Forgive the intrusion on our regular scheduled programming. I'm working on a little project and would like some feedback (probably will leave this up for two days in a row for more time to think, respond, and interact). I've been trying to come up with a half dozen to a dozen ways that sociopaths think or methods of how they go about doing a particular thing that they find helpful or that other people would find helpful to either learn how to do or at least learn more about.
One that I thought about was a sociopath's ability to not feel guilt, or other ways to tame or otherwise interact with emotions (particularly negative ones?). Emotional detachment? Others?
Another thought was about how sociopaths might be more efficient or productive in certain aspects or have thought patterns or methods that can sometimes make them more efficient or productive. Ability to compartmentalize? To either hyper focus or not focus on something? Others?
Finally, I was thinking that there are ways that the sociopath sees the world, especially maybe in terms of power structures/hierarchies or utilitarianism or others?
Grace under pressure is a notible sociopathic trait. A "good" sociopath will
ReplyDeleteemploy them when they are on a hazardous mission, like espionage, or when
they are a "hired gun" or soldier of fortune or law enforcement agent.
Also, the sociopathic tendency to "be here now." Sociopaths don't engage in much self pity or regret about the past. They are like Mr. Spock. They must
FORCE emotion out of themselves for theatrical reasons, when they are on trial.
Casey Anthony and Jodi Arias, acted as through they could care less about the
people they killed. Scott Peterson cried out of one eye when shown films of his
wife Lacy. Drew Peterson had a gay old time, bantering with reporters. And don't
forget phoney politicans like Edwards and Slickster Bill (Who also cried out of
one eye.) And She Brack A Brack who takes advice from race hustlers like
Sharpton who have bonn a fidee blood on their hands. The days of the U.S.A.
are numbered.
Anon...
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This is a helpful post, thank you ME. I'm not a sociopath but on occasion I seem to be able to tap into the ability to distance or remove myself from difficult emotions. This is a way of compartmentalizing and is very useful. I want to be open to pleasant emotions - humor, affection for people and animals, but not when people or myself get overwhelmed with feeling sorry for themselves and playing victim or trying to make me feel guilty or bad about hard choices (meaning the lesser of 2 so-called evils). Sorry I can't express it any better than that. I can turn it on and off when push comes to shove, so to speak. It's life a life raft for when any emotional tsunami is starting to crest. just fold my feelings up and watch till it passes over, then clean up the mess it leaves behind. Then little by little, normal me takes over.
ReplyDeleteMaybe none of this makes sense or maybe doesn't answer the question. If not then I just won't take it personally.
My thought patterns are usually quite simple, and I'm assuming that they apply (with certain differences) to most socios out there. Mostly everything follows some sort of script. For instance, when I want something, there's a basic thought pattern that emerges, along the lines of the following:
ReplyDelete- "Can I get via legal / moral means?" If the answer is yes, then comes the question:
- "Can I do it legally with minimal effort?" If yes again, then I'll take the legal, moral path. If no, I go to
- "How can I do it while negatively impact the minimum number of people and keep my effort as low as possible?"
This isn't even conscious, it all occurs almost automatically. Ability to compartmentalize, focus, and plan means that there's an underlying sort of script / scenario for most of the situations I find myself in, for instance when I have to empathize with someone in a social context. I hear the words, I analyze the expressions / body language, I wait for them to stop complaining / confessing / whatever, and I make an equally sad face and say something along the lines of "Oh Dear, that is so sad, I can only imagine how bad it must've been". The only variable is the emotion the speaker is trying to convey, be it anger, sadness, remorse, or any other one. This type of unconscious activity allows my mind to focus on other things at the same time, and I've found that with a bit of effort I can maintain a reasonable conversation with someone while thinking about a whole array of different things.
Point is, we socios seem to be able to do a lot of things on a deeply subconscious level, like some sort of autopilot for a whole variety of things that neurotypicals consciously do. The downside seems to be that other activities (negative feelings, empathizing, remorse, guilt) we need to consciously force ourselves to feel, while for the rest of the people they simply come naturally.
looking at thing from a risk vs reward prospective
ReplyDeleteI am wet for u.
Delete"I am wet for u."
Deletehttp://waldinadotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/bela-logusi-1.jpg?w=880
"I am wet for u."
Deletehttps://ainsworthandfriends.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/annex-lugosi-bela-mark-of-the-vampire_02.jpg
Damage and I will be licking your wet cunt soon. Delicious. Feed me like a vampire. Feed us your delicioso
Delete"Damage and I will be licking your wet cunt soon. Delicious. Feed me like a vampire. Feed us your delicioso"
DeleteLogic fail. You lose.
http://beladraculalugosi.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/bela-photographed-by-david-katzman1.png
Every time...
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°••°•°•°•°•
Deletewet cunt @ 5000 watts December 5, 2014 at 6:57 PM
Delete°••°•°•°•°•
There is only ONE. Ad infinitum.
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Anonymous
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Delete@wet cunt
DeleteI love you.
http://freedomfathers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/10.gif
Delete@damaged, ur queen loves u too. ��
DeleteThis topic captures the most important reason I visit this site, to learn something from sociopaths that I can apply. The second reason is to be able to get a sense of the possibility of someone being a sociopath when I first meet this person, and I hope we get back to this topic once more later (as we have seen this one covered here and there like the current topic but never really focused on it in a survey form).
ReplyDeleteUnder pressure of time, normally fearful encounter, and/or pain a socio may have
STRENGTHS: Ability to appear as a graceful, non-fearful, fast, under control decision maker
WEAKNESSES: Quick temper, rash decision making, violence
In a situation where majority would feel a need for self-evaluation (uncomfy conscience) and adjustment (possibly self-hurt with guilting, anxietying, depressing) a socio would have
STRENGTHS: Will not even register the need for such evaluation (limited conscience). What this suggests for us empaths to learn: forgive yourself actively and as quickly as possible and act in a way that enables that (a quick and sincere apology, go grab a dark chocolate, etc.)
This also ties into being in the presence, not past or the future. Quickly fix what just happened emotionally and resort back to presence. This is a better strength than what a socio has, which is living in half-presence (lack of so much emotional depth in present, and limited interest in the past and future, pretty much leaves a socio in half-presence on earth, hence boredom, hence applying creative skills towards manipulating others).
Since ME gave a hint of possibility if interacting, I wonder if she believes her love of music is usual or extremely unusual for a sociopath. I feel creativity in sociopaths is mostly geared towards human manipulation to get things fast, not artistic creativity as majority would define. A bank-robbery requires creativity, perfect murder requires creativity, brain surgery requires creativity. Socios in my mind are good for these kinds of creativity. A bit side-tracked here, but maybe this is something to learn too. Meaning be ready for some creative violence coming at you with some creative defense strategy, well-defined in advance.
"The second reason is to be able to get a sense of the possibility of someone being a sociopath when I first meet this person..."
DeleteSceli, this is a vain hope with a high-functioning sociopath (though I freely admit that low-functioning sociopaths are easy enough to identify).
Movie tropes aside, I am very difficult to identify in person. I fake empathy very, very well (I have had 30+ years of practice after all) - I academically grasp what the appropriate response is and synthesize it. What's even worse? When I tell you what I am after weeks of social exchange, you aren't going to believe me.
I'm not saying that I am a master chameleon or that a skilled psychologist would be unable to diagnose me, but you're not going to find a Spotter's Guide in the Q&A of this blog.
I agree with you in that it'd be significantly difficult diagnosing a high functioning sociopath, but the effort to try to diagnose a sociopath is worthwhile nevertheless.
DeleteLike in any category, high functioning constitutes less than 10%. Empaths tend to see others like themselves, so even if 10% of those empaths wake up to look for signs in 90% of the sociopaths it's worth it.
I look for basics, little things, little reactions. Like "I don't care" is a statement that empaths would normally avoid and some aspd's cherish. I look for the way the cigarette stub is thrown on the street (with some reservation, or none whatsoever, or what reaction I get if I give the looks). Flat effect, as in no facial expression change, or mismatched expressions, these all tell something.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying diagnose people on the spot when observing these things. But, these are little "I wonder" points, then comes little tests, how quick the person is in answering to certain questions (how much calculation time is there, how much 'expected answer blurt out' hits the fan).
I'm not stating these as a guide, but anyone who's been around a sociopath very closely and over a long-enough period can develop their own little check marks. Plus, all we're doing is defining relative values, identifying people's difference on a spectrum, and deciding how much more to engage these people in our lives. I'm just as uncomfortable with overly empathic people for example, they sure can guilt and depress occasionally.
Non-emotional relationships with sociopaths can be extremely rewarding. It's only a problem if you're doing too much for a sociopath and/or you're expecting too much from a sociopath. A good way to prevent either is to set the right distance, adjust the distance slowly over time, don't rush into anything. This is the same advice with empaths too, not to mention BPDs who are the ultra-emotional sociopaths for all practical purposes.
If you're visiting, say a romantic city, for a few days and a nonmobile aspd (just making sure you can't be followed back to your own town) in any form appears on your plate, I'd say don't miss the fun before you depart.
I guess the bottomline is to know ourselves and who we are dealing with. Both pursuits can be life long entertainment for a curious mind.
CC "When I tell you what I am after weeks of social exchange, you aren't going to believe me."
Deleteone thing I have learned is that if someone said this to me I'd take it seriously.
In a more general sense, I try to guess MBTI types, nationalities, orientation, education, and many other aspects - that sort of lens is fun, I think. Not just "socio spotting," but all of human interaction.
DeleteWe really do a whole host of silly things for a lot of silly reasons. Fun to watch -
DrSciFi, after reading your posts in the last dozen blog entries, I believe you probably do. You're also the exception- if more people believed it, looked past the smile and the warm laugh when I excuse my behavior by saying "okay, so I might be just a *little* sociopathic", I would wreak much less havoc in the world. Instead, they laugh with me and find it endearing in some counterintuitive way.
DeleteThat's why I refer to it as learning. Why do you find it endearing?
DeleteHi, As I've suggested in another post, most of the people I know with Sociopath traits seems to be hyperactive people, never stopping, with a never-ending energy.
DeleteI agree also with the lack of creativity, I would say that they are all interested with creativity, but nearly going nowhere on this issue.
They are using many time "copy" systems.
The best way to spot a Socio for me, is when they start to give orders...very directly. Associated with a change in their behaviour.
But it happens only after weeks/months...when the mask is falling down.
It is happening now with one of my "friends"...I'm now slowly taking her far from me, but without saying anything. She has noticed this, and when she has asked not direct questions to me about this, I did like if everything was like before, like I didn't notice anything.
Also, I say everytime "no" to her when she orders something. Then she is stopping directly, and becomes more nice.
I guess that with the time she will see that I'm not manipulable anymore (I was already few), and turn herself to other people, and mostly forget me.
I've noticed also that she is much more nice when we are only together, but she starts the show when we are a group.
So here is my new "technique", it seems to work, and I guess that i'll spot easier Socios with the experience.
But still I don't enjoy really this exercise, as it is not my natural functioning. Empaths like to enjoy life unsuspecting permanently. They are idealists...
There might be aslo a neurologic specificity that avoid them to protect themselves when they should. I'm searching now answers about this in different books/articles.
I've identified, with another Empath, that we do see that Socios give very directive orders (or attacks), we understand that it is an anormal order or attack(= we don't like it), but it is impossible for us to respond directly to it...
@DrSciFi
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Lala,
Delete"...but it is impossible for us to respond directly to it..."
Why? (not trying to ask the question in an "anormal" manner...just curious).
Hi HLHaller,
DeleteAs I said I'm now searching informations about this specificity/lack of reactivity of the Empaths. I've read yesterday about one specificity of empathy, named the "mirror neurons". These neurons makes us feel like the people front of us, a kind of mimetism. Mostly about emotions.
What is also interesting, is for example our capacity to learn a language with this mimetism...because we "mirror" in our brain the people speaking this language.
I can attest that it is exactly how I have learned two foreign languages, and especially one, for which I've never opened a book, and never took lessons( but I was in the country, and just I remember the way people speak, the sound they make, even if I don't know how to write exactly the word. And I was using this kind of "knowledge" to communicate).
So what is the interaction between these mirror neurons and a situation when someone is using anormal orders/attacks...I don't know yet...
Hi Lala,
DeleteIt sounds like you are referring to the fight/flight response, which is likely informed by the mirror neuron system. From what I gather, it sounds like you and your friend might be highly empathic and for that reason you react more strongly to "cues" from dominant personalities - socio or otherwise.
Your suggestion that being very emotionally perceptive is helpful for learning languages is an interesting one. If it is something that really is an outcome of having stronger affective empathy, than you may be suggesting a downside to "sociopathy." Bravo! 8)~
The consistent gain from my disorder is a more complete toolkit to address a problem set.
ReplyDeleteWhen an empath solves a problem, they operate within a box of social acceptability and give consideration to how their solution will impact other parties. Their inherent empathy and compassion retards their willingness or even ability to select a decision that is horrifying to a "reasonable person" or could cause harm/shame/discomfort/embarrassment to others. As a socio, there are no inhibitors to remove the second set of solutions.
As an aside, I think this is where the "bad" sociopath idea arises from- the reality is that I am as likely to help someone as I am to hurt them, because they aren't "real" to me. They are obstacles or accelerants between me and my goal and are treated accordingly. Because an empath has a chemical/cognitive resistance to one of those options, it stands to reason I am likely to harm people more frequently than they do.
To say it another way...
Empath Options: X X X X X Y
Socio Options: X X X Y Y Y
Empath Complaint: That socio picks Y so much more than I do! That's so wrong!
Cold Catharsis:
DeleteEvery word of that resonates a LOT with me. I'm not a sociopath, but my empathy is still low enough that I can set emotions completely aside when I need to and make decisions based on nothing but logical and logistical thinking. I've pissed more people off in my lifetime than I can count with that strategy. Doesn't matter, though, if I'm being honest. I'm a plotter and a calculating type. So I have no problems playing just as dirty as is necessary. The only ones who are exceptions from that are my children.
A very small part of me feels some pangs of conscience for that when I think about it too much. Not enough to get me to change, though. It's worked far too well, far too many times. The pangs just get thrown into my dark room where I can go back to ignoring them.
I swear I don't truly realize how slithery I can be until I write these things out and read over them.
@CC: I like the introduction of probability (I'm a stat geek *smirk*). My affinity for calculating probabilities aside, I think the idea that it's more a matter of how often rather than a certainty that we will act in a given way is useful and important. Amusingly, the flip side of the "it's not fair" picture might be socios saying, "why don't you do that dummy?"
DeleteAt least that's how I feel when that sort of scenario comes up...
@Anon: "I swear I don't truly realize how slithery I can be until I write these things out and read over them."
I don't know how long you've been hanging around - you Anon's all look the same to me. ;p
I went through a bit of the same - and still do. In reflecting on a recent hoedown, I came to see my sadistic side in a new, honest way. It was refreshing and it has given me something to think about.
This forum continues to be a very useful mirror for me -
HLHaller, how do you know when you are being honest with yourself. Is that also a matter of probability?
DeleteHL:
DeleteI've been around for several months now. And I'm the one who can called it a hoedown the other day. I just forgot to use my signature (N) at the end of that last post.
The honesty is refreshing for sure. I'm not sure how much there is to think about it, though. I mean, what will happen if you really think about it? Do you think it will change anything for you? I don't think it would for me. Acknowledgement is about as deep into that abyss as I feel like going.
N
Hi Doc and N,
DeleteIt's apropos that N would have posted that! 8)~
I think you're both interested in the same thing - or at least related things.
Until about six months ago, I never thought of myself as having any sort of empathic "deficiency." I knew how I operated and navigated life, but I really didn't think I was all that different - more logical, maybe. Then I read the book and came here...and started talking to people here and IRL.
I realized what I had always had trouble putting my finger on - I knew I didn't relate to most people. I knew I was different. Because I'm an engineer and I work with more than my fair share of folks "on the [autistic] spectrum," I just figured I was just some variant of that. It wasn't quite right, but their world made more sense to me than "empaths."
So here I find myself and it's in my nature, when I find something new and interesting, to go with it. I have said numerous times that I see this as my "Assholes Anonymous" meeting - and I am an ASSHOLE. I do not deny that -
So we have "the hoedown."
It's not my first "hoedown," but it is my first on-line version. I am used to breaking people down face to face and, usually, with an audience (mostly empaths). For the sake of the audience, there is a steady stream of "I hate this" and "I wish this wasn't like this," and so on. Even with all that, most people never look at me the same again - without it, though, I would cease to be able to function.
Because this is anonymous, I didn't have to make those comments and, more importantly, I was quite aware of what and how I was feeling. I realized how I enjoyed it and having an audience for my part - unapologetically.
This is new to me. I've never allowed myself to indulge in that sort of unabashed sadistic joy before.
That was a whole new experience and one that really made me reconsider myself.
Not for nothing, but for a guy pushing 50, that's...something to think about.
FWIW, I think of it kind of like what I understand a Shinto version of "saying grace" is: thanking the beings that gave their lives for my meal. I am grateful for SS for taking the beat down so I can learn this about myself.
The gratitude is sincere.
DeleteDoc SF: It is almost certain that honesty has a probability component - trying to avoid bullshitting ourselves can be a full time job...
DeletePredictability II.
Delete"I am grateful for SS for taking the beat down so I can learn this about myself."
HLHaller,
Beat down?
No.
And, frankly, that is because you still don't understand what happened. There was strength in what I did, but not according to your "version" of it. You seem to believe that you have used me in order to arrive to this "realization," but, in REALITY that is not so, because, once again, you still don't understand what happened (i.e., my methods, that is).
Think again.
All in all, considering your entire comment, there is such a thing as HISTORY.
HLHaller, that's the real source of terror isn't it? As a society they are okay with villains, those compelled by madness or circumstance to do evil in the world. Watch a movie, read a book- they love black-hearted brigand.
DeleteMe, I feel no such compulsion. I am just as likely to aid someone as I am to rip them apart- for no reason discernable to an empath. That unpredictability, coupled with the horrifying thought that I might get someone fired or hurt because I want to park closer to the office, fills an empath's heart with ice-cold fear.
Well put CC.
DeleteI've long thought that the sorts of media (books, music, movies, etc.) people are attracted to an interesting reflection of what is going on inside them. I think people are interested in "villains" because they a) fear him/her and want to understand and fear them less, b) relate to him/her and it's a mirror into their own world, or c) it's just what happens to be in front of them at the moment. Usually a short conversation will give you an idea of which it is (masks and all not withstanding).
All of the above.
DeleteStoic acceptance of reality, even things like terminal diagnoses
ReplyDeleteruthlessness/creativity
not judging
not thinking about the past or future (not reacting emotionally to thoughts of past/future)
focus
the downside is not having a prosocial attitude and being impulsive/bored, which manifests as recklessness, callousness and self-endangerment
if sociopaths would do things to develop compassion for themselves and others we'd probably enjoy having them around more.
well as a non sociopath i think no guilt/remorse isn´t a trait i´d like to have...
ReplyDeleteguilt/remorse is something i feel when i made a mistake i actually regret, like hurting somebody who doesn´t deserve it.
The only regret in hurting, humiliating, alienating or back stabbing a socipopath or psychopath is that´s normally being long overdue.
Even if guilt/remorse is used/implanted by you assholes/evil bastards (sry, just the common people words for sociopaths), it´s something that
encourages change in a natural way. In the sense that my emotions force/encourage a change in thinking patterns, where i find the outcome undesireable.
You on the other hand seem to have problems with change, well you can change your masks all the time, but i think we all understand that these
masks aren´t your true self. you don´t give a fuck about others and never will(be able), therefore the need of masks.
as empathic people have to invest energy to turn off compassion, guilt, remorse i think you have to invest energy to turn it on.
imo the drawbacks far outweigh the benefits. Loosing friends, family, interest in once loved things is rather sad, more so as it seems inevitable with you.
You also seem to be blind to some basic compassion related things, witch are obvious for most non-sociopaths. like you tend to completly disregard compassion in some arguments, and don´t realize that what you say is utterly cruel.
More so as it doesn´t seem to be a contious decision on your part, but rather a strange urge you can´t controll for longer periods.
i believe you´re emotional criples with some benefits, but still lack the ability to walk/run. as much as you pride yourself to be able to fool somebody, it´s not that empathic can´t do that, but rather don´t want to do that.
You´re idea about benefits are something between childish an computer-ish. You don´t see reward/gain in the imo most important things in life... Other people, rather than what they offer you. Raising a child must be hell for you (or/and the child).
The only quality i´d like to have is being able to read other people´s emotion like you do.
seeing emotional reactions of other people as clearly as you do is maybe just possible if you can compare it with not having any. like people who can´t smell see others reaction to good/bad smells very clearly.
You seem to be "fully" knowing who you are at a rather young age which seem to me the biggest "advantage" altough you never develop the most complicated aspects of your self(emotions).
Rage/anger management is strangely off regarding how much you seem to be in controll of yourself otherwise.
esspecially regarding honest critique about you, if avoidance (first tactic) doesn´t work.
You´re able to make "friendships" rather easily altough you do this by switching masks because you know that behind that masks the face is ugly as shit :-(
Summerizing:
Seeing the emotions VERY deeply instantly, and imagining beeing a fantastic person while being a lonely asshole seem rather beneficial.
I meant others imagening you as fantastic at the end ;-)
DeleteThe emotional person sees your post as a stream-of-consciousness rant about how you don't like sociopaths. The sociopath sees that you suck at typing and that you can't express your thoughts.
DeleteOn a more serious note... sociopaths have the ability to get results without having to worry about offending someone or hurting feelings or any of that crap. Most sociopaths are pragmatic rather than utilitarian.
yeah...I thought that might happen...
DeleteHLHaller,
Deletehttp://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/gif-movie/matrix_970380334_20130407171207_s4.gif
There is no spoon - 8)~
Deletemeh... just tried to point out that regarding labels "sociopath" isn´t very judgmental or bad, and that your "abilities" are "disabilities" which come at a rather high price, which make them imo undesireable.
Deleteyou remind me of a blind person who points out that i can´t listen to music while being distracted by the sunset, not realizing that i can close my eyes any time, but rather watch the sunset while listening to music.
on the less serious note: there was no offense intended, i like my sociopathic friends very much, but it´s a bit tiresome to manage you as you´re utterly suprised when your actions have consequenses, and disrespect for others doesn´t come naturally for me.
on the other hand, sucking at typing comes naturally ´cause i just don´t care.
@HLHaller:
i was quite sure you thought that might happen, altough i´m not sure you thought that i´m sure ;)
@neo:
i find it rather funny that the merovingian lost the keymaker because of a blowjob rather than neo playing around with bullets... cause and effect.
@Anon: Whoops! That comment ended up in the wrong thread...
DeleteM.E., Yes, the POSSIBILITIES are endless! I definitely like this post, since it involves a different sort of creativity, or better yet, a diversified approach to actually thinking of the sociopathic mind beyond the usual, old "checklist." I mentioned the endless possibilities when contemplating this particular subject that you are exploring, and, come to think of it, this is my primary reason for being so fascinated by the world of quantum mechanics (i.e., with an artistic twist to it, though), a subject that was brought up yesterday. To me, it is a world of never-ending possibilities, evolving akin to "art in motion."
ReplyDeleteI, for one, entertain more than one thought at the same time, because I think in different possibilities. It is the way my mind works, a mode of thinking if you will, constantly thinking of new ideas or projects. I am not sure about sociopathic people, but I have always been this way. Actually, I am asking myself if some of them do, and how it works for them? I wonder if you, M.E., have some insight about it?
I truly like your post, because your writing is similar to mine in some areas (i.e., not just this post, though, which has been something I have been meaning to mention), and your choice of words denote what I mentioned above, tapping into the ever-growing stream of possibilities (i.e., referring to "stream" of mind, a "flow" of consciousness). And by the way, and this is just an observation, I also use the words "or" and "others" quite a lot, my tendency being connected to what I wrote so far, as well as to unique creativity. All in all, you sound like a creative person, too. :)
I need to run at the moment, but I'll come back later with some possibilities.
we're creative cause we're not flexible, so we have to be creative and that helps us to act better in different situations.
ReplyDeletewe always think we're right, so we do wut we find right, and that makes our lives OUR lives.
we see the world and we analyze it. so we always have more information about everything around, and that helps. really helps.
we only care about wut people say or think about us when we like it. so we only gain things that make us stronger.
the thing i think is the most important is our analyzing power. when y analyze sth y see it through. y make more rational decisions and so less mistakes. for ex. we know when to lie and when not. that's because we actually know wut lying does. we know wut will happen after a while. we think rationally.
we like ourselves. so we care for ourselves. and we only see ourselves so we don't get nervous most of the time cause we understand that we do things for ourselves.
we think we're better than anyone around and we actually become better than anyone around.
we don't spend our time on things that don't have the best result. even spending time with friends is a part of that. or for ex. everytime i start doing sth, i first ask myself how much experience or payoff i'm gonna get. i mean doing ANYTHING.
i'll think of more in the next 2 days.
how long did it take for you to completely realize what you are and how to manipulate and control the 'others'?
Deletewhat happens when they find out exactly what you are? are you that smart then?
M.E., I am going to begin what I started earlier with a distinct focus on high-functioning sociopaths and/or those that have high IQs. Reading through the comments, I see a predominance of negative characteristics/thinking, which is not always the case with some sociopaths. So, keeping this in mind, which applies to all of the other commentators reading my comment, I am going to take this a step FURTHER, emphasizing the diverse possibilities which also characterize gifted and talented individuals. In doing so, and based on some extended studies and observations, I am creating a working parallel between the two in some aspects of thinking and behavior.
ReplyDeleteHighly intelligent sociopaths differ intellectually from others (i.e., other sociopaths and non-sociopaths) and are more sophisticated, more global thinkers who have the capacity to generalize and to see the complex relationships in the world.
When working on a project or task, they have a heightened capacity to appreciate the wonderment in our universe. They can be deeply attracted to all sorts of areas, even those that most non-sociopaths would not envision a sociopath taking into consideration.
This type of sociopaths craves interchanging ideas with other like-minded sociopaths, having the desire to engage in intense intellectual discussions.
They have an inner urge to fulfill their own expectations.
Then there is their sense of humor, which differs from others and consists often of subtle or dark jokes, intricate teasing or puns. They often find that their jokes are received with silence because they are not understood.
They have difficulty understanding the seemingly shortsighted behavior of others.
They have the ability to predict consequences, see relationships, and foresee problems which are likely to occur.
Because highly intelligent sociopaths know more what is at stake, risk taking for them may be more difficult than for others because it may take longer for them to decide.
They often develop their own method of learning and grasping concepts which can lead to conflict with others who don’t use or understand their method.
What would help these highly intelligent sociopaths is taking some time for inner life experiences, and to understand themselves. Because it takes quiet time to clarify thoughts and feelings, they need contemplation, solitude and daydreaming.
They relate best to others who share their interests.
They may have a small circle of friends or sometimes only one.
They are independent thinkers who do not just automatically accept the decisions of their supervisors. They function well with those who are accepting of their attitudes and ideas.
I meant to write continue what I started earlier in the first paragraph. At that time (i.e., second thought), I was also thinking of beginning this specific comment with what I started earlier. However, on yet another thought, it could be seen as a beginning of something else, since I took things further in this comment. Possibilities... :)
DeleteSo, given that this sounds like a great description of me, you're saying I actually am a sociopath, or I'm just a highly intelligent individual?
DeleteWhat with other comments that remind me I never cried at family funerals, I'm very stoic, I never got the idea of empathy in history lessons at school and later rarely had compassion unless it matches me feeling sorry for myself and I believe any form of guilt is basically fear of not getting away with things, or a symptom of dopamine withdrawl ...
Plus the sick sense of humor and all my major irritations being essentially based on pride and a recent awareness that I might be projecting my crap on to others when I assume that their criticisms are them projecting their crap onto me, with otherwise an excellent ability to read peoples emotions and see all their insecurities...
I am essentially a sociopath that cant be arsed to manipulate people, (though I was an amazingly cocky arguer when I was younger) and so lack that particular practiced skill, so I manage to easily pass as normal with aspie tendencies by wearing the mask matching the stereotype I was given?
Hmmm... Anyone offering free brain scans?
To M.E. (continued):
ReplyDelete“Another thought was about how sociopaths might be more efficient or productive in certain aspects or have thought patterns or methods that can sometimes make them more efficient or productive. Ability to compartmentalize? To either hyper focus or not focus on something? Others?”
Because they have these abilities, what would help is to use them, as well as their insights, for the betterment of the world. They can work on a PROJECT that really interests them, and in doing so, their other tendencies such as irritation toward others when provoked, would be greatly reduced and altogether avoided. In time, due to shift in focus, such tendencies would become minimal in their minds due to their replacement with other things. It would also help with their physical health, because some highly negative reactions do take a heavy toll on the human body.
This type of sociopaths has an understanding of the complexities and interrelatedness of global affairs and has the capacity to replace shortsighted, short-term reactions with careful overall solutions.
“I've been trying to come up with a half dozen to a dozen ways that sociopaths think or methods of how they go about doing a particular thing that they find helpful or that other people would find helpful to either learn how to do or at least learn more about.”
Having been highly interested in this area, I have been coming up with my own, uncommon ideas for the re-programming of one’s brain through the high absorption of new ideas and practices, acting as an superimposed layering of previously acquired thoughts, beliefs and behaviors. It is what I call the creative-layering-method which would work, layering these ideas and practices over and over in one’s mind until their goal is achieved over an extended period of time, since it would take more than, let’s say, a couple of weeks. As we all know, the brain is a muscle, so exercising and conditioning it through these superimposed, personalized layers of new ideas and behavior can prove to be successful in terms of re-programming. Now, it does not have to be seen as an “experiment,” or a boring or seemingly-forceful project. There are original, highly exciting and distinctively magnetic ways of making it work. In fact, I would not even call it re-programming, because it sounds so mechanical. I do like the terms Innovative, Personalized Layering. The important idea here is the personalized part, since what would work for one person would not necessarily work for another, creating a customized layering of superimposed concepts and practices. While this may seem like a far-fetched example, it is like creating a thoroughly customized "gift basket" for a person, thinking of his or her brain as a place needing to be filled with layers and layers of new, inventive or groundbreaking, and highly exciting "GIFTS."
So, as I previously wrote, the possibilities are truly endless!
very very good! really.
DeleteThank you, tessa.
DeleteVery well put. You're a gifted writer.
DeleteGrendel
Thank you very much, Grendel. :)
DeleteStay Smart, Do you know anyone who has employed your concept of innovative personalized layering? It's an impressive strategy in many respects. The calculating brain can only do so many functions at once. Layering the consciousness with new thoughts, playing with ideas, daydreaming and reading fiction, consciously adopting new behaviors sounds plausible. After all, that's what meditation, eureka moments, religious awakenings, do, too. I think your ideas are original within the context of sociopathy. Once the brain expands its borders, changes must occur. Though what that change might be exactly for some of the black-hearted, I cannot say. However, any being that can stand in awe of the universe or of anything, for that matter, is worth having around. Least from the viewpoint of a conscious universe.
DeleteFor myself, engaging in an observer consciousness, rather like seeing yourself from the astral plane while you are saying something stupid, or are caught in some mental loop of destruction, has helped me enormously. Especially in times of depression and isolation. God does play dice, if he plays at all.
Grendel
Grendel,
DeleteI am still developing my method, and thanks for seeing my strategy as impressive.
"The calculating brain can only do so many functions at once. Layering the consciousness with new thoughts, playing with ideas, daydreaming and reading fiction, consciously adopting new behaviors sounds plausible."
I meant for the layering to happen over an extended period of time until a new, distinctive way of thinking takes hold or becomes rooted in the conscious mind.
"After all, that's what meditation, eureka moments, religious awakenings, do, too."
This also has a rather practical side to it, since it involves working directly with the conscious mind. Of course, what affects the conscious mind also affects the subconscious mind, forming and growing into a new, creative outlook.
I will most likely get more ideas as I develop it into something entirely applicable. :)
M.E. tnx for the website. again.
ReplyDeleteI am wondering what is the difference between a highly intelligent sociopath and an artificial intelligence android? It’s no wonder that Elon Musk is worried about artificial intelligence. Sociopath World: Famous sociopaths: Elon Musk? Of course ME, way ahead of me on Musk being a sociopath. I guess he doesn’t like the competition.
ReplyDeleteRadical Agnostic,
DeleteSince it sounds like the subject interests you, there is some information in here pertaining to AI, but it doesn't have anything to do with highly intelligent sociopaths. The article was written by David Deutsch, a brilliant physicist.
http://aeon.co/magazine/technology/david-deutsch-artificial-intelligence/
"But no brain on Earth is yet close to knowing what brains do in order to achieve any of that functionality. The enterprise of achieving it artificially — the field of ‘artificial general intelligence’ or AGI — has made no progress whatever during the entire six decades of its existence.
Why? Because, as an unknown sage once remarked, ‘it ain’t what we don’t know that causes trouble, it’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so’ (and if you know that sage was Mark Twain, then what you know ain’t so either). I cannot think of any other significant field of knowledge in which the prevailing wisdom, not only in society at large but also among experts, is so beset with entrenched, overlapping, fundamental errors. Yet it has also been one of the most self-confident fields in prophesying that it will soon achieve the ultimate breakthrough."
What about the concept of the singularity, where man merges seamlessly with machine? Not quite the same as AI, but still a leavening of corporeal (sensation) humanity with non-feeling, mechanical parts. How would human consciousness change if we sacrificed our frail bodies to instead reside in immortal machines? Recently, technology has created a device that helps the blind to see images; but it does not appear to create the same kind of vision in the brain as what the normal eye perceives.
DeleteGrendel
Science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke wrote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Stay Smart, We are a long way from inventing something that thinks like a human, or for that matter, fucks like a human. On the other hand, bee hives and ant nests, in their own way (by the demanding "test" "asked' by evolution -- that is, "Can you survive?") are very intelligent indeed. Not in terms of writing plays, symphonies and web pages contemplating empathy and lack thereof, but as the old cliche mumbles, "If you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail." The "AGI" may be among us already; just too clever to let us know it's around and messing with us.
DeleteAnd as Anonymous says about "the singularity," we may be in the
process of mating with machine, not by inserting prick into cunt and trying to start a fire by rubbing, but by wiring our complex yet very confused, emotional, and fairly crazy bio computers to the data processing calculator.
I predict something is going to surprise us. Or as Yeats said,
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
[Of course, that does not compute.]
Ah yes - The Omega Point. The folks at MIT (among others are working on that). That is an interesting notion - what will that look like?
DeleteI read Arthur C. Clark's Rama series (several written with Gentry Lee). In that story, there is a "character" that refers to itself by saying "we are the intelligence that governs The Node." This "character" is what I imagine a post Omega Point entity might look like. But it's a reach -
Radical, "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
DeleteMere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."
True. Equally, for normal, socio and empath.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
Very true.
Grendel
"Consolation."
DeleteRadical,
These are a few of my favorite lines by Yeats:
"O but there is wisdom
In what the sages said;
But stretch that body for a while
And lay down that head
Till I have told the sages
Where man is comforted."
Grendel,
DeleteI agree. Best line: "Are full of passionate intensity."
Empathy and recognising emotion in others is something I have a great deal of trouble with due to my issues with schizophrenia, and it usually just causes me difficulties.
ReplyDeleteI can, however, imagine that the lack of intense distracting emotion can be incredibly useful for thinking rationally and logically.
Guilt and remorse is another thing which gives me hassle, and I can also say that being free of these pesky feelings (as sociopaths are) would be huge relief and would help to maintain a "clear mind".
Most human beings spend far too much of our time and mental energies dwelling on past regrets.
Hang in there. Not from a rope but from your very apparent humanity.
DeleteGrendel
Anon,
DeleteLike Grendel wrote, hang in there.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSqcojzoKH2RhRqTTGtIAiS7-M3BpkhxiuxxU9064ZgPMs__w-F
http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/gif-movie/matrix_970380334_20130407171207_s4.gif
SS "What would help these highly intelligent sociopaths is taking some time for inner life experiences, and to understand themselves. Because it takes quiet time to clarify thoughts and feelings, they need contemplation, solitude and daydreaming."
ReplyDeleteI really love this line because it rings so true. Everyone needs to contemplate their inner life, and when they do, usually good things do happen, inside and out. When people, whether they are normals, empaths or socios, do not lead the self examined life, all living creatures around that person suffers. Whether it's a person, an animal or vital microbes in the environment.
Grendel
Grendel,
DeleteYes, this is essential, and it is also a part of my Innovative, Personalized Layering method, but, as I wrote before, I am also focusing on the practical aspects of it in terms of full, working applicability. What is also important is that my creation is exciting, appealing and full of possibilities. :)
"Machine-people" exist, according to the zodiac: Libra & Virgo, the latter known as a pocket-calculator personality. Scorpio sees everything as a "power-structure", once inside this World life soon can seem desperate (if the visitor is a normal empath). And so does psychopaths. The reason they do it is because life is constructed that way. They just have no illusions & see what they see. Some kid-virgoans even start reading huge amounts of books "in self-defence" (refusing to be patronized by older people with more knowledge). That is psychopathic behaviour..
ReplyDeleteBah. I cannot believe that all virgos or scorpios or whatever are born to be pocket calculators. Show me the proof. Are you an astrologer? Have you studied it?
DeleteGrendel
Anon -
Deletehttp://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6ts4zTHhR1roc7alo1_400.gif
I meant this Anon:
Delete"The reason they do it is because life is constructed that way."
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6ts4zTHhR1roc7alo1_400.gif
Grendel has a valid point about the astrology question, and I'm adding a "machine-people" query.
Deletehttp://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltglvsE0c51r0kpmro1_500.gif
And this is why astrology is bullshit. I'm an Aquarius, which is basically the extreme opposite of a sociopath, but I'm at the very least highly narcissistic.
DeleteBee-Keeper where art thou, show yourself..
ReplyDeleteI am here
DeleteWhere?
Deletehttps://horrorpediadotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/bela-lugosi-the-ape-man-1943.jpg
Ape man will rape me. :(
Delete"Ape man will rape me. :("
Deletehttp://beladraculalugosi.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/bela-photographed-by-david-katzman1.png
There is no meaningful distinction between sociopathy and psychopathy.
ReplyDeleteCommon to both -- as is evidence in many comments above by/about sociopaths -- is absolute lack of conscience.
No consciene whatsoever.
Which also means no empathy.
Animals naturally have empathy. Bonobos are perhaps the poster hominyns for empathy. Aggressive, warlike chimpanzees also demonstrate empathy.
Neither sociopaths nor psychopaths demonstrate empathy.
And no conscience whatsoever.
Psychopathy is born, sociopathy is a lesson. And many socios waiting for the needle are crying genuine tears fot themselves, a type of empathy..
DeleteAnon,
Deletehttp://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/5432-u-mad-bonobo.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/ay1177.gif
Anon, I believe that's true. If you're outed, you're isolated. And humans are social by nature. To be ostrasczed, you're in a state of negative desire, i.e., suffering and separation from all life. That's why Buddhists stress being kind to all sentient beings.
DeleteGrendel
Anon, But if all socios have no conscience, which is borne of feeling, how can they experience joy or anger, which they clearly do? It seems that, according to your argument, that conscience is devoid of emotion. Is that what you're saying?
ReplyDeleteGrendel
All I want for X -mas is a cock
ReplyDelete"All I want for X -mas is a cock"
DeleteNSFTB
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwOHFXqjZ3FqozqCnjBq9CVDbBTeM6nPM6qDN-V2Ud_Wkd7wWNkQ
WC, You are not nearly as entertaining as the original WC Fields. Please cease the porn-filled references. So boring. It doesn't further your cause or your intellect. You simply make all socios sound like crude dicks. Not what they want, obviously. Some are actually willing to grow.
DeleteGrendel
Grendel, I shall feed you my delicious cunt in the nursing home.
DeleteWatch it, you'll cum o so good
Delete"Grendel, I shall feed you my delicious cunt in the nursing home."
DeleteI can do this forever...
https://beladraculalugosi.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/bela-photographed-by-david-katzman.png
"Watch it, you'll cum o so good"
DeleteJust saying...
http://beladraculalugosi.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/bela-photographed-by-david-katzman1.png
Will play in the coffin.
Delete"Will play in the coffin."
Deletehttps://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSqcojzoKH2RhRqTTGtIAiS7-M3BpkhxiuxxU9064ZgPMs__w-F
http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3j3xnQrfT1qdku5lo1_r1_500.gif
Where's my boobie gal gone too?
ReplyDelete"Where's my boobie gal gone too?"
Deletehttps://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4080/4825019285_9d7f067ce3.jpg
frankenstein boobies, I want them
Delete"frankenstein boobies, I want them"
Delete2 of a kind...
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/132/4/6/bela_lugosi_by_belalugosislove-d3g7nfg.jpg
Sometimes I think this blog is about how to manipulate more.. Everyone knows that a socio has no empathy, feeling or emotion. In reading ME book it's clear how she is selfishly motivated yet everyday blogging about how all the un-acceptance. Of course not! You will not be accepted once the mask falls down. Empaths once they learn you are a socio will watch you with a side eye. Always & that will never change. Sorry to burst your folks bubble. Dream on and keep trying as that will never change. You cannot change or manipulate that. Sorry not sorry.
ReplyDeleteMay be about to manipulate. But here's the catch.
DeleteFeeling awe leads to feelings in general. If you can excite the calculating mind to work on projects for good instead of harm, and they still get the rush of 'winning', there's hope.
Nature created sociopathy for a reason, and it's that reason, the why, that I'm seeking. Without prejudice.
Grendel
Grendel, let's watch the porn together sweetie. See what happens. Maybe play?
DeleteGrendel, let's watch the porn together sweetie. See what happens. Maybe play?
Deletehttp://beladraculalugosi.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/bela-photographed-by-david-katzman1.png
"In reading ME book it's clear how she is selfishly motivated yet everyday blogging about how all the un-acceptance."
DeleteAnon,
Direct your inner anger somewhere else. I, for one, like M.E.'s posts, including her unconventional approaches related to a variety of topics that actually make one think.
"Sorry to burst your folks bubble."
I initially wanted to say something here, but I chose not to.
Grendel,
DeleteHope is a balm for many things.
Anon, what you call our "hope for acceptance" is what I call "the closest thing to compassion we are capable of.". I know that sounds backwards, but let me explain.
DeleteIf I am operating within a set of rules (company policies, social norms, or law itself) there are only two possible reasons.
1) I have determined that my goal can be best reached within the system and being caught breaking a rule would inhibit my progress.
2). I have arbitrarily made the conscious decision that this set of rules will matter to me.
In either case, the best thing an empath can do is accept that truce and not " watch with a side eye". Accept the situation for what it is and behave in a civil manner. The risk you assume by having a monster in your house is that you aren't worried about the monster out there in the dark.
More plainly put, the most catastrophic thing you can do with regard to a sociopath is either say or demonstrate that the rules we have elected to follow are subjective or invalid. It restores to us a whole host of ugly courses of action that we have set aside FOR YOU.
Your burden is being forced to care by your biology. Ours is being forced to limit my own options for your continued welfare. I promise you in the most sincere way I can express it, you wouldn't like us with the leash off.
I might add that I sometimes follow rules because I'm not interested in much of anything at the moment. Like the lion quietly drinking at the watering hole - he's well fed and rest and only thirsty. Just passing through as it were. No need for a kerfuffle...
DeleteI'm often struck here by how socios project strength -- a lion, a monster, etc. Do you feel any dependency needs, weaknesses or vulnerabilities in yourself -- is your self image wholly one of strength and independence?
DeleteCc, what you are saying about having a truce is very important in my mind also. "The most catastrophic thing you can do with regard to a sociopath is either say or demonstrate that the rules we have elected to follow are subjective or invalid."
DeleteI think what you are saying if I may paraphrase, is that if you follow the empaths rules - the one that apply to everybody and on which our society is based - you expect the empaths to treat you the same as everybody else and apply those same rules towards you. Is that right?
That is what I am trying to do with my socio friend. He knows, I told him. But even if it it very conscious, it is f**** hard.
Dr. SciFi,
DeleteAs I wrote in my comments yesterday, there is a great deal within the personality of a highly intelligent sociopath, including such essential traits as strength and independence. You have also mentioned certain negative words, "so to speak," but that is because of your clear position in this WHOLE discussion as an empath.
What I would like to emphasize is that unchanging independence and distinctive individualism, which are finely and intricately connected, are greatly amplified in a highly intelligent sociopath - so natural and constantly evolving from that inner origin.
Comparable to the project that I have been developing, there are layers to highly intelligent sociopaths, too. I call them layers in relation to this particular discussion, because they are perpetually in a state of expansion. Having drawn my comparison between highly intelligent sociopaths and gifted and talented individuals, I have concluded that in many aspects as previously delineated, the continuous expansion is identical.
Hi DocSF,
DeleteI think it's more about out common language of symbols than anything else -
To take a page from John Cleese and friends, it really wouldn't make a lot of sense to talk about those "vicious sociopaths trolling the internet like meerkats for victims." Good for comedy in the right hands, but...
Hi HLHaller, I am not getting your point. Is that a lack of empathy on my part?
DeleteYou asked about the imagery that we often use to describe ourselves - that's what I was responding to.
DeleteI'm not sure about...this "weakness" you speak of... ;)~
do you see any weakness in yourself?
DeleteIn thinking about this, I started with the characteristics in the PCL-R. What hit me is that there are three different things being mixed together with this tool. The checklist is a mix of personality traits (e.g. empathy, sense of self, impulsiveness, etc.), how things get done (manipulation), and outward expressions or what is seen from outside as a result of the first two. From there I add a couple items I think Hare missed (e.g. “moral compass”).
ReplyDeleteIn examining it that way, I would be hard pressed to pick one “favorite.” Of the first group, I would have to say that flexible sense of self would be the most useful – all things being equal, the ability to “shape shift” is probably the most useful on a day to day basis. “Blunted fear” would be the next most useful (dangerous jobs such as combat soldier not withstanding for them it might be #1), but this one is more likely to be useful for getting kicks for the average Joe.
Of the second group, it’s a hard toss-up between hyper-mentalization and mirroring. I rely on those two quite a bit. As I get older, I use manipulation less and less – or maybe it’s that I’m more subtle about it now?
The last group, as I see it, is the result of the first two groups. For example, lack of remorse appears to me to be rooted in poor affective empathy and grandiose sense of self. That is to say, “If I don’t feel it and I think I’m right, what is there to feel “remorse” about?” Not feeling remorse is “helpful,” but it seems derivative to me.
I do hope you share the outcome of this project –
By the by - I have a longer version of this where I sort the PCL-R and add some additional items that I thought rounded out the list. If anyone is interested, but I figured that this was long enough -
I'm interested. Add your additional items that round out the list. I'm curious.
DeleteGrendel
It's interesting to take a disease model (the DSM or Hare's checklist with whatever one might want to add) and use that as a basis to answer the benefit question posted by ME. I mean just on principle.
DeleteI think any of the traits of sociopathy, however one wants to define them, can be beneficial to the individual or harmful to them, if one just looks at one trait at a time.
It is a question of the 'whole system' that matters -- a trait in the context of everything else about the person, which extends beyond their belonging to the class of people called sociopaths, however that is defined.
Then there is a question of benefit to whom, and benefit over what time scale.
I'm glad to see more socios on here than nons. Finally.
This coming from a non.
Delete"It's interesting to take a disease model (the DSM or Hare's checklist with whatever one might want to add)..."
Deletehttp://cheaperthantherapy.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/no.gif
HL, I want to expand on what I see as a weakness I see in listing traits of sociopathy in terms of a disease model to learn what can be learned about strengths.
DeleteBoth Hare's checklist and the DSM were largely based on studies of criminal populations. The terms on the checklist etc are not necessarily the most prominent features of sociopathy, that distinguish sociopaths from 'normal', but the defining features that lead to criminal and antisocial behavior -- and that serve as useful axis to separate people into categories on the basis of disease.
My impression is that it is time for some out of the box thinking regarding sociopathy.
Indeed I am a non, anon. What else?
"will get his just deserts one day."
DeleteJust.
http://i.imgur.com/8G026a8.gif
Hi DocSF,
DeleteI have come to the opinion that most of the labels from the DSM are on par with astrological signs.
I'm being a little hyperbolic, but really, the way they are doing the classifications really needs reconciliation with the work going on in imaging, genetics, and all the related fields. So, yes, I think we are in agreement that a good rethink is in order - and for all the clusters.
As to using Hare's checklist - I was just looking for a quick way to answer ME's question. I wanted a quick list to look through and that's where that rabbit hole went. And, yes, the fact that I saw the need to resort and expand on it lead to my conclusion that the PCL-R needs help.
HL, my point is a bit more subtle than that. The checklist is used to identify psychopaths in criminal populations. It probably does a good job at that.
DeleteMy point is that if one wants to identify attributes that separate psychopaths (or socios..) from the general population without a prior on criminal conduct (being in statistics you would know what a prior is) then it is not a matter of adding to Hare's checklist, but defining a different list not conditioned on criminal behavior. The list depends on what the purpose of making the list is.
I'd say something similar with all mental illnesses or personality disorders but that is a longer story.
Hi Doc,
DeleteI see what you mean. It really depends, then, on what it is you aiming to achieve with the checklist. Which then begs for a definition of a sociopath and/or psychopath.
From that perspective, Hare's checklist is as good a list as any since (through some circular mumbo jumbo, to be sure), that is one of the primary sources for identifying and "rating" psychopaths. Adding to it helps to fill in some of the "holes" that may have come about as a result of the initial population.
I also recall, that the "R" was added to help do some rounding out to make it somewhat more applicable to larger populations. But I'm at a loss to expand on that at the moment -
But, it will always come back to the question of "how do you define the group of interest?" Right now, slicing and dicing empathy seems to be the main focus and topic of discussion, but there isn't really any sort of category for people "suffering" from an empathy deficit that I know of. I've seen a couple offered in papers, but that's it.
Like it or not, until someone run the gauntlet to identify the group, create the instrument, and then validate it - Hare, the DSM, and the ICD is what we have to work with. "Shite state of affairs!"
I don't think I got my point across. If you want a list of criteria to separate two populations of incarcerated individuals you get one checklist (Hare's which most people think is ok for that purpose).
DeleteIf you want a list to separate nonincarcerated individuals into psychopaths and nons, then one would get a different list. Starting with Hare's checklist that he developed over decades working in the prison system seems like a poor point of departure to look 'add' criteria that sharply separate psychopaths from nons in the non-incarcerated population.
I think this is actually what this post is pointing to.
I got your point and I agree. That's also my point as well - you need to define the populations BEFORE you define the characteristics that separate them - otherwise you get that circular mumbo jumbo that I mentioned earlier.
DeleteIf you are really looking for ways to help identify two populations, it would be far better to screen/classify based on imaging, genetics, history, and the like. Then set up a data gathering process for gathering and classifying characteristics, behaviors, and thought patterns. From there you can begin to develop a tool/checklist.
The entire premise of this website and forum is predicated on people who self identify with Hare and companies characteristics that define at least one of the words that bring us here: psychopathy. (the other being sociopathy).
And, as has been pointed out numerous times, both terms suffer from a vagueness not unlike the word "pornography." If you really asked people to define it, I think you'll end up facing the same problem - sociopath and psychopath are really words that are only marginally better than "boogeyman." People know it when they see it...or when it's helpful to their cause.
Given that, if I'm asked to talk about the things that make me different that I think are helpful - our good friend Dr. Hare has some of those already listed and many of us, myself included, looked at that list and saw elements of ourselves in there. To the purposes of answering the question originally posed - I'm back to it being as good a place to start as any...given there really is no better starting point at this time.
@Dr. G: Also, every now and again, the funky words that I have to type in look like someone is at least selecting them, if not writing them. Or I'm just plain nuts. 8)~
I'm not sure what M.E.'s intent with the post is - if it is to address the weakness of the PCL-R and the DSM and the ICP...that strikes me as an odd way to go about it. Why not come at it more directly? Ask the question: given that you self identify as a sociopath/psychopath, what are the elements of your personality that you believe make you different? If you identify as "empath." same question.
DeleteThat might be a more direct route - if there are methodological problems with that, that might be worth debating...
ME was asking about beneficial traits. If one frames everything in terms of Hare's checklist for incarcerated psychopaths (which is what it actually is and always will be based on its history), that is missing the point in my view.
DeleteThere are other traits of non incarcerated psychopaths that keep them out of prison for instance. Those would be strengths to some degree.
I don't think it is a matter of weakness of the Hare checklist because it does work with incarcerated populations which is what is was designed for. Applying it to non-incarcerated populations or using it as a starting point to expand a list of criteria to non-incarcerated psychopaths seems misguided to me. To say they are no better alternatives raises the task of beginning to define alternatives. It's a hard question. I have no answer myself since I am not a socio.
My impression is that we are talking past each other to some degree. On to the next topic! Yeah that documentary 'century of the self' was chilling.
You may be right my friend. 8)~
DeleteHugs or a pat on the back then :)
DeleteMy impression is that many people talk past each other here, I guess that is inevitable. I also get the impression that some just want to talk but don't actually want to listen. I mean take on the other's perspective for a bit of time at least to see how things can make sense before seeing everything that is wrong (this is a tendency I can fall into as well), or...
distortions and games, I've never seen so much of it on the web as I've seen here. That some people would actually choose to spend inordinate amounts of time on that. I've got too much time on my hands these days too, but I am trying to learn, let's say. You are too.
As someone with socio traits, I'd appreciate your perspective on the motivations of types of people who, I would normally use the word 'participate', but for some this notion of participation is really quite different I think.
So? What can offer to enlighten me?
ps I've also got moments of enlightenment from CC, LaLa, RA, Dr. G, O&W, NM, Tii, HB, PB, a couple of the anon posts but mostly these are a waste of time, Grendel, Mia -- well I am sure I have left out some. I think ME's postings are definitely moving in the direction of getting more socios to participate.
DeleteHi Doc,
DeleteYeah, I do wonder some times what people's motivations are to spend time on this site. There are a number of us who seem to have pretty good dialogue - I think for the most part, those people you've mentioned are here to learn more about themselves and the lives of people who are different from them. That is why I am here as well - on both counts.
But some of the bullshit people seem to want to indulge in here really does make me wonder how the manage to have so much time on their hands and what mileage are they getting out of it...
...like I've said, I don't think they're here for the huntin'...
Hi Grendel,
ReplyDeleteWhat follows is what I originally wrote (two parts - the website wouldn't accept all of it at once...). It was a really good exercise for me - Enjoy!
HLH
At the risk of looking a bit Aspie… 8)~
In thinking about this, I quickly realized that Hare had already made a start at collecting characteristics (I think his checklist is missing a couple of items – more below). So, I started with the PCL-R. it strikes me that there are a few different things being mixed together with this tool. The checklist is a mix of personality traits (e.g. empathy, sense of self, impulsiveness, etc.), tactics or how things get done (manipulation), and outward expressions or what is seen from outside as a result of the first two. I also found that the PCL-R missing a couple of items that I see as common aspects of sociopathy.
Below is my sorting of the checklist with some adds and commentary – I’ve aggregated some of the items as they seemed redundant to me. Note that I view the first group as being best expressed as spectrums and the remaining items may be regarded as discrete entities (one either engages in the activity or they don’t), but might be served best by parameterizing them in some way – for example, how many times a day does one engage in mirroring?
Things SP/PP’s “Are” – these are the features of the personality that might be considered “variant” from the nominal. It is how one is “built and operates” differently than the numerically dominant population.
* Low Emotional Empathy/Weak Emotional Context (Item 8)
* Grandiosity/inflated self worth (Item 2)
* Flexible Sense of Self (Not called out directly)
* Blunted Response to Fear/Risk (Not called out directly)
* Need for Stimulation/novelty (Item 3)
* Impulsiveness (Items 10, 14)
* Shallow Affect (Item 7)
* Rage/Anger (not in Hare’s checklist, but I believe is part of the “pathy” - at least it's an important part of mine...)
* Lack of Moral Compass (also not in the PCL-R )
Things SP/PP’s “Do” – to me it seems that these are learned/developed behaviors that are “compensating” for the above features. Without the “tools” of affective empathy, for example, one has to rely on cognitive empathy to a greater extent to navigate life. Similarly, mirroring gives one a way of blending in and putting those around them at ease. Those two things are almost pre-requisites for effective manipulation (as opposed to outright bullying) – at least if one is to be skilled at it.
* Hyper-mentalization – cold reading (not on list)
* Reflection/Mirroring (not on list)
* Manipulation - gaming/charming (Items 1, 4, 5)
Expressions of “Are” and “Do” – What Others See/Outcomes of the “Are” and “Do.” These are, to some degree the most objective of the criteria, which looks a little like the ICD-10.
* Lack of Remorse/Responsibility for Negative Actions/Outcomes (“not my fault”) (Item 6, 16)
* Parasitic Lifestyle – (Item 9)
* “Weak” Attachments – few or no close friends and/or family. (promiscuity might be a subset of this; trying to connect or just not bound by the same emotional restraints?) (Items 11 and 17)
* Lack of realistic long term goals (Item 13)
* Irresponsibility (Item 15)
* Early Behavior Problems – this is a bit of an orphan in the sort. (Item 12, 18)
* Aggressive/Violent Behavior – Emotional and/or physical (surprisingly, this is kind of buried in the PCL-R, so I’ve called it out separately).
* Criminal activity and Behaviors (Items 19 and 20)
That list excites me! Makes me wet.
Delete"That list excites me! Makes me wet."
Deletehttp://beladraculalugosi.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/bela-photographed-by-david-katzman1.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq7xyjU-jsU
DeleteI did enjoy the 1980's...good times!
Delete@WC: Happy to oblige! (...MA!!!)
DeleteJust like I thought.
DeleteI'll borrow this from Stay Smart, having sent it to you earlier. (Also considering other posts from the past few days...Anonymous December 3, 2014 at 8:37 AM -KARMA - continued - THE "DUD EGG" EPISODE as narrated by Dr.SciFi and HLHaller )
“Once you have eliminated the impossible,” the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes famously opined, “whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
HLHaller,
DeleteYou see, there is logic in it.
Just like I thought.
I'll borrow this from Stay Smart, having sent it to you earlier. (Also considering other posts from the past few days...Anonymous December 3, 2014 at 8:37 AM -KARMA - continued - THE "DUD EGG" EPISODE as narrated by Dr.SciFi and HLHaller )
“Once you have eliminated the impossible,” the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes famously opined, “whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
"...it strikes me that there are a few different things being mixed together with this tool."
Deletehttps://38.media.tumblr.com/96304ccd2c3b8bb9d22d55f650499f5f/tumblr_msp1fjIFNp1sbavuuo1_500.gif
In examining it that way, I would be hard pressed to pick one “favorite.” Of the first group, I would have to say that flexible sense of self would be the most useful – all things being equal, the ability to “shape shift” is probably the most useful on a day to day basis. Having said that, blunted fear would be the next most useful – though, unless you are prone to being in dangerous situations as a rule (e.g. combat soldier). For most, it would be more useful getting kicks.
ReplyDeleteOf the second group, it’s a hard toss-up between hyper-mentalization and mirroring. I rely on those two quite a bit. As I get older, I use manipulation less and less – or maybe it’s that I’m more subtle about it now?
The last group, as I see it, is the result of the first two groups. For example, lack of remorse appears to me to be based to some degree in poor affective empathy and grandiose sense of self. That is to say, “If I don’t feel it and I think I’m right, what is there to feel “remorse” about?”
By the by, this finally crystallizes for me the crudeness of the PCL-R (and this sort of approach in general) – better than nothing, but…
The best ability is the ability to find the posers and wannabe sociopaths (They say they're JUST LIKE YOU and just suck up to you. It's extremely annoying, though some may love the attention) and to take them for all they're worth.
ReplyDeleteThose aren't called sociopaths though. That's more like histrionic types.
Delete"I am grateful for SS for taking the beat down so I can learn this about myself."
ReplyDeleteHLHaller,
Beat down?
No.
And, frankly, that is because you still don't understand what happened. There was strength in what I did, but not according to your "version" of it. You seem to believe that you have used me in order to arrive to this "realization," but, in REALITY that is not so, because, once again, you still don't understand what happened (i.e., my methods, that is).
Think again.
All in all, considering your entire comment, there is such a thing as HISTORY.
SS: Let's agree that our perspectives are different. From there, regardless of what your perspective is and what my perspective is, that whatever happened, affected me in a specific way. That way caused me to think about myself in a new way that might actually make me act in less destructive ways in the future. Is that something you want to undermine?
ReplyDelete"...thanking the beings that gave their lives for my meal. I am grateful for SS for taking the beat down so I can learn this about myself."
DeleteAnd I am trying to undermine something in you? Re-read your comment above, more than once, that is. You're using words like "gave their lives for" your "meal" and "beat down." Need I say more?
Also, it is not a matter of perspective when it comes to me. It was a "method" that I employed, the course and result of which you don't actually know in real time. Therefore, your thinking and conclusion are altogether moot at this point. There is a difference between a perspective and a "method," and the fact that you have not understood it has given you the wrong idea about me. You did not use me at all in your illusory "undertaking"; instead, considering HISTORY and the time I began writing my comments, you've always been this way.
Logic prevails.
gottcha
DeleteWhatever works for you Smartie - Rock on!
DeletePeace!
Well, I'm glad "you've come around," HLHaller..."so to speak"...but I am not convinced.
DeleteI can name 48.
ReplyDeleteRadical,
ReplyDeleteThese are a few of my favorite lines by Yeats:
"O but there is wisdom
In what the sages said;
But stretch that body for a while
And lay down that head
Till I have told the sages
Where man is comforted."
I don't really have a lot of faith in psychology or psychological definations.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that people slap a name on an "abnormal" condition, and everyone
has a different name for that "condition," like the "blind men/elephant parable.
Another way of saying it is: "We see the world as we are, not as it is."
Should sociopaths be blamed for their behavior? I think that would kind be like
blaming a predatory animal for it's behavior. Is it not my responsibility to protect
MYSELF, by reading the signs of what a sociopath is? If I purposely enter the
Lion's den, am I NOT responsible for my fate?
"Entering the Lion's den," could be as simple as leaving my window unlocked
at night, or engaging in denial about an abusive relationship or a stalker.
Boredom, also puts you in the Lion's den. You seek mental stimulation to
escape miserable thoughts. You "leave home" to get "entertained."
The law of cause and effect tells us it's not the other person who hurts us.
Nine times out of ten, our willful ignorance hurts us.
This is taking charge of your life as best you can. Well-put.
DeleteGood morning, HLH. I was thinking about matching professions with psychologies. Like statistics and shape-shifting. I have a feeling you'd have some good thoughts on that one.
ReplyDeleteAnd a good morning to you Sceli!
DeleteI need to be in smaller companies and I need to change jobs every few years to avoid that feeling of being “stuck” and to keep the stimulation up. Doing consulting work also gets me there.
With every new gig, there is a phase at the beginning where I decide what is needed and who I need to be to make it happen. I’ve found that for about the first two weeks at a new job, people will tell you almost anything if you let them talk and ask open ended questions and do a minimal amount of ego stroking. During this phase, I figure out who I need to be (in some gigs, it’s really about just being a cog – those gigs “ pay the bills” and give me some “down time”). And then I get to work.
I also find that shape shifting is really helpful when I’m going to other sites where I won’t be there long, but I need to get a lot done. The reality is, as much fun as flexing muscles is, there’s usually some form of back splatter that can be a hassle later on or even make one unwelcome in the future. It is better if you can get people to do what you want because they want to.
I mentioned this story before, but it really is one of the best examples. A client had me working at a supplier and the principal engineer for the client commented to my partner that I tried to be “everything to everyone.” I was a little puzzled by the comment at the time. After all, I was just getting people to do what I need them to do in the way that was most expedient. But, that engineer was a super-empath-victim type and I creeped them out it would seem. To me, I was just getting the job done.
By the by - I really identify more as an engineer. Statistics is something I use to be a better engineer. I can riff more on that, if you want, but that can get pretty dry...well, for most other people anyway. 8)~
"I need to be in smaller companies and I need to change jobs every few years to avoid that feeling of being “stuck” and to keep the stimulation up." Ugh I feel ya on this one. I'm terrified of feeling trapped like I'm in a prison if there's no excitement at work. In fact, and wondering if you've ever experienced anything similar, if I'm under a lot of stress I start to feel a degree of boredom that is excruciating. I've sometimes just laid in bed because the boredom is almost painful, and just waited for it to run it's course. I start to get scared if I'm stress that I might go through one of those episodes. Fortunately for a bpd like me, there's things like prisons I can go work in. I know it's fucking WRONG, but I must get like a dopamine rush with the idea of working with murderers. It's totally not right, and totally pathological, but it's not like normal people want to work with this stuff, and if someone like me is willing to do it should be seen as a benefit to society.
Delete"and if someone like me is willing to do it should be seen as a benefit to society." I would agree with that statement. I have often read that therapy has been found to be counter-productive for incarcerated pwAsPD or psychopaths in prison. It increases recidivism. There's also a documentary with Hare and this guy who scored 40 on the Hare check list where the same statement is made.
DeleteI'm an engineer by training too, but I completely failed at shape-shifting, I was the optimization person, the one who believed and searched for absolute minimums and believed that heuristics and statistics for when you could not do optimization (just because you were not mathematically brilliant enough) completely failing that optimization is only useful in solving extremely well-defined problems, and majority of problems in life are not well-defined, and those can be the most fun to work with. So, that was the awakening at 23, and sure did not become clear for many many years. I envy you for having changed jobs. That would've fit my personality better. It's not too late, I should get going in that regard. Instead I took on a whole bunch of different kind of endeavors, travels, etc. to stay stimulated.
DeleteWhat I was trying to get it is that in statistics if you can rub the nnumbers long enough you can get to anything, in that regard it's like shape-shifting. Or, so I thought.
Thank you for responding, though. I like reading your views, it's that engineer thing that systematic way you look at things. I've stepped into the arts world, it's way different, yet it's stimulating, but Imiss the engineer me too.
Hi Sceli,
DeleteLOL! Yes - you can "rub numbers" - I like that. 8)~
I am a chemical engineer by training, so I think that taking a non-deterministic approach to problems (i.e. using statistical tools) comes much more naturally (you pretty much have to make peace with it in stat mech to make it through...). I find that mechanical engineers usually have the toughest time making the leap.
And...hold on, let me get my soap box out...there!
As I was saying...oh, yeah...I have come to opinion that just about every newly minted engineer that comes to work for me has to turn around and take at least one statistics course so that we can work together. The problem, as I see it, is that most engineering programs do a crappy job of teaching engineers how to regards measurements and data. Let alone how to properly design an experiment (sample size, what to control for, etc.)...
There is a process I like to drum into young engineers heads: DMAIC - Define, Measure, Analyze, Improve, and Control. That's the order in which you need to do things and if you ignore any of those you are likely to head off into the weeds. First, be clear about what you are going to do - where do you start and what do you call finished (this last part kills so many engineers...young and old...). Next, figure how to measure it - unless you can measure it reliably you ain't got shit. From there you can start doing the techie stuff that engineers so love.
Engineering schools have been failing to teach those first two steps effectively for a long time. It's very frustrating, really.
OK - spleen vented. 8D~
After twenty odd years of engineering, a change would be fun - but then there's that whole keeping mama in shoes and baby in diapers thing. The grass is always greener.
Likewise, I also enjoy your posts - you have some great perspective and have been around this site long enough to be able to give some good "empath" perspective.
:) Yes, DMAIC, control theory guys (electrical or mechanical types) and industrial/systems engineering guys are exposed to that. Some chemical eng'g programs have strong optimization component, too. Oh, well. Good old days. I assume you're in the US, because my impression is that it's the only country that's going backwards in engineering education. It all may have started with Reagan's cut of education budgets in early 80's who knows. This is one country where teachers hardly get any respect, very different than Europe or Asia where teachers get respect and deserve respect. In the US education system the water and the soil is good for sociopaths to take charge and fluorish, add to that NPDs, too.
DeleteI'd better go and lighten up, my empath is getting upset for no good personal reason.
LOL! Yeah I'm 'mercin. ;)~
DeleteIt's really the importance of recognizing that measurements have errors and those errors need to be accounted for in all those deterministic equations that we learn. And balance - force, mass, charge, whatever, has to be measured at some point if the theory is to be put to any use. Those measurement errors are real and they add up quickly - especially when the math is any more complicated than addition/subtraction.
All that great theory can quickly become useless or worse if you blindly believe your measurements.
It does sadden me to see a system, imperfect as it was, be demolished like that. And, as an older engineer, it feels like I have to teach these kids to do work I think they should already know. I suppose the guys I came up under saw it the same way...
That should have said, "Any balance - force,..."
DeleteFor me, one of the biggest benefits I see is a lack of anxiety. I know so many people who have their lives together on the surface, but live in near constant anxiety about things that make little to no sense to me. It looks horrible and I remind myself occasionally how lucky I am to not have that sort of affliction
ReplyDeleteIt's also got a pretty obvious downside. If you're never anxious, you're never cautious, and end up doing something that others would call stupid.
DeleteHLHaller, about your list and, well a question to socios in general, is to what extent you hold resentment. That would be for instance intense resentment (or lack of it) in the short term, holding on long term to resentment, as in getting joy from revenge or karma. Or HL do you attach your pleasure in revenge to resentment? My impression is that you don't hold much resentment. You are more flexible than I am from what I have seen and I think resentment may be related to that because how can one be a chameleon whilst holding intense resentment, then is one is actually a rather simple character.
ReplyDeleteI also wonder how these games of 'ruining' that socios are known for are related to their own feelings of resentment, if at all.
It's hard to ask questions without coming across as prejudging an answer.
And then, what is that resentment about? I mean what does one typically get to feel resentful for?
Jaded December 6, 2014 at 4:27 AM
Delete"When a wolf kills its prey the only karma it receives is 1) the animals go live somewhere else when they are on to whats going wrong because the wolf wasn't cautious enough 2) that the farmer who owns the animals is lurking about with a shotgun trying to stop it. 3) the sheep go mental and all attack the wolf.
Most of these are unlikely so the wolf doesn't care about karma, or heaven, or where the hell anyone thinks god is going to find 7 virgins for every good dead man. Its about the here and now, Karma happens now not in the next life. Heaven is lots of yummy sheep, right there in that field, and no-one is looking out for them...
Karma is this, I hit you and I'm too stupid to realize you're bigger than me, you hit me back and I break my nose.
Woosy Magical Thinking Karma is this: That hater who's daddy doesn't love him and got me sacked will get his just deserts one day.
Reality is: he is such a cocksucker and his boss is so narcissistic that they will both go on to do very well in life as they continue to overcompensate for their lack of manhood as they pretend they don't care that their wives divorced them for being arrogant putas. However they may find it difficult to run a business together staffed only by idiot graduate-sheep and needy-beta-orbiters who don't think for themselves, that their career will end with a whimper and they will die alone after a life of chasing the ghost of momentary glory they had in their youth when stupid weak enablers said they were cool.
Or not, it depends how self aware, how skilled, and how mindful they are."
- "will get his just deserts one day."
http://i.imgur.com/8G026a8.gif
Hi DocSF,
DeleteIf you truly piss me off it can be for life - yours or mine, I don't care. It's hard to do as I get older, but it does happen still from time to time.
Mostly, I don't care about too many things, so it's tough to be resentful much - it is, to some extent, a learned detachment. There are few things in this life I'm really attached to and I've worked out what is really important to me. The rest of it...meh...not really worth the energy that comes with that sort of resentment.
I find it much more useful to discharge any hostility as quickly as possible - and try to keep it appropriately focused. There's less blowback that way. And ruminating is a lousy way to spend ones day -
Sometimes I get my ass kicked (comes with the territory). I've found that I will carry residual anger for some time until I work out what really went wrong or I do something to "balance the books" or both. In those cases, I really do try to end at the "figure out what went wrong" point...not always successfully though.
"Finally, I was thinking that there are ways that the sociopath sees the world, especially maybe in terms of power structures/hierarchies or utilitarianism or others?"
ReplyDeleteThis is probably your keynote right here. I see every path or course of action as the same. Good and bad doesn't really compute in my mind. I make risk assessments. Determine which one is most likely to succeed with fewest negative outcomes and off I go.
Power structures are something else though. It's like...I don't care how the NFL gets away with murder and makes millions of dollars off of nothing. On on the OTHER hand I watch the presidential debates like other people watch American Idol. I have an uncanny knack at calling which way the election will go.
I also tend to know where the promotions are going at the bank where I currently work. I think it's just this tendency towards observation. I think most people have their heads buried in the sand. Which is how I pick up the scent earlier.
Dunno about the other stuff. Lacking empathy is a double edged sword. And I'm more efficient in certain regards, but people eventually pick up on the fact that I'm different. Makes it also somewhat double edgy. I must say though not having to deal with emotional turbulence that others do is quite lovely.
Kirk out.
Baron Kingsley Van Swaggercock IV,
DeleteBut there's more, much more...
1. "Finally, I was thinking that there are ways that the sociopath sees the world, especially maybe in terms of power structures/hierarchies or utilitarianism or others?"
The RAREST of all human qualities is "consistency," including power structures/hierarchies AND "utilitarianism."
"There are many others, of course, but this post is already getting long. I don't mind people believing one thing or the other and broadcasting that belief loudly and frequently, I just ask for a little bit of rationality and consistency in those professed beliefs." (i.e., with consistency a remarkable word here)
2. "On on the OTHER hand I watch the presidential debates like other people watch American Idol. I have an uncanny knack at calling which way the election will go."
So do I.
“Our actions are like ships which we may watch set out to sea, and not know when or with what cargo they will return to port.”
"Spartan" - strength, parallel and consistency -
Deletehttp://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1520/15206874/2683197-6663072386-13915.gif
http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo215/Spartan_08/neo-bullets-the-matrix-2.jpg
Not capturing your meaning.
Delete"Not capturing your meaning."
Delete"I also tend to know where the promotions are going at the bank where I currently work."
http://www.latein-lk.de/Bilder/XTra/Medien/temet.jpg
Utilitarianism is all about ensuring the greatest happiness through correct moral choices. I've always thought that sociopaths were pragmatists, caring about getting things done efficiently without regard to whether the actions taken to get those things done are moral or not.
Delete"I think most people have their heads buried in the sand. Which is how I pick up the scent earlier."
ReplyDeleteHere I have something positive to offer, but also questioning societies portrayals of women. There is a brilliant college professor from Harvard who is a psychopath, and as you can imagine, she is older. Why do all these portrayals of female sociopaths have to be of one who is baby making age?
ReplyDeleteI admire the tolerance in a sociopath. Involuntary humility causes a person to be vast.
ReplyDeleteI tried posting a comment several times, but it kept being deleting. Wondering if the comment section is now being monitored.
ReplyDeleteHi Dr. G,
DeleteI've had some trouble from time to time as well and have wondered the same thing...
Also been wondering why you haven't waded into the fray - 8)~
I guess it's no longer anarchy libertarian utopia :/
DeleteIt's OK - remember, "Ben Stiller" pointed out that there really is no free will, so what does "libertarianism" mean then anyway? ;)~
DeleteWell, I don't really see how I can help people deal with negative emotions I don't even perceive as such, however I do have something interesting on the productivity side. It's for repetitive tasks: I tend to completely dissociate my consciousness from my body during them, for the most part leaving my brain to observe the automatic work done by the body while my thoughts keep wandering. It helps me not get bored and disregard the task completely, while only a small functional part keeps a watch on it. It is not uncommon for me to not remember events for hours while doing the repetitive task (currently cashier work) and only to snap back (so to say) when something out of the norm happens.
ReplyDeleteNow, for that finally part. That should probably be the first one since that is actually where the differences will become most apparent.
I view each and every person as a tool to the person he is under, unless the person in charge is not better suited for the job. In essence:
The ones below me are wrenches and hammers, my use of them will be tailored to their personal qualities.
However, if I am a wrench and the one above me uses me to hammer a nail I WILL question his place in the hierarchy and I WILL try to take it away. (probably with more than a few anger outbursts throughout since if there is ONE thing I hate, it is someone getting in the way of MY work)
I think sociopaths make the world go round. That is, they add a lot of excitement and drama to life! It is another disorder, just like any physical or mental disorder, bad eye sight for example or depression... I'm no expert; I am not a sociopath but I am very interested in it, and have a lot of empathy for sociopaths! Thank you M.E. so much for writing your book and your blog; I agree it must have taken a lot of courage and intelligence to do it. You are adding to people's understanding of the phenomena, and I am sure there are lots of good things sociopaths have done and continue to do. It is all part of the broad spectrum of live and I believe, love is the ultimate goal whatever way you look at it.
ReplyDeleteBackground: I consider myself a highly functioning female with fairly strong sociopathic tendencies. This is only a recent realization after I read the book "Confessions of a Sociopath". My way of thinking is pretty sociopathic but I'm not really into crimes so to say.
ReplyDeleteI find it generally very helpful that I really think I can do anything. That way I just do stuff without any self-doubt. When others are too afraid to try new things I've already done it. I usually just start working on something without any experience and learn while I go – I often even manage to make money out of it. When I finally learn how to do things properly I get bored and it's time to do something else. This way I lead a very interesting and varied life. The only downside is that it's hard for other people to keep up with me and I sometimes disappoint people when I cannot commit to things on long-term. I don't have just one profession but I do several different things. The way I explain this to people is that I'm like a renaissance woman that likes to do many things. :)
I think my life is generally very rich and varied. I get to experience more than others because of my fearlessness and constant need for stimulation. I love to try new things and I am a complete chameleon. Instead of one life I can live many different lives.
I get over things very quickly and I am very good at turning a problem into an opportunity. I don't panic and it helps in situations where I need to make quick decisions.
I have always considered myself "socially and psychologically intelligent" (which is kind of funny because sociopaths are generally considered anti-social). This means that I can get very close to people very fast. When I meet someone new, it doesn't take me long to figure out what makes her/him tick. This is very helpful in work situations when I'm selling someone an idea.
My lack of judging means that people tell me their deepest secrets and once again it's easy to get very close to them to build this connection and trust.
I love travelling and because of my lack of identity it is super easy for me to blend in wherever I am.
When I was younger my life was a little more chaotic and I made different choices than I do now. But because I now know myself better and also realize different consequences for different actions, it is a lot easier for me to act in ways that generate success and happiness in my life. I've also learned to manage my anger and to appreciate peace in harmony in my daily life.
I really wouldn't want to be any other way and actually consider myself lucky for having the brain that I have. Being this way makes my life so full, adventurous and interesting.
By the way English is not my mother tongue. I've learned to speak and write it quite well because I've lived abroad for quite some time wanting to blend in and to be able to express myself fully.
Sociopaths are actually schizos believing in their own mental bullshit about others, and they effin argue a lot. Lots of bullocks.
ReplyDeleteAnon - 12:33 PM
DeleteThis is who you are, hating others who are not like you.
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so, anon, are you saying that you think that socios tend to be more argumentative than nons? it depends on the context? i think the word arguing is to some degree an oversimplification. i really don't get what the bs is about. what the motivation is as HL addressed...
ReplyDeletewhy do you associate believe their on mental bs with schizos? I am not familiar with schizos.
SciFi:
DeleteYou again.
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I wrote two very simple statements DoctorSciFi. I shall leave it at that.
ReplyDeleteSame.
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-To omit guilt and go straight to responsibility or like.. modifying one's conduct is a good one.
ReplyDelete-Some people believe that things are to be used and people are to be loved. I like to believe that things and people are to be used and loved, at the same time. Why not? Who doesn't want to be made useful? Useless people.
-Perseverance... passion and single-mindedly focused
those are some thoughts.
i have to agree with the "grace under pressure" phenomenon, instead of pressure inducing panic you focus on the what is important, what is the ultimate goal, this aids in decision making in difficult situations.
ReplyDeletethe ability to read people rather well can also be quite helpful when choosing a partner, you can weed out liars, the boring people, those faking self-confidence etc...
you are less likely to wind up with some one who has qualities you do not like.
Your comment reminds me of a Conflict and Its Resolution course I took in the past, especially focused on decision making in difficult situations. As that course also demonstrated, it is hard to be the Mediator when one is personally involved in a situation, but ample experience can make it possible.
DeleteI agree with your approach, and it can be helpful when choosing a partner, wisely eliminating the liars and those that are unfaithful and continuously disloyal. Life is full of invaluable lessons, and all of us learn at one point or another.