One interesting thing about law school is learning what does it mean for something to have caused something else. We talk about it in different ways, the "but for" cause, the last clear chance, and we hear crazy hypotheticals like someone who has been pushed off a 100 story building, but as they are falling they get shot dead by someone on the 50th story and who is the one who caused the death (the shooter, the pusher gets off on attempted murder although they still get to benefit from the result they were seeking, i.e. death).
I thought this comment from an older post was an interesting analysis of the harm that sociopaths really cause in relationships:
I just thought of something that nobody here seems to have pointed out. Sociopaths are human, and like any relationship with a human it depends on attraction, chemistry, compatibility, shared interests, etc. Some people who are burned in these relationships where there was constant fighting, etc., probably would have had bad relationships with the person anyway, even if they didn't have this condition, due to lack of other things that would keep the relationship together.
I'm sure there are sociopaths who have longterm relationships that aren't that bad. I'm not saying their behaviour is easy to deal with, but if you think of it as a sort of disability, there are all sorts of people dating others who have various kinds of disabilities. I'm sure also a lot of sociopaths might really like their partner or care about them to the extent they are able to and it's probably really hard for them to go against their nature to try to be someone they are not, to please another person. I think it must be exhausting to have to constantly act and pretend for the benefit of others and know you will never be loved and accepted if you let the mask slip and just be who you really are. Also not all sociopaths have this disorder to the same extent. Not every one of them is violent or commit crimes. I think you'd have to look at the quality of your relationship and interactions with the person as an individual and take it case by case. One size doesn't fit all.
I thought this comment from an older post was an interesting analysis of the harm that sociopaths really cause in relationships:
I just thought of something that nobody here seems to have pointed out. Sociopaths are human, and like any relationship with a human it depends on attraction, chemistry, compatibility, shared interests, etc. Some people who are burned in these relationships where there was constant fighting, etc., probably would have had bad relationships with the person anyway, even if they didn't have this condition, due to lack of other things that would keep the relationship together.
I'm sure there are sociopaths who have longterm relationships that aren't that bad. I'm not saying their behaviour is easy to deal with, but if you think of it as a sort of disability, there are all sorts of people dating others who have various kinds of disabilities. I'm sure also a lot of sociopaths might really like their partner or care about them to the extent they are able to and it's probably really hard for them to go against their nature to try to be someone they are not, to please another person. I think it must be exhausting to have to constantly act and pretend for the benefit of others and know you will never be loved and accepted if you let the mask slip and just be who you really are. Also not all sociopaths have this disorder to the same extent. Not every one of them is violent or commit crimes. I think you'd have to look at the quality of your relationship and interactions with the person as an individual and take it case by case. One size doesn't fit all.
Maintaining long term romantic relationships has certainly been something I haven't excelled at; my two most serious relationships so far have lasted no longer then three to four months. My violent impulses and behavior is negligible (there have been times I've snapped, but I dislike that greatly and would rather act violently if it served some greater purpose with a feasible direct benefit to be gained), and my criminal activity for the most part goes smoothly and without any undesired retribution from others or the criminal justice system. I do what I believe to be my best effort to curb my own destructive behavior so that I might have better quality in the relationships I pursue with others. It does seem to be a chore to work so hard to maintain a acceptable facade that pleases my object of desire. It would be so convenient if I could simply peel the mask off and have my lover acknowledge and accept every facet of me without passing the wrong kind of judgement.
ReplyDeleteMy first romantic relationship fell through in the end because I couldn't see myself with him in the long term because or paths in life seemed like they were clearly splitting apart and going different ways. I apparently failed to express this to him in a way that was properly empathetic; after I had ended the relationship, he was extremely heartbroken by my callous way of abruptly ending a relationship that appeared to him to be true love. I had him wrapped ever so tightly around my finger that he thought I was his one true love, but I so quickly discarded him like a used paper napkin.
My second relationship with a woman seemed promising. Beautiful like an earthy goddess, witty and thoughtful. I thought things could be different, that I wouldn't make the sane mistakes with my previous relationship and that my relationship with her would be beneficial and sustainable for both of us. She broke down after sometime, questioning the validity of my love for her and even eventually becoming suicidal. I even attempted to cognitively empathize with her to change her emotional state to a healthier one I could tolerate but it was to no avail. I dropped that relationship like a hot coal.
As of now I'm single and will probably remain so for the time being, until someone else catches my fancy at least. I try to look for individuals now with personality traits that will be better in sync with my own; high quality of confidence and self esteem that isn't easily undermind, strong emotional resilience, an open mindset, etc.. I keep looking for a potential life partner, but I don't make it a definite necessary goal to achieve. If I happen to come across someone who sticks around for a while, it's just a bonus to me.
ESTP Sociopath
ESTP Sociopath-How did you become aware of your sociopathy, and at what age? Do you know other sociopaths? You mentioned that being a sociopath is an "interesting burden". Why is it a burden?
DeleteESTP Sociopath-Also, what is "the life you need to live"? Were you not already living it? If not, why?
DeleteESTP Sociopath-Can I call you ESTP, for short?
DeleteAll Sociopaths/Psychopaths-Do you know other sociopaths/psychopaths? If so, how do you know they are sociopaths/psychopaths? Is it instinctual? Is it behavior, either immediately, or over time? If you do know others, do you choose to interact with them, or avoid them? I'm curious if it's like a "birds of a feather flock together" type of thing, or the exact opposite?
DeleteI'm a male in my early twenties and I haven't met too many people with this PD. Surprisingly enough, I know more female sociopaths than male. Truthfully, I'm not typically fond of them because we always end up trying to slit the others throat when it comes to status. I only associate with female psychopaths for the amazing sex. It's much more vulgar and enjoyable. As for how I notice them, it's just simple observation of their behavior. I will witness them engaging with someone the same way I would and once I confront them they always prove me right. The male sociopaths I know are much easier to get along with because we usually compliment each other's strengths.
DeleteESTP I wonder why you need to boast about your ability to make people see thru you so quickly. Only after a few months the "relationship" ends up breaking and you tell yourself "I'm brilliant and they're pathetic." Why I wonder you have to advertise your exploits if you're so confident. So confident that I hide behind an anonymous title boasting about my victories with no way if proving any of it.
DeleteAs an empath who almost fell for one such Mr. Confident I find such talk particularly disgusting. We don't fall for your pseudo confidence or conceit - we like the person you use to manipulate us and we end feeling terrible that you are oblivious to your own true potential. It is painful to see people you care for destroy themselves and yes, it also hurts to be used, but we get over it.
BTW this is *arrogance* for those of you who love accusing me of it - what this delusional clown wrote above.
"The male sociopaths I know are much easier to get along with because we usually compliment each other's strengths."
DeleteLOL you mean get along fine because you all repeat and thereby reinforce the lie "Our weakness and deception is a strength."
I love genuineness not because it's easy to exploit but because 1) it's a sign of courage which I find attractive, 2) you know what your getting yourself into - no BS. Psychos do the opposite but using our terms "we're so confident we have to feign it and lie and put up a mask otherwise our confidence would literally drown you all." Just saying the truth is empowering and makes you genuinely confident and respected.
Delete"Only after a few months the "relationship" ends up breaking and you tell yourself "I'm brilliant and they're pathetic."
DeleteHow flattering you would think that way. I admired and adored the individuals that I spent so much time with, but I do not regard them as pathetic. They simply had more room to grow and I saw that it was necessary to part ways with them in order for them to be better people, because any further development wasn't going to happen while they remained my lover; I'm a driving force of destruction, a tsunami they couldn't learn to better surf upon.
ESTP Sociopath
Thank you for your responses, "I Am Colossus" and "ESTP Sociopath".:)
DeleteESTP there's growth and then there's regression. Sociopaths and psychopaths use "growth" when they mean (knowingly or not) regression. Think about it if you can - you folks use ALL terms in a manner that is opposite of the original term.
DeleteIt is interesting you would choose to interpret my choice of words that way, but they were sincere and purely earnest. Perhaps the men and women I choose to pursue romantically don't take our relationship as a learning experience, and remain resentful and full of hatred. I've met with my past romances sometime after having been with them. They seem to be moving on in the world and even speak with me warmly. I think they have grown to appreciate the time we had together and have developed a different outlook on life because of their experience with me. They managed to turn it into a catalyst for positive change and became stronger individuals instead of letting it crush them.
DeleteESTP Sociopath
"All Sociopaths/Psychopaths-Do you know other sociopaths/psychopaths? If so, how do you know they are sociopaths/psychopaths? Is it instinctual? Is it behavior, either immediately, or over time? If you do know others, do you choose to interact with them, or avoid them? I'm curious if it's like a "birds of a feather flock together" type of thing, or the exact opposite?"
DeleteI only know one other sociopath intimately (very intimately) and I have more feeling for her than anyone else I've ever known. We just click, even when we're just sitting around there's a feeling of closeness. It's that we both know each other's natures. No masks, no acting, just two people together.
As for how I spot others - it's in the eyes. When I see another socio and we look each other in the eyes there's something there, an acknowledgement but also an amusement. It's like we both know and are laughing at the ones around us who can't figure it out.
Generally though those other socios are patients at my pharmacy so my interaction with them is strictly limited.
ESTP:
DeleteYes people forget or overlook or fall prey to your charms - good for you and bad for them. I speak warmly to people who are screwing me while they're screwing and even after but I don't pretend like the truth doesn't matter. Hell I'd even help the sociopaths that screwed me if they needed it but I won't pretend to be on good terms with them just because I'm nice enough for speak warmly or be helpful. I have self-respect and integrity - if a person doesn't have the courage to own up to their wrongdoings than I'd rather lose out on a "learning" experience (which is actually another opportunity for the socio to play his part on you).
I have no hatred for the sociopaths that screwed me - only pity. Hell I even miss one of them, even now, despite the fact that I was treated like a nobody. Fortunately I've regained my mind (and more). I wish them well (cure from their madness) but I've humiliated myself enough (in ignorance and trauma) trying to "learn" from the relationship.
Apart from the lies it's extraordinarily telling how incapable sociopaths are of simply understanding what you tell them.
And ESTP I'm starting to doubt you're story. People who've suffered thru real trauma don't boast about the trauma they cause others, let alone defend it so staunchly. No matter, your day will come and I'd love to see how quickly you "move on." I'd love to see such people call me narcissistic then.
DeleteThe only growth you're causing in your victims is apathy. That's not growth you're killing their humanity and boasting about it by saying your exploits result in benefit to them too. It's really very sickening how you twist reality and defend your sadistic behavior. Oh wait nevermind that's just your "strength" and "confidence" - avoiding truth and responsibility.
DeleteI didn't want to say this but God is my witness if I were a sociopath I would not care to spend two minutes in the company of the people who I was hurt by. I had my moments when I was truly apathetic and I thought "wow you were an idiot to give any attention to xyz" - it's ironic because if they got me to turn into a minion like them I'd have no use for them. Two in particular stand out - I treated them well and they got over heads. Lol isn't that something. Like I said it isn't always easy to submit to God but the Truth is what it is - I'd be a moron to pretend otherwise.
DeleteYou're free to interpret my story, actions, and intentions as you see fit. I'm not at all bothered by it, but curious. It is interesting to see such an assessment from a perspective like yours, and one that I try to cognitively understand from the angle you're coming from, but I don't have to accept it.
DeleteESTP Sociopath
ESTP Sociopath-What do you do when you "snap" in relationships? Have you begun a relationship without "the mask", to see if they will acknowledge and accept you, for who you are? If not, why not? Was your male partner "wrapped around your finger" in only a matter of months? Was your female partner broken down and suicidal, in only a matter of months, as well?
DeleteESTP Sociopath-What do you think is the origin of your "destructive behavior"? Is it innate?
DeleteI Am Colossus-Sex with sociopaths is definitely amazing.:)
DeleteScarlet-Thank you, for your response.:) That is wonderful, that you have a significant other that you click with, are close to, and that you understand each other!!! I believe it is best to be yourself in a relationship-without masks, without acting. Have you had relationships with other sociopaths before? Do you find it is easier to have a relationship with another sociopath, as opposed to a non-sociopath? Thank you for letting me know, how you recognize other sociopaths-it is definitely "in the eyes". "Inside jokes" are always amusing, aren't they? It's fun to share something with another, that no one else knows.:)
DeleteI may of crossed paths with another sociopath once; I was at a church dinner and she was serving food there. Our eyes met, and her piercing gaze met mine. We shared a knowing smile and that was it.
DeleteESTP Sociopath
ESTP Sociopath-Church dinner-classic.:) I know the "piercing gaze" and "knowing smile".:) You didn't hit on her? Was she not "hot"?
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-downsides-of-being-clever
ReplyDeleteI find this to be true. There's really only two ways to be "happy" if you're intelligent enough to know how the world works: submission to God or to yourself (aka psychopathy). The former requires much patience, perseverence and courage because it never starts off as "easy." You're tried and tested in your ethics and the more intelligent you are the more you must sacrifice. If you make it, you are literally "set" forever. The latter starts off as bliss - independence, freedom and power are all yours. The road heads downhill from thereon and that's why as time goes by, you get more and more psychopathic.
" There's really only two ways to be "happy" if you're intelligent enough to know how the world works: submission to God or to yourself (aka psychopathy)."
DeleteTwo ways to be happy. Submission to God or to yourself.
Your black and white thinking lacks imagination.
Imagination is the supreme province of the gods, the god-spark that resides in creatures great and small. But it doesn't seem to exist equally in all creatures. Obviously. Sad to say.
Your philosphy lacks the wholeness of divinity, i.e, shades of gray. Diversity.
Best of luck with that. Polarized thinking comprises the very essence of cognitive dissonance.
Mr. Hyde
Are sociopaths completely incapable of engaging in a rational discourse? So far the only thing I've seen other than outright slander and insults is:
DeleteI say:
Cheating, lying and abusing is not good because it leads to pain, suffering and ultimately the destruction of civilization."
Socio says:
"You're shallow in your thinking."
OR
"You lack creativity and imagination."
OR
"I refuse to submit to your truth"
OR
"Everyone has their own truth"
* Quote some famous person's utterance without context *
I wonder if you lot ever sit back and think "so what's so different about me in comparison to lower mammals?" The answer: you're worse than your lower mammalian relatives. They live purely naturally - meeting their bodily needs and that's it. Humans are endowed with a higher intellect and an understanding of ethics which we can use to outgrow our mammalian origins. Psychos do the opposite: they use their higher faculties to become lower than other primates. No other species abuses its other members for "power."
Jonaid at 6:05
DeleteAt least half of your challengers have actually been empaths! And they haven't been disagreeing that "Cheating, lying and abusing is not good because it leads to pain, suffering and ultimately the destruction of civilization", they've been trying to point out that you are attacking people who've done nothing to you. You are using strangers as a punchbag to vent your bitterness - because you haven't satisfactorily vented it at those that hurt you. You are 'balancing the books' by attacking different people, who are not trying to hurt you.
"Sociopaths" are as different from one another as "we" are. The people you are attacking en masse do not exist. Only individuals exist. I'm a non-sociopath who's just had a taste of what it's like not to be treated as an individual, but generalised about as if you know all about me - just because I'm at this website. It might as well be called scapegoats.com. And you've just blamed sociopathy, and everyone else here, for something I said! (and I score in the bottom 5% on 'psychopathy' tests). THIS is why you have been accused of shallowness, over-simplification, black and white thinking. Everyone here is individually having a version of the experience I've just described, or witnessing it happening. We're not 'a group'. We're all just random unknown individuals. The only thing we do all have in common is that none of us are the people who hurt you. This is one of the dangers of labels and label mentality. It isn't real life.
If you feel attacked because I call psychopathy by its real name (evil) than you're likely not an empath.
DeleteYou at best made it partway through pre-med, an area of study which leaves psychoanalysis to their better-suited _psychologist_ counterparts. From there your basic understanding of biology leaves a lot to be desired in terms of affirming your points. Lower mammals need to abuse others within their social circles for survival. Chickens have a so aptly named pecking order, all sorts of pack hunting carnivores are forced to show strength over their counterparts, and even our closely related primate friends use displays of strength to display suitability over other members of their species.
DeleteThe worst part in all this is that you use isolated, personal, and frankly unconfirmed bias in your argument against psychopathy. I'm not too sure you fully comprehend that psychopathy isn't the embodiment of all evil in human form. All humans have, from a relative standpoint, a similar capability to do bad. Go blame someone else, or come back with a greater understanding before you go peddling these partial thoughts and assumptions.
This is to elaborate on my mention of pre-med study:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonaid87
This is to locate his email should anyone need to contact Jonaid under regular business hours so he may reply to anyone's enquiries at his earliest convenience:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r2-m124-wty/activity-feed
It would have saved you a lot of time if you'd just asked for my info.
DeleteI came across a few quotes that I love, and thought I would share them, since we are all looking at a brand new year!!! "If you have made mistakes, there is always another chance for you. You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down." -Mary Pickford. Also-"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt.
ReplyDeleteThat should've been "...nor defeat". My apologies...
ReplyDeleteIn regard to the Theodore Roosevelt poem for socios and non-socios alike: we dare mighty things, sometimes we win and sometimes we lose, and sometimes we enjoy it and sometimes we suffer. It is better than living "in the grey twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat", in my opinion. Anyone else?
ReplyDeleteThe sky is coloured too in different regions beyond competition. In these realms, all experiences are datapoints, and richness extends in all avenues we choose to explore.
DeleteSo yes! Dare mighty things and flow with experience. Grasp at nothing, because there is always better ahead.
Yours is the earth and everything in it ~ Kipling
" It is better than living "in the grey twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat", in my opinion."
DeleteCan't argue with that.
The earth belongs to everything in it. Socios and non-socios alike.
Mr. Hyde
North-I love that!!! "Grasp at nothing, because there is always better ahead." SO TRUE!!! That is the perfect "motto", for the new year ahead!!!
DeleteGreat minds think alike, Mr. Hyde!!! It's good to have you back.:) I would have inquired about you, but knew I would be mocked as "your fan", even though I am one, and I should not let that deter me.:) Do you celebrate Christmas? How is Beastie Boy?
DeleteThank you, Anon. I would never mock you for being 'my' fan. :D
DeleteI celebrate Xmas, as the rebirth season.
BB is Ok. Recovering. He decided to fly off the balcony and discovered gravity. A cut lip, bruised ego and swollen nose is all he suffered. He's back to demanding everything. Right now.
How are you? What music are you shaking to these days?
Mr. Hyde
Mr. Hyde-I know you would never mock me, for being your fan.:) I hope you enjoyed celebrating the Rebirth Season!!! I am sorry to hear about BB, but glad he is recovering!!! Was he after prey??? I am glad, he wasn't hurt worse!!! He could've gotten a broken leg, and had to have a cast on it, which cats HATE!!! It's good he has you, to take care of him.:) I'm sure he is highly intelligent, and is "taking advantage of this opportunity", to have you spoil him.:) I am well-thank you for asking.:) It's funny you ask-I was just recommending to ESTP Sociopath, the band "Kings of Leon"!!! North and I were also talking about their song "Sex on Fire".:) Her socio played that song for her during sex, and it happens to be the song, that made me LOVE THAT BAND!!! If you listen to it, let me know if you like it.:)
DeleteMr. Hyde-I just re-read North's posts, and her socio played that song for her, when they were first together. I don't know if it was during sex or not, but it would be a great song to have sex to, in my opinion.:)
DeleteHaha, I'm busy with family and a bit behind on my posts... Nah, he played it after we made out in his car for the first time! It was a bit strange, actually. But he was always a little odd.
DeleteI do love Charmer by Kings of Leon :) He's sounding all stressed... It's awesome.
North-You might also love their song "Beautiful War".:)
Delete...and "The End", "Use Somebody"...
Delete"The belonging you seek is not behind you but ahead" ~ Maz (Star Wars - The Force Awakens)
ReplyDeleteHis strange perspective. We did talk about philosophy once. He said something, I can't recall it now. I didn't disagree - his frame of reference was so different, though, his framing of the problem... I laughed gently as if he were a child.
I wish I had listened then. I feel I have lost something very valuable.
He hasn't responded to my invitation to a broader perspective. It feels a little more like any regular sort of change this time. But I have no words, except those of Shams Tabrizi:
"Blessing is excess, so to speak, an excess of everything. Don't be content with being a faqih (religious scholar), say I want more – more than being a Sufi (a mystic), more than being a mystic – more than each thing that comes before you."
There are many more mysteries on the road before me, if only I can open my ears to see them and ears to hear them.
North-I love that quote, too!!! "The belonging you seek is not behind you but ahead". SO TRUE, ONCE AGAIN!!!! Another "PERFECT MOTTO", for the new year ahead!!!
DeleteNorth, how long has it been since you and your ex parted ways?
DeleteOver the past few days, I caught up with SW a bit, and in particular read quite a few of your posts. You have a very positive attitude towards your socio ex. Have you thought that perhaps it is a bit too positive? I understand very well the energy that comes with being close to a sociopath. It is great that you are expanding it in ways that make you grow, but it looks to me like you also need to heal. I am not sure you are allowing yourself to heal. Have you grieved yet? Have you reconciled yourself with the fact that nothing will ever happen again with your ex? That it should not? Not even a conversation. He won't give it to you because that is what you want. His way of keeping you on his hook. Or perhaps he has moved on and could not care less. Sociopaths are very good at closing doors.
Even if you do have a conversation with him I bet you will not feel satisfied. Most likely you will feel even more frustrated. He will not give you closure. You have to find closure by yourself. Perhaps write questions that you would like him to answer. That might help. And possible answer them. Answer those yourself with sociopathic, rational thinking. And answer those also as you would like them to be answered. Of course if what you want to know is his past, that won't help.
You broke his trust by sending documents to his wife. You will not be able to fix it. Trust is difficult for anybody to give. Trust is excruciatingly difficult for a sociopath to give.
You need closure. I think this is why you participate on this site. Sending the letters to the wife was most likely good start towards closure. You got angry. First step towards healing. But you turned it into a game. You thought the restraining order was another way of staying in his life. More to the point, you thought that was his way of keeping you in his for a bit longer. Are you sure?
I am being harsh. But you need to get him out of your head. Get mad, sistah. Get mad at this post if it helps. One interesting part is that if you had not made the effort of understanding his sociopathic mind, you would have dropped the guy long ago. Starting discovering it was like discovering alien on earth, wasn't it? And now you are hooked. You want to know more. If you did not, you would be on psychopathfree, and not here on sociopaphworld.
Thanks OldAndWise.
DeleteIt's true I'd have forgotten about him had a sucked the lolly he gave me.
There are so many threads of change and healing for me here. And yes, I want closure now. It feels more like a normal grief and it's okay.
I visited the arboretum today, walked through the bonsai garden. I don't know anything about bonsai - what struck me was the patience. It's an art that lives with the artist for decades. Patient tending, slow shaping.
He damaged me in places I didn't know existed in my soul. Yes, I am often still angry. But more than the anger I am learning to listen to myself. I'm learning to care for myself. I enjoy the new places.
I ran this morning and meditated by a trail in the nature reserve. Before returning home I sat and listened to myself. I want to be known by someone - just as I told him, I want a companion. But first, and most importantly, I want to hear myself. And this takes time. It is a gentle and deliberate process.
He is one part of that. There are many things the rational part of my mind knows... Really, that it predicts. But the deeper parts take time to convince. This is why I act from my feelings - because even though it might hurt, I never regret honouring them, and those deeper parts learn from experience.
Now, what he does no longer matters. Yes, I would like to explore with him but it's increasingly clear that he won't. Where there are discussions of sociopaths opening up to neurotypicals, yes, I do get a little emotional and wonder what might be. But this is less painful for me than it used to be... because I am slowly accepting what I have in place of the possibilities.
I stopped seeing my psychologist because he couldn't understand or help me. I stopped writing on INTJf because I exhausted that road. I did read those victims' sites got a while but didn't find a helpful resonance. I like M.E.'s posts because she is journeying and her interests are somewhat similar. I feel here at least my mind has companions while I heal my own heart.
I am always choosing each day, learning to develop intimacy. I've never really had it. Again, this is a very, very slow process of cultivating friendships - learned trust rather than quick attachments.
Maybe there are better ways to heal. I don't know. I do know my way makes very little sense to anyone but me. But we are all unique, with unique experiences to deal with.
Tbc
Thanks again. I don't write as much about my emotional journey as I do my intellectual one. Thanks for presenting a mirror.
DeleteI have written some very personal things here lately. Who else could understand them? This is my way of overtly grieving and I've been more ready to do that since the Viber thing. Because that's what I've wanted for over a year now - to invite him to that conversation. And I acted when I saw the opportunity to do so. So yes, this is a very natural process, or at least feels it: I'm just not getting what I want. No big deal, that happens all the time in life.
Yes, sending that letter was crazy powerful for me. That changed me.
Sorry, I can't quote properly on my phone... Did I think it was his way of keeping me in his life? I didn't know beforehand, but the look in his eyes that day - he was inviting me both before and after the conference. And less than 2 months after that, there he was touching me, mimicking me, inviting me with his eyes. I walked away.
I think calling it a game from my side is a bit too simplistic. I was always exploring myself and what I wanted at the time. When I actually see him, my body refuses to submit - if I were playing, I would submit and fall into his arms. But I don't do it, I can't. I want a conversation on equal terms and sure enough, every datapoint I have says it won't happen. So that's what I'm grieving.
In the playground today, I pushed my sons and nephews on a huge net swing. Pushed them so high, they were flying. They couldn't get enough of it. Higher than any other parent. My father is an ISTP narcissist... I mean he is completely wild, with no concept of risk. I spent my childhood justifying my existence to this exceptional, impossible man. An ISFP sociopath was still not a match for that cadence. What is *my* cadence? Can I slow down? Do I want to? I don't know. There are lots of ways in which I'm finding my own path. I bought and renovated my own apartment this month, I've quit rugby, I'm trying new things at work, Aikido, training, my philosophy degree... There are lots of tears and they are not my food, but my change. I know my brain is changing with those tears. Those tears are for me. And remember I am also healing from an abusive marriage of 11 years in which I was raped and diminished and basically treated the way Jonaid treats posters here. I used to argue and then gave up and checked out.
Tbc
You have made many observations that are right. And I appreciate your 'harshness'. It's a good reflection and it helps. The timeline is:
DeleteRelationship ended: 18 months ago
Letter: 16 months
He tried again: 15 months
I told him I thought he was a sociopath and that I'd sent the letter: 15 months
Some baiting from him / ignoring from me:13 months (also left my narc husband at this time)
I called and left 2 messages: 12 months
Sent text asking for adventure: 11 months
Court conference: 10 months
His attempt to reach me: 8 months
Lots of little sightings - smiles and waves, he tested me: 8 - 5 months
He kissed me (faire la bise) at his work farewell: 4 months
I left a note on his car saying it was nice seeing him around and that he could contact me if he felt like it: 5 months
After that, he has avoided me but we still saw each other sometimes in the car park.
About 2 months ago I saw him in a different CBD, unexpectedly, and sent him the Viber messages. He read them a number of times but after we were online at the same time, he stopped sharing his online status and after I sent a link to one of my comments here, then asked if I could call him, he deactivated his Viber account.
So he's further away at work and that gives me more space. But I don't resist the impulses I have and I allow their energy to burn out.
It feels more and more like a distant dream. I'm on leave now and it's a good time for me to be still and to be more of a companion to myself. this feels very important. I'm also finally reconnecting with my family.
Thanks for the opportunity to talk.
North, I really enjoyed reading you, and specially loved this part: "There are many things the rational part of my mind knows... Really, that it predicts. But the deeper parts take time to convince. This is why I act from my feelings - because even though it might hurt, I never regret honouring them, and those deeper parts learn from experience."
DeleteUmm maybe you're just in love with the guy. I mean real love - not what psychos do. If that's the case, you need to do undo your own psychopathy. Free yourself. Just a thought - no need to lash out on me now.
DeleteThanks noelia :)
DeleteESTP Sociopath-Your quote: "I'm a driving force of destruction, a tsunami they couldn't learn to better surf upon", reminded me of the song "The Face" by King of Leon.:) It's a good listen, while you smoke out.:)
ReplyDelete...that's "Kings of Leon".:)
DeleteTheir song "Sex on Fire", is another good listen.:)
DeleteIn fact, all of their albums and songs ROCK!!!
DeleteThe lead singer's wife is a VS model.:) He has quite the muse to inspire his music.:)
DeleteHe played Sex on Fire for me at the start.
DeleteBastard :p. His sex was crazy good.
North-NO WAY!!! Did he really play "Sex on Fire" for you, at the start??? It's a HOT SONG, and AWESOME TO HAVE SEX TO!!! I bet his sex was CRAZY GOOD!!! You could just "feel" the "animal magnetism", couldn't you???
ReplyDeleteGod, yes, even after we broke up he exuded an engulfing sexual energy.
DeleteThe sex was like cocaine. I am not kidding. He knew what to do with his 'willy' (that's what called it.) It's surprising how few men actually do know what to do with it.
P.S. North-That was the song, that made me "fall in love" with the band Kings of Leon!!! Loved them ever since!!!
ReplyDeletePSS North-I got to see Kings of Leon in concert!!! It was AWESOME!!! The band is HOT!!! They are all related, and the lead singer's voice really "does it for me"!!! HA!!! LOL!!! I love to hear men's voices strain, when they sing.:)
ReplyDeleteIdeas leave not their source. Projection makes perception.
ReplyDeletePsychopaths do not like other psychopaths. They avoid each other. They cannot stand each other. If there is one thing a socio hate its meeting scumbags trying to control conversations with "patronizing talk" or "subduing" rude remarks & similar things. Socios can be kings in a court filled with empaths. This court NEVER contains other socios. How can people even imagine this?
ReplyDeleteThank you, for your response.:) I would imagine two socios together, would be like two "Alphas" together. It could be really good, or it could be really bad. "I Am Colossus" and "Scarlet" say they do well with other socios. Does anyone have any more thoughts on this???
ReplyDeleteIn the name of God, The All-Merciful, The Compassionate.
ReplyDelete"By the fig and the olive,
By Mount Sinai,
And by this land made safe;
Surely We created man of the best stature
Then we reduced him to the lowest of the low,
Save those who believe and do good works, and theirs is
a reward unfailing.
So who henceforth will give the lie to thee about the
judgment?
Is not God the most conclusive of all judges?"
Qur'an Chapter 95: The Fig
All Sociopaths/Psychopaths-I have a question, in regard to one of M.E.'s previous posts. It was the post with homocidal statistics. It showed that men committed 90.5% of murders. Do you think the percentage would be the same amongst the sociopathic/psychopathic population? Or, do you think that gender would play a much smaller role, and the percentages would be more 50/50???
ReplyDeleteAlso, I do not know the statistics on sexuality, amongst the general population. I would imagine that the majority are heterosexual, with smaller percentages of bisexuality and homosexuality. Do you think that the percentages would be similar amongst the sociopathic/psychopathic population? Or, do you think percentages would be closer to 33/33/33???
ReplyDeleteI know I have a very small sample size to go by, but it seems like sociopaths would be more opportunistic than really fixed in one sexuality. For ex. I tell people I like women, but I've dated a guy now and then who seemed interesting. I don't feel I'm confined to one category or the other.
DeleteThis is very true, speaking for myself. I more often then not romantically pursue people of either sex on a as convenient basis; sometimes it's for the short term goal of dominating them under the covers in bed, or usually to hold a position of power over my object of desire and perhaps because I can use them as a tool for some greater purpose; I could certainly call myself an "equal opportunist."
DeleteESTP Sociopath
Thank you for your responses, Scarlet and ESTP.:)
DeleteScarlet-Is it the same for your SO???
DeleteI've also read that women are generally a lot more fluid in their sexuality than males. I've never been with a woman but have flirted on and off with a girl a played rugby with for years and it's nice.
Delete"Scarlet-Is it the same for your SO???"
Deleteyou know, I never really talked to her about it. She's only had one previous relationship (with a woman) and never mentions finding anyone we meet attractive. So I can't really say what her preferences are.
Thanks for responding, Scarlet.:)
DeleteHomicide is a psychopathic activity. If an "empath" kills without any right they do so in a temporary state of mind that is very much "psychopathic." I bet brain scans would not show an abundance of empathy in the heads when they committed the act.
ReplyDelete...and "Beautiful War", and "The End"...
ReplyDelete...and "Use Somebody...
ReplyDelete...the lead singer, Caleb Followill, IS SO HOT!!!
ReplyDeleteOops!!! I replied in the wrong spot-my bad!!! Those were Kings of Leon songs, I was recommending to North.:)
ReplyDeleteBeautiful war was good, interesting clip.
DeleteDo you like the Killers? Somebody Told Me is a fave and Mr Brightside.
It is an interesting clip, isn't it? Perfect example of how non-socios can "act out", because of emotions. I do like "The Killers"!!! Mr. Brightside is an AWESOME SONG!!! I don't know if I've heard "Somebody Told Me"-I'll have to listen to it!!! P.S. I agree that women do seem to have more "fluid" sexuality, in general. I am heterosexual and have never been with a woman before, although I am not opposed to it. I have had female friends throughout my life, where that idea crossed my mind.:) It is fun to be a girl, and be able to flirt with men and women, isn't it???
Deletehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X4YK-DEkvcw
DeleteShot At The Night, by The Killers. I like to think that the handsome affluent man in the music video is a sociopath, taking the woman on a once in a lifetime ride through the night doing things she's never dared to do before.
ESTP Sociopath
North-I think I didn't end up being with my female friends, because I didn't want to "ruin" the friendship. I just listened to "Somebody Told Me", and I do love that one, too! I didn't know, what the title of that song was.:)
DeleteESTP Sociopath-"Shot At The Night", is a good song, too!!! Do you like to take people on "once in a lifetime rides through the night doing things they've never dared to do before"???
DeleteESTP Sociopath-Good thing the girl didn't run him down.:) VEGAS, BABY!!! LET'S KARAOKE!!!
DeleteI certainly do. I love to push people into trying new things which they might typically be afraid to do on their own initiative; the flashes of fear, shock, excitement, and happiness that I teased out of them gives me delicious satisfaction. It's all apart of the thrill of being the arbiter, to have control over, of the pain and pleasure I allow them to experience with me.
DeleteESTP Sociopath
North-PS on the "animal magnetism"-I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN!!! It is like cocaine, isn't it??? They get us hooked, and then we are like "little druggies"!!! Yes, they definitely know how to use their bodies!!! Why is it, that so many men don't know how??? Has anyone ever figured that out???
DeleteNorth-PSS-That just reminded me of the movie "Love & Other Drugs"!!! Sex, love, etc., are definitely as potent as drugs!!!
DeleteESTP Sociopath-How do you decide if someone gets pain, pleasure, or both???
DeleteNorth-Maybe our "theme song" should be "Love The Way You Lie" by Eminem, featuring Rihanna.:)
DeleteI play them like an instrument, plucking and strumming their heart strings in just all the right ways. I, the sociopath, am the musician, and with my lovers I want to hear the kind of power ballad I can coax out of them.
Deletehttp://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lcOxhH8N3Bo
ESTP Sociopath
ESTP Sociopath-I like that song.:) The video, too.:)
DeleteESTP-Can you really bring them to the point of suicide, in a matter of a few months???
DeletePS-If you can, you must be like the handsome/affluent guy, in the "Shot At The Night" video.:)
Delete...how about Guns N' Roses "November Rain"???
DeleteESTP Sociopath-Do they end up like Sinead O'Connor in "Nothing Compares 2U??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq2K4jHs92A
DeleteESTP-Or Tonic's "If You Could Only See". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfg6-4mBs6Y
DeleteNorth-You might like Staind's "Outside".:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVQpfoqsY8Q
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIs it possible for a sociopath to care enough about their husband or wife or even boyfriend or girlfriend enough not to cheat on them? If a sociopath doesn't truly care about anything then why cheat in the first place because it is just extra work and causes more trouble in their lives . What is the point of sex for a sociopath of they cannot become emotionally attached to someone ?
ReplyDelete"Is it possible for a sociopath to care enough about their husband or wife or even boyfriend or girlfriend enough not to cheat on them?"
DeleteSure. Maybe the thing a sociopath wants most is to get married and have kids. What if their spouse is everything they want? I don't consider it to be cheating if they both agree on an open relationship.
"What is the point of sex for a sociopath of they cannot become emotionally attached to someone ?"
To get off.
Your last line, was exactly what I was going to say, and I'm a non-socio!!!
ReplyDeleteSex is fun, and it feels good!!!
ReplyDeleteI have been married to an empath for some time now. Once I discovered my sociopathic tendencies and disclosed this to my wife, it has helped greatly. It is not easy to maintain a socio-empath relationship, though. Empaths cannot comprehend how we think and feel, and vise-versa.
ReplyDelete"I think it must be exhausting to have to constantly act and pretend for the benefit of others and know you will never be loved and accepted if you let the mask slip and just be who you really are."
I have been pondering the reference of a mask. While we may act differently around different people, in the interest of fitting in and pleasing others, we aren't really "pretending". We have many versions of "our self". I like to think of it as a transformation rather than a mask.
But some of this applies to my friendships outside of marriage. I have challenges keeping long term friendships. This is because these friends are offended or scared because they eventually see how easily we switch between personalities. They see our general apathy. They see us laugh at our loved ones' pain. (not to hurt our loved ones, but because we don't realize laughing will hurt them)
I tend to burn bridges or offend people to the point that eventually they stop hanging out with me. Occasionally I will test the waters with friends that have gained my trust. I will suggest the idea of sociopaths and observe their response. I wouldn't necessarily call it exhausting though...it is a way of life, a way of survival for me.
-Fellow Sociopath
"I think it must be exhausting to have to constantly act and pretend for the benefit of others and know you will never be loved and accepted if you let the mask slip and just be who you really are."
ReplyDeleteOh, it most definitely is. The blog author talks in her book about how people can benefit from the attentiveness of a sociopath because they learn the wants and needs of the other person so well. I think this applies to personal relationship too - I did this with these people and when it wasn't reciprocated in the long term relationships I've had, things went very bad and both thought I had lost my mind. These were very long term relationships - 16 and 11 years - and it is exhausting to hide so as to be accepted.
VA Lady