From a reader:
I am almost at the end of your work. I assume most of the story was true ( although you made reference to snow in Southern California). The story of you dad punching the holes in the door was quite disturbing. I would imagine you have many stories this severe from childhood.
My observation is that you have the tools to be more successful in your career and life. I am a physician but not a psychiatrist. The premise of the book is that you are a sociopath. I think you might also have antisocial personality disorder. You have likely researched this given your intelligence.
Have you ever considered therapy? Maybe you are happy with your life. From your academic acheivements you could easily be a full partner at a large firm or a full professor of law.
I can from a damaged childhood too. I know how hard it can be.
Take care.
From M.E.:
https://www.google.com/maps/search/big+bear+mountain/@34.2363405,-116.8919775,14z/data=!3m1!4b1
Yes, I have considered therapy. I've actually been seeing a therapist for the past year or so. He intentionally doesn't tell me what he is doing so I don't thwart his goals and make it a power struggle, and so I would guess that 80% of our sessions are misdirection on his part, which makes for an interesting therapy dynamic. But therapy has been really helpful. I feel like I finally learned how to not be manipulative. I think people always assumed that it was a choice with me, but I really had no idea how to not be because I didn't feel like I had a default choice that I would make just for my own sake, rather than as an attempt to manipulate somehow. So I always just chose things with other people's preferences in mind instead of my own. Does that make sense? I'm not entirely sure how I started recognizing that I had my own preferences. And now when I don't want to be manipulative, I just do those things. I completely ignore the outside world and just try to figure out what is my true desire, rather than thinking of the effect my choices will have on other people. The probably sounds selfish, and maybe eventually I will get to whatever happy medium most people have on this, but right now I just feel doubly skilled to be able to not only manipulate when I want to, but stop manipulating when I want to.
I am almost at the end of your work. I assume most of the story was true ( although you made reference to snow in Southern California). The story of you dad punching the holes in the door was quite disturbing. I would imagine you have many stories this severe from childhood.
My observation is that you have the tools to be more successful in your career and life. I am a physician but not a psychiatrist. The premise of the book is that you are a sociopath. I think you might also have antisocial personality disorder. You have likely researched this given your intelligence.
Have you ever considered therapy? Maybe you are happy with your life. From your academic acheivements you could easily be a full partner at a large firm or a full professor of law.
I can from a damaged childhood too. I know how hard it can be.
Take care.
From M.E.:
https://www.google.com/maps/search/big+bear+mountain/@34.2363405,-116.8919775,14z/data=!3m1!4b1
Yes, I have considered therapy. I've actually been seeing a therapist for the past year or so. He intentionally doesn't tell me what he is doing so I don't thwart his goals and make it a power struggle, and so I would guess that 80% of our sessions are misdirection on his part, which makes for an interesting therapy dynamic. But therapy has been really helpful. I feel like I finally learned how to not be manipulative. I think people always assumed that it was a choice with me, but I really had no idea how to not be because I didn't feel like I had a default choice that I would make just for my own sake, rather than as an attempt to manipulate somehow. So I always just chose things with other people's preferences in mind instead of my own. Does that make sense? I'm not entirely sure how I started recognizing that I had my own preferences. And now when I don't want to be manipulative, I just do those things. I completely ignore the outside world and just try to figure out what is my true desire, rather than thinking of the effect my choices will have on other people. The probably sounds selfish, and maybe eventually I will get to whatever happy medium most people have on this, but right now I just feel doubly skilled to be able to not only manipulate when I want to, but stop manipulating when I want to.
After reading this I thought about the possibility of not manipulating others. I suppose I could trick myself by assuming, when I don't want to manipulate others, that whatever it is I do or say to someone will not matter because there will be no consequence, because I imagine that existence will be eliminated after whatever I say or do.
ReplyDelete
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DeleteThis post got caught up in my spam filter.
ReplyDeleteM.E. is a doll! A living doll! But what happens in her future? Where does she
ReplyDeletego from here? Do you think she can make "old bones?" Will she EVER be loved?
what do y mean?
Deleteoh puh-lease, no one gets old anymore...there's juvederm and botox :D:D
DeleteM.E. is very much loved... I love her for who she is and the work she is doing.... but i wouldn't want her as a close friend.... does that make sense?! it is a survival kit... i love lions.... but don't hang around them! simple as that!
Deleteyeah it's pretty much how some people feel about socios. so yup it makes sense.
DeleteOh thank god I don't have to scroll through the fantastic Mr. Fox anymore...
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone believe this email from a psychopath about therapy:
ReplyDeletehttp://jonathanronson.tumblr.com/post/43313551453/an-email-from-a-psychopath#notes
..."Yes therapy was transformative, though it is possible to overstate its impacts. I will always see the world through different lenses to much of the rest of the world. My emotional reactions are different, my endowments are impressive in some respects, not so in others, much like other people. ..."
I remember reading that somewhere on "Ask Dr. Robert". In the archives, I think.
Deletehttp://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/
Nope. Just some fool looking for attention.
Delete"I am a physician but not a psychiatrist. The premise of the book is that you are a sociopath. I think you might also have antisocial personality disorder."
Please get your facts straight if you are going to go on a website for sociopaths and pretend to be one.
As far as therapy, I've been through it many times. For the most part, I pretend. I enjoy being smarter than them. I have never found their advice helpful or useful, they try to fit me into a category based on my past experiences and familial history. Psychiatrists always try to load me up with medication to stop me from being who I am. I then live in a drugged stupor feeling complete nothingness. Drugs also fog my mind and make it difficult to think things through-I need to know that I am completely capable of leaving a given situation at any time.
I am at peace with who I am, and I firmly believe that we are able to make the conscious decision to modify our behavior (not our thoughts), IF WE CHOOSE TO.
It has taken me years of negative experiences, learning, introspection,
relationships with other sociopaths and most importantly, self-acceptance to reach this conclusion.
I will always play my games because they bring me such immense pleasure :), and I will continue to manipulate others to have my needs met-without any feelings of remorse, shame or guilt.
But I understand that it is in my best interest to modify many aspects of my behavior...such as controlling my impulses and keeping my boundaries so that I don't hurt the people who truly care about me and accept me for what I am.
Like Mom always said: "don't burn your bridges!".
Now that you've worked on the manipulation part, maybe you should work on the paranoia part.
ReplyDeleteSocios surely scoff at theraphy? Something constructed for empaths to deal with all their guilt, for everything? Talk, not really what a psychopath sees as "rewarding"? Hollow men do not appreciate "talking authority" trying to control/direct the conversation? Hollow men may have a label for such gentlemen, and sometimes it is "probing shitbird"?
ReplyDeleteSpot on.
DeleteMany 'normals' scoff at therapy. They all have their different reasons. There is no such thing as the 'real' or 'true' norm, just as there is no 'real' socio -- we are all individuals not postage stamps.
DeleteI agree going to therapy about guilt issues is not the therapy suited to sociopathy. But there are many kinds of therapy. Just like regular therapy does't work for BPD but DBT does.
Some but clearly not all socios scoff and some do not. Are you saying that ME is not a socio because "socios surely scoff at therapy"?
There is no logical difference between many and some. Normal=person who would say we are all different. Rawr, I want to attract the uninformed/unintelligent to my blog--but in a mellow, seemingly intelligent way.
DeleteImagine a talking spider with an Internet connection. Imagine you are caught in its world wide web.
ReplyDeleteIt's fun for trolling :P
DeleteYou funny RA!!!
DeleteME, I think you will understand this: the few hugs that my sociopath friend has given me over the years, he has always done it for me. They are completely selfless and controlled. I feel like slapping him and telling him: do it for you, don't do it for me!
ReplyDeleteSame with a lot of other things he does for me. Just for me. Nothing in it for him. It does not make him feel good when he does those things. It is work for him. But he knows that if he keeps me happy, I will willingly and happily give him what he wants when he wants and needs it and that I will feel good about it. So in that sense, the hugs are very selfish.
So selfless and so selfish at the same time. It is very foreign. It is disturbing over time to the people who do not make the effort to understand it or do not have the intellectual ability to figure it out.
Metaphorically, it looks like you have learned to give hugs and enjoy them for what they are for yourself. Your next step is to enjoy the hugs both for yourself, and for the good feeling it gives the other person.
My friend and I are at an awkward stage in our relationship. He knows I have figured him out. We talk about it. He knows I still like him for who he is. But
Mmm... please ignore the last paragraph above.
Deletewhy you asking to ignore the most interesting part of your text?! I bet he hate you now.... and will manage a way to punish you for that.... even if it takes some good years breeding you.... watch out get out or bleed out.... your choice!
DeleteLol, I am not that paranoid! But you seem to be.. What is your story, anon?
DeleteMy "friend" would not "punish" me for this! He knows we are in an awkward phase. Or even maybe at the end of this very weird relationship. That is the risk you take with any relationship, but more so if the other party is a sociopath. I have known this for quite some time now. Once the sociopath knows you see his mask and you are not angry with him, that you are not rejecting him, how is he supposed to behave? That is what ME is learning right now. She is learning to understand herself without the mask. Not sure my friend is mature enough or willing enough to do it. I am giving him a lot of space and waiting to see if he has the energy, the intellect and the inclination to do the work. There is only a slight chance he will, and I don't think I can help him further than I have so far in his journey. I know though that I have already been a great influence on him. And perhaps that is where it stops. The future will tell.
There are plenty of other things besides acknowledging we are in a awkward phase in our relationship that are much more important to him and that I could use to make him blow a fuse, if I wanted to! But I feel that would be wrong. I do not want to use my knowledge of him to undermine him, though he has tried to do that to me several times in the past and to some other people I know as well. Surely some people in this blog will think it would be wrong for me to use this knowledge against him, and some people will think I should definitely use it to get him to expose himself so that he can be flushed out of his current circle. To go where, though? To another circle that is more innocent than the one he is in now?
And in terms of having been bred? Perhaps that is a good description, though it feels like you want to make it look like he is superior to me and he is using me. I don't see it that way. We are definitely using each other equally. It certainly is an eye opening experience to befriend a sociopath. I am using my knowledge not only to protect myself, but also to protect others around me. Redirect the lightning, so to speak.
I just stopped writing in the earlier post because I thought that I was starting to ramble on some topics that were not related to the main subject. I will talk about it some other time I am sure, assuming I feel there is an interest in it. But I feel there aren't many people that have befriended a sociopath after the sociopath had them as a target. So it feels like people would either pity me because they would think of me as a victim, a well bred victim to re-use your word. Or they would get angry at me just for giving a sociopath the same compassion I give everybody else. Not much in between. Not much understanding out there... we have a long way to go before we are educated enough about sociopathy to be less frightened or even repulsed and more accepting of it.
Years away.
OldandWise, empaths do things they don't like to do all the time for the people they love an care about. The only difference is they don't have to put any thought into it. If you have to think about it, that's your ego stepping in. To truly be selfess is to put yourself aside in someone else's time of need. It is the same function or behavior for the empath or the socio, but the intent that differs greatly.
DeleteOldanWise.... I think you are very wise an indeed a great human being. If your choice to stay around, befriend and understand him is not hurting you on the way. if you feel safe within yourself, that you can handle it. Great!
DeleteI am indeed paranoid at the moment, it is not nice. I wish I could be and stan at the frame of min of your reply. But i have been badly hurt by my "malignant optimism" and I am choosing to see life by its nature, by what it is!
My mother and brother were very abusive with me.... I developed codependecy patterns to cope and survive.... after therapy and moving on with life.... meet other people just like my mother and brother an experienced tha same abuse.... I trie to protect myself, to be understanding... I guess they just needed love an understanding?! actually from this perspective I was assuming I am the healthy one an they were "in need"... once this pattern was clear, I faced the real feelings an disgust they had of me, as apart from them i have many other friends and healthy safe relationships.... they had me and wanted to control and destroy my relationships, stole from me ... on and on... I am not saying I am a "poor" victim here.... I knew their nature and with self-denial I volunteered for abuse.... I gave them forgiveness when they haven't earned it... so I was enabling their abusive behaviour and I have suffered badly.
One of them called me saying i was been cruel envying them to come to my house or connecting.... but honestly I would be cruel to myself if I on't look after myself.
I hope your friend recognise the friend he has ... value nurture an protect you, even from himself... them he has my respect! otherwise.... I wish you the best
Oh, I have been hurt all right. But I learned along the way. I do feel safe within myself. What a very nice way of expressing it, anon.
DeleteIf you are paranoid now and don't feel good, maybe you are going through what i did. But it is more difficult for you because it involves family members.
Please don't get bitter. If you do, the sociopaths in your life will have won. No point being a cranky old guy or lady, you wont enjoy your life very much and people wont enjoy your company. My advice is to get other people to support you. Talk about it to others. Make sure that if you mention the word sociopath, you do not utter it in an angry way, because it will turn people away from you. Talk to them as somebody who wants to understand. Because I think that is what will help you out.
Try to understand yourself as well, why you feel paranoid, why you don't feel good. It might help to write it down if the list is long. Don't think it is all your fault. Others are at fault as well, and they are just humans with their frailties, their nastiness, and their faults, just like you.
It is ok to cut people out of your life as well, if you can afford the luxury. If you don't, remember that being angry will no get you very far or very happy. The person who makes you angry controls your thoughts...
I hope that helps. I don't really know what anon I am writing to, and if you have written anything before, so it is a bit difficult to frame my thoughts around you.
Hugs?
oldandwise, your initial post was very illuminating, thanks for this. Your socio is very lucky to have you, but know that he may not be as compassionate as you are. Not trying to undermine your relationship but socios do not get attached to people, they borrow your personality, they are like mirrors which gives people the illusion of bonding. I think he's trying to get a feel of you, if you're a threat, keep your friends close and your enemies closer, as they say.
Deleteyour awkward friendship with him is a novel situation, and he's observing, trying to learn from it. socios are curious little buggers. but of course i could be wrong. but hey, to each his own. best of luck!
OldandWise,
Delete"Once the sociopath knows you see his mask and you are not angry with him, that you are not rejecting him, how is he supposed to behave?"
He will see you as a masochist. My advise is to leave him while you still can.
OTPS, "He will see you as a masochist." I think this is likely true. I wonder if socios also can have masochistic tendencies within themselves and, if so, are capable of self-awareness in that respect.
DeleteWhy do you recommend leaving on the basis of him seeing her as a masochist? I can think of several possibilities but am not sure what you meant.
Anon606, thank you for your concern and your advice. You are absolutely right. Socios do not bond. They are very good at giving you the impression of bonding. I am quite aware of this and have made my peace with it. I know he is learning from me, he could do worse, really. I have prospered and grown in the years that I have known him, in fact more so than he has, and some of it was thanks to him. The relationship is not novel. You may be right that he sees me as a potential enemy. I had not thought of it that way, but you may have a point.
DeleteOTPS, yes, a masochist. We all part masochist, I believe. This is how we learn, isn't it? If we always avoid what is awkward, unfamiliar and unpleasant, we do not grow. Some body I know quite well trains athletes in ling distance running. Some of them have made to the olympics. A rule of thumb is that for every encouraging word you give the athletes, you need to tell them 6 things that they are not going to like. So, yes, in that sense, I am proud to be a masochist and choose to face road blocks, hills and mountains as they appear in my path. I know sometimes I want to go and hide, but I know that if I do, I won't feel good about myself. Maybe one day I will run out of energy, but for the time being, this is who I choose to be. Dies it make sense?
Delete@OldandWiser
ReplyDeleteGET READY BABY some revenge is on your way! hahaha you have figured him out... you the clever one?! be sure my darling he will reclaim his power back.... there is no fair play with psychos.... you figured him out and has any faith You "god" will finally have a real friendship now.... will help him out.... OKKKK baby that is very annoying.... that could work if he was the one who told you the thruth.... but you the clever and nice one is very irritating an annoying.... get ready for the revenge baby!!!!
Anon, your words are pretty vicious. You are probably not a sociopath, your post is too emotionally charged. However, you would be delighted to see me be destroyed by my sociopath "friend", right? Doesn't this ring a bell?
DeleteEmpaths are not immune to those nasty tendencies we associate with sociopaths.
Pretty soon people will actually travel to Mars on a one way trip and set up a self-sustaining colony. The arduous selection process is actually under way. You can read about it on the web. Perhaps the colony will survive. Perhaps it will not (like the notorious Roanoke Island of early America).
ReplyDeleteConsider this option. Consider making the Martian colonists only sociopaths, Once all the sociopaths are sent to Mars, humans will be free of this eternal pest. Humans will then live in the eternal peace and joy we have dreamed of from the time of Atlantis. The Martians, all being sociopaths will murder, torture, and rape each other, and use up all the scarce oxygen.
On the other hand, perhaps (as many of the Martian sponsors imagine) Terra (home planet) humans will die out. Global warming? Nuclear war? Ebola as a bio weapon? So many ways. If that happens, only the sociopaths on Mars will remain of humans.
When the aliens from another star system land, they will study the remaining humans. They will say, "An entire intelligent sapient species of sociopaths! Who woulda believed it? They are a threat to the entire galaxy. With their superior advanced technology, they will push both Mars (and just to be on the safe side, Terra, the original home planet) into the sun.
Sleep tight.
Have you watched the movie "The Galapagos Affair: Satan came to Eden"?... Humanity would never be free of sociopathy because all humans can act antisocially given the right set of circumstances, we're not all Mother Theresa, even wise empaths switch off for self-preservation in a dire situation. I'm beginning to think a mentally healthy person balances the right amount of empathy and sociopathy to navigate society.
DeleteThe great story known as life will end in tragedy.
DeleteOnly tears now.
"there is no fair play with psychos...."
Deletethat sums up my pov regarding my personal relationships irl.
Movie sounds fascinating. Apparently there's a book also. As my wife and i destroyed a cult in Oregon once, not quite as lurid but fairly close, such seam fascinates me. Thanks, Morbid Polar
DeleteTherapy was pointless (to me). The difficulty of introspection was the main issue. Speaking to another when you're incapable of really listening to yourself is a prime example of futility.
ReplyDeleteI find that solitary meditation is more fruitful than conversation. Now and then I will take an hour and review my recent actions...then categorize them; detrimental or beneficial.
It helps with my impulsivity greatly because it slows me down. I have to review my examples of detrimental behaviors before I act.
Like don't tell your boss that your family died in a fiery train wreck to get three days off work.
Detrimental.
-Mycroft
i have a question. was steve jobs a sociopath?
ReplyDeleteAnimals dont need theapy. Socios are similar to animals because they dont seek "meaning of life"; they stride forward to find food, warm hut and sex. Empaths need lots of therapy, the more blabbering shite the better. They more duped & diagnosed they get, the happier they become. They need "trauma-teams" to help them through life. They see this as a great asset, helping hands. See the socio in the corner, look at his disgusted features. If such babble were sold on rolls as toilet-paper, he´d buy..
ReplyDeleteSocios are human too, maybe have more physical needs than emotional, but they share the ability for meta-awareness with humanity, i.e. the awareness that we are aware, and thus the potential for understanding and modifying our mental processes to improve their lives. A researcher called it "mindsight." Think of it as the ability of PCs to defragment every now and then to re-organize their files and work more efficiently. Socios have this ability, as M.E. pointed out in this post, she's harnessing its potential to become M.E. software version 2.0. And what do you mean by "look at his disgusted features?"
DeleteThere is a great book called Mindsight that I have started to read on 'understanding and modifying our mental processes to improve our lives'. i recommend it.
DeleteI asked myself, who has the more 'human' voice: Anon@1:23, Morbid Polar, or myself here.
DeleteI vote for Morbid Polar.
Thank you DrSci Fi, I just started reading Mindsight too! As a researcher I'm thinking I could totally test this, socios would be a good population for many reasons.
DeleteI agree with you that socios would be a good population for many reasons. Maybe all PDs?
DeleteCertainly 'normals' can gain much from the practise and knowledge in this book. It is interesting that, like NVC [that was recommended on sociopathworld by a person with strong psychopathic traits], it can work for anyone. I wonder why?
What questions would you like to test?
By the way, I don't research sociopathy for a living, so I'm not trolling this site, I do different type of research, but this is super interesting to me, as I'm a different type of human variant as well... :)
DeleteI would like to first do a pilot study to gather feedback from high functioning socios about their lifestyles (free of judgement) and to know if a better measure can be developed given that many of them question if they're socios or not, then try interventions for improving their quality of life. Robert Hare is quite a heinous researcher, imagine if a cancer researcher spoke about their patients the way he speaks about psychopaths? I'm surprised no one has called him up on that... maybe I can get a grant one day to work on this area in the dignified way it deserves, like any other research area of humanity :)
DeleteDr. SciFi... And I would test whatever questions sociopaths would like to know about themselves, I'm a grassroots type of researcher, community first, although it would be interesting to know many things, how do they love, strategize, etc, how are they similar to others, I think we are all a little sociopathic even if we deny it. What would you like to know? Are you a researcher?
DeleteI like your idea of community driven research. How would you get your sample population of high functioning sociopaths?
DeleteAre you interested in reinventing the field of psychopathy? lol. Maybe I'm not so sensitive as you are to Hare but as I see it, the field of psychopathy as it currently stands was based on research and methods of categorization and terms of description for criminal populations.
This is the only disease as far as I know that has been defined as a disease of criminality. So there has to be a bias -- unless one believes (as I have read) that there are two kinds of psychopaths -- those who were caught and incarcerated and those who were not. I don't believe that.
In terms of society and life outcomes criminality is a huge issue, but it doesn't seem to me to be the defining feature of the disorder.
I'm a retired researcher from a wholly different field. I had a major run in with an antisocial NPD type with some borderline and pathological lying mixed in for fun. Now my eyes have been opened and I find it fascinating, but not irl.
What's the story with the abusive narcissistic borderline with antisocial tendencies?
DeleteThe story -- that would be a trilogy. I'll never be able to disentangle the truth from the lies though. In the end, he was simply a bore to be around.
DeleteIt's the pathological lying, what's called 'pseudologia fantastica' -- I think that's what made it difficult for me to sort out that he was simply an abuser -- not physical but emotional. So it is either a long story or a very short one. Anyhow it did change my view of what it means and does not mean to be a human being and how blind I was too -- wanting to see the goodness in him. I was simply deluded.
Not a fan of pathological lying. No one is honest abe, but pathological liars will sit there and shamelessly tell you a red pillow is blue. Gets under my skin too much. My son's father was one. My son has his own wierd little moral code, and doesn't like pathological lying fortunately.
DeleteI had a miserable experience with a.......whatever the fuck he was. He was a pathological liar, and it was after that I started looking in to the research, and found they have more white matter in the prefrontal cortex.
DeleteIn my sick, twisted, black sense of humor, I sorta gotta laugh at the contention between some of the cluster b’s. There was this borderline chick that broke in to a drug dealer’s house, and killed him with a medieval sword. Luv that story. She was in prison of course, and was really critical of manipulators.
Delete@ polar: y do know that we may automatically not say the truth about your questions? your research probably won't be standard.
DeleteMorbid, how would you design your research?
Delete@ tessa: yeah, I'm aware, I've been observing SP for over a year and reading this blog, noticed their patterns of communication, I am a human lying detector, besides, it's important to know when you're lying too, because you care enough to lie as ME said above, part of the SP modus operandi, anyway, that is why the research would be focus on what the SPs want to get out of it more than the researcher so they see a benefit, calculating machines! lol
Delete@ Dr. Ginger: To begin, a single cross-sectional survey, mixed methods, quantitative and qualitative, more descriptive at first. I would conduct it on-line for their own comfort, given their lack of trust. Then gain their trust in the process and follow up with positive rewards and longitudinal studies which may include interventions, like any other health research I guess, why? Do you have anything in mind? Are you SP? Researcher?
DeleteYou know what's ironic? This socio is a researcher who studies social interactions, living social lives vicariously through data analysis... to study the one thing you can't have... makes me question my research interests...?!?
DeleteMorbid Polar,
DeleteSeriously? That's your great idea?
I can see it getting an Ig Nobel prize, at best.
You're calling yourself a human lie detector and think you can tell when someone is lying online? Hahaha! Talk about de deluded.
It can be incredibly hard to tell if a sociopath is lying when you are face to face and can see them, analyse their micro-expressions, etc. Online? Plenty of people will lie their ass off just to fuck with you. But then again, you are just THAT clever, aren't you?
"I would conduct it on-line for their own comfort, given their lack of trust. Then gain their trust in the process and follow up with positive rewards and longitudinal studies which may include interventions"
Many of the "sociopaths" on this site are in fact narcissists desperately seeking approval and the sociopath label.
They are going to be the ones keen to answer your research. Not sociopaths.
What are your plans to differentiate the sad case wannabes from the sociopaths?
But let's say you did get some sociopaths bored enough to bother with you. How do you propose to get their trust during this process exactly?
Positive rewards? What kind of reward would you be offering that would be worth risking exposure?
What kind of interventions were you planning on offering?
anonymous got a point ;)
Deleteyou won't be able to know when we're lying. i'm sure of that. and when it's noticeable is when we want it to be notice able. and yeah, i guess it won't be that interesting for us, right now i'm looking at it as an interesting game of lying and not being detected, which i know will only have my attention for a little while before it gets boring.
i'm not trying to fight y off it or anything. i don't care, i like the science part, the logic. and i myself like to watch people's interactions.
Deleteso, now that i'm thinking, i'd like to see the process lively, but i'm not interested in the results.
and anonymous, dear, y don't sound like a socio. anyways,
quick question though, polar: can y tell who's not a socio on this site? in general ,with reason.
Dr. Ginger, "In my sick, twisted, black sense of humor, I sorta gotta laugh at the contention between some of the cluster b’s." Yeah, it looks funny to me too.
DeleteIn pseudologia fantastica the lying is a reflex, not just to f*k with you or for advantage or for self-esteem, it just is. I think it starts young. Glad you son does not have this. I think it is a curse.
"In pseudologia fantastica the lying is a reflex, not just to f*k with you or for advantage or for self-esteem, it just is. I think it starts young. Glad you son does not have this. I think it is a curse."
Deleteyes, exactly, as i said "automatically" .
"we may automatically not say the truth"
the reason that i'm not interested in the results y think you're gonna have is just that it won't be standard. it won't be clear.
Delete@ Dr. Ginger: To begin, a single cross-sectional survey, mixed methods, quantitative and qualitative, more descriptive at first. I would conduct it on-line for their own comfort, given their lack of trust. Then gain their trust in the process and follow up with positive rewards and longitudinal studies which may include interventions, like any other health research I guess, why? Do you have anything in mind? Are you SP? Researcher?
DeleteMorbid, thanks for the response. If you are really serious, would you mind giving more details on what it would entail? I think Tessa sums exactly what I would imagine some of the issues would be. Gaming, deception, and just not caring. As you know I'm sure, there already issues with things like self report measures in research, even for normal people. Also, I'm hoping any ideas of being a human lie detector get put to the side when conducting scientific research.
tessa, there are people who lie like this who are not sociopaths. often lying to their own detriment -- making fools of themselves. but lying is its own reward. that was my point -- not about socios.
DeleteMorbid, I hope you find a way to do the research you are interested in despite the glaring difficulties with it.
Morbid Polar,
Deletesuccessful sociopaths such as Alan Greenspan, Dick Cheney and Henry Kissinger will always be one step ahead.You will never have a proper sample...
Well, I didn't know I was talking to the Socio Research Committee here, but while you are all at it, I appreciate your feedback, lies, manipulation, and all, it's a good start.
DeleteI do have ideas in mind about protocols, they just don't include my name as Primary Investigator Morbid Polar, but my other identity. It would be great to collaborate with M.E. and others on this site on the research endeavor, even if to keep you entertained... any takers? other questions? voila! ;)
Ok, fair enough PI Morbid Polar.
DeleteI'd go back to my original question about defining the sample population. First off, I wouldn't restrict to sociopathy but consider all PDs. This gets rid of alot of questions of having one PD but faking another... There could be some nons who would try to fake having a PD, but on the whole that seems something that a non would have little motivation to do, and probably couldn't pull it off anyway.
If you really are serious I'd also make another website where people can also contribute and you can have an anonymous exchange.
I have no idea how to deal with the serious issue of lying but Dr. Ginger mentions some methods. Are you aware of those methods? What are they?
Morbid, I'd be happy to help as much as a I can, but as stated earlier, there would be quite a few challenges to overcome. For instance, what would be the criteria for participants in your study? It has to be good, solid science, and you have to control for everything. You can't just say, well they just have to be sociopaths. Will it be an experiment? Will there be a manipulation? A control group? What instruments will be used? Are they valid and reliable? Will there be a pilot? How will you collect data? Mixed methods is ok, but I don't personally have a lot of experience with qualitative research. It's a bit iffy in my opinion, but that's hot button issue in the field of psychology. Will this go through an ethics committee? Are you intending on publishing it in an academic journal? Will deception be used on the part of the researcher? How will you control for deception from participants? I'm still trying to get a better understanding of how you will design it.
DeleteI'm very excited about your interest Dr. Ginger and everybody else! To be honest, no research study is without pitfalls, you can't control for everything, but every study adds knowledge, and little by little the whole picture begins to emerge, M.E. is brave to share her life with us so we'll be in touch in this blog and see where it takes us, at the moment I need to finish the research I'm doing first =)
DeleteOne viable theory to guide an intervention would be the theory of positive future selves :)
DeleteRadical Agnostic without his password, not that anybody should give a shit. Anyway, I met Steve Jobs once or twice in his early career. Before he was the NeXT big thing.
ReplyDeleteI worked for and with a number of people who tried to become the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. With much less success. They struck me as low level sociopaths. (I also strike myself as being a low level sociopath. Raising the question -- were Gates and Jobs (and similar) high level sociopaths or made it big? Or were they low level sociopaths who made it big pretending at pretending to be human beings? Look how much success Gates has had at pretending to be empathetic and caring.
y can't know about some one beliefs about god, no matter how well y know that person or even if they tell y about it. y still don't know.
DeleteRA again. I just noticed that there is a new memoir out about Jobs. THE BITE IN THE APPLE written (apparently) by a woman he screwed (in all senses). I have not read (and won't read) but all the negative reviews at Amazon strike me as coming from sociopaths. So of -- what is this woman's problem So he screwed her and impregnated her and abandoned her and ignored his child. To Tessa -- are you the woman whom Jobs screwed? If so, why would you need to ask. I can't "prove" the point, but I think the answer to your question is fairly obvious. Yes.
ReplyDeleteno i'm not. and it was obvious to me that he was a socio. but there was some other talks and opinions and i don't know all the personality disorders so i thought i'd ask other's opinion too
Deleteit's no big deal
Not a sociopath, but I can relate to how M.E. feels, that her own preferences are subordinate to others.
ReplyDeleteFor me, it's just that usually I don't care what I do. So, if I am fine with the other person's preference, I'll do that, which makes me look favorable to them. I've gone on a bunch of dates recently, and tried to experiment with 'being myself'.
I am extremely laid-back, can tolerate things well that others might find profoundly annoying, and have no true fear of any harm befalling me. I have total confidence in my ability to get through any situation, however, difficult, with the most favorable outcome.
To not care what other people think is such a huge relief, it's like unsaddling myself from a burden I've always carried, and I've found that moving around is as easy as floating.
Of course, my default is still to intuitively analyze every outcome and situation and achieve the best result, but it's more interesting to let people remain a variable and go in their own direction, rather than nudging them in the direction I prefer. Interacting with people WITHOUT trying to control them is a new paradigm for me.
Lol. ME you cute little people pleaser.
ReplyDelete
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