Design Matters' Debbie Millman interviews Brandon Stanton, creator of Humans of New York. He had some interesting opinions about visiting prisoners, opening his mind to understand more about their story, but still drawing conclusions about "shoulds" regarding accountability. From Brain Pickings:
DEBBIE MILLMAN: Do people scare you with some of their stories — do you hear things that frighten you?
BRANDON STANTON: It’s a good question. There’s a large range of human experience… I just went to five different federal prisons and I interviewed thirty inmates. I think that the truth — and this is a dangerous line to draw, because you get into moral relativism — but I think the truth is always exculpatory… If you dig down into why this woman strangled this 11-year-old girl, you learn about her paranoid schizophrenia, which she didn’t know was schizophrenia — she thought [there] were people talking to her. And then if you dig back even further than that, you find out about the uncle who raped her every night, from the age of seven to eleven. And you start to realize that these people are acting with the information that they had about the world, and they were speaking in the language that they knew.
And once you dig down to that level, everything can be explained.
DEBBIE MILLMAN: It’s a very compassionate, very generous view of humanity.
BRANDON STANTON: And, it’s not a view that can be necessarily acted upon — because there needs to be…
DEBBIE MILLMAN: …what is excusable and what is forgivable.
BRANDON STANTON: Exactly. And you do need to draw those lines. You had schizophrenia? I’m sorry, you killed somebody… [But] this is one thing this prison series really opened up to me — the schism in America between compassion and accountability, and it is a schism that runs through every comment section I have where somebody admits something [difficult].
DEBBIE MILLMAN: Do people scare you with some of their stories — do you hear things that frighten you?
BRANDON STANTON: It’s a good question. There’s a large range of human experience… I just went to five different federal prisons and I interviewed thirty inmates. I think that the truth — and this is a dangerous line to draw, because you get into moral relativism — but I think the truth is always exculpatory… If you dig down into why this woman strangled this 11-year-old girl, you learn about her paranoid schizophrenia, which she didn’t know was schizophrenia — she thought [there] were people talking to her. And then if you dig back even further than that, you find out about the uncle who raped her every night, from the age of seven to eleven. And you start to realize that these people are acting with the information that they had about the world, and they were speaking in the language that they knew.
And once you dig down to that level, everything can be explained.
DEBBIE MILLMAN: It’s a very compassionate, very generous view of humanity.
BRANDON STANTON: And, it’s not a view that can be necessarily acted upon — because there needs to be…
DEBBIE MILLMAN: …what is excusable and what is forgivable.
BRANDON STANTON: Exactly. And you do need to draw those lines. You had schizophrenia? I’m sorry, you killed somebody… [But] this is one thing this prison series really opened up to me — the schism in America between compassion and accountability, and it is a schism that runs through every comment section I have where somebody admits something [difficult].
First! :D
ReplyDelete"Should" is always contextual: what is the goal?
ReplyDeleteBy understanding each others' stories, we better understand the humans we encounter, and we understand how society emerges from these individual interactions.
From this point, we create "experiments" (ideologies, methods, approaches) that are more likely to work.
Consider that retribution / reparation is an innate drive and difficult to repress. How angry we feel when someone takes what is ours! That anger can inspire all sorts of responses.
Now see how we have instituted justice systems to more effectively satisfy what is a very real biological driver to safeguard equitable treatment.
As social animals, we implicitly accept what has been called "the social contract." We do trade some personal liberties for the safety and opportunities we find in the group. The fact is this, interaction with society is so tightly wired into who we are - yes, even for psychopaths - because it is so foundational to our survival as individuals and as a species.
This social contract then requires responsibility for our actions. We have freedom to act; but if our actions damage other members of the group it is inevitable that we will be held to account through any reasonably available avenue. This is why justice systems are an efficiency! And probably a mercy: reparation is standardised and adjusts to social norms (via case law and legislation).
And this is precisely why narrative is important. This is how mercy, operating primarily at the personal level, can work to influence justice (and other structural institutions), operating at the level of society.
But the narrative must be balanced for models to hold true and changes to normed understandings to stick.
While we have freedom to act as we choose, we are social creatures in need of our groups and thus inevitably bound by responsibility.
Creating more accurate models of understanding is critical to maximising utility - the greatest good for the greatest number.
Yes. The social contract. Very important. And don't forget to read the fine print. Also refered to as gossip. :-P
ReplyDeleteHaha, yes! That social lubricant!
DeleteThere's an article on Science Daily about chit-chat in primates and its role in bonding. I've been averse to chit-chat all my life - until now. **-* steers clear of it with the exception of his strategic coffee catchups. How does your sociofriend go with idle chat?
I do hate chit chat myself. But Barbara walters has built a fortune around it. What does it tell you...
DeleteChit chat and gossip demonstrate to you either what people feel or what they think they ought to feel. And what they think YOu ought to feel. This is powerful. People make little waves to see how others react. Other people catch the wave. And yet others ride the wave to the point of political correctness. Then eventually the wave crashes. Critical thinking can take years to set in. Or centuries. Think religion...
My sociofriend is not in a good place right now. But if I look at the past 5 or 6 years that I have known him, I have to say that he does create gossip. He agitates. He sounds quite different on this front than **-*. But again, he is young and finding his feet. Perhaps **-* has found his.
I would like to hear more about **-* strategic coffee breaks..were they wave starters. Wave breakers. Or just boring weather chats. Or anything else.
I was thinking today how strategic everything the socio said was. But it always seemed like chit chat or gossip. It was always about someone and was always random and negative
DeleteWe definitely like to shit-disturb. :-)
DeleteA what does that mean exactly?
DeleteStick around and I might show you. ;)
DeleteSassy!!!
Delete"Critical thinking can take years to set in. Or centuries. Think religion..."
DeleteThis made me laugh. "evolution is famous for caring a whole lot less about truth than it does about survival and reproduction. If believing the sky is purple and every rustle in the bushes is a cranky yeti leads to having more babies, then so be it, says evolution."
"My sociofriend is not in a good place right now."
Sorry to hear that.
"I have to say that he does create gossip. He agitates."
I think **-* "plants seeds" and he tests his lies and ways of saying things when the outcome matters to him. He also uses people to shore up his validity in people's eyes. Otherwise, he is highly introverted and keeps to himself.
North the planting seeds thing. What a strange concept. A way to remember them I guess. I mean they know they are going to be long gone. I wonder what the point is of all that. Energy? I experienced a lot of it. I wish I could get into more detail. I didn't get it at the time. But I did notice a lot of playing people against each other. I don't tend to do that and it really upset them that they couldn't "make it work " with me. I mean the time and energy they put into it all. Wow.
DeleteIts interesting north-you speak a lot about biologically drives us. I am very interested in that. But with sociopaths I am extremely interested in the why. There almost seems to be a tangible energy they seek. Something in the bridges they burn. It seems to do more than light their way. It seems to be life giving. An absolute necessity.
DeleteTrust in God alone and don't fear "them." If any harm comes to anyone it is because God allows it to and if any good comes its because God brings it. I didn't believe in any of this energy / Jinn business (or God) last year when I was being invaded by them. Only when God saved me did I realize what was happening. "They" tried their utmost to bring me down and I was, in my ignorance and trauma, trying to go along, despite the fact that just like you, I detested most of what they wanted me to do.
DeleteOne thing I never understood was why people fear them if they believe in God. Who has ultimate control in the world? These are nothing but trials which God tries people with. The more you fear them, the more power they have over you. The more you trust God, the more protection you have.
Qur'an Chapters 113 and 114 (last two, small chapters) work wonders. Don't give in to the invaders!
Peace.
And north-have you read about the pineal gland? You might find it interesting. Especially the mythology surrounding it.
DeleteThank you Jonaid for the kind words. :-)
DeleteThank God I'd likely be giving you the opposite advise if it weren't for him.
Delete"Every soul must taste of death and We try you by evil and good by way of probation; and to Us you shall be brought back."
Qur'an 21:35
Anon 9:15
Delete"There almost seems to be a tangible energy they seek. Something in the bridges they burn. It seems to do more than light their way. It seems to be life giving. An absolute necessity."
An absolute necessity, yes. I can see it in his eyes and body: he is the game. I think in his mind he is the game. He can't lose.
I'm working on a hypothesis that I first posted a couple of weeks ago. I haven't quite crystallised the idea yet, but it something like this:
Survival for a human animal is almost predicated on social inclusion. I say almost because we can survive independently but it's terribly resource intensive and there's reduced chance of nourishing the survival of one's genepool.
Neurotypicals have a social apparatus that facilitates (ie seeks) collaboration through "connection." Collaboration and contribution to the group improves social status and thus increases safety for the genepool. Etc.
Psychopaths have a quite different social apparatus that still seeks to maintain social connection. Without the richer mechanisms neurotypicals enjoy (which are essentially response shortcuts), psychopaths use power as a proxy. Diminishing others reduces their power and increases the psychopath's. There is, unfortunately, less scope for them to contribute to the longevity of their wider genepool. That's why these energy transactions are critical for them, and ever present in their minds.
For psychopaths, power is a proxy for social connection designed to safeguard social position and hence improve chances of personal survival.
Of course, power is useful for neurotypicals too; but it's NOT useful for its own sake - it is in fact an overhead when taken for its own sake.
No doubt this hypothesis can be strengthened, but I think there's great potential for explanatory power and it can provide a good foundation for testing out practices that provide a better qualitative experience of life for everyone.
Will read up on the pineal gland :) Thanks for the reference.
DeleteNorth your welcome. :-) and I agree with you on so many points-but -in reference to the genepool. Think harem. I think they are actually a bit ahead in that area.
DeleteYup, they excel at sexual selection. But that's only part of it. Natural selection is broader: advantage should be conferred to offspring.
DeleteCF grandmother effect, for example:
G.C. Williams was the first to posit[14] that menopause might be an adaptation. Williams suggested that at some point during evolution, it became advantageous for females to stop "dividing [their] declining faculties between the care of extant offspring and the production of new ones" (p. 408). Since a female's dependent offspring would die as soon as she did, he argued, older mothers should stop producing new babies and focus on the offspring they already had. In so doing, they would avoid the risk of dying during childbirth and thereby eliminate a potential threat to the continued survival of current offspring.
And genepool is much wider than offspring. Homosexuals can confer evolutionary advantage to other members of their tribe.
Actually, we're not under huge selection pressures right now so it's less clear, but think about times of disruption such as war or massive environmental events. And that's when diversity within the species is most beneficial.
Harem. Yup!
DeleteAh. And
Delete"That's why these energy transactions are critical for them, and ever present in their minds."
That sentence should have gone before the one about genepools.
Thanks for the feedback.
I don't necessarily agree that it is all about furthering the species. I know that goes against *everything *and I can't exactly explain it . I think it's more like it is continued despite itself. Quantity over quality.
DeleteIn other words I think contempt for one's own species is the key. There is something more immediate-selfish-almost host /parasite like that I think will always override any evolutionary urges to continue the species. This is the main difference to me. I think this is where the why comes in. What is more important than the continuation of the species?
DeleteI can't help thinking of Adams soliloquy on this thread or the next about why he wouldn't want to bring children into a world like this. I have heard that same speech many, many times.
DeleteI do believe your correct in that it can be summed up as an immediate need to flourish independently while diminishing but not altogether depleting supply. But is continuing the species even necessary for them? Do they care if there are more sociopaths? is that even important to them on an evolutionary level?
DeleteNorth I apologize. A lot of this is myself talking my way thru a problem. Like working it backwards. :-) it is all such a strange concept to me.
DeleteThanks for your thoughts, I enjoy reading them.
DeleteWhat do you think is behind that sort of speech?
I do a lot of talking my way through the problem here :) It's all good.
Alan Watts says what is discord at one level is harmony at the next. What we feel as discord is playing into the harmony of species survival. This must be the case because psychopaths exist - and have existed - within the human population at a rate of about 1%.
That's a significant proportion. It means we should take seriously the view there is a species benefit to their existence and consider the implications for our understanding of the human condition.
I consider this an incredible opportunity to question all the assumptions we make about our own humanity: things we take for granted turn out to be variable. So our common conceptions ought to change if we are to know ourselves better. Knowing ourselves better gives us better tools by which to navigate and thrive.
But this is merely my particular brand of curiosity. It was never sufficient to me to write psychopaths off as evil to make myself feel better - there are so many lessons to learn.
And this partially so we are not blindsided with incomprehensible behaviour again :)
You seem to have your own questions to answer and you'll find ways to answer them. It's an amazing process through which we learn the depth of power within our own brains, far deeper than cognisant thought. It knows what it's doing here. And emotion is the best gift because it creates an environment for neuroplasticity to occur. And neuroplasticity means new pathways. It means we are learning, adapting.
It's honestly the most incredible thing learning to trust my own self as I do now. Everything that once was limiting me is slowly being resolved and I'm becoming whole - meaning I can better integrate the capacities of my brain, many of which I'd previously been blocking.
I guess you can see the process is increasingly about self and less about them as time goes on :)
"I think it's more like it is continued despite itself. Quantity over quality."
DeleteThis is an interesting point that can perhaps be addressed with resilience theory. Diversity rather than specialisation buffers against environmental turbulence. At the moment, collaboration is still going gangbusters evolutionarily speaking. It may not always be the case, though, with different and unforeseen pressures.
Diverse species adapt quickly and survive. We have a range of strengths.
What I'm doing and it might seem strange too is flipping my understanding of the species to account first for the data. That means conceptions that don't fit the data just have to go.
Like morality. It flat out doesn't fit the data. People presuppose the model (eg if a God-given morality or as morality being a primary driver for behaviour) and it just doesn't fit. Doesn't fit, doesn't work. That's why I'm trying to create models that do have good explanatory power. That will help everyone.
I don't want to be constrained in ideological boxes. It surprises the fuck out of me that psychopaths do sit in those boxes. But this tells me they do have a stronger link to society than perhaps they understand.
So much happens beneath the surface.
I should perhaps say that *we understand.
Delete@ North at 1.22pm:
DeleteAs you are, finally, 'getting there', I'll respond.
"they do have a stronger link to society than perhaps they understand."
'They' LOL understand *very well*. LOL. Have you any idea how many current world/corporate/media leaders are psychopathic?
[no psychopathic does not mean criminal, as some would like you all to believe].
"Diversity rather than specialisation buffers against environmental turbulence."
There you go. Just as you have an emotional majority, the sheep, you also have a 1% minority, the sheepdogs [psychopaths], and another ~ 1% minority, the ASD scientists/technologists, and another minority, the 'neurotic' artists/creatives.
*If* people with psychopathic traits are abused [in early childhood] they become wolves, not the sheepdogs. Simple enough?
So all the 'majority' would have to do, to stop that, would be to be very very very nice [but disciplined] re children with CU traits. But the 'majority' can't even manage that.
Regarding the traits: one cannot make harsh, utilitarian decisions in times of difficulty, without become deranged, if one has affective empathy. Nor can one lead, without fearlessness, charm, charisma, 'aloofness', boldness, and independence of mind. A 'heroic' mindset, in other words. That, in essence, is a primary psychopath.
No amount of angsting on silly websites will change the fact that human 'sheep' need ruthless leaders/protectors in tough times.
And those times..are coming.
"That's why I'm trying to create models that do have good explanatory power. That will help everyone."
Don't bother. Evolutionary psychology got there first - in the 1970's. Google the 'Orchid and Dandelion Children' Theory, first outlined by Scandinavian social psychologists in the mid-1970's.
"At the moment, collaboration is still going gangbusters evolutionarily speaking."
Probably a teeny bit of an optimistic evaluation of evolutionary success: over-breeding and over-exploiting resources within a closed environment, sufficient to destabilise an entire planet's climate. Very 'successful'?
"It may not always be the case, though, with different and unforeseen pressures."
LOL. Yep. Roll on the next few hundred years. Except they're not so 'unforseen', by those with rational minds.
While I do admire that your annoyance at a former boyfriend eventually led you to the glimmers of these conclusions, it would have been swifter had you researched aspects of neuro-psychology and social and evolutionary psychology instead.
Science always trumps assumptions and cognitive biases.
[Do not read this as callous and impolite.] I am merely demonstrating, overtly, how this mindset really 'thinks'.
XK
North thank you for addressing my ramblings. I do think it's important to take things apart and put them back together. I do have a lot of questions and evil just is over simplifying it. We need to go deeper. I do think sociopaths are fine if we just say they are evil and go on. I think more in terms of energy. Positive and negative. And you can just feel the negative energy oozing sometimes can't you.....
DeleteLOL
DeleteIndeed one can.
XK
"I am merely demonstrating, overtly, how this mindset really 'thinks'."
DeleteIndeed. I perceive the instrumental nature of your language.
"And you can just feel the negative energy oozing sometimes can't you....."
Yes. Energy of any type can be effectively harnessed, though.
Was it you who said something along the lines of the experience not overwhelming who you are? Any energy can be transformed into that which nourishes us and develops us. The deeper our own core grows, the more effectively we can use this technique. It's tremendously beautiful.
As A says, one gives themselves away with many tells.
DeleteWith you, it's the use of emotive language ("sheep", "sheepdogs" etc) then the switch to claiming objectivity.
The rest is filler, holographic arguments that aren't worth the slice of my blade through the air.
I'm integrative. You won't find destruction with me either way.
North my lost innocence was not a "loss" more than it was my unconscious nature illuminated ,brought to the surface and made incandescent.
DeleteIt's incredible, isn't it. The most wonderful thing is growing into that hidden nature more everyday.
DeleteI wrote this less than a month after our relationship ended, before I understood he was a psychopath:
"You conquered corners of my landscape I didn't know existed. You've left, and I am wasted, but one day there'll be flowered meadows in this wilderness. "
It's amazing to look back and find my subconscious has been slowly, day by day, cultivating those lost parts of me.
“My dear,
In the midst of hate, I found there was, within me, an invincible love.
In the midst of tears, I found there was, within me, an invincible smile.
In the midst of chaos, I found there was, within me, an invincible calm.
I realized, through it all, that…
In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.
And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.
Truly yours,
Albert Camus”
An invincible summer. I took it for granted that it was somewhere within us all. I wish it could be.
Delete@ North at 4.49pm:
Delete"With you, it's the use of emotive language ("sheep", "sheepdogs" etc) then the switch to claiming objectivity."
Wrong. I was [again] paraphrasing; in this case the speech at the start of 'American Sniper', when the father tells the son at the table during a meal, that there are three types of people: 'the sheep, which he [the father] has no desire to be raising, the sheepdogs, who guard the sheep, and the wolves, who prey on the sheep. The father puts his folded belt on the table, and looks at his son, and asks him which is he, a wolf or sheepdog. [The son had previously beaten up a schoolboy at school who was bullying his younger brother]. The son tells the father about that; the father looks to the younger son, who nods [that that the older son was telling the truth]. The father than asks the older son [who grew up to be the 'all- American' hero in the movie American Sniper]:
"Did you finish it?"
The older son nods, and the father is satisfied.
The scene was as explanation why the guy went on to do four tours in Iraq, till he'd killed a crack sniper from 'the other side', then he went home to his family.
"The rest is filler, holographic arguments that aren't worth the slice of my blade through the air."
You truly are an airhead. I pity you.
XK
More people need to be on http://sociopath-community.com/
ReplyDelete!!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!
Goddamn ME refused to reconnect the blog to the forum so we SC goers will just have to spam advertisements for the forum in the comments section. ;)
"If you dig down into why this woman strangled this 11-year-old girl, you learn about her paranoid schizophrenia, which she didn’t know was schizophrenia — she thought [there] were people talking to her."
ReplyDeleteI hope it's plain to everyone that the only reason why we call it a disorder ("paranoid schizophrenia") is because psychologists start off with the assumption that if it's not easily empirically verifiable it's not real. There is no explanation whatsoever (other than the obvious) for why millions of human beings have - and have always had in recorded history - experiences of seeing and hearing "people" that are "not there." I'm sure there are psychologists who know full well that these are not delusions but don't acknowledge it - for the same reasons why most people don't - fear or ulterior motive.
Sleep paralysis is another pseudo diagnosis because we refuse to acknowledge the obvious. I can understand the brain freezing up during a certain stage but why on earth would EVERYONE have the same "hallucinations" all over the world, at all times (past and present)? I swear if one person said they saw a George Carlin stand-up while paralyzed we'd have some reason to assume it's "random."
Don't be afraid of the boogie men - they feed off of fear. Seek refuge in God and you'll be okay!
Trust in God and know they can't harm you...or benefit you (for anyone who's on good terms with their boogie man). Any "feel good" or "power" sensations are a facade they use to lure you in. Steadily they make you destroy your own humanity...but only if you willingly go along with them.
DeleteKind of like how your "prophet" had mysterious seizures in the bed of his child bride at the moment of his "inspiration", right Joanie?
ReplyDeleteAnd isn't it *wild* how everytime Mohammed wanted something, God granted it to him by "special revelation"? Indeed, Muhammad seemed to have quite a penchant for receiving revelation from Allah just-in-time to absolve him of misconduct.
Four is decreed as the maximum number of wives a mere mortal man may take? Not so for Mohammed!
Sura 33:50 - O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses -- whom God has given to you, and the daughters of your 'Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your 'Ammah (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khâl (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khâlah (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her; a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers.
When Mohammed decided he preferred some members of his extensive harem by-special-permission-only, Allah conveniently sent him a "revelation" about that too!
Sura 33:51 - You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive whom you will. And whomsoever you desire of those whom you have set aside (her turn temporarily), it is no sin on you (to receive her again), that is better; that they may be comforted and not grieved, and may all be pleased with what you give them. God knows what is in your hearts. And God is Ever All-Knowing, Most Forbearing.
Aisha, the favorite wife of Muhammad, was very discerning of his just-in-time revelations. After Muhammad received the verse above, Aisha commented, "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." (al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311)
I've got a several more examples regarding his wives, but I'll stop there, for now, because I want to make room for the next "special revelation", which I'm sure you'll agree is quite... remarkable. :)
DeleteAs you know, Pre-Islamic Mecca was a hotbed of paganism and polytheism. It is said 360 idols surrounded the Kabah and were worshipped as gods. Thus, when Muhammad first began preaching monotheism and denouncing the other 359 gods, he was met with much resistance and hostility.
In an attempt to appease the Meccans, Mohammed one night had a "revelation" found in Sura 53:19-22, which originally read, "Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat the third, the other; these are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved."
Al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat were three female deities, known as daughters of Allah. (Isn't it interesting how similar "Al-Lat" and "Allah" are by virtue of semantic comparison?)
By this revelation, Mohammed acknowledged these deities as worthy of worship and whose intercession in heaven was to be sought. Later, the angel Gabriel chastised Muhammad for uttering these verses and informed him that Satan, not Allah, had put these words in Muhammad's mouth. Thus, these verses are known as the Satanic Verses.
Muhammad then conveniently received another just-in-time revelation to relieve him of any wrongdoing:
Sura 22:52 - Never did We send an apostle or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but God will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and God will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for God is full of Knowledge and Wisdom.
Aaah yes. Full of knowledge and wisdom, with nothing to do but sit around and grant Mohammed's every desire- even though he occasionally channels Satan instead of God. :)
Until he was deceived, poisoned and killed by a *Jewish woman* because he was too stupid and megalomaniacal to realize that she *might* hold a grudge against the asshole who slaughtered her entire family before her very eyes- such an empathetic man was he.
No biggie, right?
Except... Joanie, baby.... you said that the Bible never contradicts the Qu'ran.
Here's an Old Testament shocker for you:
But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death." (Deuteronomy 18:20)
Hmm. So maybe *THAT'S* why ol' Mo was killed in precisely the manner that Allah reserved for false prophets- his death signed with a flourish of ironic, poetic justice.
*Snigger* XD
Joanie, I'm not feelin' the love. Since you've said before that you are *NOT* a coward who refuses to address "legitimate" critiques of Islam, I wonder why you did not respond to the comment I made on the previous blog post?
DeleteWhat's the matter, Joanie? You are usually so loquacious. Cat got your tongue? ;)
Legitimate critiques come from legitimate people. You're just parroting what you read on an anti-Islam website and readily believe everything as cynically as you understand it. There's no criticism of Islam that you could inform me of that I'm not already familiar with.
DeleteYes I got my answers to all these and more and still know without a doubt that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the Messenger of God and the greatest man who ever lived. When you grow up, become a serious person, then perhaps I can invest the time to correct you.
Good Night.
Tsk, tsk, tsk...
DeleteI think those were perfectly legitimate critiques.
However...
Joanie, if you're already "familiar with" the critiques, why didn't you address them? Shouldn't defending your faith from critiques that could decrease the number of potential converts be your sworn duty as a "true believer"?
If you know the arguments, which should indicate that you should know how to refute them, why didn't you do so? Seems strange not to use your vast knowledge to prove the legitimacy of your faith, considering you spend an inordinate amount of time quoting quran, babbling on and on about the "greatness" of your faith (very badly, I might add) and trying to convert people.
A's legitimate critiques get in the way of that goal, therefore, your refusal to address those legitimate critiques is against God's wishes and your personal goal of spreading the word of God because it potentially reduces the number of potential converts (from zero to zero).
If somebody is not a "serious person" and harms the image of your faith, shouldn't you, as a true believer, have a sworn duty to do God's bidding and patiently try to prove that person wrong, or at least prevent the "damage" that that person can cause to the image of your faith, due to the reduced number of believers that the damage to the image of the faith could cause? Isn't your refusal to "invest the time" the easy, lazy way out, which is what the Devil wishes you to do? :-)
I don't see you writing any answers that you supposedly got to all those legitimate critiques. Therefore, I can conclude that you are just deluding yourself, bragging and lying to both yourself and everyone else. It does not matter if she got the critiques from an anti-islam website, by reading the quran, or if a bum told her - legitimate critiques are legitimate critiques, and if you cannot address them simply because you do not want to invest the time, despite your claims that you would not give up on trying to "save" somebody, then that tells me that you are a lazy, immature, lying person that gets easily offended, cannot stand his ground and fight, and cannot keep his promises, a person that runs away and cries "unfair" when he encounters a setback of any magnitude; a weak, pathethic person that does not take his own personal beliefs and claims seriously enough, therefore, he never grew up and became a serious person.
Based on the contents of your comment above, which lacks any "legitimate critiques", I can conclude that you are not one of the "legitimate people". Therefore, you are not only a narcissist that just lashed out using logical fallacies, but, by your logic, an illegitimate person. An unserious, illegitimate person :-)
SE, you beat me to it. :D
DeleteAnd damn girl, your analysis is spot-on. Very sharp.
@Joanie...
Translation: I refuse to engage you in debate because I am painfully aware of how you will *utterly demolish* my petty arguments. Stop trying to make Yellow-Belly Boulevard sound like the high road. XD
You say you are aware of all these problems with Islam, and more (lol)- but you refuse to address them until “I grow up”? What about your “sincere readers”, who could benefit from how you soundly correct me? Don’t you think you’re being rather selfish, considering that you are on a jihad to save us all? Lol.
Look, either those verses are there- saying what they *IN FACT SAY* - or they aren't, and they don't. Right? The Satanic verses exist. Mohammed's marriage to a prepubescent girl is well-documented, as is the fact that he was a warlord who ordered the dismembering, decapitation and crucifixion of many people. Amongst other choice descriptors, he was known by his Jewish and Christian historical contemporaries as a false prophet, a demon-possessed madman, a precursor to the antichrist, and the devil incarnate. He died at the hands of a Jewish woman, oft repeating that it was “as though Allah had severed his aorta”- the penalty decreed by Allah for false prophets *in the Qu’ran*. These are FACTS, Joanie- many of them derived from your own sacred sources. Facts are not subject to your personal preferences and pet delusions. They are easily verifiable. So *why don’t you do that*, instead of running away like a milquetoast coward with your hands over your ears, shouting la-la-la-la-la-LA?
You refuse to engage me on CORE issues and problems, every time you are confronted, because your position is WEAK, and you know it. When examined critically, it falls apart. It is thoroughly indefensible. And I will continue to tear it down.
It is a pattern within Islam (and, what a shocker, in you) to cherish delusions to the detriment of truth. Your revisionist imams say the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem is merely the spot where Mohammed tethered the flying horse (al-Buraq), who purportedly carried him on his alleged “night journey” to Jerusalem- this you consider to be more important historical evidence than a temple made of stone! The Waqf has literally been destroying precious archaeological evidence for decades in an attempt to refute the historical presence of the Jews in Israel. But the TRUTH is out there… And it WILL NOT remain entombed. :)
So good night, dear Joanie.
For now. ;)
I'm not a girl, though. But thank you for the compliment ;-)
DeleteHmmm...
Will Joanie's next comment be about tails? Oooh, I can hardly wait, the excitement is killing me! :-)
Oops. Pardon me. :)
DeleteI'm not sure why I assumed that... Probably too quick a read of an earlier comment. You don't even sound particularly feminine to me. :P
Well, we're even. Everyone here always seems to think I'm a guy. XD
As for Joanie... He *might* tell us to mind the tail, but if we're REALLY lucky, he'll spice it up, and accuse us of being the same poster... Or better yet, the abusive ex who jilted him! That's always fun. :D
But I think it's wishful thinking.
We'll probably get insecurity masquerading as moral superiority, and a shitload more Qu'ran quotes. :P
Oh, and don't you forget the sudden appearance of her "legitimate logic" she generously gifts us with from time to time, which seems suspiciously similar to amphetamine overindulgence, something Joanie absolutely, unqestionably does not need nor want to do after she suddenly "found God". Fun times! :-)
DeleteI was with my grandpa (non-socio side) and my mom was telling me how good his cooking was. It reminded me of my "friend" who said he can cook good too. Maybe he'll come to his senses one day and we'll discuss all these important matters over a dinner prepared by him.
DeleteHave a nice day!
No pork or wine tho! :-)
DeleteHaw haw haw!
DeleteWhat do we have here???
Hmmm, let me see...
Two comments that completely ignore any points and accusations made by me or A, in which the commenter, Joanie, reminds us that he is still hoping to "save his old love" - however, as was already deduced, the subject is not really willing to go all the way to "save" somebody, thus making the insinuation irrelevant, a simplistic delusion of a highly narcissistic mind.
The sudden feigning of nonchalance reveals several things;
A high probability of an intense desire to "prove" that he can be "bad and sociopathic" - however, the seconds comment, in which Joanie mentions pork and wine, betrays his thinking and intentions.
The first comment, in his opinion, was not "showy" enough, so he had a compulsion to write another comment that "proves and soldifies" the "nonchalance", which also betrays his concern about the "presentation", thus meaning that all that indiffirence is feigned and "artificial" - it was all just for show.
The sentence, "Maybe he'll come to his senses one day and we'll discuss all these important matters over a dinner prepared by him.", exposes the underlying anger and resentment, ineffectively camouflaged as "not giving a fuck". It was also highly likely intended to induce feelings of guilt and as a show of moral superiority and "fairness". "Have a nice day!" was intended to further the "nonchalance", but instead it too betrays the negative feelings exhibited by the individual.
The second comment also exposes the desire to affirm the "uncaringness" - a narcissistic urge to appear "absolutely perfect".
What I can conclude from Joanie's comments is that the subject is, in high probability, very envious of individuals exhibiting psychopathic traits, and will go to great lengths to undermine individuals exhibiting those traits, while simultaneously (and unsuccessfully) trying to "emulate" those traits from time to time.
The subject has shown, multiple times, a desire to defeat psychopathic individuals "at their own game", which backfired spectacularly, furthering the envy and desire to both undermine and "copy" those individuals.
So, it looks like your comment was nothing but a rambling about the abusive ex who jilted you... Lol!
Try again, narc ;-)
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DeleteYou see this is just one price YOU have to pay for screwing your own mind by screwing others. You can't help but see the truth IN YOUR FACE which confirms everything you know (but can't admit) as anything BUT that. Don't lose hope tho - deep down there's a good heart buried and when it's finally freed everything will be fine.
DeleteBeautiful weather again today. Enjoy that instead of wasting your time on your incorrect diagnoses. Hint: when your brain and heart both agree on the diagnosis, you'll KNOW it's right.
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DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteNorth, I read and appreciated your comment on the children of narcissism. I was going to comment on it. Do I have your permission to re-post it?
DeleteOh.. I just noticed that you deleted it because you posted it in the wrong place. I've done that too. Kindly disregard my comment. :)
DeleteHa!
DeleteAnd now we are greeted by...
INSECURITY MASQUERADING AS MORAL SUPERIORITY! DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!
Should the individual, at some point in his life, happen to develop a narcissistic personality disorder, most likely due to insufficent reception of "love" and "attention" in childhood, that individual will, if he finds all his "pre-packaged presentations" not working, as the "uncomfortable truths" successfully get past his inner "narcissistic mirror", he shall then lash out at the perceived perpetrator, or an originator, of bad feelings, which are caused due to something called "a narcissistic injury".
When in this state, the subject will feel threatened, projecting his own weaknesses and (highly likely faulty) preconceptions towards the perpetrator of the narcissistic injury, intending to intimidate the originator, to instill "guilt", and to regain "control".
I find it funny that you should tell me not to waste my time, yet you frequently frequent here and perpetually waste your time. Lol!
Hint: both my heart and my brain agree on my diagnoses of you. Therefore, by your logic, they are true, and you should then accept them.
Listen to your heart AND your mind, Joanie! Only then can you truly be free of the incomprehensibly insidious blackness which hath subtly but surely enveloped both your body and your soul! You know I am right! Listen to me and be free, you poor confusedly lost childe!
XD
Hahaha!
DeleteYou're poised to take over my job. ;)
Well done.
Hehehehehehe ;-)
DeleteThank you for the compliment.
And how can we not love Joanie when she provides us with such a priceless, high quality, free, renewable service for impulse management? A true godsend she is! XD
And now, to complete it all, we shall hear something really special, dedicated just for Joanie:
I got no reason, to lie to you
What's in the cards, that's what I do
I was born a-running & laughing out loud
With my feet on the ground & my head in the clouds
You better run, baby you'd better run
I got a blade like lightning, silver bullets in my gun
I'm short & I'm tall, I'm black & I'm white
Sometimes I be wrong, sometimes I be right
I'm iron & steel, and I'm bad to the bone
You come looking for trouble, honey don't you come alone
You better run, baby you'd better run
I got a blade like lightning, silver bullets in my gun
I seen 'em come, & I seen 'em go,
I seen things & been people, that nobody knows
I'm talking in pictures and I'm painting them black,
I seen Satan coming honey in a big black Cadillac
You better run, baby you'd better run
I got a blade like lightning, silver bullets in my gun
I guess I was wrong about the heart and brain then.
DeleteAll this just to avoid saying "I'm sorry." You really need to look into yourself and do some soul searching.
DeleteSoul searching..? Hm. I suppose that means you think I should be sorry for being such an "illegitimate person", and flattered that you would risk dining with a demon, but alas, I'm an unapologetic foodie. And what's a good meal without a nice Chianti, or a Cabarnet Sauvignon aged in French oak barrels? :)
DeleteBesides, I would never eat or drink anything you had a hand in preparing. After all, I'm smarter than Muhammad. XD
Hmmm...
DeleteHow to draw out a narcissist that ran away? Let's see...
Oh, I think I know what to do!
Ahem...
Joanie, I win! ;-)
Hey Jonaid -
DeleteIs this true?
https://i.imgur.com/cbwrhM1.jpg
I wouldn't have a hand in preparing it - I can't cook for my life. The idea was you'd do the cooking and I'm not worried about being poisoned.
DeleteI hope you find peace.
You said:
Delete"I was with my grandpa (non-socio side) and my mom was telling me how good his cooking was. It reminded me of my "friend" who said he can cook good too. Maybe he'll come to his senses one day and we'll discuss all these important matters over a dinner prepared by him."
You will have to forgive my pronoun antecedent "confusion". I considered both possibilities in responding, and decided that I would *NOT* cater to the delusions borne of your narcissistic injury. I do not generally respond to "him", so I chose to assume you meant your grandfather.
:D
I hope you find peace.
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid" (John 14:27)
I am at peace, thank you. I am not troubled, nor am I ever afraid. My eternal security does not depend upon the whim of a capricious and vengeful god.
I would wish for you the same.
More proof you only throw out fancy words but can't understand the simplest statements.
DeleteYou used to be a lot smarter.
More proof you only throw out fancy words but can't understand the simplest statements.
DeleteComing from someone who cannot read and follow simple steps - get ingredients, mix them, turn on the stove, turn off the stove - from a mere cookbook!
Lol!
Hey, now... Good cooking is an art that took me years to master. :)
DeleteHe just needs to look up pronoun-antecedent accord to understand what I did there, because I think it flew right over his head.
Except, I stuck my keyboard in my mouth whilst trying to be clever, because he referred to his "friend" as male too. D-oh.
Delete*Facepalm*
See all the trouble you're causing by refusing to acknowledge that I'm too much woman for you, Joanie? XD
Hey, now... Good cooking is an art that took me years to master. :)
DeleteYou see Joanie, even after all you did, she still decided to help you out and rebuked my argument, just for you. How can you be so dismissive and accusatory towards such a great paragon of fairness?? How evil and opportunistic of you, you empathy-deficient misfit!
:-)
Everyone has their unique skills and talents. I think you'd learn Classical Arabic much more easily than I would.
DeleteI'd rather learn Hebrew. :P
DeleteHold on, hold on... What's this my eyes see?
Delete...I think...
Holy shit! Joanie can think?? It's a miracle! The greatest and newest wonder of the world! :D
Adult Children of Narcissistic Parents grow up disempowered and disconnected from their authentic selves. They fear retribution, punishment and condemnation, and are their own harshest critics. Until they resolve the issues resulting from their upbringing, they struggle with a deep sense of inferiority and fear of rejection. ACONs are often either overachievers or underachievers.
ReplyDeleteAdult Children of Narcissists are well-practiced in the art of pretending they have no needs, believe that they must present as demand-less in order to gain others' acceptance, and that if they show their true wants and needs to others, they will be rejected.
I think it's time to deal with the real issues now. Thankfully, I've made a good start.
This direction has slowly crystallised over the last few weeks. I tried to write **-* a final letter for my book and had nothing to say. I completed the piece in saying it was my own story now.
Then my siblings and step mum opened up to me about how Dad affects them. Just in random conversations - the impacts are becoming clearer. I'm not the only one struggling with his shadow.
Then the experiment of seeing **-*
Then the plumber (clearly also an ACON) pointing out the answers I truly sought are from my father.
Then the rugby coach and my mini meltdown / realisation I don't need to prove anything to him.
And I've tested my ideas here: I'm clearly continuing on my own road, probably meandering down the neurotypical side of the mountain now. People IRL and in other forums are starting to take interest; I'm more likely to find potential collaborators elsewhere. I've said what I needed to say; as I wrote here and on Twitter
To retain our selfhood, yet to create space for the other is the boldest achievement, the richest life; it is awakening born of the unfathomable.
I feel I've done that sufficiently. My narrative is well rounded and refined enough to satisfy myself in its thoroughness. I'm not learning so much here anymore.
I've finished with **-*'s safety blanket. Time to throw back the covers and look the real monster in the eyes, hey.
Here's the piece I wrote in attempting a letter:
DeleteThis isn’t addressed to **-*.
With his tenderness, I allowed myself to access my own vulnerability. The softest of tears within me, the hidden well of sadness, the lost me. A forgotten being, trapped inside the mould made to fit my father’s inexorable presence. A forgotten being, whose sadness finally splintered through pressure cracks, leaking hot tears in his arms.
I need to cry forever, that’s how it feels. That these tears are something more than food.
To that deepest me: this is now your story.
I run away to the strength of my intellect, to my synthetic capability, because somehow this forgotten part is overwhelming me yet not ready to speak.
Do you really *feel* all of those things, North?
Delete**_* will not understand. I cannot say that I do, either- but I am glad for you that you are able to start... touching this spot that is for you, obviously still very raw. The good thing is that you've managed somehow to keep the wound uninfected, likely because you are currently in the process of debriding it. That interests me.
As you know, I was brought up by a psychopath, but I don't have these unresolved hurts- or any emotional recall at all, for that matter. To extend the analogy of "father wound", it is as though I took a searing brand to mine, and cleansed it by fire. It is inaccessible, now, because it is covered up in scar tissue, which is numb. And I wouldn't want to. I may be working at an affective disadvantage, but I am highly functional. I like who I am, and appreciate what made me this way. As you stated in a previous comment:
I now think we are all highly functional, cognisant organisms, differently equipped.
Thanks A. I'm gonna let this sit in my mind... Right now it's not clear enough to make a cogent answer and I'd ramble on in a thousand directions.
DeleteIn short, yes, I really feel this. And it is interesting the different ways we deal with our parents: I suppose another prompt for my switch of focus is seeing burgeoning narcissistic behaviours in my son (my ex-husband also being a narc.)
Please allow me some time to process over the day: it's too fluid right now. But I know one thing: I NEVER regret doing what I really feel like doing. I'm certain our subconscious is far my capable of processing the pertinent environmental factors than our rational mind can even credit. In this way, the rational mind becomes a planner of execution, a risk mitigator and a story creator rather than the true executive. I don't know what the corollary is with psychopaths but I sure would be interested to find out.
I'm certain our subconscious is far my capable of processing the pertinent environmental factors than our rational mind can even credit.
DeleteOh, absolutely. Read the book "The Gift of Fear". I am certain that you will gain something from it.
In this way, the rational mind becomes a planner of execution, a risk mitigator and a story creator rather than the true executive.
I always go with my gut. I'm well connected to my "primitive" self- to my visceral urges and promptings. It knows better than my rational mind how to orient me. And I am not constrained by an excessive concern with social norms, so I will not hesitate to risk flowing with and/or verbalizing my intuitions.
I want to touch on this a bit, too:
They fear retribution, punishment and condemnation, and are their own harshest critics.
I am my own harshest critic. I subject myself to the same lashings I dispense to others. But it doesn't "hurt" when I do it; it makes me stronger. And I don't "fear" retribution or punishment. I never have. Punishments never worked on me as a child. I refused to be forced to submit to anyone imposing their will upon me. I will fight back, aggressively, each and every single time- even if it is stupid for me to do so. I have an inordinately hard time being passive.
they struggle with a deep sense of inferiority and fear of rejection. ACONs are often either overachievers or underachievers.
I am an underachieving over-achiever, lol. I don't have an inferiority complex, though. I think I have a realistic and balanced view of my strengths and weaknesses.
Adult Children of Narcissists are well-practiced in the art of pretending they have no needs
Yes, well... I dislike relying on other people to meet my needs, unless it is within the context of a mutually decided and beneficial agreement. And I do not like making myself vulnerable to anyone.
"... believe that they must present as demand-less in order to gain others' acceptance, and that if they show their true wants and needs to others, they will be rejected.
Oh, no way. I can be very demanding, and I am very comfortable asserting myself. I learned not to care one iota what others think of me, beyond how it might interfere with my goals. I don't rely on anyone for internal validation, and I am not emotionally dependent on anyone, except perhaps my husband, but only to a limited extent. I can shut him out, too. I am self-contained. :P
I resent having demands placed upon me... So much so, that will invariably shake them off, unless I place them on myself of my own accord. And I frequently assume large amounts of responsibility- but I will only enter contracts that I architect, or explicitly agree to.
I don't know what the corollary is with psychopaths but I sure would be interested to find out
Perhaps I touched a bit upon what you are exploring, here.
To sum it up, go with your gut. Don't be afraid to trust and run with it.
North I'm the anon that was talking with you about family members making sciopathic behavior seem normal to us. Well almost normal. I realize I haven't spoken much about the sadness I've felt. It Been there though. And it comes and goes. I've thought how I can feel such disgust for the sociopath and sadness for my famoly member. They both have meant to hurt me. maybe it's because the sociopath opened my eyes to what I didn't want to see. Sociopaths constantly talk about the world being ugly. I never saw that before. Its not my innocence they took because my nature hasn't changed. Its my view of the world. That is something my family member never managed to do.
DeleteHi Anon,
Delete"Its not my innocence they took because my nature hasn't changed."
That's such a great insight and so liberating. It made me smile. And I think in time, it's your nature that will recolour your world - at least that has been my experience. Our lives extend far beyond their game, the duration of our journeys with them.
:)
The world turned ugly precisely because of psychopathic behavior. No one ever looks at genuine empathy and says "look how evil & ugly these people are." In fact the world remains bearable because of good people willing to sacrifice instead of selling out and becoming psychopathic themselves.
DeleteAh, good ol' "Joanie pseudo-logic" - always entertaining :-)
DeleteTime to get to work!
-----------------
Most people - the "neurotypicals", constituting, by my guesstimate, 85-90% of the world's population - have "genuine empathy". That means, by your logic, 85-95% of humans are good and will gladly sacrifice. Yet the instances of "heroism and sacrifice" are so tremendously rare that they are particularly memorable and newsworthy.
If "genuine empathy" automatically conveys "goodness", how come there are so few humans willing to do "good" despite most of them possessing "genuine empathy"?
And how come ~80% of incarcerated criminals aren't psychopaths lacking in empathy? Shouldn't empathy have stopped them from "doing bad things" and commiting crimes?
And let's not get into the various recognized types of empathy (cognitive and affective, both of them "genuine"), or the fact that psychopaths already possess "empathy" (cognitive empathy), or that recent research has shown that psychopaths do have the capability of empathy and can turn it on when they want to - http://www.livescience.com/38421-psychopaths-feel-empathy-when-they-try.html
And let me use your logic once again:
If all psychopaths do possess empathy, and empathy makes people good, that means all pychopaths are good. LOL :D
Hi A:
Delete"Read the book "The Gift of Fear". I am certain that you will gain something from it. "
Timely suggestion. Emerging with these realisations has been an inexplicable - but probably repressed - terror.*
I bought the book. Taking care of myself involves being more cognisant of signals fear can provide.
"I always go with my gut. I'm well connected to my "primitive" self- to my visceral urges and promptings. It knows better than my rational mind how to orient me. And I am not constrained by an excessive concern with social norms, so I will not hesitate to risk flowing with and/or verbalizing my intuitions."
Thankyou for this.
Subconsciously, I noticed **-* being like this and it's something I decided I wanted in my own life. To live in accordance with my own nature and from my explorations, and that does come down to the inherent trust in self you're describing. I'd say 99% of my progress has been because of this choice.
"I think I have a realistic and balanced view of my strengths and weaknesses."
This comes across as an important project to you.
"Yes, well... I dislike relying on other people to meet my needs, unless it is within the context of a mutually decided and beneficial agreement. And I do not like making myself vulnerable to anyone. "
mutually decided and beneficial agreement: This doesn't preclude benefit to the other party?
Vulnerability is something I've only explored over the last 5 weeks or so. My colleague was a very good model - we did open up to each other a little and this "vulnerability" was the risk of being taken advantage of against the benefit of trust and collaboration. And I learnt through this process to be "vulnerable" with myself first. And then it didn't seem like a big deal at all; it was more of the same process of allowing those blocked channels within me to open and I know how to do that no dramas.
The upshot, however, is that I'm largely able to meet my own emotional needs very holistically. At the moment, I can't even conceive of having an LTR or if I did, it would not be anything like I've imagined relationships to be in the past - probably a good thing, right!!
"Oh, no way. I can be very demanding, and I am very comfortable asserting myself. I learned not to care one iota what others think of me, beyond how it might interfere with my goals. I don't rely on anyone for internal validation, and I am not emotionally dependent on anyone, except perhaps my husband, but only to a limited extent. I can shut him out, too. I am self-contained. :P"
And this is the interesting thing, isn't it! The different responses we have. What you're describing is different from avoidance, it's a different response to the schizoid's.
"I am self-contained. :P" It seems an emanating and positive characteristic (**-* is also purely self-contained, and I can see it in ESTP and others here too.) By "positive", I am contrasting it with a negative self-containment, an avoidance of others and of deeper relationships. This is my perception, I've posted pictures of an isolated stone watchtower because my words fail me here. But it does intrigue me.
Are you able to explain it further?
"I resent having demands placed upon me... So much so, that will invariably shake them off, unless I place them on myself of my own accord. And I frequently assume large amounts of responsibility- but I will only enter contracts that I architect, or explicitly agree to."
I couldn't imagine it otherwise :p
"Perhaps I touched a bit upon what you are exploring, here. "
Indeed. Thankyou.
*I rarely afraid of anything, so have had a lot difficulty with it these past few days. I was choking, I was unable to write my essay. It was a friend's pertinent observations that I was overgeneralizing to snap me out of it and realise I'd allowed that unfamiliar feeling to overwhelm me instead of treating it the way I've learnt to treat any other (flowing with it, allowing it to simply inform me.)
Delete"As you know, I was brought up by a psychopath, but I don't have these unresolved hurts- or any emotional recall at all, for that matter. To extend the analogy of "father wound", it is as though I took a searing brand to mine, and cleansed it by fire. It is inaccessible, now, because it is covered up in scar tissue, which is numb. And I wouldn't want to. I may be working at an affective disadvantage, but I am highly functional. I like who I am, and appreciate what made me this way. "
DeleteThankyou for sharing this, I appreciate it.
It is fascinating to me too
"**_* will not understand. I cannot say that I do, either- but I am glad for you that you are able to start... touching this spot that is for you, obviously still very raw. The good thing is that you've managed somehow to keep the wound uninfected, likely because you are currently in the process of debriding it. That interests me."
My process is about breaking the attachment patterns I learnt in childhood and continued to use unawares in adulthood. My ex-husband is similar to my father: they are both intelligent, logical, domineering, loud, aggressive, engaging, charismatic, argumentative, manipulative. But manipulative in a mopey "you are responsible for my emotions" way.
**-* was not like that. He was highly manipulative but after a very different fashion: it was directed towards the goal of his little game and that was it. And he was quiet, zen, funny, charming, seemingly harmless, unobtrusive, very clever but not in an intellectual way. He pulled me into another world altogether, a quiet world in which I didn't need to argue my own existence. It was fun, adventurous, tender and peaceful.
So you see he did a brilliant job with his mask. All the good aspects of my father plus all the things I was desperately craving. I think he still doesn't understand how successful he was. You know, but he was too successful and it hurt too much and I woke up.
I moulded myself as a child to fit my father's environment. **-* was capitalising on those patterns (more or less described in the quotes above), he didn't create them. He did invest in his game with me but that's all it was: alleviation of boredom.
I was a closer match with my ex-husband which is why I lasted 12 years with him.
**-* was so similar yet distinctly different from Dad and that's what gave me the opportunity to see what was happening in my relationships.
I'd allowed myself to feel for the first time and it was good. Like a light for my path, suddenly my brain had a vision of a much better operating context. Now I'm growing into my own nature and breaking those old patterns that no longer serve a purpose. **-* won't find (hypothetically) the openings he had found previously.
It's likely I'd have found another less destructive path for change had **-* not been sitting right next to me, but this was surely an efficient and effective path.
And like you, now "I like who I am, and appreciate what made me this way."
Next time I'm caught rubbing some people in a bad way, I'll be sure to blame it all on the influence of an imaginary ghost :D
ReplyDeleteSo what exactly is the difference between this:
ReplyDeleteMan A walks into another man B, feels Man B push back, pushes Man B back - Man B falls under a truck and dies. Man A turns out to be blind, [and his guide dog had just been stolen off its harness];
and this:
"woman strangled this 11-year-old girl, you learn about her paranoid schizophrenia, which she didn’t know was schizophrenia — she thought [there] were people talking to her. And then if you dig back even further than that, you find out about the uncle who raped her"
So:
"…what is excusable and what is forgivable. And you do need to draw those lines"
So:
"You had schizophrenia? I’m sorry, you killed somebody…"
"You had no sight? I'm sorry, you killed somebody..."
American justice. World class. Wouldn't recognise 'those lines' if it fell over them or even if they strangled it. Hmm, wait a minute. Thinks: court hearing backlogs of years, paying billions to incarcerate anyone faintly non-beige en masse, private prisons and work gangs [Oh that's OK, it's very profitable business model], plea bargains based on fear and intimidation re prison time. Whew. Yep, 'those lines' sure are a credit to y'all.
And so Christian. But wait. Wasn't there something about 'casting the first stone' somewhere in some book....
XK
"I just hope they know we aren't evil, a lion isn't evil for being on top of the food chain."
ReplyDeleteLions kill in broad daylight. I don't believe in evil, just cowardice. It's a common denominator for everyone.
DeleteI do, but I think that someone's actions, not their traits or emotions, makes them an agent for "good" or "evil", at any given time. And everyone has been both, at various points in their lives.
DeleteUltimately, it is what we *do* - not what we think or feel- that counts.
@ A at 1.19pm:
Delete"Ultimately, it is what we *do* - not what we think or feel- that counts."
Not in law. Motive counts for a lot. Mens Rea. Intent. Culpability. Or it should. Regarding the 'blind/schizophrenic' example, the intent was self-defense in each case, it is suggested. The blind has a physical impairment to forming 'normative' perceptions of risk - the schizophrenic has a neurological impairment re same. A death resulted in each scenario; the point being, the blind would no doubt have 'walked' with an involuntary manslaughter verdict - the schizophrenic should have been sent for adequate treatment at a specialist facility - not incarcerated in a USA 'holding pen' for people its society doesn't want to pay mental health care costs of.
XK
Lions most often hunt at night, actually ;)
DeleteYou're quite right, XK. That was a self-centered comment. I was not considering intent, which does in fact play an important role.
DeleteThere's a guy who decapitated someone and ate strips of his flesh on a Greyhound a few years ago who got placed in a mental institution, because he was found to be criminally non-liable by reason of insanity. Apparently he thought God told him to do it. (He must have been praying to the same god !sis prays to, right Joanie? Lol)
I suppose if he was genuinely deceived it means he is morally less culpable. Still, I think someone like that ought to be locked up for good. This guy was recently approved for short unsupervised day passes! Some shrinks are just too damned gullible. :P
Lions are sensible. The females hunt in packs. 8-)
DeleteXK
@ SansDire at 11.12pm
DeleteOops, sorry, I sent my response too late. A [LOL] got in between. 8-)
@ A at 12.11am:
"Some shrinks are just too damned gullible."
LOL. [Reproving look]: now A, I'm sure if you ever became, shall we say, temporarily 'unhinged' - you might be grateful that a broad-minded shrink would let you out occasionally for a change of scenery. 8-)
Many of the people in prison are in fact seriously mentally ill. If they got treatment, not prison, if that works, if they take their meds, if therefore no more 'beheadings and eatings' on buses; well, I reckon they could go for the odd walk here and there.
XK
No, no. If you decapitate someone and feast on their face as though it were turkey jerky, you permanently forfeit your right to having some broad minded shrink grant you unsupervised leave from the funny farm.
DeleteOne would think. But it would seem that this guy's well on his way to unsupervised *living*.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/02/26/board-oks-plan-for-man-who-beheaded-bus-passenger-to-eventually-live-on-his-own_n_9321924.html
To hell with that. I'd lock him up and throw away the key. He can take a fucking stroll through the garden if he needs a breath of fresh air. On his meds. In a straitjacket. :P
A guy like that may not belong in prison, but he certainly doesn't belong on the streets.
@ A at 10.05pm:
Delete"If you decapitate someone and feast on their face as though it were turkey jerky, you permanently forfeit your right to having some broad minded shrink grant you unsupervised leave from the funny farm."
Why? If such action occurred during psychosis ie. legally defined insanity: why?
"To hell with that. I'd lock him up and throw away the key."
You state you are a Christian. Your statements above demonstrate no inclinations regarding forgiveness or the possibility of therapeutic improvement or recovery.
Are you being emotionally 'knee-jerk' reactive; or merely self-righteous in the standard conservative-religious 'stone the criminals' response? [I can't tell].
"A guy like that"
Like what? Is it that you don't trust the possibility of consistent treatment?
XK
You state you are a Christian.
DeleteEh. I frequently don’t, because I’m not a very good one.
Your statements above demonstrate no inclinations regarding forgiveness or the possibility of therapeutic improvement or recovery.
My father gouged someone’s eye out with a broken beer bottle. He never got caught, but went to jail for other stuff. I don’t hold it against him. I have forgiven him for various abusive acts. (Although not for this particular incident, because it was not directed at me, so there is nothing for me to forgive.) Do I think he deserved to be imprisoned for some of these acts? Yes. Did it have any therapeutic value whatsoever? Of course not. It reinforced his criminality, and permitted him to up his game.
He has “recovered.” Why? Because he is an old man. But even a couple a years ago, he punched another old guy for cutting him off in traffic, after being hospitalized for a transient cardiac arrhythmia. (My theory is that he felt vulnerable, which triggered a "relapse" of sorts, to prove to himself that he still had "power".) He retains certain elements of his formerly criminal lifestyle. He is and always has been antisocial.
As is the case for personality disorders, mental illnesses such as schizophrenia tend to persist throughout a person's life, regardless of treatment. And they need to be treated accordingly, to the best of our current knowledge.
"A guy like that"
Like what?
Decapitation is a particularly brutal act. Someone capable of this act by reason of his delusions is profoundly psychologically unstable. The perpetrator in question has already demonstrated a physical and moral capacity to violate some very fundamental boundaries. He suffers from severe psychosis and compulsions. And schizophrenia is not a mental illness that can be cured, just managed.
These facts allow me to deduce with a relatively high level of certitude that someone like that is likely to recidivate. And note: I said he belonged in a mental institution, not jail. I agree with you concerning for-profit prisons, and their lack of therapeutic value.
Is it that you don't trust the possibility of consistent treatment?
It is exactly that. And science backs me up. Schizophrenia is incurable.
Are you being emotionally 'knee-jerk' reactive; or merely self-righteous in the standard conservative-religious 'stone the criminals' response? [I can't tell].
Neither. But this question reveals your underlying assumptions about me, based upon a myopic caricature you have of people who identify as Christian. [I can tell]. ;)
This assessment, coupled with the way in which you failed to perceive how the alleged psychopath harassing the guy in the casino a few posts ago was inappropriate, therefore rendering him worthy of "elimination", allows me to intuit that you are either somewhat naïve about psychology, and/or lacking in perspicacity and good judgement concerning people and their true intentions [I can’t tell which one].
Take care that you do not allow the intellectual and personal pride you take in being fearless, amoral and "unemotional" blind you to your primal intuitions, nor cause you to be prematurely and arrogantly dismissive.
@ A at 6.57pm:
Delete"based upon a myopic caricature you have of people who identify as Christian. [I can tell]. ;)"
Nope. You can't. Way off base.
"allows me to intuit that you are either somewhat naïve about psychology"
LOL oh dear oh dear. Not even close.
"Take care that you do not allow the intellectual and personal pride you take"
Hmm. While it is interesting to get an understanding of how one's language 'presents', I think either you are too easily riled or you are unused to anyone being very blunt.
It's true that being expected on a site such as this to pander to sensitive egos leads me to be arrogantly dismissive.
"coupled with the way in which you failed to perceive how the alleged psychopath harassing the guy in the casino a few posts ago was inappropriate, therefore rendering him worthy of "elimination""
This sentence says more about your culturally-induced expectations and fears, and ability or willingness to step outside of them than anything about anyone else.
You were being played. The same way you play that boy. But not for the same reason as yours.
I was curious as to why you have such 'mainstream' [no insult intended] opinions regarding this topic. So, are you annoyed that assumptions were made about your stance, or annoyed that someone questioned your stance per se?
Taking care is second nature. Being perspicacious, always. My judgment regarding people is exemplary. But thank you for your concern.
Lastly: all the other content of your post [apart from the attempted wind-ups of the last three paragraphs] were very interesting, and I enjoyed reading it.
However, about your father: are you regretful he is psychopathic, or proud? I realise that may be a very personal question, apologies if so [and I don't expect you to respond if so, understandably].
XK
My husband is back!!! I had a problem with my husband 8 months ago,which lead to us apart. When he broke up with me,I was no longer myself,I felt so empty inside, Until a friend of mine told me about one spell caster that helped her in same problem too that she found on Youtube. i emailed the spell caster and I told him my problem and I did what he asked me. To cut the story short,Before I knew what was happening,not up to 48 hours,my husband gave me a call and he came back to me and told me he was sorry about what has happened, I’m so grateful to this spell caster and i will not stop publishing his name on the internet just for the good work he has done for me.If you need his help,you can email him at ( Unityspelltemple@gmail.com ) and he will also help you. Thanks to Dr Unity.
ReplyDeleteI've been slow on keeping up with the blog/comments section due to a recent seizure and severe pneumonia. I'm skipping volunteering at the homeless youth shelter today to get checked out at the hospital again because I've started coughing up blood.
ReplyDeleteI saw you tweeted a quote of my words again M.E., if I remember right. I think that was from a conversation between me and XK about sadism; I was making the distinction between psychopath sadism and neurotypical sadism. Psychopath sadism = instrumental, neurotypical sadism = may be instrumental, but often can be simply for the sake of being sadistic/feeling emotionally validated.
This blog post topic is interesting, I may add some of my own commentary on it later.
ESTP Sociopath
Instrumental towards your goal? You can make it sound as robotic and sterile as you want. It still is sadistic. Receiving pleasure from others pain. That is the defininition. When you accept that you can grow. If that is what you want.
DeleteI wouldn't call it pleasure at all really; from an outward perspective the behavior seems sadistic to a neurotypical, but it is just business to me. Any satisfaction is just from knowing doing X made Y happen and thus Z plan was fruitful.
DeleteI can't remember which blog post it was, but I recommend reading the conversation between me and XK on the subject, there might have been some good points made there.
ESTP Sociopath
Anon is right. Sadism, by definition, refers to deriving pleasure from someone's pain or discomfort. I can be rather sadistic, and it isn't always "instrumental". I enjoy making certain people squirm.
DeleteBut there are ways of channeling it- such as in the bedroom, with a consenting partner, for instance. :)
"The same characteristics that make the violent sociopath also make the conquering hero. It's all in how it's channeled."
or...
"The same characteristics which make the violent sociopath also make them an epic lay."
If you're into that sort of thing, that is. Communication is important if you want to avoid having your partner run away screaming. ;)
The world is a playground and we are all puppets playing a predetermined game. We can't be blamed if we happen to play it better than most people.
DeleteI hope you feel better soon, Espy.
Delete@ ESTP:
Delete"I can't remember which blog post it was"
...it was one of the first....
"there might have been some good points made there"
...whad'ya mean "might"?? LOL. There were *excellent* points made there 8-).
@ Anon at 12.11pm:
"Receiving pleasure from others pain. When you accept that you can grow."
Oh indeed. It's a hugely enjoyable tool [ie verbal sadism] to discomfit unpleasant people with - learning exactly how to slice a metaphorical jugular with the correct selection of vocabulary. Yep, accepting that capability leads to a very useful trajectory of personal growth indeed. LOL.
@ A at 1.03pm:
"But there are ways of channeling it" and "I enjoy making certain people squirm."
It's an excellent tool, for example, to remove opponents in the public arena, who are obstructive, malicious, protecting their 'turf', and intellectually mediocre.
It was suggested as an enjoyable and fruitful strategy against Robert Hare. He is weak, short, narcissistic, insecure, malicious and vindictive. Who more worthy? LOL
@ ESTP:
8-) So that was one of the 'good points' within that post.
Moving on...
If you are coughing up blood - you CANNOT smoke anything. Your air passages cannot tolerate the heat of the smoke and are getting damaged ie. inflamed and bleeding. Hash brownies for you for a while. Got that?
XK
@Espy: XK is right. You need to stop smoking until that clears up.
Deletehttps://www.leafly.com/news/lifestyle/recipe-how-to-make-basic-cannabutter
"...learning exactly how to slice a metaphorical jugular with the correct selection of vocabulary.
Fuck, yeah. There is nothing quite so delectable as the taste of fresh blood dripping from my knife.
Figuratively speaking, of course. ;)
At A at 3.38pm:
DeleteLOL. Of course. 8-)
XK
Jester Socios
ReplyDeleteBeepers Creepers
Kooky Krazies
Neuro Typos
Hyper Psychos
Prankster riddles
Buddha giggles
Happy Slappy
April Fool's Day
Wiggle wiggle.
"Wiggle wiggle."
DeleteWhat's that bit mean?
"Happy Slappy"
DeleteDon't presume.
XK
Anon@ 1:03 AM:
DeleteWiggle wiggle is a joke.
Most pranks have a hook, to hoodwink the mark. I saw a wiggling worm on the end of the hook, enticing the fish.
@ XK:
I don't presume nothing. Expect anything. That's life. :P
I was making a silly rhyme.
Pranks are often based on presumptions that shatter the mark's expectations.
Anyway, I wrote it to amuse. It's not meant to be taken seriously. ;)
Should read, "I presume nothing."
DeleteYour poems are clever and light-hearted. I like them :)
DeleteThank you, North. :))
DeleteThe 'wiggle wiggle' part was clear. I was actually asking which marks you were fishing for.
Delete"enticing the fish."
It did amuse.
"The 'wiggle wiggle' part was clear."
Delete""Wiggle wiggle."
What's that bit mean?"
Ok. ;)
I was actually asking which marks you were fishing for.
Anyone with a sense of humor. ;))
"enticing the fish."
We're all fish sooner or later. Fertilizer.
It did amuse.
Bulls eye! What more could anyone wish for?
A chuckle is all I hoped for. Sociopath World has made me laugh many times.
@ Anon at 9.47pm
Delete"What more could anyone wish for?"
More like that? 8-)
"Sociopath World has made me laugh many times."
Very true. I found/find UKan's sarcasm particularly astute and hilarious, invariably.
XK
I've read some of Ukan's posts and found some very amusing. But, who's to say who the real Ukan is?
Delete"What more could anyone wish for?"
More like that? 8-)"
Here you go. :)
Bubble Bubble
Slinky Blinky
Eyes Beguiling
Double Vision
Winky Smiley
on his mission.
Fiddle Fiddle.
Steeping Starlight
Burning Churning
Questing Hearts
Scribble Scribble.
@ Anon at 5.07pm:
DeleteMany thanks. 8-/ 8-) Oblique and sufficiently multi-layered. It is appreciated.
" But, who's to say who the real Ukan is?"
Usually 1Kan tell. He has always used language powerfully.
Does anyone psychopathic know who they really are.
XK
XK, Glad it tickled.
Delete"Does anyone psychopathic know who they really are."
Excellent point.
Does anyone?
So much of human existence appears focused on, entangled with, the quest for identity.
"So much of human existence appears focused on, entangled with, the quest for identity."
DeleteNot mine. An 'identity' just means stasis, and defending what is meaningless. Be nothing, judge nothing, learn everything of interest.
Existence should be fluid, flexible, but focused. IMNSHO.
BTB: What was meant by:
Steeping Starlight
*Burning Churning* - this part?
8-/
XK
Of course there is always a reason. So what? You just have to make sure you are on top of the pile.
ReplyDeletethanks for shairng
ReplyDeletePirate Kings | Banana Kong |solitaire | Drag Racer V3 | Potty Racers 2 | Happy Wheels Game | Vex 2 Game | Vex 2 | Play Vex 2 |
i like this. thanks a lot
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