From a recent comment to an old post:
If a cat got a thorn stuck in it's paw, and you knew it didn't care about you, you should still take the thorn out if you consider yourself kind. I don't think your kindness should depend on whether the cat cares about you or not, especially since it's the cat's nature. ~ I'm an aspie...
If a cat got a thorn stuck in it's paw, and you knew it didn't care about you, you should still take the thorn out if you consider yourself kind. I don't think your kindness should depend on whether the cat cares about you or not, especially since it's the cat's nature. ~ I'm an aspie...
If you consider yourself kind and don't want to tarnish your image in your own eyes, then you should help the cat. But it is a slippery slope. Some will feel self righteous after helping the cat and expect gratitude which will most likely not come.
ReplyDeleteIf you can help the cat without expecting anything in return, if you can deal with the cat being pissed at you for helping it, by all means... I believe most people cannot and would resent the cat after bringing it the help. Thoughts?
I could care less about the cat. The most hateable people are
ReplyDeleteanimal lovers. This "Do gooderism" is extented to animals.
Don't purposely hurt an animal, but don't help an animal either.
That's what the Jews thought about the Gentiles.
Extending to helping in general, I don't think I ever helped someone/something without expecting something in return. Honestly, I do some pro-social/beneficent work, but only because someone I want contact with also works there, or I want to show that I'm a good person to others (Fb posts included).
ReplyDeleteAnd honestly, EVERY fucking one is doing that because they expect something in return. People in general ony do 'good' stuff for one of the two reasons:
1 -> ease the pain that appears in their mind when they experience another suffering.
2 -> get some kind of reward in form of pleasure when they see someone they judge inferior feeling better.
Just that, people are in general fucking egoists, all they do is to ease their emotional pain, not to really help others. That is why you cannot convince a empath that a nonempathetic person can be as socially ajusted as they are, because they can't without their conscience.....
The idea that people only help others, be it a cat or person, to ease their own pain and/or get a reward assumes that all people are motivated by the same narrow parameters. I don't believe this any more than I believe all non-NTs are incapable of being socially adjusted.
ReplyDeleteDoing good deeds give their own reward, and yes, the giver feels pleasure. But that doesn't necessarily mean that's why they give: I give because I can, because it's a part of who I am. Some people derive meaning from hoarding billions, others from giving their riches away.
The ego will always grasp whatever it can. That's why certain belief systems stress the importance of recognizing the ego for what it is -- a necessary illusion that skillfully unifies the living hoard of conflicting drives that dwell within. Without the organizing screen of the ego these internal forces would drive most people mad. It is not the real self. (From a psycho-spiritual perspective.) The true Self is part of the Whole, connected to all living things. Giving makes whole the sum of myriad inner and outer parts of material reality. It's the nature of life to give to of itself -- that's how it can create.
"I give because I can, because it's a part of who I am." -> Unfortunately, you 'are' something because that same thing makes you feel pleasure. Every little thing that is part of your conscience, way of being, self, whatever, is built with the interaction with the environment, in a two-way process: where you shape your life and environment according with what gives you pleasure and you learn what gives to you pleasure (or pain) by your life and environment.
DeleteI really don't like the ego construction from Freud, this creates more stupid constructs than gives a real understanding of some situations. When going to psychology don't go to old and mostly already updated theories from Freud. There is a lot of new stuff and that Ego concept as Freud thinks is already refuted by today psychology.
Also, We are not connected in any way. Ok, if you like to think in a spiritual way, that is fine. But just don't forget that someone feelings, experience, conscience will NOT change if you change another person somewhere far (like killing, torturing, giving something good, changing his life or whatever) if that person does not interact with any consequences of the action, or talk to someone that know the fact or anything.
And finally, don't create a illusion that giving is part of what you 'are' because it isn't, think like more as a choice. No one have done this kind of experiment in humans because it is immoral, and expensive, but if you get someone and observe all what he/she does, and EVERY time he/she gives something to others you make he/she fells pain (not necessary physical, emotional is also valid) you will get a picture of what I am talking about. The behaviour will slowly change, with the years, and then the way the people think about, and than the way people are. With enough time and sufficient control you could become anything, believing whatever is presented to you, just by removing the control of that person have over the environment.
Anon, You made me laugh! There are so many ways in which I can rip your argument to shreds. Not because I know everything, but because you are making some grand assumptions and . . .
DeleteI'll respond, but not right now. Family's coming, and I don't have the time to do you justice. Just kidding. Lighten up.
@Faust, I'll be very happy to read your arguments. Different from the majority. I like to listen when I'm wrong, to not fall in the same mistake again, so, if you really have some useful to share, please do it.
DeleteAnon, I apologize for not following through. Useful info is relative to most people; it's good of you to listen to anything I might say. There are a lot of voices, echoing sounds, inhabiting this space.
DeleteBusy life I got here. So . . . to politely point out a few assumptions:
"Unfortunately, you 'are' something because that same thing makes you feel pleasure. . ." I equally choose pain. under a variety of circumstances I doubt would make sense to you. Sometimes I give without thinking about it, sometimes to avoid feeling the other person's pain, sometimes spontaneously.
"Also, We are not connected in any way." Another assumption. Prove it. As a metaphysician and keen student of life I beg to differ. Whether or not you know it, you would die if one particular microorganism in the soil died. And it's dying right now: Due to human stupidity and greed.
As for 'removing the control of that person have over the environment" -- sure. But it's a temporary solution at best. It's the rational win-win I'm looking for. There's always a new selfish and greedy person, empath and socio, ready to step up and take over my 'environment.'
I don't see much value in dissecting motives for altruism, the least deadly of the seven virtues. People do the strangest, most noble and horrible things for all kinds of reasons.
"
Ok, nice!
DeleteI'll reply with what i think, than you point something to me if you disagree.
" give without thinking about it, sometimes to avoid feeling the other person's pain, sometimes spontaneously." -> The first one is the conditioning stimulus, the second one is the learnt behavior, explaining when you do something to avoid pain your brain learn this behavior so you don't need to think about it again. This is a good thing actually, because it is impossible to think about every action we take every day. To exemplify this there is a experiment where they got a bunch of monkeys and gave them bananas, but every time they got bananas they gave them a electric shock. After while they stopped trying to get bananas. After that the scientists stopped to give the shocks, the learned helplessness won, and no monkey tried get bananas anymore, they didn't though anymore if the bananas gave them shock. And after a generation of monkeys where all the monkeys who took shocks died no monkey tried to get bananas. That is the point, even when you don't think about something and act it is because a learnt behavior.
"you would die if one particular microorganism in the soil died" -> Wait, you saying that somehow my life is attached to one microorganism? Well I agree with you if we kill all microorganisms we may create a situation where no life can be sustained by breaking the life cicle, but it is completely different from saying that some ones life is somehow attached to some others life.
"I don't see much value in dissecting motives for altruism" -> And I agree with you, as I can't see any, unless it give me something, but than it is not altruism =)
tks for the reply!
Virgoans would remove the thorn even if the cat had a VERY rotten character due to its zodiac Scorpio "essence". No other animal on earth so much resembles/behave like a scorp, just look at the "hypnotic" eyes. This act would "balance" the devilry in it, just like the human Virgo/Scorpio relationship does with some good "cops" and some bad "cops" with same agenda. Daytime is followed by night & then dawn comes and brings a new day. Then the shadows grow long again..
ReplyDeleteRumour 1: most aspies are slightly "daft", these are not sociopathic. Rumour 2: a minority of aspies are clever, these can be considered "benevolent psychopaths". True or false..?
ReplyDeleteI do "good" things (and "rotten" things, for that matter) for a lot of reasons and in most cases, there isn't "just one" reason. I think that sort of over simplification is bollocks (I heard some Brits today and I've always thought that was a great expression).
ReplyDeleteTo start with, I'm not a fan of taking things like this to some reductionist ultimate end. It is, in some cases, an interesting "thought experiment" (AKA "jerk off" in most cases). I agree that some factors have more influence than others, but ignoring the others is done at one's own peril.
But it's also not very interesting to say we do things "simply for a dopamine kick." We may get one, and it might even be a big one, but there are usually other things going on that flavor the experience. That's the richness of novel experiences - the variety of way to feel "good."
It's not unlike trying to argue that "sweet" is the only "flavor" that tastes good - ice cream is good, but so is a good steak. Why pick?
I like living in a an orderly, clean, smoothly functioning environment. I pick up trash and do other "pro-social" acts because of an internal aesthetic - one that others happen to benefit from. I also get a little tickle out of knowing that I've somehow influenced things - often un-noticed by the participants.
I might well pull the thorn out of the cat's paw to shut it up - and it's usually less noisy and messy than shooting it. I also happen to "like" cats (I relate tot hem in many ways), so that might also have some influence on what I decide to do. And, if my young daughter is sleeping and it's my cat - I'm just being an asshole trying to keep life simple.
Life just isn't that simple - thankfully.
Beautifully said, HLH!
DeleteWho the hell actually expects that kind of gratitude from animals? Talk about sense of entitlement.
I love animals, for the most part anyway. There is something wonderful about taking a horribly abused stray and getting them back to full health and confidence. Have done that for 4 so far.
Didn't expect anything from them. Just immensely enjoyed watching the transformation and was happy with the affection they chose to give.
2 of them showed their appreciation by leaving me presents of half eaten rats. That I stepped on a couple of times when going outside for a smoke. Nothing wakes you up better at 3am than feeling that squish in bare feet...
At the same time, I can be cruel to other animals who annoy me. Meh. Get me near a yappy dog and don't be surprised if it gets kicked. Hard.
I donate to charity all the time, give money to homeless if I see any and am usually happy to help if I see someone in distress. Would be silly to expect anything from any of them.
However, I fully expect there to be fair give and take in all my relationships. If someone keeps taking and doesn't provide me with enough in return that I am kept satisfied...their value drops. I have no need for self centered users.
Just as Sans Dire said, humans are a different animal entirely.
Kat
Harry, Your brand of non-NT thinking on this topic shows common sense. As always.
DeleteKat, I love what you said about watching the transformation of a neglected life force bouncing back to vitality, joy. It makes me want to loaf around, drink up their happiness. Happiness to be alive and thriving. My cat Faust gifted me many dead rats when we lived in a converted chicken coop on an island: most memorable was waking up to a huge one on my pillow, positioned face to bloodied face.
Please don't hurt the beasts. As for yappy dogs or people, I'm afraid evolution has brought them this far. . . .
You're right that it's silly to expect anything from those we help: It's not helpful to give a 'gift' (create a debt), either. Quid pro quo is for lawyers, not those proclaiming themselves Mother Teresa.
In intimate relationships involving deep trust, giving and sharing personal information is similar to currency. A currency that can be used to break lives or fire hearts.
"Who the hell actually expects that kind of gratitude from animals? Talk about sense of entitlement."
I loved this comment.
@Kat: Yes! My step father used to say of animals that they were "just trying to make a living." That always made sense to me. Your comment about entitlement takes on even more "meaning" in that context - they are just trying to get by; you might or might not be out to harm them; why take chances?
Delete@Faust: Thanks! How goes/went the visit? :)
"In intimate relationships involving deep trust, giving and sharing personal information is similar to currency. A currency that can be used to break lives or fire hearts."
DeleteVery beautifully said!
It reminded me of something a wise and dear friend told me: think of a relationship as a garden. It starts out full of seedlings, bearing promise and hope.
Can choose to work hard together, water and nurture it. Even a little bull shit is good. Watch it thrive and bloom, bringing beauty, shelter, sustenance, joy.
If one person waters it only when convenient and heaps mountains of bovine manure everywhere, the other can continue picking up the slack and working twice as hard, in hopes that it can still thrive. That is called codependence.
Or sometimes the other may give up and neglect it as well. Only a matter of time before the garden turns into toxic wasteland.
Or...one may choose to take the toxic sludge and use it to slowly poison the other person.
Even if both want to save the polluted garden, it is not enough to simply start watering. They have to clean up all the toxic sludge and repair everything first.
I have found that the narcissistic in my life have the most trouble understanding this concept. They are the ultimate deadbeats.
Constantly asking for more. Always ready with a sob story or passive aggressive manipulation attempts. Anything to avoid giving back. Expecting massive praise and kudos for any insignificant contribution.
If they only used the time and energy addressing the imbalance instead.
But...they like power games too much.
Now, I can appreciate a skillful power play or manipulation, but anything obvious and cliche brings out the sadistic bitch in me.
Also, thank you for sharing.
Sounds like the feline Faust was quite the character too :)
I know what you mean about drinking up the happiness. There was great pleasure indeed in watching the emaciated, sickly, terrified creatures become chubby little balls of joy.
Kat
Harry, My visits to other realms always reap something useful. :) Life is bountiful. I always find a use for weeds I encounter while traipsing the garden. Dandelion wine is great.
DeleteKat, Thanks.
DeleteSince we're all eating out of the same garden, I believe it's in our mutual interest to clean up all toxic sludge. Garden roots don't respect boundaries, worm their way outside the fence, beyond our personal property. Same with potable water, breathable air. The elements reside within the commons of humanity, which, as you know, is full of BS. Good fertilizer for sure. I read recently that breathing in your own farts apparently promotes health! (From dross comes new life.)
Ah Faust the cat. I drank his chubby newfound loving happiness for over a decade. Thanks for reminding me.
PS Harry, My dad said the same thing. Making a living is enough for all beasts except mankind, it would seem.
DeleteI take the thorn out of the cat's paw, knowing it has claws and won't necessarily understand the motivation behind my actions (possibly scratching, biting, struggling). It's a cat, it can't understand my explanation - which would still be given for the tone of voice used.
ReplyDeleteIf it's a lion, it's getting a tranquilizer dart first ;)
I won't expect either to thank me. I don't expect that level of conscious cause-and-effect thought from cats of either genus. I do it because I can and because I choose to do it.
This has little bearing on how I might treat a human though. Different animal entirely.
It depends on the kind of thorn as well, SanDire.
Delete"It's a cat, it can't understand my explanation - which would still be given for the tone of voice used."
Considering the possibilities, I believe that tone of voice matters in this context. Sometimes, one's voice or its tone "is the message." It can remove a thorn just by making the right choice.
"This has little bearing on how I might treat a human though. Different animal entirely."
DeleteHow so, SansDire?
You are so predictable, Once (add other alters as necessary). I knew you couldn't resist answering if I commented. Do you have a crush on me? Trying to pull my pigtails? (You'll have trouble with the pigtails since they don't exist.) That's your cue to splutter, rant, and flail at the mirror like a demented budgerigar as usual. I'll be over here, ignoring you again :P
DeleteA human usually has opposable thumbs and the dexterity to remove the thorn themselves without too much effort. Doesn't mean they will, but they usually have the capability. The cat has to use its teeth (or a convenient human).
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ReplyDeleteYour Truly, You.
Do yourself and us a favour, champ.
DeleteGet off whatever drugs you are on. Practice writing simple sentences.
Here's a good resource for you:
http://www.primaryresources.co.uk/english/englishB5.htm
Knock yourself out. Literally :)
@HLHaller
ReplyDelete(page wouldn't allow me to reply directly on your post):
I quite like your comment.
The simplicity of life is enjoying its richness... that's easy.
Labels are shortcuts and rules have no "heart".
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It sounds like a “fine-grained” experiment in its thorn-shucking nature. However, no one has ever been inside the mind of a cat in real life (at least not fully or expertly if some experiments have previously occurred), so the cat’s nature might not be all about carelessness. I believe in evidence that is beyond a reasonable doubt, coupled with workable solutions that also evince a sense of practicality. It would mean fully “getting into the mind of a cat,” which, as of this date, has not been done. On the whole, it would be a worthwhile experiment.
ReplyDeleteIf your only goal is to be kind, just for the sake of being kind then you don´t really have a choice to help the cat or not... and by cat i mean (like mack slate (the wise aspie)) obviously a sociopath.
ReplyDeletenevertheless, these emotionally crippled heartless despicable pieces of stinking shit don´t really deserve compassion of any kind. it would be a waste of precious energy, breath and time... for them compassion and kindness are weaknesses to be exploited.
I agree sociopaths are emotionally crippled. To them, compassion and kindness are weaknesses to be exploited. Right again.
ReplyDeleteBut not all sociopaths are worthless. They can be very insightful, helpful, funny, thought provoking. Yes, they can easily see your weaknesses and use them to their benefit. But sociopaths can also see your strengths and help you build your self confidence. I truly believe some have a gift for this. Don't believe for second they are doing on for you. They are doing it for the high it gives them, and for potentially having you as an ally (when they can see that far ahead) that can help them in return, especially once they have helped you achieve beyond what you thought your potential was.
Don't expect this to be done gently, though. Think more of an army boot camp both aimed at destroying and strengthening your psychological and emotional being. Navy seal style.
I believe ME has one example in her life of a person she 'helped' like this. The strength in the person came after she was almost destroyed. In her book, ME only mentions the destruction. But if I read her posts correctly, the same person is now a very high functioning member of society with whom she has reconnected.
On the topic of compassion and kindness, you are right. They are weaknesses that can be exploited.
DeleteHere's the funny thing, though. I adore *genuinely* kind, compassionate people. Especially those who dedicate and risk their lives to helping others.
I think they are some of the rarest, most beautiful creatures in existence and have the utmost respect for them.
One such creature was a volunteer with MSF. When he was here, he went out of his way to help and encourage others to help the less fortunate. He was an incredibly sweet, generous person. Seemingly incapable of seeing suffering and not doing something to help.
Never bragged or called himself compassionate, kind, or anything of the like.
He was...extraordinary. Spectacularly beautiful.
People used him. Not sociopaths. People who considered themselves to be kind, good, honourable people.
I tried to help him see that not everyone deserves kindness, to protect himself, but he wouldn't hear of it.
On the other hand, you have those people who consider themselves to be "good", honourable, compassionate, kind souls.
Majority of them are hypocritical, selfish assholes. Their delusions of benevolence are glaring weaknesses.
These can often be seen on Facebook, rambling about love, truth and beauty. About empathy, kindness and what compassionate people they are.
They get into their circle jerks with like minded wankers and see not a trace of their own hypocrisy.
The kind who would take a picture of a dying homeless person, from accross the street, then post it along with a rant about society and sociopaths. Get into a big circle jerk with dozens of others.
"Oh the poor man! Thank God for empathetic, good people like us!" Meanwhile, not a single one did anything to help any homeless. Just gave themselves huge pats on the back for being so "caring".
Why go to all the pesky trouble of volunteering or doing anything when they already feel good about themselves?
As one of them admitted to me, " I'm not doing that. Not my job. It would be like putting a bandaid on a severed leg anyway. Besides, I prayed for him."
The same kind of people who rant about the great compassion they have for animals. About factory farming and how horrible it is...then in the next breath talk about how they are going to gorge themselves on meat.
They don't see a trace of irony or hypocrisy in what they do.
We all know of those hypocrites who call themselves the best men and women possible, yet are nothing more than ego worshiping assholes.
They truly deserve to have their delusions used against them.
Kat
This is a good point. The FNP gave me a great boost when I was in a very weak position at work. I expect I'd have gotten there myself, and he wasn't the only source I used to fuel my optimism, but he was very definitely the first.
DeleteIt was part of his seduction of me and didn't last long. But I didn't need it to.
You say sociopaths are not all worthless... What is worth?
One can learn from anyone or anything and enjoy the richness of any interaction, any event. Worth is in the eye of the beholder...
The universe is just....
A RORSCHACH INKBLOT (best quote ever)
The readiness, the perspective is all.
You've hit a nail in the framework of hominids: "The kind who would take a picture of a dying homeless person, from accross the street, then post it along with a rant about society and sociopaths. the framework: "
DeleteHypocrisy appears writ large throughout the spectrum.
@OldAndWise
Deletewhat the fuck!?
Who was talking about worth whatsoever?
My argument was that they: "don´t really deserve compassion of any kind. it would be a waste of precious energy, breath and time...".
I think you agreed 100% to that.
btw: "helping" and "army boot camp" it´s called today? i whould say go fuck yourself, but you subordinate idiot need help even with that?
i´d call the same things abuse and war...
many people are"insightful, helpful, funny, thought provoking" without being a backstabbing shitminded asshole, clinically called "a sociopath/psychpath" (altough sociopaths aren´t really helpful btw.).
@kat
i really didn´t get the joke... by that i mean i think your "funny thing" wasn´t funny at all.
what has your rant about "hypocrites who call themselves the best men and women possible, yet are nothing more than ego worshiping assholes" to do with sociopaths?
oh, that your "Spectacularly beautiful" flower of a person was "used by people. Not sociopaths.".
Nobody said everybody who isn´t a sociopath is a fine person...
What you did was the good old "the neighbour hits his wife even harder" argument. Or is it the "compared to narcissists we sociopaths are generally fine" argument?
you are just a fucking hypocrite, and by your comment i think we all know what you think about yourself, and of sociopaths for that matter.
Feel better now?
DeleteYou really are an entertaining retard when you get onto your high horse.
Shame you are incapable of stringing a few coherent sentences together and are clearly too blinded by emotion to understand much.
You honestly think that you accomplish anything by coming here and spewing this stupid shit? You think it makes you strong?
Grow up.
Let me guess...you got used and abused and have decided that you are not going to be a whimpering little bitch anymore?
So now you resort to throwing hissy fits and posturing in finest wigger fashion, whilst judging all sociopaths as being "heartless despicable pieces of stinking shit".
Pretty clear how badly you are still bleeding.
Pathetic.
Now, you can either talk like a rational adult and maybe one of the nice people here will take pity on you and try to help you...or feel free to continue your little meltdown.
As I said, I find pathetic wankers like you amusing :)
Kat
hmmm...
Deleteyou agreed with my initial statement that:"for them compassion and kindness are weaknesses to be exploited."
i presume you also agree that you are just a fucking hypocrite...
esspecially after having the fucking cheek respond that bullshit after ranting about... "those hypocrites who call themselves the best men and women possible, yet are nothing more than ego worshiping assholes."
i say go fuck yourself while being amused by me ;-)
Lol!
DeleteYou really are hilarious. And yes, I am laughing AT you, not WITH you.
Clearly you have chosen to continue the meltdown.
Did you behave like this with the sociopath that failed to appreciate what a special little snowflake you are?
Hmmm...now that I think about the way you behave here, probably not.
With him you took it like a good little bitch. Maybe got passive aggressive. Which in turn pissed him off further, until he finally got bored with you and left.
Leaving your broken, bleeding, bitter self to posture and spew venom at strangers on the internet to make you feel like you have the power.
Guess what, dumbass? He clearly still does.
OldAndWise probably saw it too. She was indulging your sad self. Telling you, in her own empathetic way, that she understands. That what you went through could be used to make you stronger.
Or...you could continue your hissy fits and not listen to good advice.
You want me to fuck myself? Sure.
Bleed some more and your misery just might inspire me enough ;)
Kat
Kat, on your original reply to OldAndWise's comment, I agree with your thoughts. I may not experience the same elated feelings towards someone who is genuinely kind, I do allot a certain amount of respect for them that I wouldn't others.
DeleteHowever, well said, really.
At the risk of getting into our won little circle jerk -
ReplyDelete"Why go to all the pesky trouble of volunteering or doing anything when they already feel good about themselves?" - Kat
I take the more confrontational approach. This is one of the things I often tell people openly: "if you have the energy to complain, you have the energy to do something about it."
There's an old bit about complaining that I've long appreciated. I've made more than a few young engineers listen to this (all six minutes) so that they would understand what I meant when I asked them, "are you asking for some moose turd pie?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zb1qsVqjwg
Lol!!
DeleteThat moose turd pie sure is good.
"if you have the energy to complain, you have the energy to do something about it."
Love everything about it.
I tell people variations of that all the time. Usually get met with a slight pout, as if they are trying to figure out why I am being so mean :D
I'm one of those people that if I have a problem, I either figure out how to fix it, or want people to help me come up with different solutions.
Either way, bitching and moaning whilst circling the drain, but making no moves to get out of the sink, is not my thing.
It's pathetic.
Like I tell the "warriors" I know, "if you used the time you spend whining and masturbating each other's egos to actually DO something constructive, just imagine how much better off you would be."
But of course it is much easier and more pleasant for them to sit on their ass, whine and blame everyone from sociopaths to corporations for all their failures.
In order to create a perfect universe one must indeed resolve problems. I would probably not pull the thorn from the cats paw because I would get scratched and so I would selflessly hint at someone else to remove the thorn from the cats paw.
ReplyDeleteI don't see why people complain about anyone helping someone else. Honestly if I were the cat I don't think the motivation would matter to me as long as they did not expect anything in return because they would not get anything and I hate having people mad at me for a variety of reasons, but mostly because I seem to absorb people's feels so they force me to be angry unwittingly lol. But seriously, who cares if it made them feel better? It isn't like it helped less.
What would a sociopath do if they are always told quite repeatedly that they are "insensitive" by multiple people? do sociopaths usually come across in that sense? are these repetitious adjectives used to describe them what pushes sociopaths to feign certain emotions (e.g sympathy)?
ReplyDeleteAlso, does being described in that way troubles them? are they bothered by it?
And how do they eventually learn that they are "different" from others? is it during puberty when they are trying to fit in with the pack?
"What would a sociopath do if they are always told quite repeatedly that they are "insensitive" by multiple people?"
DeleteChange how they present themselves around people? Feedback is always an important part of getting better at it.
"are these repetitious adjectives used to describe them what pushes sociopaths to feign certain emotions (e.g sympathy)? "
It's not the adjectives, nor really the social censure, it's more the lack of opportunities. If people know you're callous they'll cut you less slack, be more cautious etc. Since very people, socio or not, live in a way where they can just rely on only themselves this is actually important.
"And how do they eventually learn that they are "different" from others? is it during puberty when they are trying to fit in with the pack? "
I have some other issues that would also have caused it, but I realized I was different very early on. I mean I didn't know exactly how, it took a long time before I had the understanding and vocabulary to really articulate it. But just that feeling of being different was there.
They see reality for what it is and dislike the game. It is not before they choose to not participate in the farce, that they may be diagnosed. In addition, they need to be criminals to some extent. That latter part of the diagnosis will probably change. In the future, freethinkers will also likely be included as at minimum, potential sociopaths.
DeleteIntelligence is a course in modern society. Because intelligence makes it more difficult to self-delude. And if you fail in deluding yourself, you will appear as a stranger. A thumb rule, that is.
A middle-aged pensioner
Samaritans are deluded people, mostly. Some do it for pure economical reasons. Others for social profit. All do it for those reasons in general. But some avoid the trap of deluding themselves. The need to project their true motives. But most choose to explain their choices by proxy. They stop their logical reasoning exactly at the point where it maximizes their self boost.
Delete"I am at good person because I help people for a living"...STOP... (which again earns me money to do things I really rather do...)
Get it ? Sociopaths are not really like that. They go the distance, in their reasoning. Talking about so called high functioning ones here.
That I appreciate them (and probably myself) for.
Pensioner.
At last...
DeleteBecause of that mentioned process... Many sociopaths, the smarter ones, those that use their brain, have a period in life where they become scared of their own "personality". They see the bullshit and consider themselves as dishonest and bad people.
It is mostly pure non sense, which actually shows a certain amount of self-critic, which narcissist in general totally lack.
They may have a "wilder period in life", then accept them and the world for what it is, get on it with, and turn into really well functioning and nice people. Because. When it all comes down to it, "altruism" is just another illusion. Not believing in the illusion, will not take away some pleasure in participating in win-win situations. The pleasure of doing something that improves the situation for both parties.
The author of this site, is in a "wilder period". She will calm down. Go on with her life. Because mankind is a social animal. So if one acts truly selfish, that will also include doing positive things for fellow man. Some people just have to discover that fact, and in that process, they often have a very selfish period in life. The more intelligent ones, discover facts like I mention here, earlier in life. Some never.
Pensioner..
@Pensioner @Scarlet
Deleteit was a pleasure hearing your perceptions and ideas regarding these topics.
Thank you !
Actually, i personally am not a sociopath (at least i don't think i am) but i have been having a lot of issues because i seem to lack feelings. I come across as insensitive. To make it worse, other people are rapidly picking it up. Even my physics teacher (who only knows me when i am in her class) lectured me about these specific traits. She even advised me to choose a career in business because she thinks i have the "traits" to do it.
And i have been having issues with my family too. They also advised me to try to "fake sympathy".
I feel like if i don't change, very soon my relationships with people will go down the drain. In response to those persistent and reoccurring events, it is great time to attempt to fake certain emotions.
And somehow i ended up here, where we have masters regarding feigning specific required responses.
Expecting people to accept me as i am is really naive to.
Props to you guys, this shit actually required a lot of mental capacity.
i hope soon i also become a master at doing this.
Chee Tah
DeleteI can really empathize (ha!) with your situation. It sounds like there's a lot of pressure on you about it, but don't get frustrated if you can't master all this quickly. It takes time and even a few mistakes.
The easy cheat I use is to adapt a persona for situations I'm commonly in. For ex. at work my persona is a nervous, slightly socially inept but hardworking and sweet person. When in reality I'm cold, it's just easier to act rather than be myself.
But (and this is big) don't give up on being honest either. It just has to be with very specific people who'd get it. I'm in a relationship with another socio and we just click so well. It's a huge relief to just have companionship where you both understand each other perfectly. Not saying that's what you should do, but there's people out there so don't sell yourself short.
Scarlet
DeleteYou are so lucky to have that one person where you can be yourself with. For me right now, that's not the case. So i might use this time to work on some facade. That's a relief to hear that maybe someday i'll get good at this! I'm starting slowly, so far so good. I'll keep my ears open for incoming feedback in the future.
It's so unfair though. I hear about other people the way they always talk about others and they couldn't give a crap about other people. I actually think that empathetic people are like a disease too. They will talk crap but actually never mean it. They talk trash but never actually have real hatred for whomever. So confusing.
But somehow when I say it, i'm definitely a pathetic heartless person. The tone to which you use to say something too i guess plays a HUGE role in how other perceive you.
People are way too confusing but i gotta play my part if i want to survive.
I'm completing my reasoning from a more "socipathic" view. I might even be a little spiritual and label it "enlightened view"...
ReplyDelete"I am at good person because I help people for a living"...STOP... (which again earns me money to do things I really rather do...)
(But it was also nice to see person X being happy for our common solution. So yes. I am helping myself and as a bi-product, I am also helping another person. In addition, people even seem to like me for it. Not bad, not bad.)
Sorry guys. 1 more
ReplyDeleteYou see it is quite reasonable to even expect pro-social behavior even from people that lack the feeling of guilt. Normally, the industrialized society, will use guilt as their weapon against their own people. And if you don't feel a lot of guilt, your a "sociopath", "bad boy".. (There are children and stupid fucks at all levels of society. Even at the very top)..
What many in charge really express is something like this:
If you don't think and feel as I do, there must be something wrong with you
Ask them back: Why ? Are you a God ?
Capitalism is based on the assumption that all men are sociopaths. Only maximizing their own utility. Jesus man.. Fucking Christ... It isn't a flawless system, but it does work to a large degree... So how the hell do they conclude that a "sociopath can never be a nice person" ??
It would similar to claiming that "capitalism can never be a good system".. Most people aren't truly communists any longer. They would disagree with such a claim. But when it comes to "sociopathy", everything goes...
So yes. Behaving good or bad, has little to nothing to do with "sociopathy" in the true sense. At least not in the psychopathy sense. The diagnose is mostly just a short term for "you have been bad boy. Now start to behave you fool. You cannot act like you have done in the past".
Business and negotiating are two very natural playgrounds for the wiser sociopath. They see through the bullshit, but yet try to find common ground and come to a win-win situation.
Don't take this psychology shit too seriously. They were never the smartest people in the first place. If so, they would rather have joined Einstein or Pythagoras in their pure discoveries about the world. Most of them are narcs, considering themselves way smarter than they are. But exceptions are everywhere around.
Pensioner..
@ the middle aged pensioner
Deletehi
just cause you see the world for what it is:
first you say: "When it all comes down to it, "altruism" is just another illusion. Not believing in the illusion, will not take away some pleasure in participating in win-win situations."
then you say: "Business and negotiating are two very natural playgrounds for the wiser sociopath. They see through the bullshit, but yet try to find common ground and come to a win-win situation."
i say: they believe in the win/"not give a flying fuck about the other" situation. if there is a choice of "win/win" and "win even more/lose" situation they won´t hesitate for a second to choose the "win even more/lose" situation. THATS´S WHY the win/win situation isn´t and will never be sustainable with them...
cause even with a win/win they´ll regret not taking the "win even more/lose" sit. cause for them winning more is always better. right?
Sure. The greedy sociopath does. And that is what makes him in danger of being diagnosed. Chasing I won (as much as possible and give a f about the rest). But the wiser one, does think in longer term. When both wins, deals will be repeated. Contracts will be written.
DeleteMy point is, their motive, for giving something away, isn't rarely related to the other persons emotions directly, but more the good feeling one gets from knowing that a satisfied customer, is more likely to return to the shop. And that is just "good business". And good business is "admired sociopathy". Calculated longer term optimizing, instead of a once-for-all deal.
Some spelling error.
ReplyDeleteIt is less the feelings and more the "impulsivity" factor that differentiate the low vs high functioning. The high functioning is more likely to become an idol, role model.
The low functioning would play poker and always prefer to go all-in. Short term "action need" trumps. Overdose. Impatience. But not related to "altruism or concern about others". They would both give a fuck about that part. But the smarter one, would be able to get a smaller dose, more often and on a more regular basis. He will have to sacrifice his need for immediate action and satisfaction, impulsivity. And that capability, would very likely save him from being diagnosed a sociopath. But their isn't that much else that separates them, in reality.
"I help others to get a better life myself". We call it altruism. Pro-social egotism.
http://mashable.com/2015/06/05/man-cat-911/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link
ReplyDeleteTrue altruism is biologically impossible.
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