I am always interested to hear different perspectives from people who identify as being sociopathic. I think it's easy to hear from people who are at different stages in their lives or who have had different experiences and co-morbidities or different intensities of the sociopathic traits. For instance, before I ever experienced anxiety (about 5 years ago), I would have never thought myself capable of it and if anyone had told me that they thought they were sociopathic but experienced anxiety, I would have thought that couldn't be true. (It's a mixed blessing to now not be so sure of myself about things like that or anything else really).
I thought this description from a reader illustrated some of this diversity:
Its such a relief to know that I am not alone. So much of what you have said on this blog rings unbelievably true. Ive never been a very honest person. Honesty has never been priority because i know that if people really knew my motivations, intentions and feelings that i would be socially outcasted. My ability to change personalities to fit into and mimic whatever social scene I am in is the only way i can fill the strange lack of feeling that ive experienced ever since i was a child.
I am exhausted from being villainized and shamed for my sexuality and inconsistency and impulsive actions. Maybe i am just projecting when i say this, but I cant accept that I am worse or not as worthy of life just because I lie and have flexible ethicals. Other people cause just as much, if not more, harm to their fellow man with honesty and set value systems. Everyone is selfish and careless at some points in their lives, or at least they should be. I think having flexible character and morals is so much more valuable then having identities and morals that you would go to war over.
I have fit into many places and situations with wild success by mixing beautiful concoctions of lies and the truth. These partial narratives have created my outward identity. But in these narratives i do give glimpses of truth and with this i have been working on piecing together my true personal identity. What i have found about myself, is that I am complicated and have a rich story to tell.
I will never identify as a sociopath because it feels like a betrayal. I have tried to "define" or "identify" myself as many things to cover up for some of my unconventional behaviors. Ive tried being a sex/love addict to explain my cheating and jumping from partner to partner, or bipolar to explain my sometimes wild actions. Ive claimed that people close to me have died just to explain being unnecessarily emotional, so no one will know where my anger or agitation is really coming from. The truth is though that i don't have an excuse that i can give people, other then coming out as a sociopath. But If i claimed the title "sociopath" i risk making the term inauthentic to myself.
I Had a good childhood. no real traumas. I am successful and privileged and damn lucky in my exploits. I have no reason to think that this world is lonely, random and inescapably disastrous. But thats how i know the world to be. And whats interesting is that that doesn't bother me. we as individuals are too small for it to matter what we go through because for all we know the universe as we know it is just a micro combustion; the spark of a flint striking steal in a bigger picture we can not see or conceive of.
That was sort of a long winded rant but I needed to share it for some reason with someone who might understand because you shared with all of us. you really are an inspiring character and excellent example of a slice of society no one wants to look at.
I thought this description from a reader illustrated some of this diversity:
Its such a relief to know that I am not alone. So much of what you have said on this blog rings unbelievably true. Ive never been a very honest person. Honesty has never been priority because i know that if people really knew my motivations, intentions and feelings that i would be socially outcasted. My ability to change personalities to fit into and mimic whatever social scene I am in is the only way i can fill the strange lack of feeling that ive experienced ever since i was a child.
I am exhausted from being villainized and shamed for my sexuality and inconsistency and impulsive actions. Maybe i am just projecting when i say this, but I cant accept that I am worse or not as worthy of life just because I lie and have flexible ethicals. Other people cause just as much, if not more, harm to their fellow man with honesty and set value systems. Everyone is selfish and careless at some points in their lives, or at least they should be. I think having flexible character and morals is so much more valuable then having identities and morals that you would go to war over.
I have fit into many places and situations with wild success by mixing beautiful concoctions of lies and the truth. These partial narratives have created my outward identity. But in these narratives i do give glimpses of truth and with this i have been working on piecing together my true personal identity. What i have found about myself, is that I am complicated and have a rich story to tell.
I will never identify as a sociopath because it feels like a betrayal. I have tried to "define" or "identify" myself as many things to cover up for some of my unconventional behaviors. Ive tried being a sex/love addict to explain my cheating and jumping from partner to partner, or bipolar to explain my sometimes wild actions. Ive claimed that people close to me have died just to explain being unnecessarily emotional, so no one will know where my anger or agitation is really coming from. The truth is though that i don't have an excuse that i can give people, other then coming out as a sociopath. But If i claimed the title "sociopath" i risk making the term inauthentic to myself.
I Had a good childhood. no real traumas. I am successful and privileged and damn lucky in my exploits. I have no reason to think that this world is lonely, random and inescapably disastrous. But thats how i know the world to be. And whats interesting is that that doesn't bother me. we as individuals are too small for it to matter what we go through because for all we know the universe as we know it is just a micro combustion; the spark of a flint striking steal in a bigger picture we can not see or conceive of.
That was sort of a long winded rant but I needed to share it for some reason with someone who might understand because you shared with all of us. you really are an inspiring character and excellent example of a slice of society no one wants to look at.
I really identified with this: "I have no reason to think that this world is lonely, random and inescapably disastrous. But thats how i know the world to be." I think it describes well the way the world looks like when you don't have any of the usual emotional/love/hope/etc. wool over your eyes like others do (but obviously still other types of wool -- sociopaths are not immune to their own delusions about themselves and the world.).
I am an empath interested in learning about the mind of a sociopath. I am considering writing a book, but want to get more information about how your sociopathic mind works. I am interested in stories of manipulations and detailed accounts of thought processes.
ReplyDeleteI am also interested in becoming more sociopathic/manipulative and seeing if I can attain the sociopathic social genius you possess.
Sociopaths, Please email me at agnimaharesh@yahoo.com if you're interested
"I am also interested in becoming more sociopathic/manipulative and seeing if I can attain the sociopathic social genius you possess."
DeleteLet me tell you ahead of time, a lot of people are not going to understand. Prepare for a lot of "but you need empathy".
I thought it was a joke comment by them, Scarlet
DeleteWhy would you call it "sociopathic social genius?" The sociopath
ReplyDeletemanupilates others through hope, and giving the impression he can fill a need.
That's why the fields of entertainment, politics, teaching and clergy are rife with
sociopaths.
People are stuck in the hum drum existences they must live in, to obtain the
basic material necessities of life. They live a ball and chain, wage slave
existence. They work for the weekend. They survive paycheck to paycheck and
live lives of quiet desperation. They want someone to rescue them from
purgetory They are "nowhere" people riding an endless carasel towards a black
hole. They are like the character "Scottie" in the Hitchcock film "Vertigo" (1959)
The role of the sociopath is to be like the female lead "Matadlene" and to trick
them into thinking there's substance there when in truth, there's nothing there.
This works especially well with women, which is why James Holmes can
decorate his prison cell with lots of photographs of the lovelies who declare their
undying love for him. Behind bars, he poses no threat to them, like the JR. High
student poses no threat to his 30 something school teacher who rapes him.
I can't relate to all of this, but lately I can relate to not just feeling quite as connected to people.
ReplyDeletePosts like this are an awesome reminder that in the end, we just live and die - there's no real rhyme or reason to it. It reminds me of the fact that the empathic mind creates a lot of delusions. Posts like these help keep me grounded in reality. They remind me that I am not special, that no one is special.
And that in and of itself gives me a great deal of strength and a lot less worry about what actually happens over the course of me life. And, in turn, that allows me to truly live it.
I think there are truly special people and are a joy to know.
DeleteThe truth is though that i don't have an excuse that i can give people, other then coming out as a sociopath. But If i claimed the title "sociopath" i risk making the term inauthentic to myself."
ReplyDelete^This ties in really well to what Kevin Dutton wrote about concerning how easy and "acceptable" is to vilify sociopaths, when in reality, we cannot change how our brains are wired any more than someone suffering from bipolar disease, or another mental illness, could.
I mentioned in a comment in the previous blog entry that no one who works under me could do what I do. I *know* that most of them would be overwhelmed by the burden of responsibility I carry (and which I can carry without stress). Most of them would not have been comfortable with the level of risk I assumed in becoming the founder of a growing organization. To be clear: I identify as someone with a sociopathic personality type, and I do possess a position of high leadership (at the executive level).
The irony is that if the majority of those who work under me actually *knew* me, and all of my parts: the good, the bad and the ugly- they would label me morally unqualified to fulfill my role. If I were to claim to suffer from depression, sex "addiction", or any other psychological ailment, they might rally around to support me. But if I came out as a high functioning sociopath who "struggles with" a penchant for Machiavellian manipulation, excessive impulsivity, sadistic tendencies and a tendency to selectively obey laws- they would probably lynch me. :) At best, they would certainly expect me to step down. And yet- it is precisely because of my personality type that I am mentally and emotionally equipped to do what I do.
Psychopathy is a coin with two sides. We admire the traits which make sociopaths so useful and capable, but we reject their "struggles." After all- who has sympathy for the callous and the harsh? Who has empathy for those who cannot demonstrate it?
But we are not victims. We abhor pity. So we will continue to hide in plain sight- without compunction or guilt- and continue to do what we do best, which is to assume leadership amidst hardship and challenge, functioning effectively where angels- and mere mortals- fear to tread.
I totally agree that some sociopaths do have the skills to manage stressfull situations and positions. How do you manage not to take too many risks that could lead a business (and employees jobs I guess) to ruin?
DeleteAs ME has explained, some sociopaths go round and round ruining, by their behavior, their own positions. This is a very common scheme that anyone can observe with most sociopaths.
Non sociopaths could say "just let them do, wait, and see them collapse". It's all about the sociopath with himself, with his own behaviour.
But it might not apply to all sociopaths... and it was my question... why some of them collapse and some don't?
How do you manage not to take too many risks that could lead a business (and employees jobs I guess) to ruin?
DeleteWell that's pretty simple, Lala... I simply express my proclivity for risk-taking in others spheres of my life. For instance, I participate in adrenaline-inducing, extreme sports. Which is not to say that I am unwilling to take professional risks; quite the contrary. I simply will not do so irrationally.
However, I run a non-profit organization. My objective is not to make as much money as I can, it is to utilize our resources judiciously to fulfill objectives which exist to *help* as many people as we can. My role is to protect my flock, not to fleece its members.
Then this is the side of the coin that is not enough highlightened regarding some sociopaths!
DeleteAs ME has explained, some sociopaths go round and round ruining, by their behavior, their own positions. This is a very common scheme that anyone can observe with most sociopaths"
Delete^This is true. I admit that prior to establishing my organization, I was unable to hold down a job for any length of time. I always ended up quitting. I was not able to submit to outside authority, and I would not put up with anything. If I sensed that I was not being respected or appreciated, I simply quit... On impulse, on a dime, in the middle of a huge rush even if it was a major inconvenience, without prior notice, etc. I gave no thought to the repercussions of my actions. I just figured that I'd find another job. To hell with the fallout. Once I quit, I simply stopped thinking about it... Not my problem anymore.
I was never sufficiently motivated to remain invested in something that was not mine, to promote an agenda over which I had no control.
I opted to forge my own path- and it's worked out quite well for me, so far. It really keeps me accountable, because I am invested in this organization: It's *mine*.
A , love listening to you - like a breath of fresh air .....you remind me of my husband. Beautiful people. I wouldn't want to live without your personality types. I feel protected and loved. Your virtues are expressed by actions.
DeleteThanks, Chiquita. :)
DeleteHaven't heard from you in awhile... Hope all is well with you and your family.
I'm new to this blog but I suspect others like me - the horde of unwashed emotional betas - stumble upon this blog because they suspect someone they know is a sociopath and want to either confirm or understand. I feel I've moved to the next stage and can impart my heart felt perspective on the matter based on my own experience.
ReplyDeleteI feel strongly that sociopathy is a spectrum like everything else - autism, gender, sexuality, etc. In that sense, nature and nurture have varying degrees of influence on the where any sociopath lands on the scale. Brain development states that are "influence-able by the nurture" during development can probably shift a person along the scale but others are just as likely locked in. In my case, my teenage daughter is on the sociopath spectrum. I'm sure countless fathers have felt this way, but I didn't come to this conclusion based on emotion. My reaction (surpirse!) is intense pity. I feel lacking empathy robs a person of a fundamental quality of being human. I don't feel pity for her though. I have the pity a sighted person feels for the blind. It's a mix of sadness for what they don't have and a respect for what they have instead.
But of course I feel this way. I can no better experience the world without empathy than a sociopath can with empathy. I am accepting of my daughter and her unique mental construction. This might be shocking to other empathic people, but I contributed nothing to result in her lack of empathy.
At the end of the day, I'd rather she be a sociopath on my side rather than against me. Could she kill me without remorse? I have rarely doubted this. Her biological siblings could not as I've had time and success (luck) with engineering empathy during their brain development. My interest with my daughter's sociopathy lies in managing her sociopathy so her behavior aligns with my morality and emotional states.
My daughter has several weaknesses associated with her sociopathy that I can leverage to manage her. I am genuinely curious if other sociopaths recognize these same weaknesses/oppurtunities in themselves. Feel free to leave a reply.
1. She has an inability to experience a state of satisfaction. She has an insatiable desire for "more". I didn't think this had a link to sociopathy but I'm curious if other sociopaths experience this.
2. Does your acceptance of your sociopathy lead you to conclude your brain states are physically deterministic, or do you believe you possess free will? If you have free will, do you believe your sociopathic brain can be altered to experience empathy (with technology, magic, willpower, behavioral modification, in theory)? If so, would you?
I know I'm posting anonymous but I'll be checking replies and responeses frequently.
“Engineering empathy”? “Managing” your daughter’s “sociopathy” to align her behaviour with *your* morality and emotional states? Dwelling on questions such as whether your offspring could kill you without remorse, and strategizing ways to manipulate your daughter into “staying on your side” to avoid her seeking revenge? Cultivate bitterness and resentment in your children, much? :P
DeleteYou do realize that most teenagers express an unusually high degree of self-absorption, which indeed impairs their capacity to feel “empathy”, right? This is normal.
You speak of your daughter as though she is some sort of lab experiment. Do you honestly think that this cool, calculating way of leveraging and exploiting her *developmental immaturity* and hormonal instability to make her behaviors align with YOUR moral preferences and “emotional states” have “contributed nothing to result in her lack of empathy?” LOL!
Shall we add “dense” to your impressive list of character traits, as well as “incredibly insensitive, self-absorbed, moody jerk”? XD
“I'm sure countless fathers have felt this way, but I didn't come to this conclusion based on emotion. My reaction (surpirse!) is intense pity.”
^Your daughter is going through intense hormonal and developmental changes, and you are only interested in “managing” her behavior so that it conforms to your preferences. You *disdain and pity* her when she very naturally thumbs her nose at your moral constructs and expectations- a normal phase in adolescent development- but not because you actually *care* about her. Oh no. As you said, you don’t draw conclusions about your little girl based on emotion. Instead, you magnanimously manifest a condescending “respect” for her infirmity from atop the pedestal of your superior human “wholeness”, whatever the fuck that’s supposed to mean. You patronizing prick.
You’ll be checking frequently for responses, will you?
Of course you will. This post is not about your daughter, it is about *you*.
You’re a flaming fucking narcissist. The sooner you come to terms with this, and get some therapy so you can avoid doing even more irreversible damage to your children, the better. It is probably too late for your eldest daughter. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if she were sociopathic; it is an anecdotal cliché around these parts that sociopaths tend to be the children of narcissists.
Hear that, dad? You’re a fucking cliché.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Are/were there other sociopathic people in your family / abcestry that you know of ? lol abces of course I mean ancestry
DeleteWoa! I think you read a lot more subtext into my comment than really exists. I do know the difference between typical teen behavior and behavior far outside the norm but I gather many randos who show up here don't. The link between narcissist parents and sociopath teens sounds intriguing and I'm going to look into it. I think relationships like these tend to support the need to change the DSM from category based to a matrixed framework. The rest of your insults and comments about me and made me laugh. Thank you for the morning LOL.
DeleteTo Anonymous - I don't have access to my daughter's full ancestry but what I do know suggests her biological parents could be sociopaths.
DeleteAnd yet, what's really funny, anonydad, is that I did not read one iota of subtext in your post. I merely reflected your *own words* right back to you. You are the one who said you want to "align your daughter's behavior to your morality and emotional states (I.e: Your moods.)
DeleteAllow me to draw your attention to more narcissistic tripe: "By all outside measurements with her peers she is a stunning academic and athletic success, and she has a bright future ahead of her (if she can self manage being differently equipped). Intensive intervention has kept her out of juvenile hall..."
So in spite of her astounding successes, you still aren't satisfied with who she is as a person. Unfortunately, this is typical.
My father was a violent psychopath. I was probably a lot like your daughter as a teenager.
The best you can hope for is to earn her respect. The way your daughter is wired, if she does not respect you, she will disregard your authority altogether, say whatever is necessary to manage *you* and shake off the yoke of your controlling ways, and grow to resent you. Sounds like this is already the case.
If you really cared about your daughter as a person: Her feelings, hopes and dreams, you would be more concerned about what's going on inside of her than how her behavior reflects upon and impacts *you*. You would ask yourself how you might have contributed to the problem at hand. All I hear from you is how you are not *at all* to blame for your daughter's conduct issues.
I'm not buying it. You sound like a narc. Takes one to know one.
A - Ok, I will address your points. Aligning behavior, leveraging weaknesses, managing behavior - these are crude descriptors for "parenting" as parenting includes assumed emotional states like love, forgiveness, patience, etc. I parent with all of those and I deeply love my daughter. There is no physical, emotional, or any type of abuse from me or my wife towards our kids. Despite the abuse our daughter dishes out to the family, I find an ability to cope by maintaining "auto" positivity with her. I didn't intend to trigger anyone, much less a comparison with your terrible father and my language was intentionally "dark" as this is a website about Sociopaths. Sociopaths couldn't care less about me, my daughter, or our problems so including emotional states seemed unnecessary.
DeleteMy daughter was adopted from foster care as an older child. She survived neglect and abuse so severe and for so long that is beyond the comprehension of regular people. I cannot imagine. Sociopathy has clearly been a survival trait.
I have many flaws, issues, weaknesses, failings but being a shitty parent isn't one.
Despite my callous language in my original post, I do care about her own internal emotional state. But understanding her inability to comprehend mine or anyone else's eases my distress with her behavior. So in that sense, you are absolutely right. This question is probably more about me than her.
It's better to speak honestly here, as you've discovered.
DeleteAs for this place being 'dark' - you will also find sharp insight and glorious openness to experience. These are likely to be of use to you in understanding how your daughter sees and approaches the world.
You're on a journey. Be kind to yourself.
DeleteDon't worry about it. You didn't "trigger" me. This is what I do here. I enjoy ripping people's posts to shreds I'd I think it is warranted, or the mood strikes. :)
I simply took your words at face value and responded to them accordingly. Using sociopathic language to explain your relationship to your daughter misrepresents the veritable nature of said relationship, *if* what you say is true.
Just because we are relatively unemotional does not mean we are unable to recognize the importance of safeguarding the emotional stability of our children. After all, sociopathy emerges as a complex defense mechanism to safeguard against the "dangers" of vulnerability, which opens us to being hurt. Most of us *were* abused. There is even some evidence that many of us were hypersensitive as children. At any rate, it is clear that there are genetic as well as environmental influences at play in the development of psychopathy.
these are crude descriptors for "parenting" as parenting includes assumed emotional states like love, forgiveness, patience, etc. I parent with all of those and I deeply love my daughter.
DeleteNot necessarily. They are descriptors of *narcissistic* parenting. "Love, forgiveness and patience" are by no means traits universally exhibited by all parents, and there is no reason for me to assume that you manifest these just because you're a father.
@ A
Delete"There is even some evidence that many of us were hypersensitive as children."
I think there's something to this. My dad used to tell me "Don't be so sensitive." Of course he might have just been saying that to get me to stop complaining or point out that what he was saying was wrong.
"There is even some evidence that many of us were hypersensitive as children."
DeleteI've always found this intriguing.
Many sociopaths understand emotion, they've felt it before growing up. It's what separates them from psycopaths.
Sociopaths *do* feel emotions, they feel it more intensely than others, though it's very short lived. Often times they try to cling to it, trying to hold onto the intensity.
Now, I wonder whether sociopaths purposely numb and surpress their emotions in fear of getting hurt or If their brain automatically just isn't capable of the spectrum of emotions.
I guess what in asking is, are sociopaths unable to or just choose not to feel
I use the two terms interchangeably, although I understand that the term "psychopath" often refers to one born with the condition, and "sociopath" to describe the person who develops it as a result of abuse and trauma. Frankly, I think that is an artificial distinction, and that nature and nuture are always involved in their development.
DeleteI am not someone with the full-blown, clinical manifestation of the disorder, but if anyone meets the diagnostic criteria in full, it was my father as a younger man. He was incarcerated for years for extremely violent crimes, for which he showed no remorse. And...Gasp! The man has feelings.
Psychopaths and sociopaths have emotions. This conception of the sociopath as a robot, as popularized in the media, is false. As someone with a lot of sociopathic traits, I admit that my emotions responses are shallow. My feelings don't last long, and their manifestation is blunted. Wherein negative emotions such as sadness is concerned, this us both a reaction and a choice. I suppress the feeling quickly with thoughts of brushing myself off and getting it together, and then it's gone. The thing is, I am so used to protecting my core this way that I couldn't hold on to an intense emotion even if I tried.
Sociopaths have "blunted affect", which refers to short-lived, shallow emotions experiences. We are not emotionless cyborgs. Even my father, who certainly would have qualified as a full-blown clinical specimen as a young man, has feelings. They simply manifest differently.
Other emotions are also blunted (or practically non-existent) in us, such as fear. I think this is neurological, and related to a propensity for risk-taking. We fail to experience transformative remorse because our capacity to feel shame, guilt and remorse have been hijacked by the sociopathic defense mechanism.
There is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding the emotional landscape of sociopaths and psychopaths. I'd like to see this explored a bit more in depth.
The above phrase should read *emotional experiences* and not "emotions experiences".
Delete@SSS... Mine always yelled at me if I cried. He'd kick or shove me, tell me to go choke myself, or to play outside in heavy traffic whenever I did something to piss him off. Which for a period in my life was pretty much all the time. I was an insufferable smartass. XD
You can control it as much as you can control the need to breathe
Delete@A
DeleteYou facinate me, as everything you have been saying is highly relatable in regairds to myself. I identify as a full blown sociopath, although I dont believe I am this way by nature. Maybe it has little to do with that but I fully believe there have been many important, real-life events that ultimately contributed to my mental status.
I remember being a highly sensitive child up to the age of about 6. My dad used to constantly yell at me (not my younger sibling) for pretty much anything and everything he could justify to himself, and I'm fully convinced he used to be, and maybe still is a narc. Not only that, but I picked up rather early that he saw freaking out as some kind of sadistic game, in which he won every time I broke down, cried, and ran off into my room.
At a point, I got sick of being so weak in comparison and I started to grow this unwavering desire to make him lose at his own game. I pretty much never cried after that, ever, for any reason except on a few occasions which I can remember, but I know for a fact that I purposely manifested my own, rather successful, internal defence mechanisms, to a point where I even felt rather emotionally detached from everyone before I hit puberty.
I still feel a wide range of very intense emotions but they are always short lived and I find the concept of empathy to be non-existent in my version of reality, and my emotional responses in regards to other individuals are always shallow, either that or I'm faking it. I believe that I am fully able to recognize and understand the emotions and plights of others, I just simply don't care about them on an emotional level, and I am utterly impoverished of the capacity to comfort someone unless I'm feeling like playing that game - and usually I am not in the mood. In fact, the majority of the time other people's emotionality is somewhat irritating to me.
"1. She has an inability to experience a state of satisfaction. She has an insatiable desire for "more". I didn't think this had a link to sociopathy but I'm curious if other sociopaths experience this."
ReplyDeleteI kind of do, but it's not sustainable. There's bursts where I want a lot of things and feel like I can conquer the world. But I can't keep that megalomania going, so I end up in ruts of not trying too.
"2. Does your acceptance of your sociopathy lead you to conclude your brain states are physically deterministic, or do you believe you possess free will?"
I wouldn't pretend my condition gives me an understanding of neurology. But personally I don't believe in free will. The universe is strictly mechanistic and while humans are complex they exist in the physical world and are bound by physical laws.
I do think my condition means I'm not troubled by this. I don't honestly care that I don't have free will. Of course if I found out I did it still wouldn't matter, it's kind of a moot question. I wouldn't change my actions either way.
Interesting, Scarlet:
Delete"I do think my condition means I'm not troubled by this. I don't honestly care that I don't have free will. Of course if I found out I did it still wouldn't matter, it's kind of a moot question. I wouldn't change my actions either way."
I've always thought the free will question was moot: we generally behave as if we do have free will. We choose our clothes each morning. And, like you, I'm a materialist. But does that mean our current behavioural patterns can't change *if we wish them to*.
Anonymous father,
DeleteYou've recognised your daughter is differently equipped.
Can you assist her develop tools that will help her thrive* - even if that "thriving" looks different to what you might want it to look?
"We're all wild animals, brother" ~ Jake, Adventure Time
"Become who you are - there are no guarantees" ~ Christopher S. Hyatt
"Society is a context, not a constraint" ~ me.
*keeping in mind we all belong to a social species
Hi North,
DeleteYes, I have and am guiding my daughter so she develops tools that will help her thrive in life. By all outside measurements with her peers she is a stunning academic and athletic success, and she has a bright future ahead of her (if she can self manage being differently equipped). Intensive intervention has kept her out of juvenile hall and away from being diagnosed with Conduct Disorder. I think it has also allowed her to develop a sliver of empathy.
The huge challenge is her social behavior and indifference to "right and wrong". Without empathy she is forced to "reason" through actions which is incredibly difficult for even the brightest teens.
Hi Scarlet,
DeleteThank you for the responses. If there existed a way to give you empathy and eliminate your sociopathy, would you choose it?
There are a few good posts and discussions on parenting a sociopathic child.
DeleteI find the concept of skilled (wise) / unskilled (unwise) more useful than the right / wrong dichotomy. Skill is by degree rather than category.
Ultimately, you want her to retain her place in society insofar as she needs to for her livelihood. She wants this too and has her own mechanisms for gauging the strength of her position. These mechanisms are quite different - like sensitivity to blame / blame-shifting. M.E. has talked about adopting codes (Mormonism) and creating processing shortcuts.
Empathy is a very important tool that humans use to collaborate for survival. Society emerges, which preferences homogeneity for self-reinforcement. But differences help the group adapt to challenges.
It looks as though you are trying to see her for who she is. She wants good things, like everyone else - and let's face it, we all differ in what we like. It's better to ask for what you want than to a) follow rules and deny what you want (common in empaths, destructive to self); b) manipulate (common in sociopaths; destructive to relationships).
Help her develop safely in accordance with her own nature.
"If there existed a way to give you empathy and eliminate your sociopathy, would you choose it?"
DeleteHahahaha, no. No way.
"These mechanisms are quite different - like sensitivity to blame / blame-shifting. M.E. has talked about adopting codes (Mormonism) and creating processing shortcuts."
Exactly, it took me a while to come to my own personal code and shortcuts. I never got ME's whole Mormonism thing, too cultish and honestly she seems to break the rules so often. I find just developing one's own personal code is easier.
Shortcuts are easier, especially with the industry I'm in (pharmacy) and that's to simply be as lawful as possible. Follow every rule that way when people get mad you look like a paragon, plus you get the joy of hurting people using the rules.
"Help her develop safely in accordance with her own nature."
Exactly this, you need to guide her, but don't try to force anything foreign to her nature. Help her understand she gets more as part of society and that that means taking on certain burdens.
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ReplyDeleteWith Venus in the 8th house, I love Femme Fatales.
ReplyDeleteThey are like the song "Laura," but she's "only a dream."
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Strange how a siciopath sends a mail to another sociopath wanting to connect and be understood. Sounds like she is asking for empathy.
ReplyDeleteWould you respond to the email? If not, why not? Also, why would you think that she is asking for empathy?
DeleteThe person would be trying to connect and to be understood, and in that sense, yes, it would be asking for empathy. I asked why you would think that she is asking for empathy, because "empathising" is not something that a sociopath does with ease in some instances or life situations (take the "hysterics" of others, for instance). However, technically speaking, you are correct in thinking that a sociopath would be able to empathize with another sociopath regarding sociopathic thinking, understanding and way of life.
DeleteYes, what you write is true.
DeleteI guess that even a cold hearted psychopath has some sort of ability to connect and thereby have empathy. But it is ironic. Maybe it displays the multitude of human nature. Psychiatric labels are never really correct, even if that psychopath is really despicable.
Connection doesnt require an empathetic response in 100% of cases.
DeleteI read this a few days ago, and it fascinated me. So I will share it with you.
ReplyDeleteThe following text is from the book "How the Mind Works" with Steven Pinker. Chapter 6 - hotheads, universal passion, feeling machines;
The amok state is chillingly cognitive. It is triggered not by a stimulus, not by a tumor, not by a random spray of brain chemicals,
but by an idea. The idea is so standard that the following summary of the amok mindset, composed in 1968 by a psychiatrist who had interviewed seven hospitalized amoks in Papua New Guinea, is an apt description of mass murderes continents and decades away:
I am an important or "big man." I posess only my personal sense of dignity. My life has been reduced to nothing by an intolerable insult. Therefore, I have nothing to lose except my life, which is nothing. So I trade my life with yours, as your life is favoured. The exchange is in my favour, so I shall not only kill you, but I shall kill many of you, and at the same time rehabilitate myself in the eyes of the group of which I am a member, even though I might be killed in the process.
The amok syndrome is an extreme instance of the puzzle of the human emotions. Exotic at first glance, upon scrutiny they turn out to be universal; quintessentially irrational, they are tightly interwoven with abstract thought and have a cold logic of their own.
It is fascinating, I enjoyed your post. I read pain in "intolerable insult", and desperation in the gap between losing life, taking others and redeeming oneself. He can see his life is nothing, yet the survival drive remains, and the drive to belong. As you say, it's quintessentially irrational, it's deeper than logic. The logic is applied post facto.
DeleteYes, I love these human delights. It connects with me and my previous experience, or gives me new experiences by the description of these words.
DeleteThere is a typo in the text that is shared, it should say;
I am NOT an important or "big man."
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To the reader in the OP:
ReplyDelete"I think having flexible character and morals is so much more valuable then having identities and morals that you would go to war over. "
Any sort of rigidity around morals is forced, I think.
"I have fit into many places and situations with wild success by mixing beautiful concoctions of lies and the truth. These partial narratives have created my outward identity. But in these narratives i do give glimpses of truth and with this i have been working on piecing together my true personal identity. What i have found about myself, is that I am complicated and have a rich story to tell. "
I wonder about the self, whether it is any more than the current state of integrating inputs (internal and external) and wired pathways. Is it more than knowing what you want right now, and having some sort of narrative about your past? History is always convenient narrative!!
A friend recently sent me this link - you might be interested: http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/09/21/comment-neuroscience-backs-buddhist-belief-self-isnt-constant-ever-changing
“Buddhists argue that nothing is constant, everything changes through time, you have a constantly changing stream of consciousness,” Evan Thompson, a philosophy of mind professor at the University of British Columbia, tells Quartz. “And from a neuroscience perspective, the brain and body is constantly in flux. There’s nothing that corresponds to the sense that there’s an unchanging self.”
The unchanging self is the construction.
"I will never identify as a sociopath because it feels like a betrayal."
Could you please expand on this? Why is it a betrayal? Because your story is richer than a label (as I read from your following sentence, but I'm not clear.)
Thanks.
He still has survival drive. Moron, all living things have survival drive if one didnt they would be dead because they would not do what is necessary to survive. His life is nothing, u tools are following ME around.
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