This was an interesting comment on an old post (including a lot of traits that many of you will recognize -- but I'm always a little surprised and even a little bit charmed to see them so consistently in so many strangers):
Harvard Student, Wealth Manager, Pursuer of Potential
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I've never publicly shared my ideas on the subject. I won't be proofing this since it's anonymous. I'm sure this comment will be very self-centric, as it will be a break from academic writing. If I offend you, this probably isn't the best thread to cry me a river on so try to enjoy a different perspective.
So I’ve been told that I am compartmental, principled sociopath, extremely objective, a/o very manipulative. In short, I began a career in financial services, study at Harvard, am in a 5+ year relationship and I've never truly confided in anyone.
It seems the only thing I genuinely recognize as off limits is targeting innocence. Since I was in grade school I would prey on bullies or tough/popular/show-off classmates because I viewed them as being game to compete against others; especially if they unjustly picked on others. Innocence though, goes for most children, naïve house pets, and highly sheltered adolescence/adults. In these cases, I view the subjects/people as defenseless or helpless. I've been viewed as empathetic by my family because at a young age I learned how to read emotions/truth/lie from other people so as to emulate them when I went to "sell," something. This was not crying when I didn't get a desired toy/candy rather, stealing it next time without mention to not raise suspicion or to barter with my mom. I found success at 8 years of age by borrowing a rake, shovel, or lawn mower and going door to door. I had all the toys/candy I wanted by half ass-ing child labor to charge $25. I simply made a poster for a fund raiser and taped it to my mower. I even got called out when parents didn't like that their kids did the mowing for me and took home $7 while I kept the difference. When confronted, I simply told them that they ensured their kid wouldn’t work with me again.
My principles have been established over the years. I realized I needed them when I was in kindergarten. I hung out with high school kids in my neighborhood in exchange for doing things that they needed. This included being the one to get hoisted in to windows to unlock a house from the inside or start fights with other kids when there was a stupid dispute. The worst thing I remember doing was defending my "friends" from another kids' large dog using the chain from my bike. It was at this point when I decided that I would use principles to decide what is "right." For the most part, risk and reward are the biggest drivers. It doesn't matter what it is or at least I haven't met a decision that's made me feel uncomfortable. Is my risk being matched with equal or greater reward? If not than no-go, no matter what. I do, however, enjoy a hero or even god complex. I've saved a person from drowning, dodged a car accident only to pull off and rescue them from a flaming car (which did NOT explode...). I enjoy holding the high level of importance to one's life and then giving it to them so that they feel fortunate. I suppose a sociopath who saves people isn't unheard of, but I'm in no rush to save starving kids from labor in under developed countries. In my opinion, under waged child laborers in those countries are turning a buck for their family as opposed to competing with the other children begging on the streets. In my belief, there is a choice and while companies could give more money to the labor, I know I would choose the most effective option. Until the customer demands it and it becomes as important as the fabric used to make the shirt, then the company should be as lean as possible. (off-topic)
I've come a long since I was in grade school.
I've been in a relationship now for 5+ years and I haven't had any tendency to harm anyone since I was younger. Back then I never went further than breaking an arm or hand in a brawl or fight along side my friends. The rush was good but part of me looks forward to me finding a legal outlet to get a better rush. Growing up, I've experimented with guys and girls sexually and I could honestly go for either. It's really just about the fun of learning how each other tick and triggering that tick. I decided to stick with females for a couple reasons. It's been easier to blend in with a woman, and my fiancé pushes me to do more. Also, I enjoy aiding the damsel in distress act. What's curious to me is while I've never cared about actually helping others, I find enjoyment in taking on that "helping" role in the relationship. Also, I find that I've never truly confided in anyone. This goes for significant others, family, and friends alike. People who know me, know a certain version of me that I've created to best suit my circumstances and appear like a hero or champion. Mentors have identified this characteristic as being my most valuable trait because it will be most useful to me becoming successful professionally as well as managing the personal issues.
Recently, I've relocated away from friends and family to follow this girl (5+ years) and it's starting to be recognized that I don't keep up communication with anyone. Simply, it's been a relief to not have to be close to these people and have to keep up with what's making them tick. While I recognize that it's been hard for some of those people, I have no urge to change what's been going on. Often times, when my fiancé and I run in to a rough patch I wonder what I would do should we ever break it off. When I met her, I was in the process of opening a bail bonds business so that I could essentially have a license to hunt the ultimate prey when they jump bail. I didn't have a desire to hurt people, but I have always enjoyed the hunt. I think many people share this urge.
While I've never been religious, my family is Christian/Catholic. As a teen, I opened up to a family friend, and he gave me a copy of "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill. I highly recommend it to anyone deciding or refining the principles by which they live their life. This book along with the study of different religions has taught me the power of prayer, habit, attitude, and how to obsess over something to make it happen. This is truly the only use of religion in my opinion. That is, furthering your potential through belief in something bigger than one's self. I am now completing my Bachelor's through Harvard and work in wealth management. Both things that I don't think I would have done without principles and setting goals to align with a woman from a "comfortable style of living." For me, it's since been all about furthering my potential and soon raising a child which will challenge my success. These thoughts and ideas have me puzzled. I live a life which has ALWAYS been positive and "glad." I refuse to let anything get me down, though I fake being bothered to those around me show that I care about something, as it seems that's what's needed to show caring... (makes no sense, and I think it's a stupid way to be...) But what I do seem to care about, even from a kid was one day reaching a point where I've dramatically climbed the socio-economic ladder (increased my class), and having a child (son or daughter) who challenges my success through their own (almost like a worthy adversary). A fantasy of mine would be to meet an exact twin of mine and square off.
I'm interested in seeing if anyone else shares my views or wishes to challenge them. I'd also be interested in thoughts or replies which challenge my values.
Harvard Student, Wealth Manager, Pursuer of Potential
Parameters for this comment:
I've never publicly shared my ideas on the subject. I won't be proofing this since it's anonymous. I'm sure this comment will be very self-centric, as it will be a break from academic writing. If I offend you, this probably isn't the best thread to cry me a river on so try to enjoy a different perspective.
So I’ve been told that I am compartmental, principled sociopath, extremely objective, a/o very manipulative. In short, I began a career in financial services, study at Harvard, am in a 5+ year relationship and I've never truly confided in anyone.
It seems the only thing I genuinely recognize as off limits is targeting innocence. Since I was in grade school I would prey on bullies or tough/popular/show-off classmates because I viewed them as being game to compete against others; especially if they unjustly picked on others. Innocence though, goes for most children, naïve house pets, and highly sheltered adolescence/adults. In these cases, I view the subjects/people as defenseless or helpless. I've been viewed as empathetic by my family because at a young age I learned how to read emotions/truth/lie from other people so as to emulate them when I went to "sell," something. This was not crying when I didn't get a desired toy/candy rather, stealing it next time without mention to not raise suspicion or to barter with my mom. I found success at 8 years of age by borrowing a rake, shovel, or lawn mower and going door to door. I had all the toys/candy I wanted by half ass-ing child labor to charge $25. I simply made a poster for a fund raiser and taped it to my mower. I even got called out when parents didn't like that their kids did the mowing for me and took home $7 while I kept the difference. When confronted, I simply told them that they ensured their kid wouldn’t work with me again.
My principles have been established over the years. I realized I needed them when I was in kindergarten. I hung out with high school kids in my neighborhood in exchange for doing things that they needed. This included being the one to get hoisted in to windows to unlock a house from the inside or start fights with other kids when there was a stupid dispute. The worst thing I remember doing was defending my "friends" from another kids' large dog using the chain from my bike. It was at this point when I decided that I would use principles to decide what is "right." For the most part, risk and reward are the biggest drivers. It doesn't matter what it is or at least I haven't met a decision that's made me feel uncomfortable. Is my risk being matched with equal or greater reward? If not than no-go, no matter what. I do, however, enjoy a hero or even god complex. I've saved a person from drowning, dodged a car accident only to pull off and rescue them from a flaming car (which did NOT explode...). I enjoy holding the high level of importance to one's life and then giving it to them so that they feel fortunate. I suppose a sociopath who saves people isn't unheard of, but I'm in no rush to save starving kids from labor in under developed countries. In my opinion, under waged child laborers in those countries are turning a buck for their family as opposed to competing with the other children begging on the streets. In my belief, there is a choice and while companies could give more money to the labor, I know I would choose the most effective option. Until the customer demands it and it becomes as important as the fabric used to make the shirt, then the company should be as lean as possible. (off-topic)
I've come a long since I was in grade school.
I've been in a relationship now for 5+ years and I haven't had any tendency to harm anyone since I was younger. Back then I never went further than breaking an arm or hand in a brawl or fight along side my friends. The rush was good but part of me looks forward to me finding a legal outlet to get a better rush. Growing up, I've experimented with guys and girls sexually and I could honestly go for either. It's really just about the fun of learning how each other tick and triggering that tick. I decided to stick with females for a couple reasons. It's been easier to blend in with a woman, and my fiancé pushes me to do more. Also, I enjoy aiding the damsel in distress act. What's curious to me is while I've never cared about actually helping others, I find enjoyment in taking on that "helping" role in the relationship. Also, I find that I've never truly confided in anyone. This goes for significant others, family, and friends alike. People who know me, know a certain version of me that I've created to best suit my circumstances and appear like a hero or champion. Mentors have identified this characteristic as being my most valuable trait because it will be most useful to me becoming successful professionally as well as managing the personal issues.
Recently, I've relocated away from friends and family to follow this girl (5+ years) and it's starting to be recognized that I don't keep up communication with anyone. Simply, it's been a relief to not have to be close to these people and have to keep up with what's making them tick. While I recognize that it's been hard for some of those people, I have no urge to change what's been going on. Often times, when my fiancé and I run in to a rough patch I wonder what I would do should we ever break it off. When I met her, I was in the process of opening a bail bonds business so that I could essentially have a license to hunt the ultimate prey when they jump bail. I didn't have a desire to hurt people, but I have always enjoyed the hunt. I think many people share this urge.
While I've never been religious, my family is Christian/Catholic. As a teen, I opened up to a family friend, and he gave me a copy of "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill. I highly recommend it to anyone deciding or refining the principles by which they live their life. This book along with the study of different religions has taught me the power of prayer, habit, attitude, and how to obsess over something to make it happen. This is truly the only use of religion in my opinion. That is, furthering your potential through belief in something bigger than one's self. I am now completing my Bachelor's through Harvard and work in wealth management. Both things that I don't think I would have done without principles and setting goals to align with a woman from a "comfortable style of living." For me, it's since been all about furthering my potential and soon raising a child which will challenge my success. These thoughts and ideas have me puzzled. I live a life which has ALWAYS been positive and "glad." I refuse to let anything get me down, though I fake being bothered to those around me show that I care about something, as it seems that's what's needed to show caring... (makes no sense, and I think it's a stupid way to be...) But what I do seem to care about, even from a kid was one day reaching a point where I've dramatically climbed the socio-economic ladder (increased my class), and having a child (son or daughter) who challenges my success through their own (almost like a worthy adversary). A fantasy of mine would be to meet an exact twin of mine and square off.
I'm interested in seeing if anyone else shares my views or wishes to challenge them. I'd also be interested in thoughts or replies which challenge my values.
Why do so many people feel the need to post their life story on this blog.
ReplyDeleteSociopaths don't get to tell others their story. they have a need for understanding and perhaps admiration.
Deleteeg my friends and I like to talk about our moral failures. we're proud of how we've brutally handled our enemies, escaped punishment for crimes, had multiple sex partners visiting us in the same day (minutes apart), murdered our neighbors' pesky pets, etc. you can't normally talk about that stuff and get acceptance; you typically get disgust and ostracization.
it is a bit like snipers. if they talk about their job non-snipers get creeped out. of course, snipers skew psychopathic.
Im not creeped by these crap stories, im bored.
Delete@12:18
DeleteYou're a fucking idiot.
The point is that no one gives a fuck.
"murdered our neighbors' pesky pets," boy I bet animal rights extremists would just have a field day with you :):):)
Deleteanon at 1:50, who wrote, You're a fucking idiot. The point is that no one gives a fuck." - why express the intense dislike and hatred? What would you have rather read today?
Deleteand ok, so you don't like the post, why comment on it?
> "you can't normally talk about that stuff and get acceptance; you typically get disgust and ostracization."
DeleteWe (normal empaths) are just pretending to be outraged to look good by using "criminals" as scapegoats. No one really cares except the people directly involved. Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed by your lack of awareness, I expected more from a sociopath.
^
Delete^
I'm not the same anonymous.
Charming!
ReplyDeleteI just hope he stays away from the drugs and alcohol, because the development of selfish greed will get a sociopath doing fucked up things. Once you get on that hedonic treadmill, you're screwed.
I'm a person who has always related at arm's lengeth from others. I think
ReplyDeleteI known GENERALLY what motivates others, which only makes me want to
keep further away from others: Egotism, greed, influence, (power) wealth and sex urge.
Because of my subpar past, physical appearence, and lack of social skills,
I am regarded as "trash" (The kindest word I have ever been called) by both
empath and sociopath alike. So I can only observe human interactions from a
distance. This is a rather empty and purgatory like state. When a person DOES
attract my interest for whatever reason, (Usually an attractive female. 56 years
IS a long time to go without.) I cobble whatever information I can about them.
This is like a "fan/star relationship." To my mind, only a stark raving mad "fan"
actually believes a "star" would give them the time of day. Heck, even a "normal" person would give me the time of day.
Anyhow, I cobble whatever paultry amount of information I can find about my
"study target." (That's all they are to me, and all they could ever be.)
Obviously, from what little we've seen, M.E. would be an above average looking
person. She has MANY positive traits and inspite of her "embellishments," I
think she'd be a very good "catch" for a reasonablly compatablie person., i.e.,
age, appearence, earnings potential, personality etc... And obviously, he must
NEVER bore her. He also must be reasonablly free of Phobias, and "hang-ups."
He must "fit" her, like a glove fits a hand. I'm sure such a person DOES exist,
but the amount of such people is RAPIDLY dwindling. We are a nurotic nation,
fast becoming a sociopathic nation. "The Culture Of Narcassism."
Economic and cultural pressures. Drugs. Disinformation. Poor diet.
Competetion etc...
What I'm REALLY saying is: I've been able to put together a REASONABLE
profile of M.E. with a VERY SMALL amount of information. Of course, I don't
know how much she's told us is the WHOLE truth, but I DO believe her agenda
lies beyond sheer self agrandisement. I need the "help" of more "worldly" folks
like you. You have had social interaction, so you are much more aware of what
makes others "tick." I call upon your expertise. It doesn't hurt to ask. If you
make a sardonic joke about it and give me the brush off, the time is all I've lost.
What, in your "sociopathic speculation," is M.E. doing NOW?
Are lie-detectors useless against sociopaths? Can a socio just waffle lies to the machine & come out as mr Clean?
ReplyDelete> Are lie-detectors useless against sociopaths?
DeleteThey're useless against everyone really.
> Can a socio just waffle lies to the machine & come out as mr Clean?
Being a sociopath doesn't mean you have superpowers.
No, most peoples bodies react when telling lies. Socios are said to be "cold fish" when it comes to lying, this is supposedly not much different from telling the truth to them. Gulit & shame never gets activated?
DeleteDo you love your fiance?
DeleteHave you ever hurt her, and how does it make you feel?
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/01/theres-more-to-life-than-being-happy/266805/ is an article you may be interested in if my observations about boredom ring true for you.
ReplyDeleteI think you may be a narcissist more than you are a sociopath. Why?
ReplyDelete#1- your seeking of feedback
#2- your insistence that you don't target innocents (in the abstract, this works, but narcissists can be very good at self justifying why the victim "made them do it" and therefore deserved what they got)
#3- your name dropping of Harvard
Your lack of emotional connections other than your fiancé' suggests self absorption but is not terribly atypical for a high achieving young male who is on a career path that would place him within the upper class (or upper middle class). This is the sort of narcissistic stuff that many men outgrow when they become fathers.
You don't come off as being terribly sadistic. My guess is that you don't have a ton of buried rage/frustration because your high intelligence has allowed you to manipulate others to give you what you want. So that's why your behavior isn't particularly antisocial.
The one thing that did seem somewhat sociopathic is that you seem bored. By that I mean you seem to be successfully negotiating a world where others are interchangeable but not terribly interesting to you.
The way to escape that emptiness is to try to find people/experiences that are not interchangeable. Young people who work hard to be successful tend to operate with a false self that helps them get ahead in the professional world. But these professional personas are very boring. Your life probably forces you to interact with people who never move beyond that professional persona so you are dealing with a lot of one dimensional entities. It's hard to feel much of anything around people who behave like that. It's like your entire life is one shade of vanilla. For an intelligent person that must get old.
If the boredom becomes overwhelming I suggest exploring "unprofessional" avenues that have to do with creativity. You didn't share your aesthetic preferences but perhaps taking the time to discover if you like some forms of art more than others then that is your first clue about liking something more unique. Finding other people who happen to share your affection for a particular flavor will help you engage on a deeper level.
MachE, I like what your wrote. You are very thoughtful, insightful.
DeleteJune
Thanks, June
DeleteI love this site. I try to stay away, but it’s too addictive. I’ve added it to my list of weird things I like; Clockwork Orange, Tim Burton movies, Loved to Death shop in San Francisco, Sociopathworld…..I love that no one yells at you for going off topic. I make random comments all the time, and people get mad. They say I never stay on topic on social networking sites. Yawn, boring. All these dumb ass social rules. Rules schmules I say…
ReplyDeleteHi Doctor G, I'm glad you're hooked. I think I've read more interesting perspectives here than anywhere else on the web in years. The "honesty" of socios on this site reflects a certain "evil" charm, a receptiveness to the darkness that lives in the hearts of all humans, I believe, which is not to say I foster that; But I do believe that socios suffer in their own way, just like everyone else; they just hide it better from others and probably often from themselves. Because to admit to feeling pain makes a person feel weak, which I imagine is intolerable to most socios.
DeleteThe outside world is full of lies and manipulation dressed up in Newspeak. Here at least, malicious thoughts and selfish motivations are stated in the open.
"my list of weird things I like; Clockwork Orange, Tim Burton movies"
Bjork? Under the Skin? Killing them Softly?
June
ditto :)
Deletepostscript on ditto: its a perspective that is cloaked irl. some pretenders here no doubt, but less of that boring one up manship. people are so profoundly different. never realized this before...
DeleteDocSF, I think you're right about this site showing just how different people really are. It's been enlightening to read what "cold" humans think and experience. Great stuff for building characters in the sci-fi world I'm working on. After many years, I'm re-reading Camus' "The Fall." Published in 1956, the judge-penitent narrator in the story is an excellent portrait of a charming, intelligent socio.
DeleteJune
I imagine I exist. I imagine you exist, though it is more difficult than imagining I exist. If I become bored with you, will you cease to exist? I am 70 years old. One of these days, I will die. When I die, will you cease to exist? Will the entire universe cease to exist?
ReplyDeletePerhaps all of you should be very nice to me; take care of me, and ensure I continue to exist. Perhaps you should pray for me or to me.
Oh, oh. I in the wrong place, am I not? What an idiot!!!!!!
It's not so hard to understand why people who have kept their inner life hidden, or rarely if ever confided in another person, would write part of their life story to ME. I read this as an articulation of a young man who views life as a sequence of challenges to prove his own self-worth compared to others.
ReplyDelete"and having a child (son or daughter) who challenges my success through their own (almost like a worthy adversary). A fantasy of mine would be to meet an exact twin of mine and square off."
Valuing in himself behavior that protects the weak and innocent from an early age (whether his behavior is consistent with that doesn't actually matter -- I am talking about self-esteem) does not seem to be compatible with the development of a would-be amoral sociopath.
"It seems the only thing I genuinely recognize as off limits is targeting innocence."
About recently relocating to be with his fiance, completing a degree through Harvard and working in wealth management -- is that night school at Harvard and full time work, part time work in that field seems unlikely, or maybe an online degree. Lots of people who go to Harvard will mention it quite frequently. It's part of the milleau.
I don't see a sociopath here. Emotionally detached and preoccupied with self worth, looks more narcissistic than anything else.
It should be like baskin robbins-31 flavors of sociopathy.
DeleteI was thinking more like sorbet.
DeleteDr SciFi-
Deleteexactly :)
Mach, "This is the sort of narcissistic stuff that many men outgrow when they become fathers." so let's say nutty flavoured gelato, or fruity flavoured sorbet.
DeleteI don't see any 'pathy' or disfunction in his social milleau. His fantasies are unusual and intensely narcissistic, but most people don't actually write out their fantasies either...
On the other hand I didn't see a description of his feelings or lack of them for his fiancee or her feelings for him. That's often where the 'pathy' is most clear.
Like I said- I see more narcissism than evidence of sociopathy. only red flag is boredom.
DeleteI think it's likely this individual attends the extension school which does not require getting into Harvard. It's like community college. The people who seem most eager to tell everyone they go to Harvard tend to take this route. Given the background of this individual, it's hard to believe that the social support necessary to get into Harvard would be in place. A caveat: the extension school is often a good way for disadvantaged students to gain credibility to matriculate for real, but still must be recognized as something different than going to Harvard. (not a criticism of this individual because I actually find students who take this route to regular admissions to be remarkable people)
DeleteOne other curious note- "wealth management" is an odd designation for someone who has not received their academic credentials. Financial services tends to be the catch all phrase for the young guns as "wealth management" tends to be associated more with private equity clients serviced by very senior (age and position) financial services executives who have a proven track record of success.
That said, the writer may be deliberately awkward in his terminology/self description to throw off anyone who knows him within the financial services community. (Boston financial services is a very insular community) If that is the case, I salute him ;)
Mach, the atlantic article you posted above was a good read. By 'pathy' I meant pathological narcissism or NPD. It looks more like regular vanilla flavor sorbet. Hiding one's identity would not be all that consistent with naming a school and a profession. It could all be made up.
Deletethat's to distinguish narcissism from pathological narcissism. They are quite different. I've also got the notion that NPDs rather fancy themselves sometimes to be sociopaths. Some make their grand entrances and exits here...
DeleteIt's possible I might have been baiting the author to confirm or deny my assertations so we would have more information to go on. Not just in terms of facts, but the manner of response my probing arouses
DeletePs this is Mach but I don't feel like logging into this device
Delete""and having a child (son or daughter) who challenges my success through their own (almost like a worthy adversary). A fantasy of mine would be to meet an exact twin of mine and square off."
ReplyDeleteI suggest the reader watch the scene in Being John Malkovich where John, having gone down the rabbit hole, meets countless projections of himself in a restaurant to see where this sort of self-love leads.
When I get overwhelmed by the sociopath and hysterical narcissist at my place of work, I find that visiting this website helps me find some distraction. They are very distracting. I hope the narciopath who wrote this has a whole family of youngsters who can entertain him and challenge him in ways he can only imagine now. Hope he makes lots of money, too! Lawyers are expensive! Won't they have fun?
ReplyDeleteWonder how many people on this site would dare to visit "genuine articles" in prison without all the guard pampering routines, if such "prove you are what you say you are" activities somehow were given green light by authorities?
ReplyDeleteThats really a great script for a horror movie: "tough" people finding a website for psychopaths and talking lots of ballsy crap, only to discover that the "membership" includes various forms of tests, directed by folks with beady stares? tagline on movie-poster: "NOT SO TOUGH NOW, EH..?"
ReplyDeleteWelcome to the new age. We're radio active.
DeleteI don't think I am supposed to be here. How do I get out? I just want to visit for a little while. Now the door seems to be locked, and I really don't think I like the expressions on everyone else's faces. Come on, unlock the door, and I promise not to tell anybody about you guys and your plot to take over the world and make everyone slaves.
DeleteI think quite a few of us non sociopath are on this site because we have had to deal or are still dealing with a sociopath in our real life. Not because we think of ourselves as tough. I certainly don't think of myself as tough in the way you mean it. I am here to learn and understand better, answer questions from my perspective, share ideas, hopefully help. You seem to forget that not all sociopaths are jailed and that some of them function relatively well in society, but can still be very difficult to deal with if they target you. Knowing about sociopathy helps you be more detached from the attacks and deal with them in a different way. Dealing with attacks from a sociopath in an emotional way is a recipe for disaster. This is the way he will "win" his game, it is after all nothing but a game to him: by triggering your emotions, good or bad... or I should say good AND bad, back and forth, until you loose your control.
DeleteDo I think I could reason with a jailed psychopath? Not a chance. But perhaps some of the high functioning sociopaths here could. And maybe that is a way we could explore as a society to try and alleviate the damage that lower functioning sociopaths inflict on society. Enlist the high functioning sociopaths help. They would understand better their thought process. Perhaps it is too late to reintegrate psychopaths into society by the time they have been to jail, but there may be ways, one individual at a time, to prevent some of them going to jail in the first place.
amen, Old and Wise. I second all of what you say here.
Delete