A reader wonders:
A couple of weeks ago I ran into someone I went to high school with and had not seen since we graduated. Remembering back to when we were in school, he showed a lot of the traits of being a sociopath. He hasn’t changed much since then. When I saw him recently though, I realized that he’s not a sociopath. He’s just stupid. I don’t mean that as an insult towards him. His IQ is probably in the low 80’s. This made me wonder.
Is there a minimum intelligence needed for sociopathy to matter? Maybe he is a sociopath, but his stupidity can explain his actions. I can’t tell the difference.
I’m still going through all of your posts so apologies if you’ve already covered this.
A couple of weeks ago I ran into someone I went to high school with and had not seen since we graduated. Remembering back to when we were in school, he showed a lot of the traits of being a sociopath. He hasn’t changed much since then. When I saw him recently though, I realized that he’s not a sociopath. He’s just stupid. I don’t mean that as an insult towards him. His IQ is probably in the low 80’s. This made me wonder.
Is there a minimum intelligence needed for sociopathy to matter? Maybe he is a sociopath, but his stupidity can explain his actions. I can’t tell the difference.
I’m still going through all of your posts so apologies if you’ve already covered this.
Sociopaths are pretty stupid. I am one and i work in a warehouse because.
ReplyDeletewe arent all stupid, I'm in market strategy, I think just like any "normal" person, a condition (no matter how super duper awesome) has no restrictions based on IQ
DeleteSeems it may just be you
DeleteIt's all possible. But you can make a distinction between IQ and level of psychpathy. You can be smart as hell (gary gillmore 160iq) and stil do only stupid stuff. Or be stupid and play a smart con. But off course if you are too stupid you just end up in jail. you lash out ones or twice and get locked up for life.
DeleteThe sociopath isn't smart. He's cunning. He does everything the hard way.
ReplyDeleteHe never learns. That's why he continuely gets into trouble.
Doing harmful things reberverates back to himself. That's why he's stupid.
He doesn't "learn" through punishment and mindless conformity. That's how "normal" people learn. We learn through understanding and we never stop learning. We don't believe in coincidence and luck because we understand the underlying mechanisms of life which we operate in our own best interest. I don't think that the person you've dealt with was one. There's a lot more "normal" ignorant impulsive people out there and they are the ones that mostly get labeled by mistake. We are a minority. If you'd deal with a real *path you'd never consider him to be one.
DeleteMy IQ is in the upper 150's. I am a sociopath. Not all are stupid. Bundy had a very high IQ as well.
DeleteSome of us have learned to control our impulsivity very well. We're able to create mental triggers that stop us from reacting on our impulsions. This enables us to feel what we want to feel and bypass or detach from things that we don't. It just takes some time to form these habits. The best form of manipulation we can do is self-manipulation. It's the key to power and without it all other forms of manipulation are driven useless. It's the special ingredient that makes others deceive itself.
DeleteI think the bell shape also apply to us, you can be a *path and be insanely dumb, in that case you will end up killing someone for some stupid reason on the street. You can be moderately stupid but coning lots of people and be a rich drug dealer. You can be average and have a normal work, bulling your friends and have some nomadic lifestyle. Or you can be really smart and go up in the society hierarchy.
ReplyDeleteBut the cool point about this is what Hare says about *paths: "instead of being consistent on being inconsistent, *paths are inconsistent on being inconsistent". Because the hallmark of this disease is inconsistency, to the point that sometimes much of us act cooperatively to archive some goal, but for no reason at all we do something that looks stupid for someone outside. But in fact in our situation it always seems completely rational.
So dumbness does not define *paths, BUT inconsistent motivation and acting, to the point of others simply being unable to figure out 'what is going on inside our heads and hearts' is what defines it.
Yawn! Why are there prison psychos and billionaire psychos? a) because they are all the same b) because there are lots of variations (correct answer: b)
ReplyDeleteWould you like to elaborate why you think that he is stupid? You haven't written any clues about why you think so. What did he do or say that made you come to this conclusion?
ReplyDeleteI'm the one that emailed M.E.
DeleteI know he's stupid because I went to school with him for 9 years. He has problems doing basic arithmetic with 2 digit numbers. You post has 3 sentences in it. It would take him over a minute to read them. He was always in the lowest class in every subject. When we were in high school there was a rumor that they were going to send him to the school for "slow" kids. His attempts to trick or manipulate would be ham-fisted for a 7 year old.
First of all, I dislike labels but the whole concept of sociopathy is based on the idea that a person becomes one through bad nurture. Sociopaths become sociopaths by establishing effective coping mechanisms to gain influence which this guy definitely doesn't have. These mechanisms are grounded in logic and a person simply cannot be one without being fully conscious about their effects. A person needs an abundance of information to be consciously logical. Every action is about winning and I don't see any worthy gains in this person's actions. He's unconsciously undermining himself. He either wants to be dumb (I'm using this word to make myself clear. I don't believe in this concept) because someone influential to him made him afraid about competing in these things at a young age, so being dumb is his unconscious coping mechanism or he's got a physical defect on his brain. In short, a sociopath is a consciously influential person which this guy simply isn't.
DeleteMost of the time a sociopath is only a sociopath in a "good" person's mind. It's only a word. Do you find yourself to be a good person? I for an instance don't believe in good and bad. It's your own coping mechanism. You found his weaknesses to mask your own incompetence. You wrote this question because he did something that made you very angry. He had power over you so you labeled him as a sociopath to preserve your own ego. You also wanted to boost your ego by questioning our intelligence expecting to get a answer which would prove your doubts - make him and some of us stupid in your mind and reinforce your coping. By the way, I don't want to be mean with this answer. I'm only explaining why you wrote this. You may not be consciously aware of it. If you were you might not write it but then maybe you're testing us. Either way you show more of the traits than he does. Welcome to the club :)
Delete"First of all, I dislike labels but the whole concept of sociopathy is based on the idea that a person becomes one through bad nurture. Sociopaths become sociopaths by establishing effective coping mechanisms to gain influence which this guy definitely doesn't have."
Delete^I'd like to expand on that comment.
Sociopathy emerges as a complex defense mechanism in response to environmental triggers (abuse and/or trauma) in a person genetically predisposed to the disorder. A parent who is psychopathic is more likely to pass on those genes, and create a dysfunctional environment, which engenders epigenetic changes that serve as a catalyst to the development of sociopathy, thereby triggering a vicious cycle. This was certainly the case for me.
"He had power over you so you labeled him as a sociopath to preserve your own ego. You also wanted to boost your ego by questioning our intelligence expecting to get a answer which would prove your doubts - make him and some of us stupid in your mind and reinforce your coping. By the way, I don't want to be mean with this answer. I'm only explaining why you wrote this. You may not be consciously aware of it. "
Delete^Nice try, but you're dead wrong.
Maybe I am. Could you tell me why? I'm really interested in your answer. As much as I like being right, I don't mind knowing when I'm wrong. I change my beliefs all the time as soon as I find holes in them.
DeleteI don't think sociopaths are stupid by any means. As somebody who either has strong sociopathic tendencies or is a full fledged sociopath, my IQ is above average and I have a solid technical background although I haven't went to university because I dislike rules and excessive structure, yet I'm on the verge of making more money as a black hat internet marketer than most people who work 9-5s.
ReplyDeleteAre sociopaths geniuses? Hardly. Are we at least above average intelligence? Most of us are.
Besides, money matters more in today's society than intelligence. I would rather have wealth and control than be a super genius and be under the control of a sociopath.
There is a sociopath in my life conning a family member. He is smart but I see right through him and his lies. . I am smarter, with an IQ of 139. I used to think my family member was a smart guy too, but after this realize that I really overestimated him.
ReplyDeleteMy IQ is 999 and my penis size is 58,32cm
DeleteI believe a sociopath needs to be smart, or at least smarter than the crowd he is hanging around with. As far as I am concerned, it is part of the very definition of a sociopath. A dumb person would not be able to pull some of the characteristics that we associate with sociopathy.
ReplyDeleteFor instance being able to reinvent himself to fit into a situation. It requires observation, a great deal of mental agility, and excellent memory.
Being able to charm people. This also is difficult. If the person is not smart, there is no way they can be charming to a wide range of personalities.
It is hard work to be a sociopath.
Perhaps dumb sociopaths exists, ie they have the same brain or neuron deficit as sociopaths but we probably would have a different label for them.
Liar? Bully? Unpleasant? Stupid? Missing a screw? A bad actor? Not worth the effort?
... if they are dumb enough that we can easily see through their mask, then they cannot entice us, wreck our lives, spin believable tales, or entertain us. Hence they would not fit the definition of a sociopath.
IQs are bullshit to begin with. If you were highly intelligent wouldn't you want people to think you're dumb, so you could take advantage of them? They think you're a dipshit and always take you at face value. If they know you are intelligent they may suspect something. Always better to act dumb and keep the cards close to your chest. But, yes, I agree. Dumb fucks and sociopathy can look like the same thing. It all depends how one integrates it. Stupid people are just BEING stupid. Sociopaths are ACTING stupid.
ReplyDeleteYeah ive done that before, outsmarted somebody from making them beleive i was an idiot
DeleteBeing a sociopath has nothing to do with the iq of the person, however many sociopaths have higher iq than an average person, there is no proof that there lies any correlation between sociopathy and iq level. perhaps your colleague is one of those people who display symptoms of sociopathy however is not a legitimate sociopath.
ReplyDeleteAnd what is clever? Formally: the ability to be able to state which of several symbols ends a line of symbols, based on the previous "pattern". And if the smelly geek from the chess-club scores high there, he´s the "perfect psycho" if he´s not bothered by conscience..?
ReplyDeleteA cat scores zero on the "pattern-test", yet if its personlity gets tranformed into a human most folks would agree that it would result in a "classic case" of psychopathy..
ReplyDeleteIf a dentist shoots a lion,who is the smart *path and who is the dumb *path? If a lion stalks and eats a dentist, is that a "fair" relationship?
ReplyDeleteIf a wasp kills a tarantula and lays her eggs inside the spider so its babies can eat their way out as their baby food, is that an inspiring relationship of motherly love?
I have found that people with sociopathic tendencies are often very clever, but I am reluctant to say that this is always so.
ReplyDeleteTo explore this question, I can only draw upon my own experiences- but I am relatively intelligent. I cannot comment from the perspective of a person who is cognitively deficient.
Sociopaths are charming and manipulative. Stupid people can try to be charming, but they are not as likely to be successful or influential. Stupid people can attempt to be manipulative, but it takes a certain perspicacity to deliberately pinpoint someone's weaknesses and strengths in order to steer them. I can cut people down and strip their egos as effectively as I can build them up. My superiority in this regard makes me a very effective leader. But I have a cruel streak that occasionally causes me to do and say unconscionable things.
Sociopaths are social chameleons. I can fit in just as easily with a gang of crass, shit-talking tough guys as with a group of pompous, pretentious academics. I can speak their "language", mimic their mannerisms, and find points of commonality so as to relate to elements in their respective worlds. Would a stupid person be able to do that? Probably not.
Sociopaths are glib. We have a way with words. When I was younger, I worked as a salesperson for a time, and consistently outdid my peers in terms of my sales performance. In school, I wrote persuasive essays, sometimes without even having read the materials. I was a lazy procrastinator who should have failed, but I was able to convince certain professors to change my grades by feigning passion for the subjects they taught, sounding well-informed, batting my eyelashes, and devising believable excuses tailored to trigger their empathy. I can talk my way out of virtually any conundrum. Could a stupid person do that? I highly doubt it.
And yet- there have been times when I have made up excuses that I knew sounded utterly ridiculous... "I missed the deadline because my father fell into a diabetic coma!" was one such example. Not surprisingly, I was fired after pulling that stunt. It was a fantastic job for which I was totally unqualified, that I had managed to charm my way into thanks to a fantastic interview. (I interview very well because I am glib, fluent, and self-confident.) Yet I didn't care how much of an idiot it made me look like, or what impact it might have on my future employment prospects, at the time.
To wit, sociopaths are also dense in a lot of ways. We repeatedly take unnecessary risks that endanger our own safety, and the safety of others. We do not experience the emotional feedback loop of guilt, shame and remorse, which help the majority of people to constrain poor or hurtful behaviors, and avoid making the same mistakes repeatedly. Our lack of empathy makes us insensitive and callous. We are emotionally shallow. My husband sometimes looks at me in utter disbelief, shakes his head, and says things like... "You just don't fucking *GET* it, do you?", as though I were some kind of flaming imbecile. And in some ways- I really am. :P
I am a very manipulative person. I can also be very charming. It is primarily on account of these attributes that I achieved success, in spite of doing many things throughout my lifetime which could have resulted in disastrous outcomes.
Is this a result of my intelligence, sociopathic traits, good fortune, or- more likely- a combination of these things?
When we further consider the fact that there are many different ways in which "intelligence" manifests itself, I don't think the answer is clear-cut. But it is indeed an interesting question.
No, you do not GET it. And to me that is your saving grace. That is what makes you endearing.
Delete?? Refined, well educted & social persons show all those "glib" traits, other types of psychos DO NOT. This is the second biggest misunderstanding about the condition after the "psychos are also sexual sadists", this last error can appear even in true crime books..
ReplyDeleteSome refined, well- educated people with psychopathic traits also happen to be sexual sadists. What do you really know about what goes on in private, behind their closed doors? You might be surprised at what lies beneath the surface in some folks. Don't judge by appearances. You would never know that I am one, to look at me.
DeleteWhy do you feel the need to make this distinction? To protect an idealized image of what a sociopath is, and is not? What makes you think you're such an expert, or even qualified to make such a sweeping generalization, sociopath-whisperer? :P
Some of us may not be sexually sadistic, but some of us most certainly are. ;)
And many empaths also happens to be sexual sadists at heart, hardly a sociopath criteria? I did make that comment due to interest in truths and facts instead of wild tales and myths..
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As is usual, I find more in the comments than the post. Particularly in the well-detailed logic of "A". I personally find that being physically attractive and aloof creates the influence spoken on rather well and quickly. Additionally, I did the same thing in college with writing courses talking my way through two (up to a B from F in one) and finding my writing gift early on the Proficiency Test.
ReplyDeleteThe question now becomes...are the defining traits of a sociopath the complex social acrobatics that we perform? Or the lack of empathy and open ignorance of any social grace that has no direct benefit to us?
I am tempted to believe the TV boogeyman we all are supposed to be (epitomized on "Criminal Minds" on a nightly basis) is generally of above average intellect, likely significantly so. But no distribution of any group of subjects regardless of criteria can be totally uniform and defined by a narrow set of traits. The math simply doesn't bear out.
However, I offer that some aspects of certain instances of autism may be what the original poster is referring to. Typically lower functioning ones do not do the "chameleon color" aspect mention previously but the complete disregard and lack of awareness of social graces that have no direct benefit plays to a T for most. So perhaps some interpretation of autism overlaps with Sociopathy. I find the theory solid because mental illness has much overlap and little by way of really addressing any comorbid conditions once a primary is diagnosed. Often, we make symptoms fit when a primary diagnosis fits instead of secondary and autism is a faster diagnosis than Sociopathy if there's no abject sadism on display.
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I don't believe there is a minimum intelligence to be a sociopath. You can't label all sociopaths in a category, some may be as dumb as hell, some average or slightly above, some way up. Sure, most have one or more common traits, which may or may not be obvious, but intelligence isn't a way of measuring.
ReplyDelete