Not really apropos of anything in particular, but I liked this article about how people struggle with the concept of falsification:
In Paul Tough’s book, How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity, and the Hidden Power of Character, he tells the story of an English psychologist Peter Cathcart Wason, who came up with an “ingenious experiment to demonstrate our natural tendency to confirm rather than disprove our own ideas.”
Subjects were told that they would be given a series of three numbers that followed a certain rule known only to the experimenter. Their assignment was to figure out what the rule was, which they could do by offering the experimenter other strings of three numbers and asking him whether or not these new strings met the rule.
The string of numbers the subjects were given was quite simple:
2-4-6
Try it: What’s your first instinct about the rule governing these numbers? And what’s another string you might test with the experimenter in order to find out if your guess is right? If you’re like most people, your first instinct is that the rule is “ascending even numbers” or “numbers increasing by two.” And so you guess something like:
8-10-12
And the experimenter says, “Yes! That string of numbers also meets the rule.” And your confidence rises. To confirm your brilliance, you test one more possibility, just as due diligence, something like:
20-22-24
“Yes!” says the experimenter. Another surge of dopamine. And you proudly make your guess: “The rule is: even numbers, ascending in twos.” “No!” says the experimenter. It turns out that the rule is “any ascending numbers.” So 8-10-12 does fit the rule, it’s true, but so does 1-2-3. Or 4-23-512. The only way to win the game is to guess strings of numbers that would prove your beloved hypothesis wrong—and that is something each of us is constitutionally driven to avoid.
In Wason’s study, only 1 in five people were able to guess the correct rule.
And the reason we’re all so bad at games like this is the tendency toward confirmation bias: It feels much better to find evidence that confirms what you believe to be true than to find evidence that falsifies what you believe to be true. Why go out in search of disappointment?
In Paul Tough’s book, How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity, and the Hidden Power of Character, he tells the story of an English psychologist Peter Cathcart Wason, who came up with an “ingenious experiment to demonstrate our natural tendency to confirm rather than disprove our own ideas.”
Subjects were told that they would be given a series of three numbers that followed a certain rule known only to the experimenter. Their assignment was to figure out what the rule was, which they could do by offering the experimenter other strings of three numbers and asking him whether or not these new strings met the rule.
The string of numbers the subjects were given was quite simple:
2-4-6
Try it: What’s your first instinct about the rule governing these numbers? And what’s another string you might test with the experimenter in order to find out if your guess is right? If you’re like most people, your first instinct is that the rule is “ascending even numbers” or “numbers increasing by two.” And so you guess something like:
8-10-12
And the experimenter says, “Yes! That string of numbers also meets the rule.” And your confidence rises. To confirm your brilliance, you test one more possibility, just as due diligence, something like:
20-22-24
“Yes!” says the experimenter. Another surge of dopamine. And you proudly make your guess: “The rule is: even numbers, ascending in twos.” “No!” says the experimenter. It turns out that the rule is “any ascending numbers.” So 8-10-12 does fit the rule, it’s true, but so does 1-2-3. Or 4-23-512. The only way to win the game is to guess strings of numbers that would prove your beloved hypothesis wrong—and that is something each of us is constitutionally driven to avoid.
In Wason’s study, only 1 in five people were able to guess the correct rule.
And the reason we’re all so bad at games like this is the tendency toward confirmation bias: It feels much better to find evidence that confirms what you believe to be true than to find evidence that falsifies what you believe to be true. Why go out in search of disappointment?
the 1 in 5 was probably a "sociopath", or being a youngster a AD(H)D...
ReplyDeleteI saw two obious solution immediately. That is way too much "thinking outside the box"... "Dangerous...".
An advice to the youth..
A stupid abnormal, searches and hunts down I-win-You-loose situations..
Thus chances are quite big, that the behavior ends up in a ...path diagnosis. In particular if crimes are commited.
A smarter/wiser abnormal, hunts win-win situations. And is very likely to never be labeled anything else but "successful" and "attractive". Depending on what the person and his values consider a win.
Pensioner
Interesting.
ReplyDeleteGuess my paranoia and curiosity are particularly useful in cases like this. I have a very hard time trusting anything which looks that simple.
Instead of "confirming my brilliance", I'm far more likely to start wondering what the trick is and trying to figure out alternatives.
Pushing and prodding, studying, trying different approaches...
Drives people crazy sometimes.
Kat
CRIME PAYS! Casey Anthony is going to be payed $$$$$$ for an
ReplyDeleteinterview! A masterful sociopath!
Just playing along with the society. She knows how "it" thinks and ticks. A win-win situation.
DeletePensioner
I had some fun with this today - I put the question to a couple of engineers. They were mostly grateful that I didn't make them wait until tomorrow to tell them to "pattern." They "knew" it was a game - but it was really a struggle for them to "get it." Even then - there was some debate about rules and what was said.
ReplyDeleteI do have my own sort of "Aspie Love" I suppose... 8)~
Excellent fun. It is a good trick. Modern "Milgram" may I suggest :)
DeleteYou were playing on mankind need to see patterns, even when they do not exist or when they can be various. Their need to able to control their environment. So they see things. Like God. It is actually pretty close to the gambler's fallacy. It is how most betting sites earn their money. Not that true patterns don't exist. Many games can be beaten, despite the "common knowledge". But the percentage win, isn't exactly a jackpot, but still a win. Those who get those patterns, are the people who searches for the truth, and less motivated by immediate unpleasant cognitive dissonance.
You should try the trick in your church community.
Should one suggest, that non-sociopaths and sociopaths often share a same similarity ? The quick fix. Impulsivity. Sociopaths for action, and non for calmness, cooling down their nerves. Maybe a little truth to that.
Pensioner
"Not that true patterns don't exist. Many games can be beaten, despite the "common knowledge". But the percentage win, isn't exactly a jackpot, but still a win. Those who get those patterns, are the people who searches for the truth, and less motivated by immediate unpleasant cognitive dissonance."
DeletePensioner, I believe that it is only by asking the “impossible” that you can obtain from a unique situation, a well-developed hypothesis, a pattern as mentioned in this post, or even a human relationship, all that is possible. Imagination and concepts are always in the foreground of the possible reality. A person in a given situation, or within the designed elements of a hypothesis, can create possibilities never heard of before, and so predetermines the development of what is to come. The person's creative spirit imposes on the situation rules to which it gradually “conforms.” That is the antecedent of such a situation’s development. I don't know of any case where the reverse took place.
Hmm...my reaction to reading Milgram was to wonder why people just accept the "authority." My nature has always been to resist external pressure and distrust authority - to my own detriment on some occasions.
DeleteI am quite devoutly agnostic - and I'm often in it for the "long con," if you will.
Beautiful.
ReplyDeleteLife is a series of experiments and "failures" are datapoints.
This is why it's great to
a) do what you feel like doing
b) approach each situation as completely new
Beginner's mind & try-mind. These reduce confirmation bias and allows you to explore the delightful richness the universe offers at your fingertips.
The FNP once insisted he was adaptable and flexible every day (because I was lauding these characteristics). I see now how he really is that way.
Curiosity is the best condiment for the meals life serves up.
"Curiosity is the best condiment for the meals life serves up." My new favorite motto. I am truly amazed by how little curiosity most people have. People always wonder why I can talk intelligently about almost every subject. It is because my curiosity drives me to study them. Intelligent people are really just curious people. Talented/skilled ones are curious, patient and driven. Curious to learn a new skill. Curious to study the depths and intricacies of their subject. Patient and driven enough to keep practicing and improving on it no matter the obstacles and difficulty.
DeleteA while back we determined that most of the sociopaths have an artistic side. It is odd to me that my poor impulse control is paired with limitless patience. I am both lazy about things that bore me but if my interest is piqued I am the most determined hard working creature on the planet. Learning new things or refining my knowledge base on old subjects gives me a kind of high. The other reward is people ego stroking me when I demonstrate a talent.
I fully suspect that Casey knows of M.E. and the two have been in contact.
ReplyDeleteIt's a "win win " for both.
I'm glad that M.E. has another project that she can involve herself in.
$$$$$$ for both! Two unbeatable sociopath powerhouses.
Very intriguing. I do note that I look for supporting evidence, but I do like to look at things from the opposite side. I convinced myself as a child that even though it was difficult, I wanted to know the REAL truth, and it would be a waste of my time to seek anything else, even if it makes me happy. So I try to pretend I am looking at things from different perspectives. I am not good at being objective when I am talking though. I keep it to paper/computer.
ReplyDeleteGames are fun. Reply with a word and I'll tell you if it gets through the green glass door. No cheating, and don't play if you already know how it works.
ReplyDeleteDog.
DeleteMeteorite
DeleteBeetroot
DeleteBeetroot yes, dog and meteorite no.
DeleteFrom Twitter:
ReplyDelete"I "fixed" my lack of empathy by coming to a understanding that all people have worth. That all people have THE SAME WORTH"
What a load of shit.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that this bastion of equality and wisdom would place the same worth on an old, crazy junkie who tries to lure little kids into abandoned buildings, as she would for, say her favourite celebrity or her own child.
Suurrrree she would.
But I bet talking about it makes her feel very special indeed...
You can read and parrot all the inspirational quotes as you wish.
At the end of the day, all people were not created equal. And anyone trying to sell inspirational bullshit as a "cure" for something like lack of empathy, is nothing more than delusional or a bullshit artist.
Kat
Go a bit more meta. Existence is equality.
DeleteYou have as much worth as a blade of grass. As do I. And your your crazy junkie.
Anything else is interpretation. And who says your interpretation has more value (read: worth).
I don't think empathy is the "problem". The "problem" is people not taking responsibility for their own existence.
Hell, I had a lot more thoughts on confirmation bias but this distracted me and now I have a meeting.
Oh please.
DeleteMy eyes just rolled so hard, I thought they would get stuck.
Existence is not equality.
And yes, whilst the actual worth of individual objects, or people, boils down to perception, everything is far from being equal.
Let's say that I am in your house and have a can of gasoline and a lighter. I also have you tied up.
Next to you is a small pile of grass clippings. See how nice I am? I'm already giving you more worth than a single blade of grass :)
I have a real itch to light something on fire. Which would you choose for me to ignite?
It is a whole pile of grass vs only one "enlightened" little retard...
Kat
Doesn't address the question of worth at all, only your perception of it.
DeleteDying is for muppets. Do you really think you could get me in such a position?
Yet we all die.
Oh, but it does address it.
DeleteIf your worth was indeed the same as a blade of grass, then not only would it be a no brainer which I should torch (like I said, only 1 moron vs an entire PILE of grass)...but if nothing else, it would also be as legal for me to do that to you as to the grass :)
To say that everything has worth- absolutely. To say that everything has equal worth- is retarded.
Dying is for Muppets?
Do I think I could get you in such a position?
Seriously? That's the best you have to offer? Sounded deep and profound in your brain, though, I bet.
You are so concerned with validating your own thought, be it with deflection, double talk...whatever helps you reinforce your belief...that you throw even simple logic out the window.
Kat
Everything has the worth you give to it. A cow would think that the grass clipping had more worth than a person since the grass can be eaten. Take rocks for example. A pound of gold versus a pound of flint for instance. They are both rocks so why, when offered a choice between the two, would most people take the gold? We as a society have given the gold a higher value than the flint at this point in time. Yet if we were offered that in the far past most would take the flint since it is more useful. (You can start fires with it and makes much better weapons than gold). At the most basic level though both are rocks. They only have the value we give them, which changes according to circumstances we do not ourselves control.
DeletePeople have the worth you give them at each moment dependent too on outside factors beyond your control, That junkie is someones child, perhaps someones father, maybe he is junkie because he is a veteran who got addicted to painkillers when he was injured saving an orphanage. Should someone take him in and sober him up he might do amazing things in the future. Maybe you child is a bully. Perhaps your own child will become a mass murderer one day. Existence gives things/people value because as long as you live you could do something amazing.
Live without putting judgments on things, without putting expectations on things and you give yourself and everyone else freedom. By giving things "different values" based only on your incomplete knowledge and expectations you are limited them and yourself. Everything has potential. Everyone changes.
As I said:
Delete"Existence is not equality.
And yes, whilst the actual worth of individual objects, or people, boils down to perception, everything is far from being equal."
Point is, pretty much everyone puts specific values upon both things and people. Those who say they don't, I'm calling delusional or full of shit.
I am perfectly aware that I make judgements based on incomplete knowledge and expectations. Is there any other way?
In the real world, everybody does, every day and there is no such thing as complete knowledge.
We expect that our spouses would not put poison in the coffee they have offered us.
We expect that the driver of the bus that takes us to work is not high as kite and about to crash us into a ditch.
We expect that the dinner the waiter serves us at a restaurant is not full of his various bodily fluids.
Say what you will, having expectations and judging is normal and sometimes necessary.
Curious, what would you do if it was late at night and your teenage daughter needed to take the bus across town. As the bus pulls up, you see it is full of what appears to be white supremacists. Those adorable swastikas on foreheads and all...
What do you do?
Do you listen to that part of your brain that *shock* judges them to be less than ideal company for your teenage daughter, at night and possibly alone?
Goodness, you can't do that. That would be limiting both yourself, her and them. Based on incomplete knowledge :)
Do you shrug it off and let her go with no problems? Without worrying? Seriously?
As for value of people, we see "our own", whatever that may be, as being more valuable to us.
Personally, if I had to choose between say...my niece and a perfect stranger's child, I would choose her without blinking. Every time. Because that 16 year old little hellion might drive me crazy, but she is worth more to me than almost any other.
Can you really tell me that you do not have people you value more than any others in your life? Is every single person you meet just as valuable to you as your own flesh and blood?
The fact that what I consider to be relatively worthless might be your prized posession, is entirely irrelevant.
The point is that everything does not have EQUAL value.
And selling a philosophy that has little to no basis in reality, as some sort of cure for lack of empathy, is delusional or a scam.
Kat
Kat,
DeleteYou are trying to get an ought from an is and you are failing.
The only "oughts" here are in the flawed philosophy of North and Puppy, who are claiming that people ought to not judge, ought not have expectations and ought to consider everyone as having the SAME value.
DeleteThey have entirely failed to show how the philosophy has any real implications for the reality of those who lack empathy.
I am presenting the "is" that not only are judging, assigning values and having expectations perfectly normal, but necessary. That pretty much everyone, including them, judges, has expectations and operates on incomplete knowledge.
There is also the "is" that there is no such thing as complete knowledge, since we have no way of knowing all the variables of any particular situation.
I am also very much implying the "is" that people who talk about being something that they don't actually embody, are hypocrites or delusional :)
And yes, mine is very much the pragmatic approach.
Apparently a trademark of the ISTP personality type, funnily enough...
Kat
Pot, kettle.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't engage in discussion if I weren't testing my own point of view.
Legal worth - sure. Comes back to social contract.
Dying - well, these are choices, chains of consequence, not questions of worth. Would I die for a thought experiment? Probably not.
The question is around whether people are created "equal". I'm simply proposing existence is the only unbiased measure of equality, with everything else being an interpretation of the inkblot of reality.
Not that rhetoric isn't fun ;)
Would love to chat more but prepping for third meeting of the morning. Hence incomplete sentences.
Lol!
DeleteYou engaged in this discussion because my belief that not all people have equal worth went against your idea that EVERYTHING in existence has equal worth.
You wanted to show what a deep thinker you are.
Don't try to backtrack by claiming you are only suggesting that all people are created equal. However they are created, they do not end up as such.
It is one of those philosophical quotes that sounds oh so deep, but in reality is a load of shit.
People naturally place higher value on certain other people. I am simply more honest.
They say they don't because it makes them feel better about themselves, like they are more enlightened, accepting, caring...
It is a delusion.
Even Mother Teresa, whose name is synonymous with good will, acceptance, equality...if having been put in the extremely uncomfortable situation of having to choose which should be destroyed (a clear way to make you assign precise values and compare them)...would probably have picked an orphan over her precious Diana.
The rationalisation might be that Diana was a mother, a philanthropist with influence, who can do so much for the poor... whatever, it becomes clear that the life she chose to be extinguished clearly didn't mean as much to her.
That is why I say that the person who was quoted in the Twitter is delusional or full of shit. Or both.
As to what you were saying:
Dying for a thought experiment? Where is your simple logic?
The point of that thought experiment is that if you were asked to choose between yourself and a blade of grass, you would almost definitely choose yourself. Because you are worth more to yourself than the grass.
If you were honestly convinced your worth was equal, then might as well flip a coin as to which should be set on fire, no?
Ok, another thought experiment. Say I have some crotchety 70 year old granny in one chair. Your 3 year old daughter in another.
I'm getting that itch again...
If you do not pick, I will kill both of them and then you.
Which one would you sacrifice? Why?
Do try not to deflect this time :)
Kat
So acerbic of late, Kat. I like it of course. I also like the scenarios involving fire. Something is certainly burning within you, I wonder what?
DeleteAlso, all people are certainly not created equal. I'm not so full of myself to say that I'm better than anyone else, just more useful in a lot of ways, and to certain people more interesting.
Children don't start to accumulate memories until 4 years of age or so, thus ending a 3-year old's life signifies the end of an unexamined life. Is there potential there? Sure, but if accumulated experience has any value then we should save the 70-year old.
Besides, wouldn't it be interesting to see what happens to you when you set a child on fire? Old people die all the time, but to watch someone kill a child, why, that's a once in a lifetime experience!
What do you value, Kat? You see, I value experiences, truly. 'Things' have never brought me much pleasure, nor people with whom I cannot share an enlightening experience. Even the painful ones are worthy lessons, and the more it hurts the more beautiful it is to look upon in retrospect. That sweet mingling of joy and sorrow, to see your mistakes through the unforgiving lens of clarity and truth, it is worth living for.
@Kat:
DeleteYours is a pragmatic perspective - always commendable - pointing out what are essentially power differences between humans. That power differences exist is not a surprise to me. This comes back to people taking responsibility for their own experience of life.
But again, the question raised is not of pragmatism or power. It's a question of value judgement. Judgement of worth.
And again, I say to you that all value judgements are subjective, and that the only objective standard is existence in itself. If we really want to get metaphysical (I'm guessing not) we can make arguments that our physical organism is one consistent process with the entire universe (thanks, Alan Watts). Our organisms, most would grant, are certainly not closed systems. And since you ask about "creation" being equal... that's the basis for my assertion.
So why is it useful to conceive of ourselves as no more special than anything else in the universe? Because it is pure freedom from expectation - both of ourselves and other people. You can see - and experience - your cognitions (thoughts, feelings) as mere bubbles on the integrative surface of your organism - bubbles you can pay attention to or forget.
Our "self" is a property emerging from the operation of our brains. It is integrative function merging our experience of 'now' with wired patterns of memory and skill and "instinct" to produce responses to the environment. To survive. I HIGHLY recommend this article: http://www.newphilosopher.com/articles/you-are-not-who-you-think-you-are/
And once you see that, you are free to remake the Matrix, so to speak, by breaking or remaking your perceptive framework. Yes, you can see the power structures in operation. You have clarity into people's intentions. You can see we are all simply organisms *surviving* and you can utilise your particular resource set to survive in really rather enjoyable ways. Society is a context rather than a constraint.
Do you get the shelter and sustenance you need? The sex? The company? Whatever else you want? Are you able to sustain your supply of these things? Yes? Then who cares what label society puts on you. Or what labels you put on others.
No one is compelled to justify their existence, their worth.
Mind you, if they choose to live in miserable ways, that's up to them.
So your thought experiments are interesting and show us what is granted: humans have personal preferences that are biologically and culturally driven. Think empathy circles and preservation of one's own gene pool (I don't want to make this a dissertation...) and I think I've produced enough tangents for one post.
The not dying for a thought experiment line was a throwaway. In reality, if I were allow myself to be tied up, then I'm a muppet ("Is he dead? Then he's a muppet" ... something like that, from Wire in the Blood. Great show and Robson Green is sexy.)
Perhaps this will give you something more tangible to argue against. And back to confirmation bias - yep, I totally love to confirm my own ideas. Then I test each and every one in the laboratory of my own life. Thus far, I'm happy with the results... and that's super easy because every "failure" is a datapoint and an impetus for change.
I'm a synthesiser of ideas: that's why I'm hanging out here... I like the "honesty" as you put it. Well, I think it's a lens clear of some of society's dogma. I'll always be on the fringe and I'm cool with that because good things are easy to get anyway and here I live freely and with much more joy than in environments bound up with rules.
I did want to throw in some playful lines, but hey, I enjoyed writing this probably more than the teasing...
@Ryan: I love your point about valuing experience and the retrospective beauty of painful experience.
My my, aren't you the curious one...
DeleteAcerbic? Yes.
Of late? Not particularly. I grew rather fond of speaking my mind and telling people the truth in the past few years.
When I first came here 3 years ago, under the name Green Eyes, it was a bit of a game to see how sweet I can convince people I am.
In the wise words of UKan, I was either lying to myself or others. Turns out it was both...
This is who I am.
Playful even as I am being mean to the core. Utterly intolerant of hypocrisy, narcissism and bullshit such as those inspirational sayings.
I value the search for the truth. Knowledge. Growth. And yes, experiences.
Truly love it when someone can teach me something new, interesting and useful. Shows me a brand new way. Shakes me up.
Personally, if we are talking about lighting people on fire, I would almost always pick the child to live. I adore children and they tend to gravitate to me.
The way they see the world, how they speak even the harshest truths in their adorable little voices, their relentless curiosity, their resilience, the way they can make almost anything fun, how you can shape their whole reality with some carefully placed words, the incredible potential in each one.
No accumulated wisdom beats that.
What is burning within me, you ask?
The fire of life ;)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VkmHc96xh-g
Tell me more about you.
Kat
Lovely song, full of languorous sensuality with lyrics that would fit a much harsher theme. He revels where another might scream.
DeleteChildren are refreshingly straightforward, they have no complex machinations or underlying goals. They are bundles of energy and desire, little flames themselves.
Everyone can offer a new perspective. Some will paint a bleaker or blander picture than what your own eyes see, and others tilt the world giving new angles, and directing light into blinding flashes of vibrant color and insight.
I like to understand people, to dig deep into their minds. There's a moment where it hits you like a rockslide, when you finally understand their perspective and everything fits. It bowls you over, and suddenly you've got it. They cast shadows where you shine, and bring light to your darkness.
Sweet is nice, but I live for fire. It makes my mouth water. But, am I a soul-sucking vortex of despair, finding flames, drawing in their heat until they are as cold and empty as I? Or, when I see a flame, do I try to kindle it to see how hot and bright it can burn?
It is my wish to burn, to have my own fire kindled to living and eternal flame. A wish unfulfilled, the dream of a spark, so far an empty hope.
North,
DeleteI know you mean well.
I am 100% with you about labels being unnecessary and personal responsibility being a must.
As I say, "if you don't like something, don't wish, whine or wallow. Get off your fucking ass and do something about it."
But this whole metaphysical, New Philosophy shit...Seriously, I felt my eyes glazing over after 3 sentences. It happens when my Bullshit Detector detects dangerously high levels of the substance.
Yes, mine is a pragmatic approach.
You claim this has worked for you, good for you. Tells me you were most likely not sociopathic to begin with. Probably just depressed.
As a "cure" for lack of empathy? I'm calling bullshit on that one.
But one funny thing, of all the different types of people I have known, the ones who talk a lot about metaphysics, New Age wisdom, spirituality, love, truth and beauty, etc...are those who least personify it. The biggest hypocrites I have had the displeasure to meet and by far the most likely to hold themselves up as bastions of goodness, whilst actually being needy, self centered assholes.
It is a delusion. A safety blanket against the real world that allows them to rationalise their destructive behaviours.
Not saying this applies to all of them, certainly not saying this applies to you, just almost all of those people I ever encountered.
Kat
Ryan,
DeleteAs beautiful as painful experiences may be, I can't help but think you may be the flame that draws Borderline moths, but dies just a little more every time their lovely fluttering wings crumble into bitter ashes.
I know what it is to want to burn.
To close your eyes and smile, truly smile, as you feel it dancing inside you. Igniting every nerve fibre. Making you feel more alive than you thought you could.
But to rely on another to get an eternal flame roaring within you...is not for me. Too much pressure, expectation and inevitable disappointment. Would never give another that much power over me anyway.
Will never be the one pining in the moonlight:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-SaWum-LFDk
I don't need anyone to complete me. I am already whole.
But I do dearly love those who challenge me, make life even more passionate, enjoyable, fun.
Money, material possessions, shallow physical beauty or social status fail to excite me in the least, so my favourite people are those who, as you so beautifully put it, "tilt the world giving new angles, and directing light into blinding flashes of vibrant color and insight".
Those who have tried to control and extinguish my flame, however, are the ones who find themselves crying why oh why am I such a sadistic bitch :)
Would love to hear more about you. You fascinate me.
Kat
@Kat
DeleteIt isnt wrong what youre saying. I dont disagree. But does your attitude make you happy ? Has your life improved by anticipating negative shit from people in general ? Are people queing to invite you at their party ?
Philosophically speaking what you say is interesting. Just when it comes down to real life meetings, one should be a bit distanced from ones theoretical view upon things and the world. What YOU see, is often what YOU get. As goes for everyone
Pensioner
The moths still flit close, but they find me colder than I once was. I must admit that I miss the wild ride, but I'm getting a bit old for emotional rollercoasters.
ReplyDeleteI'm fine by myself, truly fine but never more than fine. My dreams have always been bigger than I am, and most fires lit from within burn hot and fast ad I realize my lack of reach. I love the stress and anxiety of a challenge, but only if I have a chance of succeeding. That's the thing with borderlines, you think you can get through to them but it's impossible. Tantalizingly close, but always out of reach. I need to be challenged, I need it like air and without it I'm suffocating.
If I weren't at a coffee shop I'd watch the music video, I like rammstein. Do they scream in that one? Sometimes a scream of rage, triumph, futility, is what I need to hear.
I once tried to control others, but I've stopped. I find it's more interesting to cast away feeble puppet strings and let people choose what they will. All I need to control are my own feelings in response to their actions. Rather than act on my feelings, to try and control them through influencing others, I keep them inside under scrutiny.
It is frighteningly easy to be sadistic from a position of anonymity. Sometimes I think perfect honesty and sadism are the same thing. The truth wounds, and lies protect. At the same time, though, undesired truths have presented the best opportunities for growth and healing. The harsher, the more painful, the better, so long as you listen and seek to improve.
"Sometimes I think perfect honesty and sadism are the same thing. The truth wounds, and lies protect. At the same time, though, undesired truths have presented the best opportunities for growth and healing. The harsher, the more painful, the better, so long as you listen and seek to improve."
DeleteTruer words... :)
I used to be pretty much the definition of pathological liar. Those sweet lies rolling off my tongue like so much honey. Until I didn't care about having the person in my life, that is.
Funniest thing is that it was my ex, who loved to talk about truth whilst being the most delusional liar I have ever met, that insisted upon what he called "uber truth".
Once tried, I was hooked and he quickly discovered that he never wanted it after all...
He, like most others, don't want anything that would please Veritas. They want us to tell them beautiful lies, but swear on everything we deem holy they are the complete truth. Ease their insecurities, confirm their delusions, make them feel good.
They simply can't handle ugly truth. Yet in the next breath, they will praise it and condemn the liar...
Indeed, one of the best weapons in a sadist's arsenal is the truth. It seems to be most devastating when delivered calmly, with a smile.
And yes, there is enormous potential for transformation and growth, if one is able to put ego aside and take in perfect honesty.
But... how many can do so? Even M.E. had the meltdown of the year when I gave her a little taste.
As for sadism and anonymity, yes, it is easy, but I don't find it very satisfying at all.
I do, however, derive great pleasure from hurting the highly narcissistic, passive aggressive and delusional in my life.
Curious, how old are you, Ryan?
Have you been married?
Why do you find you dreams out of reach?
Kat
@Kat
DeleteCrossed wires there.
You are quite correct: I’m not a sociopath. But one sure as hell threw my frozen heart into the sun. Or perhaps he stuck a hypodermic needle of adrenalin straight into my chest. Either way, he woke me up to the fact my models for understanding reality & humanity were sorely lacking. I experienced a Big Bang in my mind, which is now expanding in all directions so rapidly I barely have time to crystallise thought; each new epiphany unlocking numerous others in cascading neural bursts.
New Philosopher is a mainstream, progressive philosophy magazine and that article describes implications of evolution for the concept we hold of the self. We are merely organisms. I still recommend the article.
I am not talking butterflies and rainbows. Lack of empathy does not 'need' to be cured. One only 'needs' to survive. Preferably happily - that's where individual choice comes in.
I am talking about accepting and enjoying the organism - including its particular psychological makeup - evolution has gifted each of us with. In the end, it's about survival. And enjoying it.
My read is that sociopaths are mostly good at this but seem occasionally to get hung up on rationalising behaviour. All I'm saying is that it's unnecessary.
I like to abstract my view and consider myself merely as a member of the human species. Does anyone care about the pains of a particular ant? Generally, we look at its function as a member of its community. So with us. None of us are anything special.
Yet - and you know it! - any individual can get off his arse and make his life an enjoyable experience. Very powerful.
Will try not to bang on too much. I’m sure we’ll cross streams / paths / swords again at some point. Because it was fun.
I have no idea whether or not my perspective has any relevance to sociopaths but right now I want to test. And yeah, dig into the black box that is me and I am disappointed I can't have these conversations with him. He's creative, not a thinker. And freak, he’s engaging enough to keep me interested at this point.
Currently, you all fascinate me. I’m gleaning many useful insights - But don’t worry, I am all about acting in accordance with my own nature. Which is empathetic. And at this point, highly curious and experimental.
Thanks for the cool convo.
*only engaging
Delete"But one sure as hell threw my frozen heart into the sun. Or perhaps he stuck a hypodermic needle of adrenalin straight into my chest. Either way, he woke me up to the fact my models for understanding reality & humanity were sorely lacking. I experienced a Big Bang in my mind, which is now expanding in all directions so rapidly I barely have time to crystallise thought; each new epiphany unlocking numerous others in cascading neural bursts."
DeleteHe has done all of the above with and for you, and yet, he is not a thinker as you mention toward the end of your comment? That sounds quite contradictory to me, North, since none of that could have been accomplished or possible without prior thinking, design, analysis and implementation. The mind of an "experimental" person can only be the "thinking," analytical type. However, I can relate in some ways, since I have a duality within me comprising of both thinking and creating. Sometimes, I accomplish all my thinking in advance, and then present the "creative result" to another, interested person in a given situation. It baffles me to observe that some individuals cannot see and acknowledge the profound thinking that originated and gave life to that ensuing, creative process and result.
"I am disappointed I can't have these conversations with him. He's creative, not a thinker. And freak, he’s engaging enough to keep me interested at this point."
Did you try having these conversations with him in real time? Based on your mode of expression and its manifestation as opposites, it does not sound as though you know this person well. I, for one, would engage in conversations of this particular nature, providing that I encounter structured and/or organized thinking in the other person. I am both a thinker (structured) and a creator (creativity develops in various ways, and often, it is not "structured" in the traditional sense of the word), and I show each one of my sides, or both, depending on the situation or on the capacity of the person with whom I am interacting. Could it be that you do not comprehend his thinking or, to be more exact, his specific level of thinking, and so, wrongly concluded that he is not a thinker? Could it be that he feels bored when certain subjects become obviously repetitive? However, if you consider yourself a thinker, none of this ("But one sure as hell threw my frozen heart into the sun. Or perhaps he stuck a hypodermic needle of adrenalin straight into my chest. Either way, he woke me up to the fact my models for understanding reality & humanity were sorely lacking. I experienced a Big Bang in my mind, which is now expanding in all directions so rapidly I barely have time to crystallise thought; each new epiphany unlocking numerous others in cascading neural bursts.") would have been possible without it. Since I know myself quite well and I have experienced this in the past, did you ever think that he might be disappointed in not being able to have conversations in some areas or on other, higher levels of thinking or comprehension with you?
Hi Once,
DeleteThanks for your comment.
"However, I can relate in some ways, since I have a duality within me comprising of both thinking and creating. Sometimes, I accomplish all my thinking in advance, and then present the "creative result" to another, interested person in a given situation. It baffles me to observe that some individuals cannot see and acknowledge the profound thinking that originated and gave life to that ensuing, creative process and result. "
This is very interesting. Would you like to share an example (even abstracted if that's more suitable to you?)
"He has done all of the above with and for you, and yet, he is not a thinker as you mention toward the end of your comment? That sounds quite contradictory to me, North, since none of that could have been accomplished or possible without prior thinking, design, analysis and implementation. The mind of an "experimental" person can only be the "thinking," analytical type. "
Oh, he is a genius, no doubt. A master of seduction. We had an affair that lasted 7 months and ended 13 months ago. There has been some cat-and-mouse since then, including his attempting to get a restraining order on me in February. He wasn't successful but we agreed to mutual undertakings before the court not to contact each other. And there's been some cat and mouse since then. Two weeks ago, he said "Hi"... his first word to me since last August. So yeah, we're not talking at all, let alone about these sorts of things.
I think his desired effect was my addiction to him and he certainly accomplished that. He was so comprehensively successful, there was so much neural energy from the confusion and pain that I exploded what remained of my life... to start from scratch. But that starting from scratch, this copernican revolution in my thinking, is at my direction, not his. I do still use the energy I get from any small encounter with him though. It alternately thrills and flattens me still, but I recognise my own role in this process and know it to be a wave-like phenomenon. The freedom I experience now is not attributable to him - but he was the catalyst and were he not so effective, I would not be fascinated.
"Could it be that you do not comprehend his thinking or, to be more exact, his specific level of thinking, and so, wrongly concluded that he is not a thinker?"
In our relationship, we didn't talk much about philosophical topics although I remember one occasion. His mind is sharp and very flexible but his logic was rather strange. I remember laughing good-naturedly and thinking he was cute.
And he would often mention his interest in psychology but when pressed at all, would deflect. I often asked to see his code and said I wanted to understand his mind and he certainly never let me see his code after that.
So yes, your suggestion is possible. At work, he tends to be a solo operator; he turns anything into an opportunity to create something beautiful and useful in a spreadsheet. I often wondered how I might deploy his skillset on an engagement - he articulates all sorts of strange and unlikely possibilities and comes across as risk averse. He seems to do very well in technical roles.
But you are right in saying I don't know him very well. He's very private, and I have not enough data.
"Since I know myself quite well and I have experienced this in the past, did you ever think that he might be disappointed in not being able to have conversations in some areas or on other, higher levels of thinking or comprehension with you?"
Is this relatedness? How does it feel for you?
I was just a game to him; not very important at all. He did say, though, a few times, that he was learning a lot from me. He likes learning.
His MBTI type is ISFP and he was very much ISFP like, at least with me. I am INTJ. His creativity was all in the seduction, in the creation of theatre and I encouraged it. That was his strength (that, and his "technique" ;) ).
Thanks.
Hello Kat,
DeleteMy dreams are out of reach because I have a goal and a path to achieve it, but in the way are hurdles I can't yet clear. There's a part of me that wants to start running headlong down the path, but I freeze up before I take the first step because each hurdle is a wall and I've started trying not to throw myself forcibly into solid objects. Necessity drives me, and I don't yet need my dreams to become reality, though I desire them to.
Lovely song! I don't really believe in soulmates, but that doesn't mean I think souls can't mate. That connection is a choice to be made, or not. I think it requires true devotion to Veritas as you might put it, but believe me, it would be an easier thing to stand naked in front of a crowd of thousands than to bare my soul completely to one person. There is no light without darkness, and I am grateful that the darkness in my heart does not work its way to my hands. I am capable, but unwilling to divest myself of every resource and join a monastery. I am capable, but unwilling to soak my hands in blood, to bring pain and misery and enjoy it. It's a dual shame, to see that I could be better and not reach for it, and to know I am capable of being worse and not reach for that either.
I don't mean to paint myself as some tortured soul, I'm not. I simply don't pretend that I know my limits. My behavior is a choice, and I accept responsibility for it.
I find it interesting that you were able to share the truth with someone, completely. I have nobody with whom I could do that. I never have, and I don't anticipate I ever will. Everyone has boundaries. I don't judge when it comes to grey areas of morality, or even when those areas approach the deepest shade of black. Or crimson, though those are much more fun to hear.
Ha, yes, even M.E. has her buttons, if you know where to press. I agree, narcissistic, passive aggressive people with delusions are fun now. I haven't lost the ability to present myself as what they want, but those former areas of soft vulnerability are now hardened calluses, and I can feel them pressing yet I don't respond. I know what they want, what they need, and I simply don't give it to them. I used to want to, but not anymore. And oh, how they hate to lose, don't they? They must win, and it drives them insane to not reach their precious resolutions.
I am between 28-32 years old and have been married 0-2 times. Yourself?
“This is very interesting. Would you like to share an example (even abstracted if that's more suitable to you?)”
DeleteThere is a recent, non-abstract example, which I can share within this context. It actually occurred in a recent post on this site. My comment, which was addressed to Faust, had to do with two individuals bridging the space between each other, or conversing with one another “privately and exclusively,” through the medium of two prompters installed at the bottom of a stage (i.e., not two electronic monitors as it is the case today; instead, it would occur in the prior mode wherein two actual human beings were standing inside of the prompters and whispering lines to the performers on the stage of the opera). Within this “private,” conversational construct and for this distinct purpose, I specified that instead of human beings, inanimate props would fill the stage. I based my thinking, which I accomplished in advance as I explained in my previous comment, on the “Cartesian Self.” Although I initially believed that Faust would comprehend my point, his reply was not what I expected:
“Q. Why are the inanimate objects inanimate?”
Having said that, in philosophy, the Cartesian Self is the counterpart to the Cartesian Other. Descartes believed in the intrinsic divide to human consciousness, maintaining that one cannot “ever bridge the space between one's own consciousness and that of another.” In an attempt to connect, and although it was meant as an “experiment,” I wanted to test and refute this idea, trying to bridge that space between my “inner” thoughts and those of Faust. In other words, there was background thinking and a philosophical theory in place, but I only presented the body of the experiment or "the creative setting and placement" to Faust.
“There has been some cat-and-mouse since then, including his attempting to get a restraining order on me in February.”
This surely sounds like a strange turn of events. What actions on your part led to his request for a restraining order?
“But that starting from scratch, this copernican revolution in my thinking, is at my direction, not his.”
Can you share an example or an “experiment” in analyzing and implementing the paradigm shift of Copernican revolution in a life situation involving your thinking and behavior?
“His mind is sharp and very flexible but his logic was rather strange?”
Did you find it “strange” because you did not comprehend it, or, better yet, how did you reach your conclusion? Did you use an organized system/analysis, or were there any specific steps in this process?
“So yes, your suggestion is possible. At work, he tends to be a solo operator; he turns anything into an opportunity to create something beautiful and useful in a spreadsheet. I often wondered how I might deploy his skillset on an engagement - he articulates all sorts of strange and unlikely possibilities and comes across as risk averse."
True, there is that possibility, and acknowledging it makes sense. I, for one, am not risk averse in some situations, and I have experimented with the concept of multiple possibilities of thought and its connection to quantum mechanics.
“But you are right in saying I don't know him very well. He's very private, and I have not enough data.”
Being quite private, I can understand this point as well.
“His MBTI type is ISFP and he was very much ISFP like, at least with me. I am INTJ. His creativity was all in the seduction, in the creation of theatre and I encouraged it. That was his strength (that, and his "technique" ;) ).”
If this helps with understanding him better, due to my “duality,” my personality is INTJ in addition to yet another part, so to speak, in the labyrinth of the MBTI placement. He most likely showed you some of that other part for an experimental, "well-chosen" reason, but his core sounds more like INTJ to me.
How does the INTJ personality fit your thinking and behavior? Do you truly see yourself as an "architect?"
If only this were a forum. So many interesting lines of thought in your comment.
DeleteAh, your example is wonderful. Presentation of complex ideas in simple, consumable format is a true art of the intellect. Yours was an experiment: what did you make of the datapoint? I would like to read your conversation - I have thought about this problem myself, but haven't read much on the topic.
"This surely sounds like a strange turn of events. What actions on your part led to his request for a restraining order? "
Noting that this is not an appropriate forum to provide full details... I sent him a text saying "I'm lonely. Please give me an adventure." (which I was certain would get a reaction. Good of him to oblige, lol!).
And... "The respondent went to my wife's office twice to drop documents detailing her personal agenda (crossed out with "journal" written in a different hand) on a short affair the respondent and I had." But that was 6 months earlier. And he tried to seduce me after that so the question remains as to whether his wife (ENTJ - his assessment but I've met her twice and found nothing to refute it) even received the package or whether she refrained from telling him. Note that he is still with her.
Obviously, there are numerous other semi-interactions that provide a depth and colour to the backdrop of this theatre. And my argument was his behaviour was reasonably interpreted as inviting conduct and that his application was frivolous (this term has legal meaning in the context) and a continuation of his abuse of me.
That's it at surface level. We have both promised the court not to contact each other except for purposes of work.
Six weeks ago, he passed me my coat, touched my hand, looked deeply at me with his compelling eyes and mimicked my laughter. Two weeks ago, I saw him in the carpark and he said hi, then avoided me (I said "you don't need to hate me"), then magically appeared again in the evening. We made eye contact and as I drove off he waved to me.
"Can you share an example or an “experiment” in analyzing and implementing the paradigm shift of Copernican revolution in a life situation involving your thinking and behavior?"
I left my controlling husband for a start! And have put a good deal of distance between myself and my family to allow space for these changes to take place. I am happy to be patient because I feel quite free and relaxed.
I can't think of one particular example that might excite you because I'm not so much about engineering situations as responding to complexity in way that feels good. I don't plan for the long-term and I think the universe is far more likely - with it's infinite factors - to throw up something interesting each day than I could ever personally construct. So I would say I now have a deep openness that is balanced by knowing what I like and what I don't like. I embrace and seek out what I like and let things I don't like or that haven't worked just slide away.
The thing with the sociopath? Now, there is a depth of emotion there that remains and will remain. Rationally, it's stupid and futile and even dangerous to bother engaging at all. But I know I want to because a) the game is exhilharating b) Mmmm, how shall I phrase it... he's a magician. Now, the crucial difference is that I listen to my feelings in this... I'm doing what I want to do. When I ride the wave of emotion, I take responsibility for it and though it's intense, I claim it as *my* process, enjoy it for what it's worth and don't attribute my experience to him. Yes, he's a catalyst. But it's my process. And I engage by choice. I don't know where it will lead but as soon as I no longer want to engage, I won't. And it's only one element of my exploration of self.
In short, I am reshaping myself to operate in the modes I choose to and creating mental tools that assist me respond (rather than react) to the shifting environment that meets us new everyday. And I'm patient. This all flows from my acceptance of myself, letting go of the need to justify myself to anyone, and coming into realisation of the positions I have espoused in comments on this thread and others.
Delete"Did you find it “strange” because you did not comprehend it, or, better yet, how did you reach your conclusion? Did you use an organized system/analysis, or were there any specific steps in this process?"
Kat wrote in the Trial and Error post:
"Tired of seeing the LOOK? You know the one. The mixture of pity and "OMG that is fucking funny" on their face?"
It was like that. There were times I'd be in a work discussion with him and an *NTJ colleague and the latter and I would sometimes look at each other in just the way Kat describes. Like "where the fuck did that come from, lol?" Not that I didn't appreciate it... I enjoyed the different perspective. So in answer to your question, it was strange because I did not comprehend it.
And it's why I craved the deeper access to his mind that he never granted me.
He was intriguing, is intriguing. I never know what angle he'll come from or what to expect. And I'm sure I have surprised him too.
"I have experimented with the concept of multiple possibilities of thought and its connection to quantum mechanics. "
Oh, I love this idea. Reality as plural and mutable. The idea that we construct our reality based on learned neural shortcuts. What happens when we break them down? We are free to absorb more of the flood that reaches our sensory instruments and make of them what we will.
"If this helps with understanding him better, due to my “duality,” my personality is INTJ in addition to yet another part, so to speak, in the labyrinth of the MBTI placement. He most likely showed you some of that other part for an experimental, "well-chosen" reason, but his core sounds more like INTJ to me. "
I thought about this a lot. It may interest you to hear I originally typed him as INTJ too. They do say there is an ISFP hiding inside any INTJ - the functions are the same but in the opposite order: INTJ is Ni-Te Fi-Se and ISFP is Fi-Se Ni-Te. He played in the space of feelings which very much blindsided me. But he is older (55) and would have had time to develop his inferior functions.
Oh, the language I heard echoing through his "channels" after the court hearing included the word "Mastermind". Lol wut? I thought that was me. Interestingly, the channels closed off once he received a copy of the document I left at the courthouse... We had both left the court with big smiles.
How does the duality play out for you? It sounds as though you have control over the operation or momentary ascendency of your types?
Myself as an INTJ... Yeah, I am a systems builder, a creator of frameworks, a synthesiser of ideas. Not strategic at all in relationships (at least not naturally so) but very good at designing approaches to reach a desired outcome.
How about yourself? Which do you prefer as a description: Architect, Scientist, Mastermind or Systems Builder?
“Ah, your example is wonderful. Presentation of complex ideas in simple, consumable format is a true art of the intellect. Yours was an experiment: what did you make of the datapoint? I would like to read your conversation - I have thought about this problem myself, but haven't read much on the topic.”
DeleteI like presenting my ideas in various forms, building creatively onto a structured, stochastic base. The results of this particular probe were inconclusive, but I have another experiment in mind to obtain a less ambiguous outcome.
“Noting that this is not an appropriate forum to provide full details... I sent him a text saying "I'm lonely. Please give me an adventure."
So far, I do not quite understand his reason for seeking such a drastic measure in the form of a restraining order, but I am sure that more details will follow as I continue to peruse your reply.
“And my argument was his behaviour was reasonably interpreted as inviting conduct and that his application was frivolous...”
As anticipated, I can see how a set of complex components and their ensuing circumstances became increasingly puzzling to you, and it looks as though you had a couple of pickling issues to deal with during this whole quandary.
“I left my controlling husband for a start! And have put a good deal of distance between myself and my family to allow space for these changes to take place. I am happy to be patient because I feel quite free and relaxed.”
Well, happiness in different and intelligent individuals is one of the rarest things I know, and sometimes, the right changes will bring the most appropriate and fitting results in one’s life. Being honest with your own self, and living a life free of pretense, is a worthwhile and fulfilling goal.
“So I would say I now have a deep openness that is balanced by knowing what I like and what I don't like. I embrace and seek out what I like and let things I don't like or that haven't worked just slide away.”
Your new-found philosophy reflects quite a lot about yourself, and staying on this road will clarify things in your life even further. I believe that it is fruitful to pause in our pursuit of happiness as perceived by others, and just be ourselves. It would be quite an accomplishment to be able to live a life devoid of any type of “veneer.”
“In short, I am reshaping myself to operate in the modes I choose to and creating mental tools that assist me respond (rather than react) to the shifting environment that meets us new everyday. And I'm patient. This all flows from my acceptance of myself, letting go of the need to justify myself to anyone, and coming into realisation of the positions I have espoused in comments on this thread and others.”
Again, there is nothing more rare, nor more fulfilling or valuable, than a person being unapologetically himself/herself. To me, that is the true essence of existence.
“How does the duality play out for you? It sounds as though you have control over the operation or momentary ascendency of your types?”
I present each one of my sides, or both, depending on the situation or on the capacity of the individual with whom I am interacting. Although I purposefully select and carefully fit things according to the appropriateness of an event or a situation, it is a natural manifestation at its base or foundation. It is tantamount to constructing a building, the base being its most original infrastructure.
Continuing:
Delete“How about yourself? Which do you prefer as a description: Architect, Scientist, Mastermind or Systems Builder?”
I am an originator or “architect.” It originates as a complex art in my mind, finding the need to simplify it from time to time. However, my natural, most fulfilling state is being and living within this “complex art” that originates and develops within me every day of my life.
“Not strategic at all in relationships (at least not naturally so) but very good at designing approaches to reach a desired outcome.”
How would differentiate between the former and the latter within the construct or example of a life situation?
Inserting omission: How would [you] differentiate between the former and the latter within the construct or example of a life situation?
DeleteWhen it comes to approaching some detailed ideas, people often don't differentiate between the implementation of the message of the idea and the idea itself. In my mind, these are two separate things.
"I like presenting my ideas in various forms, building creatively onto a structured, stochastic base"
DeleteSo you model a landscape then thrill to the unpredictable results of your embedded random processes? Then your datapoints provide a feedback loop for model design. I had wonderful visuals of the wave like trajectories of neural energy that I perceive in myself with certain inputs; compounded with a variety of actors I can only imagine the kaliedoscope effects.
"As anticipated, I can see how a set of complex components and their ensuing circumstances became increasingly puzzling to you, and it looks as though you had a couple of pickling issues to deal with during this whole quandary.
Exactly. But note that I was testing, too, offering him different approaches (including the offer of a companion with whom he could converse naturally). He acted when I offered submission, plus he did state in his application that his wife saw my text. So I suspect he acted to re-establish control over me and / or to placate his wife. Two birds with one stone seems the most feasible. And our interactions in subsequent encounters supports this idea - he wants my submission and will alternately charm then ignore ("punish") me to achieve it. That's the pattern, always has been.
"Being honest with your own self, and living a life free of pretense, is a worthwhile and fulfilling goal. "
It's freedom.
"Your new-found philosophy reflects quite a lot about yourself, and staying on this road will clarify things in your life even further. I believe that it is fruitful to pause in our pursuit of happiness as perceived by others, and just be ourselves. It would be quite an accomplishment to be able to live a life devoid of any type of “veneer.”"
Thankyou, this is helpful. Part of my target state is wanting what I truly need / desire. So this process, this road, to clarification is critical. The rare gift he offered me was a true reflection: yes, he offered it with no mercy, and cracked the mirror over my head for good measure (metaphorically, of course), but there has been nothing so valuable to me.
Do you have methods for existing purely as yourself? Space to do this? And, on a related note, is the other side of your MBTI coin an introvert or extrovert?
"I present each one of my sides, or both, depending on the situation or on the capacity of the individual with whom I am interacting. Although I purposefully select and carefully fit things according to the appropriateness of an event or a situation, it is a natural manifestation at its base or foundation. It is tantamount to constructing a building, the base being its most original infrastructure."
That's fascinating. You describe it in an understandable, positive manner even though I have no parallel to draw. Do you seek out or resolve complexity? I imagine this capacity of yours could be used for either purpose.
"I am an originator or “architect.” It originates as a complex art in my mind, finding the need to simplify it from time to time. However, my natural, most fulfilling state is being and living within this “complex art” that originates and develops within me every day of my life. "
** didn't break that up very well....**
DeleteI read a model that described the INTJ mind focused on a problem as exhibiting a zen-like pattern. I love that description and feel it, and when I read your words I can imagine your brain lighting up in this way too.
"How would [you] differentiate between the former and the latter within the construct or example of a life situation?"
Practically speaking, I have simply not known what I've wanted in relationships until now so there has been nothing to strategise around. I wave worked hard to maintain existing relationships against all odds - hence my ideal candidacy for abuse. This is another reason my current growth in self awareness is almost magical: I know what I like and will walk from things I don't like. I am self-sufficient, so will seek what I want - mostly companionship, the reflection of my mind in another's, explorations of curiosity, the thrill of synergy in developing ideas.
"When it comes to approaching some detailed ideas, people often don't differentiate between the implementation of the message of the idea and the idea itself. In my mind, these are two separate things."
Yes, they are distinct. I like that you specify "implementation of the message" - implying there is a disjunct between the idea and its communication. This is something I'm understanding, that language (or any presentation medium) is a powerful tool in skilled hands.
My own epistemology recognises that models are representations of our own psychological structure. We can share abstract and even social models and validate / refine them against data streams. But personal models - our own understandings of the world - are too bound up in our own egos to be touched in any direct way. So narrative becomes important, sharing packages of experiences in non-threatening ways (or even subterranean-diabolical ways as the case may be ;) ) is a way to influence another's personal model. Brute force doesn't work.
“So you model a landscape then thrill to the unpredictable results of your embedded random processes? Then your datapoints provide a feedback loop for model design.”
DeleteYes, North, you seem to comprehend this modus operandi, drawing onto a detailed parallel. Having said so, the model would be the essential, polished root, or in some cases, the brass tacks, building onto them with the introduction of several, random processes. The ensuing design would then sustain or confute the loop. If the latter is the case, I strategize and re-design until I obtain the desired outcome or data point(s).
“I had wonderful visuals of the wave like trajectories of neural energy that I perceive in myself with certain inputs; compounded with a variety of actors I can only imagine the kaliedoscope effects.”
I believe that, in some ways, we are all blurry-eyed wanderers through time, and the point of it all is that we’d most likely advance to accomplish great things if only we sought and discovered a path toward correcting and focusing our vision without relying on our past. In this mode, we discover life’s grand kaleidoscope, helping us to conceive or create our way forward. Since you’ve mentioned this cardinal point in these mental constructs that I design, my thoughts or actions would manifest as “visuals of the wave-like trajectories of neural energy,” producing a number of specific inputs.
Can you, perhaps, expand on the types of visuals that you experience? Are these natural occurrences a part of your “make-up,” as in a mode of thinking and presenting your spontaneous ideas or contemplated thoughts to a person in a given conversation?
“Exactly. But note that I was testing, too, offering him different approaches (including the offer of a companion with whom he could converse naturally). He acted when I offered submission, plus he did state in his application that his wife saw my text. So I suspect he acted to re-establish control over me and / or to placate his wife. Two birds with one stone seems the most feasible. And our interactions in subsequent encounters supports this idea - he wants my submission and will alternately charm then ignore ("punish") me to achieve it. That's the pattern, always has been.”
I see how the pickling issues in this whole imbroglio seem like a pattern to you. I understand that you have offered him different approaches, but what exactly was it that you tested?
“It's freedom.”
From the outer edge of life, and if we do choose to look back in some life instances, there is only one desire or “remorse,” so to speak: the wish to go on living in our most natural state.
Is freedom a need that you experience in your inner, not outer, pursuits? How do you cope with or, in the alternative, wrestle with its opposite?
“Part of my target state is wanting what I truly need / desire. So this process, this road, to clarification is critical. The rare gift he offered me was a true reflection: yes, he offered it with no mercy, and cracked the mirror over my head for good measure (metaphorically, of course), but there has been nothing so valuable to me.”
I believe that finding a true reflection, as you have done in this person that you describe, is the most desirable and sought-after attainment in life. When this reflection is uncovered, or when it surfaces and becomes quite visible, we feel as though we have picked up and turned about like a kaleidoscope, that who we are in our most natural state has been shaken up, assembled, identified and accepted in a different, but altogether right, order. I know this process to be true.
Since you are placing this process or path to clarification in a critical light, were you able to internalize the gift that he has offered through this reflection?
Continuing:
Delete“Do you have methods for existing purely as yourself? Space to do this?”
So far, my method for existing purely as myself has been within my own internal “world,” so to speak. Thinking further, the wish for more space to do so, or to exist in this natural way, is veritably there.
“And, on a related note, is the other side of your MBTI coin an introvert or extrovert?”
Although I did not have to experiment with this particular quest, the other part of my MBTI is introverted.
“Do you seek out or resolve complexity? I imagine this capacity of yours could be used for either purpose.”
It is a natural pull, if you will, being drawn toward seeking and resolving/elucidating complexity. My internal self dwells within this complex state, creating or encountering the need to simplify depending on whom I am speaking to, or depending on a more long-term life situation that necessitates this development. At the same time, it fascinates me, especially when I find a parallel, or someone or something, that I can relate to in this state. I place value on such parallels, since they are rare in my life.
“I read a model that described the INTJ mind focused on a problem as exhibiting a zen-like pattern. I love that description and feel it, and when I read your words I can imagine your brain lighting up in this way too.”
Yes, I experience this pattern quite often, having that “eureka,” marvel or revelation lighting up, elating and vitalizing my brain. I seek and feel it most naturally, and it is exceptional that you have brought this up.
If you were to extract more detail from this distinct existence or pattern, how long does it last when it lights up?
“This is another reason my current growth in self awareness is almost magical:”
Your thoughts are comparable to something that I have always believed in, stemming from a “metaphor.” This magical self-awareness is that moment you discover whether you can “fly,” and once you know so, it will always be a part of you.
“I know what I like and will walk from things I don't like. I am self-sufficient, so will seek what I want - mostly companionship, the reflection of my mind in another's, explorations of curiosity, the thrill of synergy in developing ideas.”
Sure, and just when we think that we’re too different to relate to others, something unexpected happens, presenting itself in the inexplicable connectedness that we experience through companionship, parallel places, captivating works of art, the peculiar appropriateness of moments of synchronicity, the familiar voice, the hidden presence, when we think we're alone.”
My own epistemology recognises that models are representations of our own psychological structure. We can share abstract and even social models and validate / refine them against data streams. But personal models - our own understandings of the world - are too bound up in our own egos to be touched in any direct way. So narrative becomes important, sharing packages of experiences in non-threatening ways (or even subterranean-diabolical ways as the case may be ;) ) is a way to influence another's personal model. Brute force doesn't work.”
Concerning all models of initiative, knowledge and creation, there is one principal truth: the moment one definitely applies/implements oneself or a plan of action, then everything else moves too. A whole stream of events emerge from the resolve, raising in one's favor all types of unexpected or surprising incidents and findings, which no one could have dreamed would have come his/her way. Whatever you can do, or imagine you can do, build and sustain it. Boldness has insight, dynamism, genius and magic in it.
“I like that you specify "implementation of the message" - implying there is a disjunct between the idea and its communication. This is something I'm understanding, that language (or any presentation medium) is a powerful tool in skilled hands.”
Can you offer an example of this powerful tool?
"Having said so, the model would be the essential, polished root, or in some cases, the brass tacks, building onto them with the introduction of several, random processes. The ensuing design would then sustain or confute the loop. If the latter is the case, I strategize and re-design until I obtain the desired outcome or data point(s)."
DeleteThe best lessons are learnt from experience. You have designed the means for a sturdy foundation from which to adventure or progress.
"I believe that, in some ways, we are all blurry-eyed wanderers through time, and the point of it all is that we’d most likely advance to accomplish great things if only we sought and discovered a path toward correcting and focusing our vision without relying on our past. In this mode, we discover life’s grand kaleidoscope, helping us to conceive or create our way forward."
Have you ever encountered Falcon Press? There aren't many for whom their titles resonate, but I feel you might enjoy them. Undoing Yourself with Energized Meditation provides a series of exercises that - using a Kierkegaardian approach of "tricking" you into learning by experience - teach you to find for yourself such liberating paths.
"Can you, perhaps, expand on the types of visuals that you experience? Are these natural occurrences a part of your “make-up,” as in a mode of thinking and presenting your spontaneous ideas or contemplated thoughts to a person in a given conversation? "
The mode has changed post-sociopath (I call him the FNP). Previously, it was a rare but valuable event in which my highly intuitive thoughts would take on a kind of form and texture in my mind, melding and evolving with those of a particular friend. These days, I perceive visualisations of my own processes, especially in a meditative mode and even spontaneously when accounting for the effect of various inputs. For instance, this morning, I can sometimes see sparking neural firing pattens - like Matrix code, only yellow and not in characters. This morning, while reading your post, I felt colours vibrating, then fell into a momentary trance like state as I invited myself to journey through my own intuitions without grasping hold (by verbalising) of any thought.
It's come with greater understanding and control over my cognitions. It's correlated with self awareness.
"I see how the pickling issues in this whole imbroglio seem like a pattern to you. I understand that you have offered him different approaches, but what exactly was it that you tested? "
In November, I gave myself "permission" to pursue how I really felt about him. Which was basically Eros coupled with the deepest curiosity I've ever experienced. I initially gave myself two months to reach him. But he wasn't playing... and I don't really blame him. Except that he was playing. So how to reach him? I experimented to find a lever that would work. I was advised that he likely wouldn't have a type of relationship where he wasn't calling the shots. Given the last thing he said to me was "You didn't tell me" re the letter to his wife... I eventually brought myself to try passivity, pleading. And politeness. He expects politeness. I knew it would eventually work and would be on his terms... it was only a matter of patience after that. Of course, the result wasn't quite what I hoped for but it was a great adventure and it did provide data points.
This is exactly how it felt: https://vimeo.com/18301300
To be honest, I am disappointed he hasn't adjusted his tactics post the little legal concern. But I suppose he is operating to a formula he knows is successful. And since the emotions are still there for me... it might work for him. But it's a game and he knows I know that. It can't ever have the same flavour. Why doesn't he adapt, embrace the variation?
Continuing...
Delete"there is only one desire or “remorse,” so to speak: the wish to go on living in our most natural state. "
I agree. But I think so much of society rejects their self in the false idea that their survival depends on pure conformance to the expectations of society. Rather, we hold our end of a social contract in order to receive and contribute to the benefits of society: society can be a context rather than a binding constraint.
"Is freedom a need that you experience in your inner, not outer, pursuits? How do you cope with or, in the alternative, wrestle with its opposite? "
This manifests purely as listening to my own feelings, under the premise they are evolution's gift to guide my social interactions (fight, flight, freeze to one side for the moment). I recognise this may be a phase and I will always ask for more of myself (per Shams of Tabriz). To me, this is freedom and it flows naturally that as I grow into myself, I act in accordance with my nature. So I ask and seek and knock, so to speak. I don't always get what I want - but there's joy in that too, different possibilities I had not even accounted for. I am sure you understand what I mean.
"When this reflection is uncovered, or when it surfaces and becomes quite visible, we feel as though we have picked up and turned about like a kaleidoscope, that who we are in our most natural state has been shaken up, assembled, identified and accepted in a different, but altogether right, order. I know this process to be true. "
Altogether right order? May I ask what you mean? DO you have a particular measure or is it your optimism that creates the "rightness" of the order? Could you share an example?
TBC shortly... I'm enjoying this immensely.
“Have you ever encountered Falcon Press? There aren't many for whom their titles resonate, but I feel you might enjoy them. Undoing Yourself with Energized Meditation provides a series of exercises that - using a Kierkegaardian approach of "tricking" you into learning by experience - teach you to find for yourself such liberating paths.”
DeleteYes, coincidentally, I’ve read about Falcon Press during my past research for publishing houses. After familiarizing myself with “Undoing Yourself,” I stumbled upon:
http://reichiantherapy.info
And there is more to this discovery, shedding more light on the inner workings of these brilliant methods. Having said that, Christopher Hyatt and Jack Willis were trained in "Reichian" techniques by Francis Regardie. Hyatt, who had been Regardie's patient for quite some time, absorbed the techniques from Regardie and made them an integral part of his own psychotherapy practice. Afterward, and due their similarities, Hyatt and Jack tried innovating and creating together. As time progressed, the two created fascinating works together in this distinct alliance, and Hyatt offered Jack co-author credit on some titles.
“These days, I perceive visualisations of my own processes, especially in a meditative mode and even spontaneously when accounting for the effect of various inputs. For instance, this morning, I can sometimes see sparking neural firing pattens - like Matrix code, only yellow and not in characters. This morning, while reading your post, I felt colours vibrating, then fell into a momentary trance like state as I invited myself to journey through my own intuitions without grasping hold (by verbalising) of any thought.”
Vibrations have always interested me, especially when coupled with images that stem from processes that you have described. In this trek, it is essential to encourage these manifestations, guiding your intuition to uncover that which is hidden from mere sight. The individual who never quits when circumstances are beginning to inhabit a developmental stage will become considerably stronger until all things will delight to be there. Throughout this occurrence, you will finally have all the input that is needed or intrinsically desired. Visualize all of these varied points in your mind, and, in this connection, recall the reflection or likeness of that which you ponder the most in your life. In doing so, I believe that you will gradually and definitely move towards or closer to that lofty “ideal.”
“It's come with greater understanding and control over my cognitions. It's correlated with self awareness.”
This is a process that I truly recognize as well, self-awareness and being myself forming the most appealing factor.
“Of course, the result wasn't quite what I hoped for but it was a great adventure and it did provide data points.”
What did you truly hope for, and was this a part of your symptomatic visualizations?
“This is exactly how it felt: https://vimeo.com/18301300”
While attempting to comprehend, I equate this original development to the exceptional feeling of flying. Knowing so is akin to forever experiencing the earth with your thoughts and vision turned toward the sky, since there you have been, and there you will always yearn to return.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER1PGYe9UZA
“To be honest, I am disappointed he hasn't adjusted his tactics post the little legal concern…Why doesn't he adapt, embrace the variation?”
Although your thoughts have entered a state of disambiguation, which I can distinguish from your prior reply, how would you picture the adjustment of his tactics, or how would you adapt and embrace the variation. Is there a path that you can delineate in your mind?
Continuing:
Delete“I agree. But I think so much of society rejects their self in the false idea that their survival depends on pure conformance to the expectations of society. Rather, we hold our end of a social contract in order to receive and contribute to the benefits of society: society can be a context rather than a binding constraint.”
Since your thoughts have reminded me of Thoreau’s “Civil Disobedience,” I am wondering whether you are familiar with its complexity or multiple meanings. Most people absorb the surface of his writing on some level, but I see so much more beneath the surface of this man’s scintillating mind. Conformance is something that my personality repels quite acutely, and connecting to this work has been entirely revealing to me.
“This manifests purely as listening to my own feelings, under the premise they are evolution's gift to guide my social interactions (fight, flight, freeze to one side for the moment). I recognise this may be a phase and I will always ask for more of myself (per Shams of Tabriz). To me, this is freedom and it flows naturally that as I grow into myself, I act in accordance with my nature. So I ask and seek and knock, so to speak. I don't always get what I want - but there's joy in that too, different possibilities I had not even accounted for. I am sure you understand what I mean.”
I can naturally understand your point, and mentioning Shams of Tabriz is a curious development in your stream of thoughts. He is viewed as the spiritual instructor of Rumi, “The Works of Shams of Tabriz” conveying the significance of this voyage. It is known that Shams taught Rumi in seclusion, which worked effectively (i.e., being an introvert, I can comprehend this technique, comprising of visual, some auditory and plenty of kinesthetic elements), delineating yet another, different possibility mentioned in his greatest work. The tomb of Shams of Tabriz was recently nominated to be a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
Do you agree with Shams of Tabriz’s method, keeping in mind his concepts and technique connected to such possibilities? I equate it to the inner world of quantum mechanics.
“Altogether right order? May I ask what you mean? DO you have a particular measure or is it your optimism that creates the "rightness" of the order? Could you share an example?”
I am referring to the natural order of things, as in relating rightly to another, to your surroundings, or with being your own self (shedding all “veneer”). Within this context, it means being synchronized with the sheer surging of life, the immeasurable tidal wave of existing, the indescribable joy of each separate neural passage, nerve end and sinew, in that it is and becomes everything that one desires. It lights aglow and rampant, expressing its existence in movement, flying exultantly toward the freedom-seeking sky.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKimGYJeJ6Y
“This morning, while reading your post, I felt colours vibrating, then fell into a momentary trance like state as I invited myself to journey through my own intuitions without grasping hold (by verbalising) of any thought.”
I strongly believe that the closer one advances toward a significant experience, the deeper it roots itself on the inside. In this context, history and the present are progressive. The future is seen within that same channel. What else have you gathered throughout this journey? Have you assembled any enlightening datapoint(s)?
Hey Once,
DeleteSorry for the delayed response. This was a most fascinating and useful conversation.
"I strongly believe that the closer one advances toward a significant experience, the deeper it roots itself on the inside. In this context, history and the present are progressive. The future is seen within that same channel. What else have you gathered throughout this journey? Have you assembled any enlightening datapoint(s)? "
Perfectly put and this is exactly what has been happening for me over the past week.
"Allow no opportunity to train your brain to pass you by." - Christopher S Hyatt
http://bit.ly/1TrITCU
I'm pretty sure I have read it else where as "never miss a chance to change your brain."
While some of your questions were very pertinent, the emergent result of the entire conversation provided an opportunity for such change. I think the wingsuit video, placed in this context, added a special dimension of freedom. I wondered about the place one's mind would be in, where such a pursuit really did flow from freedom rather than flight from pain.
"the immeasurable tidal wave of existing, the indescribable joy of each separate neural passage, nerve end and sinew, in that it is and becomes everything that one desires. It lights aglow and rampant, expressing its existence in movement, flying exultantly toward the freedom-seeking sky."
Beautiful. In simple terms, it is wanting what one truly desires, a skill many never master.
Please share how you experience this in your life.
But returning to your datapoints question: part of the emergence was a reshaping, a reinvestigation. Where my mind had travelled in vertical channels, the FNP deepened them to the highest pitch and the lowest note. I cannot conquer him in that channel. Or, per Einstein's famous quote: a problem cannot be solved from the same consciousness that created it.
No. I have felt my mind broadening into horizontal planes now. It is not merely restricted to the dopamine highs and lows of rigid vertical channels, but is free in 3-dimensional trajectories. My desired vast and rich life is opening up for me. Not so intense, perhaps, but free, with clarity, and not in any way precluding intensity :)
That sounds so little, but in reality it is a breakthrough. Very pleasant.
"Although your thoughts have entered a state of disambiguation, which I can distinguish from your prior reply, how would you picture the adjustment of his tactics, or how would you adapt and embrace the variation. Is there a path that you can delineate in your mind? "
Very useful question. I had begun to think of what rules I might like to create for interactions with him (note, the first thing he did with me was set up rules and a "framework" which he pretty much kept... kinda, lol). So how would I make it work? I don't like rules, personally. But I thought of one:
"Ask directly for what you want."
I can't imagine he'd play that game because I think it's manipulation he delights in most purely. But you never know. As an INTJ, all I can see is that manipulation is super inefficient. But if he likes it that much... well, that's up to him. I reckon we could have heaps of fun by simply being direct. Until he inevitably gets bored *shrugs shoulders*.
I started reading Civil Disobedience - I like Thoreau's direct style.
There is more I wish to savour in your replies.
“Please share how you experience this in your life.”
DeleteNorth, I believe the following particularizes it rather well:
“He was always seeking for a meaning in life, and here it seemed to him that a meaning was offered; but it was obscure and vague...He saw what looked like the truth as by flashes of lightening on a dark, stormy night you might see a mountain range. He seemed to see that a man need not leave his life to chance, but that his will was powerful; he seemed to see that self-control might be as passionate and as active as the surrender to passion; he seemed to see that the inward life might be as manifold, as varied, as rich with experience, as the life of one who conquered realms and explored unknown lands.” W.S. Maugham
And the following is the humorous, more vivid version of it:
“A man breaking his journey between one place and another at a third place of no name, character, population or significance, sees a unicorn cross his path and disappear. That in itself is startling, but there are precedents for mystical encounters of various kinds, or to be less extreme, a choice of persuasions to put it down to fancy; until "My God," says a second man, "I must be dreaming, I thought I saw a unicorn." At which point, a dimension is added that makes the experience as alarming as it will ever be. A third witness, you understand, adds no further dimension but only spreads it thinner, and a fourth thinner still, and the more witnesses there are the thinner it gets and the more reasonable it becomes until it is as thin as reality, the name we give to the common experience..."Look, look!" recites the crowd. "A horse with an arrow in its forehead! It must have been mistaken for a deer.” T. Stoppard
“That sounds so little, but in reality it is a breakthrough. Very pleasant.”
Breakthroughs bring a sense of fulfillment or contentment within me, and I am glad to hear about your experience. I find it appealing to expand my experiences regularly so every stretch feels like a real achievement. Also, the lastingness of any perceived or realized success depends on craftily managing your breakthroughs. It takes luminosity to breakthrough to higher places, while it takes agility to breakthrough to darker regions or “corners.”
“Very useful question. I had begun to think of what rules I might like to create for interactions with him (note, the first thing he did with me was set up rules and a "framework" which he pretty much kept... kinda, lol).”
I believe that keeping a “framework” and evolving it should be a mutual, lasting journey. Could it be that it merely seemed to you that he “pretty much kept... kinda,” as you’ve phrased it, because the “framework” needed certain, essential elements from your side as well? I imagine that he might have created a “framework” focusing on a decided course. Having said that, I am mentioning this idea in order to raise some questions, or to add some answers, in your mind, along with emphasizing the fact that being on the same course or path (i.e., as “deviant” as its construction has been on this route) is the only way that furthers and enhances the “framework.”
“I can't imagine he'd play that game because I think it's manipulation he delights in most purely. But you never know. As an INTJ, all I can see is that manipulation is super inefficient. But if he likes it that much... well, that's up to him. I reckon we could have heaps of fun by simply being direct. Until he inevitably gets bored *shrugs shoulders*.”
I, for one, am highly drawn to symbolism and communicating in both direct (as you mention) and innovative, witty or groundbreaking modes. However, having an INTJ personality as part of my “duality,” I find that some individuals view this as some form of “manipulation,” when, in fact, it is a more developed, creative and intellectual mode of communicating and conveying ideas on a certain spectrum: ranging from complex to those that are simple, or easily derived from a given symbolic postulate or situation.
Continuing:
Delete“I started reading Civil Disobedience - I like Thoreau's direct style.”
When reading “Civil Disobedience,” it is decisive to absorb only those ideas that make sense, or, given its time and setting, only those concepts that can be comprehended on a symbolic level. I do not take any of it literally, and I view it as expanding my knowledge in ways that illuminate some blurry inklings.
“No. I have felt my mind broadening into horizontal planes now. It is not merely restricted to the dopamine highs and lows of rigid vertical channels, but is free in 3-dimensional trajectories. My desired vast and rich life is opening up for me. Not so intense, perhaps, but free, with clarity, and not in any way precluding intensity :)
That sounds so little, but in reality it is a breakthrough. Very pleasant.”
It does not sound little or minimal to me at all. However, how would you apply and implement this breakthrough in your life? In other words, what would you do in terms of actions to implement its practice?
Once,
DeleteThrough a glass, darkly! Indeed, and to discover the joy that we have the very tools to sharpen and colour our focus, to explore. Such delicious mistakes we make as a human race when we take ourselves too seriously.
http://www.newphilosopher.com/articl...think-you-are/
“But why would evolution produce a system with such a persistent error? It’s because evolution is famous for caring a whole lot less about truth than it does about survival and reproduction. If believing the sky is purple and every rustle in the bushes is a cranky yeti leads to having more babies, then so be it, says evolution.”
“he seemed to see that the inward life might be as manifold, as varied, as rich with experience, as the life of one who conquered realms and explored unknown lands.”
This, indeed. I am still intrigued by your internal richness, Once. Please elaborate as you choose!
I was turning your inputs over in my mind. Like sucking on a lozenge, I enjoyed the layerings of flavour and texture as your concepts filtered slowly down from my neocortex and through my limbic brain. Combined with my own thoughts and experiences, I began a synthetic process, imagining what creative modes of communication might emerge in the dynamic I find myself in.
And then I received an invitation to his farewell from our company. Yes, he is finishing on Tuesday. Excellent. Do I go, and play another card? If I don’t go, that is simply a different card. Or do I change the game by confusing him? I considered several options.
But I realised what you will already have discerned: I was still hoping for his acceptance. Hoping for this type of conversation, Once. A meaningful – or at least useful - connection.
Alas, I have too many datapoints against his capability / desire in this regard. He insists on the building expectations – dashing hopes – winning his prize cycle that I have been deliberately playing to since November. There is no evidence he recognises this at all. It’s very disappointing. And indicative that it’s time to let go of my desire for any sort of connection with this gentleman.
I imagine he will emerge occasionally as it suits him. Perhaps next time I will be free to engage in the detached way that allows those creative and strategic modes you describe to fully flourish. This would be pleasurable – it’s pleasurable now to the extent I achieve it (the court situation as the best example, where my Ni-Te was utilised beautifully in defence of my ‘survival’).
The strange note, also pertaining to the Maugham and Stoppard quotes, is that when each party is an optimist, neither can lose. Each simply sees a contextually-constrained victory, rejoices, and continues with broad smiles. This reminds me of M.E.s “rose-coloured glasses” and lack of regard for consequence. Contrast with the common error:
https://youtu.be/9PbBCmGwEOE?t=42m40s
(“If he kills himself, I lose”)
“It does not sound little or minimal to me at all. However, how would you apply and implement this breakthrough in your life? In other words, what would you do in terms of actions to implement its practice?”
This is simply choosing of the target of attention. It is choosing low amplitude vastness and the surveying of possibilities where high-energy focus is unproductive. It is dissipating the identity through the cosmos rather than sharpening it to a fine point and vice versa as suits.
That link again...
Deletehttp://www.newphilosopher.com/articles/you-are-not-who-you-think-you-are/
North,
Delete"http://www.newphilosopher.com/articl...think-you-are/"
For measurable and unmeasurable periods of time, everything that you are comes from within. “There isn't music without rhythm; have a soul that won't leave your lips without a song.” (E.V.) When this occurs, we sow uniqueness and reap truth.
“I was turning your inputs over in my mind. Like sucking on a lozenge, I enjoyed the layerings of flavour and texture as your concepts filtered slowly down from my neocortex and through my limbic brain. Combined with my own thoughts and experiences, I began a synthetic process, imagining what creative modes of communication might emerge in the dynamic I find myself in.”
Your thoughts reminded me of these words that carry so much tenor:
“Always tell yourself that you are as good as anyone that breathes; that you have two hands and a brain, and a little time in which to use them. But they are enough, and no one has any more. And if you train and force them to serve you well, you can reach any height to which you aspire. But to waste any of them is to betray yourself.” R.S.
“But I realised what you will already have discerned: I was still hoping for his acceptance. Hoping for this type of conversation, Once. A meaningful – or at least useful - connection.”
North, just as the wave cannot exist for itself, but is a part of the ever rising surface of the sea, so must one know and continue this “meaningful connection.”
“https://youtu.be/9PbBCmGwEOE?t=42m40s
(“If he kills himself, I lose”)”
I think there is a momentous song or a felicitous video clip to describe the above, but the following works just as well:
“While my hand is on the stick, my feet on the rudder, and my eyes on the compass, this consciousness, like a winged messenger, goes out to visit the waves below, testing the warmth of water, the speed of wind, the thickness of intervening clouds. It goes ‘north’ over the horizon to the edge of dawn, away through space to the moon and stars, always returning….” C.L.
"And the reason we’re all so bad at games like this is the tendency toward confirmation bias: It feels much better to find evidence that confirms what you believe to be true than to find evidence that falsifies what you believe to be true. Why go out in search of disappointment?"
ReplyDeleteI find that it is essential to accept some things that fall within this "light," and to seek only those situations that truly fit one's personal construct, desires, goals and aspirations. To be "wholly" seen by someone (i.e., all of us have that particular "someone" or, if fortunate, "the one" in our lives at one point or another through the years) is a development or an offering that can border on "miraculous," so to speak.