This was an interesting comment on an old post from someone who identifies as narcissistic, but actually became self-aware and got better:
Everything I've read about narcissism says leave them alone...I was physically abused as a child and had a series of crises (death of the parent who abused me, failed relationships etc)
Now I can remember how I slowly died and became an unfeeling shell.
For 20 years of my life I lived the life of a narcissist..compartmentalised life..using and abusing everyone and everything..A part of me knew it was wrong but it was a very small part of me..For the most part there was an unfeeling emptiness that I hid very well.
I got married and had 2 children..compartmentalising allowed me to have something that remotely resembled a marriage on the surface.
But nothing filled the hole till I decided to try spiritual practise...even that was narcissistic in its nature..I felt that I was better and knew more than anyone.
I had an experience..I guess you could call it a spiritual experience..After the experience I slowly started feeling again..It's taken 7 years so far..I ve learnt to take leaps of faith..and I've taken many..Every leap revealed something about myself to me..my marriage began to crumble..and I recently took another leap because I could not deal with it..Nothing helped...and something snapped in my head..The pain was gone..All of a sudden..I'm ok on my own...my wife is a person my children are their own beings...I don't know if this is just a phase..We put labels on things we don't understand thinking the labels are reality..forgetting that we've just collected a set of traits...grouped them together and put a label on the group.
I thought that last paragraph was particularly interesting, especially, "my wife is a person my children are their own beings". My current therapist (and I apologize, I haven't had the time to verify or source this assertion) says that all of the cluster Bs suffer from a common ailment -- that they fail to see others as separate individuals, but rather perceive them to be an extension of themselves. Apparently we all start that way as infants, seeing mother and world as all being the same "us/I". Eventually as a toddler we expand our reach a little and realize that there can be a distance between us and mother, that we are our own autonomous self, and that psychological development allows us to see our true place in the world: that we are one of many people who also have separate identifies, inner worlds, volition, likes and dislikes, and finally that we all have separate realities and to challenge someone else's reality and assert ones own instead can be as violative to that person's personhood as rape. I've always thought that attitude was particular to narcissism, or at least not shared by sociopaths, who seem to very well understand that everyone is different, which is why we can both seem so tolerant and skilled at manipulation, because we see and target people's individual predilections. But my therapist believes that this is common (or perhaps even necessary) in an ASPD diagnosis. I do admit that in my most antisocial, I disregard the personhood of the people around me. But it's not because I have an inability to see them as anything other than just an extension of myself/universe. I wonder, is this a possible distinction between the classic sociopathic diagnosis versus the DSM's ASPD? Can any other sociopathic leaning individuals or people that know sociopaths speak to whether this trait is shared not just in ASPD but the broader sociopathy?
Everything I've read about narcissism says leave them alone...I was physically abused as a child and had a series of crises (death of the parent who abused me, failed relationships etc)
Now I can remember how I slowly died and became an unfeeling shell.
For 20 years of my life I lived the life of a narcissist..compartmentalised life..using and abusing everyone and everything..A part of me knew it was wrong but it was a very small part of me..For the most part there was an unfeeling emptiness that I hid very well.
I got married and had 2 children..compartmentalising allowed me to have something that remotely resembled a marriage on the surface.
But nothing filled the hole till I decided to try spiritual practise...even that was narcissistic in its nature..I felt that I was better and knew more than anyone.
I had an experience..I guess you could call it a spiritual experience..After the experience I slowly started feeling again..It's taken 7 years so far..I ve learnt to take leaps of faith..and I've taken many..Every leap revealed something about myself to me..my marriage began to crumble..and I recently took another leap because I could not deal with it..Nothing helped...and something snapped in my head..The pain was gone..All of a sudden..I'm ok on my own...my wife is a person my children are their own beings...I don't know if this is just a phase..We put labels on things we don't understand thinking the labels are reality..forgetting that we've just collected a set of traits...grouped them together and put a label on the group.
I thought that last paragraph was particularly interesting, especially, "my wife is a person my children are their own beings". My current therapist (and I apologize, I haven't had the time to verify or source this assertion) says that all of the cluster Bs suffer from a common ailment -- that they fail to see others as separate individuals, but rather perceive them to be an extension of themselves. Apparently we all start that way as infants, seeing mother and world as all being the same "us/I". Eventually as a toddler we expand our reach a little and realize that there can be a distance between us and mother, that we are our own autonomous self, and that psychological development allows us to see our true place in the world: that we are one of many people who also have separate identifies, inner worlds, volition, likes and dislikes, and finally that we all have separate realities and to challenge someone else's reality and assert ones own instead can be as violative to that person's personhood as rape. I've always thought that attitude was particular to narcissism, or at least not shared by sociopaths, who seem to very well understand that everyone is different, which is why we can both seem so tolerant and skilled at manipulation, because we see and target people's individual predilections. But my therapist believes that this is common (or perhaps even necessary) in an ASPD diagnosis. I do admit that in my most antisocial, I disregard the personhood of the people around me. But it's not because I have an inability to see them as anything other than just an extension of myself/universe. I wonder, is this a possible distinction between the classic sociopathic diagnosis versus the DSM's ASPD? Can any other sociopathic leaning individuals or people that know sociopaths speak to whether this trait is shared not just in ASPD but the broader sociopathy?
It's completely different so see people as separate people. Then to see personal traits in them that you can use or manipulate. The fact that you are manipulating them, means you are not recognizing their individuality, but seeing them as mere objects and extensions of your will. Manipulation means to make one a tool of your will. Your will is then extended to this other person, and no separation is seen.
ReplyDeleteIf you would understand this separation, you would not behave this way. And i think it goes far beyond understanding or feeling, it's a system/part of a person that never developed fully. We do all start this way, as a narcissists. Narcissism is mental retardation in adulthood.
I'm very interested in this comment, I'll have to think about it further.
DeleteI can understand what you mean by "Manipulation means to make one a tool of your will. Your will is then extended to this other person"
but I don't know it necessarily follows that
"and no separation is seen. If you would understand this separation, you would not behave this way."
Maybe it does?? As I become more aware of myself and others, I see the patterns in their behaviour and it's easy to see how I *might* manipulate them... I simply have no inclination to do so and I find other ways of dealing with the situation.
Is it a predator / prey view of the world that drives the sociopath? That's what I figured the difference was.
I have pondered in recent posts whether or not dealing with a socio is easier than dealing with a narcissist. (My history: narc father, narc husband -> learned helplessness -> affair with socio -> life explosion -> rebuilding phase)
The quoted commenter basically tells my ex-husband's story too, although my ex-h hasn't yet healed at all. He simply cannot see me and our boys as separate individuals. My expressing ANY preference which doesn't align with his desires causes him to *crumble*. He flat out can't cope with it. To be honest, it's still difficult for me to talk about my marriage. My ideas of humans crashing into each other and the preference for mercy is because, as Anon 1:19 PM says, his development was retarded, there's part of him that hasn't developed and it makes life very painful for him. It's very sad - but I can't save him. He must save himself. I agree fully that it goes beyond understanding or feeling (as do other trauma responses like learned helplessness and co-dependency.)
When I resist his manipulations or his control-freakery, it's like the fabric of his mind tears. It's as though he loses control of his whole world. He can't let go of me.
When I resist the socio, he sulks because he lost a game. I think he's intrigued as to why he lost it... but I don't think it tears his soul apart (granted, he invested a lot less in me than my ex-husband.) I feel - and this might be purely naive - that he might have the capacity to see beyond a game... It at least seems to me the posters on this blog have awareness of what they are doing and some have expressed capacity for a shared project in relationships... but perhaps I am wrong and there is an innate desire for control. I have engaged with very fruitful discussions with other socios here and there, but these little journeys together are short-lived.
Perhaps it depends on individual history.
North, I love your comment. And will think about it. :))
Delete"...and something snapped in my head..The pain was gone..All of a sudden..I'm ok on my own...my wife is a person my children are their own beings...I don't know if this is just a phase..We put labels on things we don't understand thinking the labels are reality..forgetting that we've just collected a set of traits...grouped them together and put a label on the group."
Grouping people, labeling them. So easy to do yet so stupid and self-limiting Seems counterproductive after a certain point. Dig a bit and we all bleed red.
"Now I can remember how slowed I died . . . became an unfeeling shell."
Hiding the void within, the buried pain, is such a drain on the life force. But all hurt being are like turtles who feel threatened, ducking their heads inside their shells.
More to say on this post but I've got to have another glass and brood a bit. Been a long but fairly productive day. Words elude my meaning.
Mr. Hyde
Mr. Hyde-Your post this morning made me giggle.:) Since the topic was avocados, and you requested "dark & thunderous" music, my mind immediately went to the song "Wicked Garden", off the "Stone Temple Pilot's" album "Core". The whole album is stellar, in my opinion.:)
Delete"Wicked Garden" sounds right up my tree branch. Thanks, Anon. Inspiration is always welcome. And the Paris-traumatized matrix can only sprong in relieved delight at your giggling. :)
DeleteMr. Hyde
If you like the song "Wicked Garden", you will probably also very much enjoy the songs "Sex Type Thing", "Dead and Bloated", and "Plush", which holds special meaning for me.:)
DeleteYou have probably already completed writing your "harrowing scenes", but hope you enjoy those songs, anyway.:) The song "Creep" pairs well with wine, while unwinding at the end of the day.:)
DeleteNorth, check out Ollie Mathews on youtube. There are many many similar stories there. Listening to them, you can spot the patterns pretty easily.
Delete"When I resist the socio, he sulks because he lost a game. " It's actually that he is afraid of abandonment. Not so much about a game.
DeleteIt's no so much about predator/prey. I think this is the way sociopaths & narcs sees himself. But in reality it's much more like interacting with a 6 year old.
The problem with this blog is, that people here do not like so confront reality. Defences are up & high. So most of these people just try to rationalize things like they are superhumans & in control etc. When the reality is completely opposite. They are afraid of losing control, and they have extremely low self esteem.
There is no way to "heal" or "save" these people, the only method is to get as far as you can. As exposure to this type of interaction damages people, as people adapt to it. And adapting to completely sick interaction is not a good thing.
But again, listen to Ollie Mathews in youtube. It's the best source of information, as he is currently reading people's personal stories. And understanding the patterns of behavior is important.
"Dig a bit and we all bleed red."
Delete"Penetrate the heart of just one drop of water, and you will be flooded by a hundred oceans." M.S.
Keeping some mental "piercing" ("knife in hand") and true transcendence in mind, how would you interpret these words, Mr. Hyde? ;)
Parnasse-I love great quotes, and the one you shared above.:) What is the "M.S." short for?
Delete@Anon 3:47 PM
DeleteThanks for your comments. I'm watching one of videos and it's just painful. I'm so glad to be gone and to be healing. So glad.
Wow.
^ I mean divorced from the narcissist.
Deletei'm a schizoid and i don't see individuality until i talk to a person for a bit.
ReplyDeletebut really, there aren't too many actual individuals anymore are there? hello..personality anyone? hello? nah, they're all the same anyways. bunch of dumb boring followers. maybe that's why it's so hard to see individuals, because they all try so hard to act like each other.
Have de Sade been properly understood? His books seem to "simmer" with deeply psychopathic people using "endless catalogues of S/M sex" as some sort of "excuse" for behaving without limits or laws? Their behavior seem to be about an "existential rebellion" where the christian God is the father they relish to "disobey"..?
ReplyDeletede Sade perhaps also should be understood as the most fearsome of Scorpio beings: "bursting" with mercurial über-intellect & still so very clearly in that "dark & destructive drawer" due to moon influence..?
DeleteI definitely think there's a stage where people stop being treated as individuals. I wouldn't say they lose individuality in that they become part of oneself, but more like they become objects and are treated in a distinctly different manner than one would treat individuals.
ReplyDeleteIt happens to me sometimes when exhaustion and annoying customers cause me to drop the mask.
Hi Scarlet,
DeleteIf I'm driving in a tired, excited or hurried state, I can be quite like this too. I consider the cars as obstacles and readily yell at them or vent my frustration. I don't think of the drivers as people, I only consider the cars as being in my way. I am perfectly aware I am doing this and sometimes laugh at myself.
Is this a little like what you mean? I imagine everyone enters this state every now and then, especially when physical demands are pressing.
I think you've drawn a key distinction between objectifying others and absorbing others into an understanding of self.
How lame everywhere (-_-)
ReplyDeleteWhy the world not ending and why jesus, from your lineage not coming back?
Deceived by a group of socios so hard :( *sigh*
No one cares shit about me and i really just think all the world only should think one thing my health. Mine! Me me me me my health only my mine me
Me
Me
Me
Mine
But too late allreaady :((
I am helpless and yet thinking it is your duty to take care of me :'(
They are going to cut my throat...
ReplyDeleteAnd i am his ^^
ReplyDeleteWell, the first terror attack here is going to take place in New Orleans.
ReplyDeleteA bunch of this refugee scum has been moved there.
It's a good location. Lots of open air resturants with sitting ducks.
Lots of disgruntled helpers.
If a male sociopath has a wife and kids and his entire family were killed in an accident like a car wreck , would he be able to feel grief to the point to where he would cry alone and truly miss them or is the feeling and emotion of grief just not there ? Would the sociopath be devastated or just simply brush it off and move on . I'm an empath and just got out of a relationship with a sociopath and I'm trying to gain as much knowledge and understanding as possible . I need the brutal honesty and cold truth please .
ReplyDelete"Sociopaths cry for the same reason they do anything: to manipulate."
DeleteSo what would even be the point of having a wife and children to a sociopath ? It seems like it would just be extra work and a hassle if they couldn't get emotionally attached to them.
DeletePerhaps his wife has something that makes it worthwhile. All relationships to a sociopath are business transactions, and if a sociopath is making an effort to maintain a relationship it is because they're getting the better end of the bargain.
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