A reader recently wrote about the connection between sociopathy and post traumatic stress disorder:
I think I had post-traumatic stress disorder for two years. Your book however is the closest I have ever felt to being understood. In which case is it possible to be a sociopath for two years of your life? Or are the two related? I hadn't seen any similar links on your blog but I thought I'd share my story in case there are others like mine.
I am not sure if you can learn to be a sociopath, or if I have been one my whole life, or, indeed, writing this, I have been "cured". I had a happy childhood as an expat only child. Life was exciting, I was loved. I 'think' I used to be empathetic..I was always very concerned with people's problems, but it's hard to tell if it was curiosity and wanting to solve the puzzles in their lives or because I was upset by their hurt. I hated criticism, but because I was never wrong, not because I ever felt I had done wrong. To me, other children were nice, but rather stupid and didn't interest me much. My favourite games to play I would role play as a successful adult. I was quite quiet, perceived as shy and unassuming, and I constantly felt underestimated - a secret I saw to my advantage and loved. Aside from this, I feel I was a normal-ish child. I had more interest in over-achieving at school and being the best than of dealing with my peers, I enjoyed company when I had it but was quite content to be left alone. Perhaps had I grown up with siblings as competition my attitude would have been different.
As a teenager I was quiet but popular, seen as smart and sweet and liked by everyone even though I feel nobody really knew me. Through travelling I had learnt at a young age to adapt, to blend in, to make new friends. I found girls brought too much drama and needless emotional turmoil to my life and I didn't understand their mind games or fake attitudes, so my friends have always primarily been boys. I like that when they had a problem with each other it would be addressed with a hit to the face and be forgotten the next day. I hate unnecessary emotions. I also have a great disdain for violence, more because that also inevitably leads to gossiping emotional drama than because of the actual violence. I would have no qualms punching someone in the face given the opportunity and would greatly enjoy it. I was always the "peace keeper" breaking up fights in the playground. Most people saw me as the sensitive soul doing a good deed. I am in fact incapable of watching a fight and not being involved, I would have loved being hit by one of the bullies only to be able to beat him until I was restrained, but, primarily, I loved my power. I loved how ballsy I felt as a small framed girl being able to stand in the face of someone the rest of the school cowered to, I enjoyed making him feel weak, I enjoyed knowing that he couldn't hurt me physically or emotionally.
I don't think I've ever deliberately tried to manipulate people unless they've crossed me. I don't get a thrill out of manipulation because I find people's emotions such a nuisance and because ultimately, I like being seen as a nice person and don't want to unravel my own reputation. I am an exceptional liar and mid-teens realised I revelled in playing the murderous, sultry villains in drama plays...my "acting" was in fact just a subsection of my inner self.
It takes a lot to make me angry. But when I am a shift occurs in my mind and indifference becomes cold, malicious hatred. I don't have an exceptional regard for myself (probably a result of abusive tendencies and relationships with other sociopaths in an attempt to prove myself I was "normal"), but I know I am a survivor, I know I am pretty and flirt with almost everyone, I am charming and, when I am doing something I love, incredibly intelligent. I have never viewed people with malice, rather with a kind of nonchalance. I enjoy unravelling the ins and outs of people's stories and personalities, not because I will use that in a game against them, but because their self-discovery is my game. I enjoy working out people before they've even began to work out themselves. I think the way I view myself is much the same way I view other people. I have always been hyper introspective, I like to be the best, including at understanding myself, and perhaps that's when I start to runaway, when people start to get to high up the scale of understanding me, and I'll do something "out of character" (which for me really is all just a part of my character) and push them away.
I have very high sexual needs, so I suppose it has always seemed more pragmatic to have long-term relationships to satisfy this. For this reason I haven't been able to engage in any same-sex relationships as I experimented with as a child (I try to be faithful these days, except when seeking revenge). I like that men can be manipulated with just the raise of an eyebrow. I am a nice person and am good at adapting to being the perfect partner. Most of my relationships have been littered with arguments, "you're too independent", "you don't seem to even care", "you have too many male friends", "you never talk to me", "why didn't you ask for my advice"?! I get annoyed when people take my easygoing nature and uncomplicated pleasantness for granted. I am nice because it is convenient for me to be so and I enjoy the rewards of affection I get in return. When people confuse being nice with naivety or stupidity I see red. Perhaps this is why I surround myself with other suitable suitors that I claim are just innocent friends. I like people to know I have replacements lined up so that they treat me better. I also like people to flirt with when my current partner is being too emotionally needy. I find over-emotional pathetic.
So far perhaps my story sounds bland, I am potentially mildly sociopathic but I am not interested enough in the consequences of creating emotional havoc to indulge in any tendencies. Or perhaps I am just an incredibly laid back person, an intelligent and independent only child.
However, when I was sixteen my father was diagnosed with brain cancer. I was very close to my dad and my mum so this hurt me, a lot. My whole life became a soap opera, which I hated. I pushed myself even harder with my studies and did everything to try and make my dad happy and to make our lives as normal as possible. I hated anyone coming to our house, I felt insanely protective of our tiny three person bubble and anyone trying to burst that. I felt like if I allowed my emotions out I would be giving into them indefinitely and wouldn't succeed, so I would tell myself I was being pathetic and the emotions would fade out after about 5 seconds. Eventually the emotions just stopped. I don't remember when or how but I just stopped feeling. I was calm and composed, I would work on limited sleep and little food, since eating bored me and sleep seemed a waste of time. I spoke to almost nobody. I chose when I would go to and walk out of school. At the beginning I got a thrill out of concocting the most elaborate lies to bunk off but by the end I enjoyed that I could just get away with it. I would go home and work alone, I found my peers stupid and painfully immature and didn't think there was anything a teacher could teach me that I couldn't teach myself. I went home to avoid my incredible urges to punch someone in the face or throttle someone just to wake them up to reality, let them feel real pain and to be able to enjoy the lack of emotion I would have in doing it. I would imagine strange occurrences in my head where I would be able to exert my heightened coldness to undo people. I know I could have killed someone and would have enjoyed it.
About a year after my fathers death I began to get a few emotions back. I remember reading a joke and feeling shock when I remembered how to laugh. Gradually over four more years other emotions have come back to me. During a brief encounter with a counsellor (I was more intent on unravelling her than letting her in so I gave up) I was told I had had post-traumatic stress. Nobody ever diagnosed me at the time, but it seemed a reasonable evaluation and one I had considered several times before.
I can now say that I have the majority of emotions that I had before my dads illness, I "feel" as well as logically calculate that I am happy, and I am very much in love. I care about my friends and invest a lot of time in them and enjoying their company. I trained in architecture, but, learning I couldn't be the best quickly enough or earn enough money, I switched to international development. Most people think I am a saint, they don't understand that I do what I do because I'm good at it, I like helping people for my own sake and I'm one of the few people capable of finding logical solutions to over-emotional disasters. I've been through enough I can be clinical in disaster analysis. I hope that I can undo the incompetency of previous development failures and I like feeling like I am perceived as a "good", intellectual person..even if I don't perceive it myself as "good", I just think I'm highly competent at helping people, mainly because most of the time I can detach from empathy. This said, there is this part of me that still switches beyond indifference, if I find someone pathetic, if someone angers me, if I'm caught in the wrong mood, my brain switches from feeling like I care, beyond indifference, to wanting to hurt them. In those moments the most important people in my life mean absolutely nothing to me. I would of course never say any of this to them, but these are the questions that interest me:
1. Is post-traumatic stress just a branch of sociopathy? Or am I just one or the other?
3. Does everyone have sociopathic tendencies under extreme conditions as a built in survival mechanism or is it just a few of us?
4. Under different circumstances, at what point or if ever would i have shown sociopathic tendencies?
5. Have I really been able to undo the extremes of my sociopathic post-traumatic stress and go back to the extent of my emotions before they cut off? Will I be able to learn new emotions? Will I ever forget how to "switch off"?
I think I had post-traumatic stress disorder for two years. Your book however is the closest I have ever felt to being understood. In which case is it possible to be a sociopath for two years of your life? Or are the two related? I hadn't seen any similar links on your blog but I thought I'd share my story in case there are others like mine.
I am not sure if you can learn to be a sociopath, or if I have been one my whole life, or, indeed, writing this, I have been "cured". I had a happy childhood as an expat only child. Life was exciting, I was loved. I 'think' I used to be empathetic..I was always very concerned with people's problems, but it's hard to tell if it was curiosity and wanting to solve the puzzles in their lives or because I was upset by their hurt. I hated criticism, but because I was never wrong, not because I ever felt I had done wrong. To me, other children were nice, but rather stupid and didn't interest me much. My favourite games to play I would role play as a successful adult. I was quite quiet, perceived as shy and unassuming, and I constantly felt underestimated - a secret I saw to my advantage and loved. Aside from this, I feel I was a normal-ish child. I had more interest in over-achieving at school and being the best than of dealing with my peers, I enjoyed company when I had it but was quite content to be left alone. Perhaps had I grown up with siblings as competition my attitude would have been different.
As a teenager I was quiet but popular, seen as smart and sweet and liked by everyone even though I feel nobody really knew me. Through travelling I had learnt at a young age to adapt, to blend in, to make new friends. I found girls brought too much drama and needless emotional turmoil to my life and I didn't understand their mind games or fake attitudes, so my friends have always primarily been boys. I like that when they had a problem with each other it would be addressed with a hit to the face and be forgotten the next day. I hate unnecessary emotions. I also have a great disdain for violence, more because that also inevitably leads to gossiping emotional drama than because of the actual violence. I would have no qualms punching someone in the face given the opportunity and would greatly enjoy it. I was always the "peace keeper" breaking up fights in the playground. Most people saw me as the sensitive soul doing a good deed. I am in fact incapable of watching a fight and not being involved, I would have loved being hit by one of the bullies only to be able to beat him until I was restrained, but, primarily, I loved my power. I loved how ballsy I felt as a small framed girl being able to stand in the face of someone the rest of the school cowered to, I enjoyed making him feel weak, I enjoyed knowing that he couldn't hurt me physically or emotionally.
I don't think I've ever deliberately tried to manipulate people unless they've crossed me. I don't get a thrill out of manipulation because I find people's emotions such a nuisance and because ultimately, I like being seen as a nice person and don't want to unravel my own reputation. I am an exceptional liar and mid-teens realised I revelled in playing the murderous, sultry villains in drama plays...my "acting" was in fact just a subsection of my inner self.
It takes a lot to make me angry. But when I am a shift occurs in my mind and indifference becomes cold, malicious hatred. I don't have an exceptional regard for myself (probably a result of abusive tendencies and relationships with other sociopaths in an attempt to prove myself I was "normal"), but I know I am a survivor, I know I am pretty and flirt with almost everyone, I am charming and, when I am doing something I love, incredibly intelligent. I have never viewed people with malice, rather with a kind of nonchalance. I enjoy unravelling the ins and outs of people's stories and personalities, not because I will use that in a game against them, but because their self-discovery is my game. I enjoy working out people before they've even began to work out themselves. I think the way I view myself is much the same way I view other people. I have always been hyper introspective, I like to be the best, including at understanding myself, and perhaps that's when I start to runaway, when people start to get to high up the scale of understanding me, and I'll do something "out of character" (which for me really is all just a part of my character) and push them away.
I have very high sexual needs, so I suppose it has always seemed more pragmatic to have long-term relationships to satisfy this. For this reason I haven't been able to engage in any same-sex relationships as I experimented with as a child (I try to be faithful these days, except when seeking revenge). I like that men can be manipulated with just the raise of an eyebrow. I am a nice person and am good at adapting to being the perfect partner. Most of my relationships have been littered with arguments, "you're too independent", "you don't seem to even care", "you have too many male friends", "you never talk to me", "why didn't you ask for my advice"?! I get annoyed when people take my easygoing nature and uncomplicated pleasantness for granted. I am nice because it is convenient for me to be so and I enjoy the rewards of affection I get in return. When people confuse being nice with naivety or stupidity I see red. Perhaps this is why I surround myself with other suitable suitors that I claim are just innocent friends. I like people to know I have replacements lined up so that they treat me better. I also like people to flirt with when my current partner is being too emotionally needy. I find over-emotional pathetic.
So far perhaps my story sounds bland, I am potentially mildly sociopathic but I am not interested enough in the consequences of creating emotional havoc to indulge in any tendencies. Or perhaps I am just an incredibly laid back person, an intelligent and independent only child.
However, when I was sixteen my father was diagnosed with brain cancer. I was very close to my dad and my mum so this hurt me, a lot. My whole life became a soap opera, which I hated. I pushed myself even harder with my studies and did everything to try and make my dad happy and to make our lives as normal as possible. I hated anyone coming to our house, I felt insanely protective of our tiny three person bubble and anyone trying to burst that. I felt like if I allowed my emotions out I would be giving into them indefinitely and wouldn't succeed, so I would tell myself I was being pathetic and the emotions would fade out after about 5 seconds. Eventually the emotions just stopped. I don't remember when or how but I just stopped feeling. I was calm and composed, I would work on limited sleep and little food, since eating bored me and sleep seemed a waste of time. I spoke to almost nobody. I chose when I would go to and walk out of school. At the beginning I got a thrill out of concocting the most elaborate lies to bunk off but by the end I enjoyed that I could just get away with it. I would go home and work alone, I found my peers stupid and painfully immature and didn't think there was anything a teacher could teach me that I couldn't teach myself. I went home to avoid my incredible urges to punch someone in the face or throttle someone just to wake them up to reality, let them feel real pain and to be able to enjoy the lack of emotion I would have in doing it. I would imagine strange occurrences in my head where I would be able to exert my heightened coldness to undo people. I know I could have killed someone and would have enjoyed it.
About a year after my fathers death I began to get a few emotions back. I remember reading a joke and feeling shock when I remembered how to laugh. Gradually over four more years other emotions have come back to me. During a brief encounter with a counsellor (I was more intent on unravelling her than letting her in so I gave up) I was told I had had post-traumatic stress. Nobody ever diagnosed me at the time, but it seemed a reasonable evaluation and one I had considered several times before.
I can now say that I have the majority of emotions that I had before my dads illness, I "feel" as well as logically calculate that I am happy, and I am very much in love. I care about my friends and invest a lot of time in them and enjoying their company. I trained in architecture, but, learning I couldn't be the best quickly enough or earn enough money, I switched to international development. Most people think I am a saint, they don't understand that I do what I do because I'm good at it, I like helping people for my own sake and I'm one of the few people capable of finding logical solutions to over-emotional disasters. I've been through enough I can be clinical in disaster analysis. I hope that I can undo the incompetency of previous development failures and I like feeling like I am perceived as a "good", intellectual person..even if I don't perceive it myself as "good", I just think I'm highly competent at helping people, mainly because most of the time I can detach from empathy. This said, there is this part of me that still switches beyond indifference, if I find someone pathetic, if someone angers me, if I'm caught in the wrong mood, my brain switches from feeling like I care, beyond indifference, to wanting to hurt them. In those moments the most important people in my life mean absolutely nothing to me. I would of course never say any of this to them, but these are the questions that interest me:
1. Is post-traumatic stress just a branch of sociopathy? Or am I just one or the other?
3. Does everyone have sociopathic tendencies under extreme conditions as a built in survival mechanism or is it just a few of us?
4. Under different circumstances, at what point or if ever would i have shown sociopathic tendencies?
5. Have I really been able to undo the extremes of my sociopathic post-traumatic stress and go back to the extent of my emotions before they cut off? Will I be able to learn new emotions? Will I ever forget how to "switch off"?
My psychologist thinks that my sociopathic tendencies are a means of coping with traumatic incidents. I'm not sure I agree, but it's an interesting idea.
ReplyDeleteI was raped in high school. It didn't bug me, but the loss of control was annoying. What really messed with my head was that I saw rape victims being portrayed as these traumatized husks in the media, and 12-year-old me ended up asking: what's wrong with me? Why am I not like this? Am I a monster?
I definitely think it's possible to don the mantle of a sociopath as a reaction, be it to anxiety, trauma or just a general dissatisfaction with the interference of empathy.
Wait...you were raped and it "didnt bug you"?
DeleteI was held down and fucked by two people a year older than me. It hurt, and I didn't like that, and it was inconvenient to lose power, but past that there was no feeling of shame/violation. That's what I mean.
DeleteAnon 1:09-Did you tell anyone, and were the people who raped you punished???
DeleteI was molested as a child, and it didn't bother me either, at least not in the way you see people crying about their experiences in the media. I think I felt betrayed, and I've had trouble forming relationships with other men as a result. But I don't feel traumatized by it.
DeleteHieronymous Bot-Did you tell anyone, and was the molester(s) punished??? I'm sorry you've had trouble forming relationships with other men, as a result...
DeleteNo, I never told anyone about it. I didn't want anyone to make a big fuss.
DeleteHieronymous Bot-I hope you are able to form relationships with men in the future.:) Not all men are like the men who molested you...
DeleteAnonymous 1:37 : Nope, didn't tell anyone, they weren't punished. I continued to have sex with them afterwards; some of it was consensual, some of it wasn't. Weird situation, but it never struck me as anything more than an inconvenience.
DeleteAnon 10:16-It might still be possible to prosecute them, if you wanted to. They had no right to inconvenience you...
DeleteIt doesn't matter. I'm too old to make friends at this point anyway.
DeleteHieronymous Bot-You are NEVER TOO OLD, to make new friends.:) If you are alive-there is hope...
DeleteNot really. There have been studies that show that it becomes increasingly difficult after age 30. I've burned enough bridges in my time that the thought of making friends that are more than useful acquaintances just seems tiresome.
DeleteAnonymous 10:56: that would imply I cared enough to do so. I don't. People inconvenience me when they walk slowly in malls, that doesn't mean I want to lock them all away.
DeleteActually, slow people at malls inconvenience me more than my rapists. If I'm walking around a mall, I actually have somewhere to be.
A common misconception about sociopathy is that we have little to no emotions. I often hear it brought up in conversation in public when people happen to be speaking about sociopathy. It's not that we have little or entirely lack emotions, but that they're egocentric and fleeting, often difficult to grasp or understand sometimes. Our emotions exist in a sociopathic context, something so alien that normal people wouldn't necessarily understand because they've known nothing different from their empathic emotional context.
ReplyDeleteI think that her callousness and obvious suppression of emotions, emotophobia, are simply coping mechanisms brought about by her PTSD. Besides that, as far as I can discern, she sounds like a normal person with a bit of an ego.
ESTP Sociopath
Yeah. I have emotions, but they are self-centered and relate back to myself. I can feel happy, sad, angry, frustrated, etc. But pretty much only for myself, not for other people.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteEtsp do you think she might seem like a "Normal" person to you because sociopathic behavior is your normal?
ReplyDeletePerhaps, I think that my sociopathic perspective maybe gives me a certain bias towards the behaviors of normal people.
DeleteESTP Sociopath
Anon 4:49-I am non-socio, and OP sounds socio to me...
DeleteAnon 4:49 I am also non and they seem like a sociopath to me as well. I am always shocked that it's not more obvious to sociopaths here. I find that extremely interesting.
DeleteAnon 1:40-I completely agree!!!
DeleteFucking hell I feel like I lived through that, like a movie i wish I hadn't seen.
ReplyDeleteThere's lots of disorders with symptoms that resemble sociopathy - narcissism, schizoid, pseudo-psychopathic schizophrenia...doesn't mean they're actually from the same cause or related to sociopathy.
OP sounds like she was spoiled and used to being the centre of everyone's world before she dealt badly with her dad's death and it made her a stronger person, in some ways.
"1. Is post-traumatic stress just a branch of sociopathy? Or am I just one or the other?
ReplyDelete3. Does everyone have sociopathic tendencies under extreme conditions as a built in survival mechanism or is it just a few of us?
4. Under different circumstances, at what point or if ever would i have shown sociopathic tendencies?
5. Have I really been able to undo the extremes of my sociopathic post-traumatic stress and go back to the extent of my emotions before they cut off? Will I be able to learn new emotions? Will I ever forget how to "switch off"?"
You coped with your fathers death with emotional numbing because the pain of losing him (especially as a teenager) was too much for you,it doesnt make ptsd a branch of sociopathy,just because sociopaths lack empathy it doesnt mean other disorders which involve a lack of empathy stem from it.
Sociopathic behavior has a spectrum,everyone has these characteristics.
You're closer to being neurotypical.
I can't remember where I got this quote, but I just came across it again, and wanted to share it: "And isn’t it interesting that these things that matter so much in life, things we argue about, labels that define & divide us in the years when our eyes are bright and horizons endless, matter so little when death arrives? Maybe that’s the biggest joke of all."
ReplyDeleteI also just came across this one: "Tragedy + Time = Comedy"...
ReplyDeleteSomething that I'm curious about, is what normal people perceive to be too absurd to be true when they hear it said to them that they must suspect it to not be true, that it's too good to be true. Speaking for myself at least, when I hear someone tell a story of something they experienced, I either take it for its face value or inquire further for information if the story is relevant enough for me to delve deeper for answers.
ReplyDeleteLike the time I was sitting beneath a bridge at night in town where a trail ran along the slew that the bridge went over, I was smoking a cigarette and an acquaintance approached me to inquire if I would want to join a group of assassins who would kill unsavory characters (the same man I mentioned before when I was speaking of how I ruin people). Does it really sound so far out?
Or the time I was downtown and I happened to be with a man who lost his drug paraphernalia, saw reason to blame me for the loss of his items and blamed me for it, so he wanted to kill me. He said he was an angel sent by God though to earth, and it was his duty to escort me safely to my destination. Does that also also sound too strange to be true?
To the external perspective, perhaps these things do sound too absurd to be true, but these are my real experiences, and all I can do is express my narrative and hope that it is accepted as truth. My roommate's life story for example, is any of it true? Is his older brother's past life all a lie? I don't know, and perhaps will never know unless I find the means to verify these facts, so I choose to accept what has been said as true. Either way it matters not to me, if it is all a facade, lies. None of it truly matters or impresses me, but it does serve it's purpose in broadening my perspective and understanding of the world around me. People and the narratives they choose to tell can be so interesting.
ESTP Sociopath
ESTP-I find sociopaths to be literal, and take things for "face value". I believe that an acquaintance propositioned you to kill unsavory characters. I also believe that the man who lost his drug paraphernalia, blamed you and wanted to kill you. That doesn't seem unusual at all, for a drug addict. I also believe he told you he was an angel. I'm guessing he was high and/or delusional at the time, and possibly permanently. They are extreme stories, but I don't find them absurd. I think the people who do not believe you have not had similar experiences in their life, and/or are somewhat ignorant of the world. If someone hasn't had a simiar experience and are uninformed about the world, they could think stories like yours, seem to be "Hollywood" or "Fantasy". Also in their defense-there are a lot of people who embellish and make up stories, for a variety of reasons. I do believe you, though...
DeleteI didn't know what too good to be true meant until my experience with the psychopath.
DeleteI think, though, that I did use that phrase when he donned his mask. I suppose he nailed it for me. I had been relating to him as he presents at work - very quiet, very difficult to get close to or understand. It was like he was revealing this wonderful character underneath his private exterior to me. That's how I understood it at the time.
And yes, it was too good to be true!
As for your stories, and after my simply amazing and movie-like experiences with the psychopath* I like to hear anyone's narrative for what it's worth as they experienced it. Narrative is another person's packaging of their own experience - not for me to judge, except as it pertains to my own decisions. But perhaps I can learn about how another relates to the world from genuinely hearing their voice.
*I'd prefer to use his name; it's ridiculous to simply box him as "the psychopath". It's especially funny because he seems attached to his own name. He writes it out in full. **-* ** **-. Maybe I'll call him **-*.
North it's so strange that you are saying these things. I have been thinking so much today about illusions. How I fell in love with my own reflection and the horror I felt and still feel when I saw what I really "loved" I still don't know what I was really involved with. I wonderwho that person even is. Don't they know how much more there is.
DeleteNorth-Everything you said above, resonates with me. I would be more than happy to share my story with you sometime in the future-right now it's still a "work in progress". Please forgive me, if I'm sporadic. Also, I don't see a a problem with you using your psychopath's first name. Or, you could give him a nickname of your choice.:)
DeleteAnon 5:22-Your post also resonates with me.:) I see psychopaths/sociopaths not as any one person, but rather, as chameleons/shapeshifters. I also wondered how they could not know how much more there is. I do not believe they experience that "much more" that we do, and that's why they say it doesn't exist-because to them, it doesn't...
~Vegas
@Anon 5:22
DeleteI want to say that I understand what you mean; your words have sense and feeling and meaning to me. I also want to say there is no shame in that love. Embrace the parts of you that loved and that ache in the questions. Listen to each cry and don't be afraid of the pain. That pain is part of you that is seeking to be heard and to inform you.
I don't mean to be presumptuous in saying these things - I'm sorry if I'm off-base. An Anon here once wrote that it takes a long time to work the impacts out of our system. I learnt to embrace myself through that process and found a deep communion with myself. It's a precious time of self acceptance. There were many strands of grief and learning but those strands led to powerful discoveries in my own being.
Hi Vegas,
DeleteI understand! I was here a long time before I really started sharing my story. Being able to create a narrative is an important part of healing; you can start to let go once you have shaped it into a story.
Take your time. It'll come when you're ready. And I'd be honoured to read it.
I've named him on INTJF. People are freaked out enough when I visit this site at work ;) The cleaner knows of course. He caught us in the boardroom. He was seated, shirt open and I had blindfolded him with his tie. Ahh, he was so delicious, so sexy sitting there like that, waiting to experience what I had in store for him. Anyway, the cleaner walked in. He didn't even notice, he was so focused. He's left the company now but the cleaner is still around.
North thank you for your kind words. My thoughts and emotions change so Fast-like lightning. I feel I flicker in and out of a sort of higher consciousness. Its both beautiful and disturbing. I want to write it down but it's too fleeting. And I feel almost like it would be like trying to document an acid trip. Something nonsensical. But something powerful nonetheless.
DeleteAnd north I know exactly what you mean about wanting to refer to them in another way. I wish I could. I just have so many reasons I shouldn't. All I can say is Anais Nin has nothing on me. :-) triangles on top of triangles. And like her I'm afraid they will have to be released posthumously. Or at least not on this blog. I hate boundaries in communicating.
DeleteYou're making space for something previously inconceivable. It's a biological process, a rewiring. That's YOUR energy and it is amazing!
DeleteFlow with it and trust yourself. You are your own best guide. If you want to write, I'm happy to just listen. Others did that for me. And you remind me of those intense days - they do pass, the amplitude diminishes.
Twitter @spinningnorth I can DM you my email addy
North and Vegas I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your individual voices.
DeleteNorth thank you for your invitation. It is so gracious of you and it means a lot to me to know that someone would even offer to listen to my ramblings. :-)
DeleteNorth-I have had the "Boardroom Idea" myself, although I haven't been able to experience that, thus far.:) Do you think we are "easily seduced"??? I didn't think so, but I have to admit-I am a sucker for hot sex!!! I love this line from the movie "Point Of No Return": "Oh, I think she's saying, "Stick it in me twice a day, and I'll do anything for you. I'll lick the ground you walk on." I think all of the psychopaths/sociopaths watched that movie, and "got our number", if you know what I'm saying!!! HA!!! LOL!!!
DeleteAnon 3:40-I'm glad you enjoy reading my posts, and that you appreciate my voice.:) I appreciate yours, too!!!
~Vegas
My pleasure. It's nice to understand my own experience wasn't some strange dream :p
DeleteNorth-It is like waking up from a VERY STRANGE DREAM, isn't it???
Delete~Vegas
North-When I figured it out, I felt like "Neo" in "The Matrix", when he realized he was "The One"...
Delete~Vegas
Vegas,
DeleteGood sex is really important to a relationship.
Yes, I felt the same, as though I'd taken the red pill. It's still that way, but I'm used to seeing the code in the world around me. That's experience is normalised for me.
And yet another: "Yes, sometimes things hurt too much for laughing. But sometimes, they hurt too much not to."
ReplyDeleteI doubt sociopathy and PTSD have much in common from an inward perspective, however their outward manifestation seem to look similar enough for health professionals to be mistaken for each other - at least if we're talking about the less aggressive, subclinical forms of sociopathy.
ReplyDeleteIt is definitely worth to explore the physiological anomalies which cause PTSD or are caused by it and compare them to underlying physiological anomalies associated with sociopathy. There might be some paralleles, but probably not even enough for a statistically significant result - as is often the case when psychology and physiology are merged. Anyways, still interesting to come up with theories.
I remember an instance back when I was 11 years old, in psychiatry, during a therapy session. I was bored to death and thought it might be fun to test something new, so I stared (almost unblinkingly, with my 'default' expression) at the shrink until she started to got a concerned, then a frightened look on her face. (Back then, I didn't recognize the latter expression as fear, it just looked odd. Like a deer in the headlights of a truck.) As she finally did say something, she spoke with a slight shiver in her voice, declaring I might have PTSD. I inquired what that was and, after she told me, I said I wouldn't know why she thinks so. She dropped her theory after that. (Managed to get a peek at her notes some while afterwards.)
@Anon who likes to use 'PS' with lots of added 'S':
ReplyDeleteYou didn't lose me, I just fell asleep xD
(After 30 hours without sleep, and a week with an average of appoximately 3 and a half hours sleep per night).
Thanks for the nice comments. :)
PS: It would be much welcomed if you'd choose a nickname or something which makes it easier to refer to you.
Hey NM!!! I like to read your posts.:) You scared your psychiatrist, as a child? What color are your eyes? What did her notes say? Do you like my "PS", with lots of added "S"? HA!!! LOL!!! I'm glad I didn't "lose you"-I was tired, too.:) I've gone that long without sleep many a time!!! I don't like it, though-I LOVE TO SLEEP!!! Sleep is SO NICE after my dopamine hit, from "you know what".:) You are more than welcome, for the nice comments.:) I can start using a nickname-your wish is my command.:) Mr. Hyde calls me "Musical Anon". Shall I use that, or do you have any other ideas???
DeletePS NM-Do you think OP is a sociopath? I do...
DeletePSS-"Vegas" would be a fun name!!! HA!!! LOL!!!
ReplyDeleteNorth-How did you choose your name???
PSSS-I could call myself "Angel", and pretend I have a halo.:)
DeleteWell, you seem genuinely curious, always striving for knowledge, like to examine foreign viewpoints, never seem to give up (determined)...
DeleteI got it! You'll no longer be a mere Anonymous who likes to use PS, with lots of added S! From now on, you shall be known as - Snoopy! :-)
Like it?
Anagram generator as a starting point ;)
DeleteDon't want to give too much away.
Socioempath-You figured me out FAST!!! Thank you for the link to the Motorhead song "I'm Your Man".:) Was that an offer??? I love music, as you know.:) I'm sorry-I didn't read your post, until after I told NM, that I would go with "Vegas". Snoopy was a good recommendation, though-thank you.:)
DeleteAwww shucks, I lost :'((((
DeleteHehehehehe, don't worry about it!
Why "I'm Your Man"? Well, it seemed very fitting, as the lyrics, in my opinion, very accurately depict how a (patient, experienced) sociopath (or someone non-sociopathic extremely good at "games") thinks and acts. And the song itself is very good at making you "feel that way".
"Back to back, you see me now
Show me what you're hiding here
I can't move if I don't sing
I can't stand, I got no chair
Can't see me, I'm the man, ain't no joke
Can't see me, master plan up in smoke
Can't hear me, I'm so loud, suits me fine
Can't hear me, I ain't proud all the time
Follow me and don't you move
Stop at nothing, show your teeth
I can see you, I'm not deaf
Two years later, twice a week
Can't see me, I'm the man laid in bed
Can't see me, give a damn, Motorhead
Can't hear me, up your way, ring your chimes
Can't hear me, I can't stay all the time
I can't tell you it ain't me
I won't be no beast up there
Turn me 'round 'cause I can't dance
Be a spaceship, I don't care
Can't hear me, stand up straight, row my boat
Can't hear me, hit the deck, fishtail goat
Can't see me on the game, ain't no crime
Can't see me, aeroplane, all the time"
North-Thank you for the "anagram idea"-that was a good one!!!
DeletePS-Thanks for "having my back", too.:)
AUSTRALIANS RULE!!!
~Vegas
Anon, I'll call you Vegas then. ;)
ReplyDeleteWhenever necessary I abandon my regular sleep shedule, tho I don't really like it either - mainly because it takes ages to get back to normal again. (It's midnight again...)
I've got green eyes with a dark brown inner ring taking up about one third of the iris. In normal indoor light conditions they appear brown or dark hazel. From up close they look somewhat like this, though with less brown: [click]
I've always been fascinated by how people can get afraid of just being stared at, especially with my rather dark, IMO not very 'piercing' eyes. The shrink back then was probably more frightened by my lack of movement than my eyes in particular. She remarked I had "a very stern look for such a young person".
Her notes were full of psychology terms and probable diagnoses, as well as symptoms. I found the term "pathological liar" quite frequently, and she noted quite often how "defiant" and "rebellious" I am. I found "F60.4" as well, googled that on the weekend. She thought I had histrionic PD, which I used against her later on - funny story. Oh and, since you can't diagnose a 11-year-old with a PD, I was diagnosed as having a "Severe depressive episode". Later on they added "with psychotic symptoms". Lol. ('nother funny story.)
Anyways, I still find it hilarious how some people begin to shiver and turn pale when I stare at them.
I do like your PSSS, I find that funny. Tho it's sometimes a bit annoying you post several posts in a row instead of one longer comment.
PS: I don't think the OP is a sociopath, but has some tendencies that could be considered sociopathic, depending on culture and so on. Here in Austria, she would be rather neurotypical for a spoiled upper-class person. Depends on context in her case.
Vegas, it is.:) Thank you for updating your dog's picture.:) SHE IS SO CUTE!!! It is totally annoying to get back to a normal schedule.:( I was trying to picture you, scaring your psychiatrist, so the eye color was important-thank you.:) Eyes can be piercing, regardless of the color.:) My 1st boyfriend had beautiful green eyes.:) I always wished that I had black hair and green eyes.:) I appreciate your honesty, and am sorry I've been annoying with my PSS's.:) I'm pretty "scattered" at the moment, and I'll post, and then have more thoughts.:) Thanks for your take on the OP.:) Do you know a lot of "spoiled upper class people"?
Delete~Vegas
Vegas, you're welcome.
DeleteI like getting back to a normal shedule, this way it's more significant when I "break out" once again - as my life would be annying pure chaos otherwise.
The PSS's are not annoying, only the multiple posts. Mostly I don't care tho. :)
If you feel "shattered" you could write your comment, then wait a few minutes in case you've got more, and then post it. ;)
Yes, unlucky me knows way too many people of all impossible kinds of people xD
Vegas, I've got to go to sleep now - much to do tomorrow. Don't worry if I don't get to answer, I read everything. ;)
NM-I'm not "shattered", rather "scattered".:) You are right, though-I should wait for my thoughts, and include them all, in one post.:) You sound lucky to me-I don't know if one can know too many people, of all kinds.:) Have a good night.:)
Delete~Vegas
NM-I just came across this-you can listen to it, while you go to sleep.:)
DeleteLOVE KINGS OF LEON!!!
~Vegas
Did it again.:( Here's the link:
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoKOwLtfyS4
~Vegas
I doubt psychopaths swing between different mental states. I doubt psychopaths get "haunted" by the past, other than intense feelings of anger for situations when somebody bullied them & they were too small/undeveloped to do something about it.
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:45-I think you are absolutely correct.:)
Delete~Vegas
OP, this post on Brain Pickings may be of interest to you:
ReplyDeleteWhat Higher Consciousness Really Means, How We Attain It, and What It Does for the Human Spirit
Ordinary life rewards practical, unintrospective, self-justifying outlooks that are the hallmarks of what we could call “lower” consciousness. Neuroscientists speak of a “lower” part of the brain they term the reptilian mind and tell us that under its sway, we strike back when we’re hit, blame others, quell any stray questions that lack immediate relevance, fail to free-associate, and stick closely to a flattering image of who we are and where we are heading.
However, at rare moments, when there are no threats or demands upon us, perhaps late at night or early in the morning, when our bodies and passions are comfortable and quiescent, we have the privilege of being able to access the higher mind — what neuroscientists call our neocortex, the seat of imagination, empathy and impartial judgement. We loosen our hold on our own egos and ascend to a less biased and more universal perspective, casting off a little of the customary anxious self-justification and brittle pride.
In such states, the mind moves beyond its particular self-interests and cravings. We start to think of other people in a more imaginative way. Rather than criticize and attack, we are free to imagine that their behavior is driven by pressures derived from their own more primitive minds, which they are generally in no position to tell us about. Their temper or viciousness are, we now see, symptoms of hurt rather than of “evil.”
It’s an astonishing gradual evolution to develop the ability to explain others’ actions by their distress, rather than simply in terms of how it affects us. We perceive that the appropriate response to humanity is not fear, cynicism or aggression, but always — when we can manage it — love. At such moments, the world reveals itself as quite different: a place of suffering and misguided effort, full of people striving to be heard and lashing out against others, but also a place of tenderness and longing, beauty, and touching vulnerability.
In response to your questions:
1) Trauma responses are various and adaptive for the time and place they occur. We can move beyond them, although it can be very difficult. I suspect the qualitative nature of our response depends on genetic proclivities as well as environment. So some people may become more sociopathic, some more narcissistic, some addicts, some schizoid. My ex suffers complex PTSD and is narcissistic. I was more schizoid style / operating from learned helplessness in my personal relationships.
What was once adaptive may no longer be so and we can create new adaptations.
3) The above-quoted paragraph provides an interesting perspective on this question. Psychopaths are sometimes described as having a dominant brainstem (reptilian brain) - perhaps there are some correlations. Certainly we are all capable of the types of callous and/or impulsive behaviour psychopaths are prone to. I can relate to some of the episodes you describe, for example.
4) That's beyond my data.
5) How much do you know of neuroplasticity? I highly recommend Mindsight by Dan Siegel. He explores understandings from neuroscience that may explain our patterns of behaviour and shows the reader how to develop skills to change these patterns. His explanation of attachment theory was pragmatic and of assistance to me, for example.
"How we focus our attention shapes the structure of the brain. Neuroscience has also definitively shown that we can grow these new connections throughout our lives, not just in childhood."
In the words of Christopher S Hyatt, you are pure potential.
Sounds like you will need to do some exploring to answer that question for yourself.
North-I just had a thought-I wonder if the "neocortex" is where they derived Keanu Reeves name in "The Matrix"-"Neo"???
Delete"We perceive that the appropriate response to humanity is not fear, cynicism or aggression, but always — when we can manage it — love."
Absolutely!!! Like the quote from John Lennon's song "Mind Games"-"Love is the answer and you know that for sure".:)
You have a beautiful mind, North!!! My mind is so linear, that sometimes "I lose you".:) It is a deficit of mine that I recognize, and I am always attempting to be able to understand and grasp the abstract more clearly.:)
~Vegas
Vegas, thanks very much. I think you should be completely happy with who you are! I enjoy reading more of your thoughts and expressions, you are really coming out of your shell here too.
DeleteI'm very abstract because I lived most of my life in my head.
Rejoining the workforce after 7 years off looking after my kids, playing rugby and studying meant I had to get up to speed with practical communications with other humans pronto. Being a consultant, I was very fortunate to be around very bright visual and oral communicators from whom I learnt. This has opened up so many new pathways in my mind but setting my ideas into forms others can understand is still a skill I'm developing. I'm still better at writing and PPTX than speaking, for example. But I am really learning to let my expressions flow and it's very powerful. This place has been wonderful for me in lots of ways. It was A who really challenged me to step into my burgeoning boldness and since then I have been blossoming. My energy is no longer constrained. I'm still learning to direct it productively, of course, lol. Life by practice and experiment.
Per usual I find your thoughts provocative, North. Thank you.
DeleteMr. Hyde
North-I am "coming out of my shell", aren't I??? I TOTALLY ADMIRE ABSTRACT THOUGHT!!! I wish I was gifted that way.:) I really like "A", too!!! Where is she???
DeleteP.S. I think Mr. Hyde likes you.:)
~Vegas
Thanks Vegas. Enjoy your own musical and social talents,, too! You are open-minded and good at finding ways to connect people and ideas.
DeleteThankyou Mr Hyde. I'm looking forward to hearing more of your voice when the inclination strikes you.
North-Thanks for the AWESOME COMPLIMENTS!!!
DeleteI know-we aren't hearing from Mr. Hyde as much these days-I wonder why???
~Vegas
I just came across another quote, and thought I'd share: "We can’t let others define us. Figuring out who we are has to be an inside job. My mother always claimed I was born mouthy. As if she had nothing to do with that. I can see how some people use the term bossy to shame a woman into being a lesser version of herself. The idea, always, is to make us feel guilty, even if we can’t explain why. Labels such as bossy, aggressive, and ambitious have a way of shutting us down. But only with our permission. What they call you is one thing. What you answer to is something else." Lucille Clifton.
ReplyDeleteNM-I thought this was a fitting quote, since I just got a new name, to answer to.:)
~Vegas
It's true but there's an overhead in convincing yourself you are not the label being thrown at you.
DeleteThis is why narcissistic and verbal abuse is effective over long periods of time - the burden becomes exhausting.
Absolutely. And really it has nothing to do with you anyway. If they thought saying you were shy would get a rise out of you they would say it. Its all about control. We have to recognize the difference between defending who we "believe" we are and deflecting abuse .
DeleteNorth-You are absolutely correct-it's a BIG OVERHEAD!!!
DeleteAnon 6:57-You are absolutely correct, as well!!! It is all about control. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE, between defending who we "believe" we are, and deflecting abuse. When I "reached my limit" I said, "You forget who I am". I thought that was a good beginning, to covering both.:)
~Vegas
Anon 6:57
DeleteThat's really interesting and I imagine, true. I suppose as soon as I realised it was abuse - because it accumulated over such a long period, I'd already decided to leave. But in retrospect, it's helpful to understand that sort of operation, thanks.
Note: the psychopath didn't abuse me in this way at all. It was my C-PTSD suffering narcissist ex husband and that was most definitely about control. After it was all over, his best friend said to me "He's the air-traffic controller and we're all his little aeroplanes." Well, you can be an aeroplane if you want, I'm done.
Nice line, Vegas :)
The psychological abuse I experienced was unreal. Looking back it was all because I kept waiting for the dissonance to resolve itself. It never did.
DeleteNorth-Your ex's best friend had it right on!!! I loved your response, too.:) My analogy of my socio was from "The Wizard of Oz": He was "The Wizard", orchestrating everything. Once "the curtain had been pulled back", and instead of "The Great Wizard of Oz", it was just a man-I was surprised he kept trying to "put on the show"!!!
DeleteI'm glad you liked my line.:) IT FELT AWESOME!!! HA!!! LOL!!!
If I make it back to Australia someday, WE WILL HAVE TO MEET UP!!!
~Vegas
Anon 4:03-Your story sounds like mine!!!
Delete~Vegas
The Wizard of Oz! That's funny.
DeleteIt seems so unnecessary, the lengths **-* went to. I said to him once "you make sex so complicated."
The boardroom experience was a turning point. Aside from being exciting in itself, I took a lot of initiative in setting up that scenario. I'd never blindfolded anyone before. He didn't want me to undo his tie but after I blindfolded him, he looked amazing sitting there. Soooo sexy.
I gave something he wanted that night. A little concession. And the way he responded was very informative. I had given him an inch and he tried to take a mile so from there on he got nothing. I didn't budge in negotiations.
I think he liked the blindfold experience. He was always nagging me for fantasies and I would redirect him. I asked him to use his creativity to find something we would both enjoy. Next time I went to his house, he met me at the door in his underpants and an elaborate setup of blindfold and coat hangers for my clothes. He used two voices while I was blindfolded - one in English, one in French. He called the French one Francois. It's clear what fantasy he was trying to play out but it came across as him inviting his imaginary friend to sex. He was very polite to 'Francois'. He tried to make that persona very life like and I remember thinking 'who the fuck is Francois'? It felt as though this was a significant character or element in his life - that's how I took it. Again, it was a misconception that he had revealed something of himself to me when in reality I suppose he was only trying to use the creative licence I had given him.
(FWIW he wasn't after a threesome with me. He told me his 'previous wife' was nagging him for one. I presume that means he hasn't been successful pursuing that fantasy with other lovers. There's a massive strategic flaw here that seems silly to have to point out. He is chasing naive women and convincing them they are the love of his life. To get them to give in to these fantasies, he will either need massively more patience and actually break them first, or he needs to target different women. A naive woman in the early stages of finding a man supposedly head over heels with her is not likely to be interested in such things. That's all roses and candle-lit dinners, not threesomes*. This is an example of what I mean when I say the emotional premises are missing in the construction of the argument. Either that or he's overconfident in way that is completely detached him from reality. )
He tried the creative roleplay thing one more time, something about us being on an aeroplane. Neither of us was into it and things waned until he called it 'stalemate' and we had that incredible finale sex.
I would refer him to the red light district if ever he asked for something I wasn't interested in. He would try to make me jealous - it wasn't a monogamous relationship. I *wasn't* that attached to him. I was broken-hearted over someone else; although I let myself fall for him, it was quickly apparent the relationship was going nowhere and I also invested less. He was a lovely distraction and the sex was good but he was a pain in the arse for the most part. After the above described events, I tried to leave him a few times. Later, I asked him why he didn't let me go at that point. He said "I couldn't" in that visceral way he occasionally had. I suppose he wasn't done trying to hurt me.
That's the real clincher. Knowing someone has run a personal campaign designed to injure you. That's what changes everything about your understanding of humanity.
The trick is not to overgeneralise and cut yourself off from the possibility of trusting anyone. Good modelling is important for that too.
*Light whipping maybe because that's exciting and he is not capable even of a decent smack so there's no risk of actual pain. He did claim a girlfriend asked him to whip her once. FFS.
I haven't shared those stories before.
DeleteThat he avoids or ignores me now... I feel that he's a pitiful creature. As Anon wrote in the other thread - don't they know there is so much more?
I guess they don't.
CS Lewis wrote something along the lines of 'would you like to be that person? If not, they are worthy of your pity.' It seems a hollow life - he's not even interested in seeing more. Just that same relationship railroad, round and round and round. Maybe some dips and crests in there. The one advantage he has is his self-love and self-confidence that makes the world bright. But anyone can adopt that, and in far richer and more stable way, independent of the bahaviours of others.
My father is a charismatic, highly capable, wonderful and adventurous narcissist. Just the other week, I was talking with my mum about how **-* was like him in some ways. Mum said "mere mortals are boring." She's right.
The only solution is to live a rich life of my own design. To flourish as I choose.
North-It sounds like your socio made sex VERY COMPLICATED!!! How do you make coat hangers into clothes??? YIKES!!! Do you think he was trying to play out a "threesome", or do you think he has "multiple personalities"??? It seems like it would be A LOT EASIER, to actually just have a threesome and sex on an airplane!!!
DeleteHe couldn't even give a decent spanking???
Thank you for sharing your stories, North.:) I know-what is up with the avoiding/ignoring thing???
CS Lewis is a great writer.:) It does seem "hollow" to us, but it is their "normal".:(
You know, North-they say people choose people, that remind them of their opposite gendered parent.
Your mom is right, and she sounds really cool.:) I love how Australians and Canadians (some Europeans, and I'm sure many others), call their moms "mum".:)
Are Americans the only ones who say "Mom"??? I wonder...
I agree with you about "the clincher"-why would someone run a personal campaign designed to injure, when you haven't done anything to them??? There is no reason, is there, North???
It will be a challenge, to attempt to trust people again, but I know I will be able to do it.:)
PS-YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!! We need to live rich lives of our own design, and flourish how we choose!!!
~Vegas
North I haven't forgotten about the generous invitation you extended to me-to tell my story. I just can't seem to formulate it now. I had a dream last night that I was in a strange place but with people I know. There was a darkness that surrounded me. It was heavy and thick. They were trying to put chains on me but I kept slipping out of them all Houdini like. It infuriated them. At one point everything changed. I felt the darkness move behind me and someone else. I could feel the pressure but it couldn't touch US. We were laughing and making jokes. It was something even more pure than perfection. I wanted to hold it forever. Then the darkness moved thru me and back into them and I woke up.
DeleteNorth the parallels between your socio and x-husband and my weird situation are striking to me. I hope I can discuss it with you further one day. I was also thinking about my dad today. How selfish and narcissistic he can be and how he is one of my favorite people ever. And how much I adore some men. For whatever reason they can do no wrong.
DeleteWonderful dream! I think those sorts of things are powerful signs the brain can heal itself of trauma and adapt. It's like a vision of where the process is taking you.
DeleteIt's ok to be patient with yourself in creating your story. There's SO much to process and you can trust your brain to do a great job of it. It was 16 months post break-up before I could write a coherent narrative that adequately captured what happened. In the meantime, I wrote reams and explored everything and allowed my heart to lead the way.
I kept a blog thread on INTJForum and blurted everything out there.
My dad is one of my favourite people too :) I'm actually at his place now with my sons. My relationship with him has come full circle. I stopped talking to him in the immediate aftermath of the breakup with **-*. I finally worked out he was a narcissist and he was spectacularly unhelpful and selfish. But he does love me in his own strange way. I relate to him differently these days; my world doesn't crumble when he is harsh and I can tell him what I feel. It was a good thing I took time away from him and dealt with all the drama myself - I'm not a petrified 2 year old anymore and I can appreciate him for who he is :)
Vegas,
DeleteNo, he was way too gentle. Maybe he was overcompensating.
I did sometimes see bruises on his upper arm. He told me his wife beat him. They looked like grip marks.
Indians say 'Mom' under American influence.
I'm sure you will learn to trust again too, Vegas.
At one level, I also ignored him on many occasions. Yes, it's all too complicated.
I suddenly saw it, how the game works in his mind. How it 'makes sense' or is 'logical' in that barren, psychopath way. Why he must be elaborate and detailed and repetitive.
DeleteEnnui, emptiness.
Alan Watts speaks of us emerging from the Void which contains everything. The Void I saw in his eyes seemed more vast because its richness is more dispersed in him, not as coloured by feeling. That blankness makes more sense.
I can see the affair laid out across time. His scaffolding, the signals he listened to and the tests he constructed. His automations. His failed shots at 'bonus point' targets. The signals he ignored as irrelevant or superfluous. The investment was never in me, but against his own boredom and in favour of his own construction of self. It was like a kid's Lego set: most time spent in the construction and less in the actual imaginative play; he moved onto the next set.
I smashed the Lego set so he was pissed. He couldn't play with it if he felt like it and it took him so long to build it! He had been so clever! And then with those messages I sent him, he wondered if I hadn't left enough of the structure standing for him to have some fun. But with each successive message, as I made it increasingly clear I considered myself on the same level, he realised that structure is fucked for good and he did the only thing left in his power: he closed the door.
I already know that if I were to see him on the street, I would be in command of the situation. I would be the alpha. And not for anything I would do. It's for the fact he can't see the possibilities and because he is trapped in his own beliefs.
I don't know how I feel about this yet.
I love the line from bladerunner-its hard to meet your maker. Its so hard to differentiate who makes who.
Delete:)
DeleteVIDEO: 5 mins - Matrix Reloaded - Councillor Hamann
For all the improved understanding and healthier patterns I've developed, his was a destructive and negative energy. I transmuted that energy, but at a massive cost. I don't want it anymore. That exchange is exhausted.
I looked up the word ruin- I'm always interested in the words I hear repeated and I find the actual dictionary definition of words always give me some kind of new insight. One if the definitions stood out-to fall. To fall from grace?
DeleteThank you for the clip. I feel like I had an encounter with a mechanicalmirror-one that drew me in with my own reflection and then changed. I believed it was an mutual exchange but somehow it wasn't.
DeleteEnough already. In the past year this website has slowly deteriorated to the point of no return.
ReplyDeleteNothing useful or enlightening anymore, just the same people spewing the same nonsense over and over again and anons praising their useless banter.
Do tell then, what is useful and enlightening? Do you know objectively which topics of conversation that are clearly more valid then what we've been talking of here?
DeleteI'm ever so curious and await your response.
ESTP Sociopath
We're not actually here for your entertainment; rather for our own journeys. Perhaps you could share your journey and inspire the type of discussion that interests you.
DeleteDo tell, Lore lei.
DeleteWe are seeking enlightenment. I know I am.
Mr. Hyde
ESTP, North, & Mr. Hyde-You might not believe this, but I read Lore lei's post, and was going to post just what ESTP did!!! I think it's interesting when people are unhappy with the blog/posts, but choose not to add anything...
Delete~Vegas
I don't think I was on this blog a year ago. Were the topics/posts much more useful and interesting??? Anyone???
Delete~Vegas
No, there actually are some informative posts.
DeleteThe world (secretly) loves psychopaths. Are there any travelling socio "workshops" where people can meet domesticated sociopaths? Can the starry-eyed public be introduced to "different types" like Slick Talker or Stoneface?
ReplyDelete...or Crazy Bitch (histrionic female socio)? Maybe mask-wearing would heighten the experience for the audience? The same appeal as "pale clowns in moonlight", media sure would be interested.
DeleteWe do love our psychopaths-mine is a pretty awesome lover- the 2nd best lover I have ever had.:)
DeleteNorth-how would you rate yours? Was he "The Best" lover you ever had???
~Vegas
Anon 1:58-I like your idea!!! Maybe M.E. could get that started!!! We "nons" could see if there are any we like, and maybe even "try them out", and depending on the result-see if we'd like to keep them for awhile!!! HA!!! LOL!!!
Delete~Vegas
Or, M.E. could start a "Psychopathic Dating Site"!!! I wonder if there is liability, if something goes awry???
Delete~Vegas
Or, a "Dating App"!!!
DeleteMaybe these sites/apps already exist...does anyone know???
~Vegas
An audience would be likely "thrilled" by just petty stuff, like being invited to try to "outsmart psychos" in mind games or getting invited to VIP-parties (as single empaths) surrounded by "monsters"..
DeleteGames are fun, especially if you can WIN PRIZES!!! VIP Parties are FUN, TOO!!!
Delete~Vegas
Vegas I like your style. I love how bubbly you are. Even amongst "monsters":-)
DeleteHi Vegas,
DeleteIt's an interesting question. He was technically the best and his theatre of seduction was unparalleled. But this is the core of his being, his ability to seduce. For instance you would tell me he'd eat certain foods so he would taste better. He wants, and expects, women hooked on his penis.
Yes, he's very good. I don't know, the spell's broken. To see the way he runs away because I don't do what he wants - it's hard to find that attractive or appealing in any way.
Overall, there's lots of other experiences I've enjoyed, different overall flavours. Different meals, different courses. We play a big role in our own experiences.
* he would tell me
DeleteAnon 5:44-Thank you.:) I am bubbly, aren't I???
DeleteNorth-I know-it's TOTAL "ANIMAL MAGNETISM", isn't it??? Did the "eating certain foods so it would taste better" thing work???
Running away because you don't do what he wants, sounds very unattractive and unappealing.:(
There are "plenty of flavors", "different meals", and "different courses", aren't there???
We do have A LOT TO DO, with our own experiences.:)
~Vegas
Haha, umm yes. But don't ask me to remember what he said the foods were!
DeleteHe attended to all the details. I'm not a detail person at all but I did appreciate that about him, that contrast.
And sure, let me know if you're ever in Aus.
North-I WILL DEFINITELY LET YOU KNOW, IF I'M EVER IN AUSTRALIA AGAIN!!!
DeleteI was able to spend a few days in Sydney, before going on my cruise, which also had stops in Melbourne and Tasmania.:)
I LOVED ALL 3!!! I said if I ever lived in another city/country, it would be Melbourne, Australia!!!
There is STILL SO MUCH MORE OF AUSTRALIA FOR ME TO SEE!!!
It was SO COOL to see Koalas and Kangaroos!!!
~Vegas
Oh lovely. I'm in Sydney this weekend watching the 7s and hanging out with my dad.
DeleteGlad you liked it!
Song of the day:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uLI6BnVh6w
~Vegas
Hey NM~How's it going with that chick you liked at work???
ReplyDelete~Vegas
PS NM-Is she an "Upper Class" chick???
Delete~Vegas
PSS NM-How's that female neighbor of yours??? Does she still come over, and touch you a lot???
Delete~Vegas
NM-Are your co-worker and neighbor, keeping you busy???
Delete~Vegas
Vegas, I don't remember a noteworthy chick at work, you might have confused something?
DeleteHaven't seen my neighbor for about 2 weeks now. She's a needy upper class chick. I might have gone a bit too far with some manipulation tactic and was a tad too aggressive.... or she's just busy. She'll calm down eventually.
I'm currently onto a guy I've met in a bar last summer. He's actually hetero, but we're on and off in a relationship. Somehow. Not exactly sure why he resumes meeting me anyways. I try to get him to love me, but honestly I've got no clue whether I have a chance in the long run...
Hey NM-so you are upper class.:) You tried to give your neighbor what she needs, and now you don't see her? Your "bar guy" must really like you, if you've managed to get him to "swing another way".:) He meets you, because he likes what he gets, when he is with you.:) Do you really need him to love you? Are you wondering how long it will last, or if you'll eventually "win him", to be "all your own"???
Delete~Vegas
NM-Maybe you stared at your neighbor too long, and she freaked out.:)
Delete~Vegas
Lol no I'm not upper class xD
DeleteI'm in the upper half of middle class (As my parent used to say) and proud of that! ;p
"Your "bar guy" must really like you, if you've managed to get him to "swing another way".:) He meets you, because he likes what he gets, when he is with you.:)"
Yes, he seems to like me... He doesn't talk much, but tends to talk to me much more than to anyone I've seen him interacting with. He knows that I'm a psycho, knows that I'm a pathological liar and "not a good person" as he had put it the other day - yet he seems to like me.
I'm not sure if I got him to "swing another way", he has a damningly low self esteem. He probably just likes the flattery I give him every now and then. Though, there's a chance he's latently bi or gay. At least he's very open toward new experiences. He loves it when I choke him when we fuck.
He was totally drunk the first couple times we met. Frankly, I didn't ask for consent a couple of times and just had my way. Not that I raped him, I just ignored him saying 'no' until he said 'yes'. Or stopped saying no. I think he likes it that way. Or at least he assured me he would make me stop if it gets too much for him - which he hasn't done so far.
"Do you really need him to love you?"
Yes. I don't know why tho...
"Are you wondering how long it will last, or if you'll eventually "win him", to be "all your own"???"
Rather the latter. I know it will for ever and ever, or for as long as I'm satisfied.
"Maybe you stared at your neighbor too long, and she freaked out.:)"
Nah, she wouldn't have noticed xD
Hey NM!!! You should be proud, regardless of whatever "class" you are.:)
DeleteHow does he know you are a "psycho" and "pathological liar"???
What are your thoughts, on him saying he thinks you are "not a good person"???
I want to ask you something, that I've always wondered about, but never wanted to ask my gay male friends: How is it determined who will be "dominant", when two men are together??? Do you both know beforehand??? Is it decided during the act??? Is it "set", or does it "alternate"??? I have ALWAYS WONDERED ABOUT THIS, and would really appreciate what you have to say, as far as what your experience has been...
When you choke him, does he pass out??? Are there bruises, and how does he explain those??? Do you allow him to choke you, as well???
Do you think he can satisfy you forever???
How would your neighbor not notice you staring at her, when others shiver and go pale???
P.S. Will you PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, tell me your dog's name??? She is SO CUTE!!!
~Vegas
NM-
Delete"He was totally drunk the first couple times we met. Frankly, I didn't ask for consent a couple of times and just had my way. Not that I raped him, I just ignored him saying 'no' until he said 'yes'. Or stopped saying no. I think he likes it that way. Or at least he assured me he would make me stop if it gets too much for him - which he hasn't done so far."
This is similar to me and my socio.:)
You and I sound similar sexually.:) Although, I am sure you are much more extreme, than I.:)
Also, do you enjoy being with men and women equally, or do you have a preference for one gender???
~Vegas
" How does he know you are a "psycho" and "pathological liar"??? "
DeleteI told him. :)
" What are your thoughts, on him saying he thinks you are "not a good person"??? "
I took it as a compliment. That's also how he meant it.
" I want to ask you something, that I've always wondered about, but never wanted to ask my gay male friends: How is it determined who will be "dominant", when two men are together??? Do you both know beforehand??? Is it decided during the act??? Is it "set", or does it "alternate"??? I have ALWAYS WONDERED ABOUT THIS, and would really appreciate what you have to say, as far as what your experience has been... "
All depends on the context and preferences. As far as I experienced it, it's not set in stone. I like to think "Whoever starts it is the dominant one, and therefore the active part.
" When you choke him, does he pass out??? Are there bruises, and how does he explain those??? Do you allow him to choke you, as well??? "
The first time I choked him against his will he passed out. We talked about it afterwards and he said he didn't like it, so now I stop before he's 'gone' entirely.
He lives alone, so he doesn't have to explain the cuts and bruises to anyone. If he had to, he would probably just shrug without giving an explanation.
I ask him to choke me, quite frequently actually. He doesn't like to do so, but does it anyway. He seems to be afraid to not do whatever possible to make me happy and to the same degree he's afraid to hurt me. I love to see this inner conflict of his.
" Do you think he can satisfy you forever??? "
As of now, yes. I've never had someone like him. I get horny the moment I see him even half naked, as if it was the first time we met.
" How would your neighbor not notice you staring at her, when others shiver and go pale??? "
She's not the smartest, and doesn't notice a hell lot of cues - neither her own nor those of others.
NM-What I've always wondered about the "choking thing": my hands are usually "doing other things".:) As far as the recipient-isn't the sex SO GOOD, that they REALLY NEED OXYGEN??? I have never been choked, but usually I'm needing major oxygen, making noises, and sometimes speaking...
Delete~Vegas
" Also, do you enjoy being with men and women equally, or do you have a preference for one gender??? "
DeleteI have a preference for feminine men, but I'm an opportunist.
NM-If you "win" him, would you marry him??? Is gay marriage legal in Austria???
Delete~Vegas
NM-I hope I haven't annoyed you, with all of my questions-I appreciate your candor.:) I DIG U!!!
DeleteNM-I really admire that you were honest with him, at the outset...
Delete~Vegas
Vegas, I'm out with some friends tonight so I'll answer more of your questions tomorrow.
DeletePS: Your questions don't annoy me. :)
NM-Cool.:) HAVE FUN!!!
DeleteI'm glad my questions don't annoy you.:)
~Vegas
PS NM-When you said you have a preference for feminine men, it made me think of a gay male friend, I once had.:) I remember the first time I saw him-GOD HE WAS GORGEOUS!!! Dark hair, piercing blue eyes...
DeleteMy female friend and I saw him walking down the hall at work, and we were both like "He is SO HOT"!!! As soon as he spoke, we knew he was gay and wouldn't be into us sexually-not that it mattered, as my friend and I were both in long term relationships.:) We ended up being great friends with him.:) My female friend even went to some gay bars with him.:) He ended up moving to another state, to be with a new boyfriend, and I lost touch with him.:( HE WAS GORGEOUS-I KNOW YOU WOULD HAVE LOVED HIM!!!
~Vegas
...he had a nice smile, great style, and an awesome physique!!! He would ask us almost every day "if he looked good", and he always did.:)
Delete~Vegas
I'm every so curious to know how such intelligent individuals arrived at the conclusion that I come here to be "entertained". I prefer the kind of entertainment that stimulates all of my senses and involves physically interacting with humans.
ReplyDeleteME originally developed this forum for individuals with ASPD. Has anyone noticed they have all disappeared? It's such a shame.
And "Vegas", I suggest you take some time to review the many posts ME has used over years that have prompted enlightening and useful discussions/debates. I have authored a few of them ;)
Oh. Snap.
DeleteThen why do you come here and complain?
DeleteYou claim to hate comments and posts without any substance, yet you do the same.
Forums, blogs, they all evolve over time. Are you saying you'd prefer it if this blog stayed the same?
The quality of this blog is beside the point. Nobody's forcing you to come here. If this blog doesn't "stimulate" you, then simply don't visit. Problem: solved!
Using sociopathy to dull emotions while being under a lot of pressure and stress, was just your coping mechanism. You are not a sociopath.
ReplyDelete-Khan
Hmm, I don't recall using the word "hate". When debating or expressing your opinion in the future, I would suggest checking the accuracy of your facts, and taking a few minutes to revise what you have written so it actually makes sense. I sense a bit of hostility and defensiveness in your post, so perhaps you are just flustered and/or insecure.
ReplyDeleteDo you really believe that the quality of the posts in a forum like this are "beside the point"? This contradicts what you attempt to say earlier about forums evolving over time. Blogs are the foundation of this type of forum. They are what attracts the audience. The ASPD audience that used to frequent this site-shared incredibly valuable insight about their experiences and thought processes. This helped to enlighten many of us who were seeking answers and understanding. Sadly, ME has moved on, as she should...and this has caused the majority of her followers to do so as well.
Finally, I never used to come here to be entertained, but after reading responses to the comments I've made recently, it is the only reason I am here now. I couldn't resist one final post to thank those of you who have entertained me over the past few days with your misperceptions and silly attempts at identifying my ulterior motives.
My goal was to irritate and annoy, and I seem to have accomplished this...so now I am done :)
Interesting...
DeleteWell, I'm happy for you. You've reached your goal. I'm sure it was a real noble cause.
So... congratulations?
Oh well, at least you know how to entertain. I wish you all the best :-)
I've been formally diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder, by my mental health therapist, but I do not think being diagnosed with ASPD is enough objective evidence to say one is a sociopath; ASPD heavily emphasizes antisocial behavior rather then the underlying personality traits which bring about that kind of behavior, and as we all know antisocial behavior isn't exclusive to sociopathy. I believe M.E. Thomas has talked bit before about this subject, how it could be fair to say ASPD =/= sociopathy. Recently we had a discussion about primary and the secondary traits of sociopathy, primary being the core personality traits and secondary being the antisocial behavior patterns born from primary traits. I would think it would be fair to say that having a majority of the core primary traits are a prequisite for defining oneself as a sociopath, rather then the secondary traits of antisocial behavior that is emphasized by ASPD. In that sense, the ASPD label is rather arbitrary to me.
DeleteESTP Sociopath
ESTP-I am not a professional, but I did not think you were a sociopath...
Delete~Vegas
PS ESTP-It is clear, that you have had a lot of trauma in your life. I would think that the ASPD, probably stems from that...
Delete~Vegas
PSS ESTP-I believe you have a "core", and it sounds like you have done miraculously well, considering all you have been through...
Delete~Vegas
PSSS-Be well...
DeleteSorry-When I do this many PS's, it annoys NM.:(
~Vegas
ESTP-Last one!!! I can tell that you have soul...
Delete~Vegas
ESTP-I lied-this is the last one!!! Hold onto your soul-never let it go-no matter what...
Delete~Vegas
Vegas, you may have misinterpreted what I had to say. What I meant by what I said is that simply because you're a sociopath, it doesn't mean you can be diagnosed with ASPD. Several sociopaths are diagnosed with ASPD though, and I'm one of them. Popular opinion is that ASPD is a prerequisite for defining oneself as a sociopath, which I don't think is necessarily true. Just look at M.E. Thomas, could we fairly say with the objective evidence available that she could be diagnosed with ASPD?
DeleteYou seem to have a pattern of not fully understanding or taking in what I write; you've repeatedly in the past asked questions for answers that I've already supplied within my posts. That's why I don't reply sometimes, as it is somewhat irritating to repeat myself. This isn't to shame you, but constructive criticism. I would like it in the future if you would take the time in the future to fully observe what you're reading, so that both your time as well as my own is not wasted.
ESTP Sociopath
ESTP-I think I understand. So, you can be a sociopath, and also be diagnosed with ASPD or not. Oops, sorry-I didn't mean to irritate you, and waste your time...
ReplyDelete~Vegas
Oh my god!
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what happened to me. I had a situation that was so emotionally upsetting that I just fucking shut off. It was like I was spock.
I literally was in a state where I could have watched someone die in front of my face and I wouldn't have felt almost anything.
It's bringing it back as I read it, the numbness, and the feeling of power that it gave me.
It makes perfect sense from an evolutionary standpoint - becoming less emotional and much more calculated makes us a lot better at surviving difficult situations.
I miss this state of mind. I am going to bring it back. I forgot that it's not really sadism, but it's more of this total numbing effect that lasts for days or weeks and a time.
If it had happened to me as a child, I would probably ~literally~ be a sociopath, if those emotions and that adaptive response to it got in that deep that early.
Thank you for this post. I had forgotten what this state felt like, and in remembering it, it's bringing back how to recover the feeling. Christ.... I even had the "predator" stare, which really was just more of "I don't even feel an inkling of fear or social discomfort."
So you can change it?
DeleteYou know what would be nice? If people finally recognized us sociopaths as the people meant to inherit the earth, for we are the only ones with the right mindset to make shure this planet is led into the bright future of tomorrow
ReplyDeleteHow To Get Your Ex Back After a Divorce or Breakup.! Am giving this testimony cos am so happy, I want to thank Dr Frank Ojo for the great thing he has done in my life , he brought happiness to my life .! A very big problem occurred in my Marriage seven months ago,between me and my husband .so terrible that he took the case to court for a divorce. he said that he never wanted to stay with me again,and that he didn't love me anymore.So he packed out of the house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get him back,after much begging,but all to no avail.and he confirmed it that he has made his decision,and he never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my husband .So i explained every thing to him,so he told me that the only way i can get my husband back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for him too.So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow his advice. Then he gave me the email address of the spell caster whom he visited. TEMPLEOFLOVEANDPROSPERITY@GMAIL.COM. So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address he gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my husband back the next day. What an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me, and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my husband who didn't call me for the past 7 months, gave me a call to inform me that he was coming back. So Amazing!! So that was how he came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and he apologized for his mistake,and for the pain he caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster. So, i will advice you out there if you have any problem contact Dr Frank Ojo, i give you 100% guarantee that he will help you.. Email him at: Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com . My name is Amanda Bryan, me & my family live in Toronto, Canada. Thanks for reading, and best of luck!
ReplyDeleteI guess I am a mild PTSD sociopath. But OK, so what, life goes on. Hell, I guess I have plenty of company!!!! Probably no cure. Just go with what ya got. I'm 62 now. Game over. Did my best and if that's not good enough well, "what-ever-will-be-will-be." Just try to enjoy your short lives. Be thankful that you're not a psychopath! LOL
ReplyDelete