Maybe. Not being an obviously self centered dick is akin to setting your karma ship out to sea equipped with a decent crew and navigation system.
Everything else, such as looks, smarts, strength, kindness and being considerate are further upgrades. You can get by without them, but they do make it smoother sailing and more likely to bring rewards.
Then of course you have pirates. Aka sociopaths :)
Karma is comfort food for the empathic, a warm blanket of assurance that if you are good and kind the universe will be good to you in return. I cannot say it does not exist, but the social convenience of the concept makes it immediately suspect.
It is a poetic quote to be sure, but can be explained without the emotional vineer and the suspicious weighting in favor of subjectively "good" behavior. The Law of Unintended Consequences and the physics behind the rippling properties of water discuss the same phenomenon.
Being agnostic, I can't fully buy into karma as it's usually discussed. However, I like to think of karma as the "imprint" we leave on the world.
It's like this - if I make a habit of stealing gum from the liquor store, the person running the place will wise up and take measures. Maybe I'm banned (bad "karma" for me, but only me) or maybe the shop keeper moves the gum behind the register (maybe cold medicine would have been a better choice for this example). Now it's a hassle for me and everyone else - bad "karma" all around.
I think this sort of use of a karma concept has been useful to me.
C.C. It sounds as if you haven't experienced karma, yet. Ignorance is bliss. But by all means, keep believing it doesn't exist if it makes you feel better.
We don't know anything about the late Colleen Ritzer's private life, or past life before she incarnated this time around, but I don't think the "karma theory" fits her. Colleen was a 24 year old math teacher from Danvers Mass. She had her whole life ahead of her, and was on the road to accomplishment. She still lived with her folks. She seemed aboveboard to all that knew her. One of her students, 14 year old Philip Chism, partook of a carefully planned assult, brutal rape, and painful murder of her in Oct. 2014. What "karma" was she paying for? And millions of other's who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Even for all of M.E.'s "confessions," she wouldn't desirve such a fate. So the karma theory only works if you are being punished in this life, for what you did in a prior life. There is no such thing as reincarnation, because the Bible says, "It is given to all men to die ONCE, and then the judgement."
To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, I appreciate your reference of multiple incarnations because it is both central and necessary to the common definition and context of karma. Also key to the concept is a "whole-person" concept that defies modern/conventional ethic: all the mosquito's she swatted, mouse traps she serviced, and times she chose not to hold a door or tip the standard gratuity could coalesce into a counterweight that was later balanced by her brutal rape and murder. I cannot defend the point with rationale, but a look at the origins of the karma concept will validate the point.
Playing devil's advocate is fun. "to die once" may not refer to death of the body, but the death of a sinful spirit.
Regarding reincarnation in the bible.
Jesus said to his disciples:
"But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they have, just as it is written about him." Mark 9:13
"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him . . ." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. Matt 17:12-13
As he went along he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" John 9:1-2
Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return. Job 1:21
. . . when Melchigedek met Abraham Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Hebrews 7:10
And since we're talking bloodlines, I'm not Jewish or Christian. I'm Danish. Agnostic.
If karma and incarnation are real, which I certainly can't assess, then I wonder what I did to deserve this strange and unsettling existence as someone so entirely different from most other human beings among them.
Generally I do like the thought that everything has been previously determined by our past decisions though I doubt there's a soul in a spiritual or even religious sense which makes it kind of dissociated to think about my past lives' deeds... still good fun to toy around with this thought. c:
The Pali term "Karma" literally means action or doing. Any kind of intentional action whether mental, verbal, or physical, is regarded as Karma. It covers all that is included in the phrase "thought, word and deed". Generally speaking, all good and bad action constitutes Karma. In its ultimate sense Karma means all moral and immoral volition. Involuntary, unintentional or unconscious actions, though technically deeds, do not constitute Karma, because volition, the most important factor in determining Karma, is absent. Many people (both believers and non-believers) have observed that in life, what goes around tends to come around. The betrayer gets betrayed, the thief gets robbed, and so on. However, it's also true that many people seem to reap tragedy that is greater than anything that they have sown, particularly in comparison with other people. This is referred to as "ultimate justice".
A nonbeliever's perception of the world is built upon life in the flesh, because they don't know anything else.
When a predator like a wolf kills its prey, will it have bad karma for doing what comes naturally to it, will it be punished in its 'next life' for its cruel deeds. The whole idea of it is ridiculous.
When a wolf kills its prey the only karma it receives is 1) the animals go live somewhere else when they are on to whats going wrong because the wolf wasn't cautious enough 2) that the farmer who owns the animals is lurking about with a shotgun trying to stop it. 3) the sheep go mental and all attack the wolf. Most of these are unlikely so the wolf doesn't care about karma, or heaven, or where the hell anyone thinks god is going to find 7 virgins for every good dead man. Its about the here and now, Karma happens now not in the next life. Heaven is lots of yummy sheep, right there in that field, and no-one is looking out for them...
Karma is this, I hit you and I'm too stupid to realize you're bigger than me, you hit me back and I break my nose.
Woosy Magical Thinking Karma is this: That hater who's daddy doesn't love him and got me sacked will get his just deserts one day. Reality is: he is such a cocksucker and his boss is so narcissistic that they will both go on to do very well in life as they continue to overcompensate for their lack of manhood as they pretend they don't care that their wives divorced them for being arrogant putas. However they may find it difficult to run a business together staffed only by idiot graduate-sheep and needy-beta-orbiters who don't think for themselves, that their career will end with a whimper and they will die alone after a life of chasing the ghost of momentary glory they had in their youth when stupid weak enablers said they were cool. Or not, it depends how self aware, how skilled, and how mindful they are.
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"...I can't fully buy into karma as it's usually discussed. However, I like to think of karma as the "imprint" we leave on the world." (as per images below)
DR.SCIFI AS Anonymous December 3, 2014 at 4:28 AM
"One of her students, 14 year old Philip Chism, partook of a carefully planned assult, brutal rape, and painful murder of her in Oct. 2014.
Even for all of M.E.'s "confessions," she wouldn't desirve such a fate."
HLHaller AS Nihilistic Mind December 3, 2014 at 5:22 AM
"If karma and incarnation are real, which I certainly can't assess, then I wonder what I did to deserve this strange and unsettling existence..."
HLHaller December 3, 2014 at 4:46 AM
"Aye matey! ;)~"
"CULPA" for the imbecilic and "karma-incriminating" comments above - (DrSciFi and HLHaller a.k.a. Béla Ferenc Dezső Blaskó) and as illustrated below:
THE "DUD EGG" EPISODE as narrated by Dr.SciFi and HLHaller
AS >> Anonymous December 2, 2014 at 3:23 PM
THE PROJECTED THOUGHTS and JOINT "VENTURE" in IMAGES, too, of Dr.SciFi and HLHaller (featuring The Sadist with one of two being the masochist, but, as it were..."only in the bedroom"):
"Grendel, let me get this straight...you prefer text to actually meeting with her? Granted, she does seem like a ditz, but at least if she's on her knees with mouth full, she might be bearable.
Do you prefer text because you prefer the fantasy? It's all too easy to talk about a sculpted body, 8 inch cock and all the ways you'd make a woman scream and cry with pleasure.
Hate the faked moans and awkward silences, where you know the sexiest thought that crossed her mind was that she was going shoe shopping to console herself after this?"
"However, it's also true that many people seem to reap tragedy that is greater than anything that they have sown, particularly in comparison with other people. This is referred to as "ultimate justice"."
This...a picture in "blue" dress-up that I recently saw on the internet...
For all those depressed souls who are either targeting and/or feeling targeted, and perhaps to those wondering about reincarnation, I give you this song, the theme from Disney's Malificent/sleeping beauty.
I know you, I walked with you once upon a dream. I know you, that look in your eyes is so familiar a gleam. And I know it's true that visions are seldom what they seem. But if I know you, I know what you'll do. You'll love me at once. The way you did once. Upon a dream.
How do you define the "gleam" in the eye of the song?
I wonder how people do not "believe" in karma. To me, karma is something tangible. Real life example: Last month a lawyer called me. Turns out he is working on this intellectual property case and needs information about events that took places in 1987, 1988 and 1989. (ok, yes I am somewhat old...). I know I have some information that can be helpful to one of the parties in the dispute. I may even have some paper trail. If the person had been anything but decent to me, if he had at all pissed me off all those years back, there is no way I would spend time providing and researching the information he needs. I am pretty sure they are talking about a large amount of money.
So yes, what goes around comes around. And the past never goes away.
Many years ago I had someone who had been unpleasant to me call looking for help. I have to say telling him to "take a long walk off a short pier' was gratifying - the memory of it is still...enjoyable. If you call that karma, yeah - it's hard to deny that, I would think.
Did you see my follow up questions to feeling chilled? I am interested in hearing more of your experiences with it -
It's the flip side of O&W's story - in this case, the persons prior actions created unfavorable outcomes in the distant (unknowable) future.
The notion of karma, as I have come to understand it, might be summed up thus: it is the condition of our existence that is the result of our prior actions..
And yes, sometimes even undeserving people get screwed. I think that's what I might call bad luck, since I don't have a concept of my own existence before this one. But, if I did, I can see the temptation of applying the same reasoning - albeit, less informed.
Only if you accept the concept of karma the way lazy Westerners do. The "My name is Earl" retarded notion that there is something keeping score and meting out justice. Santa Claus for adults.
There is no great justice that the universe, god (or what-the-fuck-ever) doles out. But there are consequences for our actions.
Yes, kids and good, hard-working people sometimes get royally fucked. Yes, self centered assholes do run the earth and have a lot of fun at other people's expense without ever seeming to pay for it. That's life.
To use the ship analogy again, sometimes the best ships with the best crew run into a storm. Or pirates. And lose everything. Sometimes the nastiest pirate gets a big enough score to live like a king. That's life.
Karma seems like a meaningless concept to me. I don't get it except at some vague intellectual level. Does anyone know how karma is related to the notion of evil, or if it is related at all?
I don't see it as good/evil as much as good versus bad as much as what we do has an effect on the world around us and we should be mindful of our actions since we live in this world.
In a crude sense, I see it as "don't shit where you eat."
Dr SciFi, I studied yoga and such long ago. Karma is essentially about cause and effect, not necessarily tied to spiritual beliefs. It seems that wouldn't conflict too much with a sociopath trying to avoid bad results by controlling some of his or her actions.
I like Peter Seller's in a movie about a empathic, daft gardener who gathers a cult of followers. Life's a garden. You sow as you reap.
Now I realize that we all, including Buddha, shit. It's part of being a biological organism. Living food in, garbage out. In the instance of karma, it's about the quality of the shit, and yes, where you do it. From an ecological view,Toxins out into the water, soil and air makes for toxins inside the human body, hence science has discovered we all carry a toxic load, from our surroundings, aptly illustrating that human pollution in the environs comes right back at us. Also, forensics now use a toxic load reading of bones, etc., to find out where a murder victim grew up and lived and worked. In other words, our bones carry geographical and ecological information. This example shows that, like background radiation and fossil records, that certain aspects of life are undeniably recorded. There's also ideas like cosmic magnetic fields recording the memories of all biological life.
Back to the garden of good and evil. With what do we fertilize the garden?
The quality of Buddha's spiritual and presumably actual shit was composed of gene-bending loving ferts versus what the corporations, i.e., Monsanto, are tilling our soil with today. Toxins. His diet was mostly veggie, but he would eat meat if someone whose spirit was in a tune offered it to him.
As for the actual location of where Buddha shit, I would be surprised if it was near his supply of drinking water.
On the other hand, Sagan asked the Dali Lama what would happen if science disproved reincarnation. His holiness replied that Tibetan Buddhism would stop teaching it. But added that it would be difficult to prove.
I had a bit of a time following you, but including a reference to Being There at the beginning and closing with that Dali Lama statement - well... 8)~
Yes - how we treat the environment is, in my (not very humble *smirk and wink*) opinion a good example of Karma in action -
One of the things that I have long found so very attractive about Buddhism is the openness to changing ideas, especially towards science. It does make it easier for me to listen to what they have to say - even the parts I don't understand.
Is that, maybe, one of the characteristics of "our kind?" An inherent resistance to being motivated from without? Or is that more universal? (really asking)
Grendel, your meandering through Buddha's shit, forensic science, ecology, Sagan and cosmic magnetic fields is quite a treat.
I guess one of Newton's Laws -- for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction -- could also be interpreted through a Karmic (is that a word??) lens.
Except we know that those laws are only classical approximations of the real quantum mechanic, chaotic system -- where typical notions of causality (think also of general relativity) break down.
Can karma exist without causality?
btw I think that stuff about cosmic magnetic fields is crap. As I think Sagan said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. this is actually what statistical inference is based on too and it is how we make intelligent decisions in an uncertain world as Jaynes explains in his tome "probability and the logic of science". Our world is inherently probabilistic and causality is not so simple to work out in general even if we believe it exists.
As wonderful at making predictions as Quantum Mechanics is at making predictions, there is one criticism that has stuck with me and long bothered me (and others).
The fact is, that while is does a wonderful job of prediction (and setting boundaries of what that means), it really doesn't actually explain the how and why. If anything, it's demanded more answers to those ends (e.g. entanglement).
I think this is one of the reasons that physics has started looking elsewhere and information theory seems to be the new(er) game in town.
physics has always relied on mathematics. i have no idea what you mean by look elsewhere. i don't understand why knowledge that raises more questions, which is what knowledge often does, is a fault or criticism. I also don't know what you mean by how and why. we know an apple falls from the ground, from Newton, how is via an equation and why is due to the existence of gravity.
No question - I find more "truth" in math than just about anything else.
What I mean by "looking elsewhere" is to treat physical systems (i.e. the real world) as "simulations." In this way, everything is reduced to information, which is then examined/manipulated/etc. It's a topic that's been rattling around in the scientific media for some time, but it's been getting a lot of press the last five years or so. "Are we living in a simulation?" - that stuff.
What I'm getting at is that QM is, as I see it, a "black box" type of a process. It doesn't really do much of a job of explaining what is happening in the sense that we are still debating what it means for the wave function to collapse and when that happens - never mind why the wave function collapses (why would observation do that?).
These are the questions that QM raises that make it feel unsatisfying to me. It's a wonderful tool - one that keeps on giving. Gravity is in the same boat - for all of the great successes of physics we are still struggling to understand what gravity "is." (can you explain the Higgs Boson idea?)
See my comments below in relation to quantum mechanics and "the new(er) game in town," which is not your current knowledge. My comments below belong in this "thread," speaking of which, "string" theory has also fascinated me for some time. I would also call it a preference.
"physics has always relied on mathematics. i have no idea what you mean by look elsewhere.......I also don't know what you mean by how and why. we know an apple falls from the ground, from Newton, how is via an equation and why is due to the existence of gravity."
"Dr.SciFi,"
FROM https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/deeper-than-quantum-mechanics-david-deutschs-new-theory-of-reality-9b8281bc793a
"In other words, Deutsch has an impressive track record.
Only a fool would bet against the possibility that constructor theory could also become a mainstream idea in physics that will have profound consequences for our future understanding of the universe. Shannon, who died in 2001, would surely be impressed."
HL, a lot of people, including experts in quantum theory find it unsatisfying, so you are not alone in that.
About "What I mean by "looking elsewhere" is to treat physical systems (i.e. the real world) as "simulations.""
Yes this is a fascinating way to look at the world and physics has been using information theory -- and other related theories for decades. It is not a new thing, maybe it is more popular now than it has been before in the general population.
About the 'collapse of the wave function' -- that is just one interpretation (Bohr's I believe) of quantum theory. There are other interpretations that do not invoke that. I'm not an expert in QM though. But the jist is that the mathmatics, and QM is one of the most tested theories ever in detail beyond belief -- it has never been shown wrong -- still there is the fundamental problem of unifying QM with general relativity. An unsolved problem. It's when people try to describe the math with words that pertain to our experience that one gets confusion and different interpretations. But that is not so surprising.
Physicists will take anything into their tool box, their constructs, etc. that has a mathematical structure. Lots of physicists, computer scientists, biologists .. use information theory.
"About "What I mean by "looking elsewhere" is to treat physical systems (i.e. the real world) as "simulations."
SciFi,
This particular "type" of "simulation" or experiment of the real world would not even work on a blind person, because the mere sound of it is blatantly fallacious as illustrated by the "collapse of the wave function." Are you getting the "jist" of this "type" of "mathmatics"?
I think there's more to the wave function collapse than Bohr - his contribution was the "Copenhagen Interpretation," as I recall. As I understand from recent books/articles, is that the CI has been replaced with better interpretations - but the debate seems to continue. I'll dust that stuff off and glance back through it and see if I can't give a better response in the morning.
@SS: Contstructor Theory is new to me - just what I read at lunch. I will have to read more about it before I can have much of an opinion. What I have read does sound interesting. Thank you for pointing me at it - it does seem to be along the lines of what I was describing and it does seem to be the newest game in town.
True - that's the point (should I bother digging through old stuff then?). As great as QM is, we still don't have a good grip on what it means - the interpretations are still being debated.
This is also interesting in connection to Constructor Theory:
“Once you have eliminated the impossible,” the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes famously opined, “whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
FFS: Karma -> Religion -> String Theory -> Collapsing Wavefunctions -> WTF? As I understand it... I will have to read more about this ... before I can participate in this pretend intellectual conversation.
Information Theory = Chaos = Shit does not come back to you because you caused it, it goes everywhere.
"I think this is one of the reasons that physics has started looking elsewhere and information theory seems to be the new(er) game in town."
HLHaller,
While one is up-to-date in the world of physics, he or she can also have a preference, such as quantum mechanics. For instance, it's tantamount to knowing the most current movement in music or art, but having a strong attraction to a prior movement, not so much for the movement as a whole but for some of its perpetually significant parts, as you will see as you continue reading.
"But Shannon’s ideas break down in the quantum regime so various research groups have been searching for an alternative formulation that will give quantum information the same theoretical footing that Shannon gave to its classical cousin." https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/deeper-than-quantum-mechanics-david-deutschs-new-theory-of-reality-9b8281bc793a
Now, since you are specifically discussing the "new(er) game in town," it is not Information Theory, making your present knowledge sound outdated. Having said that, the newest one is Constructor Theory, which you can familiarize yourself with here http://constructortheory.org/
However, contrary to what you seem to believe, quantum information is still playing a major, current role, certainly not being an old thing of the past, so to speak.
"But physicists have become increasingly interested in quantum information and its potential in cryptography and in quantum computing. Quantum information can be both a 1 and 0 at the same time. This among other exotic properties is what allows quantum computers to be so powerful and quantum cryptography to be perfectly secure.
But Shannon’s ideas break down in the quantum regime so various research groups have been searching for an alternative formulation that will give quantum information the same theoretical footing that Shannon gave to its classical cousin."
As to Information Theory:
"But there’s a problem his theory of information which has stumped physicists and mathematicians in recent years. This is that it only applies to classical information, the kind of 0s and 1s that make up ordinary digital code.
But Shannon’s ideas break down in the quantum regime so various research groups have been searching for an alternative formulation that will give quantum information the same theoretical footing that Shannon gave to its classical cousin.
That goal may now be a step closer thanks to the work of David Deutsch and Chiara Marletto at the University of Oxford in the UK. These guys have come up with a way to link classical and quantum information using a single theory that acts as a foundation for both.
Their new idea is called constructor theory and it is both simpler and deeper than quantum mechanics, or indeed any other laws of physics. In fact, Deutsch claims that constructor theory forms a kind of bedrock of reality from which all the laws of physics emerge.
Constructor theory is a radically different way of thinking about the universe that Deutsch has been developing for some time. He points out that physicists currently ply their trade by explaining the world in terms of initial conditions and laws of motion. This leads to a distinction between what happens and what does not happen.
Constructor theory turns this approach on its head. Deutsch’s new fundamental principle is that all laws of physics are expressible entirely in terms of the physical transformations that are possible and those that are impossible.
In other words, the laws of physics do not tell you what is possible and impossible, they are the result of what is possible and impossible. So reasoning about the physical transformations that are possible and impossible leads to the laws of physics.
That’s why constructor theory is deeper than anything that has gone before it. In fact, Deutsch does not think about it as a law of physics but as a principle, or set of principles, that the laws of physics must obey." Source: https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/deeper-than-quantum-mechanics-david-deutschs-new-theory-of-reality-9b8281bc793a
This is also interesting in connection to Constructor Theory:
“Once you have eliminated the impossible,” the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes famously opined, “whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
Comments are unmoderated. Blog owner is not responsible for third party content. By leaving comments on the blog, commenters give license to the blog owner to reprint attributed comments in any form.
Maybe.
ReplyDeleteNot being an obviously self centered dick is akin to setting your karma ship out to sea equipped with a decent crew and navigation system.
Everything else, such as looks, smarts, strength, kindness and being considerate are further upgrades.
You can get by without them, but they do make it smoother sailing and more likely to bring rewards.
Then of course you have pirates. Aka sociopaths :)
Aye matey! ;)~
DeleteKarma is comfort food for the empathic, a warm blanket of assurance that if you are good and kind the universe will be good to you in return. I cannot say it does not exist, but the social convenience of the concept makes it immediately suspect.
ReplyDeleteIt is a poetic quote to be sure, but can be explained without the emotional vineer and the suspicious weighting in favor of subjectively "good" behavior. The Law of Unintended Consequences and the physics behind the rippling properties of water discuss the same phenomenon.
Being agnostic, I can't fully buy into karma as it's usually discussed. However, I like to think of karma as the "imprint" we leave on the world.
DeleteIt's like this - if I make a habit of stealing gum from the liquor store, the person running the place will wise up and take measures. Maybe I'm banned (bad "karma" for me, but only me) or maybe the shop keeper moves the gum behind the register (maybe cold medicine would have been a better choice for this example). Now it's a hassle for me and everyone else - bad "karma" all around.
I think this sort of use of a karma concept has been useful to me.
The spiritual end... dunnoaboutthat...
I think we're saying the same thing, really - I just like playing with words. 8)~
DeleteC.C. It sounds as if you haven't experienced karma, yet. Ignorance is bliss.
DeleteBut by all means, keep believing it doesn't exist if it makes you feel better.
Your entire comment is a collection of logical fallacies. I look forward to a revision worth replying to. Good luck, FP.
DeleteWe don't know anything about the late Colleen Ritzer's private life, or
ReplyDeletepast life before she incarnated this time around, but I don't think the "karma
theory" fits her.
Colleen was a 24 year old math teacher from Danvers Mass. She had her whole
life ahead of her, and was on the road to accomplishment. She still lived with
her folks. She seemed aboveboard to all that knew her. One of her students,
14 year old Philip Chism, partook of a carefully planned assult, brutal rape,
and painful murder of her in Oct. 2014.
What "karma" was she paying for? And millions of other's who happen to be in
the wrong place at the wrong time? Even for all of M.E.'s "confessions," she
wouldn't desirve such a fate. So the karma theory only works if you are being
punished in this life, for what you did in a prior life.
There is no such thing as reincarnation, because the Bible says, "It is given to
all men to die ONCE, and then the judgement."
To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, I appreciate your reference of multiple incarnations because it is both central and necessary to the common definition and context of karma. Also key to the concept is a "whole-person" concept that defies modern/conventional ethic: all the mosquito's she swatted, mouse traps she serviced, and times she chose not to hold a door or tip the standard gratuity could coalesce into a counterweight that was later balanced by her brutal rape and murder. I cannot defend the point with rationale, but a look at the origins of the karma concept will validate the point.
DeletePlaying devil's advocate is fun. "to die once" may not refer to death of the body, but the death of a sinful spirit.
DeleteRegarding reincarnation in the bible.
Jesus said to his disciples:
"But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they have, just as it is written about him." Mark 9:13
"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him . . ." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. Matt 17:12-13
As he went along he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" John 9:1-2
Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return. Job 1:21
. . . when Melchigedek met Abraham Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Hebrews 7:10
And since we're talking bloodlines, I'm not Jewish or Christian. I'm Danish. Agnostic.
Grendel
If karma and incarnation are real, which I certainly can't assess, then I wonder what I did to deserve this strange and unsettling existence as someone so entirely different from most other human beings among them.
ReplyDeleteGenerally I do like the thought that everything has been previously determined by our past decisions though I doubt there's a soul in a spiritual or even religious sense which makes it kind of dissociated to think about my past lives' deeds... still good fun to toy around with this thought. c:
The Pali term "Karma" literally means action or doing. Any kind of intentional action whether mental, verbal, or physical, is regarded as Karma. It covers all that is included in the phrase "thought, word and deed".
ReplyDeleteGenerally speaking, all good and bad action constitutes Karma.
In its ultimate sense Karma means all moral and immoral volition.
Involuntary, unintentional or unconscious actions, though technically deeds, do not constitute Karma, because volition, the most important factor in determining Karma, is absent.
Many people (both believers and non-believers) have observed that in life, what goes around tends to come around. The betrayer gets betrayed, the thief gets robbed, and so on.
However, it's also true that many people seem to reap tragedy that is greater than anything that they have sown, particularly in comparison with other people. This is referred to as "ultimate justice".
A nonbeliever's perception of the world is built upon life in the flesh, because they don't know anything else.
So who decides what's right and wrong?
ReplyDeleteGood karma and bad karma.
When a predator like a wolf kills its prey, will it have bad karma for doing what comes naturally to it, will it be punished in its 'next life' for its cruel deeds. The whole idea of it is ridiculous.
When a wolf kills its prey the only karma it receives is 1) the animals go live somewhere else when they are on to whats going wrong because the wolf wasn't cautious enough 2) that the farmer who owns the animals is lurking about with a shotgun trying to stop it. 3) the sheep go mental and all attack the wolf.
DeleteMost of these are unlikely so the wolf doesn't care about karma, or heaven, or where the hell anyone thinks god is going to find 7 virgins for every good dead man. Its about the here and now, Karma happens now not in the next life. Heaven is lots of yummy sheep, right there in that field, and no-one is looking out for them...
Karma is this, I hit you and I'm too stupid to realize you're bigger than me, you hit me back and I break my nose.
Woosy Magical Thinking Karma is this: That hater who's daddy doesn't love him and got me sacked will get his just deserts one day.
Reality is: he is such a cocksucker and his boss is so narcissistic that they will both go on to do very well in life as they continue to overcompensate for their lack of manhood as they pretend they don't care that their wives divorced them for being arrogant putas. However they may find it difficult to run a business together staffed only by idiot graduate-sheep and needy-beta-orbiters who don't think for themselves, that their career will end with a whimper and they will die alone after a life of chasing the ghost of momentary glory they had in their youth when stupid weak enablers said they were cool.
Or not, it depends how self aware, how skilled, and how mindful they are.
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ReplyDeleteDrSciFi AS Anonymous December 3, 2014 at 1:56 AM
ReplyDelete"Unknowingly" talking about himself in here:
"Not being an obviously self centered dick..."
HLHaller December 3, 2014 at 4:52 AM
"...I can't fully buy into karma as it's usually discussed. However, I like to think of karma as the "imprint" we leave on the world." (as per images below)
DR.SCIFI AS Anonymous December 3, 2014 at 4:28 AM
"One of her students, 14 year old Philip Chism, partook of a carefully planned assult, brutal rape, and painful murder of her in Oct. 2014.
Even for all of M.E.'s "confessions," she wouldn't desirve such a fate."
HLHaller AS Nihilistic Mind December 3, 2014 at 5:22 AM
"If karma and incarnation are real, which I certainly can't assess, then I wonder what I did to deserve this strange and unsettling existence..."
HLHaller December 3, 2014 at 4:46 AM
"Aye matey! ;)~"
"CULPA" for the imbecilic and "karma-incriminating" comments above - (DrSciFi and HLHaller a.k.a. Béla Ferenc Dezső Blaskó) and as illustrated below:
http://wrongsideoftheart.com/wp-content/gallery/stills/ape_man_03_0.jpg
http://footage.framepool.com/shotimg/331251158-baby-bottle-tame-gorilla-basel.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iZodlmN7xus/U2LUukphxeI/AAAAAAAAB_M/-BMpe_X1N54/s1600/524974_631867153507008_2075202398_n.jpg
http://endlesspicdump.com/original/you%20gonna%20get%20raped%20gorilla.jpg
Depicting "Criminal Mind"
http://ak.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/1853503/preview/stock-footage-man-dressed-in-gorilla-costume-trying-to-get-out-of-cage.jpg
KARMA - continued -
ReplyDeleteTHE "DUD EGG" EPISODE as narrated by Dr.SciFi and HLHaller
AS >> Anonymous December 2, 2014 at 3:23 PM
THE PROJECTED THOUGHTS and JOINT "VENTURE" in IMAGES, too, of Dr.SciFi and HLHaller (featuring The Sadist with one of two being the masochist, but, as it were..."only in the bedroom"):
"Grendel, let me get this straight...you prefer text to actually meeting with her?
Granted, she does seem like a ditz, but at least if she's on her knees with mouth full, she might be bearable.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zO9yPFHYghI/UGPFtIs9g2I/AAAAAAAAKNg/fZ-nwWf9enQ/s1600/crossfit+angry+gorilla.jpg
STDs are easily avoided with condoms and a little common sense, so that excuse is weak.
I wonder.
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvBHmiEbQvSbbvJEQSHjRydvsfHcgFniXvKnfUBZ5umsr8xbbK
Do you prefer text because you prefer the fantasy? It's all too easy to talk about a sculpted body, 8 inch cock and all the ways you'd make a woman scream and cry with pleasure.
http://www.cinemascream.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/The-Ape-Man-still-2.jpg
But do you prefer the fantasy because you know you could not deliver in real life?
http://horrorpediadotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/ape-man-bela-lugosi-and-caged-gorilla.jpg
Can't handle seeing that look of disappointment flash in her eyes when she sees you?
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6f/92/57/6f92577385392a6bd15379b8143cd48c.jpg
Hate the faked moans and awkward silences, where you know the sexiest thought that crossed her mind was that she was going shoe shopping to console herself after this?"
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mEzTKtHXcJM/Uhmj2WCVcPI/AAAAAAAABxQ/LKqHSa-m2OA/s1600/charles-gemora.jpg
This one reminds me of a certain "picture"...
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqHmh_wB9dl8-_RzXYXQq9tYUqTI-QxctdrhmVTHXSbyRdAnoY
Better yet, a picture in "blue" that I saw...
Deletehttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqHmh_wB9dl8-_RzXYXQq9tYUqTI-QxctdrhmVTHXSbyRdAnoY
TO Dr.SciFi and HLHaller:
ReplyDeleteFormer Plaything December 3, 2014 at 5:41 AM
"However, it's also true that many people seem to reap tragedy that is greater than anything that they have sown, particularly in comparison with other people. This is referred to as "ultimate justice"."
This...a picture in "blue" dress-up that I recently saw on the internet...
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqHmh_wB9dl8-_RzXYXQq9tYUqTI-QxctdrhmVTHXSbyRdAnoY
AND OTHERS, TOO that I have (videos, too)...In other words: Are you getting the 'gist' of this?
I'm getting horny reading all of this mental masturbation. Somebody help me!
ReplyDeleteFor all those depressed souls who are either targeting and/or feeling targeted, and perhaps to those wondering about reincarnation, I give you this song, the theme from Disney's Malificent/sleeping beauty.
ReplyDeleteI know you, I walked with you once upon a dream.
I know you, that look in your eyes is so familiar a gleam.
And I know it's true that visions are seldom what they seem.
But if I know you, I know what you'll do.
You'll love me at once.
The way you did once.
Upon a dream.
How do you define the "gleam" in the eye of the song?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8waJ7W3QcJc
Grendel
Awww...
DeleteI like this one better. It has such beautiful imagery and message :)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r52A0LAkmzM
I wonder how people do not "believe" in karma. To me, karma is something tangible. Real life example: Last month a lawyer called me. Turns out he is working on this intellectual property case and needs information about events that took places in 1987, 1988 and 1989. (ok, yes I am somewhat old...). I know I have some information that can be helpful to one of the parties in the dispute. I may even have some paper trail. If the person had been anything but decent to me, if he had at all pissed me off all those years back, there is no way I would spend time providing and researching the information he needs. I am pretty sure they are talking about a large amount of money.
ReplyDeleteSo yes, what goes around comes around. And the past never goes away.
This is karma at work for you.
Hi O&W,
DeleteMany years ago I had someone who had been unpleasant to me call looking for help. I have to say telling him to "take a long walk off a short pier' was gratifying - the memory of it is still...enjoyable. If you call that karma, yeah - it's hard to deny that, I would think.
Did you see my follow up questions to feeling chilled? I am interested in hearing more of your experiences with it -
this sounds like revenge, no more no less. why dress it up as karma?
DeleteSame thing in this case.
DeleteIt's the flip side of O&W's story - in this case, the persons prior actions created unfavorable outcomes in the distant (unknowable) future.
The notion of karma, as I have come to understand it, might be summed up thus: it is the condition of our existence that is the result of our prior actions..
And yes, sometimes even undeserving people get screwed. I think that's what I might call bad luck, since I don't have a concept of my own existence before this one. But, if I did, I can see the temptation of applying the same reasoning - albeit, less informed.
so does the belief in karma make revenge sweeter?
Delete"Si vis me flere dolendum est primum ipsi tibi."
DeleteYeah - you know, I think there is something "sweet" about revenge coming to me. It's also a nice surprise.
DeleteKarma does not exist, the universe is amoral. The idea of "karma" is used to maliciously manipulate people, just like all religions.
ReplyDeleteOnly if you accept the concept of karma the way lazy Westerners do. The "My name is Earl" retarded notion that there is something keeping score and meting out justice.
DeleteSanta Claus for adults.
There is no great justice that the universe, god (or what-the-fuck-ever) doles out.
But there are consequences for our actions.
Yes, kids and good, hard-working people sometimes get royally fucked.
Yes, self centered assholes do run the earth and have a lot of fun at other people's expense without ever seeming to pay for it.
That's life.
To use the ship analogy again, sometimes the best ships with the best crew run into a storm. Or pirates. And lose everything.
Sometimes the nastiest pirate gets a big enough score to live like a king.
That's life.
Karma seems like a meaningless concept to me. I don't get it except at some vague intellectual level. Does anyone know how karma is related to the notion of evil, or if it is related at all?
ReplyDeleteI don't see it as good/evil as much as good versus bad as much as what we do has an effect on the world around us and we should be mindful of our actions since we live in this world.
DeleteIn a crude sense, I see it as "don't shit where you eat."
Blah! Boy did I botch that post. *cring* LOL!
DeleteDr SciFi, I studied yoga and such long ago. Karma is essentially about cause and effect, not necessarily tied to spiritual beliefs. It seems that wouldn't conflict too much with a sociopath trying to avoid bad results by controlling some of his or her actions.
ReplyDelete@SciFi and Harry, To the notion of evil.
ReplyDeleteI like Peter Seller's in a movie about a empathic, daft gardener who gathers a cult of followers. Life's a garden. You sow as you reap.
Now I realize that we all, including Buddha, shit. It's part of being a biological organism. Living food in, garbage out. In the instance of karma, it's about the quality of the shit, and yes, where you do it. From an ecological view,Toxins out into the water, soil and air makes for toxins inside the human body, hence science has discovered we all carry a toxic load, from our surroundings, aptly illustrating that human pollution in the environs comes right back at us. Also, forensics now use a toxic load reading of bones, etc., to find out where a murder victim grew up and lived and worked. In other words, our bones carry geographical and ecological information. This example shows that, like background radiation and fossil records, that certain aspects of life are undeniably recorded. There's also ideas like cosmic magnetic fields recording the memories of all biological life.
Back to the garden of good and evil. With what do we fertilize the garden?
The quality of Buddha's spiritual and presumably actual shit was composed of gene-bending loving ferts versus what the corporations, i.e., Monsanto, are tilling our soil with today. Toxins. His diet was mostly veggie, but he would eat meat if someone whose spirit was in a tune offered it to him.
As for the actual location of where Buddha shit, I would be surprised if it was near his supply of drinking water.
On the other hand, Sagan asked the Dali Lama what would happen if science disproved reincarnation. His holiness replied that Tibetan Buddhism would stop teaching it. But added that it would be difficult to prove.
Grendel
Hi Grendel,
DeleteI had a bit of a time following you, but including a reference to Being There at the beginning and closing with that Dali Lama statement - well... 8)~
Yes - how we treat the environment is, in my (not very humble *smirk and wink*) opinion a good example of Karma in action -
One of the things that I have long found so very attractive about Buddhism is the openness to changing ideas, especially towards science. It does make it easier for me to listen to what they have to say - even the parts I don't understand.
Is that, maybe, one of the characteristics of "our kind?" An inherent resistance to being motivated from without? Or is that more universal? (really asking)
Grendel, your meandering through Buddha's shit, forensic science, ecology, Sagan and cosmic magnetic fields is quite a treat.
DeleteI guess one of Newton's Laws -- for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction -- could also be interpreted through a Karmic (is that a word??) lens.
Except we know that those laws are only classical approximations of the real quantum mechanic, chaotic system -- where typical notions of causality (think also of general relativity) break down.
Can karma exist without causality?
btw I think that stuff about cosmic magnetic fields is crap. As I think Sagan said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. this is actually what statistical inference is based on too and it is how we make intelligent decisions in an uncertain world as Jaynes explains in his tome "probability and the logic of science". Our world is inherently probabilistic and causality is not so simple to work out in general even if we believe it exists.
Hi DocSF,
DeleteAs wonderful at making predictions as Quantum Mechanics is at making predictions, there is one criticism that has stuck with me and long bothered me (and others).
The fact is, that while is does a wonderful job of prediction (and setting boundaries of what that means), it really doesn't actually explain the how and why. If anything, it's demanded more answers to those ends (e.g. entanglement).
I think this is one of the reasons that physics has started looking elsewhere and information theory seems to be the new(er) game in town.
physics has always relied on mathematics. i have no idea what you mean by look elsewhere. i don't understand why knowledge that raises more questions, which is what knowledge often does, is a fault or criticism. I also don't know what you mean by how and why. we know an apple falls from the ground, from Newton, how is via an equation and why is due to the existence of gravity.
DeleteHi Doc,
DeleteNo question - I find more "truth" in math than just about anything else.
What I mean by "looking elsewhere" is to treat physical systems (i.e. the real world) as "simulations." In this way, everything is reduced to information, which is then examined/manipulated/etc. It's a topic that's been rattling around in the scientific media for some time, but it's been getting a lot of press the last five years or so. "Are we living in a simulation?" - that stuff.
What I'm getting at is that QM is, as I see it, a "black box" type of a process. It doesn't really do much of a job of explaining what is happening in the sense that we are still debating what it means for the wave function to collapse and when that happens - never mind why the wave function collapses (why would observation do that?).
These are the questions that QM raises that make it feel unsatisfying to me. It's a wonderful tool - one that keeps on giving. Gravity is in the same boat - for all of the great successes of physics we are still struggling to understand what gravity "is." (can you explain the Higgs Boson idea?)
HLHaller,
DeleteSee my comments below in relation to quantum mechanics and "the new(er) game in town," which is not your current knowledge. My comments below belong in this "thread," speaking of which, "string" theory has also fascinated me for some time. I would also call it a preference.
Doctor SciFi
DeleteDecember 4, 2014
at 4:57 AM
"physics has always relied on mathematics. i have no idea what you mean by look elsewhere.......I also don't know what you mean by how and why. we know an apple falls from the ground, from Newton, how is via an equation and why is due to the existence of gravity."
"Dr.SciFi,"
FROM https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/deeper-than-quantum-mechanics-david-deutschs-new-theory-of-reality-9b8281bc793a
"In other words, Deutsch has an impressive track record.
Only a fool would bet against the possibility that constructor theory could also become a mainstream idea in physics that will have profound consequences for our future understanding of the universe. Shannon, who died in 2001, would surely be impressed."
http://constructortheory.org/
HL, a lot of people, including experts in quantum theory find it unsatisfying, so you are not alone in that.
DeleteAbout "What I mean by "looking elsewhere" is to treat physical systems (i.e. the real world) as "simulations.""
Yes this is a fascinating way to look at the world and physics has been using information theory -- and other related theories for decades. It is not a new thing, maybe it is more popular now than it has been before in the general population.
About the 'collapse of the wave function' -- that is just one interpretation (Bohr's I believe) of quantum theory. There are other interpretations that do not invoke that. I'm not an expert in QM though. But the jist is that the mathmatics, and QM is one of the most tested theories ever in detail beyond belief -- it has never been shown wrong -- still there is the fundamental problem of unifying QM with general relativity. An unsolved problem. It's when people try to describe the math with words that pertain to our experience that one gets confusion and different interpretations. But that is not so surprising.
Physicists will take anything into their tool box, their constructs, etc. that has a mathematical structure. Lots of physicists, computer scientists, biologists .. use information theory.
"About "What I mean by "looking elsewhere" is to treat physical systems (i.e. the real world) as "simulations."
DeleteSciFi,
This particular "type" of "simulation" or experiment of the real world would not even work on a blind person, because the mere sound of it is blatantly fallacious as illustrated by the "collapse of the wave function." Are you getting the "jist" of this "type" of "mathmatics"?
https://www.edx.org/sites/default/files/course/image/banner/cs191x-detail-banner_0.jpg
RE: Source of Image - "collapse of the wave function" -
https://www.edx.org/course/quantum-mechanics-quantum-computation-uc-berkeleyx-cs-191x#.VIDNr_mSz84
Hi DocSF,
DeleteI think there's more to the wave function collapse than Bohr - his contribution was the "Copenhagen Interpretation," as I recall. As I understand from recent books/articles, is that the CI has been replaced with better interpretations - but the debate seems to continue. I'll dust that stuff off and glance back through it and see if I can't give a better response in the morning.
@SS: Contstructor Theory is new to me - just what I read at lunch. I will have to read more about it before I can have much of an opinion. What I have read does sound interesting. Thank you for pointing me at it - it does seem to be along the lines of what I was describing and it does seem to be the newest game in town.
not all interpretations require a collapse of the wavefunction...
DeleteTrue - that's the point (should I bother digging through old stuff then?). As great as QM is, we still don't have a good grip on what it means - the interpretations are still being debated.
Deleteindeed.
DeleteThis article, too, HLHaller...penned by none-other-than David Deutsch himself.
Deletehttp://nautil.us/issue/2/uncertainty/why-its-good-to-be-wrong
HLHaller,
This is also interesting in connection to Constructor Theory:
“Once you have eliminated the impossible,” the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes famously opined, “whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-meta-law-to-rule-them-all-physicists-devise-a-theory-of-everything/
FFS: Karma -> Religion -> String Theory -> Collapsing Wavefunctions -> WTF?
DeleteAs I understand it... I will have to read more about this ... before I can participate in this pretend intellectual conversation.
Information Theory = Chaos = Shit does not come back to you because you caused it, it goes everywhere.
I meant You reap as you sow. :)) A bit tipsy from tipping with a few friends.
ReplyDeleteGrendel
HLHaller -
ReplyDeleteDecember 4, 2014 at 4:14 AM
"I think this is one of the reasons that physics has started looking elsewhere and information theory seems to be the new(er) game in town."
HLHaller,
While one is up-to-date in the world of physics, he or she can also have a preference, such as quantum mechanics. For instance, it's tantamount to knowing the most current movement in music or art, but having a strong attraction to a prior movement, not so much for the movement as a whole but for some of its perpetually significant parts, as you will see as you continue reading.
"But Shannon’s ideas break down in the quantum regime so various research groups have been searching for an alternative formulation that will give quantum information the same theoretical footing that Shannon gave to its classical cousin." https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/deeper-than-quantum-mechanics-david-deutschs-new-theory-of-reality-9b8281bc793a
Now, since you are specifically discussing the "new(er) game in town," it is not Information Theory, making your present knowledge sound outdated. Having said that, the newest one is Constructor Theory, which you can familiarize yourself with here http://constructortheory.org/
However, contrary to what you seem to believe, quantum information is still playing a major, current role, certainly not being an old thing of the past, so to speak.
"But physicists have become increasingly interested in quantum information and its potential in cryptography and in quantum computing. Quantum information can be both a 1 and 0 at the same time. This among other exotic properties is what allows quantum computers to be so powerful and quantum cryptography to be perfectly secure.
But Shannon’s ideas break down in the quantum regime so various research groups have been searching for an alternative formulation that will give quantum information the same theoretical footing that Shannon gave to its classical cousin."
As to Information Theory:
"But there’s a problem his theory of information which has stumped physicists and mathematicians in recent years. This is that it only applies to classical information, the kind of 0s and 1s that make up ordinary digital code.
But Shannon’s ideas break down in the quantum regime so various research groups have been searching for an alternative formulation that will give quantum information the same theoretical footing that Shannon gave to its classical cousin.
That goal may now be a step closer thanks to the work of David Deutsch and Chiara Marletto at the University of Oxford in the UK. These guys have come up with a way to link classical and quantum information using a single theory that acts as a foundation for both.
HLHaller (connected to previous),
ReplyDeleteTheir new idea is called constructor theory and it is both simpler and deeper than quantum mechanics, or indeed any other laws of physics. In fact, Deutsch claims that constructor theory forms a kind of bedrock of reality from which all the laws of physics emerge.
Constructor theory is a radically different way of thinking about the universe that Deutsch has been developing for some time. He points out that physicists currently ply their trade by explaining the world in terms of initial conditions and laws of motion. This leads to a distinction between what happens and what does not happen.
Constructor theory turns this approach on its head. Deutsch’s new fundamental principle is that all laws of physics are expressible entirely in terms of the physical transformations that are possible and those that are impossible.
In other words, the laws of physics do not tell you what is possible and impossible, they are the result of what is possible and impossible. So reasoning about the physical transformations that are possible and impossible leads to the laws of physics.
That’s why constructor theory is deeper than anything that has gone before it. In fact, Deutsch does not think about it as a law of physics but as a principle, or set of principles, that the laws of physics must obey."
Source: https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/deeper-than-quantum-mechanics-david-deutschs-new-theory-of-reality-9b8281bc793a
HLHaller,
ReplyDeleteThis is also interesting in connection to Constructor Theory:
“Once you have eliminated the impossible,” the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes famously opined, “whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-meta-law-to-rule-them-all-physicists-devise-a-theory-of-everything/
Except some of us see the spice cargo ship who's going to India an bet on the curry...
ReplyDeleteStunning quote!
ReplyDelete