yourself continually.
DeleteI am an Empath, living abroad in a developing country, in small village where everybody has family links...so genetic links.
Delete30 years ago, people had very few, and very poor education.
It really looks like a sociopath village, so the major part of the people are on the sociopath system, and the empaths a small anormal minority.
So i think that this would really match here: "people who live in environments where antisocial behavior may respond to a strategy to protect and survive"
Yes Bob, I would say that it is like "using" a fake Chanel bag. At first sight it looks like the original, but as time goes on you see small signs that proves that it is a fake one, and then you get disappointed (a feeling close to the M.E. "sickened"...you bought a real bag, but it was a fake one. You have been deceived.)
DeleteBut if it carries everything you want, and looks just like a real Chanel bag to most, how has it disgusted and betrayed you? Unlike those bags, you don't pay full price when you get your friends.
DeleteWhy I would feel betrayed, because first I would have paid full price (I would not be aware of the fact that it was a fake one), then with time I would see that the quality of the bag is not good, so it can broke for example...and my belongings are not safe.
DeleteI would feel betrayed because the seller lied to me when I give him full trust. And honesty is an important value to me.
Someone like me wishes a nice life, without problems, and don't want liars around, don't want to be suspicious all the time.
Nobody likes that someone tries to manipulate or take control on him.
We agree that some people in the world are using lies and manipulation for their own interest, but we don't wish to meet them or live close to them.
We just think that these people are using these systems because they are egoists and don't wish good things for others. Most of us don't know that it could be something genetic or something that can't be controlled.
The woman who was sickened, just felt like some people are not honest, and that it is sad and disgusted. But she will survive and be much more suspicious in the future!!
There is something which makes a big difference, Empaths and so on, do really care for the quality of the relation between people.
The fact that a group of people can "match" together well.
Empaths have the natural concern to create unions, make it possible...they didn't choose it, they are like that.
I will copy below the description of what they call an INFP.
For INFPs the dominant quality in their lives is a deep-felt caring and idealism about people. They experience this intense caring most often in their relationships with others, but they may also experience it around ideas, projects, or any involvement they see as important. INFPs are often skilled communicators, and they are naturally drawn to ideas that embody a concern for human potential. INFPs live in the inner world of values and ideals, but what people often first encounter with them in the outer world is their adaptability and concern for possibilities.
DeleteHealer Idealists are abstract in thought and speech, cooperative in striving for their ends, and informative and introverted in their interpersonal relations. Healer present a seemingly tranquil, and noticiably pleasant face to the world, and though to all appearances they might seem reserved, and even shy, on the inside they are anything but reserved, having a capacity for caring not always found in other types. They care deeply-indeed, passionately-about a few special persons or a favorite cause, and their fervent aim is to bring peace and integrity to their loved ones and the world. Healers have a profound sense of idealism derived from a strong personal morality, and they conceive of the world as an ethical, honorable place. Indeed, to understand iNFps, we must understand their idealism as almost boundless and selfless, inspiring them to make extraordinary sacrifices for someone or something they believe in. The iNFp is the Prince or Princess of fairytale, the King's Champion or Defender of the Faith, like Sir Galahad or Joan of Arc. Healers are found in only 1 percent of the general population, although, at times, their idealism leaves them feeling even more isolated from the rest of humanity. Healers seek unity in their lives, unity of body and mind, emotions and intellect, perhaps because they are likely to have a sense of inner division threaded through their lives, which comes from their often unhappy childhood. Healers live a fantasy-filled childhood, which, unfortunately, is discouraged or even punished by many parents. In a practical-minded family, required by their parents to be sociable and industrious in concrete ways, and also given down-to-earth siblings who conform to these parental expectations, iNFps come to see themselves as ugly ducklings. Other types usually shrug off parental expectations that do not fit them, but not the iNFps. Wishing to please their parents and siblings, but not knowing quite how to do it, they try to hide their differences, believing they are bad to be so fanciful, so unlike their more solid brothers and sisters. They wonder, some of them for the rest of their lives, whether they are OK. They are quite OK, just different from the rest of their family-swans reared in a family of ducks. Even so, to realize and really believe this is not easy for them. Deeply committed to the positive and the good, yet taught to believe there is evil in them, iNFps can come to develop a certain fascination with the problem of good and evil, sacred and profane. Tutors are drawn toward purity, but can become engrossed with the profane, continuously on the lookout for the wickedness that lurks within them. Then, when iNFps believe thay have yielded to an impure temptation, they may be given to acts of self-sacrifice in atonement. Others seldom detect this inner turmoil, however, for the struggle between good and evil is within the iNFp, who does not feel compelled to make the issue public.
(Followig on next page)
INFPs never seem to lose their sense of wonder. One might say they see life through rose-colored glasses. It's as though they live at the edge of a looking-glass world where mundane objects come to life, where flora and fauna take on near-human qualitie s. INFP children often exhibit this in a 'Calvin and Hobbes' fashion, switching from reality to fantasy and back again. With few exceptions, it is the NF child who readily develops imaginary playmates (as with Anne of Green Gables's "bookcase girlfriend"--h er own reflection) and whose stuffed animals come to life like the Velveteen Rabbit and the Skin Horse: "...Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand..." (the Skin Horse) INFPs have the ability to see good in almost anyone or anything. Even for the most unlovable the INFP is wont to have pity. Their extreme depth of feeling is often hidden, even from themselves, until circumstances evoke an impassioned response: Of course, not all of life is rosy, and INFPs are not exempt from the same disappointments and frustrations common to humanity. As INTPs tend to have a sense of failed competence, INFPs struggle with the issue of their own ethical perfection, e.g., perfo rmance of duty for the greater cause. An INFP friend describes the inner conflict as not good versus bad, but on a grand scale, Good vs. Evil. Luke Skywalker in Star Wars depicts this conflict in his struggle between the two sides of "The Force." Although the dark side must be reckoned with, the INFP believes that good ultimately triumphs. Some INFPs have a gift for taking technical information and putting it into layman's terms. Brendan Kehoe's Zen and the Art of the Internet is one example of this "de-jargoning" talent in action.
DeleteFunctional Analysis
INFPs live primarily in a rich inner world of introverted Feeling. Being inward-turning, the natural attraction is away from world and toward essence and ideal. This introversion of dominant Feeling, receiving its data from extraverted intuition, must be the source of the quixotic nature of these usually gentle beings. Feeling is caught in the approach- avoidance bind between concern both for people and for All Creatures Great and Small, and a psycho-magnetic repulsion from the same. The "object," be it homo sapiens or a mere representation of an organism, is valued only to the degree that the object contains some measure of the inner Essence or greater Good. Doing a good deed, for example, may provide intrinsic satisfaction which is only secondary to the greater good of striking a blow against Man's Inhumanity to Mankind.
Extraverted intuition faces outward, greeting the world on behalf of Feeling. What the observer usually sees is creativity with implied good will. Intuition spawns this type's philosophical bent and strengthens pattern perception. It combines as auxiliary with introverted Feeling and gives rise to unusual skill in both character development and fluency with language--a sound basis for the development of literary facility. If INTPs aspire to word mechanics, INFPs would be verbal artists.
Sensing is introverted and often invisible. This stealth function in the third position gives INFPs a natural inclination toward absent- mindedness and other-worldliness, however, Feeling's strong people awareness provides a balancing, mitigating effect. This introverted Sensing is somewhat categorical, a subdued version of SJ sensing. In the third position, however, it is easily overridden by the stronger functions.
(Followig on next page)
The INFP may turn to inferior extraverted Thinking for help in focusing on externals and for closure. INFPs can even masquerade in their ESTJ business suit, but not without expending considerable energy. The inferior, problematic nature of Extraverted Thinking is its lack of context and proportion. Single impersonal facts may loom large or attain higher priority than more salient principles which are all but overlooked.
DeleteI had never taken that test before until reading some of the blogs on this site. Mine said I am an ENTJ.
DeleteWould sociopath do that test?
DeleteIt's very accurate in my case...and explains many things that I couldn't explain myself. I feel much more "normal" now, normal as an INFP!
We see also how the aims of the INFP are in real opposition of the Sociopaths "aims". That's why INFP suffers of not understanding the Sociopaths behaviour.
Scored as an INTP once again.
DeleteAssessed as an ENTJ (assertive variant): http://www.16personalities.com/entj-personality
DeleteMakes sense, though it should be noted that Myers-Briggs does not take into account personality disorders.
I've taken the Meyers-Briggs several times over the past 20 years. I always score as an INTJ.
DeleteGod, do I hate XXXJ's.
DeleteGiggity.
DeleteThis exchange is very interesting to me, and also shows me just why SW has been so helpful to me. I am an INFP. As a young woman, I was all F. Now I am almost even on the F and the T component. I think that's because I've learned to lead with my head, not my heart. My heart provides the fuel to continue trying to make the best of a difficult situation, but without my head is destined to be used up and destroyed.
DeleteHere on SW I learn how to to navigate in a world full of people who navigate largely without the fuel or the shackles of empathy. It has done me a lot of good. What I've learned is: be an INTP until you trust someone (not to be confused with- have been seduced by someone- trust comes from a long period of observing patterns of behavior) or unless someone is my dependent child. Those are really the only people I let my "F" tendencies fully out with. And F(feeling) with no T(thinking) is a sitting duck.
As for the different men I have experienced difficulty from: Here are the types: ENTJ (most domineering and on the high functioning end of sociopathy), ENFJ (cruelest, low functioning borderline with extremely high narcissism) and ESTP (low functioning drunk with anger management issues- not terribly bright, but so much fun and incredibly cheerful most of the time- until the rage would come). All three men tried to dominate me, were sexually violent, and fit at least 3/4 of the criteria of "what makes an abuser" even though they were very different. I fell the hardest for ENTJ. Probably because he was so bright. He very nearly destroyed me.
I am currently in the best relationship of my life after a year and a half long "reboot" where I wouldn't let a man get close. This man is an ISTJ. He doesn't try to control me or take advantage of me. My years of dealing with difficult men make me appreciate all that he brings to the table where I probably would've overlooked him before. I was addicted to intelligent men, but could only see intelligence if it came packaged as "N" intelligence- big picture visionaries who loved word play. Now I see that there are other quieter sorts of intelligence.
It does not shock me in the slightest that many of you areE/ INTJ's. They have always been my favorite people. I continue to adore these types- rough edges and all. But I never "come to play" assuming that I am not being played myself… you have taught me quite a bit.
wipes tear....well thank you Mach :)
DeleteYes, well said Mach. I'm glad to hear your in a healthy relationship and happy, sounds like he highlights your personality best. With each of your past relationships you educated yourself & grounded your self-identity stronger. Courageous women and liberating. At one time maybe you would have over -looked this type of individual like you mentioned...but over all its what benefited you ..and fit best. I'm glad you took notice. It says a lot about your character. Best of luck to you both.
DeleteIs there a link to take the test? I wonder where I'd fall on.
@12:02
DeleteSo, you're able to switch your personality type as you wish?
That's quite a notable feat.
K i did my test. Does that mean I have to pull myself up by my boots straps more?
DeleteWait..... I passed. ;)
http://www.humanmetrics.com/hr/JTypesResult.aspx
Be interesting to hear other people's results to the test.
Superchick, I’m curious. What did you get?
DeleteYou can't change your personality type, but you can choose to consciously act in a way that is better suited to a situation. In my case, leading with my heart (an F tendency) doesn't serve me well because my compassion and empathy are weaponized against me by sociopathic personalities. So I am mindful that I must act from the "T" part of me in certain situations to protect myself. Doing this doesn't make me any less an INFP any more than putting on a suit and acting professional means that someone isn't an artist. It's about tailoring your interaction style to the needs of the situation.
DeleteENFP
DeleteExtravert(22%) iNtuitive(69%) Feeling(50%) Perceiving(50%)
You have slight preference of Extraversion over Introversion (22%)
You have distinct preference of Intuition over Sensing (69%)
You have moderate preference of Feeling over Thinking (50%)
You have moderate preference of Perceiving over Judging (50%)
I took the test twice in the past and came out both times as an INTJ. But I think Mach is right, the answers to some of the test questions can vary depending of whether you apply them to your children, your spouse, your family, your friends, your coworkers, your manager, or strangers, or to individuals or a crowd. I think we all adapt our behavior to situations. You do not have to have a personality disorder to be a bit if a chameleon.
DeleteI also think Bob has a point. This test does not take account personality disorders. I bet test results could be widely different for people with personality disorders, particularly sociopaths depending on why they are taking the test, who is bound to look at the results, and how the results will be used. I have seen my sociopath friend test results for a similar test, and they did not match what I thought of him. We discussed it and he agreed with me. But he had been taking that test in one of his "other worlds". And by other world, I mean that, to me, sociopaths build themselves several separate worlds. Work, family and perhaps several others. From what I have seen, they can get very edgy when those worlds inadvertently overlap. Not sure whether this applies to most sociopaths not..
When one tuned behaviour, tuned for one person - has to work with another person in the conversation (with their own separate tuning), it takes a lot of effort to juggle the two without stepping on someone's proverbial toes. For example, let's say someone likes dry humor, and you make sure to act with humor so they like it/you more, you might run into conflict with the other person who is serious (who you act seriously too normally). Being jovial and serious does not quite work - taking into account both personalities and using them can often cause problems. Suddenly you seem to one person, say the serious one, as unusually jovial, or vice versa. You run the risk of making gains socially with one person, but not the other.
DeleteThis is normal for many people (ie. public vs private faces), but it is compounded with sociopaths since they consciously use multiple faces for multiple people (some faces being diametrically opposed to each other). Hence the increased awkwardness, since you are actively trying to be both to both parties, and not accrue losses with one (or both). Which can be annoying, especially if one party is more important/useful to you than the other. You end up assessing the situation and people, and try to bean count (maximize wanted returns while minimizing losses). An astute observer may notice this act.
Maybe a person born without legs is also gods plan? Wake up people. It's just a person whit some missing parts. There are all kinds of people born whit missing or extra parts.
ReplyDeleteThis is an amazing story. It gave me shivers as I was reading it. My admiration and respect go to the mother who wrote the letter, to the immediate family, and to the daughter. It looks like the family has done everything they could to raise a special and obviously highly intelligent child. Homeschooling must have been difficult. It is probably is still heartbreaking for the parents to refuse to help their daughter financially. But this would spell disaster for both the family and the daughter.
ReplyDeleteFrom my experience, it is easy to love a sociopath when you don't know who they are. And it is easy to hate them and want revenge when you discover who they are. It is much harder to continue loving them after the mask is off, or to figure out whether they deserve to be loved...
If you truly understand that they do not love the same way normal people do, not because they won't but because they cannot, and start paying attention at the energy and effort they expand to fit in, then you will start seeing the real person.
To put it in other words, when the mask falls off, what you see is an "asshole" (definition of an asshole: a stupid, mean, or contemptible person.) Some sociopaths are able to go beyond this and they spend their life learning skills that are unnatural to them. (Those skills are the "tools" that are mentioned in the letter, are believe.) And like the daughter in the letter, they try to avoid situations that would cause too much damage to others (and by symbiosis, to themselves, something they also have to learn). In my opinion, those people deserve admiration and respect.
Yes, so true. Many of them are, and do try, to do their best. Now that I understand so much better what is going on, I can act accordingly to support them. Back off when their not in a good space.(that's been a big mistake I've made. Pressuring them when they need space. Often if I leave them alone for a few days, weeks, months, everything changes. They don't want to be confronted, that angers them. I get it now. Thanks to this blog I'm learning how to properly treat and act with a sociopath. And in return it will also make my life a lot easier.(and their's) Like the mom in the story said, she does what she knows will be helpful for her daughter, whom she truly loves.
DeleteI love when old misogynists shack up with a borderline or a sociopath, and they think they have all the power and the control, and then they get their asses handed to them :P
ReplyDeleteI got goosebumps reading the OP's letter. This mother rocks!
ReplyDeleteYes, Goosebumps, me too. I call them shivers. Probably a feeling a sociopath cannot comprehend. It makes me sad when I think of what sociopaths cannot experience. I cannot fathom a life with blunted feelings. I'd rather loose my sight or my hearing than my ability to feel.
DeleteInteresting. Why?
DeleteHaving no feelings would be to me like not being able to test food, never feeling hungry and never feeling sated. You know intellectually you need to eat food to survive but other than that, why bother?
DeleteIf you loose one of your senses like sight or hearing, you can more or less compensate for it by using and developing the other senses. But if you loose emotions and feelings, what do you replace it with?
I believe most sociopaths can experience a range of emotions but perhaps not all of them and there seems to be a much higher trigger point. They need their food to be very salty, very sweet, very sour or very spicy before they can test any of it. Also they cannot recall emotions - they have no emotional memory - so that never feel sated.
But they do feel the hunger. Are they not known for being easily bored? Are they not notorious for seeking excitement and/or constantly yearning to learn and experience new things? They seem to have the same need to feel alive...
That is more or less accurate. Stimulation might be sought for two reasons: 1) the lack of continuous emotional engagement means that something is needed to stay engaged - there still exists curiousity, and the primate anachronism of trying to figure things out (hence why novel experiences are sought out, since the unknown is a curiousity instead of a fear), and 2) there is less inhibition and fear that prevents seeking it out.
DeleteThings that are interesting in that moment truly are interesting, regardless of how far removed they are from the usual. If there is any "fear" for a sociopath, it is the fear of banality and routine. I would say it is one of the reasons why it is that much harder to keep a job after a couple years - you've experienced the majority of what the job encounters and are only repeating it. I loathe that. Banality is like the sociopathic version of cubicle hell. It's one of the reasons why after two careers I'm now into academia and research, because I have found there is always something new coming out of it, even if it is sometimes minor, pedantic, or slow to come to fruition. And at the very least, you get to mix things up on occasion, and deal with things and people more on your intellectual level. All of this is of course dependent on other attributes or circumstances - a sociopath without high intelligence may not be interested in that, for example (not all sociopaths possess high intelligence, just like all other categories you may use with real people). Or they can't afford it (again, universally applicable to everyone).
As for a greater threshold to experiencing a more empathetic response, that's more hit and miss. Both little and large things can stimulate it, but not necessarily to any predictable degree. It is one of the more perplexing idiosyncrasies. Just like how if you engage yourself into the moment and fake it well enough, sometimes you illicit it internally (you force those neural pathways into use). Human neurology at work.
Old & Wise - It is a curse and a gift.
DeleteFor empaths emotional engagement is not only a source of motivation but it is also energy-consuming. There is more energy left for socios.
DeleteI wonder if socios can think nothing for a few minutes?
Probably not all empaths, since extraverts typically feel more energized after a (positive) emotional engagement. As for energy left over for sociopaths, not necessarily. Emotional "engagement" takes effort to consciously get involved in - appearing and behaving appropriately moment to moment - and can become mentally exhausting and/or irritating after a while.
DeleteAs for "thinking nothing", people who engage in meditation or some other alpha-wave inducing state can consciously block out various stimuli, such as sights or sounds. This is also not sociopathically-exclusive.
Very true - the constant need to engage correctly correctly and at the right times can take a toll on the mental energy front. It takes constant effort - and while I'm used to having to do it, it gets irritating to deal with certain people in this fashion - which does nothing for the already present effort (it takes more effort to engage correctly when the person is irritating).
DeleteAs for "thinking nothing" - when surrounded by other people, I generally can't afford to do so in case I don't slip into the facade fast enough. "Thinking nothing" could be seen as "zoning out", but if the reaction time back to projecting emotional "engagement" isn't fast enough, people start to suspect something is off.
"Anyone can become angry -- that is easy. But to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right way -- this is not easy."
ReplyDeleteAristotle on anger
Heartwarming.
ReplyDeleteWhat a wonderful mother! I hope that the socio daughter, if she has children, puts as much effort into parenting them. My narc mother was/is rarely present. Even if she's physically there, she has her nose stuck in a newspaper and has limited interest in what's going on with her daughters.
ReplyDelete"I have come to believe that sociopathy cannot be a mistake, but is, rather, an act of creation and for the benefit of mankind. Sociopaths are fearless, and in difficult times, this is defined as 'courage'."
What about narcissists? I can't quite get my head around the idea that people who are parasitic on others - who aim to go undetected - have been created for the benefit of mankind.
Carrie
I don't believe in god, but I do believe that life is easier when it is right balanced.
DeleteAre sociopaths here to remind the dreamer ones the realities of the society, the dark/cold part of it?
Whatever, they remind all of us of the damages done by the lack of love, abuses, lack of care...
But for the genetic part...it is something else. I have just read an article about how people from Nepal have a genetic predisposition to live in high altitudes.
If I'm not wrong, genetic is an adaptation of the human to its environment.
That's why I was asking the question above, about the fact that some sociopathical attitudes might be also linked with a poor, harsh, non educated environment...I am the daily witness of this, where I live.
You are thinking of evolutionary adaptation, as a part of natural selection. Genetics, while tied to that, is affected by natural selection and not the other way around. Epigenetics does show that some genes can be activated by the environment, but it is limited and poorly understood.
DeleteI wouldn't go as far as saying that. I've been raised in a higher middle class family for most of my life. Sure it was in a third world country but i wasnt a subject of any hardship. Private school with most people in my class, chauffeur, private maids etc (btw my parents never spoiled me either, pretty strict parents but not to the point where i wasn't able to be comfortable with them). Sure I moved to the US at around 10 or 11 years old, but Im pretty sure Ive been this way since I was a kid. Even if it developed later on, I never really lived in a poor or low income environment (maybe average but not low). So, maybe there is a correlation but i wouldnt call it a causation. I feel kike it would be closer to a person's intelligence and way of thinking. In a sense that more down to earth people develop sociopathy.
Delete"Are sociopaths here to remind the dreamer ones the realities of the society, the dark/cold part of it?"
ReplyDeleteHaha, it certainly worked with me!
Carrie
Hi Carrie,
DeleteHave you recovered from the experience? Are you still hurt or bitter? Are you able to trust and love again ?
Sociopaths are really wonderful people, but to
ReplyDeleteunderstand this, you have to reorientate your viewpoint about
death. Is death REALLY the worst thing? If you think it is, you can't
love a sociopath. If death is a part of life, you can certainly love a
sociopath. You can be like the father who's son was blown away on
a street corner who said: "I have no bitter feelings at all."
Sounds esoteric
Delete...not sure I agree about this "death" vision. Looks like for sociopaths, nothing is very important, nothing has a real meaning. Are sociopaths dead inside? If they are already dead, then death doesn't mean nothing to them.
ReplyDeleteI guess that most of the people in the world think that death is one of the worst things...it depends also if they believe in god and afterlife or not.
For me, death is part of the world/life...I don't ask myself many questions about it because IT IS, like birth. It's like asking why a salad is green and not blue...useless.
But I do believe that death is an important thing...it gives a meaning to life.
To me, a major part of people in the world, wants to live without any sociopath, and sociopaths do remind them that human species, world population, is one...living together everyday.
Death is not singularly embraced as a hallmark of sociopathy. There is a propensity to more readily accept its existence, perhaps as part of a lack of fear, but it is also just as well avoided in terms of survival.
DeleteThe only reasons death does not scare me are these:
Delete1. I'm Catholic, so I tend to try to do what my parents have told me is good. That way I stay in God's favor. As long as I keep myself from doing bad things, I end up in heaven.
2. If in the end there is no God, then what's the worry. I die and become nothing, without consciousness why should I care about disappearing if I don't even know it. If I stay conscious, and become something/ someone else without remembering my past life, then it's all good I'm still alive. If I become a ghost, then I'll be a ghost. In the end what's there to be afraid of.
Would be typical of a sociopath, if Jamie wrote that herself in an attempt to get people to buy her book.
ReplyDelete"Jamie" (I assume this is a reference to ME Thomas) did not write it, for the record. Her book provided me (the mother who did write it) with a different perspective than the world would allow for me to hold of my daughter.
DeleteAnonymous0414am, you sound like a very strong and compassionate woman. My heart and admiration goes out to you and to your family, including your daughter. It is so very difficult for people to understand sociopaths and to continue liking or loving them after their proverbial mask is off. People would not think of hating an autistic person. But hating a sociopath is quite all right. Our society encourages it. I truly believe that if there was more awareness of this personality disorder, they could better integrate in society and cause less damage. We find sociopaths despicable because we do not understand their limitations.
DeleteSomebody very close to me fits the INTJ profile to a Tee. It is a tough life. She was married to a narcissistic pervert for 25 years (actually officially diagnosed, not that i fully trust psychiatric diagnosis, but all the signs were there, including his "art's room" - he is an artist - full of pictures on the wall, ALL of them with him featured prominently). The divorce was very tough. I helped and talked to my friend mostly daily for 2 or 3 years. She is a strong woman. She was able to retain her faith in people, which is amazing to me. She is a role model to me.
ReplyDeleteRetaining your faith in humanity is difficult after having been through a relationship with a narcissistic or sociopathic person blindly and blinded. I believe the experience would be completely different if your eyes were opened earlier on. Like this mother in the post and her sociopathic daughter. She is able to retain her love for her child. It is a bit of a sad and very special love, but nonetheless, I bet she has not lost her ability to love others joyfully.
You seem very wise. I'm glad your friend had you to confide in. Suffering the rebounds of a marriage split is a tough blow, especially with any type of cluster b personality type in the mix - on top of that. Unknowingly too, until it surfaced. So many people are in these positions. Your sociopathic friend must see something very special in you Old & wise, and probably cares a great deal for you.
DeleteAnonymous, are you in Western Africa?
ReplyDelete"It also became necessary to terminate contact with unproductive and sadistic sociopathic relatives."
ReplyDeleteThe reader almost certainly has interesting (if painful) stories to share. It brings to mind nature/nurture, and whether living in a particular environment necessarily leads one to adopt the traits of those around them. In the case of the reader, a lamb raised among wolves, yet became a lamb. The lamb then raised a wolf, and while the wolf aches to rend she keeps herself in check. Application of the golden rule in raising the wolf almost certainly helped. Its effectiveness can be determined empirically without appealing to empathy or conscience.
I imagine she's a fascinating, interesting person.
A question...should "normal" people feel happy/honored to be admired by a sociopath and to receive all the sociopath is giving?
ReplyDeleteCould it be their strange way to love, even if they seek manipulation beyond this?
Can sociopaths be very good "friends" for parties, fun, and all pragmatic things?
I am thinking about considering sociopaths I know only for what they can handle...what I can really share with them...
For example, sport, challenges, money earning, resolving problems, practical situations (moving from my house, cleaning, cooking, regular things as having tea together, meeting with friends...), movie watching...
Including that during these activities I should unplug my emotional system, give very few precise information about me, and plug in my "practical" brain.
It could eventually work as long as I don't spend long time with him/her.
They are the best for me. I can't be in long term relationships with empaths romantically, never works, gets so emotionally charged by the end. I need a big huck of socio meat in me or atleast almost a socio.
DeleteThen I met that steak boy. My hubby. Still eating that steak. ;)
Not so emotionally charged. I guess that's what I meant. ;-)
I guess a socio wouldn't appreciate that you know the socio-part of his/her personality if you are a aquaintance. Complicates interaction. Now both of you are creeping and lurking around each other.
DeleteGenius, excellent idea. I'm doing that too.
ReplyDeleteI used to think my “surrogate mom & dad” were sociopaths, but today after a couple months that I was away I checked the comment section….and I can’t believe my eyes, still!!! I think, they are now emotionally committed to this place, it burns my heart to see them here … I feel “responsible”! :)
ReplyDeleteI miss them. “And” I think we are all capable of being as much empathetic/apathetic as we “want to”, in the right/wrong circumstances. Generally, a wrong situation provokes a wrong response. Dishonesty invokes dishonesty, insensitivity calls for more insensitivity, and a blind-folded person who is attacked by an angry anonymous band of impersonifiers/haters/cronies, will either responds equally or…. most likely will die, and her “surrogate mom & dad” will use strange peculiar reasoning to explain away the situation! ;)
That’s all right. I miss them, and I send them my best wishes.
How ya doing? You still have those tasty lemonade & cookies. ;) Been awhile. Hope yr doing well.
DeleteSuperchick, I’m fine. We should write a book about how to survive in hell, and thrive afterwards! Miss you. Take care. Keep in touch if you want to.
Delete:) haha, ur so funny, yes hells survival kit. have missed you and thought of you. Good to connect. Night nights.
Delete"As a child I remember deciding that I might want to try my luck in hell instead of sitting through endless hymn singing in heaven." hahahhahah....ahhhh (wipes tear remembering sacrament). I dunno how she does it every sunday. My Mormon days as a child, I fell in love with the Egyptians. Guess I always had a thing for the bad guys :P
ReplyDeleteDr. G your so freekin cute. You make me smile. Big grins. * :-) *
Delete:)
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of sociopathic children, I got Orphan from Netflix about 4 days ago, and watching it now. I think ME Thomas is psychic (hehe). Jus the night before she posted the other blog (but then deleted it) I was thinking about this site, and for some reason it reminded me from something from Scooby doo which she mentioned in it, and I was also pondering revenge in sociopathy. I know what revenge is like from a psychological standpoint of the borderline mind, but what is it like from the sociopath's perspective? The sociopaths who are on this site, explaining it in full detail would be much appreciated. Revenge in bpd can be intense and brutal. Often there is emotion behind it, and the borderline mind ruminates about the event that caused them to want revenge. I know for me, power often plays in to it as well. I don't like my power taken away from me. I try to avoid situations where I feel like I need to go to extremes though.
ReplyDeleteThere are similarities. You do ruminate and desire to inflict harm (physical or otherwise). That being said, the anger is pretty much internalized and isn't necessarily expressed like you would normally expect. Certain external pretenses at the moment, any sort of facade, may falter ("crack") though not necessarily fail. Most of the time you won't express it physically (eg. slam or hit things). However, you do have the desire to inflict some sort of injury (maybe even kill). After that it is about calculation. The ruminations can be elaborate and well-calculated to be realistically achievable, in inflicting injury without receiving any in return. Whether a plan is executed depends on personal restraint.
DeleteOn rarer occasions, if it is sufficiently strong enough and unexpected, you might not even bother with a plan and immediately begin action. But that is also up to the person, in terms of restraint and the circumstance. What you might call it "having lost it". For me, I have only had it happen once. You immediately pursue them and intend to inflict overwhelming and effective injury. To destroy them and eliminate them as a threat. Any pretenses in terms of a facades are gone.
If you are looking for an analogy, some people have called it a "cold" anger. To be fair, it is more like "not hot" - you won't find certain anger reflexes like fist-clenching or flushed faces. But "calm" wouldn't be 100% accurate. You are certainly fully aware of your surroundings and can think, however you are target-fixated. It is a unique experience which does not have many parallels. Predatory perhaps? ME wrote in her book regarding a moment, which I have found was well-written and accurate as to the sensations and the experience.
Thinking of this at the moment, I do wonder if I will fail to maintain restraint on a future circumstance? Will there be a moment where I don't restrain myself, and either hurt or kill someone? I would be lying if I said I don't wish it happens, though I can't say I seek it out either. Would be an interesting experience, if it happens, as far as novel experiences go. It probably won't happen, in terms of being unlikely given past restraint, but I can't fully rule it out either. Just a thought.
Don't you have any idea which circumstances trigger "having lost it"? It sounds quite passive.
DeleteFrom personal experience that is hard to say, since it only happened once. There have been other instances of anger, but those were restrained. Losing control is rare - too rare to know definitively since it hasn't happened enough. I would hazard a guess, in general based on restrained moments, that it comes from threats. People who act to sabotage or disrupt me, or what I am trying to accomplish, particularly if they do it for petty or otherwise unsubstantial reasons, like spite.
DeleteIt sounds passive because when I recall the instance, it does not make me angry again. A little irritated for a brief moment, but that is all. There isn't enough emotional stimulus now, after the fact, to describe it more and associate what was felt with what exactly caused it. Those people who previously posted regarding there being a lack of "emotional memory" were not understating it, which makes it hard to recall those details that far back.
Btw a lack of emotional memory seems normal to me as an empath. Only flash backs can make you re-feel emotional events of the past, triggered by smells, music, atmospheres or sympathy.
DeleteIt is probably not a bad idea at all to categorize and dismiss those impulses for yourself as halluzinations, as ME does.
One socio I know is very skilled in his profession which provides many short time social contacts, ego-boots and change. Another socio I know has much less "social intelligence" and starts many unnecessary fights at his working place (concerning percieved threads=skilled colleagues) which might impair his career. As I said completely unnecessary because he almost has a pole position already. He acts out his sociopathic personality traits and unintentionally makes others an accessory. I don't like if socio or normo take no trouble.
Dr. Ginger, Forgiving and reaching out for peace is my way of revenge. Apparently, you like to ruminate and make provocative jokes. That’s all right. I assume that you guys probably feel that you need more practice for your next performance, when “the leader” and his crony in that university prey on another innocent student. Indeed, you guys are inspiring “professionals”. One “provokes”, one “impersonates” when needed, and the other one creates “peer pressure climate”, mingling in my personal mis/information, interests, ideas that you had access to them, through that federal university. I had enough experience here. But, why? What is/was the purpose of this show? Have you guys ever heard of integrity, decency, conscious, honesty…
DeleteWhy are you playing this dirty game STILL? At this point is just pathetic. Remember. I have NEVER contacted this blog owner. It was you guys who broke my privacy, shared my information with this blog owner, and created this show & circus. For most part, I was here absolutely confused, trusting and respecting you guys, and trying to self-introspect, while you guys were playing an illegal game. Again, I’m asking, why?? I hope you professors got enough pleasure and experience here that lasts your entire “professional” life, and have enough courage and honor to give me an honest response.
Thank You
Here we go again. Your getting delusional again. Just stop it with all this university talk, seriously, we have no idea who and what your talking about . Leave the doc the fuck alone. You don't come here for peace my friend. You come to criticize, project, and be mean. Just stop already. It's getting old.
DeleteDear anon, Do what you can to keep your “public relation” alive. UC Davis is already informed and well- aware of this situation. So, don’t get so manipulative here!
DeleteIf you try to do a psychological human experiment absolutely without the consent of the person who you are experimenting on, using “privately and illegally provided” information, in a stressful and dangerous climate, and inflict emotional and physical harm to the person, at least have a half of decency and admit it. Instead, of trying to cover up your harmful experiment by funny excuses that would furthermore damages the person.
Unfortunately as of today, 7/9/2014, although out of fear, I extended my hand for peace, forgiving everyone who have inflicted unrepairable damages to me and my family, I see that my action has only empowered their wrongful and abusive behavior, encouraging them to inflict even more UNNECESSARY harm, and ensuring me that this dilemma undoubtedly will continue in the future, putting at risk my and my family’s safety, emotional/physical well-being. If you want my honest/ true feeling: I AM AFRAID OF YOU GUYS. IN FACT, TERRIFIED. People without honesty and conscious are indeed dangerous.
A touch leery, I have given you chance and chance again, its clearly becoming a nuisance. Out of respect, I do worry for you. I’m just a bleeping girl who came on this site around ten months ago to interact a little, laugh a lot, talk serious, and learn about personality disorders.
DeleteYou seem to have a well-mannered side to you, and then you get excessively suspicious and take bits and pieces of our convos to fit into your illusions and project this "university stuff onto is". That’s absurd, and is only hurting you by sabotaging the interactions around you by being mean.
Listen, I’m sorry that somebody might have hurt you previously in your past, but it isn’t us. I’ve told you this time and time again; we all come from different places.
Can you just play nice and leave out the virulent attitude. The peace that you project is sounding like attacks and not sincere.
I’ve seen your courteous side - and that’s what shines best through you. I know it, because Ive seen it. Just leave the university stuff out of it.
We aint from the fuckin university.
:-)
I would be silly to believe a sociopathic blog owner. Say whatever helps you, your friends, and your blog. I am submitting all the information for an investigation. I neither feel safe, nor can afford any further (emotional/physical/ financial) damages. You guys continue your “show”.
DeleteBest Wishes
While I certainly agree with the statements about a "lack of emotional memory" as a general rule of thumb, I would like to add that I find there are instances where the emotion associated with the event was exceptionally strong at the time it occurred and thus can still resonate in me today if I think about it. Now, these had to have been exceptionally powerful events, but still, the capacity for some emotional memory does exist, however small it may be. In these cases that "not hot" anger that has been described or a feeling of extreme pleasure/enjoyment/etc that comes with a new experience (or the ending of a long - in relative terms - spell of boredom) can flicker back to life temporarily. "Not hot" anger really is the perfect term for it from an internal standpoint, but according to my sister, when I'm truly pissed off, this presents itself to the world as "a deadly calm white-hot fire". She calls it my "Kill the World Glare". Apparently it's quite frightening for most people and I can usually judge by facial reactions when the "cracks" are showing and I need to back off some. To lose self-restraint in these situations could end badly, as I think we all know. And if this were to occur, it seriously damage anything else I've set myself on doing.
DeleteAdditionally (and somewhat off topic), I find that faking an emotional reaction to a memory (the sort of reaction a "normal" person would give) can aid in masking the fact that I'm not what people would consider to be "normal". I understand that certain individuals may find this "disgusting behavior", but for me it's become an automatic response so as to better blend in - call it a type of "survival instinct" if you like. The better I blend in (only to the point of convincing others that I, too, 'feel things' in the same way they do), the easier it is to accomplish whatever it is I'm trying to accomplish at the time.
I try not to treat everyone like a chess piece, but I do see most of them that way. There are very few exceptions to this rule and even they are not immune to the occasional loss of restraint on my part when it comes to some form of manipulation. There's been some talk of "self-restraint" in relation to violent thoughts, but it also applies to personal boundaries on who gets played, who doesn't, and when. My boundaries are set based on who I've found to be the most loyal to me over time. And self-interest/self-preservation of course plays into this. My boundaries are also set based on whether I've come to care about the person (for whatever reasons depending on the situation). I've come to associate any feelings of personal attachment to a person with "love" or "care" - though I'm certain most people would disagree with me on that point if they could experience the attachment in the same way I do. I know that my definition of what love feels like differs greatly from the definition the vast majority of the population holds. I don't think it's that sociopaths can't form an attachment to another person, but this link isn't formed (or felt, really) in the same way as it is for most people. And clinginess certainly isn't a factor.
The necessity of having to consciously project an emotional reaction can't be understated. Since most people gauge behavior and responses to that, forgetting to do so leads to detecting an oddity. And when the oddness goes past the stage of eccentricity, people are no longer comfortable around you. Personally I have found giving out the occasional witty response in conversation, which ellicits general laughter, helps prevent it from crossing the oddity line. Because funny and odd are considered a harmless, diffusing blend. Especially if you make an alpha in a social group laugh, since unconsciously the rest of the group who naturally follow or at least attentive to the alpha end up feeling more comfortable as well, even if they did not find it funny (glib humor seems, anecdotally, to be effective on about 60-70% of people, based on who laughs and who doesn't, but it is enough to ripple and give an impression to the rest).
DeleteIt's really hard for me to get mad, insults and attacks usually go through me. I've realized though that most of the time I get pissed is when someone is purposefully hurting someone I care for (usually my younger sister), or someone who has done nothing to deserve being attacked (I might not have a strong sense of justice but somehow I do have a sense of fairness). But those situations usually get me involved in trying to stop them, more than really get me angry and wanting revenge. The only time I can remember losing control was when I was about 14 At that time my sister was about 8 and she had gone to play around the shared backyard (i guess you can call it that) of our neighborhood complex. She came back a bit scared with a scratch on her arm saying that the neighbor she was playing with had thrown a pair of scissors at her and tried to hit her with a stick when he had gotten mad (he was 11 or 12). I remember calmly getting up from the sofa where i was watching tv chuckling (almost laughing), and telling my parents, who were by then phoning his parents that i would be right back. To be honest it wasn't fury, or blind rage, or hot anger, but more like very sharp cold calm steel. I walk to the backyard, where i found him, and walked toward him woth the kindest smile on my face. I grabbed him by the throat, dragged him (by the throat) to a nearby tree, and started pressing his neck against it and squeezing it. I was still smiling, and i began to list the rules and conditions of how it would be from now on when he interacted with my younger sister (pretty much threatened him to be the kindest butler he could imagine). By the time i was done saying what i needed and asking him if he understood his face was purple (somewhere deep inside i knew that i was happy that a situation came up where me doing this was justified). My sister got scared for the kid (used to be the kindest most forgiving and generous person you could find) and started crying and begging me to let him go and to let him off this time so i did (if she hadn't i don't know how far i would have gone). Somehow i felt more like " how dare he do this to someone I've put under my protection? The nerve of this kid" more than "How could he hurt my little sister his going to pay for it and i dont care how".After that i pat his shoulders, told him to be a good kid and take care of himself (genuinely), and to watch out for my sister. Then i just casually went back to watch tv. Back then even though i usually had great self control, i was a lot more impulsive, especially since i had yet to figure out i was a bit of a sociopath.
DeleteBut yah, attacks against me are usually unaffective. Unless its physical. If its physical the first hit Im usually cool with and ask the person whether or not they've gotten rid of their frustratio. And if they can bug off. Second hit I usually smile at how much I'm going to hurt them when they hit me a third time (which they always do after i smile and chuckled). After the third I usually either respond physically or pretend theyve beaten me and plan out something that would affect them mentally or emotionally. At that point its justified and fair.
I am fascinated by this not hot anger you describe. I don't think "normal" people can feel it. I certainly cannot. Can you describe it? Are your senses heightened? What does it feel like physically? Slower heart rate? Any ringing in your ears or any hair raising in your body? It is pleasurable?
DeleteFor me it's more like very calm, serious and focused. I guess slower heart rate can come with it once in a while. It almost like you put all your focus on dealing with the person who got you ticked off. I for one don't take pleasure in hurting people physically, but i do love to make people who have pissed me of feel like fools, ridicule them and to show them that if i wanted to i could cause some real damage. The only pleasure I really get is the thrill of putting someone back in their place and letting them know that I'm superior to them in that current situation. I guess you could say the display of power part is pleasurable.
DeleteI agree - there is a sense of calm and focus that comes with the not hot anger. When my focus shifts to the person who pissed me off, I don't feel "blinded by rage" as is often poetically described in literature. In fact, my mind is pretty clear - granted, I've stopped calculating out actions to further most of my other motives for that period of time, but the part of my brain that calculates my next move doesn't become clouded over as I've heard many normal people discuss it does for them when truly pissed off. It's quite clear and precise - in some instances, I remember laughing rather darkly that someone actually thought they could get away with messing with me (or someone associated with me). Think of not hot anger as feeling (and presenting to the world) as the calm in the eye of a storm. Ominous, foreboding, and as I've been told, quite terrifying to behold.
DeleteI haven't noticed a slowness in heart rate, but it doesn't increase either - it's calm and even. I don't get a ringing in my ears - but isn't that generally a side effect of the "blind rage" other people feel?
When pissed off, I don't tend towards a violent response (I may imagine one, but I don't generally do anything about it in practice - probably because, at 5 feet and 90 pounds, I am physically smaller than basically everyone else and I know I wouldn't be able to take most people physically unless I had a blunt instrument of some sort). Instead, I put people back in their place by making them, as Tii put it so well, look like fools. And yes, this is absolutely pleasurable for me - in much the same way that winning a good debate/argument gives a feeling of superiority and power. All of these are a form of winning and give control over my environment. Control establishes dominance, power, and superiority.
On the topic of justice - or moral compass - I don't know that I don't have one exactly, but if I do, it doesn't necessarily point north...I definitely have a sense of justice (or fairness - I'm not sure where the lines of delineation are between the two words) - probably based on the values of my parents. I take issue with people who harm those I care about - because those people had the gall to hurt someone I care for - but I also take issue with those that harm children (physically, mentally, or emotionally). When I was a child I don't recall thinking about children getting hurt - it never came up in conversation (imagine that), but now that I'm older, and the stories on the news about people hurting kids are being rattled off, I find that I have a problem with it. There just isn't an excuse to harm a kid. I'm not sure exactly why this particular issue strikes a chord with me since I was never abused, but lets just say there are certain Viking punishments that would be awfully poetic justice for some of these people. As for the rest of the news, I recognize the right from the wrong (again, based on the values of my parents) but those stories don't stir up an emotional response. The good news for me in social sciences classes in high school was that the video clips talking about things that horrified my classmates were always shown in the dark. I didn't have to try and fake the same emotions at the same times as they did - true disgust is difficult to fake properly.
On another note, I don't know if anyone else has had this happen - and to this day it amazes me - but my best friend (the only one who seems to not be bothered by any "oddities" I wasn't good at covering up (with a combination of charm, glib remarks, and timed emotions responses) when we met at age six and has been loyal to me ever since - so yes, she merits the term) actually touches on my sociopathy without ever actually attempting to confirm or deny it.
DeleteWhen we met, I hadn't yet figured out that even if I couldn't accurately maintain a sympathetic demeanor for the requisite length of time, my natural sarcasm could be used to portray the idea that I was just trying to diffuse the emotional time-bomb (either as a defense mechanism or to try and distract someone from their problems for a while), and even when I was sarcastic, most six-year-olds don't understand sarcasm. A fact that my first-grade self found highly frustrating - not enough to lose control (I rarely lose control completely, even at that age - and I don't consider showing others for the fools they are to be "loosing it" unless I do more than knock them down several pegs), but frustrating enough to let loose numerous snarky comments that were completed wasted on their targets.
Occasionally, my friend will comment on how she thinks some things I say or do remind her of Sherlock Holmes (Moriarty when I'm annoyed - or hyper from lack of sleep) or other sociopathic characters that pop culture has made lovable to many people, but never actually accuses me of it. One day, I was curious enough to ask her flat out if she thinks I'm a sociopath, but she just laughed like she thought I wasn't being serious in the question. All she said on the topic was that she thought it made the characters seem more human to her. Most people who meet me don't have a clue (as evidenced by their lack of unease around me) - but this girl has known me for a decade and a half. She knew me when I wasn't so good at hiding it and she never cared. For me at age six, I didn't know the technical term - only that I was always different, that I didn't really understand the other children very well, and that most of them bored me to death. But my "eccentricities" never bothered her. She's been calling me her best friend from day two. As a result, I don't usually put as much effort into my facade when it's just her and me because it isn't necessary. Why waste the energy when she'll only think it's odd that I'm acting like a normal person?
I'm also baffled by the fact that my sociopathic traits don't bother her - she is one of the most empathetic people on the planet (another of whom is my mom) but she doesn't have a problem with me. I think she suspects what I am, but doesn't want to say anything in case she's wrong. Either that or she doesn't want to know - but I lean against this since, if me being a sociopath truly scared her, she would have had a problem with me long ago. If the former theory is true, then it would appear she doesn't care what I am. I care about her - so I'm not trying to look a gift horse in the mouth, here - but it's always been surprising to me to have a highly empathetic person decide I'm their best friend when most people shy away as soon as they get a glimpse of the sociopath behind the curtain. I don't let people see enough behind the facade (now that I'm practiced at blending) to be able to tell if I know another person like this or if this situation is rare. I'm curious as to whether anyone else has found people like this in their lives?
I have a friend who I have known since the elementary school (for over 20 years). He does not know of my diagnosis. He laughs at my glib jokes and is still shocked on occasion at the generous gifts I give to him and other people. But beyond that, and the non-disclosure of diagnosis, I don't lie or use him. I'm just used to him, and find there isn't really anything to get from him.
DeleteBeyond a surviving parent, for me there isn't anyone who really knows. I have little doubt there are family who have considered the "oddities", but beyond that not really. Anti-social acts from the past (ie. theft, violence) have been forgotten in favor of a successful present. That works for me.
As Jane mentioned wrongful acts against children also strike a chord in me. I think this is what I mean by a sense of fairness, if anyone in the world deserves to be hurt or havr atrocities comitted agaisnt them, it's clearly not children. When watching the news about all the horrible things occuring, ie. Bombings, (mass) murder, sickness, and suicides, my response at most is usually somewhat similar to "Oh well sucks, the world is going to shit and we all knew that already so..." and I shrug it off. But I remember reading a story that especially got me worked up. That of a father who raped his 11 or so month old baby, killed her and raped her again. It got me so pissed that all I could imagine for a while is how much I would hurt him if I got a hold of him, and what sorts of torture (physical mental or emotional) I would have put him through if it had been any kid that I cared for. I've also gotten annoyed by some rape stories, not all of them but usually the ones about young women, or those about shy introverted women.
DeleteThe "pretty" sociopath is in "demand" nowadays. She is very
ReplyDelete"trendy" because EVERYBODY would like to believe they could
"tame" her. The sexy female sociopath, (And the male one too
judging by the reaction to the Jermery Meeks photo) captures the
carnal imagination (See the bedroom scene from the film "Cape
Fear" 1962.)
Casey Anthony is progressing on her "rehabilitation program."
She is doing clerical work for a private investigator she lives with.
She is fit, well dressed, attends frequent parties, and has hope
for the future. Sooner or later some fetching young man will turn
her head and like Karla Homka (Who married someone on her
legal team, or Patty Hearst who married her body guard) Casey
will marry someone in her improved social set. Seems that that
"rash" decision that Casey made in the spring of 2008, has
benifited her life in everyway.
You're making a lot of assumptions about Casey Anthony. I'm thinking she probably was not a sociopath. Now Jodi Arias on the other hand....I'm thinking sociopath.
Delete@3:35
DeleteYou're making a lot of assumptions about Jodi Arias. I'm thinking she probably
was not a sociopath. Now you on the
other hand....I'm thinking dipshit.
The "pick up the money" scene from 9 1/2 Weeks captures the
Deletecarnal imagination. The bedroom scene from the film Cape Fear (1962) doesn't have anything to do with imagination. It's about using violence to get to someone.
I don't think Jodi Arias was a sociopath. The whole thing sounds way to sloppy for it to have been sociopathy in my opinion. As for Casey Anthony, if she is really guilty, it sounds too stupid to not call the authorities and make up a story for someone who is a sociopath. I feel like a sociopath wouldn't have done it so clumsily
DeleteTii,
DeleteIt's interesting because at the time of the Arias crime I was active in some of the borderline communities on the internet, and the people in the bpd communities were all saying she has bpd. I later found this site, and noticed many commenters were saying she is a sociopath. The experts analyzing the case at the time came up with anything from ASPD to BPD to NPD. At the time I thought about getting permission from her down the line to maybe do some research, have her take some tests, interview her, etc. to kind of get my own opinion. It's my personal opinion that I don't see any bpd traits. People with bpd are way too intense, and have way too many emotions. That girl was just way too calm and cool through the whole thing. She was practically asleep during her whole trial. She had honed her skills of deception, and lied with complete ease during some of her tv interviews. The details she provided of the crime were incredible. She gave three different accounts, and they all very very detailed. I thought that part was pretty interesting. Usually (not always though) people with bpd commit their crimes during a borderline episode. A borderline episode would have worn off by the time she got to the California Stateline waaaay before hitting Arizona.
Well maybe youre correct. I haven't really followed the case thoroughly, do I cant pretend to know more than you do. All I know is that it never really sounded like sociopathy to me, especially if it was premeditated like the made it seem. But I guess bpd wouldn't make more sense either.
DeleteWhat exactly is your background in psychology?
ReplyDeleteNone.
DeleteI have a real job.
Delivering pizza?
DeleteWhatever distracts you from your own situation.
DeleteYeah....about that background in psychology stuff. I come here and read. Don't comment obsessively because I am actually living life. Some of you seem ok, but Bob, you are so fucking pretentious it makes me slit my throat. I don't know who you think you are, but you don't appear to be either a sociopath OR a shrink. Please go get a life. You try way too hard and frankly, im embarrassed for you.
ReplyDeleteCan we drop the BS? It's always the same people ranting about the same petty thing for the same retarded kicks. Over and over, like a broken record. And unlike the guy you keep ranting about, this really has truly fallen to mindnumbingly pathetic levels of whining. This long stopped having anything to do with Bob, or sociopaths, or narcissism, or whatever protest that strikes your jollies. The same shit you guys are giving from the vegitopath spam. Yeah it's the same one, we know. Stop waving your dick around like an Elvis impersonator, you unstable sack of shit.
ReplyDeleteWth are you on about?
DeleteYou're making no sense.
@ anon 11:00, So accurately you summed it up. English is not my first or even 2nd language, I needed every word you said couple months ago. But with this crew never is too late. I bet in couple years they STILL will be here as cute as always, making stupid SCOOBY DOO jokes “ranting about the same petty thing for the same retarded kicks. Over and over, like a broken record”. Pathetic, pitiful and low. And shame on me for reaching out for peace, empowering the abusers!
DeleteTo A touch leery/ never dies ,
DeleteWhat is it to you if where still here in a couple of years. Most people just carry phones around and participate on social networks while committing to other responsibilities throughout the day. Let people come with what they want and how they want -- having a sense of humour is fine character in my opinion , and ya its cute as hell.
Has it ever occurred to you that you seem to be guilty of what you accuse people of doing on this blog? Your acting like a spam queen with your attacks.
“What is it to you if where still here in a couple of years.” God forbid, I’ve been here since January. And I already feel sorry for all the damages that “the crew” here have caused me and my family.
DeleteAnd, No. I don’t know how to accuse people (it requires dishonesty and lack of conscious), I just expose them. Sadly, I’m too honest.
Ummm if I may... I'm new around here, so... Touchy, what's up with the conspiracy against you and your family theories? It doesn't seem to me like anyone has made the slightest move against you, or even mentioned you in any comment unless you have instigated a response. If you're trying to screw with us you're doing a hell of a job... if you're serious I don't know what the hell you're talking about...
Delete-A curious reader
yeah pretty much sums up my feelings too
ReplyDeleteAgainst all "science" and "rationality," I subscribe to
ReplyDelete"personality type." You see, if you ask a "scientific expert" to "type"
someone you will get 10 different answers from 10 different
"experts." The "cluster B" disorders are that confusing. Why should
Dr.'s who studied the same acidemic subjects come up with
differing interpetations of pathology? They draw different
conclusions from the same information. They have been
indoctrinated.
For example, there was a forensic pathologist named Michael
Stone. Very learned man. He wrote many books on the subject.
He came up with a way to measure depravity that he called
"The Scale Of Evil." I heard him on the radio. He commented
on Casey Anthony's behaviour an how she got rid of her daughter
so she could be with a man. That's not an uncommon motivation
for a sociopath to kill, has we have seen time and again. He
believes that she is a sociopath, and assigned her a "number."
But other "experts," namely, the state psychologists who examined
her saw NO SIGNS OF PATHOLOGY AT ALL. Dr. Keith Ablow buys the
11th hour story of abuse. He wants to do a series of pay-for-view
interviews with Casey that will rake in ten million dollars.
Doesn't this indicate that psychology is a crock? If these
"knowledgeable" people draw such extremely condradictory
conclusions why should I believe in Psychology? Because it is the
only game in town? Because it is "scientific." It IS NOT the only
game in town. We DO need psycotropic drugs to control demetia,
and keep madmen from going off, but to tell personality, we only
need 3 books:
"Chaldean Numerology For Beginners," by Heather Lagan.
"The New Chinese Astrology," by Suzanne White.
"Personality Types" by Don Richard Riso.
These 3 "unscientific" books describe personality to a tee.
I asked the woman who wrote the first book to analyze M.E.
she described her to a tee. She eventually removed her description
from her blog site, because M.E. warned her off. But if you had
seen it while it was posted, you'd never doubt Chaldean Numerolgy
again.
Post M.E.'s analysis somewhere! That way we can help her!
DeleteHere´s a fresh topic: should budding green psychopaths really "become who they are" or stay in "the closet"? Gay folks sure should walk out of the closet and be what they are. But psychopaths? Even if they´re passive ones, doesn´t this just end in tragedy or is it important that they develop into character? Scorpio/Virgo should "become", but these fellas have brakes mounted, so to speak..
ReplyDeleteIf you mean be open as a sociopath, the answer would probably be no. The reaction would be universally negative, if believed. And despite the person - how prosocial they are - some of it is still justified. While some can rightfully claimed to have never killed, or not be violent, I doubt there is a sociopath who can claim to have never manipulated or used someone, or some other act that would be justifiably negative.
DeleteHello,
ReplyDeleteI would like some few advices on my situation.
My husband has some strange reactions since I know him (6 years).
Yesterday I had to leave the house one week for my work, (I'm leaving quite often, but not so often this year).
The day before, he brings something I was asking since few days, to repair something in the house.
Then he started to repair it, with my help, and he was not doing it very good. Then he asked me to give him something, but he didn't explain really what he wanted to do with it exactly...so I gave him what I thought he wanted, and then he started to repeat like agressive "are-you joking?"...
I didn't understood why he was saying this, he didn't explain what he wanted, why didn't he just said, "no it's not this, give me something more like this or that". But no.
I stopped and say to him, "don't speak me like this, are you crazy, what's going on?"....I started to angry him.
Then he started provocations "there is no food, where is the diner??" (there is no specific role for cooking...we do it when we want, together or not), he started to make the carpet dirty with his feet...making me much more angry...
Then i left in the bedroom and close the door.
He left, slept later on the sofa and came outside early morning.
I was preparing my things to go, and I call him..."you are not coming to come back before I leave?"...answer "no why, if you go, go...bye bye!".
I said then, "ahhhh ok and I cut".
He came back to the house 5 minutes later, I said what's going on since yesterday. He says, nothing I'm tired, if you go, go what can I do, you are free! I was started to say that if it is going like this, there is something wrong, and he continued saying "so you will go and you'll never come back"...I am actually coming back in one week! This is ridiculous!
He was laying on the floor, pretending to sleep while listening me...I saw a child doing a kind of caprice...
We have a business together, he said to me that he will not care when I'll be away (it's actually his own business much more than mine)...but there was very urgent answers to do...
Clearly he wants to make me pay because I'm leaving (for the work...I'm not having fun). The heart is totally disconnected, there is only him, him and him.
He is seeing a psychiatrist (who is specialised with sociopath and was working with prisonners, but he didn't know this when he choose him), because i've asked him to do something to manage his impulsive/aggressive crises (never violent against me, I mean physical).
Does this story speaks to you? What should I do?
In one hand i'm worry for the future, and i'm starting to think to take more distance. In the other hand I can't say that he is not doing efforts, realizing who he is, that he can loose me, and seeing a psychiatrist and saying that it makes him feel good.
He is also quite involved with religion, he says that it's helping him.
Few years ago he said to me "I'm feeling much alone (but I was there?!), I can not be who I am...".
Thanks for your advices/ideas
I think this psychiatrist that your husband is seeing right now, might be giving him dangerous drugs, or even dangerous advice.
DeleteI think that if it's possible, your being in touch with his psychiatrist on a confidential basis would be a good idea. You are a victim of partner violence. For this reason, you are in danger and it is far more likely that this man will hurt you further than you will be able to help him.
DeleteIt is lucky that this psychiatrist understands the criminal mind because he will understand that leaving is when a victim of violence is in the most danger. If the psychiatrist knows you are leaving he can help address that issue when he talks to your husband.
I also advise that you call a domestic violence hotline or google domestic violence and the name of the county where you live. This will give you some phone numbers to call to help you. Leaving an abuser is scary and dangerous but if you have the right help, you can do it and rebuild a much better life for yourself.
I am talking from experience. I am a survivor of rape, battering, severe emotional abuse, had over 30,000 stolen from me and suffered post traumatic stress disorder.
Today my four children and I are safe and thriving. My oldest is the first in her high school class and will be a high school senior- she wants to be a doctor. Had I raised her in a home with a violent stepfather she would have a much different future.
Escaping abuse was necessary to have a good future. It was the best choice I ever made. I know you can do it too. Be brave and get support through local services and your husband's psychiatrist. I wish you luck.
Be strong. The best of your life is still to come.
I know you say you are not a victim of PHYSICAL violence but you are a victim of emotional violence/abuse from what you describe. Emotional abuse has been said to leave worse scars so it should not be considered "ok" as long as he doesn't hit you. I have learned the hard way that emotional abuse escalates to physical abuse over time.
DeleteReally? Getting domestic violence people involved?
DeleteDon't you think you're overreacting here, Mach?
The guy is a passive aggressive jerk.
Emotional abuse is not ok, but he has made no threats, no attempts to control her. Sought help when she suggested she is leaving.
He is seeing a shrink and even she said that she can see changes.
What more do you want from the guy? To become Prince Charming?
Not every emotional abuser escalates to violence, not by a long shot.
I have known many men like him. From my father to my last ex.
I have a feeling that she doesn't want to leave, she just wants him not to be a passive aggressive jerk anymore.
It's her choice and you're making it sound like leaving is the only one she should pursue.
Anon, you can leave him. Or you can stay by him, be honest, be patient.
Only you should decide that.
If you choose to stay, start telling him when his behaviour affects you and how. And stop being so passive aggressive yourself.
Learn about manipulation tactics that men like him use.
Make your wants, needs and feelings known. They are just as important as his. And he might not understand what's going on. He can't read your mind.
Reward the positives.
But don't let him get away with negatives just because you know he's going to get all passive aggressive, try to manipulate, ignore you, brush you off and/or pout if you tell him he did something wrong.
They do quite often feel alone. Especially if they feel they can't really share with you.
But sometimes when you start being really honest with them, they start opening up too.
I thought that he was diagnosed as a sociopath because that's who he was referred to. I saw the demanding that food be cooked as a bad sign. That's not how adults who respect each other act. That's controlling. As for domestic violence "people"- what will happen is that everything is confidential and a risk assessment is done by a professional counselor. Very often, unstable behavior on the part of the "victim" is picked up. There's no legal intervention unless genuine danger is located.
DeleteThe point of encouraging this woman to seek an outside pair of eyes is to get someone trained to spot dysfunction give an informed opinion. That is the first step towards a future path of making a decision whether the relationship is worth salvaging. It sounds like this has been a troubled relationship for a couple of years so this is more than a "rough patch".
Sometimes love relationships contain elements of abusive behavior. Noone is perfect. We all lose it sometimes. The key is- there are some red flags that need to be explored if this woman is distressed enough to be seeking advice on sociopath world.
Yeah, all the examples she gave are classic passive aggressive behaviour that I have seen countless times.
DeleteBehaviour that it sounds like she is making worse with her own passive aggressive/ outright aggressive behaviour.
Sounds to me like they have a communication failure more than a problem with him. I never said it was a rough patch. It's a problem that builds up over time.
Eg. She could have asked him which tool and why he wants it. Instead, she guessed. But gets upset when he assumes she understands.
*She* was the one screaming at him that he is crazy.
His getting frustrated and bitching about dinner is such a bad sign? Oh please, who hasn't gotten frustrated and barked at their spouse?
Just a couple of examples that she herself gave.
She said herself he was not violent. He sought help when she said his temper was a concern. He is showing effort to be better.
Getting domestic violence services involved now is most likely going to inflame the situation.
And Mach, trust me when I tell you that domestic violence people do not just act when they have found clear cut evidence of abuse.
A woman calls and claims abuse, they don't really question her. They take her word for it.
I have seen first hand how women claim they are abused and get all the help in the world from domestic violence lawyers, shelters, etc.
Meanwhile, there was mutual abuse or they were actually the abusers and seeking this help so they would get a much better outcome with the courts.
I am not saying she is in the wrong at all. And I am not excusing his behaviour.
But I think you are letting your experience dictate what she should do, even though the circumstances seem drastically different.
Well we may be talking about different things when we talk about domestic violence "people". The people who staff hotlines are completely unrelated to anyone who could throw legal weight around. Believe it or not, one of the biggest dynamics that is watched for is borderline type behavior from the caller. There's training to spot that. There is a vigilance to protect against "crying wolf" and to dial back the drama of an unwell victim. That happens a lot and is an important service because it often stabilizes a woman who is a primary caregiver of children who is in danger of going off the deep end. (Think of Andrea Yates, who drowned her kids.) The perpetrator in question is only brought to the attention of authorities if actual danger is assessed, and even then sometimes isn't because a restraining order often won't help in those cases.
DeleteMy recommendation was phrased the way it was because it sounds like there's potential for things to get ugly if tension keeps building and I wanted to provide motivation for this woman to get more social support involved to manage her distress. In many cases, women often are far more violent than men in these cases, which is the great irony here. I'm not interested in assigning blame, only interested in seeing a person in a toxic situation get resolution to building tension. While she said he hasn't been violent to her
she did mention impulsive/aggressive crises.
A huge concern is the high conflict couple- neither are particularly violent on their own, but it's a bad relationship that is truly miserable that both parties remain in because of a sort of inertia. There were enough red flags for me to say that getting another pair of eyes involved in diagnosing the situation is a good idea.
People who don't work with social services might think calling "domestic violence people" is the same as calling social services on someone and crying "child abuse". It's not. Child abuse and domestic abuse are treated very differently because there is a minor involved in one case and two "consenting" adults in the second. Domestic violence hotlines end up serving as free mental health counseling, which is something that generally de-escalates conflict.
I agree that the anon's case is not the same as mine. That's not why I recommended she get help. I wanted to validate her and let her know that she wasn't being blown off- while encouraging her to get help for what seemed to be a miserable situation. Only people closer to the actual situation could make determinations about what would be the next logical step.
Hello again (I'm the anonymous who asked for advices).
DeleteThanks really for your reactions.
I'm not in big trouble, because I put a red line since the begining.
This red line exists for everyone, man or women, lover or not.
It came from my education, keep my freedom like a trophy, not accept any violence/manipulation or any bad words.
I respect people, they have to respect me...that's all.
You can not trust someone who doesn't respect you. Whatever the reason is, nobody has to carry the husband (or wife) impulsive/psychological problems.
There is a psychiatrist, he is for that. I'm not a mother, I'm not a nurse.
Why I didn't ask more further which tool he wanted, because he started to speak aggressively to me, and I don't accept it (does other people accept it and find it normal? maybe!).
Whatever he was saying, it would have been same. The level of sound and the voice he used, was not ok for me.
The other thing is my reaction to his impulsive-non respect moves. I was raised by a mother who has a strong psychiatric disease, not her fault and she can never be healed.
I had to manage it and run away when it was time to. In a sens I've saved myself.
It is now very difficult for me to carry other peoples deep signs of depression/psychological problems. That's why I've asked quite quiclky to my husband to seek help to manage himself. It was this OR the end for our relation.
I would always save myself first, whatever.
The problem is not to be in danger etc...but we are married and I would like our relation to work (it is normal I think).
You are right when you say that there is a communication problem.
Sometimes, he can't control himself...and he becomes impulsive. I hate impulsive people, so I enter the game directly...and everyone is doing provocation!
But inside of me I can not let it flow. If I accept one time, the door will be open to other impulsive things, and to which level?
But it is true that he can not change himself quiclky...and that I'm jumping on him anytime impulsivity shows out.
(The cooking thing was said clearly, because just before I accused him of puting dust on the clean carpets etc..."you say this, so I say that" blablabla).
I am an hypersensitive person, so I'm also very quickly stressed with impulsive, loud, aggresive reactions. Especially when it looks like it came from nowhere (no reason. I'm not responsible if he don't explain what he wants!).
(Following below)
(Following)
DeleteBut I guess behind this there was my departure. And him feeling bad or depressed about my departures is a big problem...first it make me feel claustrophobic, second because I'm not leaving for fun...but for work, to earn money.
And he can't put words on this, like just say "I have no problem with you travelling, but the problem is to be left alone, the problem is me, not you".
We spoke on the phone since, he says I don't angry you, I angry me. But still he was trying to let me down...like thinking "it's not you leaving me, but me leaving you first", "you hurt me so I will hurt you"...but I'm the wrong target...if he is suffering from abandon...it has something to do with him, his childhood, his mother...I don't know...
At this time, he his still shooting on everything/everyone around in fact. If anybody approach, I'll shoot!!! :)
It will be better in few days...
But there is still this problem between us, that will come again...even if it looks to come less than before.
I was thiking about to leave more regularly, (I have also another house abroad), first to show him that I want to live a quiet life, I need it as an Hypersensitive person, second so he gets used to the fact that I'm leaving regularly, and that I have another place to live if he can't control him.
I don't know if it is a good idea.
Hopefully, in few days the pressure will go down, and we will speak quietly about what real happend...the real underthing, I know then he'll be able to face it.
It looks sometimes like he has a leg cut, and that so I must carry him on my back...instead of buying a prothesis.
But I'm not wonderwoman!!
I've justed conducted an important meeting front of 20 important people, very stressing, I didn't need extra stress at this moment.
He couldn't control himself, and he was not considering at all what was my own things to carry at that time.
What do you think?
I think you guys would benefit from having someone who knows you both and has psychiatric training observe your situation and share their conclusions. To get advice from an internet forum where both sides of the story aren't heard will lead to blind spots for anyone who wants to help you.
Deletei doubt his problem has anything to do with being a sociopath. The fact that he got moddy for such a little thing, the fact that he was laying on the floor acting lile a child with a tantrum, the fact that he is worried about his situation, and the fact that he is affected negatively enough by your leaving to be depressed does not seem like a characteristic of a sociopath. I doubt I would ever react that way to any of those situations. He probably had a lot on his mind, couldn't work it out by himself and snapped. If anything (I'm no expert but) it sounds to me like he might have Borderline Personality Disorder and has been trying to manage it and holding everything in for too long. From what have learned they tend to snap real badly when they can no longer take it.
Deleteagreed with the bpd
DeleteRiiiggghtt.
DeleteSo far you people have labelled the poor bastard as an abuser, who will most likely commence physical abuse any minute, and as having a serious personality disorder.
Essentially because he's a man and she is bitching about him. Have you people even read what she has been saying?
It sounds to me like she is unstable, volatile, prone to passive aggression, blames him for all the problems, rationalises and refuses to even consider responsibility for her own actions, provokes his rages, clearly tries to control and manipulate him with all this talk of leaving... And you guys are labelling him as having the personality disorder?
Yes, he sounds like a passive aggressive jerk. But from what she said earlier, it sounds mire and more like his reactions were basically him shutting down or barking back.
I think these people do need counselling. Badly.
But if anything, I'd be advising *him* to seek help from domestic violence services.
In all honesty, Bite me, I've wondered if this is even a real story.
Delete@ Bite Me-
Deletethe beauty of referring someone to domestic abuse services is that they are well aware that in a not insignificant minority of cases, the one who calls is actually the one who is more likely to cause harm.
Referring a troubled individual away from SW (where people are just as likely to f*** with her as help her) to people trained to make the sort of evaluations we are not qualified to make is hardly hysterical. I didn't tell her to leave him but I did mirror her level of intensity to make it clear I took her seriously.
Curious as to why it feels so important to you to minimize the situation rather than see it brought to a head (as opposed to continuing to fester). I make my recommendations because I did not ask for help soon enough. It's not like waiting around for things to escalate will do anyone any good.
Does it really matter?
DeleteIt sounds like the relationship dynamic of a Beeper and a relatively average sounding passive aggressive guy.
And yet...look at how people are all too keen to attack him, even though in her own words, she sounds much worse.
It's rather telling.
I am not minimising the situation, Mach. It did not sound like there was any crisis at all to me. She sounded like someone who just wanted to bitch about her husband.
DeleteSomething that needs to be looked into, sure, but your reply, in matching her intensity, screamed "Run!! Oh dear God, this is domestic violence and it's only a matter of time before he starts raping and beating you!! Get help and run!!"
I was telling her that there are alternatives. Like actually taking steps to improve their communication first.
I don't know about the hotline that you are talking about and I can't tell you too much without giving away very sensitive information. But both here and in the US, I have seen first hand what happens when an unstable, but manipulative woman calls domestic violence services.
They don't question her. They direct her to shelters, lawyers, whatever necessary.
In one of those cases, the fact that she was the one doing the abusing was discovered after a long time.
In the second case, the guy's name has been dragged through the mud (word spread quickly about domestic violence lawyers and a shelter being involved), he lost everything and still can't see his kids.
Both those men are self centered, passive aggressive jerks. But they were the ones mostly being abused by a "hypersensitive" wife eerily similar to this anon.
Just to clarify, the 2:34 reply was to Dr Ginger.
DeleteBite me and Dr.Ginger, are you speaking about my story?
DeleteIf so, yes it's a real story...it happend few days before. Does it look like a strange story?? or are you surprised that I ask some advices here?
For Bite me, how can I know, as a women, when a man (or a woman!) can cross the line of physical violence?
About the "she is bitching about him", thank you very much, but asking someone to pay respect to his wife, is not bitching to me. Why my husband would have the right to speak me this way?? He would not like if I was speaking to him in the same way!!
For me your analysis is wrong, first because I only spoke about what happend this time, but you don't know anything about what happend before, in which conditions etc...I'm very far from blaming him for all the problems, it would be more the opposite.
He was tired or nervous, I don't know what was the problem. He just came back home from outside, and it happened. It's just a small fight, but that's the repetition of this kind of events which is the real problem.
Where did I provoke his rage?? He is speaking to me like if I was the more stupid people on earth.
Imagine you are in the kitchen, someone tells you "giveee", screaming loud! You will say..."give? give what?"...you would ask him to give details.
I've asked some details, and said to him that he doesn't have to speak me like that because it is his fault if he his not communicating properly!!
I'm not an object, or an animal, thank you!
I spoke about leaving, because of the repetition of these situations, which are heavy to carry for me. Can I say that it is heavy or not? Can I say what I have to say??
When I read what you say, I feel like you are speaking about other people, not us...maybe linked with your own experience, I don't know.
Many time my husband told me that the problem was him, not me, and that he knew it very well.
I didn't force him to say this!!
It's more and more clear to me that there is a fear of abandon behind this...his aggressive way to answer was a way to show his dissatisfaction, because in 2014 if you have a fear of abandon, you can't ask your wife to stay with you 24 hours a week.
He was stuck between the pain he had inside him and the fact that he couldn't speak about it in an open way (as a man he should not be weak, we had many argues in the past, he doesn't want to argue again because he knows it is difficult to carry for me too...etc). But if you keep to much inside, it shows by another way...aggressive speak for example, about a totally insignificant subject!! He wanted to hurt me by this way, because he felt hurt that I've moved inside him something linked with abandon, and me I didn't even knew I was moving this feeling, I was just going to work, like many people!
Everybody here is speaking through its own experience. I understand Machiavel who is worry about my situation, but it is not much violent in fact. And I'm strong enough to stop him if necessary, or to leave. I'm not dependant.
DeleteBut I don't agree at all when Bite me says I'm a bitch manipulating him...!
I have values in life, and one of the most important is respect about the way you consider and speak to people...wife, neighbor etc...same!
I love my husband, it's not coming to my mind that I could scream on him because he didn't understand what I said (and even more what I didn't say!!).
Anybody can be nervous, not in a good mood etc...but first other people are not a punching ball, and the minimum would be to say simply "sorry, I didn't mean to scream on you". But what happened is that the provocation started more and more (that's why he said "diner is not ready???"...he is never saying this normally).
He looked to me like little hysterical!
Dr.Ginger and Tii, I've just looked about Borderline personality on wikipedia...it looks quite close...impulsive, fear of abandon...
DeleteAnon, yes I was mostly talking to Mach and yes, about my experiences and why I think your situation seems similar.
DeleteI was talking to you when I told you to try communicating with him better. To tell him how you feel, but not yell at him or be passive aggressive towards him. That only creates bigger problems.
To reward him when he does things right...etc.
But I do think from what you said that the problem very much lies with both of you.
I really think you two need to see a counsellor together. Someone who will help you communicate better.
And so you know " to bitch" is slang for complaining. I was not calling you a bitch.
But I do think you provoke him. Such as when you said you yelled that he is crazy or acting in passive aggressive manner. You even said that you can't stand his impulsive behaviour and jump on him every time, making the situation much worse.
Being "hypersensitive" is not an excuse to lash out at him either.
He clearly values you enough to take responsibility, to try to change.
I think you two would be far better off being patient and learning how better to talk to each other, to express your feelings and make yourself understood without all the hostility and misery.
Otherwise, even if you do split up, it's very likely that you will repeat the story with other men too.
Thanks bite me. If I react strongly, it is because I don't understand why someone can speak like this, and that if I don't say no to this, He would think that he can speak badly to me anytime he wants...that it is something normal! To me it's not.
DeleteIt is true also that we are very "reactive" people...we are very quiet and sensitive most of the time, but if there is an aggression or something we strongly don't like, we can react very strongly.
It is true also that impulsive and fight feels aggressive to me. I don't know if you know that hypersensitive people feels much more strongly and deeply situations/other people reactions and feelings...
That's where I can also do something, try to manage better this hypersensitivity...
And for the communication, I can see with him if he wants me to come to speak with his psychiatrist, it's not a problem for me, I've done a four year therapy few years ago.
Current thinking on domestic violence is that it is very much a relationship problem and that both parties feed into a destructive cycle. There are enough red flags to merit getting this situation checked out.
DeleteI am glad that you do not feel yourself to be in danger, anon, but I do ask you to consider the cost of giving more than the six years of your life to a bad relationship. Life is precious and if you have hit a standstill where communication stops happening, it is time to either break up or get professional help.
I wish you the best of luck and happiness.
Thank you Machiavel,
DeleteI think it is still early now to think about giving up. Especially as my husband is going to see a psychiatrist, so he is moving on, trying to find solutions. But he will not find a solution for everything in few months...
Can we say that it is a bad relationship, I don't know...I guess there is much more good times than bad times, but bad times are painfull of course, for both of us.
Thanks for your good wishes, I wish you the best too!
Anon,
DeleteI understand just what you mean. I have dealt with many men like your husband throughout my life. From my father to my last ex.
I think it is a huge step that he shows enough care to put real effort into being a better man.
It's the ones that lie to themselves, blame everything on others and do nothing, who are the going to ruin anything they touch.
For example, my father was almost unbearable to be around, but once he almost lost me too, he grit his teeth and resolved to be better. I found that being really honest, but calm and rational, allowed us to start communicating much better and work on it. Now he is much better. Much less volatile, far more supportive and caring towards me.
And I think it's wonderful that you are willing to seek help with him. We all have patterns of behaviour, that while we might not even know about them, are very destructive. It's a big step towards breaking those patterns.
It takes time, love, strength, a lot of patience and effort from both parties.
But then again, nothing good ever came easily.
I wish you both the very best.
Nel maschio del padre, e il figlio e lo spirito santo.
ReplyDeleteAwwwwmen.
Man I totally tried google translate, and it didn't work.
DeleteIn the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Amen
DeleteIt's italian.
Delete
ReplyDeleteThanks to Dr Brave for bringing back my wife,and brought great joy to my family?
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Casey Anthony and Jodi Arias. They have been likened, but they
ReplyDeleteare two very different women.
Casey Anthony was born on 3/19/1986. She is a Fire Tiger.
Jodi Arias was born on 7/9/80. She is a Metal Monkey.
Both signs are simular in that they are highly sexualized
extraverts. They lie very efficently, both verbally and in beds, but
there are notible differences between the two dolls.
Casey is very worldly. There's not much intuative about her. She is
interested in tangable things. She looks at things in a material way.
Casey is a stimulation seeker. She wants pleasure and parties.
Jodi is much more metaphysical. She experimented with many
religions before settling on Mormonism to get Travis.
Casey is much more impulsive and pounces before she thinks.
She is a gambler who sucessfully gambled she could get away with
murder. Jodi is much more disclipined, restrained, and intelligent.
She planned Travis's murder in a very drawn out way. Cleverness
is a Monkey trait. Impulsitivity is a Tiger trait. That's why Casey
behaved in such an irresponsible and reckless manner.
It's good that Casey is surrounded by a circle self interested
minders. They see Casey as a potential cash cow if they play
their cards right, and keep her out of trouble. They want to recoup
their pro bono investment in Casey. If they can hold on long
enough it just might work. Then she becomes someone elses
problem.
Jodi is a real charmer. IF you only concentrate on her looks.
She can pervaricate with the best of them. She probably would be
the teacher who has an affair with her students. The defense
witnesses, Dr. Samulas and Alice LaVoliette wanted to make a
"Jodi Arias sandwich." Jodi is crafty and keen. And because her
element is Metal, knew how to work a knife very well. She was born
on July 9. The same day as O.J.
Numerologically, there are clues as well. The Karmonic numbers
of 13 and 19 are all over Casey Marie Anthony, as is the carnal
seeking number 5. Casey's first and middle names each add to 13.
Casey was born on the 19th of the mounth, and many letters
making up her name have 1 and 5 values. This indicates naracisitic
pleasure seeking. Her total name value of 54 indicates carnality
"5" dominating domesticity (4). Also, 3+1+9+1+9+8+6= 37=1.
Jodi's first name also adds to 13, and Jodi Ann Arias adds to 23=5.
This is suppose to be a joke, right? You can't serious believe this.
DeleteFuck psychoanalyzing you but bitch you clearly have serious issues. Nobody in their right mind is so fucking overbearing in crafting a child. You went to such lengths to mold your daughter according to your dishonest, whacked out conception of yourself. Fucking crazy bitch how about turning the spotlight on yourself. You think your daughter wasn't keen to your manipulations? If your psychological profile of your daughter was right you have done nothing but exacerbate the problem. You ridiculous bitch.
ReplyDelete