From Out of Character: Surprising Truths About the Liar, Cheat, Sinner (and Saint) Lurking in All of Us, by researchers David DeSteno and Piercarlo Valdesolo, via BrainPickings:
The derivation of the word ‘character’ comes from an ancient Greek term referring to the indelible marks stamped on coins. Once character was pressed into your mind or soul, people assumed it was fixed. But what modern science repeatedly shows is that this just isn’t the case. As we discuss in our book, everyone’s moral behavior is much more variable than any of us would have initially predicted.”
***
The analogy of color is an interesting way to think about [character]. Most of us think that colors are very discrete things — something’s red, it’s got redness; something’s blue, it’s got blueness. But we are creating these categories. They’re not natural kinds, they’re not given in ways that represent fundamentally distinct things. Ultimately, what determines what colors we see are the frequencies of light waves entering our eyes, so it’s along a continuum. It’s kind of the same with character. Things blend. We assume that if someone is good, that we’ve characterized them as good, that’s a discrete category, they can’t be bad. And when they are, our categories shatter. That’s because we have this illusory, arbitrary idea of what vice and virtue mean”
The derivation of the word ‘character’ comes from an ancient Greek term referring to the indelible marks stamped on coins. Once character was pressed into your mind or soul, people assumed it was fixed. But what modern science repeatedly shows is that this just isn’t the case. As we discuss in our book, everyone’s moral behavior is much more variable than any of us would have initially predicted.”
***
The analogy of color is an interesting way to think about [character]. Most of us think that colors are very discrete things — something’s red, it’s got redness; something’s blue, it’s got blueness. But we are creating these categories. They’re not natural kinds, they’re not given in ways that represent fundamentally distinct things. Ultimately, what determines what colors we see are the frequencies of light waves entering our eyes, so it’s along a continuum. It’s kind of the same with character. Things blend. We assume that if someone is good, that we’ve characterized them as good, that’s a discrete category, they can’t be bad. And when they are, our categories shatter. That’s because we have this illusory, arbitrary idea of what vice and virtue mean”
But mostly characters ARE fixed? Good folks almost always remain good & the rotten ones stay that way? More interesting is what happens when good folks get "under pressure", this really shows who´s got character. Many do-gooders will "betray for silver" if they have to face hardship; 70% of the good folks are good only when the sun shines & food is in the freezer. "Good" is a very soft, brittle material.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the concepts themselves are flawed when it comes to defining good and evil? People are just people, being people. I used to work in a restaurant. After a shift one day when we were all sitting around talking (20ish people) the conversation turned to cheating on your partner. Everyone chimed in that it was not something shameful or wrong because "everybody did it". Everyone there engaged in rationalization and agreement and some groupthink that since they had all cheated, cheating was natural and OK. Then I spoke up. I have never cheated. Ever. I think it is rude. I don't see the point. If I am done with a lover I simply leave them or give them to someone else and move the fuck along to the next person. I don't see the point in the drama of cheating.
DeleteAfter my statement everyone in the room had a moment of shame. First they accused me of lying. I was actually not. When they realized that their premise/excuse was fallacious on ONLY ONE person they all felt shamed. I found it strange and began studying it.
People, I have found, have as their main rationalization of what they know to be "bad behavior" that "everyone else is doing it". They convince themselves of this "fact". Liars believe that everyone lies, cheaters that everyone cheats. If you are in a relationship, platonic or otherwise with a person who wrongly accuses you of a "bad behavior" you can bet money they are doing it themselves. By making themselves believe you have done it too they pardon their own sin. They are no longer responsible for their own behavior because they have assigned it to you. I always ask people when I am first getting to know them what they dislike most about the behavior of other people. What they feel is unforgivable. Whatever they tell me is what they do themselves and hate most about themselves.
Great video. No real surprises for me. As a sociopath I learned early that mirroring another's unconscious tics and movements predisposes them to liking me and giving me aid should I need it. Another good one is feeding them. Feeding people is seen by the subconscious brain as bringing them into your tribe/family. Those who feed you care for you therefor they are your family. Dancing with someone was the easiest way to seduce them if I so desired.
I think you may have gotten your percentages wrong though. No matter where I have worked I have run experiments on the customers. 95% percent of people will return a lost item/wallet even several $100.00 bills laying on the ground. 4% will take the item/money and run. 1% will take it out of someone else's hand/pocket. This is regardless of the socioeconomic area I was working in. Most people are "good" as a first instinct. But we remember that last 5% more.
Puppy Basket, as usual your remarks are interesting. I do wonder about "Whatever they tell me is what they do themselves and hate most about themselves." I'm not really sure, but it does strike me that some people do not hate or dislike anything about themselves but can often regard others with disdain.
DeleteIt could be that any internalized blame or self-criticism or dislike is repressed out of conscious experience or it could be that they simply do not see the point in seeing themselves as anything less than perfect in their own mind. I've often wondered about this.
@9:20
DeleteThe empathic response would have been to lie about your own experiences, so as not to upset the rest of the group.
Good thing that I am not an Empath then.... :)
DeleteI enjoy calling ethical BS on people. The funny thing is I don;t actually judge them for being cheats, I could care less. It is just not something I do. Which makes the whole reaction more ironic.
I have never cheated either. But I am certainly over judging anybody who does.
DeleteYou can not reach this conclusion because the experiment was in a public area and the guinea pigs knew they could be caught.
DeleteThe possibility of being discovered changes everything. Even a sadistic monster would return the money in this situation.
There have actually been a few studies that back up my data points. I will look them up for you. The being in public thing is absolutely no deterrent for a true sociopath. The thought you might be caught actually adds to the thrill. For the 100% antisocial "feeler" type of criminal the want always outweighs the possible punishment. As to your sadistic monster hypothesis, sadly no, these people do not seem to have a shame response. Caught red handed they will deny that they did it. I have even seen them try to dispute video proof. Looking straight at a film of themselves committing a crime they will try and convince people that is a) not them, b) OK maybe it was them but it was not what it seems, and on and on and on. But that is the 5%.
DeleteIn worse off socioeconomic areas this percentage can be higher. Add intoxicants to the mix and again you see a huge slip of morals. The monster, as you say, comes out.
That is an interesting point though. I would really like to see a study of maybe 200 at least people asked to make moral choices sober, tipsy and really drunk. It is a fact that cocaine and meth user's moral sense just evaporates as does their common sense. Long term alcohol abuse and even gambling or sex addiction seem to have the same effect though to what comparative degree I am not sure. Starting to ramble time for bed.
On another thread I was asked why I come to this blog.
ReplyDeleteI come to this blog because I happen to be very impressed with M.E,
She is a very good spokesperson for her views. She certainly did follow the addage: "You have to sell yourself."
People are usually attracted to charateristics in other people that they
themselves don't possess. One thing you can tell about M.E. is that she
combines both disclipline AND risk taking. This is a necessary combination for sucess. People admire other people who have mastered
weaknesses they have not. That's why the masses of people lead lives of
quiet desperation, and are "nowhere people" "waiting for Gadot."
That's the reason for organized religon "the opaite of the masses."
You have to be fairly intelligent to even know about M.E.'s existence.
You have to read such material as Psychology Today that feature M.E.'s
book. That leads you to this blog, and so on.
I think it's wonderful that M.E. is suffenctly "protected." She is a
professional woman with many "pratical " skills to fall back on. She
claims she's "set" but she can make it as a teacher, attorney, or a
musician. (Have you seen the size of her hands in that constant motion
film strip? She looks a little bit like Jodi Arias, but so what? Release Jodi
today and men would flock to be with her by the dozens,)
Last, but not least, this is a very "Democratic" blog. Most everything IS
printed, whether M.E. would agree with it or not.
I can't believe that this is typical Sociopath "smoke and mirrors" because
it's lasted so long. There have been plenty of "fly-by-night-frauds."
M.E isn't one. Oh, and I forgot to mention another one of M.E.'s aids:
She lives in a supportive community that would help her if everything
went bad for her-her Mormon community in Utah. And she still is on good terms with her family.
I've studied all I could gather about M.E. from my understanding of
Personality systems. I do NOT see her as a sociopath. But perhaps that's
the skill OF a Sociopath, they are good con artists.
what film strip?
Deleteit's a GIF- wonder- is it somehow accessible through Vine?
DeleteCan't say I agree with you, Anon. I don't think ME is particularly impressive as an individual. I think she's more of a malignant narcissist than a sociopath. I'm still reading her book; don't get me wrong, she is a good writer as well as a smart and capable individual and I did greatly enjoy most of the chapters I've read so far, but there have been parts of the book in which I couldn't help but roll my eyes at the severe lack of self-awareness and what amounted to mental masturbation. It was uncomfortable to watch/read. A person like her lacks discipline where it matters. She seems to be mostly driven by her ego and fantasies of power and success; people like that shoot themselves in the foot more often than not when they lack self-awareness. I'm glad she founded this blog, though. Hers is a worthy, if self-serving, cause.
DeleteThe full spectrum of dark and light human potentialities exist the same for everyone. Perhaps it's wise to remember that 'white light' is in fact comprised of all colors.
ReplyDeleteBut few people are truly willing to explore their own darkness. It can often be shocking to discover that you, the much beloved, saint who helps the poor and the sick, really wants to sock some belligerent, ungrateful bum in the eye. I know because I work with people who are very easy to hate; it's my job to serve and protect them.
Character is fate, Jung once said. He also said that the qualities we repress in the unconscious often appear in our life through external situations, as destiny. Jung's heroic psychology also included a sympathetic look at astrology, a subject I myself have studied for decades. (Yes, I do know what most people think of astrology but don't care, as I've heard it all before.) In terms of the video posted by M.E. and the idea that many people label others according to a simplistic 'color scheme,' astrology may perhaps help clarify a few things. (Or make things more muddy, depending on your taste.)
Someone born with prominent Venus characteristics will likely appear friendly, outgoing, charming, graceful, etc. But somewhere under that charming surface, buried in their horoscope, sits Pluto (Scorpio characteristics). Pluto symbolizes ultimate power: think world leaders, the atom bomb, a laser that both cuts and heals. The lord Hades, as he is fondly called, is a dark, instinctual force of transformation, death and rebirth. Pluto has no pity, and neither do we when this planet unearths unacknowledged qualities that we've spent an entire life denying even exist. But sooner or later, if the person lives long enough, the force of Pluto will rise up from the psyche's depths: the person may then suddenly become possessed by envy, hate or jealously. Where once the persona was light-hearted, generous and easy to get along with, now it gleams with a terrible light that others find shocking and out of character. The truth is that those dark feelings were always there but buried and repressed.
The reverse is also true: A tough and practical Saturn type (Capricorn) can live solely for their goals until a planet like Neptune comes along to undermine the fruits of their ambition. Then comes the lament "I've worked so hard. I seem to have gotten it all but something's missing. Is that all there is?" Suddenly the selfish goals appear empty, and a new search for meaning that includes the whole of life commences. The Capricorn's hard stubborn ego is permeated, little by little, by the desire for meaningful union with others, and to merge with something greater than oneself. No matter how cold and manipulative the Capricorn may seem, no matter how many years they clung to ambition, somewhere inside of them this oceanic feeling is waiting for recognition and expression. Whether or not they tap into it consciously is what can make it a problem. Any planet, person or thing can be seen as either helpful or dangerous. In fact, they are always both. A knife cuts both bread and flesh.
So far as I'm concerned nobody can say they are either all light or all dark. Life always seeks wholeness and wholeness includes some pretty ugly stuff; Through life's changing circumstances we are forced to accept and grow with/through these things, or die. Choosing to evolve means choosing to face your darkness and your light. Facing either one is very hard, because often we bury some of our good along with some of our bad. And those good parts may also disturb the people we love.
I enjoyed the part of the video where the presenter discusses what happens when we move together, in sync. Like dancing. When we dance we merge together with others, through music. The rhythm becomes a medium through which our common human spirit becomes linked. We know we're linked with our dancing partner because they are swaying in time and in space _with_ us.
June Harvey,
Delete" I know because I work with people who are very easy to hate; it's my job to serve and protect them."
I'm curious. What is the socioeconomic status of the people you protect?
Hard-to-house. That's why so many of them are criminals. Looking up their records is an interesting pastime.
DeleteFor this reason, I have always had a hard time with the idea that once someone is diagnosed with an axis II disorder then they are unlikely to change. I think there might always be a "flavor" of personality that remains constant but the level of pathology shifts according to a number of factors that include environment, personal choice, whether behaviors are positively or negatively reinforced, and the brain's continued developmental trajectory.
ReplyDeleteAn anon a while back (possibly the one above) posted about the Personality evaluation system called the Enneagram. While most systems of categorizing personalities feel like the academic version of a buzz feed quiz, I find the Enneagram theory very helpful to understand the different challenges different temperaments face and that we are all in a state of integrating a healthy core self or in having our personalities disintegrate into psychosis, criminality, and general ruin.
The reason I like the Enneagram is that it doesn't prescribe one size fits all moral solutions that everyone should aspire to. Instead, the nine types each have a path of integration and disintegration. This feels much more accurate than a linear and binary continuum to judge people's actions by.
For example- the "selfless" two integrates by moving towards the emotional/artistic behaviors of a four and tries to avoid slipping into the controlling behaviors of the "leader" eight. Yet the eight does well to move towards selflessness…. It's a very helpful way to plot the path to wisdom because it incorporates the understanding that we all start in different places due to our dominant temperament. But the path of transcendence requires integrating the wisdom and strengths of the other types. There isn't a right temperament.
That said, sociopathic types seem to be 8 or very disturbed versions of the other types. Manipulative codependents tend to be 2. Armchair philosophers tend to be 5. Broody poetics types are 4. Institutional men/women tend to be 6. Entertainers/celebrities are often 7. High achiever/narcissistic types are 3. Self sacrificing idealists are 1. Conflict avoiders tend to be 9.
What's cool is that each type is morally neutral. It's the path of development that ultimately determines whether that personality is disordered or evolved.
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/
ReplyDeleteTook the test. The nine types do appear to capture certain 'common core' characteristics.
DeleteMy results were spread perfectly even across four types: 2,4,5,9. I'd guess there would not be much difference in the evenly spread score if I took the long form test; there was only one type/quality where I scored lower than I anticipated. Type 1. Guess 36 questions isn't enough to coax the rebel in my closet to come out. ;p
I enjoy taking little tests like the enneagram. Big tests, too. But, to be perfectly biased and frank, it appears to me that the heights and depths of astrology trump all of them, in terms of capturing the many-conflicting facets of being human and in terms of validating the essential experience of the individual. Like enneagrams, astrology is morally neutral. Unless, of course, the astrologer him/herself is projecting their bias on to their client.
In any case, I enjoyed reading about my 4-pronged personality at the enneagram institute site.
I like the idea of astrology, but get hung up on the mechanics of it. The only thing I find that feels like a real; life validation of astrological principles is that there are studies that link personalities and mental illness with the months a baby spends its last three months gestating.
DeleteAlso, there's a lot of oversimplified crap out there. It it pops up on an MSN webpage then I'm guessing there's not a ton of "wisdom". That said, I am particularly interested in the 4 major planetary transitions most people experience between 36 and 44 because they do seem to resonate with what I am seeing in my peer group.
There's also the fact that astrology has been around forever, so it clearly taps into something that resonates with human experience that transcends cultural trends. You and I are both fans of Jung so perhaps the least clumsy way of my explaining why I am drawn to the idea of astrology is because I feel it articulates things within our collective unconscious.
So- a favor- any book/website recommendations on this topic?
For a quick look at the kind of astrology I'm into: any book by Liz Greene, Erin Sullivan, Melanie Klein (her Chiron book), and in terms of mid-life planetary transits, The Gods of Change:Pain, Crisis and the Transits of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, by Howard Sasportas. These books focus on the psychology of astrology. For some fun free readings go to astrodienst.com. Check out a sample of Liz Greene and Rob Hand's analysis. Just remember that these readings are computerized readings that Liz and Rob have written the text for. Greene is particularly brilliant -- a Virgo with a detailed, scholarly mind.
DeleteI don't really practice astrology anymore with clients, for the public -- it's quite exhausting and some clients can and do become addicted to you, unfortunately. It can be kinda dangerous for the soul, too. Astrology, like any other art or skill, can bloat the ego into cosmic proportions; staying humble while reading the footprints of god for others is not easy. It can mess with your head in other ways, too. Discrimination is the key (as always). There's A LOT of astrological crap written out there. So be skeptical and read a lot. Jung was skeptical but also open-minded -- that's why he was able to see the psyche, the collective unconscious and its love of symbolism, of story and myth, at work in astrology. Without falling into superstition.
thanks- will check it out. Esp. by the Chiron book
DeleteHi Mach, Thanks. Gremlins inside my computer twice prevented me from answering your post, so this time round, it will be shortened.
DeleteChiron is the story of the wounded healer and is dominant in the charts of people who work in the healing arts. I myself have Chiron conjunct the Sun . . . Anyway, Chiron was so ugly that his mother abandoned him and this primal wound drove him to study and master many skills: hunting, medicine, music, astrology and music. He was the teacher of many Greek heros, guiding them along in their quest. But he could not heal his own wound given him by Heracles, who accidentally wounded him with an arrow dipped in the hydra's blood. So terrible was the pain he gave up his immortality. This healing warrior, half-man, half horse archetype depicts the uneasy mixture of man and beast, of the divine spirit (his dad was Kronos) struggling with animal within. If you'd like me to give a very short version of the archetypes of the planets associated with midlife transits, just ask. I enjoy sharing the poetry of the stars.
I work with a guy, a recovered addict-rock-star, who took the standard psychopath test -- his diagnosis was "There is a 50% chance you are a psychopath."
ReplyDeleteHe laughed at the result (do did I) and seemed rather pleased. Later, after I told him not to share his diagnosis with anyone, for obvious reasons, he became concerned. He has a violent past and was worried his hard-core attitudes would once again get him into trouble. What's interesting is that during the time I've known him he has greatly changed: he has opened his heart again to women and the world. This receptiveness to feeling for another person has left him very vulnerable. But instead of putting up concrete barriers, he has decided to listen to the music and dance. It's frightening for him but I can see that this openness and his conscious connection to vulnerability has softened his cynical view of life. He has suddenly become not only more kind but less arrogant, more carefree and willing to help those in need. If I had known him before his 'fall,' when he was a successful musician, I would not have seen this tender side of him. Because he does have a very dark side, his growing light shines to me all the brighter.
What the hell did that have to do with her article??? Seriously, I would really like to know. I mean all I read was you worshipping a person you don't know. Pathetic.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you need to calm down a bit, take your pills?
DeleteThe person you mention is a good friend and co-worker whom I've known for years. He is fascinated with this site. He asked me to write something about him here, in regards to his struggle with his dark side. Hoping, I suppose, someone would post something about their own struggle with being 'typed,' cornered and pruned. He's very curious about what others think on this site but is too shy to post himself. If that bugs you, oh well.
I'm afraid that it's all too true, June.
DeleteI don't know how you've managed to convince yourself that anyone cares about the inane topics you keep posting here. You're clearly delusional.
Gone insane from taking too many of those seemingly innocent online 'quizzes'.
Ho Hum. Name-calling, dissing in general, is for the dumb and boring.
DeleteTo answer MJ's original Q, which, btw, displays a certain ignorance regarding M.E.'s post, I refer to my last line. "Because he does have a very dark side, his growing light shines to me all the brighter."
DeleteM.E clearly compares shades of character in her article to varying frequencies of light.
My specialty.
I think people can adapt, not change. Your rock star friend may have become less cynical to adapt to the new situation, probably because now he can not act like a jerk and get away with it like he did in the past.
DeleteYou have seriously never seen anyone in your lifetime change? You need to hang around a better class of people maybe? Leave the house occasionally maybe? Meet actual people.
DeleteAnon, Rock star has ample opportunity to act like a jerk and get away with it. We hold power over the so-called 'scum' of society: hookers, addicts, the mentally ill. Even the gangbangers who come to visit (re-supply) the building have to treat us carefully, because the tenant-dealers they supply can be reported, evicted, jailed. Many of my co-workers degrade and mentally torture the tenants and their guests, stealing their food, spitting in their food, making false reports, playing little sadistic games.
DeleteRock star, despite his cynicism and adoration of violence, gives them smokes, food, does them favors. It's a bit of a mystery, given his extreme contempt for some of these people.
June, have you asked Rock Star why he does favours for people he holds in contempt? And, do you think he holds you in contempt, so it could be a general contempt he has for almost everyone?
Deleteanon.
Deletetrolling on sociopath world is a bit contrived. It's kind of like fat shaming at a weight watchers meeting. You don't really achieve anything.
There's an audience for your righteous (?) indignation- not trying to silence you- simply pointing out that you will find more resonance for your trolling if you stick to blogs that are cater more to victims. Victims love blame. But on this site, it's not as effective because people generally are trying to explore/understand their dark sides rather than run from them.
Mach, what you say is very true. This site is not for the people who want to stay victims; nor is it for the people who want to stay victimizers, as a matter if fact. It seems to be more for the ex-victims and and the ex-victimizers, these days. When a victim who wallows in his or her victimhood comes ranting, their are shut off in a hurry. Same with a low functioning sociopath. I don't think either stay on this site too long.
DeleteJune, I hope "your" rock star starts participating. Eh, we already have a name for him: RockStar, or perhaps ex-rockstar. We all seem to be ex something here, have learned from it, and are comparing notes on sociopathworld. Even if his vulnerability and kindness to the tenants are not as genuine as it might be if it was coming from a more "innocent" person, they are still present. Perhaps he uses his intellect to be a good person. Perhaps he has lost the instinct to be a social person, like puppy basket and others have described. But to me, this is what a high functioning sociopaths is. They recognize that their social instinct is poor or missing, and they compensate with their intellect. Which I find is somewhat similar to ex victims. Ex victims probably had too much of that social instinct, of that glu that keeps our society knit together. They also had to learn to use their intellect to compensate for this and stop being taken advantage of.
June, I said "your" rock star because you do sound a bit taken by him. I am assuming he knows that, and that you do as well. A strange friendship. You probably can't talk too much about the friendship since you both read this site. And if you do, it could be tainted or subdued by the fact that you know he reads the site. Both of you will not be as candid as others are on this site, since you have work with each other. Nonetheless, I hope we get to read you both soon.
DeleteHi all,
DeleteNo, Rockstar does not treat me with contempt -- he calls me his mentor and loves having long, long philosophical conversations. He's definitely a seeker of wisdom. Very calculating, discriminating and intellectual. My intuitive sense is that he's actually very much a big bad broken heart -- it's a huge heart that he's buried for who knows how long.
I'm guessing that he has become more kind to the difficult people we work with because of what PB said -- he feels some kind of spiritual longing and does not really want to hurt others. He can't help it, I think, that he also longs to smash some faces. It's just that he's very graphic when he talks about it, which makes me wonder how close to exploding he might be. If he saw anyone hurt any woman, even a skinny junkie who robs her johns, I think he'd go ape-shit. There's this pent up rage that's barely held in place, hidden under his skin.
I will ask him to post, OldandWise. Can't promise he will, of course. It's up to him. I wish he would cause I think he'd find it fun and stimulating.
Oldandwise, I'm not taken with him in the way people here seem to think. Sure, he's young and cute but he's not the person I'd choose to mate with. I'm old and wise enough not to go there, no matter how much fun the frolic might be. I would hurt him if we hooked up; he's longing for a true mate. I cannot love him that way. Like PB, I'm very conscious of on an intuitive level. It would be spiritually wrong to take advantage of him simply for a roll in the hay.
DeleteI am, however, taken with his gloating violence combined with a very tender heart. It's fascinating to listen to him flip back and forth; and I want to understand. I'm very curious cat. Insatiably curious, which to a lot of people looks and sounds like love. Love of knowledge.
June, has rockstar ever hurt you (emotionally), either on purpose or accidently? Does he flirt with you? Does he lie to you? You say he sees you as his mentor. Do you think he would stay in contact with you if you did not work together anymore? Do you know anything of his life outside of work apart from what he tells you? ... I have other questions, but I will stop for now. Hopefully you will answer those. Let me know if I can ask more...
DeleteJune, I'm as curious as everyone else who has commented on your interaction with rockstar. It's interesting to be able to get both sides of a relationship and doesn't happen all that often.
DeleteAbout "I am, however, taken with his gloating violence combined with a very tender heart. It's fascinating to listen to him flip back and forth; and I want to understand."
that kind of fascination for me was a big draw into a pathological relationship. How can someone appear so gentle (as he did at the time) and express such violent impulses or fantasies -- a rage just barely contained? Little did I know. He didn't hit me but was cruel in other ways. I"m not saying rockstar is or would be cruel.
Old and Wise, RS have never hurt me. His dark humor and practical, somewhat callous attitude towards survival have helped me. I've helped him by reading his horoscope and giving him insight into his cycles of development. It's very much a give and take relationship in which both people feel supported and stimulated without crossing certain lines. I feel safe that he will not take advantage me -- he could have many, many times but did not.
DeleteHe flirts with all good-looking women. Even the ugly ones he tries to compliment -- making a violent female addict feel good is smart. It deescalates potentially explosive situations.
I'm sure he's lied to me at some point. Everybody lies. But as you know, some lies don't matter much -- they reveal more than they hide.
I know he would hang out with me outside of work because we do all the time. We are very good friends and he lives nearby; we know many of the same people. I think we'll be friends for life. We support each other to grow through our weaknesses: he's gotten sweeter, I've gotten tougher.
I asked him about posting here. He's thinking about it, seems interested. He just a tad paranoid about interacting with socios whom might hack his computer, so he's thinking about posting from another place besides his home.
Ask away.
DoctorSciFi,
DeleteI appreciate your concern and know that you are right about being fascinated: it's gotten me into trouble before. But I am a different person than I was ten years ago -- a lot more savvy and wary. Plus, I live, eat and breathe like a monk. I do not date nor do I want to. I suppose you could say my goal is enlightenment, but since I know I'll never get there, I'll settle for being giver not a taker. So, there's little chance RS can pull those kinds of romantic strings. In fact, we already talked about our strange attraction (as in physics), and we both realize that this relationship is about learning and growing.
Thank you for your concern.
I watched the entire video. I am already familiar with most of the information presented. The video presented it in a coherent and (to me) convincing way. Each of us thinks we are a certain "self" (ego). We are not. Essentially we are a pattern of energy in flux. The color analogy works pretty well. Sociopaths might be "red" flux patterns. One red might be a different hue than another red flux pattern. Empaths might be "green" flux patterns. Over time, flux changes. One red (sociopath) pattern might become more green (empathic) over time. One green pattern might be come more red over time (more sociopathic).
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting this. I was kind of bored and restless. The video held my attention and provided me with some useful insights. There might be a bunny outside our garden where we live in the woods. I used to shoot the bunnies (rationalizing that they were eating our organic garden), but I have become more tolerant over time. After viewing this video, I might go out and shoot a bunny, just to keep my red blood cell count up.
Well, I hope you eat what you kill. Bunnies are actually quite delicious. Used to shoot them with a bow -- you have to get fairly close. Least I did.
DeleteMmmmm bunnies.....
DeleteCivet de lapin au vin rouge...
Delete... Too many French people on this site...
When comparing birds & bees, the bees somehow seemed more interesting..
DeleteAnon,
DeleteBirds sing, bees sting. Hope you're not allergic. ;-) Just kidding.
Just figured out how to get notify to work.
ReplyDeleteWhy do bad people do good things?
ReplyDeletePoor impulse control?
DeletePuppy Basket, heh heh. Good answer.
DeleteDots, Because they can? Because it's simply another form of wielding power? Makes them feel in control?
Truthfully it is because of my moral code if it is a compassion/kindness issue. If it is a jumping in there and saving the day sort of thing it is because of I can. I have the skills, it needs doing, no one else will probably step up and even if they did that does not relieve my moral obligation to help another.
DeleteIn theory an empath should always do the "right thing." In theory a sociopath is going to do the "wrong thing" perhaps half the time because "why not?" In practice, right thing and wrong thing is not obvious. I forget from time to time that ME pretends to be a Mormon. In practice, if someone comes at me with a gun and I shoot the attacker dead first, I m might have self defense as a self justification and the circumstances may be complex and confusing. If Puppy Basket is a sociopath (I forget), it might just do the right thing out of confusion, or boredom or playing solitaire with life or because there's a pay off the rest of us are too dumb to see. Perhaps Puppy Basket eats puppies. Perhaps the puppies are rabid or wolves?
DeleteI agree, RA. Empaths usually do act spontaneously because it's the right thing, and, to do otherwise makes them feel guilty. Guilt warps the empath's 'mission' to do good works. But they don't usually see that until later; then, if they are at all introspective, they dig into their own muck. Which can clarify why they are doing what they do, when, and so on.
DeleteI don't know if Puppy Basket is a self-identified socio, but I suspect she doesn't eat puppies. Just saying. From her previous posts, she appears much more refined in her appetites.
Wolves are tragically easy to trap. They skin very easily. Not like a beaver, which takes skill and patience.
I am a sociopath. I am one however who saves instead of destroying animals. Growing up I was able to understand animals better than people. Still am. Animals think more like I do so I identify with them more than I do people. Also I find them artistically pleasing. I prefer challenges so animals are not good targets for me when I am feeling "the urge".
DeleteThe payoff, so to speak, is living with integrity. Something few people do, empath or socio. Also I have lifesaving training so it is a trained behavior that has become natural. Also ADRENALINE!
I too like to notion of using my indifference to people as a means of doing something better in the world. It sounds silly to even say it, but if you give me even the whiff of being on some sort of high ground, I will run with it - knives out and grinning.
DeleteThere's nothing like the high of going at some jerkoff with the (not always justified) belief that everyone is rooting for you to knock them down a peg or two. Yeah - I get the adrenaline...but there's a more sublime pleasure in it too...
Animals, like dumb people, are like shooting fish in a barrel - there's no sport in it and, like PB, I tend to identify more with the animal...though, I am more of a cat person...
So, I guess the less indulgent answer to the question of why sometime people do bad things...for me: it feels good and I don't always see it as "bad" in the moment.
DeleteI actually prefer cats too. Dogs are bit too needy for me. Like HLJaller said there is some social currency to be gained by doing the right thing/being the hero. Not my underlying motivation but a nice benefit.
DeleteI do it to please the elder gods.
DeleteHL, "It sounds silly to even say it, but if you give me even the whiff of being on some sort of high ground, I will run with it - knives out and grinning."
DeleteI can relate to what you're saying if you are talking about a hypocritical empath, and other lesser beings. But, does that also include socios who take the high road?
Given the number of people in this world who believe their piss is akin to holy water, you might want to consider carrying in your pocket a whetstone . . . keep those knives sharpened.
Hi June, socios often appear hypocritical -- applying one set of moral standards to themselves and a different set to others - esp those who play the 'victim' card.
DeleteI don't know if they believe in their proclaimed morality, but they certainly believe this game gives them an advantage, somehow even when they know you see through it all, and they look like fools, they still play that game.
Just like some politicians: Morality as a public sport.
DeleteI wonder why the game is so vitally important to socios. The 'game of life' in the end is simply a game. It's pretend, which is not real life. I'm guessing they get some 'juice' out of it, but if they wind up looking like fools, what's the point?
On the other hand, PB certainly does sound devoted to her principles. And that devotion appears to resonate with something deep she seems to cherish.
"Truthfully it is because of my moral code if it is a compassion/kindness issue. If it is a jumping in there and saving the day sort of thing it is because of I can."
DeleteThat's beautiful but you are lying until proven otherwise.
I could be. This is the internet after all. There is no actual way to prove I am as I present myself. You could always question me though. Liars can rarely stand up to repeated questioning. The other reason you could believe me is motive. If I was relaying this information for sociopathic reasons it would be for my self-aggrandizement. I claim only to be a servant of my Higher Power. If you have questions just ask. I don't pretend to be perfect. I have days I slip back into old behaviors, or am tempted to. I can recognize them now, loss of the self delusion is key. I enjoy my life, I am at peace now.
DeleteYou could have easily as said I am being truthful unless proven otherwise. But why do need proof unless you wish to follow my path? It effects you not.
I claim only to be a servant of my Higher Power. ergo preachers never lie
DeleteI give credit where due for the reason that if I believe I am the actor then my ego will go wild again and I will be right back where I was. Most Preachers piss me the hell off. My Mahatma actually practices what she preaches. Lives simply and gives every cent to help others and pitches in physically herself. Still cleans the Ashram with her own hands. I always had trouble following the teachings of someone who did not lead by example.
DeletePuppy Basket,
DeleteI feel the way you do: Walk the talk or shut up. There's a story about Gandhi getting into a bicker with his wife, who did not feel she should have to clean the toilets of the commune, because of her caste. Gandhi told her to do it and why. She shut up and cleaned out the shitters. Like a good spiritual girl should. If you can't handle the dross of life, you're out of touch with both humanity and the divine.
June and Puppy Basket, you both make a lot of sense. Refreshing.
DeleteReligion sure is a useful thing.
DeleteIt puts its believers in debt, and then calls it love.
Because we could all use some love.
Thanks, Mach. You're rich in common sense yourself. I enjoy reading your posts. Too busy to respond to everyone I'd like to.
DeleteHmmm...the posting gremlins seem to have taken a fancy to me...let's try this again...
DeleteHi June: it actually doesn't make any difference to me if the target is empathic or otherwise, so long as they are "deserving" and I'm not shooting fish in a barrel. The conflicts are very different depending on the target - though...
What is actually the more important element for me is that "whiff" - that combination of the heat of conflict and the sense that is being done is justifiable that lead to that sublime pleasure (when I say, "grinning," I mean it...) - it's more than adrenaline...
As I've gotten older, however, I've come to recognize the destructive results that come with that pleasure - not unlike a hangover. Like an alcoholic, it's that "whiff" and how I respond to the trigger that I try to focus in more constructive ways. I've found an elegance in getting what I want without conflict.
It's not unlike what I consider the perfect con: they never knew they were took. Now THAT is sublime...
Puppy Basket,
ReplyDeleteYour comments interest me, because, if I read correctly your previous posts you identify with certain socio traits which contradict caring about strangers, thus risking yourself.
Jumping in there. If you at all resonate with codes of compassion/kindness that's the way of it, I'm afraid. Kindness, like savagery, can act on impulse.
Kinda sucks at times.
But you only live once. So they say, and if so, I'm here for a hell of a ride.
Moral obligations seem to me to equal obligatory feelings. Why would you feel an obligation to help a stranger in need?
My spiritual beliefs and practices demand it of me. Duty and service is the highest calling. Worship of the Divine is the practice of our beliefs, not the lip service we give them.
DeleteI just realized the problem here. I don't "feel" a moral obligation to help people any more that I "feel" a moral obligation not to kill them. I help instead of hinder simply because it is the contract I made with my Higher Power. I don't actually get much of a emotional reward for it at all. I sometimes get adrenaline but that is about it.
DeleteIt sounds like you are very devoted to your higher power. Devotion, to my mind, is a type of earnest attachment that is consecrated by performing certain acts, especially self-less acts. This seems to be a curious drive for a socio to have, especially if the reward is small, erratic or hard to pinpoint. (Putting aside the occasional shot of adrenaline and social benefits.)
DeleteThere are many empaths I know who live to give, and it's all about feeding their ego, which they would never admit. Real giving and kindness, risking your own life for someone else, seeks no reward. It acts more like an impulse than a thought.
In fact, even wild animals I've seen on the internet show videos of incredible interspecies contact, much of it in the context of saving, comforting and giving. One is of a bear in a European zoo who saves a crow from downing in its pool. I've encountered many bears in the wild and this behavior appears to me totally out of character -- I can't help wonder why the bear didn't kill the crow. Perhaps he was simply bored.
In any case, your attitude toward the divine contract and towards animals is very interesting.
Back onto the main subject which we seemed to have totes derailed :)
DeleteI for one don't assume people to be "Good" or "Bad". It amazes me that so many people do. Many people seem to try to stuff people into categories instead of realizing that they are amorphous being. Who I was in High School is not who I am today. I tend to judge people on the things they do and not the things they say since so many people say one thing and then do another. I also have spent a lifetime studying people and yes, experimenting on them, for my own edification and amusement.
My conclusions are that if you know how, if you find out where the levers are, people are as malleable as clay. I have converted a lifelong atheist in 15 minutes and made atheists out of lifelong believers in about a hour. Changing people's core values is not, in fact, hard. It is a fairly simple matter to deconstruct a person down to component parts and rebuild them as you please.
This, I think, is what terrifies people so much about sociopaths. Some of us have figured out how to do this, some of us do a small scale version. People like to think that they are who they have told themselves they are. They believe that they are whatever story they have constructed for themselves. People are in fact little meat computers humming along repeating their programming. Disrupt the programmed responses and people actually have to "reboot".
Try this experiment if you don't believe me. In the middle of a conversation with a friend, without warning, lick their nose. Smile at them like it was the most natural thing in the world and continue the conversation like nothing happened. (Do not do this to strangers). Their brain will stop functioning. Just plain stop. When confronted by behavior the brain is not programmed to deal with it literally shuts down and reboots.
There are thousands of tricks like the number thing in the video and the tapping you can do to people that changes the way they perceive the world. The way their brain functions. It is proof that people are not what they believe themselves to be, autonomous individuals with free will. Instead they are at every moment a little meat computer that processes outside stimuli based on previous programming including unconscious responses.
People like to think that they have total control over who they are and what they think. If this was true the advertising industry would go bankrupt in a day. Our morals, beliefs, and indeed our personalities are things we have learned. We might tell ourselves that our beliefs are our choice but are they really? Past experiences, the manner in which we learn, and what we WANT to believe is true are actually more important factors in creating a personality than "figuring out" who we are.
Gotta go now, but please... discuss.
Puppy Basket, if people were 'as malleable as clay' you could win a Nobel Prize for explaining the 'levers' and demonstrating out how to treat personality disorders, since in general no one knows how.
DeleteDefinition: "Personality disorders are a class of mental disorders characterized by enduring maladaptive patterns of behavior, cognition and inner experience, exhibited across many contexts and deviating markedly from those accepted by the individual's culture. These patterns develop early, are inflexible and are associated with significant distress or disability."
So what would be your method of treatment for these enduring disorders?
Puppy Basket, "Our morals, beliefs, and indeed our personalities are things we have learned." There's a lot of truth to that.
DeleteCourse, I would also argue that genetics plays a big part. The concrete expression of genetics, however, depends on the environment. Genes lying dormant can be triggered by stress, drugs, your dad beating or raping you, etc., especially if the trigger is prolonged. There's a bunch of stuff that impacts the how and when of genes being catalyzed that we don't yet understand.
How malleable are we? Pretty malleable (adaptable), I'd guess. Otherwise the human race would be extinct by now. Can a predator act differently if it wants to? Sure it can: There are lions who still recall 'their' human friends from early childhood, long after the lions had been returned to live the in wild. They didn't eat them, even though that person may be the only meal around for miles.
I'd like to hear your opinion of how you would treat these 'enduring disorders.'
First thing to realize is that people won't change unless they see some benefit to it. If you can offer them no benefit to the change you are trying to make in them they are going to be resistant to it. There are ways to force mental changes onto people... I don't recommend them and I will not list them especially on this site for obvious reasons. But if the person wants to change or you have given them a good reason then.
Delete1. Find out how the person thinks.
Not everyone thinks in the same manner. I teach people by first finding out how they think and how they learn and how they remember. People process information differently. They see things also through the "veil" of their prejudices. People react in different manners when presented with the same information for instance. To change a deep seated part of a person you must know how to present the information in a manner they will not only accept but "take to heart".
2. Find out what composes the central story of the person. What is most important to them, what they believe spiritually, what childhood trauma do they carry. Fond out what they like about themselves and what they dislike. What they really want to be like.
This is important because to implement a true change you need to find out not only what motivates people but what motivations are holding them back in life. What they fear and what they hope for are your two biggest levers.
3. There is reason spiritual learning is most often put down as parables. People are characters in their own story. That is on the most basic level how our brains work. By teaching through song or story people can see themselves (if done correctly ) in the stories actors and that imprints itself into their being. That is why TV and Books have such a profound influence on our lives. If you can present your lesson/imprint as a story correctly and as a TRUE and engaging story at that, people will remember it. They will consider it. It will become part of their story.
4. Listen. I really should have this as number one but I suppose it is implied. Listen to the person, question them, engage them. Find commonality between your experiences and theirs. The more of themselves people find themselves in you the more likely they are to accept your information as truth.
5. Remove the illusion of ego. This would entail a book in itself.
6. Rebuild the person.
I don't buy into the premise that "enduring disorders" are "incurable". I have seen the change. I have been the change. There is always hope. It takes perseverance, it does not happen overnight and the person must WANT the change for it to be permanent. But it is possible. Remove the selfish self serving deluding bits. Clear the past, keep them focused on the single moment that is now. No past to regret, no future to fear, no "self" to aggrandize. I know it works because I have seen it work. Not for everyone but for many. Many is enough for me.
That's interesting PB. About 1) and 2) -- find out how the person thinks and what is the central story of that person --
Deletewhat if that person is a pathological liar? A person like this could lie about what they had for breakfast, about their education, about what they did for decades in their life. There are people who fabricate significant parts of their life history, like fake military heroism, being a prisoner of war, going on secret missions to kill ex-Nazis...
How do you get to 1 and 2 if the person habitually lies to prevent that from happening? And what is the point of 4) to Listen, if there is no reason to believe a word that such a person might say?
It does seem to me that people like that are locked away in their own private world.
Dr. Scifi that is where the listening and questioning comes in. Helpful hint when dealing with a pathological liar. When/if they tell the truth it comes out as a simple unvarnished statement. If they are adding details, they are lying. If they are giving reasons why, they are lying. If they have "witnesses" lying.
DeleteHow to deal. Change the subject. Don;t confront just move on. After some time ask another question about what you want to know. Ask it differently than the first time. Path liars embellish. There is a group that is probably incurable. The Malignant Narc/pathological liar. Those with Paranoid Personality Disorder are close to impossible to aid also. Neither of these disorders will trust another enough EVER to get any better. Unless they received constant reinforcement 24 hours a day for years. You can get through to them but you would have to be a sociopath to be able to. Here is why. They are extreme emotional manipulators, sociopaths are immune to this, not so a normal person. I have been able to gain the trust of both these types but find them a bit to repugnant to bother saving. Too much work on one person when in the same time I could aid 100 other people.
Call it triage. Schizophrenics can be helped but you must never approach any of these people in a confrontational manner if you are to aid them. Confrontation sets their defense mechanisms off and they will fall back into their obsessive modes.
I wish I help you more in this Dr. SciFi but this as much art as skill and I would have to write a book on each disorder to fully explain the subtleties of each approach.
The point of 4. is to listen between the lines, read their body language, see where they deceive themselves and find out why. People don't do much of anything without a purpose. For a liar that purpose is to gain and hold your attention. To pour out smoke and mirrors so you will not see their core. You are focusing to much on what they are saying and not on what they are FEELING. Your friend with the Fake War hero syndrome for instance is not a sociopath but farther down the Narc scale.
Here are his levers. He has very low self esteem. He desperately craves for people to view him as an exciting interesting person. He wants their worship and admiration. This also tells me he is in his true heart a coward and has led a boring life. He had at least one control freak parent, he was denied attention and highly criticized as a child. Here is the best way to deal with him.
Don't talk about his "life" talk with him about his feelings. Tell him about something that happened in your life (I bet he tries to monopolize the conversation yes?) tell him how it made you feel. Ask him if he has ever felt like that, ask him why. Reassure him of your friendship. Let him know you would be his friend regardless of anything he ever did. Be sincere in this. It is your way in. Ask him about hobbies. Work around the "made up bits" of his personality and concentrate on revealing the things in him that have real meaning. You already know he is pack of lies, accept this, your mission is to find the core of him that is NOT a lie.
The parts that will be true are, hobbies (does he like toy trains? Dancing?) ask about likes and dislikes, ask about emotions. These are the true bits. If you manage this without coming off as judgmental he will begin to trust you. You want to be able to pick up his "tells" Paths all have tells. A twitch, looking to the left and up, long pause before they speak. Find his and you will know his lies.
PB, I think the question of why good people do bad things is entwined with lying to oneself and others.
DeleteWhat you write here is interesting too. About my ex friend (I haven't seen nor heard from him in awhile) he also lied about his feelings routinely. For instance, a couple of times he broke down crying about 'flashbacks' to places he had never been -- just to draw attention. I could give many other examples of faking emotions -- they were just as fake as everything else... It was part of his extreme emotional manipulation as you say.
It can get to the point that people don't know they are lying anymore, or they are immune to the distinction altogether, even when it comes to their own feelings. For these reasons, am not sure I agree that the core of him is not a lie. I'm not sure I disagree either.
That is also one reason why good people can continue to do bad things -- because they do not see their own lies or do not care.
ps getting back to your point "people are as malleable as clay" -- some are malleable, capable of adaptation or change, and some are not. There is no blanket statement. Even if I exercised and put all i had into it, I'd never be able to do 25 pull-ups, while others can.
DeleteThe unmalleables either have no desire or will to change and/or they are disenfranchised from meaningful connection to other people and I guess to themselves due to their habits and ways of operating.
I also think the question discussed by some others here of whether someone has adapted to circumstances or has 'changed' can be a hard call at times.
Your "friend" does sound like one of the truly hopeless cases. Like I said I usually don't waste time on them. There are so many people who are tired of living that way and actually want to change.
DeleteIn support of your supposition I had a long conversation once with a dude who would keep those wallets we talked about finding, or phones, EVEN if he knew where the owner was. He told he he saw it as God wanting him to have more money. I suggested it was instead God wanting him to do the right thing. He did not want to look at it that way. He had convinced himself that GOD wanted him to steal. I have talked to others with this delusion. They blame God for their own bad behavior and tell themselves that is therefore SAINTLY.
Puppy Basket,
DeleteI loved your analysis.
People do reveal their true feelings by not judging them, and every person has an 'emotional' story, whether or not they realize it.
Even socios sometimes cry. Really cry. Gary Ridgeway, the green river killer who during a police interview once said "I didn't care an iota for any of the women I killed," cried at his sentencing, when a surviving family member of one of his victims said, I forgive you. I believe that Gary was crying for his own lost soul, which his victim's family could see but he himself could not.
Your approach to healing people who suffer from these problems rings true and is profound. You should write a book. :-)
HI PB,
DeleteWow! I do admire the deconstruction of deconstruction - nicely done. JH has a point -
I will add that many Cluster B's have tells too (the true "blackhearts" can be inscrutable - I've known a couple and they really rare exceptions; I am a subscriber of the spectrum perspective).
The biggest tell, of course, is "smelling your own." But if you have any suspicions, they really aren't hard to confirm if true in most cases - it's not like triggering is a taboo...or...is it?... >:->
By the by, I learned to manipulate from my mother (dad was a hack) - that woman was amazing! (not what might be called an ideal parent...).
"Gary Ridgeway, the green river killer who during a police interview once said "I didn't care an iota for any of the women I killed," cried at his sentencing, when a surviving family member of one of his victims said, I forgive you."
DeleteCrocodile tears.
A few mouths ago (or maybe longer) there was a little snippet of
ReplyDeletefilm, a spoul that kept repeating. It is M.E. giving a wink. I don't know how
to call it up, because computers are "Greek" to me, but maybe someone
else does.
Such large hands M.E. has. I'm sure this helps her with her music ability.
But the "Jodi Arias," slightly asiatic look is most impressive. Just the thing
to attract men like necture attracts bees.
Why psychos have such hair trigger-temper? Low self esteem, every imagined slight must "dealt with" to repair the broken, fragile stuff inside..
ReplyDeleteI just got done reading a book titled, "Wanted For Murder, How L.B.J.
ReplyDeletehad J.F.K. Killed," by Roger Stone
I urge everyone who wants to know how a sociopatic politician attains and
welds power to read that book.
Why do "good" people do "bad" things? Because they're scared to death
of the evil sadistic men that weld power, and could erase them like chalk
from a blackboard.
People really want sadistic psychopaths to lead them. To rule over them, to exploit them and to make little bitches out of them.
ReplyDeleteWhy else would they choose these evil, horrid people to rule them. It's the so-called 'goodly empaths' who put them there.
There's no good or evil, there's just dumb-fuckery.
Well that is one way of looking at it but I think you may be jumping to a conclusion that voters/followers know what they want.
DeleteMy hunch is that someone who appears to be a good leader is someone who projects confidence and certainty. People who have a modicum of humility and/or ambivalence about a complex social issue feel great relief she they no longer have to make a decision about what to do.
Sadistic psychopaths do a great job of projecting certainty. Unfortunately, they don't usually deliver on specific promises even if they do continue to provide "strong leadership".
It's a good thing that this kind of idiocy will put an end to itself.
DeleteWhy do sociopaths pretend to do good things.
ReplyDeletepart of the underlying game that is involved in any long con
DeleteMach, I agree with you that is often a prime motivation.
DeleteAnon, are you saying that sociopaths only pretend to do good things -- that they never genuinely do good?
Mmm, I have a slightly different but related take on it. High functioning socios have realized they they have poor social instincts and they make up for it by doing good things to be more likely to be accepted by society. So yes, it is a con, because it is not genuine in the empath way of thinking of it. We berate them because they pretend to care, so in our mind they pretend to do you things, though in reality they actually do do those good things.
DeleteWhat is their alternative? To never do good things? Is that really what society wants? Is it only valid to do good things if you feel good about doing them?
Reposting.. Too many mistakes in the first post.
DeleteMmm, I have a slightly different but related take on it. High functioning socios have realized that they have poor social instincts and they make up for it by doing good things to be more likely to be accepted by society. So yes, it is a con, because it is not genuine in the empath way of thinking of it. We berate them because they pretend to care, so in our mind they pretend to do good things, though in reality they actually DO those good things.
What is their alternative? To never do good things? Is that really what society wants? Is it only valid to do good things if you feel good about doing them?
OldAndWise, I agree with you -- I was referring to the question of 'pretending to do good things' which is often part of a long con, where the end-game is to do bad things, so it really is pretending.
DeleteFrom what I've read, as you say, high functioning socios do good things to be more accepted, to serve a higher power, or for other non-nefarious reasons with no bad endgame in sight. I wouldn't call that pretending to do good things though, although I guess many people would.
I also agree with you about the question "What is their alternative?"
Many philanthropists are corporate psychopaths in disguise.
Deletehttp://t.co/Y5FAWLlq1F
ReplyDeleteM.E. Tweeted the above link a few days ago, saying 7 minutes in, he sounds like a sociopath. What about at 1:14 and 1:44? What the heck is that?
Hi SC -
ReplyDeleteAs a friend of mine was fond of saying, "hey! I resemble that comment!" (...and that was a very long comment indeed...)
Yeah, it's a bit of a mirror that isn't all that flattering, but she's not that far off. I have to give more thought to the NP connection... I'm not 100% of what she describes, but, I do recognize myself in some of her...erm....critiques.
Interesting reading - though, and I do say this with some degree of objectivity: please edit. Whew! :-)
...and, Thanks!
ReplyDeleteI have to add that I laughed out loud when I read that BP males tend to do "better" with BP females (my wife isn't BP, so there was also a bit of cringe in there too). And here "better" really is a relative concept. While the combination can be explosive (which is good and bad ifyouknowwhatimeanandithinkyoudo), the right mix can be quite stable in it's own strange way.
ReplyDeleteA lot in life is pure luck. Being in the right or wrong place at the right
ReplyDeletetime. You never know who fate might bring you in contact with, and the
possibly leathal consequences-for you. It NEVER occurs to a person what
MIGHT happen. That's why the Empath is a sitting duck.
I won't bore you with the fairly well known stories of the Mass. school
teacher who was raped and murdered by one of her students last
October, or the Chesire Conn. "home invaders" that spotted a wealthy
Doctor's wife & daughter and planned a horrible atrocity that they almost
got away with. Hint: The DID commit the atrocity, but they were apprehended fleeing.
No, I want to tell you of an event that happened not far from where I live.
I live in Long Island N.Y. Directly west is Brooklyn N.Y. The closest section
of Brooklyn in an improvished slum. Crime very rarely gets to Long Island
from N.Y.C. though a memorible event was the Long Island Railroad
shooting, a racist black man named Colin Fergerson opened fire on a
killing 6 people. The event I'm refering to happened 10 years previously.
A group of vicious thugs from Brooklyn decided that the surburban folk
would make easy pickin's for robbery and "other" things. Well armed with
rifles the burst into wealthy (from their point of view) homes in the mist
of gatherings. They'd put all the people in one central room and say:
"Anyone who has a gun better give it up! We'll slaughter everyone here!"
They made everyone get on the floor, and they subjected them to various indignities. "You are our slaves! We can do anything we want to
you." They were spat on , kicked, urinated on, and of course the women
were seperated from the men and brutally raped. Soon afterwards, the
commited the atrocity for which they were widely known...
One night they burst into a Diner. It was something like the film
ReplyDelete"Pulp Fiction," but you must remember this were 10 well armed men.
People who were eating there didn't have an inkling about what was to
occur. "Up against the wall! Empty your pockets! Give us all your Jewerly!
Next: "Take off all your clothes and get on the floor!" One person said it
looked like a scene from the Holocast, naked bodies piled on top of
each other.
The matched up couples and told them to have sex. Someone who
stumbled on the scene (And was taken captive) said, "What were these
people doing having sex with one another? Then I realized they were
being forced to do it. Then it was "All bitches get in the other room!"
They were raped for quite some time. Then they departed back to
Brooklyn with the loot. One of their girl friends snapped a photo of them
with piles of cash, brandishing guns above their heads. The picture
appeared in the Newspaper with the caption: "The Very Picture Of
Criminality." They were followed back to Brooklyn and apprehended in a
shootout with police.
They were tried, and sentenced to a grand total of 1,600 years in prison,
but actually served only 14. Some of the victims never recovered.
When a newspaper did an article on the crime and wanted to speak to
the criminals, most refused to be interviewed, execpt one who said:
"I don't know anything about no Long Island. I was just walking down the
street and picked up by the cops."
Hey HL, good morning! :-) I'm borderline myself, so I get it, the article can be somewhat a pill to swallow for sure, but I do like getting a flip side perspective on things -- as to how it affects the partners around them. For me, it's important to hear every angle and perspective. Not one borderline will be affected like another borderline. These were probably numerous women partners writing to this publisher who had heard it all - from every angle possible, so she clumped it all like fabric weaving to get a clearer picture of what these women experience together . I do however see a lot of these traits in some of borderline men I know. Not all of course -- but some. Then you can also get a publisher that would hopefully list all the positive wonderful things of the borderline personality Such a flip sided coin to view things such as these.
ReplyDelete...."And here "better" really is a relative concept. While the combination can be explosive (which is good and bad ifyouknowwhatimeanandithinkyoudo), the right mix can be quite stable in it's own strange way."
Yes, I agree with you on that. My husband is on the aspd spectrum more than a borderline spectrum and we fit like a puzzle. It's learning each other's ways and fine tuning them together, growing into what works - and what doesn't. I'd say he puts my needs ahead of mine - a lot. He's not overly emotional, but takes good care of us. From a logical point of view - he problems solves quite nicely.
What is their alternative? To never do good things?
ReplyDeletebless ya'll hearts.
I finally made enough time to watch the video -
ReplyDeleteMy first thought is to wonder if the persistent feeling of being "different" that so many us have identified is one of the elements that leads to some of our less compassionate behavior? By his reasoning, since we feel different, we would be more likely to engage in "short term reward thinking," which is often regarded as anti-social.
A bit more on my mind, but the spawn are demanding my attention...
The article in the Guardian that ME tweeted yesterday about a commentary by Paul Bloom raises a question about doing good.
ReplyDeleteFirst a quote: "Empathy – the attempt to feel or think how someone else is feeling – isn't a reliable way of doing good' ... Instead of empathy, Bloom concludes, we need compassion: a cooler, more rational, "more distanced love, kindness and concern for others"."
Do socios or some people with BPD experience compassion?
"Do socios or some people with BPD experience compassion?" It's not scientific as far as where I fall, but as I've mentioned elsewhere I would label myself as a tri-path. Some psychopath; some sociopath, and some empathy. So I feel some compassion, but it's kind of dilute. Don't test me out. Neither of us might like the results. How about you?
Delete@Radical Agnostic: what is the difference between psycopath and sociopath that you are working with?
Delete@Pork Difference? Doesn't matter. Difference between being in the woods with a hungry grizzly bear and being in the pool with a hungry great white shark. Depending on your mood and their mood, you either fuck with them or you eat them or they eat you. Read the book of Revelation and meet the killer lamb.
DeleteI am here to give testimony on how i got my wife back ,He is real.?
ReplyDeleteHello to every one out here, am here to share the unexpected miracle that happened to me three days ago, My name is Jeffrey Dowling,i live in Texas,USA.and I`m happily married to a lovely and caring wife,with two kids A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my wife so terrible that she took the case to court for a divorce she said that she never wanted to stay with me again,and that she did not love me anymore So she packed out of my house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get her back,after much begging,but all to no avail and she confirmed it that she has made her decision,and she never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my wife So i explained every thing to her,so she told me that the only way i can get my wife back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for her too So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow her advice. Then she gave me the email address of the spell caster whom she visited.(bravespellcaster@gmail.com}, So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address she gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my wife back the next day what an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my wife who did not call me for the past seven {7}months,gave me a call to inform me that she was coming back So Amazing!! So that was how she came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and she apologized for her mistake,and for the pain she caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, i will advice you out there to kindly visit the same website http://bravespellcaster.yolasite.com,if you are in any condition like this,or you have any problem related to “bringing your ex back. So thanks to Dr Brave for bringing back my wife,and brought great joy to my family once again.{bravespellcaster@gmail.com} , Thanks.
Speaking of color, one of my interests is color psychology. I'm interested in what the people who think of themselves (or others think of them) as socio or psychopathic, what their favorite colors are? If you can't relate to favorite, than what do you tend to be drawn to most? I have some theories about this.
ReplyDelete