From a reader:
Hi, M.E.
I just read this article and was reminded of how socios seem to be very much into seduction.
Is this how you guys operate?
What do you guys look for in a "relationship"? Power over the other person? Access to resources (e.g. money, status, etc)?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/magazine/confessions-of-a-seduction-addict.html
From the link (oddly enough written by Elizabeth Gilbert, of Eat Pray Love fame, which just goes to show that anything can be normalized/mainstreamed? Or that people love redemption stories or something?):
Seduction is the art of coercing somebody to desire you, of orchestrating somebody else’s longings to suit your own hungry agenda. Seduction was never a casual sport for me; it was more like a heist, adrenalizing and urgent. I would plan the heist for months, scouting out the target, looking for unguarded entries. Then I would break into his deepest vault, steal all his emotional currency and spend it on myself.
If the man was already involved in a committed relationship, I knew that I didn’t need to be prettier or better than his existing girlfriend; I just needed to be different. (The novel doesn’t always win out over the familiar, mind you, but it often does.) The trick was to study the other woman and to become her opposite, thereby positioning myself to this man as a sparkling alternative to his regular life.
Soon enough, and sure enough, I might begin to see that man’s gaze toward me change from indifference, to friendship, to open desire. That’s what I was after: the telekinesis-like sensation of steadily dragging somebody’s fullest attention toward me and only me. My guilt about the other woman was no match for the intoxicating knowledge that — somewhere on the other side of town — somebody couldn’t sleep that night because he was thinking about me. If he needed to sneak out of his house after midnight in order to call, better still. That was power, but it was also affirmation. I was someone’s irresistible treasure. I loved that sensation, and I needed it, not sometimes, not even often, but always.
What do you all think? For me I think it is for that and also to create that physical high that your body rewards you for, the intoxication of infatuation. There's also a sense of intimacy about it. And what is intimacy if not a high degree of influence over another person?
Hi, M.E.
I just read this article and was reminded of how socios seem to be very much into seduction.
Is this how you guys operate?
What do you guys look for in a "relationship"? Power over the other person? Access to resources (e.g. money, status, etc)?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/magazine/confessions-of-a-seduction-addict.html
From the link (oddly enough written by Elizabeth Gilbert, of Eat Pray Love fame, which just goes to show that anything can be normalized/mainstreamed? Or that people love redemption stories or something?):
Seduction is the art of coercing somebody to desire you, of orchestrating somebody else’s longings to suit your own hungry agenda. Seduction was never a casual sport for me; it was more like a heist, adrenalizing and urgent. I would plan the heist for months, scouting out the target, looking for unguarded entries. Then I would break into his deepest vault, steal all his emotional currency and spend it on myself.
If the man was already involved in a committed relationship, I knew that I didn’t need to be prettier or better than his existing girlfriend; I just needed to be different. (The novel doesn’t always win out over the familiar, mind you, but it often does.) The trick was to study the other woman and to become her opposite, thereby positioning myself to this man as a sparkling alternative to his regular life.
Soon enough, and sure enough, I might begin to see that man’s gaze toward me change from indifference, to friendship, to open desire. That’s what I was after: the telekinesis-like sensation of steadily dragging somebody’s fullest attention toward me and only me. My guilt about the other woman was no match for the intoxicating knowledge that — somewhere on the other side of town — somebody couldn’t sleep that night because he was thinking about me. If he needed to sneak out of his house after midnight in order to call, better still. That was power, but it was also affirmation. I was someone’s irresistible treasure. I loved that sensation, and I needed it, not sometimes, not even often, but always.
What do you all think? For me I think it is for that and also to create that physical high that your body rewards you for, the intoxication of infatuation. There's also a sense of intimacy about it. And what is intimacy if not a high degree of influence over another person?
Drinking his satisfaction felt intimate.
ReplyDeleteBut intimacy for me is a shared journey. Ours was definitely not that.
******************* TO A *******************
Hi A,
Thanks for your reply. I value it the more as I like you a lot and respect you... and - if I may be frank - it's rare to get answers to personal questions from someone identifying as sociopathic. So I want to do you justice in this conversation! :)
"showed up for exams plastered, yet aced them." :D
Thanks for sharing the story of your dream and the resonance it had for you.
"I accept the prosthetic moral compass accorded to me by the New Testament, because mine is shattered. It never worked properly. And I still have a very hard time practicing what I preach in many areas- so I don't tend to preach much. :P"
And this is humility. Or perhaps it's pragmatism. But in Christendom, it would be called humility, and it's rare :D Very fucking rare.
"I do believe in the existence of evil, on account of some powerful anecdotal experiences."
Okay. I can understand that. My experience is the opposite and I might post separately later because this was thought-provoking.
I am an INTJ. We are the most scientific of the types and the least likely to believe in God. My Christian up-bringing failed to teach me effective ways to live, failed to develop a pragmatic understanding of the universe and instead - as Jonaid is doing - attempted to force evidence to fit a static model rather than evolving the model to handle datapoints. As I wrote to Jonaid, and as I have thought since my high school days, any overarching account of the truth ought to be able to handle evidence and provide the simplest explanation. Religion fails to do this for the reasons I have articulated in my many other posts, lol.
In your writing, I see fulfilled the hopes I had as a child, the hopes of being saved by grace. That may be why I asked about your experience. Your words are compelling; they resonate and I question... See, I offered my service to God from a young age... "Send me, Lord, I'll go." Lol. It's painful to think about... my Christian upbringing did me far more harm than my narc father. FIT IN THIS FUCKING BOX. I didn't fit and it took me far too long to smash the box.
So no. I don't think Christianity works for me.
"But I really dislike how many people who acknowledge its existence park their rational faculties at the door to hop aboard Fundie & Co.'s Judgement Train. :P"
DeleteThis was too much for me. I remember a massive anti-euthanasia campaign across the country and I don't think *anyone* switched their brain on. They simply spouted the propaganda.
People often listen to our friend's story and help them find solutions. How amazing does that feel? Rather than being told you have sinned or done something terrible, you have a collaborator or someone to just stand alongside while you solve your social problem. That's how it works best and this is what I mean by mercy triumphing over judgment. In my very personal experience, I haven't seen Christians don't do that.
"I think all of the atrocities in the world attest to the presence of evil."
Why? I think the universe is ambivalent to each and every one of us. This gives each of us far more agency, more power, to confront problems and develop solutions.
"Evil" doesn't explain anything. There's no progress, no way forward when it is used as an explanation - it's a pure dead end. With "evil", shame and guilt have free reign. You know from experience that shame and guilt are not necessary; what *works* is living sustainably within a community. So why don't we teach that? Your words often have this bent.
"Anti-social" is a much better label. It's factual. It opens the door to solutions.
I'm not saying we don't confront anti-social behaviour! Quite the contrary! If we want to live satisfying lives, our very biology calls out to us to protect each other. Very common with animals too (I was in a nature reserve this weekend :) )
No. There's no such thing as evil. Humans crash into each other. We are victims of victims of victims. And I am done being a victim. And I don't want to lash out like a wounded animal to damage others any longer either. I want better ways of living and I'm creating them.
"A personal encounter with the holy wasn't ultimately enough ot convince me. It did not satisfy my logical mind or propensity for ripping into and tearing apart every argument. (I'm an ENTP. I love to argue, even with myself.) So I researched the historical and archaeological underpinnings of the Bible extensively, and weighed them against the discrepancies, and was astonished by what I found- at how credible a document it is from antiquity, how faithfully it was reproduced over many generations, how so many prophecies written by several authors over the course of millenia came true in a historically verifiable manner. Once learned, my analytical mind could not disregard or dismiss those facts, and they humbled me."
I cannot doubt you did a thorough job with this.
I don't know. Of course, I can find a line of debate to take here but personal beliefs shouldn't (read: cannot fruitfully) be challenged with argument. As one would think Jonaid may have learned this, lol. You and I believe different things and that's cool.
"I accept the presence of the mysterious in life..."
DeleteI love the mysterious... even if I do think there is a material explanation behind it! "I have thought the mysteries of the universe to be bound up in your strange being." Too much credit for a guy manipulating me for a sexual fantasy game, right? Yeah, I know that and I guess he does too. But it does so draw me, his delicateness and dangerousness, the honey on the tip of his knife.
Oh, not only that, haha. It's just the pertinent example that came to mind..
Little aside: Following on from my "Personal Note", I sent my ex a Viber message asking if I may call him. He immediately deactivated his Viber account, so that's that.
"I like that feeling. Feelings taste good. I don't have enough of them in my diet. :)"
M.E. wrote something very interesting in her post on Epicureanism:
"Part of trying to become more aware of my emotions means that I am suddenly sometimes swimming knee deep in terrible emotions, without any practice dealing with any of it or making sense of it. Marcus Aurelius has been a good way to get more zen about things."
What's your take on that?
"I think you have a remarkably expansive and analytical mind- and that your openness to grow from the experiences of others is admirable. You are also very wise. You're a beautiful soul, North."
Thank you A.
You wrote once that you learned from my voice; I am also learning from yours. You are direct here. Direct and uncompromising but never unfair. It's remarkable to watch you at work. I have grown bolder in life and in work since being here, and part of that is learning from your example. I'm not being a suck - it has actually helped me, lol.
"I disagree. Not all belief systems or people embrace this principle."
Oh dear. I ought to have written "Belief system notwithstanding..." although I do still tend to naievety.
"Belief systems constitute a form of indoctrination. Their content has the capacity to alter human behaviour. That is why I think that theocratic ideologies like Islam- which was exquisitely crafted by a manipulative mastermind to consolidate power and wield control over the masses, through violence that its progenitor legitimized and incited in others via self-righteous fervor- are particularly dangerous. But Christianity was also used towards nefarious ends. And so, unlike many Christians, I think that the separation of church and state is very important for the safeguarding of our personal freedoms within the framework of a pluralistic democracies. "
Oh indeed. And you express it so well. Absolutely nothing to add.
"People are assholes- myself included. :P"
Well, we're just animals. I really do need to clip that Adventure Time episode...
Finn the Human: "Do you think she was human, or just another wild animal?"
Jake the Dog: "We're all wild animals, brother"
Finn (thoughtfully): "Yeah. I guess we are, brother."
"Thank you. You are the first person to ever call me humble on this blog- and this, from amongst a long list of people who would no doubt line up to punch me in the face. :D"
DeleteNot at all. You're all about reality before ego, and you lead. As I wrote, you're the alpha for a reason, and good leaders serve. You've certainly done this place a very specific service recently ;)
"I wouldn't have it any other way. I can truly be myself here, and express *all* of my parts openly, candidly, and without restraint. Even my sociopathy. This is so valuable to me. "
Being able to flow without restraint is honouring to the self and healthy if we can channel that in ways that don't threaten our place in society (ie by damaging others). And to be in a place where others "get" you, where you can be yourself - it's a real gift.
It may seem odd that *I* feel at home here, but I really do. While I heal and develop my voice, this is a very productive place for me.
So when Jonaid arrived, I felt driven to protect the qualities of this place that are valuable. My inital reaction was actually outrage at his derision of psychopaths. Just appalling behaviour. Really, really poor. It surprises me that you're all relatively chill about his calling you evil and so on. It's preposterous and unhelpful and unfounded and really fucking bad manners, invading the place as he has done. This is why I have continued to ask his motive. I sense that you and the others are coming at this from a different place?
But you have done a marvellous and highly entertaining job.
"He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and compassion upon whom he will have compassion"
DeleteI did everything to humble my heart before Him and to accept him as Saviour. So for a while, I figured I was one of those to whom he has chosen not to show his favour. And perhaps that way of thinking stems from my experience with my father and the rejection I felt.
That you have overcome that barrier despite your own father being probably being more brutal than mine astounds me. You wrote about God as Heavenly Father - I *can* understand how powerful that might be in your life
and FUCK Jonaid for shitting all over that personal journey of yours!
As I said, you humble me.
I suppose all of this means the patterns of rejection are still deeply entrenched for me and I will need to challenge this next. I know it took me a long time to reply to you because it's easier to not get close.
I think my tone was a little harsh; please don't take that personally. It's that sea of emotions from places deep that haven't been stirred in a long while.
So yeah. FUCK JONAID for trying to dismantle this place for his own agenda. Don't you fucking touch my posts here to A, Jonaid. Don't fucking dare.
I believe "A" is absolutely correct about Christianity. The information in The Bible about past and present is "spot on", and I'm sure it will prove to be in the future, as well. I believe it is best for people to go straight to God and His Word. Although I don't believe they mean to-the information can be altered, when it is disseminated, through churches, people, etc. I believe it is best to go to the source, for this reason.
DeleteNorth-You are not finding your voice, YOU HAVE FOUND IT!!! IT IS BEAUTIFUL!!!
DeletePS North-Your ex you sent the Viber message to, that deactivated his account-HIS LOSS!!!
DeleteThanks so much for the thoughtful reply, North. I will respond to it when I am a bit more rested.
DeleteI could try to put it in better words how I feel about the act of seduction myself, but your own words, M.E., have it spot on:
ReplyDeletehttp://brittabowles.blogspot.com/2013/10/interview-with-me-thomas-diagnosed.html?m=1
"For the exploits, the pleasure is in gaining and exercising influence over them. I am never infatuated with my possessions, but I am for my exploits. And I can feel possessive over my exploits. I pursue them because they give me a thrill. Will I win them over, what might that look like? Success is valuable only to the extent that it is evidence of my power. As one blog reader said, 'There really is nothing more amusing or exciting or fun than turning a smart, beautiful, resourceful person into a personal plaything.' It is a game, but I am not necessarily interested in the spoils so much as the maneuvering."
As well as...
"More than anything, I want to feel the depth of their ache for me. I want to know that it was/is real just like I am real. Somehow I feel that it is their ache that defines me, that that is who I am. But their ache, their nauseousness, their fear, their void seem to say so little about who they are as people, and so much about who I am as a person. I created that ache. I caused that pain."
"But their ache, their nauseousness, their fear, their void seem to say so little about who they are as people, and so much about who I am as a person. I created that ache. I caused that pain.""
ReplyDeletePerhaps this is why he runs away the instant he sees me. It's always a very visceral reaction. I know he's competitive and hates losing but it's more than sour grapes.
This explains so much. His deep *relief* after I came with him the first time, lying beneath me with sweat pouring down his beautiful face. It was so strange, wondrous.
DeleteAfter that, he was so excited, so excited.
His every seduction was artistry. Masterpieces. He creates exquisite theatre, barely describable but designed for heightened experience. He used to say "I know I had moments in the clouds." Well, he wanted me to feel as though I were in the clouds.
I wrote to him, at the end. I gave him a quote from Maya Angelou: "I have learned that people will forget what you said. People will forget what you did. But they will never forget how you made them feel."
Perfect validation for him!
There was a quote on Twitter, something along the lines of when you seek power over others, you're losing it over yourself. I asked what she thought. Possibly I can see now what it looks like.
I do feel good that our experience has impacted him too. It sure as hell impacted me. Let's use his language: "you ask yourself many questions in those times." Perhaps he can find new and better ways too.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/margaret-paul-phd/personal-power-vs-power-o_b_7099454.html
"All of us would love to have personal power -- the power to manifest our dreams, the power to remain calm and loving in the face of fear, the power to stay centered in ourselves in the face of attack.
Our society often confuses personal power -- "power within" -- with "power over," which is about controlling others. There is a vast difference between personal power and control.
Personal power comes from an inner sense of security, from knowing who you are in your soul, from having defined your own intrinsic worth. It is the power that flows through you when you are connected to and feel your oneness with a spiritual source of guidance. It is the power that is the eventual result of doing deep inner emotional and spiritual work to heal the fears and false beliefs acquired in childhood."
But he sure as hell won't listen to me.
* I asked M.E. what she thought about it
Delete"That was power, but it was also affirmation. I was someone’s irresistible treasure. I loved that sensation, and I needed it, not sometimes, not even often, but always."
ReplyDeleteWhat's interesting to note is that serial seducers find a target that is not too easy to win over and if they're successful they get bored and move on. Ask yourself why on Earth such behavior exists in a randomly evolved species aiming to maximize its survival time? Is it helping civilization that some people use the art of intimacy and love to shatter people from the inside? The only explanation - indeed the obvious one once you finally see it - is that these serial seducers - most of them - have an agenda. Sure they want the "intimacy" but their sexual drive is coming primarily from winning over an innocent, "good" victim as opposed to a genuine, loving relationship. It also adds to their delusion of feeling powerful. Once again this is the misuse of language. "Power" is to ACTUALLY have authority over something else. What these frauds are doing is manipulating and deceiving unsuspecting, innocent, GOOD people who are not stupid but are unwilling to believe that a human being can do such a thing so they accept what they see as real until it becomes obvious it wasn't. It's not power but the deluded mind tells itself they had control when all they did was abuse a person's good nature. True power is to be able to be 100% sincere and win people's minds and hearts.
Perhaps there may be some seducers who actually fall desperately "in love" with their prey and don't care if they're married, or incompatible, and will do their utmost to win them. This is of course not as sick as the above category but it is only a step away. This sort of "love" is more an infatuation and can easily break once the goal is reached.
What both kinds have in common is cowardice once again. They are incapable of genuine, loving relationships, incapable of getting people to like them for who they really are, so they deceive and act in deceptively seductive manners to "win" their target. You'll always notice one thing with these people: as soon as you call them out in a balanced way (i.e. "hey listen I'd prefer you be you and not put up an act") they'll quiver inside and run the other way.
Jonaid-I loved this contribution of yours!!! You are absolutely correct!!!
DeleteBeing fake is "a dime a dozen" these days. If you find someone who is authentic, you have just found GOLD!!!
DeleteAnd, as Mr. Hyde said-"Authentic is much more nourishing"...
DeleteI hope I quoted you correctly, Mr. Hyde.:)
Delete*This is some twisted stuff that he will continue to do forever.
DeleteIn the name of God, The All Merciful, The Compassionate:
ReplyDelete"And some of them draw near unto others, mutually questioning.
One of them will start the talk and say: "I had an intimate companion (on the earth),
Who used to say: Art thou in truth of those who put faith (in his words)?
Can we, when we are dead and have become mere dust and bones - can we (then)
verily be brought to book?
He saith: Will ye look?
Then looketh he and seeth him in the depth of hell.
He saith: By Allah, thou verily didst all but cause my ruin,
And had it not been for the favour of my Lord, I too had been of those haled forth (to
doom)."
Qur'an Chapter 37 - Those who set the Ranks - Verses 50-57
PERSONAL NOTE:
I'm sure I've read this years back and just like most of the book I had no clue what it meant and assumed it was just ancient tales. A month or so ago I was reading this chapter and for some reason these specific verses just jumped out at me. It's as if they were talking to ME and ME only (I know sounds solipsistic but that's not the point). I kept going back and re-reading. God protect me from a misreading or misinterpreting the verses but I kept looking at where it says "Then looketh he and seeth him in the depth of hell." The context seems to be referring to an intimate companion and it says HE looked and sees HIM in hell. The point being that these verses CAN be read for both heterosexual & homosexual relationships. God knows best.
"What do you all think? For me I think it is for that and also to create that physical high that your body rewards you for, the intoxication of infatuation. There's also a sense of intimacy about it. And what is intimacy if not a high degree of influence over another person?"
ReplyDeleteReal intimacy stems from real love. In a romantic context, love is when a person truly, deep down, has an affection & longing for you. True love is when you want your loved one to be happy, to be successful, to be free from the hardships of life, to be spared stress and anxiety, and to be comfortable. A true lover would easily and without hesitation take upon themselves any calamity to save their loved one - not because they're being heroic or because they are self-destructive but because they're compelled to out of love. They could not live with themselves having NOT done so - having let you suffer when they could have done something, even if it was to take your suffering upon themselves. When that feeling is reciprocated it is the closest thing to bliss a human can experience in this life. True "bliss" is to love God and know that He loves you (yes I know it sounds very cheesy but I have to say it now that I'm starting to experience it).
I suspect psychopaths (and to a lesser extent sociopaths) either do not believe in such a love (that it exists) or are repulsed by it. Either way, it does not mean that what they do is "love" or "intimacy." It's lust and all else is an illusion deliberately delivered to win their target. It's sad because sex is far, far better when real love is in the air. Arrogance has it's price - it's like selling a Mercedes Benz with 0 mileage for a used skating board. What do you do once you know you made a ridiculous mistake? You lie to yourself and pretend that the skating board is actually a Mercedes and the Mercedes was fake. What you should do is to accept the reality and see how your fortunes change. God is All Merciful but not a "free for all."
Another great contribution, Jonaid.:)
Deletehttps://www.vice.com/print/science-says-love-doesnt-exist
ReplyDelete"Love is just a behavior acted out by choice, because of forces within society. It means something to us not because it's a tangible thing that exists but because we've agreed to pretend it exists, like money, or Christmas."
I fucken love this!! ;)
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThat's your idea of love. I thought love was safety. I didn't even have that. These are concepts we wrap in labels, that sometimes align with relatable feelings.
DeleteLove is not an entity of it's own. When we refer to love, we speak of a subjective experience. An experience bound up in our biology.
Neither is a relationship an independent entity, wrapping participants in a warm blanket. While the participants may have subjective experiences that correlate, they are * in fact* independent. This is why communication is the foundation of a relationship.
Saying love is selfless or that love is safety is merely communicating your ideal, your expectation in relationship.
It's neither more no less valid than any other expectation.
What I am saying doesn't debunk relationship but it *does* help us clarify what we are talking about and gives us the basis for creating useful practices to enrich our lives and those of our significant others.
If I say love is selfless it means I have no expectation. It is acceptance of where others are on their path.I simply show up to support when/where I can.
DeleteIf I say love is selfless it means I have no expectation. It is acceptance of where others are on their path.I simply show up to support when/where I can.
DeleteThere are infinite ways to perceive love yes.
DeleteThere are infinite ways to perceive love yes.
DeleteOnly a website named "www.VICE.com" would post an article with a headline "Science says love doesn't exist." It doesn't even have the humility or the foresight to say "some research may hint that a certain kind of love is not real" or something to that effect. Goes to show this website is not operated by the brightest of the minions.
ReplyDeleteFor all your pride and conceit, remember you are nothing but minions to a deceiver. Alas you are incapable of realizing the sad irony therein.
ReplyDeleteApparently even peer-reviewed and published scientists and psychology professors are minions now.
ReplyDeleteI quite like this thought of someone considering me a devil. Very liberating. Lola write on the last posts that thoughts are private entertainment... Maybe I've had too much Yerba Mate this morning but I am definitely entertained.
I agree, that thoughts are "private entertainment".:) I often find myself thinking things, that make me laugh out loud!!!
DeleteSome certainly are. When reason and logic are clearly misused in "science" than it becomes obvious that you either have an imbecile in a position they don't deserve or a minion or both. So far, since we still have somewhat rigorous standards in science, the minions only manage - sometimes - to deliberately draw & advertise false conclusions from real empirical data. In time, as the minions grow, we'll start to see outright pseudo science spreading more & more BS and getting away with it because it's not superstition, it's "science."
ReplyDeleteHave you checked the Prairie Vole data? Or must the *outcomes* of scientific research simply confirm to *your* expectations in order to be valid?
DeleteDo you realise the article is talking about the effects of oxytocin on pair bonding? It wasn't actually an attack on Allah. Or on you. So you didn't read it and discounted Anon 9:53's post merely on account of it being posted here in opposition to your ideas.
Never mind the peer review process! Deceit, deceit! It doesn't fit Jonaid World doctrine! Burn the heretics! Oh wait, don't burn them! Subject them to Jonaid's rescuing services. Quick, Jonaid, if you research quickly enough you might find their email addresses through which you can pour your saving balms,
Oh hang on! I'm confused... Does Allah save or not? Seems to depend on whether you are trying to make a particular point. No matter - you will choose your objective, no doubt guided by the Holy Qu'ran.
Now... I've been wondering whether it might not be easier for you to take a different approach. Since *everyone* who disagrees with you is a minion or an imbecile (very gracious of you to allow that, darling), and since so many DO disagree with you, perhaps you could start by *blacklisting* ALL humans, then finding ones, that like yourself, are victims and not arrogant and whom Allah *might* deign to save. Whitelist these ones. They will be easy to find because they'll capitulate to you. And will be no one at all.
Please keep having fun with your 'logic' and 'reason'. It's brilliant.
"Have you checked the Prairie Vole data? Or must the *outcomes* of scientific research simply confirm to *your* expectations in order to be valid?"
ReplyDeleteTypical straw man arguments attacking something I never said. I said when logic & reason - two faculties which are the universal language of humanity (intact in sane people who haven't sold themselvea) - are not in conformity with conclusions drawn from actual empirical data that's when you know there's an ulterior. You apparently read everything I write as being about me only and not what I actually write. I guess this projection at work. Love truly does not exist for sold minions - the study may as well be accurate for that subgroup.
'Only a website named "www.VICE.com" would post an article with a headline "Science says love doesn't exist." It doesn't even have the humility or the foresight to say "some research may hint that a certain kind of love is not real" or something to that effect. Goes to show this website is not operated by the brightest of the minions.'
DeleteI ask again - did you even read the article, let alone the paper? Do you not know of the biological bases for our 'feelings' of what is called love by convention?
Try this. It's Helen Fisher again and a bit of a primer for you:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/love/
You might also wish to research co-dependency and identify some patterns in your own behaviour. I'm really sorry you are trapped in these destructive patterns in your life. It is sad to see. But it's only yourself that can break free and change them. Read that huff post link on personal power. At the moment, you are a whirlwind of disruption and pain.
Jonaid,
DeleteI want you to know you do make some very good observations when you speak about your personal story. *These* are welcomed and valued.
For example, you write:
"You'll always notice one thing with these people: as soon as you call them out in a balanced way (i.e. "hey listen I'd prefer you be you and not put up an act") they'll quiver inside and run the other way."
Now, I can't say and wouldn't dare to say he is quivering inside, but it certainly HAS been my experience with my ex that he runs away. I'd love to engage with him as he is and have attempted to do this. He refuses to talk to me as I've described.
Now being here, and hearing it is your experience too, and *hearing and respecting* what the other contributors write allows me to *change my beliefs*, the ones that were embedded in our lofty, thrilling, delicious affair. The ones that left me looking for him everywhere.
It's time and patience that allows us to learn and grow and this journey is different for everyone.
I'm trying to be patient with you, hoping to see your journey come through so you can heal and learn and grow with the rest of us. But I won't stand for your disrupting the openness of this place because it is valuable to how we operate. Please respect that this is a forum of growth and stop fighting for the sake of fighting. Seek peace. I don't want to fight you but I will fight protect the dynamics of this community because they are important to me.
We are not going to bow down and accept your doctrines. Accept that and find a way to proceed by listening to yourself.
I recently worked with a Persian fellow, a former Muslim who still believes in God. He taught me something very powerful: to follow the path with heart.
Listening to my heart, to my feelings, was the way I moved beyond the victim role and developed my personal power.
That's my story, that's where I am coming from here and if you want to label me a devil or a minion it's because you are closing your eyes. It doesn't reflect on me or impact my self image at all. If you want to stop being damaged by people taking advantage of your good nature, learn to construct boundaries. Learn what it is you like and dislike and say no.
You are not responsible for others. You are not responsible for their feelings or their well being. You are fully responsible for yourself and your own well-being.
Accept yourself. Accept your own self. You have as much right to exist as any other organism in the universe... no more and no less. What you do after that is up to you.
Those are my learnings, my experience. That's all I offer. Please continue to share your experience without judging the personal journeys of others.
Thanks.
North,
DeleteYou are an exemplary model of intelligent, inexhaustible patience in your conversations with JJ. *Hyde tipping his bowler in admiration.*
Mr. Hyde
Thankyou Mr Hyde. I'm glad you are back!
DeleteHow are the Matrix fluctuations? Did you traverse successfully?
Got blindsided by a rogue wave but am feeling my way through it. Things look different from this end of the matrix. ;)
DeleteAfter reading through the last number of posts in which JJ was giving his sermons, I was very glad that you and A had the energy to take him to task. The whole blog is clogged with his self-righteous rants, which I find incredibly boring. I wonder what on earth prompts him to keep posting the same lame arguments and worse, call people minions and devils. It's as if he's fortifying his ego-in-god by trying to 'slay dragons.' Ho hum. Hope he gets a life and lives happily ever after anywhere but here, on this site. :D
I find it impossible to discuss anything but the weather with extreme fundamentalists: they wind up wanting to save and/or kill me within the first 10 minutes.
How goes your mindful journey? Any new insights into the fabric of reality?
Just curious. . . I love reading your posts.
Mr. Hyde
Different meaning broader?
DeleteI like your take on JJ. Yes, it is very boring now but it is still ridiculous for him to treat contributors here the way he does. I think I've done enough now to *show* him how he might become part of the community.
"Fortifying his ego-in-go by trying to slay dragons" - I do believe you've nailed it. A seems to see it this way too.
He is very like some other damaged people I've come across. By trying to jam his experiences and everyone he comes across into his rigid model, he can create a narrative for himself that protects him. It's his safety. As I say, it's sad. But there's nothing anyone can do to help or to stop him.
Did you ever read CS Lewis's The Last Battle?
"Aslan raised his head and shook his mane. Instantly a glorious feast appeared on the Dwarfs’ knees: pies and tongues and pigeons and trifles and ices, and each Dwarf had a goblet of good wine in his right hand. But it wasn’t much use. They began eating and drinking greedily enough, but it was clear that they couldn’t taste it properly. They thought they were eating and drinking only the sort of things you might find in a Stable. One said he was trying to eat hay and another said he had got a bit of an old turnip and a third said he’d found a raw cabbage leaf. And they raised golden goblets of rich red wine to their lips and said, ‘Ugh! Fancy drinking dirty water out of a trough that a donkey’s been at! Never thought we’d come to this.’ But very soon every Dwarf began suspecting that every other Dwarf had found something nicer than he had, and they started grabbing and snatching, and went on to quarreling, till in a few minutes there was a free fight and all the good food was smeared on their faces and clothes or trodden under foot. But when at last they sat down to nurse their black eyes and their bleeding noses, they all said: ‘Well, at any rate, there’s no Humbug here. We haven’t let anyone take us in The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs!’
‘You see,’ said Aslan. ‘ They will not let us help them. They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their own minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they can not be taken out.’[2]"
*Their prison is only in their own minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they can not be taken out*
The only thing to do now is to let him be. And examine what prison doors we might ourselves walk through.
North-I love that excerpt from C.S. Lewis's "The Last Battle!!! Especially, the last paragraphs...
DeleteThank you for your concern for my well being. I assure you I have such peace and serenity right now that I never had in my entire life and it's only getting better with each day. I would never have believed that what I'm witnessing nowadays was ever possible but now I am ecstatic and cannot possibly deny it.
ReplyDeleteI was supposed to be NOT responding to you. My apologies to the sincere readers - old habits die hard. Since you've been so kind as to worry about my mental health, I have some more Divine words for you:
In the name of God, The All Merciful, The Compassionate:
"For the sake of thy Lord, be patient!
For when the trumpet shall sound,
Surely that day will be a day of anguish,
Not of ease, for those who cover up (the truth).
Leave Me (to deal) with him whom I created lonely,
And then bestowed upon him ample means,
And sons abiding in his presence
And made (life) smooth for him.
Yet he desireth that I should give more.
Nay! For lo! he hath been stubborn to Our revelations.
On him I shall impose a fearful doom.
For lo! he did consider; then he planned -
(Self-)destroyed is he, how he planned!
Again (self-)destroyed is he, how he planned! -
Then he looked round;
Then frowned he and showed displeasure.
Then turned he away in pride
And said: This is naught else than magic from of old;
This is naught else than speech of mortal man.
Him shall I fling unto the burning."
Qur'an Chapter 74 - The Cloaked one - Verses 7-26
NOTE: "And sons abiding by his presence" can be understood in modern times as having ample security. The ancient Arabs considered having more sons as a blessing - power and security.
" I assure you I have such peace and serenity right now that I never had in my entire life and it's only getting better with each day."
DeleteI have such serenity I'm trolling a blog with my Abrahamic crap.
Please, tell me a new one.
I think it would be helpful to consider that religion in itself can be another form of codependency. Can you maintain your own stability of self esteem and confidence without your religion, or do you truly believe you cannot do without it?
DeleteMy own quality of self image, self esteem, and confidence is entirely independent of any outside factors. I have no need for an emotional crutch to uphold them, not even God. My inner most being is emotionally self sustained. Of course it helps to ve a sociopath, to never feel that genuine emotional obligation towards others and consequently towards yourself because you lack that empathy. I think it's a perfectly feasible goal to reach, that state of mind, even for normal people. I think you just need to give yourself the kind of push in the right direction to get where you want to be.
I am a "normal", and completely agree with you.:)
DeleteLove is a choice.
DeleteAs for sex- who are you to say what is "better" for anyone other than yourself? Sexual pleasure is highly subjective.
I compartmentalize love and lust. The two don't mix for me very much. But that does not mean that I cannot love my partner, and demonstrate it pragmatically by way of the commitment, respect, and mutual reciprocity we share.
"My own quality of self image, self esteem, and confidence is entirely independent of any outside factors. I have no need for an emotional crutch to uphold them, not even God. My inner most being is emotionally self sustained. Of course it helps to ve a sociopath, to never feel that genuine emotional obligation towards others and consequently towards yourself because you lack that empathy. I think it's a perfectly feasible goal to reach, that state of mind, even for normal people. I think you just need to give yourself the kind of push in the right direction to get where you want to be."
DeleteThis is indeed the goal.
Perhaps you will enjoy C.S. Hyatt's description of the Natural Child:
"In contrast to Metaphysical Generalizers, I have noticed another curious type of person. For this person, fundamental or metaphysical conclusions are not an issue. They are not relevant. He is a "Here I Am Person." He simply experiences events and situations, and if he generalizes, he does so from his observations. He doesn't need to know the "Great" answers. When he has answers, he has them. He likes events, experiences and things. He takes interest in things that interest him. His sense of his basic self is non-comparative. This means he uses comparison to learn, instead of for self-evaluation and judgment.
The identity of this person is the "Natural Child" who is unassisted by the need to discuss their own self-worth.
They realize that worth is not a relevant issue, and cannot be. Have you ever heard of a fetus considering its worth for life before propelling itself into life?
Is it possible to be "wrong" or "bad" as a human being—at the level of mere existence? WO. How would one measure this? It is always done by feelings. The single most devastating error a young mind makes is adopting the fictitious belief that since I feel bad, I must be bad. But this does not prove that it is even possible to be bad, or wrong, or worthless. It simply shows us that we have the power to create a concept, forget that we did it, and then become imprisoned in our own creation. Do you remember when you did this last?"
This is my path.
*clicks like button*
DeleteA-Can I ask you a personal question? You don't need to respond, if you do not wish to. I was wondering-did you initially have lust for your partner? Or, are love and lust always seperate?
DeleteI tried my best to overcome the nobel qualities I inherited from my forefathers. Gradually I was losing them after seeing nothing but selfishness and deception in the world. Yet somehow I could not undo myself. Theoretically I was perfectly okay with liberalism as it exists in this culture. In my mind all was okay and indeed desirable but for some reason I never understood until now why I just didn't DO most of what I wanted. I hardly ever had any real problems or obstacles when, on rare occasions, I'd go looking for "fun" but somehow I just wouldn't end up going all the way. I never felt envy or hate because I didn't need to. I was, however, often confused and frustrated with myself for "having it easy" but not taking advantage and getting what is so often so freely given to me. This year I was so overwhelmed and eventually desperate for some genuine empathy but because I never got it I decided I had to force myself somehow to change. No one even teaches you HOW to be a selfish asshole, at least not me. I tried and tried (I'm not going to give details but I didn't do anything remotely "evil" compared to what most psychos do). Ultimately I was saved - literally saved - by God. I did not want to believe because I had gone so far as an atheist for 12 years. Furthermore I almost couldn't - I was so utterly convinced that God(s) and religion(s) were man made. Yet how God saved me and has guided me since is something I cannot deny ever. I can lie to myself or to others if I want (and I haven't a clue why I would ever consider that) but I can never deny what I've experienced this year. It is wholly rational, wholly logical, and real beyond anything I've ever witnessed. My entire life and the entire world makes FULL sense to me now whereas before I just had a seemingly better explanation in atheism as opposed to any other ideology.
ReplyDeleteIt is NOT about wanting to be independent. I was never arrogant or cared to be "independent." To me the TRUTH is all that matters. If God is my Creator than I needed to know that without having to sell it to myself. Now that I KNOW He exists and nothing happens against His will, how can I not be happy? Should I wish to be "independent" - a mere mortal at the mercy of this world who will die never to return? Even if I lead a "successful" life I have no clue when / where / how I will end. This is hubris which leads to man's downfall. I realized very, very, VERY few people are actually devoted to the truth. Most people sell themselves when they've gained enough to satiate their pride.
Take what you will from this if you're sincere. Whether you want to be independent or not, whether you can live happily without thinking you need God or not - these are red herrings. God existence is not contingent on your accepting or denying Him. We need Him all the time - we are either ignorant of Him (as I was) or deliberately, out of pride, reject Him.
God cannot be made up and sold to oneself. You can think I'm lying and using Him as a means to an end here but surely you don't think that I lie to myself when I say I believe in Him.
ReplyDeleteOnly a humble mind asks: what makes intelligent people believe in things which to me seem utterly nonsensical?
Another example of the misuse of language: truth has become subjective. Everyone can believe whatever makes them happy no matter how illogical or unethical. Seriously just step out and look at the world from the outside in - it's so obvious what's happening.
ReplyDeleteNo no, stop thinking and just indulge! That's how it starts and then eventually everyone forgets where they come from.
"Everyone can believe whatever makes them happy no matter how illogical"
DeleteOh the irony.
I really don't understand why North bothers with you.
The same reason you do, minion.
ReplyDeleteEnough.
Delete
Delete"Minion", LOL
I, for one, can't get enough of your stupidity. Keep talking; one can never get too much ammo. XD
**Ding ding ding!!**
ReplyDeleteIt's time for yet another round of "Let's Query the Quran", with Jonaid and Friends!
Anyone wishing to avoid wasting the next ten minutes of their lives should stop reading now. You have been forewarned. ;)
J.J: "Thank you for your concern for my well being. I assure you I have such peace and serenity right now that I never had in my entire life and it's only getting better with each day. I would never have believed that what I'm witnessing nowadays was ever possible but now I am ecstatic and cannot possibly deny it."
Yes, yes. What inner "peace" and "serenity" you must feel, speaking on God's behalf, and threatening all the infidel heathen on this blog with eternal hellfire on a regular basis. How ecstatic it must make you to witness your self-righteousness growing with every passing day.
J.J: "I was supposed to be NOT responding to you. My apologies to the sincere readers - old habits die hard. Since you've been so kind as to worry about my mental health, I have some more Divine words for you:"
^And here, from atop your divine pedestal, in all your smug and self-righteous glory, you remind us that you are SO far above us that it is beneath you to even address us. But that won't stop you from leveraging the text of your self-proclaimed "holy book" like a shit flinging monkey, to damn all us "minions" (a.k.a. anyone who disagrees with you) to hell.
How godly you are, Jonaid.~
Since you like posting from the book of lies that you call holy so much, you must be very eager to discuss the sciptures you are so fond of using against others. So let us deconstruct one of the verses you posted, shall we? After all, you claim to want a civil debate on Islam. So let's have one.
"In the name of God, The All Merciful, The Compassionate:"
Delete^Lies. There is nothing compassionate or merciful about the god of the Quran, nor its human progenitor. Mohammed was a historically verifiable warmonger, pedophile and tyrant.
"For the sake of thy Lord, be patient!"
^More lies. If God is omnipotent, why should anyone have to be patient with Him, for his own sake? That doesn't even make sense. Should it not rather be that God is patient with us, for our sake?
Lo! Behold! The truth inverted, the signature of the Quran. :P
"For when the trumpet shall sound,
Surely that day will be a day of anguish,
Not of ease, for those who cover up (the truth)."
The Bible teaches that when the trumpet sounds, we will be changed in the "twinkling of an eye." We will be clothed in our eternal bodies. This will be a liberating, transformative experience, when we will be *divested* of the anguish sin causes.
"Leave Me (to deal) with him whom I created lonely,
And then bestowed upon him ample means,
And sons abiding in his presence
And made (life) smooth for him."
^Sheer manipulation by the author, in which he cautions folks to not get lulled into a false sense of complacency, or a lukewarm fealty, on account of the comforts of worldly security. Mohammed wanted to remind people of how vulnerable they are when they dare to disobey him- and, by proxy- God.
"Yet he desireth that I should give more.
Nay! For lo! he hath been stubborn to Our revelations. "
^"For verily, if thou had resisteth not Our revelations, We would surely have showered you with golden lamborghinis and OPEC oil profits. Allah is all-knowing, wise. XD
What is this "Our"? Why does the voice of "God" in a religion whose central message purportedly emphasizes uncompromising, unflinching monotheism comprise a consistent plurality? This is an illogical contradiction.
"On him I shall impose a fearful doom.
For lo! he did consider; then he planned -
(Self-)destroyed is he, how he planned!
Again (self-)destroyed is he, how he planned!"
^And here we have Mohammed threatening the dissenters who plotted against him.
Have you noticed that the Surahs set the tone, first by chiding readers, then by moving quickly to threatening them with hellfire? This is but one of many predictable, redundant literary devices within the Quran, designed to incite fear and foster insecurity in readers, thereby exerting control over them.
"Then he looked round;
Then frowned he and showed displeasure.
Then turned he away in pride
And said: This is naught else than magic from of old;
This is naught else than speech of mortal man.
Him shall I fling unto the burning."
Ahh. Good ol' Mo... always threatening those who refuse to submit to his despotic ideology with eternal torture.
Because beheading and torture and crucifixion (oh my!) just don't QUITE drive the point home well enough. ;)
Thank you for the belly laughs, A. It's been over two weeks. ;)
Delete"Because beheading and torture and crucifixion (oh my!) just don't QUITE drive the point home well enough. ;)"
My concern exactly. If I respond to JJ's asshole rants I'll lose my head. Say something I'll regret.
JJ's quote"
"Then turned he away in pride
And said: This is naught else than magic from of old;
This is naught else than speech of mortal man.
Him shall I fling unto the burning."
Being burned myself by religion from a young age and being a literal "magic of old" person, this message wants me to strike lightening into JJ's third eye. :D
I can relate to the medieval hordes out there, masked with divine intentions. We all want to be right about our choices. Living in the light of some human or omnipotent purpose. Cool. That's the desire to expand beyond the boundaries of spacetime and matter. If only we could realize that neither science nor religion has the total answer. The 'in-between' of several streams of science and metaphysics, economics and ecology, diverse spectrums of consciousness, must come together.
Human perception of knowledge, a 'unified theory of truth' is ever evolving, adapting.
Mr. Hyde
"this message . . ."
DeleteShould read, "this message revolts. I want to strike lightening . . ."
Sorry. I'm tipsy and it's been a long day.
Mr. Hyde
Synthesis, Mr Hyde.
DeleteWe make perceptive imprints in accordance with our existing models or as Leon Festinger puts it: "people cognise and interpret information to fit what they already believe." Always the map and not the territory.
'When shown the illusion on Easter Sunday, more children see the rabbit, where on other Sundays they are more likely to see the duck.1 The image itself allows both interpretations, and switching from seeing one to the other takes some effort.'
http://m.nautil.us/issue/19/illusions/how-your-brain-decides-without-you
The universe is a Rorschach inkblot. The more we open ourselves to datapoints, the closer we get to void, the nothingness which contains everything.
"The universe is a Rorschach inkblot. The more we open ourselves to datapoints, the closer we get to void, the nothingness which contains everything."
DeleteAgreed. I enjoy your inkblots. :)
Zero point vacumn may quite possibly contain meta-cosmos, a field of endless potential.
Mr. Hyde
"Zero point vacumn may quite possibly contain meta-cosmos, a field of endless potential."
DeleteIndeed, *you* are pure potential. We all are.
Did you know that the INTJ mind exhibits a zen-like pattern while synthesising / solving problems? You trigger that state for me, Mr Hyde. I like it.
Aw. *Blushes* Thank you, North. You spark me, too.
DeleteI think I read that about INTJ. I'm trying remember what I am according that system . . . introvert, intuitive, feeling and judging, as I recall. which is to say that I've always strived to be more zen-like and practicing yoga, living in the bush, helped with that. Still, I gotta work pretty hard at detachment. SW world has also given me some new tools in that respect.
Your writing is awesome, btw. You and A provide much intellectual food for thought and amusement. :D
JJ, not so much. :( He wears me out with his preaching and demonizing.
Mr. Hyde
"In the bush", Mr Hyde? It's 17:20 where I am ;)
DeleteINFJ then! INFJs do give me a nice balance, seeing things from a warmer and more holistic internal perspective than I ever could. I do appreciate this especially about you. You give me pause...
"Still, I gotta work pretty hard at detachment. SW world has also given me some new tools in that respect. "
I've certainly become bolder. I do have to remind myself to check my emails now before sending :)
"Your writing is awesome, btw. You and A provide much intellectual food for thought and amusement. :D "
Thank you. I'm getting there, learning to extract these intricate models I've developed in my brain. I tend to get excited and blurt them out higgledy-piggledy. Not nearly so succinctly or with the clarity you exhibit, Mr Hyde.
"JJ, not so much. :( He wears me out with his preaching and demonizing. "
Oh dear. Yes, I am done with him. The tide is turned and my role in that little saga is complete.
Yours with pleasure.
I lived in the deep woods far from towns or people for many years -- it was a relief to get down to the roots of life, with minimum fuss, i.e., without human egos 'crashing' into each other. Out there names, gender, beliefs, mean nothing. Everything was stripped bare and beautiful. I've been back in civilization for a long time . . . but in a way once the wild sows its oats inside of you, there is no going back to 'civilized' life. ;)
DeleteYour descriptive models are very sharp, lucid and organized, North. And I seriously doubt that I'm more holistic than you are. I'm barely 'civilized.' Lol.
In the grand tradition of holding up mirrors here on this blog, I am going to translate Jonaidspeak from Jonaidsworld into terms that sociopaths (or any other rational, perspicacious individuals) from sociopathworld can readily understand. :)
ReplyDeleteJ.J SPEAK: "I tried my best to overcome the nobel qualities I inherited from my forefathers. Gradually I was losing them after seeing nothing but selfishness and deception in the world. Yet somehow I could not undo myself."
TRANSLATION: "I really *tried* to be as degenerate and licentious as the filthy heathen with whom I associated- and I was ALMOST successful on account of how *everyone else* around me behaved- but ultimately, because of the noble qualities I inherited from my prestigious ancestors, God saw that I was too good for that, so he preserved me. And now, I have come to brag about it to all of you".
J.J SPEAK: "Theoretically I was perfectly okay with liberalism as it exists in this culture. In my mind all was okay and indeed desirable but for some reason I never understood until now why I just didn't DO most of what I wanted."
TRANSLATION: "I'm so oblivious that I never understood why I consistently failed to attract a partner who didn't use me like the patsy I broadcast myself to be. Now I know it's because I'm so much BETTER than everyone else. THAT is why I am consistently rejected in every sphere of life. It has nothing to do with the cloying, self-righteous attitude I project; it is because I am SO special that only God could possibly understand and appreciate me, in all my glory."
J.J SPEAK: " I hardly ever had any real problems or obstacles when, on rare occasions, I'd go looking for "fun" but somehow I just wouldn't end up going all the way."
TRANSLATION: "I messed around with guys, but I never had the balls to follow through, because I lacked the necessary assertiveness. But I attribute my sexual and relational awkwardness to God "saving" me on account of how special I am."
J.J SPEAK: "I never felt envy or hate because I didn't need to. I was, however, often confused and frustrated with myself for "having it easy" but not taking advantage and getting what is so often so freely given to me.'
TRANSLATION: "I was born into privilege, but I'm SUCH a good and deserving guy that I never took advantage of my affluence. Instead, I showered it unwisely on people unworthy of my affection because I am easily deceived and manipulated on account of my giant, throbbing ego." XD
J.J SPEAK: " This year I was so overwhelmed and eventually desperate for some genuine empathy but because I never got it I decided I had to force myself somehow to change. "
TRANSLATION: "Woe is me! I just wanted to be "loved", but nobody appreciated me. Nobody understands my plight: how righteous I am compared to all the base denizens that surround me. I know! I'll force myself to be even more of an asshole. That'll force them to pay attention to me. I'll show them!"
J.J SPEAK: "No one even teaches you HOW to be a selfish asshole, at least not me. I tried and tried (I'm not going to give details but I didn't do anything remotely "evil" compared to what most psychos do).
TRANSLATION: " But in spite of *TRYING* my very best I am waaay better than all you evil minions. You are privileged that I see fit to deign you with my presence.
Now shut up while I massage my ego in long, masturbatory strokes, and make myself feel better by threatening those I need to feel superior to with hellfire, under the guise of "sharing Islam" with the evil heathen, who deserve only to die. :P
Fuck you.
THANK YOU A - I laughed so long and hard I should be able to get through at least 3 days stress free.
DeleteFrith
"A"-You crack me up!!! YOU GO!!!
ReplyDeleteDo socios seduce? Well, no, since the condition is linked to a strong hatred of human beings I dont think so. Most socios having the stomach to be around other people at all likely see the thing as a "purchase", "lease" or "investment" or somthing similar? Does that sound ghastly? Well it is, most likely, a rather ghastly situation for all the gullible victims which have been "bought" without being informed by the "buyer".
ReplyDelete"What is this "Our"? Why does the voice of "God" in a religion whose central message purportedly emphasizes uncompromising, unflinching monotheism comprise a consistent plurality? This is an illogical contradiction."
ReplyDeleteIt's called a majestic plural. Really old stuff people have known this for centuries.
Apparently we have a hierarchy amongst the minions. They have one they put at the forefront and the others serve as cheerleaders who occasionally chime in to share in her glory. "A" I was one of very few people who used to caricature the scripture directly - most wouldn't dare. I know now that was because I was sincerely an atheist and thought the book was evil. I wasn't ever sold. I suspect and hope you're the same - you will find the truth if that's the case, God-willing.
You should sit back and think about the crowd you've joined. If I'm wrong and you said what you said merely out of your pride than this matter is beyond me. Your Lord will judge.
Who is this "they" you think have put me at the forefront, here? We all speak on our own accord. I'm quite sure M.E. would disagree most emphatically with my approach. But unfortunately for you, there are no censors or moderators, here. This is something I respect a great deal about M.E. Everyone stands or falls on there own accord.
DeleteNorth said once that this is a "safe place to share our narratives"- and while I appreciate the sentiment, it made me chuckle, because when I first came here, this place was a veritable shark tank. And frankly- I preferred it that way. I'm adaptable- but not so much that I will refrain from taking big bites out of your flawed logic, and the piss-poor defense you mount in support of the book you claim to know and love.
"Wouldn't dare" criticize your scriptures? Not everyone cowers and quakes in the face of Islam, Jihadi.
The book you revere is a veritable compendium of horrors. You were better off an atheist than parroting the claptrap you call "holy", and the charlatan you call "prophet", minion. :P
There we are, finally. As someone who claims to cling to the moral exemplar of Jesus it ought to be shocking when you say "you were better off an atheist than parroting the claptrap..." So it's better to be a mindless minion of an envious coward than to hold on to a moral guide, even if it's misguided in your opinion.
DeleteSincere readers will judge for themselves who & what you are and what you purport to be. Now really, I will only address any outright fabrications you post. Beyond that you can go thinking you're brilliant just because you have some e-fans here.
You should make a new ID: "Lestrange"
No, dumbass. It's better to retain to the capacity to think critically for oneself than to cling like a brainwashed imbecile to the immoral teachings of a pedophilic megalomaniac. :P
DeleteWAIT!!! I want to hear from the psychopaths/sociopaths, about the "seduction of normals". Do you seduce normals? If so, why? Is it just a part of "the game", do you like having sex with normals, a combination of both, etc.???
ReplyDeleteOr, is it an investment? To get things from normals, that you want?
ReplyDeleteHi I m new to this blog. Makes interesting reading between people who describe themselves as sociopaths. Can I ask how do you know you are one. What is it that makes you give yourself this label. How old were you when you thought you were a sociopath and what were you like as children then teenagers
ReplyDeleteThank you in anticipation for your responses
And can you sociopaths genuinely love?
ReplyDeleteI was going out with a sociopath for years. It was an affair. Took me 13 years to work out he was a sociopath
But he seemed to 'love me' his actions were of someone who loved but I found out accidentally he was seducing other people constantly - one example was that I found out he was sleeping with his Son's girlfriend ie his future daughter in law-yikes... That was a shock. I found out all sorts about him...
Really scary unbelievable stuff. But on the face of it he was the loveliest genuine, caring man. Quite domineering at times but didn't take fools gladly.
What's up with the "running away thing", that North mentioned previously, as well? As she said, she was not being threatening...
ReplyDeleteWe all create our own prisons, I suppose.
Delete*** FOR THE MINIONS ***
ReplyDeleteThat's what happens when everyone is entitled to live as they wish - it just never works. Your happiness eventually becomes contingent on "normals" or less intelligent sociopaths' subjugation to you. Civilization will abolish because of all this but that's okay for those of us who God Most High has blessed with the Truth and wisdom from Him.
For the minions its the last thing they want to hear: a reminder of what they know. Yes, your master tried so desperately to win me to his side. You know how it works minions and honestly I was asking for it at one point. That's why I say God "saved" me when I was heading to my doom so willingly (out of despair). Don't be envious - you can easily attain the same freedom if you put aside your pride and be sincere. Call to Him instead of planning & carrying out dramas here.
Don't be afraid of the envious coward. He's like Freddy: he only has power over you if you fear him, just like psychopaths. They reveal themselves when they have complete power over you. Fear God who ultimately controls everything. Where is your reason?
*** END MESSAGE ***
From now on I will start all messages directed towards the psychos / devils like this. Anyone who does NOT understand what is said in these messages needs not worry - they are not being addressed.
Thank you.
"he only has power over you if you fear him, just like psychopaths."
DeleteAhahaha, you actually think other people are mocking you because we're "afraid" of A? Think this through (for once in your life) - none of us give a crap about each other. Being here is a just a little space we can hang out without a mask for once.
You don't even understand why this place exists, how could you possibly say anything we'd care about?
I wasn't referring to A. You're not a bright minion.
DeleteLol!! I re-read his **** "TO THE MINIONS" **** treatise in light of your interpretation, and I have literally not stopped giggling since. I mean, it's funny in general, but that just tickled me pink. :D
DeleteHe's referring to Satan. Jihadi Jon fancies himself on a religious crusade. And the redundant, superstitious, quasi-hyptnotic hate speech that he regularly fills his mind with causes him to see ghosts , devils, "minions", and Jews hiding everywhere. XD
Which would be much more amusing, were it not for the fact that said quasi-hypnotic, threatening, hate speech compels a significant percentage of its adherents to do things such as seek to embed their theocratic ideology within our legislature, execute disabled people at Christmas parties, and detonate themselves as human explosives because someone dared to draw an offensive *picture* of Chief "Minion" Mohammed, or something :P
I mean, who needs free speech, right? We should TOTALLY give that up to make it illegal to criticize a bronze-age pedophile.~
Such legislation is currently *actually* on the table in some western nations, you know.
Ahahahaha...Ha.. Ha.
Hmm.
:P
Speaking of funnies....
DeleteThis one's especially for you, J.J- on behalf of sw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uQBgrUObbHw
Just be aware that such proselytizing efforts effected in person would likely result in a vastly different outcome than depicted in this clip. ;)
"And can you sociopaths genuinely love?"
ReplyDeleteYes they can they're human. It's just more difficult for them to make it work, to voice their feelings, and to recognize other's needs. Love can literally even cure a sociopath.
Psychopaths, as I've defined them, are almost certainly incapable or unwilling to love. Love is a human trait and it requires a heart.
Thank you Jonaid, that's a very helpful comment
ReplyDeleteI thought sociopaths and psychopaths were virtually the same. How do you define the difference?
As I m commenting as anonymous - I ll use my name as sally23 so you know who I am.
Yes, because it is ever so helpful for our resident jihadist to spread yet more information and lies based on a biased and completely unscientific view of psychopathy. Because he's the expert, and we're just a bunch of devil worshipping demons.
DeleteLo! Jonaid is all-merciful! Compassionate and wise.~
Sally23:
DeleteIn a nutshell (more details can be found in my posts in this and previous discussions on this blog):
Psychopath: extreme end of the empathy spectrum. Lack empathy altogether - they actually hate it. Their traditional (and real) title is "devils." They actively, in full awareness and without any compulsion or need except their own agenda, seek to destroy the lives of innocent people and bring them into their gang. Hubris is the root cause & disease of these people.
Sociopath: operating on minimal / diminished capacity for empathizing and a weak moral code. They maintain some level of humanity in them. People who have been traumatized, abused, betrayed and broken to the point where they give up and become "monsters" would be in this category. They may be aware of what they do but they are not ultimately responsible for how they turned out. Despair & oppression is what is the root cause of this (as opposed to Hubris).
No one - scientists or philosophers - has any clear-cut definition for these terms. Even if they did, they're just bringing new words for ancient phenomenon.
Thank you.
Sally23:
DeleteAnd yes, just like everything else, predisposition to sociopathic / psychopathic traits can be inherited in one's genes. The question then becomes to what extent are such people responsible for their behavior.
As far as law is concerned, most - if not all - laws of the world do not consider psychopathy (or sociopathy / ASPD) as sufficient for removing guilt. This is for obvious reasons: it's for the greater good. Islamic law (since I'm muslim) has the same view insofar as outward behavior is concerned: judge and rule based on actions & provable motives.
What's more important, however, is Islamic scholars have addressed the essential nature of evil and how it can be passed on centuries ago. Each individual is only responsible in the eyes of God for what they had full knowledge of & control over. A "normal" (empath) person and a sociopath (predisposed) who commit the exact same crime - i.e. murder - may be given the same punishment in this world but in the eyes of God the empath committed a far greater sin since they had natural "breaks" which the sociopath did not.
The same rule applies to everything and anything that afflicts any human individual or group.
In the name of God, The All-Merciful, The Compassionate:
"These are revelations of Allah. We recite them unto thee in truth. Allah willeth no injustice to (His) creatures."
Qur'an 3:108
"Allah" is Arabic for "God." It is preferred by some interpretations to be used regardless of language because it cannot be made plural (i.e. Gods).
DeleteLove isn't real, or not real in the sense that most people would understand. It's something as a society we've agreed upon to exist because to maintain relationships for the long term we need a construct to uphold it. That's it's primary purpose.
ReplyDeleteSociopaths, psychopaths, whichever placeholder label you want to use are people who see through that illusion. We seek to make relationships where we hold power. "Love" is an empty word to us, or rather the traditional concept and social construct of it doesn't have the same meaningfulness to us as it does to normal people. When we seduce, when we seek "love", it is to induce a emotional state within someone else to make them more malleable to our will.
Thanks, this strikes me as a good explanation.
DeleteDo you ever seek relationships that have an even distribution of power? A negotiation with other benefits?
To love is to be happy with.
ReplyDeleteIf that is the case, then we don't indeed feel love. I can only fairly speak for myself though, as a sociopath.
DeleteWhen I seek "love with someone, when I use my power of seduction and will to make them more malleable to suit my own desires, I'm knowingly subjecting them to a form of abuse. If I was truly happy with them, wouldn't I be more empathetic to not force them to conform to my expectations, to not try and manipulate and mold them into something they're not? I am very well aware of what exactly it is that I'm doing to this person who is falling in love with me. That heartache they feel for me, that emotional turmoil that I put them through says so much about me and not so much of them. I enjoy breaking them down and building them back up from the ground up, even if it means pushing them to the brink suicide.
Why do you seek "love" with someone? What is it, that you desire from them? What do you try to make them into? Why do you break them down, and build them back up? What is the point of all of it?
Deletehttp://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr03/2013/1/23/10/enhanced-buzz-22247-1358955767-9.jpg
Delete"Why do you seek "love" with someone? What is it, that you desire from them? What do you try to make them into? Why do you break them down, and build them back up? What is the point of all of it?"
DeleteThe point? Because it's fun. Duh.
The chase and conquest is a great rush. It's different from anything else, and it's fun.
I don't speak for anyone else, but the people I've loved have all ended up the better for it. They know themselves better now because they journeyed with me and I helped them see themselves more clearly.
Scarlet-I like your sense of humor, and completely understand, what you mean.:) The chase and conquest is a great rush!!! It is different than anything else, and it's fun!!! I am glad the people you've loved, have ended up the better for it.:)
DeletePS-I love your name, too!!! Very cool!!!
DeleteThank you anonymous that does make sense because this affair man used to constantly ask me if I was happy. He also said he did feel love and when I challenged him that he didn't 'love me' because of his very promiscuous behaviour then he would ask me to observe and remember how his behaviour showed he loved me. For example going out of his way to help me etc ( even when it was terribly inconvenient) So from what you say this affair man felt happy but actually not love.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know what love is if you don't feel it. How do you know you are not feeling it? And how can you possibly compare the love we feel if you don't have that feeling. From Sally23
Sally23:
DeleteLove as I defined it above has been with humanity as long as we know. All literature has this theme and it's the same story. I know it exists because I've felt it. I can't describe it any better than I have already but with regards to your question: when you're in love, you KNOW it is love and nothing else. There's no "is this love?"
I'm sorry but I think sociopaths must heal before they can ever feel love.
Psychos are good at deliberately altering the meanings and usage of words. Love means what it means. You can deny it if you can't feel it or haven't experienced it - that's just ignorance - but psychos go far beyond. They deliberately do the opposite: deceive and abuse people and call it "love."
DeleteThis talk of seduction and love reminds me of a song I like, and if memory serves me correctly, M.E. Thomas featured it in a blog post.
ReplyDeletehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gTykWT7r-IM
[Verse 1]
Wish I may, wish I might
Find my one true love tonight
Do you think that he could be you?
If I pray really tight
Get into a fake bar fight
While I'm walking down the avenue
If I lay really quiet
I know that what I do isn't right
I can't stop what I love to do
So I murder love in the night
Watching them fall one by one, they fight
Did you think you'll love me too?
[Hook]
Baby I'm a sociopath
Sweet serial killer
On the warpath
Cause I love you just a little too much
I love you just a little too much
You can see me drinking Cherry Cola
Sweet serial killer
I left a love note
Said you know I love the thrill of the rush
You know I love the thrill of the rush
[Breakdown]
(You send me right to heaven)
Sweet serial killer
(I guess I'll see him over)
Do it for the thrill of the rush
Love you just a little too much, much
(You send me right to heaven)
Sweet serial killer
(I guess I'll see him over)
I love you just a little too much
Love you just a little too much, much
[Verse 2]
My black fire's burning bright
Maybe I'll go out tonight
We can paint the town in blue
I'm so hot, I ignite
Dancing in the dark and I shine
Like a light I'm luring you
Sneak up on you really quiet
Whisper, "Am I what your heart desires?"
I can be your ingenue
Keep you safe and inspired
Baby, let your fantasies unwind
We can do what you want to do
[Hook]
Baby I'm a sociopath
Sweet serial killer
On the warpath
Cause I love you just a little too much
I love you just a little too much
You can see me drinking Cherry Cola
Sweet serial killer
I left a love note
Said you know I love the thrill of the rush
You know I love the thrill of the rush
[Breakdown]
(You send me right to heaven)
Sweet serial killer
(I guess I'll see him over)
Do it for the thrill of the rush
Love you just a little too much, much
(You send me right to heaven)
Sweet serial killer
(I guess I'll see him over)
I love you just a little too much
Love you just a little too much, much
[Bridge] [2x]
Just have fun
(Wanna play you like a Gameboy)
I don't want one
(What's the thrill of the same toy?)
La-la, la-la, la, la-la, la-la, lie down, down
Oh!
[Hook]
Baby I'm a sociopath
Sweet serial killer
On the warpath
Cause I love you just a little too much
I love you just a little too much
You can see me drinking Cherry Cola
Sweet serial killer
I left a love note
Said you know I love the thrill of the rush
You know I love the thrill of the rush
[Breakdown]
(You send me right to heaven)
Sweet serial killer
(I guess I'll see him over)
Do it for the thrill of the rush
Love you just a little too much, much
(You send me right to heaven)
Sweet serial killer
(I guess I'll see him over)
I love you just a little too much
Love you just a little too much, much
Are we like slaves or pets to you?
ReplyDeleteI don't know why else, you would bother???
ReplyDeleteThe power???
ReplyDeleteImagine thinking you controlled someone else's pleasure and pain.
ReplyDeleteI understand.:) I missed your story, North. Were you married to a psychopath/sociopath? If so, how long were you with him?
DeleteI had an affair for 7 months with a psychopath. Various little incidents and coincidences since then. He took me to court and then tried to seduce me again, for example. But he won't speak to me now.
DeleteMy ex-husband (officially ex as of yesterday!) is a narcissistic sufferer of PTSD.
I wanted to blow up my life. What better way than with a charming psychopath ;P So many crazy stories I felt I was in a movie.
What's your story?
How long were you married? What was the origin of your ex's PTSD? Psychopaths are definitely charming!!! There are SO MANY CRAZY stories, aren't there? I believe my husband is an undiagnosed psychopath/sociopath. We have been together for 22 years-married for 14. It has definitely been like being in a movie!!! We are in the process of separating...
DeleteMarried 11 years. He was raped over a number of years as a young boy, and played that out in our marriage.
DeleteWhen I told him if my affair, he told me all the tricks my lover used on me. He knew because it had happened to him as a child and he himself had used them on other women.
That was scary!
My ex-husband freely acknowledged my lover was 'a master' - and that's saying something.
But I was well ripe for an affair. I was in a hell lot of pain and looking.
How is your separation going?
I am a female,Just now discovering I am a sociopath at 50. Getting in touch with feelings, trying to heal my core.
ReplyDeleteGrateful for this forum. Honestly believe there is no box. A recent relationship with a pp was my mirror to help unlock my lifelong quest to discovering why I've always felt like a misfit.
ReplyDeleteGrateful for this forum. Honestly believe there is no box. A recent relationship with a pp was my mirror to help unlock my lifelong quest to discovering why I've always felt like a misfit.
ReplyDeleteGrateful for this forum. Honestly believe there is no box. A recent relationship with a pp was my mirror to help unlock my lifelong quest to discovering why I've always felt like a misfit.
ReplyDeleteGrateful for this forum. Honestly believe there is no box. A recent relationship with a pp was my mirror to help unlock my lifelong quest to discovering why I've always felt like a misfit.
ReplyDeleteIn the name of God, The All-Merciful, The Compassionate.
ReplyDelete"God! There is no deity save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedes with Him save by His leave? He knows that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includes the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous."
Qur'an 2:255 - Verse of the Throne
This is the single most recited verse of the Qur'an.
Go away.
DeleteOh anonymous 11:08, you're the thoughtless go along type, who picks on the outsiders because those cool guys you admire initiated it. Whereas they argument and use their brains and give reasons you don't provide anything of value. You are a depressing thought that lets life appear yet again senseless. I don't like people who don't have anything to say. Go away. Or tell me sth about you instead. .____.
DeleteWhat has been needed to be spoken has been said already. Life is already meaningless, as humanity has no greater purpose despite what our egos would allow us to think.
DeleteSo everything important already has been said...And you add "go away." To underline the importance of what has been said so far, as a conclusion? Great job. Jonaid go away. Nice. I cannot help it, you still appear rather shallow to me.
DeleteAnd about the meaninglessness of life...despite this fact (well, a fact in my personal reality) it still does matter to me that things matter and so things magically matter in my reality. You call this self -delusion, but that's ok with me.
Tell me more about you. .___.
Why does what I have to say on the matter have such a significant (I assume) emotional impact upon you?
DeleteI don't mind coming off shallow. That can be seen as someone easily understood at the level of skin deep, and consequently if their is little left to be unknown at least outwardly then there is less reason to be afraid of me and more reason to like me. There's a possible plus side to every negative.
I respect your perspective as possibly being equally valid as anyone else's; despite the fact I may perceive my own reality a certain way, that does not mean I have the right to then pressume everyone else must see it the same way as I do simply because I say so. Of course I would much prefer it that way, it would make life a lot more convenient for me.
"What has been needed to be spoken has been said already. Life is already meaningless, as humanity has no greater purpose despite what our egos would allow us to think."
DeleteThis is not a personal attack against whoever made this comment. I thought similarly a few months ago. It's one of the best tricks of the devil and his minions that they've managed to portray sane, thinking people as "deluded" and "wishful" and "gullible" and "ego issues" etc etc. The last thing anyone wants to feel is stupid - to be duped into believing nonsense. That's why most people follow the majority - the majority, at least in our "intellectual" circles, is now apparently anti-God or atheistic / agnostic. It is very tempting to join the club and not appear "stupid." I was part of this gang but I always felt different and I know why now. Inside I was in agreement with much of what the religious said - the spirit of what they said - but I forced myself to throw it all out as deception NOT because I was afraid of coming across as stupid or not part of the gang. I did it because I was / am gay (exclusively homosexual orientation) and for the life of me I could not understand how a Creator could make me as I am and then set up all His apparent followers against me.
Ironically reading M.E.'s book helped in part to overcome this delusion. I will not explain exactly what my views are on homosexuality on this blog for reasons that are partly obvious and partly subjective.
So back to the comment: if I'm correct in sensing some level of disillusion in your comment, I have only suggestion for you: Call to God. If you're sincere, I assure you you're in for a surprise you've never expected and will never understand until / unless you experience it.
Good luck.
I should add: my sexual orientation was the primary reason why I thought I could never make sense of religion & God. It was my "trigger" but it led me to become a full-on, genuine atheist and, if I may, I am very well acquainted with the debate.
DeleteFrom anon to anon: of course my reply to your comment was exaggerated and by just reading those two words I sure came up with a lot of presumptuous non ideas about who you are and what your reasons may be.
DeleteI''ve been bored, nothing personal, so excuse me for being shallow myself.
I appreciate that you answered in this earnest way besides my aggressive approach to you.
.___.
I'm sorry I ever met the sociopath that I am currently trying to rid my life of. I am planning (strategizing like he does lol) some things that will make it a final departure from my life...he will never want to be with me after this. I am getting my first love...my high school sweetheart....back. Someone with a heart and soul...Oh,how I've missed him dearly.
ReplyDeleteThis is a reasonable opportunity for me to vent something that's been bothering me for a long time...
ReplyDeleteI am a sociopath,
Unsure exactly why, Ive become obsessed with being useful, it's not enough for me to exist, or be pleased, I need to be functional. I am highly educated (informally) and I understand the rather brutal concept that we have 4 billion years to get off this planet which is something that's not going to happen unless we start working together. Personally I would like for my genetics to continue beyond 4 billion years, maybe I'm a little long cited but it might actually take four billion years for us to start getting over the useless religions that plauge us and, emotional cascades that influence us..
"But what does this have to do with seduction"
Chillax, I'm explaining that.
You people (normal people, sorry not you people sociopath people)
You normal people, are pissing me off right now..
We (sociopaths) get accused of being so horrible..
We seduce, onclive, and manipulate, but have you ever considered that you deserve it?
I mean seriously, you guys can't seem to go one century without blowing each other up over what religion you "feel" is right..
Or what person you're killing because your "mad" at because they just don't "get" you..
Or hell, when you kill yourself because you seem to get depressed.
I would seem to suffer from none of these problems, frankly I could care less if you're dead or alive but I prefer most of you alive because I'm going to need you to help figure out a way to get off of this planet...
I've heard many "normal" people say that sociopaths are "evil" or "killers"
Seriously, have you looked at how many normal people kill each other. I bet your percentage is higher than ours..
Anyway..
Remember that seduction thing, *sigh*
Of course I'm going to lure you with honeyed words, I'm going to twist the way that you feel..
It's the only way to get you to react to me, sometimes I feel like it's the only way to get you to react at all.
I cant tell you how often I really get irritated with how to dense the general population is, you people can't even see what's good for you. I'm only trying to show you a broader perspective than you are capable of, I'm simply more objective.
And then I realize something... everybody I touch seems to burn.
It doesn't matter how much I try to help them they fall apart. And then they wonder why I'm antisocial, and I'm doing it again, the same thing I did earlier.. justifying my abhorrent behavior.
But then I have to realize something everything I just said is based on logic not emotion so I'm not wrong, I thought this out a hundred times my logic is flawless.
My seduction by manipulation might be justified.. even if it is seeking my own selfish means, my own selfish means is the perpetuation of everybody human via cohabitation and eventual evacuation of this planet so... I'm selfishly benevolent..
Justified?
Thoughts?
I have a few thoughts.
DeleteLet's separate your concerns here. I'm reading:
1. Consider advancement and propagation of the human species into the infinite future a priority, the vehicle for an endless genetic legacy. Collaboration required.
2. Not keen on being blamed. Also, not keen on being blamed. Damaging behaviour is justified on account of point 1.
Shall we address point 1?
Firstly, it is quite distinct from your sociopathy. You might find any number of neurotypicals sharing this vision.
You will also find many sociopaths and neurotypicals who *don't* share your vision. Is it good? Well, by what standard do you claim anything to be good? You just want your genes to replicate forever. There's nothing good or bad about it. Good and bad are purely contextual.
We are simply individuals in a species in a biome in a universe. How can we *objectively* draw any line and say something or other is good? It's good for an individual for a particular objective.
So, perhaps you don't agree with me. Perhaps you disagree with A's views on religion, or with Jonaid's or with Mr Hyde's... or with anyone else's. You may think your viewpoint is more "logical"...
but behaviour is never logical.
We are all irrational creatures with rational capabilities. Reason is applied post-facto. And that goes for sociopaths too.
Behaviour is always survival driven, from the brainstem based on beliefs that may be purely non-sensical yet operate effectively enough for use to survive on a daily basis.
We don't need to be perfect or right because there is no absolute truth.
We need only survive and reproduce.
Just think how much time is dedicated to thinking about sex, pursuing sex, having sex. Why do you think that might be? You already know why.
So now, feelings are evolution's gift for navigating social situations. That is, in fact, their purpose. Combine that with
So that a sociopath lacks depth of feeling does not mean they are more logical. It means they act more naturally for their own survival and can rationalise *that* because they don't feel the importance of collaborating socially as much as neurotypicals. But your behaviour is equally (I imagine and will hopefully be in a position to test at some point) survival driven.
The human brain is evolved to convince. That is why you attempt to justify based on your "benevolent" vision for humanity (by your own words, this is about the longevity of your own genes rather than benevolence anyway).
You are a person who manipulates to survive and thrive and ensure the success of his(? I presume, since concern for species longevity is far more prevalent in male humans) genepool.
There is no justification required. Sociopathy is a perfectly valid mode of operation. You simply need to better influence the conversation.
You make interesting points about neurotypical violence. Keep in mind that sociopaths *are* dramatically overrepresented in prison populations so I question the soundness of your argument. Nevertheless, neurotypicals do commit atrocities.
Can you see, then, that at a species level everything is competition for resources, competition to ensure the transmission of genes? Violence, war, racism, normalisation. The works.
A few more questions:
- do you like to be damaged?
- do you like things to be taken from you?
- do you get pissed at someone who diminishes your resources?
Objective enough for you?
As for point 2:
DeleteBlame is an indicator your social position is at risk. It's perfectly natural that you should dislike it and attempt to mitigate it.
Remember I said the human brain is designed to convince? You're attempting to convince us your manipulations and seductions are appropriate in the context of your overarching benevolent goal.
You don't succeed in this, because as I have pointed out, your motive is actually not benevolent - that's your post-facto rationalisation of wanting your genepool to continue indefinitely, ie for your legacy to live forever.
BUt even if you *did* benevolenting wish the species to continue:
a) why the fuck is manipulating and seducing people the best way to achieve it? Can you not think of better ways?
b) you haven't even tried to convince us this is a cause worthy of investment. A cause that compares more favourably as a business case (why are human brains designed to convince - because we must together make good decisions about allocation of resources and THIS is where our reasoning faculties come into play) than religion or any other world view.
People operate in the here and now because the here and now are where species survival plays out.
People don't like being damaged or having their resources (including personal energy) depleted because it affects ability to survive and promote genepool success NOW. We are wired to be pissed at that to protect ourselves and our genepool.
You exist with a mode of operation that is perfectly valid and successful at low frequencies in the population.
Now please stop whining and coming with lame-ass arguments and think about ways to convince the general population that you are not a monster. Convince them you can add value to collective decision making about resource allocation.
Or do I need to spell everything out for you superhuman genius creatures. You shit me sometimes too. FFS. I can't believe none of you have thought of these things. You're too busy hiding to challenge norms.
Meh, too many thoughts all at once...
Delete"Combine that with..." in my first reply should read
Combine that with our species' survival being largely dependent on collaboration, you see why humans act in groups with behaviour that can be modelled similarly to ant communities. What you consider dense is another very successful component of our evolutionary success.
Why is "objectivity" important or more useful than collective undertakings and herd behaviour. It's a nice addition, that, if deployed skilfully, can improve human investments and help you reach your goals.
You're too busy hiding to challenge norms.
Delete^LOL! This is a valid critique. Those of us in positions of leadership have to be subversive. We manifest it in ways that people can deal with, that will not undermine our capacity to function within our spheres of influence.
Kevin Dutton has written some good books that seek to demystify and "normalize" psychopathic traits.
I have read "The Good Psychopath's Guide to Success"- which wasn't very helpful for me, because it seeks to empower readers to "turn up" the dial (intensity) of their psychopathic traits. If anything, I need to turn some of them down. Still- it is useful in that it destigmatizes the disorder and highlights some characteristics that can be harnessed pro-socially- in a manner that is holistically beneficial.
Yeah but A he doesn't challenge either. He uses the current fluffiness around the word good. There's definitely value in his work, probably lots and probably a lot more than I give him credit for... But he's trying to jam sociopaths into the current mould when the current mould needs breaking.
DeleteI think it's a start. A couple of decades ago "psychopathy" was truly synonymous with "monstrous"... And as our good friend J.J has illustrated, the stigma remains- even among subsets of populations whose collective behavior and "magical thinking" makes your average psycho look like Pollyanna. :P
DeleteWhen I first started learning about the disorder and everything started "clicking into place" for me, I was vaguely distraught. I had a mini personal pity party in which I bemoaned the fact that I just HAD to have the same thing that fucked up Jeffrey Dahmer wrong with me, lol. It couldn't be something simpler, or less vilified.
But with that came acceptance. And it is only when you truly start OWNING something that you can harness it effectively. And that is a process that takes time to work through.
I have some other thoughts I'd like to share... And I also want to reply to your post at the top of this blog entry- but I wanted to read it over carefully and respond when I have the time to be thoughtful. Which is not at the moment. I should be working. (Not like that's ever stopped me before, lol) I'll write more later.
DeleteIt's like Morpheus explaining to Neo that agents are trapped in a world of rules that Neo is able to break.
DeleteManipulation and lying and seduction hotwire *implicit patterns of behaviour*. That they break some moral code is tangential because it's not the moral code driving neurotypical behaviour, it's our wiring and life experience.
Neurotypicals very rarely go around wondering if such and such an action is moral. People trapped in rigid control structures do and sterile philosophers pose these questions but the rest of us do what we can do within *negotiated rule structures*. My colleagues and I were discussing this yesterday. We all ignore rules we can get away with breaking.
Like I said good is always contextual - good in light of a particular purpose.
The way forward is awareness. This means updating our concept maps. They need a lot of updating.
Shift the paradigm from conforming to morality to contributing positively to human resource allocation decisions. We don't exist for the sake of morality! We are all wired to survive.
Normalisation becomes easier for you and awareness becomes both more imperative and closer for neurotypicals.
'But with that came acceptance. And it is only when you truly start OWNING something that you can harness it effectively. And that is a process that takes time to work through.'
DeleteExactly. There's lots to be done to help everyone harness our natures far more effectively. Would love to work with you for better understanding.
'I should be working'
I hear you. Nothing between 9 and 5 from me for a while...
I understand your perspective and I disagree with it, but only insofar as I *do* believe in objective good and evil.
DeleteEven with a "prosthetic moral code", I have trouble contributing positively. I would have absolutely no desire to be a productive member of society apart from it. I would take care of my own, and do whatever I want. In part, that is already the case. The ONLY reason I have chosen a more altruistic path is on account of my spiritual convictions. I am slowly starting to integrate some of my sociopathic traits at work. One example might be how I no longer pretend to be emotionally distraught by the personal tragedies of others. I state unequivocally that I don't feel remorse for the mistakes I have made because I think guilt is useless, unless it can engender transformation- and I have never experienced that before. Essentially, I am being more true to myself. It has been liberating. And in fact- much to my surprise- it has bolstered my leadership even more.
But it has also caused one intelligent co-worker to look at me quizzically and ask point-blank: "You're a sociopath, aren't you?" For once, my glib- ass self was (momentarily) speechless. If these people truly *knew* me- if I gave this label as a contextual paradigm for my leadership -they would deem me morally unfit to play the role I do- ironically, for the reasons I am *particularly* qualified to fulfill it. And while I might fairly easily rebuild and redefine my life from the ground up, a lot of people would suffer in consequence. I still have to tread carefully.
Will ponder, thanks.
DeleteMaybe the collective resource allocation angle doesn't work... I think the rest still fits... Awareness and being oneself are really what I'm going for.
The world is competitive; it's the therapeutic state that wants us to feel entitled to personal safety.
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ReplyDeleteReading these posts is like watching children jumping out of vehicles on the expressway. You're screaming at them but they just laugh and mock you because you're desperately trying to save them.
ReplyDelete"Shut up idiot and let me be free!"
I'm grown up and smart. Look at all these fancy words I know.
ReplyDeleteOh and since children never love to be alone in their "creativity" they need to get others to come along. We'll make fun of the "stupid" ones who stay buckled. If you can't handle the REAL world, you make up one in your mind that suits you and then force others - ever so subtly - to join. All the while you are being played by someone else - you're not the only one playing with others. WHERE is your reason?
ReplyDeletef you can't handle the REAL world, you make up one in your mind that suits you and then force others - ever so subtly - to join. All the while you are being played by someone else - you're not the only one playing with others. WHERE is your reason?
DeleteWhat, you mean like how bronze-aged Islam is so out of touch with the REAL modern world, that it makes up one to suit its agenda, producing hordes of radicals who seek to force others- albeit not very subtly- to join, or die? (You know that's Vader's slogan... Right? ;)
Who is being "played", Jihadi? WHERE is YOUR reason?
To the oft-used tactic called whining "you are mean," "you judge," "you don't listen to me," "you don't answer me," etc etc. I'm sorry I don't know how to explain things to people who are either incapable or unwilling to actually lend an ear.
ReplyDeleteYou need to learn civility before you can discuss serious matters with me. I've wasted too much time trying to put sense into self-obsessed "intellectuals."
And yet, YOU'RE the one judging everyone here, calling us demons and worse- and accusing me of being SO mean that you refuse to address my points at all- in spite of the fact that I have presented certain objections very civilly.
DeleteDo you think it "civil" to call those who disagree with your worldview "minions" and "devils"?
Do you think it is "civilized" to promote a worldview that normalizes the subjugation of women and normalizes pedophilia and the crucifixion of "apostates"?
If the prerequisite for discussing "serious matters" with you involves whitewashing my words to avoid offending your "sensitivities" over the unequivocal statement of objective truths concerning your prophet and religion- then *you* are the one with the problem. I think that is perfectly evident to all of the "sincere readers" here.
Zen is having the heart and soul of a little child.
ReplyDeleteYou give children - and everyone else - far too little credit.
We don't want your box, Jonaid. That's your prison.
Your mission here is complete. God releases you from bearing these infidels any longer.
DeleteThey are deaf and will suffer.
Off you go now.
LOL.
DeleteIt's just so much fun to feed him his own words and watch him flail, though.
DeleteI don't mind if you want to stay, J.J. I quite like playing with you. XD
I can't help but indulge myself sometimes too. But he is, as you put it, weak. So he's more like an irritating fly than a worthy combatant.
DeleteJeffrey Dahmer is an interesting character. A sociopathic relative mentioned him to me a few years ago and when I looked him up I felt something very uncomfortable inside. It was as if I somehow understood him (not the murders or anything) but some of his sexual proclivities (not the crazy stuff) and how he came across so normal. Now I was NEVER like him thank God but I felt like "if my circumstances were different I could possibly end up down the same road."
ReplyDeleteVery chilling. For sociopaths and psychopaths he should be a big WARNING sign. Dahmer is not an anomaly or an exception. He was just brilliant. He started off not intending to kill. The second murder remains a mystery to this day (even he doesn't remember how / why he did it). The rest followed and it gradually got worse with each kill. By the time he got caught he practically asked for it and he cooperated all the way through, admitting everything.
At least he repented in prison. You can call me "judgmental" but I think Dahmer - if he was sincere in repentance - will ultimately be "saved" - God-willing. However, one should be wary of thinking that since God is All-Merciful they can carry on and just "repent" afterwards. First of all, such a "repentance" is not genuine and therefore likely to be rejected. Second, according to the Quran, God only allows those people who He wills to seek forgiveness. I suspect people with this attitude will not end up actually repenting.
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ReplyDelete