I liked this quote from Ender's Game:
In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them –"
"You beat them." For a moment she was not afraid of his understanding.
"No, you don't understand. I destroy them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don't exist."
In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them –"
"You beat them." For a moment she was not afraid of his understanding.
"No, you don't understand. I destroy them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don't exist."
Which one of them is the sociopath? lol
ReplyDeleteNeither. Peter is the sociopath.
DeleteThanks, they all sound sociopathic if you ask me!! ha!
Deletegood question morbid.
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame that M.E. has thus far been unable to establish a connection
ReplyDeletewith another high profile sociopath. Think how interesting that would be!
There is only ONE person on the public scene that merits M.E.'s attention, and
only one person that M.E. could make a powerful and lasting impression on.
Someone that M.E. could actually "OWN" if she desired to. Who could that be?
Well, it is NOT Jodi Arias. Jodi is going away for a long time. Even if M.E. visited her, not much could come of the relationship. No. There is only one
nationally know sociopath that M.E. could relate to and have a fantastically
powerful infulence on her life: Casey Anthony!
Casey presently lives in Florida with a couple of "roommates." She is financially
supported by a few male admirers and her attorney. Her life is in limbo because
of lawsuits directed at her. It's dragging and dragging. Casey DOES get out on
occasion. She has been spotted in stores and eateries. If and when the lawsuits
are resolved, she will be free to leave the state.
Now just imagine this: M.E. establishes subtle contact with Casey. Casey is
likely unaware of who M.E. is. M.E. works herself into Casey's confidence.
Once M.E. reveals herself, Casey sees that she has a kindred spirit. They
become friends, and with M.E.'s "skills" and Casey's lonlieness, maybe MORE
then "friends." It could easily be that M.E. could OWN K.C. M.E. could be
Casey's lifeline. Each could help the other, though Casey is likely to get very
jealous and possieve once she get's the M.E. "treatment."
It's a good idea all around. M.E. gets to mentor, and Casey gets freedom from
the trap she's in.
I know that deep inside M.E. is a kind soul. So I am thanking her in advance for
the mission she is soon to undertake.
Jeffrey? Jeffrey? Where are you Jeffrey? Kuklinski? Anyone?!?
DeleteJesse James (Sandra Bullock's ex), just visit his garage and pretend she wants a bike... she might need a few tattoos for this undermask operation .. lol
DeleteAnon at 3:42
DeleteI saw some older posts and there is definitely someone too obsessed with Casey Anthony. I believe that YOU are Casey Anthony (or at least you're directly involved in her case).
Wow, ME. This is so close to my own experience. The love, the deep understanding, and the fact that my sociopath friend (my enemy) can't hurt me again. The fear is gone as well.
ReplyDeleteSo there are people who have an understanding of this. I so feel alone sometimes, finding it impossible to explain.
I have no intention of ever attempting to destroy him, though. Quite the opposite. I am actually protective of my sociopath friend in the best way that I can. This means attempting to protect him from himself and protect other people from him as well, so that he is not despised. I would like for him to learn from me as much as I learned from him. Not sure that will happen.
Well said. O&W. I have no intention in hurting them as well. Why would I want to retaliate. The play is often fun, but never to hurt somebody. There's too much of that in this world.
DeleteO&W: "the fact that my sociopath friend (my enemy) can't hurt me again"... how did you arrive at this position?
DeleteAs a followup, speaking personally, I think that the belief that another can't (or alternatively won't) hurt oneself is coloured by self-awareness, inexplicably sometimes.
DeleteIn my case, if I believed that a sociopath who had hurt me before, can't hurt me now (unless I had no contact for instance), I'd take that as a sign of denial on my part -- that I was being lulled into a false sense of security, which would make the situation even more dangerous than before.
Anon@9:07, thanks for the references. I found this article on happiness and meaning also interesting:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/01/theres-more-to-life-than-being-happy/266805/
OldAndWise, check this out:
DeleteStockholm Syndrome
Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness. The FBI's Hostage Barricade Database System shows that roughly 8% of victims show evidence of Stockholm syndrome.
Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
Dr Scifi, OTPS, thank you for watching out for me.
DeleteAs I said previously, I feel it is not possible to explain, not in a few words anyway. The words always get twisted. People attempt to pathologize this weird relationship I have with my sociopath friend. It probably should be pathologized because it is after all not a normal relationship.
If you look back at older posts, particularly aug4 and aug21 of this year, there are many names that have been associated with it on this blog, and i have put some thought into everyone of those. I have thought of the Stockholm syndrome. There are some elements of it in this relationship, much more so in the past than now. Me being a masochist. Some element of that as well. A co dependent. Also some truth. But though I am hyper aware and certainly not complacent about the relationship, I am also not fearful, not anymore. It is now much more difficult or next to impossible for him to hurt me with his words, because I understand myself better (ironically thanks to him), and I know when he is trying to do it. It actually amuses me (ok, masochist here!) It only hurts me as much as sarcasm does. The plus side of this is that I get to learn more about myself.
Though I felt the relationship was unhealthy for a long time, which I mentioned severs times to him in the past, it has now evolved. I have a much deeper understanding of myself: Dr scifi, you are right. In my opinion also, self awareness is key to being able to sustain a relatively healthy relationship with a sociopath. I also have a much deeper understanding of my friend's thought process, which is also key. This web site helped me, particularly Tii and Puppy Basket. Another key is understanding his relationships with others and your own relationships with others. The sociopath will always try to isolate you. This is how he controls you best. He will put doubts into your mind about how people feel about you. He will talk to other people about you and put doubts in their mind. You cannot let that happen. You have to work on your other relationships. I am careful not to ostracize him, though I would currently have enough support to do that, but I am much more careful about not ostracizing myself. When it comes to him, I have to think a bit like a sociopath, I guess.
This is very difficult to explain. I do not hate him. If I did, he would have power over me. I like him. He knows I do, he also knows I know he does not like me in the same way people usually like each other. We are useful to each other. I find him extremely interesting. He is smart. He pushes me outside of my comfort zone. He helped me grow. I have no emotional trust in him whatsoever. But he has shown me time and again that he will do pretty much anything I ask if I explain to him why i need it and it makes sense to him. So I trust him intellectually. This will be the case until he does something so wrong that I will be unable to forgive. I hope that won't happen, but if it does, I will be sad, mad, but not shattered. My eyes are wide open. Am I making any sense?
... It probably should be pathologized because it is after all not a normal relationship... but not in terms of victim and victimizer.
DeleteO&W, perhaps you misunderstood me. I was not pathologizing your relationship. What I said is that if I believed it was a "fact" that a sociopath who had hurt me before could not hurt me again, which is what you wrote, then I would be in denial. Denial is not a pathology. It is part of what all humans do to one degree or another. It's not the existence or lack of it that I was writing about, but this certain fact you write about -- that he can't hurt you.
DeleteO&W, also, don't take this wrong, but I am not watching out for you. I mean, you are O&W and I am neither...
DeleteI also experienced this deep fascination with an NPD man with sociopathic traits. I think encounters between 'normals' and those with PD have certain special qualities for the non that are not pathological. There's this tendency to overtranscribe the pathology of the person with a PD onto the other person...
I also don't think anyone can be talked out of a relationship they are committed to by other people on the internet. I think this plays out in unfortunate ways on the help forums for victims.
I am talking about victims of abuse -- where one person has the attitudes of control and entitlement that they allow themselves the right to hurt the other person and continue to do so. This is a 'thing' in its own right, independent of the psychopathologies that may or may not be involved
OK, Dr sci-fi, you are not watching out for me, but you make me think. This is why I like this site. When you mentioned denial, I thought you meant that I possibly was in denial about thinking my friend cannot hurt me again.
DeleteI do not believe I am in denial. Again, difficult to explain, but the relationship with him has become more intellectual than in the past. I understand both myself and him better. I don't expect any emotional connection from him. I told him that much. I am comfortable within myself for the time being, and I do not feel the need to remove him from my life, or remove myself from his.
I very much liked what you said: " There's this tendency to overtranscribe the pathology of the person with a PD onto the other person..." ... so true.
O&W, I don't know why you get so much flak on this site about what you write about your relationship. Do you?
DeleteYour words get me to think sometimes too. It's refreshing to have a variety of different perspectives -- drawn through a strong filter.
It strikes me that your belief in the fact that he cannot hurt you, as he has done in the past, is important to you for perhaps a variety of different reasons.
"Men seek but one thing in life--their pleasure."
ReplyDeleteW. Somerset Maugham
-Dealing with Those Who Hurt Others
by Stewart Blackburn
http://www.huna.org/html/dealingothers.html
Speaking as someone who almost lived in a Los Angeles public library starting at age six or so (we are talking 1950 or so – almost ancient history now) and escaped psychologically into science fiction (kind of a substitute for religion for people such as me who don't believe in religion – the Bible, Koran, Upanishads, Sutras, etc. being the “science fiction” of several thousands of years ago – at least to an atheist such as I), now in 2014 (when I am 70 years old) we are living in the “future” which is now our “now.”
ReplyDeleteRecently I watched a video of Elon Musk – who is sort of the Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, of the current generation – being interviewed. Someone in the audience asked him about artificial intelligence, a “data processing” “advancement” perhaps now in reach in our current century. Humans have not yet “created biological life” – organisms that sustain themselves and pass on their genes – but we are on the verge of creating organisms that are self aware and can “pass as human” without being identified as a non-human being. (In fact, a program calling itself Eugene Goostman, and identifying itself as a 13-year-old-boy did in fact pass the Turing Test.) Elon Musk, a very intelligent and sophisticated geek, got what looked to me as a “deep in the headlights” expression on his face and said,
"With artificial intelligence we are summoning the demon," he said. "In all those stories where there's the guy with the pentagram and the holy water, it's like yeah he's sure he can control the demon. Didn't work out."
In terms of sociopath personalities who need to battle and hurt and destroy . . .
"No, you don't understand. I destroy them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don't exist."
Suppose we could create androids with artificial intelligence who would become “game pieces” for sociopaths who need to battle and destroy. Carefully programmed to meet the needs of predatory sociopaths, but, of course, in the end, lose, letting the sociopath meet his or her needs without hurting human beings.
Of course, what if we created a sociopath AI, REALLY, REALLY without the slightest trace of empathy, and then it decided (for whatever reason – AI boredom or curiosity? – to battle and destroy human beings?
Just saying.
I meant to say "DEER"in the headlights (and I have run down two deer on the island where I live) not "deep" in the headlights. Though maybe that works as well. And I am not a robot. But I can't prove that. Even a dumb robot can probably pass the captcha test, no?
DeleteSee also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project
DeleteI'm kinda wondering what the remake will be like - crap, most likely, but...
Your boobies are my friend. So cozey. No enemy. No.no.no.
ReplyDelete:p
Did anyone see Bronson? luv that movie..
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Wv6nm1Qvw
Did anyone see The Woman Who Wasn't There, and think she was a socio? http://www.bookreporter.com/reviews/the-woman-who-wasnt-there-the-true-story-of-an-incredible-deception
ReplyDeleteYr VeRy sexy. Eat me alive. R u there. I don't know if I'm here.
DeleteLike Jeffrey Dahmer styles?
DeleteNo.no honey, no kill me. Love me. I mean love me up. Who'd you play with if I wasn't there?
DeleteI have no one to pway wif :( I've been really bored lately. Glad ur here! :D
DeleteAwe, my honey bunny. Would you show me a peekaboo with yr titties and maybe I can give you sum money. Yr my favourites. :D
DeleteOpps I read it wrong. I thought it said. I can't pay wifi, lol
DeleteYr fellow man gives his regards? Hats off. I think he kinda misses u. ;)
Kidding about the boobs, but hell you gotta real nice set on you.
Isn't it funny how guys can get away with saying stuff like that, but if a girl says, mmm yea, look at the balls on that one! Oh, look at how that nut sack hangs...Ima git me summa dat! :D
DeleteSo true. So true doc.:) you doing ok?
DeleteI was just thinking as I drove one of my son's to his friends tonight, " why do we call girls sluts; and men we really don't. Sometimes I wish I was a man. How it feels to have a cock. Seriously, I tell my partner all the time, how does it feel when you blow that hose of yours. God I wish I could feel inside a girl with a cock I tell him. He's kinda lucky. Hahaha
But I can't just tell that to anybody, roll eyes*. And a look if disgust.
I just sat on my balls - does that make me hot? (over my shoulder, "hey Ma! Daddy's got some wiggles to get out!!! *grin*)
DeleteYou crack me up Dr. G!
Happy weekend!
Let's all have a tea party. All get my finest china out and make you all some biscuits. My friends. My friends. Love thy enemy!
ReplyDelete"In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him,..."
ReplyDeleteAnyone, man or woman, who is attracted to a sociopath can easily undo the fake charm and illusion by realizing, knowing and trusting that he or she is MORE INTELLIGENT than the sociopath, especially when seeing through that person and situation, or understanding all of the angles being played (the whole thing becomes and looks dumb). It's purely psychological, since intelligence plays a MAJOR factor in such attraction. Doing that daily [not for long, because it works fast, much like an antidote] and understanding it will work. Guaranteed. Then, after doing so, one can find a more intelligent man or woman - a more suitable match.
Stay Smart, there is a lot of truth in what you are saying. Understanding is most important. Awareness and education about sociopathy is going to help all of us, sociopath and non sociopaths. You still sound bitter, though, and want to ostracize all sociopaths. I hope you can get over that. There is no we are smarter or they are smarter. Just different. Intelligence means different things to different people. I am sure a hell's angel has a completely different definition of what being intelligent means, compared to a engineer, a teacher, a religious person or anybody else.
DeleteOldAndWise,
DeleteNegative, I really don't want to ostracize all sociopaths, and I'm not bitter at all. I understand the concept of being DIFFERENT, since I, too, have had to battle some things in my life, so don't jump to any conclusions, because you don't know who I am or why I'm here. You obviously didn't think this through before saying that I want to ostracize people (sociopaths are people, too, and some are not fake with a cover or naturally unable to love or to reciprocate feelings as some people believe). My comment had something to do with another comment I had left for someone earlier, because it was still on my mind (In love with a sociopath (part 1) http://www.sociopathworld.com/2014/11/in-love-with-sociopath-part-1.html Also, did you read the comment below, the one I wrote after this comment?
I didn't say that sociopaths are smarter or less intelligent than non-sociopaths. You really didn't understand my point. I wasn't making any comparisons. Again, I'm not here to ostracize anyone or anything. People's minds work in different ways.
Hi stay smart. No I had not read your second comment when I responded to your first. I am glad you do not want to ostracize all sociopaths and that you think of them as different, not worse or less intelligent than others.
DeleteThe comparisons you were making when you said "knowing and trusting that he or she is MORE INTELLIGENT than the sociopath" and "one can find a more intelligent man or woman" was about a certain type of sociopath, not all sociopaths, is that right? My misunderstanding.
And you are right, I do not know you and why you are in this site, I can only read your comments outside of full context. Would you mind sharing?
Amending my last comment (to be fair toward others):
ReplyDeleteAnyone, man or woman, who is attracted to a sociopath {who is actually fake with a cover} can easily undo...
I added {who is actually fake with a cover} because not all sociopaths are fake or wanting to hurt others. Although some people out there find this hard to believe, some sociopaths are actually in love-based, strong and long-term relationships.
OldAndWise, I do think of sociopaths as different, and I really mean that. As to intelligence, I actually believe that some sociopaths are highly intelligent, their IQs being way above those of average people, and that includes other sociopaths as well as non-sociopaths. This is a point which some people do not factor in when judging some sociopaths as plain worthless. These same people don't know that these same sociopaths have made great contributions to literature, science and history, all without harming anyone or making anyone feel worthless. In fact, I've read some things where the sociopath made a remark without realizing that it sounded hurtful to the person hearing it, making it unintentional. It is just the way some people's minds work, thus making them different.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't making comparisons earlier. My point was that intelligence is highly important when involved in a relationship, my thoughts being focused on the story I commented on earlier {I linked to it in my last comment}. I VALUE high intelligence, and this is why I thought along those lines. Having said that, I didn't have a certain type of sociopath in mind.
Why am I here? Just reading through. And you?
I meant to add this as well about the contributions of sociopaths. Had these same people known that the contributions were made by sociopaths, they wouldn't have held them in high esteem throughout the years. Social stigma.
ReplyDeleteThis is actually one of my favorite quotes. If you haven't read the other books, you should. I've only read to Xenocide, but they're fantastic.
ReplyDeleteThis quote makes a lot of sense. ...Sometimes, I accidentally profile people. I have a knack for knowing when something is "off," and by intuitive leap I've identified a few socios and a neurotypical or two who were waiting for someone to see behind the mask. Usually I'm clueless as to what makes a person tick, but when this thing happens, I am terrifically accurate. And I love them. The way them love themselves. Deeply, instinctually. It isn't empathy, but it is understanding. And oh, how I could destroy them. For me there's a fine line between love and the desire to destroy. They go hand in hand. Knowing someone in this way makes me love them, and loving them makes me want to break them. Ruin them. Possess them. When I love someone, I want their soul. Love, of course, is the reason I take care of them instead. But yes, knowing someone well enough to love them makes it possible to destroy them so completely they, for my own purposes, become essentially a non-entity.
Another quote, Ender talking about the Hive Queen:
"I knew her so well that I loved her, or maybe I loved her so well that I knew her. Either way, I was tired of fighting. So I blew up her planet."
And one more:
"You are the one human being who is capable of understanding the alien mind, because you are the alien mind; you know what it is to be unhuman because there’s never been any human group that gave you credentials as a bona fide homo sapien."
I think most of us here can relate to that one, just a little bit.
I know I'll cringe in the morning at the incoherency of this post. It's late and I've been on the bad swing of bp. Right now I'm having trouble giving a fiddlestick. Happy to see a bit of Ender's Game.
Cheers
"I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
ReplyDeleteI agree with this part of the quote in the post, but that somebody has to unequivocally deserve your love. This is what I have always believed.
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"Love thy enemy," Some Guy said.
ReplyDeleteOne vanquishes enemies. One loves what one vanquishes. It's yours once you vanquish it, and we love what is ours, even if we love only the fact that, being ours, it is ours to hate if we so choose.
But love them (the enemy) the way they love themselves? Unless we're speaking of a perfect telepathic mirror, nuh uh. Same with understanding.
If we remove from this extract -- "In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him" -- the word "truly", then it holds up as logic. Truly understand someone? When we don't even understand ourselves?
"You know why I quit playing ballads? Cause I love playing ballads." Miles Davis