I was recently at this pep talk directed partly at teenagers. The motivational speaker was talking about how everyone should always be theirselves, show up as themselves, make sure that no matter what else they do in life they be true to themselves and don't allow anything to come in the way of that. There was a noticeable discomfort from their teachers at this point. The teachers apparently didn't want the students to be themselves. In reaction, the speaker added a little caveat, "within the appropriate boundaries of the situation". And that makes sense, I guess, if you think about it. Being yourself at someone else's wedding might be a little bit more subdued than being yourself at your own, for instance.
But I do think it's safe to say that there is a lot of pressure on people to be something other than what they are. If society hasn't figured out a way yet to benefit pretty directly from what you have to offer, they're not so interested in you being yourself. Of course, we have scores of examples of geniuses, artistic and otherwise, whose true selves and true thoughts were rejected, whose social sphere pressured them to mightily conform, but they were such forces of nature that they never did. And we get to reap the benefit of that failure.
But we still love to preach the doctrine of conformity. When teenagers saying that they are going to be an artist and don't need college, or an entrepreneur and don't need college, etc., many will still attempt to interfere in that person's life in an attempt to dissuade them from pursuing their dreams/passion/drive.
Similarly, even from many people who seem a little more open-minded about sociopathic identifying individuals still an inherent, there is often a trailing "but" or "as long as they behave". Like the mixed messages given to children and young adults, the true message being preached is that society has no real desire to accommodate or adapt to you, you must accommodate or adapt to the majority or suffer consequences.
But I want you to think, you normal people, how toxic it is to your soul when someone, some situation, or some institution has denied you authentic self expression. How terrible is it to you to not be able to be yourself? Also, think about how pressure to conform unnaturally is likely what leads child sociopaths to develop in such grotesque ways.
Famous runner Eric Liddell (of Chariots of Fire fame) famously said "I believe God made me for a purpose, but he also made me fast! And when I run I feel his pleasure." Mormons have a similar concept, that every living thing is to fulfill the measure of its creation -- the lions are meant to predate as much as the lambs are to graze. How can it be that some people get to live an authentic and purposeful life filled with meaningful self expression, except sociopaths? Maybe for those proposing solutions to the so-called "sociopath problem," ask yourselves what you're really demanding of sociopaths and ask yourselves whether you would be fine with those terms if the roles were reversed.
But I do think it's safe to say that there is a lot of pressure on people to be something other than what they are. If society hasn't figured out a way yet to benefit pretty directly from what you have to offer, they're not so interested in you being yourself. Of course, we have scores of examples of geniuses, artistic and otherwise, whose true selves and true thoughts were rejected, whose social sphere pressured them to mightily conform, but they were such forces of nature that they never did. And we get to reap the benefit of that failure.
But we still love to preach the doctrine of conformity. When teenagers saying that they are going to be an artist and don't need college, or an entrepreneur and don't need college, etc., many will still attempt to interfere in that person's life in an attempt to dissuade them from pursuing their dreams/passion/drive.
Similarly, even from many people who seem a little more open-minded about sociopathic identifying individuals still an inherent, there is often a trailing "but" or "as long as they behave". Like the mixed messages given to children and young adults, the true message being preached is that society has no real desire to accommodate or adapt to you, you must accommodate or adapt to the majority or suffer consequences.
But I want you to think, you normal people, how toxic it is to your soul when someone, some situation, or some institution has denied you authentic self expression. How terrible is it to you to not be able to be yourself? Also, think about how pressure to conform unnaturally is likely what leads child sociopaths to develop in such grotesque ways.
Famous runner Eric Liddell (of Chariots of Fire fame) famously said "I believe God made me for a purpose, but he also made me fast! And when I run I feel his pleasure." Mormons have a similar concept, that every living thing is to fulfill the measure of its creation -- the lions are meant to predate as much as the lambs are to graze. How can it be that some people get to live an authentic and purposeful life filled with meaningful self expression, except sociopaths? Maybe for those proposing solutions to the so-called "sociopath problem," ask yourselves what you're really demanding of sociopaths and ask yourselves whether you would be fine with those terms if the roles were reversed.
FIRST!!!
ReplyDelete~Vegas
I love that movie, and I love that line.:)
Delete~Vegas
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThe real psychopaths, with their genie buddies, should pay close attention.
DeleteIn the name of God, The Merciful, The Compassionate.
"O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of God: for God forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and surrender to Him, before the Penalty comes on you: after that ye shall not be helped.
And follow the best that has been revealed to you from your Lord before there comes to you the punishment all of a sudden while you do not even perceive;
Lest any soul should say: Alas, my grief that I was unmindful of God, and I was indeed among the scoffers!
Or it should say: Had God guided me, I would certainly have been of those who guard (against evil);
Or should say, when it sees the doom: Oh, that I had but a second chance that I might be among the righteous!
(The reply will be) Aye! My communications came to you, but you rejected them, and you were proud and you were one of the unbelievers.
And on the day of resurrection you shall see those who lied against God; their faces shall be blackened. Is there not in hell an abode for the proud?"
Qur'an 39: 53-60
Hi ME,
ReplyDeleteNice post. Your teacher story reminded me of how every visit to my sons' school stuns me: how strong the culture of that organisation is, how completely the students conform to it. A bounded world, that we parents simply slot into when we visit, naturally moulding to its contours: sitting when told to, singing when the others do, listening to the teachers to spell out the next steps.
I immerse in the cultures of say 5 client organisations per year, and they all have their own flavours, but none so strong as a school.
Conformance is safety.
Most people implicitly calculate this and blend in to the environment. Safety is an efficiency for the organism; the safest way to protect our genepool. It does come at the cost of self expression.
This is why we admire shining lights such as Prince, who push the boundaries of social convention. Most people are wired for greater risk aversion than the likes of he. Most people sensibly travel the main road.
We all normalise to degrees because this is what it means to be a social organism. There's no choice.
Most choices we make each day weigh our immediate or long-term personal benefit with the risk of ostracisation from or damage to our social environment. I don't think this differs between sociopath and neurotypical.
What differs is degree to which one has to make the tradeoff. I've asked this question here previously and the answers have been that yes, there is always a tradeoff that is felt. Most people simply carry with them a faint regret or brooding melancholy.
Antisociality in whatever form creates the greater risk for sociopaths. It's those antisocial drives that make the tradeoff more extensive, not lack of empathy and not amorality. You have other mechanisms to deal with those deficits. An example is sensitivity to blame: in 90 minutes with **-* the other week, he mentioned that word probably 15 times. Deflection of blame, gauging level of blame might very well be a tool for maintaining social position and ensuring access to resources. This is, of course, just a hypothesis.
See, no one wants to be treated unfairly: not sociopaths and not neurotypicals. We ALL react to unfair treatment; that's as innate to us as breathing; critical to our survival.
Where self-expression comes with a cost to someone else, whatever that may be, there'll be a reaction. That's how it is. This is your unique challenge because unfair behaviour won't ever be tolerated. The other traits: grandiosity, impulsivity, risk tolerance, assertiveness, diminished fear response, shallowness of affect, amorality - neurotypicals can work with that stuff.
A's response - at least as she has described it - is to sublimate those antisocial impulses.
Having repressed my self for 35 years, I can sympathise to a degree. I don't envy you and recognise it must be a huge challenge. I also understand there's a degree to which you are held responsible for things you don't readily comprehend as well. In **-*'s words: "tear up that [social] contract!" But you can't. You're a social animal.
That's my understanding.
You know that I have been advocating here for over a year for self acceptance and purity of self expression. The very first stage of my own recovery involved self-acceptance, understanding I had as much right to exist as any other human, as any other mammal, creature, flower, blade of grass. And obviously that goes both ways.
When I say a more solid foundation for understanding the human condition will lead to better practices for of us, I imagine that might mean ways to mitigate the particular risks you face. What might that look like? I don't know because I don't have any access to what it is like to be a psychopath.
If you are interested, I recommend Thomas Nagle's What it is like to be a bat?
DeleteOur own experience provides the basic material for our imagination, whose range is therefore limited. It will not help to try to imagine that one has webbing on one's arms, which enables one to fly around at dusk and dawn catching insects in one's mouth; that one has very poor vision, and perceives the surrounding world by a system of reflected high-frequency sound signals; and that one spends the day hanging upside down by one's feet in an attic. In so far as I can imagine this (which is not very far), it tells me only what it would be like for me to behave as a bat behaves. But that is not the question. I want to know what it is like for a bat to be a bat. Yet if I try to imagine this, I am restricted to the resources of my own mind, and those resources are inadequate to the task. I cannot perform it either by imagining additions to my present experience, or by imagining segments gradually subtracted from it, or by imagining some combination of additions, subtractions, and modifications.
…
(The problem is not confined to exotic cases, however, for it exists between one person and another. The subjective character of the experience of a person deaf and blind from birth is not accessible to me, for example, nor presumably is mine to him. This does not prevent us each from believing that the other's experience has such a subjective character.)
Neurotypicals and sociopaths / pyschopaths have sufficiently different experiences as to make the others' inaccessible in many ways to our imagination. That's why I think it's productive to find the common ground.
Considering the amazing complexity of the human organism, we are far more similar than different, yet our qualitative experience diverges in some significant aspects. But we won't find better ways of interacting with each other unless we are willing to explore the mindset of the other.
Unless you really want to look at the landscape, you can't navigate optimally. It's just jumping in the same sort of boat as the neurotypicals who say "sociopaths are evil".
Deletehttps://mobile.twitter.com/spinningnorth/status/727085844167688192
"You have to regard yourself as a cloud. In the flesh, because you see clouds don't make mistakes.
Have you ever seen a cloud that is misshapen-ed? Did you ever see a badly designed wave? No. They always do the right thing. But if you were to treat yourself, for a while, as a cloud, or wave. And realize that you cant make a mistake, whatever you do. Because even if you do something that may seem totally disastrous, It will come out of the wash, somehow or another. Though this capacity, you will develop a kind of self confidence. And through confidence you will be able to trust your own tuition. But this is the middle way of knowing it has nothing to do with your decision to do this or not. Whether you decide you cant make a mistake, or whether you don't decide it, it's true anyway that you are like cloud or water. Through that realization and not over compensating in the other direction, you will come to a point, where you become on good terms with your own being. And to be able to trust your own brain."
ME"
Delete"Maybe for those proposing solutions to the so-called "sociopath problem," ask yourselves what you're really demanding of sociopaths and ask yourselves whether you would be fine with those terms if the roles were reversed."
I'm interested in your elaborating on this point. What is this "sociopath problem" in your words?
What do you perceive people demanding of you?
My take on this, as I've said since I came here, is that I'm for freedom and responsibility. We are all free to act as we choose, but being social animals, we implicitly accept the social contract and can thus be expected to take responsibility for our social actions. I've discussed the implications of this above.
As to defining the "sociopath problem", the only "problem" from my perspective is making adequate consideration for the nature of psychopaths in our conceptions of humanity. What does it mean for our ideas about morality that a significant proportion of the population experiences amoral orientations? What does it mean that most of us assume general affinity with other humans while some of us experience this less strongly? What are the common traits across these populations? What does this tell us about the biological bases of behaviour in all human populations? What does it tell us about each population on its own?
Genuinely considering these questions can be very powerful. Science is already make steps to looking at the evolutionary history of morality - these questions are moving from the realm of religion and philosophy and into science. Philosophy becomes a synthesiser.
This is what I wrote last month to my philosophy course coordinator:
"As to my broader philosophical objectives, I have attempted to solve a very particular problem: making space for neurodiversity (especially psychopathy) in our conception of the human condition. The psychopathic paradigm of operation offers a mirror in which we see our assumptions about our own nature in stark relief. "
It's tremendously exciting.
The only thing I ask is questions in exploration.
But I also challenge psychopathic assumptions about the neurotypical condition, although this is seemingly fruitless. As VN and XK have said (confirmed by Heironymous Bot's silence) is that there's no interest in these questions, nothing to be gained in answering them.
That's fine; occasionally, there will be people happy to chat about this stuff. It's easier in person. **-* had interesting things to say, as did Knife Guy last year.
It might be easier to say that North hates sociopaths but it's simply not true.
The next question, of course, is what do you expect from neurotypicals?
DeleteMy personal perspective is that your existence is equally as valid as neurotypical existence. But you do have the unique challenge of being a social organism with antisocial impulses.
The evidence from the comments section of this blog is that there's a lack of comprehension of the scale of the damage neurotypicals incur at sociopathic treatment. "Hurt feelings" doesn't remotely cover it.
We're talking creation of a false information economy and coercion of irreplaceable investments - material, sexual, time - that otherwise wouldn't have been made. In other words, the deepest unfairness with often limited social recourse. This coupled with the shattering realisation that the entire way you have conceived of humanity is WRONG in a very dangerous way. It's extremely resource intensive to rebuild from such a state.
The evidence of the scale of this disruption is all over the internet. And you may have experienced evidence in your own lives.
You may not have intended damage on this scale and seemingly find it difficult to appreciate it.
But if you don't make efforts to accommodate the reality of the neurotypical experience in response to sociopathic "treatment", you aren't making sufficient attempts to understand the society you wish to accept you.
Do you think the onus is solely on neurotypicals to bridge the gap?
This is NOT an exercise in blame. I'm simply suggesting you at least quantify the cost; a valuable factor in your strategy design. Without it, you are fighting against a tide of neurotypicals who will also take the easy route and just point the finger at the evil socios.
Those abuse recovery websites can provide a feel for what it is you're dealing with. Consider it from an investment perspective, look at the bottom line for yourselves and from the neurotypical perspective. Think about how much investment goes into recovery.
Why would society accept behaviour that incurs that sort of cost?
Now think which areas are more likely to receive research funding and government investment.
I said it previously and will say it again: your case is *significantly* different to homosexuals and people on the autism spectrum. Sociopathic traits are one thing; unfair behaviour quite another.
North,
DeletePlease don't assume anything from my silence, other than that I've been busy and haven't had much time to spend on this site. My undergraduate background is in Philosophy, so your thesis actually piques my interest. Your question the other day seemed poorly phrased, or perhaps I hadn't read the discussion closely enough to understand the context of the question. As stated above, regarding my own biases, I'm sure I have them. I feel like mostly they stem from frustration in what I view as inefficient behavior in other people. People get so caught up in relationships or religion or politics, stuff that seems so trivial to me.
I'm not as active in these threads as I used to be, but if you ever want to contact me directly, you can do so @gmail.com.
Thankyou Heironymous Bot. I'm glad I misread that datapoint ;) and am keen to hear more of your views.
DeleteGuilt, blame, fault. Why is this so integral to sociopaths? It may be part of arrested development. I experienced the same talks about guilt, blame, fault. Over and over. From someone who also talked about how mature they were. I often imagined them as a child who thought they were very mature because they were a year or two older than another child. In reality they were still a child.
ReplyDeleteNeurotypicals are uber-afraid of rejection - we tend to have strong emotional reactions to any threat of exclusion. Guilt and remorse are also super-strong motivators for us to correct any ills.
DeleteIf sociopaths don't have such powerful drivers helping them maintain social connections, how else might they ensure social survival?
Keep in mind that we need social groups to survive?
I reckon blame sensitivity / shifting and fault finding might be very sensitive post-facto mechanisms that approximate neurotypical guilt, although with different effects. The result is the same: retained social connection.
Similarly with power drives. Do you even notice how easily we flow into the emotional current within a social group? Imagine if you didn't feel that? I tried an exercise for a week: reading for 30 mins every day, just concentrating on the words and not the meanings. The next week, in a meeting, I felt this strange disconnection, as though I were outside that river but watching exactly how the currents pulled the participants and how they swam or navigated with it. I imagined I couldn't get back into that river and thought about mimicking people... that's as close as I can imagine.
In this case, where you couldn't get into the river: doesn't it make sense that you should take the advantage by simply stepping into the dominant position at the table? Or at least insofar as you can?
I definitely don't know how these things are experience by sociopaths, but my guess is that they are biologically incentivised for those sorts of behaviours for reasons - these reasons I'm proposing seem to fit, but they need testing.
The bottom line is that their patterns work. They are successful organisms just as we are and can shed some sparkling light on the assumptions we make about ourselves.
North i do understand what you are saying and i agree. I also think sociopaths like everyone else adhere to the philosophy of do what works. But just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. There are so many behaviors that just don't work long-term for Sociopaths-not to mention the negative consequences for everyone surrounding them. Should we just go along because it "works? "
DeleteIn other words if sociopaths have no motivation to learn or evolve why should they? I believe they can. I think it is about utilizing other parts of their brain that have possibly never been pushed to function in a higher way.
DeleteI was thinking of "works" as meaning "reaching adulthood and maintaining life." Every living adult organism is successful in this sense :D
DeleteThat's a bit abstruse, I suppose.
"In other words if sociopaths have no motivation to learn or evolve why should they? I believe they can. I think it is about utilizing other parts of their brain that have possibly never been pushed to function in a higher way."
I often wonder how neuroplasticity might benefit sociopaths. M.E. wrote some very interesting posts about her experience of neurofeedback - worth checking out.
But really north I think it may be as simple as being pushed to use other parts of one's mind. Imagine if you had never used certain regions? And imagine how difficult it is to wrap your brain around the concept of sociopaths. I had horrible headaches for quite a while trying to "Adjust" and it still is mind bending. If people become more aware will sociopaths be forced to evoke into their higher brain or will they devolve further? And since they seem to function as a collective consciousness to themselves will they all respond the same? I wonder.
DeleteNorth the similarities of sociopaths is just too fascinating to me. Its uncanny really and I can't believe there isn't more studies done considering the phenomenon. I know you are pushing more towards awareness and I think that is so important. I am also interested in how such a large section of the population can be so similar in development and in behavior. Even in language. So many things are literally verbatim. Would we be like this if we used different parts of our brains? How is it that these things are so innate? And yet have never occurred to me? What is the push to initiate the *spark*?
DeleteShould make you think that all sociopathy originates from the same source. Sociopathic tricks and "games" are not just identical among socios today but throughout history.
DeleteAnd the seasoned, certified psychos know full well why & how people become sociopathic. They feel content thinking they're on top of the chain but they're top stupid to realize they too are being played and will end up paying for it eventually.
DeleteThere are so many theories-many that fit. But in reality sociopaths seem to already be paying. They seem to be a slave to their own mind. I believe everyone can overcome those chains.
DeleteWhat other theory explains the entire history of psychopathic behavior? It has no evolutionary benefit or explanation (evolution should actually eradicate it). Even if there was an evolutionary benefit for viruses - I mean psychopaths - to exist, we would see a diversity in expression. Psychopathy historically and contemporarily manifests in exactly the same way. The context keeps changing yet the phenomenon itself remains identical.
DeleteLook at the world and history from an outsider's perspective. Don't be stuck in your view of the world. It is a very narrow time frame.
Anon 10:10
DeleteYes, it was an overwhelmingly physical thing in my brain, too. I felt all the walls within the house of my mind were torn down to make space for that experience; I visualised this. I experienced symptoms that I know recognise as indicators my brain is changing (neuroplasticity): amplified but non-specific emotion, non-focussed thoughts (a highly active kinda dream-like state), physical fatigue, crying. A lot of that. And that was just the accommodation piece of work! Then came the sense-making piece :)
Emotion is a massive aid to change; this is why experiences requiring some type of change (moving house, learning to work with a new team, ending a relationship) are emotionally charged. It's also why a lot of people learn best by experience - it's more engaging of the physical organism, possibly more emotive.
Emotion facilitates neuroplasticity. My psychologist used EMDR with me and it was very effective when coupled with belief change. This is where I first learnt the sensations and utility of neuroplasticity. From that point, I deliberately harnessed every emotional experience I had - even throwing myself into situations that would be emotive so I had the opportunity to create and reinforce new patterns of behaviour - new neural pathways.
It's been a very successful strategy for me and that's why I'm able to embrace my emotions now: both for the data they provide and for opportunities they give me to create more of the life I want for myself.
I love all your questions! That you have them, I mean :) not that I can answer them. I could give you my perspective but something indicates to me that your mind will find the best answers for you.
DeleteI did want to talk about the spark: the scale of change we face is a pretty big deal, so motivation (necessity, I would suggest) is more important than the mechanisms I wrote about. Change was required in my case: I was blindsided and made investments I might not otherwise have made. This was shocking to my system! How on earth did that happen? As organisms, we are wildly incentivised to learn from such experiences so that we expend our resources in more profitable ways. To protect and nourish our genepool.
Honestly, I could write all day but I'm genuinely sure you will find your own answers. My system of explanations is physicalist in nature. Jonaid's is religious. I wonder what yours will look like :) it will be something beautiful, deeply reflective of who you are!
North thank you for your response and your kind words. I read it and burst into tears. I swing from budding scientist to hurt little heap at the drip of a hat. Today I have been remembering some of the really cruel things they said to me. Its hard when you realize not only did they not love you they really didn't even like you. They were so angry that they had to act kind to me for so long I guess. I try so hard to not hate them. That's just not who I am. Its just a nightmare sometimes to know they were plotting and planning the whole time. How could I have ever imagined .
DeleteThat's drop of a hat. ;-)
DeleteAnon @ 6:47-
DeleteHow did you figure out, you were with a sociopath?
~Vegas
{{{Anon}}}
DeleteIt's ok to feel that nightmare, OK to feel angry and horrified. Those are good reactions, an assertion of your self.
Don't worry that you might hate them - it sounds as though you won't because it's not who you are to hate. You can trust yourself in that and make space for those very important messages from yourself. Those strong emotions are there for powerful, life-sustaining reasons.
That's how it worked for me, for what it's worth.
:)
Thank you north. I am in a very waif like state. Very Ophelia. I try to pull myself out of it but there is a very real pull. Its very hard to not get carried away. But I realize I've been here before. I've been Ophelia before and I didn't drown. I try to keep that in mind.
DeleteI created a vision for my life as vast and rich. It was like giving my subconscious an instruction. It is bringing me there slowly, slowly, but faster than what my conscious mind can keep up with.
DeleteYou will get there. All of this feeling and Ophelia-ness is change :)
And more than change, it is adaptation.
DeleteYou can't have your cake and eat it too. I always thought that was a stupid saying. I understand it better now. It seems very appropriate for sociopaths although I would change it to you can't eat your whole cake. Sociopaths want the party and the friends but they don't want to share their cake. That's part of the social contract that sociopaths adhere to. You can eat the whole cake but you will have to get a new set of friends.
ReplyDeleteAnd with the trailing "but" ;-) comes the reality of what sociopaths actively do. They would rather, it seems, just get a whole new set of friends than share their cake.
DeleteI never understood it; not saying I didn't try it myself ;)
DeleteWhat you are saying makes sense. The bottom line is important; resources before friends to whom they're not deeply connecting. I can imagine that too.
"but" sociopaths must understand you can't fault the partygoers for being pissed. I think this may be what m.e is getting At-sociopaths want the party and friends but don't feel they should have to fulfill their end of the social contract because
DeleteIt conflicts with their nature. Furthermore they want nons to agree that we are not entitled to any cake because it goes against their nature to share. The fact that we won't agree is the real problem they Have-i believe.
Delete"Furthermore they want nons to agree that we are not entitled to any cake because it goes against their nature to share. "
DeleteIndeed! :)
"You can eat the whole cake but you will have to get a new set of friends."
DeleteThis is actually kind of hilarious to me. When I was younger, it seemed like every few years I would exhaust a set of friends and then have to find new ones, who would also eventually get tired of me. Although to be honest, it was probably also my fault, in that I probably got tired of faking for them. Now that I'm settled down, friends seem less important.
@Hieronymous Bot - that really couldn't be more true. Every few years (sometimes months) that cycle of friends finally realizes something is "off" about me. And you're right - it's likely because I let the mask slip in some way.
DeleteNorth I know I have tried it. Sociopaths are strange in that they really don't know the value of maneuvering. They expend so much energy to get something when many times there are such easier ways. You don't have to kill the whole party to have another one.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your point, M.E. You seem to be suggesting that sociopaths should be tollerated whatever their behavior. Let me start from the beginning.
ReplyDelete-VN
You claim that sociopaths are being oppressed. I for fact lack any sense of identity. I am whoever and however I have to be, based on my wants and the circumstances. I adapt like a chameleon in a way that favors me. I have never been told not to be this way, and no one has ever tried to stop me. Simply, cause I do it well.
There is a difference between oppression and self defense. It is opression if someone discriminates against you just for who you are. But in the case of the sociopath, who is dangerous to other humans it is self defense for someone to discriminnate against them for their actions. I would say for the name too since itself it indicates something threatful, but I know that depending on the sociopath not everyone is vulnerable to their abuse.
Like North said no one wants to be treated unfairly. Nor the disordered neither the non disordered. My problem here is that I don't believe sociopaths are being opressed.
What is it that you expect from society?
Lets say sociopaths are being oppressed.
What would you do that you cannot do now?
Who would you be that you cannot be now?
Is your goal for people to accept sociopaths and then make them feel bad for them so you can take advantage of that?
But how in the first place would a sociopaths fate fall into the hands of non disordered people? In order for him to need their pitty?
I think it is a matter of skill. Or as we usually say a matter of high functioning sociopaths or low functioning sociopaths. I plainly believe low functioning sociopaths deserve their fate.
It is a characteristic of low functioning sociopaths to be caught and to be obvious. Because they are incapable. It is not oppression for society to take action against them. Anti social or not everyone is responsible for themselves and for making their own way through their world. Low functioning sociopaths don't deserve any special treatment for having been merely stupid.
Well -VN was supposed to be in the ending but anyway
Delete-VN
Hi VN-
DeleteIt's good to see you post.:)
~Vegas
Thank you Vegas.:)
Delete-VN
VN-
DeleteYou are welcome.:)
Whenever you post, a feeling of "excellence" comes through.:)
Excellence is a rarity these days, and I have a high appreciation for people, that do things with excellence.:)
~Vegas
Thank you Vegas. I feel genuinely flattered.:)
Delete-VN
@ VN:
Delete"My problem here is that I don't believe sociopaths are being oppressed....I plainly believe low functioning sociopaths deserve their fate....It is not oppression for society to take action against them. Anti social or not everyone is responsible for themselves and for making their own way through their world."
A very utiliterian Libertarian viewpoint. Quite Darwinian. Something Fallon might write himself, perhaps. Except he's scientific enough not to turn a blind eye to some somewhat uncomfortable facts.
A genotype with certain additive traits that predisposes one to a particular developmental trajectory, if subjected to long-term abuse from early childhood, and with average intelligence or slightly below - quite probably an impulsive, aggressive, criminally inclined individual will result, especially if from a lower socio-economic group. Or even a heartless, self-interested “I don't care about anyone less fortunate than myself” type of individual.
After the age of two years, that child's neurons will automatically self-prune, and then, due to epistasis, probably develop in a certain and somewhat unfortunate manner for society. By the time that individual is in their mid teens, often the dye is cast.
"Low functioning sociopaths don't deserve any special treatment for having been merely stupid."
By adulthood, neither are they able to act 'responsibly', nor is that, technically, their 'fault'. Unless, from a scientific perspective, the egg and the sperm prior to conception had a little conversation with God, and said “please make us into a cold, heartless aggressive and violently anti-social abusive monster. And please give us crappy parents as a bonus to seal the deal”.
By now many will start muttering about 'free will'. A nice idea; the Victorians loved it. Two hundred years later, however, as neuroscience is developing at a rapid rate, the concept of making any decision outside of one's neuro-architectural capacities by so-called 'free will' is also disappearing at the same fast pace, out the door.
So, ignoring the fact that people have limited choice but to behave in a manner their neurology dictates - is discrimination.
Demonising the group so taxpayers don't have to pay big bucks to identify and help those teenagers, or even intervene in abusive families, is discrimination of one group [a damaged minority] by another group [the righteous majority]. If one looks carefully at the backgrounds of many 'monsters' , it's the same old story. Odd children, nasty and neglectful parents.
It is discrimination to be denied clinical help, therapeutically as an adult, but instead be told 'nope, can't help you, your type are untreatable'.
It is even discrimination to not be placed in maximum security facilities in a humane fashion and provided with treatment, if convicted of say, horrific crimes.
If it were not for an arbitary twist of fate that gave you your IQ, lower levels of impulsivity and higher levels of conscientiousness, and your sex chromosomes being XX rather than XY – you could well be one of those lower functioning people who “is responsible for themselves and for making their own way through their world” right into a federal maximum security prison, and treated as sub-human therein.
It is more objective to say 'There but for the grace of Fate, go I'. It is a sufficiently salutary and humbling thought to allow one to gain sympathy and understanding for those not as fortunate as oneself.
Last point. If psychopaths were treated effectively, early in life: there would be fewer victims.
XK
You made your points XK. Interesting points. Bravo.
DeleteLets begin with my belief that no one has free will anyway. So if, as according to you, that did take the responsibility off them. Then no one is responsible for anything at all and then no one deserves punishment(to be severed from society: prison, mental institution). This means every action of society taken “against” any individual for whatever reason is discrimination. Nice point.
I see you have made some interesting assumptions concerning what I meant. Especially when I said “low functioning sociopaths don't deserve special treatment”.
Firstly, I wrote that discrimination against their actions is self defense, not against the mere fact that they are sociopaths (” It is opression if someone discriminates against you just for who you are.”). Here I was mostly referring to sociopaths who are discovered they are sociopaths by their actions, I didn’t take it to the extent of crimes but I will so I can cover you on that too. So by saying they dont deserve special treatment for having been merely stupid, I mean that they dont deserve to have their behaviour accepted and let pass with no consequences and objections. Like “Oh John is verbally abusing me, I’ll sit and take it because he is a poor sociopath who can’t control himself. I will take abuse from all the sociopaths in the world so they get a chance to be themselves.”.
As for crimes. Yes when a sociopath commits a crime there ought to be taken action “against him”( -> Action against low functioning sociopaths means action against anti social behaviour which means clinical help.) :D I never mentioned in my post that they should be denied clinical help. Try not putting words in my mouth.
My whole point is that if someone isnt capable enough(yes yes was born that way, don’t start that,it doesn’t change the fact), and their fate ends up in the hands of non disordered people, then the game is over. No more doing whatever he wants because people are not going to tollerate it ( tolleration:“Oh John is being verbally abusing me, I’ll sit and take it because he is a poor sociopath who can’t control himself.”). The same goes for sociopaths who commit crimes, the action taken there are all the things you said I was against.
I continue to believe sociopaths are not being oppressed. The whole world is out there trying to understand sociopaths.
-VN
Also it is safe while talking about discrimination to not discriminate in the meantime, for example against women. :D
Delete-VN
I like your points about free will, VN.
DeleteWhat actually happens is of more interest than the concepts of free will or of determinism.
We experience and attribute agency. We *do* hold each other responsible for actions. And we are acutely aware of how fairly or otherwise we are being treated. We seek efficiency. Hello justice systems.
Most people are incentivised in treating others fairly and for collaborating. This is why we remain a social species. It feels good.
As we learn more about factors affecting behaviour, we’ve seen provisions for diminished responsibility emerge. Because that’s fair. And a system that is fair to all is more likely to be fair to us as individuals. And neurotypicals are incentivised to fairness.
VN you are also correct that people all over the world are trying to understand sociopaths. It’s still somewhat mythical-monsterish. But there are very important questions to be asked about what justice means in the species where some of us are amoral and so differently equipped.
These are not easy questions by any means. This is why the shift away from received concepts of free will, determinism, and morality is so important: they are simply inadequate for understanding life as we actually experience it because primacy is given to the concept and not the data. So we must start with a new epistemology - a scientific epistemology - that gives primacy to the data of our experience and creates conceptual understandings that actually account for that data.
We have the technology to do this. Questions of morality can be formulated into falsifiable hypotheses based on our developing expertise in neurobiology, psychology, evolutionary biology, anthropology and so on. We will see a better account of human sociality emerge but there are barriers to remove first; most notably our attachment to received models of understanding the human condition.
If we want greater equity in social support systems, justice systems, the psychiatric and psychological professions, it starts with data.
It starts with your experience.
VN-
DeleteExcellent posts.:)
~Vegas
@ VN again:
DeletePS. I agree, it is good to see you post again. I trust rational disagreement and/or misunderstanding do not affect that.
XK
@ VN yet again:
DeleteHmm. Very strange. I posted in a long reply to your second comment. It's disappeared. Can't do another one, no point. Hence the odd PS above.
XK
indeed
DeleteNorth, the things you said were completely rational. You phrased it very well. I agree that this is the way society can go a step further. Really, things are always what they are, they dont change according to how we perceive them. Personally a perception is never wrong. We are all looking at the same thing want it or not. Its the same photograph, we just have different lenses. The point is to choose the most practical one and the one that fits reality most accurately. To take reality, data, and shape perceptions. Not fish out the nicest sounding story from our head and alter reality for the sake of it. It is more practical to say things as they are, than to make a hundred of stories up as to why they are something else, and to make sure that doesnt clash with our natural observations, or that people will not trust natural observation and choose to live in their fantasy world. I agree. You have an interesting way of presenting your ideas. They are not something someone can read quickly. You carefully put meaning into all of your sentences.
Delete-VN
@ VN:
DeleteYour style of writing fascinates. There are many assumptions of shared meaning within it, that if one doesn't have that, it's like grasping at smoke.
I recall your lyrical [NOT sarcasm] description of how you play with your acquaintances [here about a month ago].
Questions:
Who chooses and why them?
Whose reality? Who gets to say which reality is accurate? The majority? What if they're manipulated? Misguided? Ignorant?
"To take reality, data, and shape perceptions"
What if data is 'massaged', or not accurate? For perception management? Are you assuming data is always valid, or is that just my assumption?
I see what you mean. You create those 'gaps'. And then others carry on wanting you to fill them? Intriguing. Or incorrect?
And you do this in real life? Appreciative 8-). It is quite 'moreish'.
Other questions:
What if there are many possible 'practical' perceptions, depending on which variables have more weight?
"Not fish out the nicest sounding story from our head and alter reality for the sake of it."
What do you mean by this one? This could read as 'don't rock the boat with new ideas', for example. Or 'don't listen to the crazies'. Or something else?
What is a 'natural' observation?
Why should it be trusted? What about cognitive biases and prejudices affecting one's observations?
Some of your sentences are ambiguous; so it is difficult to agree or disagree without having to make too many assumptions. [Hence why in my first response, I assumed nothing of shared meaning eg. the free will thing.]
XK
@ M E: if this now *third" comment to VM is swallowed, that's not a coincidence. Right?
Wow so many questions. Exciting. :)
DeleteMy answer is on the way.
-VN
My things are dissapearing as I preview them too so it is a coincidence XK. We are not plotting against you.
Delete-VN
You like questioning, don’t you? We all do to an extent. We stop once we have formed some kind of opinion. It does not surprise me that you find everything so questionable. In fact, I don’t find you have opinions of your own. Maybe you do, but if you do, you make sure to not speak of them. I believe it natural meaning predictable that you might have more interest in questioning others than in presenting ideas of your own. Is it fear someone will question you back? Or are your opinions so precious that you prefer to keep them to yourself? Do they simply not exist?
DeleteEverything is questionable. If you walk into a room and you’ve already decided everyone is wrong, and everything is to be questioned, everything will be wrong and questioned.
There are so many roads one can take. In order to form an opinion, you have to take one. I myself do not like that idea. I take two and three. I’ve tried to take all of them in the past. But it doesn’t work that way. As I said not all of them reflect reality. And not all of them are practical. People usually choose the path that benefits them, and that is natural (predictable). A person with a strong will to power will present “his” in such a way that he will seem like a God and everyone will follow.
(Who chooses and why them? Whose reality? Who gets to say which reality is accurate? The majority? What if they're manipulated? Misguided? Ignorant?)In order to choose, you have to have data. At least it has been proven that perceptions based on data have helped society invent itself. These perceptions are science. They have what we call proof. They have lead us to realize we aren’t the center of the universe, and based on this idea we have gone forward. So who chooses? For questions as universal as these, its scientists. Physicists, Mathematicians etc. They see how things work. They spend their whole life doing it and provide us with evidence and with books, as to how they came to these conclusions. If you want to question them you can either become a physicist yourself, or you can go live on the mountains, or you can join a cult. Or you can trust only your own data and thus limit yourself to some extent, since you might not get the chance to view someone’s brain from up close, or to see the earth from outer space, or to experiment in chemistry. But this is only with universal questions like that. There are questions in which there is no authority but ourselves.
Even though philosophy has been beaten by science, it still has questions we can think about. And even if some have already been answered or are being answered by science, it is good exercise for the brain to think about them if anyone is interested. But if someone like I said is attempting to doubt science, in order to do it right there is a lot involved.
-VN(there is more its what you get for asking so much)
And then comes your questioning mind. What if they are the ones with a strong will to power that you mentioned? Did I not hint the possibility they might be manipulating others? Misguiding them? Oh no! Well like I said, you can go and spend your life yourself trying to see if they are telling the truth. It sounds like a nice idea. Or you can believe everything. Or you can choose parts. Or you can choose to believe nothing and spend life transforming yourself whenever it suits you. It depends on how much you care. Do you really care about finding answers to these questions or do you just want to have fun? If you just want to have fun excuse others if they don’t always take the time to explain things to you. I do it but others might find to be a total waste of time. Why do I not find it a waste of time? Because this is anyway something I do every day. I build castles in other people’s heads. And I make sure there is no window left except for their eyes which are turned to my face. That doesn’t say anything at all as to whether I’m saying the truth about my opinions or not. But rather that I practice being convincing and appealing. When I talk flowers must bloom, and people must open themselves up for me. I should sound inspirational. Words have so much power. You can spill color out of your mouth and make people believe this color runs in your veins. People are thirsty for color, they live for color. I predict plenty of questions on this one. The reason as to why I don’t take the time answering everything is because I have a life and things to do so excuse me for that.
DeleteNot only scientists deal with questions, everyone deals with questions, and shape perceptions of their own. I referred to the ways someone can do that. It’s human. Questions exist. They can be tools, food for thought, fun, interesting, useful, boring, unimportant, whatever they exist and everyone answers them their own way.
(Some of your sentences are ambiguous; so it is difficult to agree or disagree without having to make too many assumptions. [Hence why in my first response, I assumed nothing of shared meaning eg. the free will thing.)
Keep in mind that I was answering to North and not to you, who seemed to share opinions, so I didn’t think it necessary to write an introduction to my perspective.
Also if you don’t have opinions of your own it is natural (predictable) for you to not understand this process, or to pretend you don’t. (The process I talked about in the beginning.)
-VN (yes there is more you'll think about making less questions next time <3 )
(“What if there are many possible 'practical' perceptions, depending on which variables have more weight?
Delete"Not fish out the nicest sounding story from our head and alter reality for the sake of it." What do you mean by this one? This could read as 'don't rock the boat with new ideas', for example. Or 'don't listen to the crazies'. Or something else?)
I am not sure I understood this one. If you mean which one is the practical one. The most practical one is the one that needs less calculations. And the one that will easier lead to another and improve our way of life and lead to more useful inventions. I’ll take a silly super small example. You have this piece of land. And you want to calculate how many miles it takes in order to drive through it to the other side, so you can make a road. You can do it in circles, you can zig zag or you can go straight. Which one will you choose? The shortest. Why? Because it’s simpler, and you can build a road and cars can ride through it without zig zagging. It is less complex and still true, you can get to the other side while driving straight. This way the road will be built easier and less calculations are needed. Another example: if people believed the earth is flat, they would still continue their calculations and get to conclusions through them, but they would spend double time trying to make laws to explain why some things that clash with that idea happen. Another one: Say you could choose to see the world upside down it’s still the world. But you have to spend the time to explain to yourself why when attempting to sit down you have to do it upside down. Why not just take the shortest rode. And no shortest doesn’t mean not thought through, it means the one that needs less calculations so we can easily go to the next question and make useful conclusions.
(What is a 'natural' observation?
Why should it be trusted? What about cognitive biases and prejudices affecting one's observations?)
I think I’ve answered this already but if I haven’t the short way to say it is find a way to deal with it.
VN(yes, this is the end)
You can either be the child who builds a sand castle. Or the child who will kick the sand castle down. Or the child who will both build it and then kick it down. You have proven to be the second case, and I the last. Guess who has more fun and which one lasts.
Delete-VN
Thankyou for your comment, VN. My challenge is in making my ideas concrete and relatable: I'm enjoying your posts for multiple reasons; one of which is that you do this exceptionally well.
Delete"Physicists, Mathematicians etc. They see how things work. They spend their whole life doing it and provide us with evidence and with books, as to how they came to these conclusions."
DeleteI got a little excited reading this. Last week a colleague shared his sheer joy that a human might spend his whole life creating an understanding and packaging it such that we can now pick it up and run with it in twenty minutes (hyperbole, but maybe not so much.)
"People are thirsty for color, they live for color."
I'm reminded ofTimothy Leary How to operate your brain [video: 26mins]
"The medium is the message" ->
"he who controls the medium controls your brain" ->
"he who controls your eyeballs programs your brain"
Cool stuff to experiment with.
@ VN:
DeleteBeing direct, not meandering, it was the manner in which you responded to the questions, not your specific content, that I was interested in.
Huge torrents of words aside, natural observations being:
1. VN will post vague stuff.
2. VN will respond by insulting within long meanderings, if challenged to be more specific on said vague stuff. [The 'bore them to death so they don't ever bother me again approach' I've heard it's called.]
3. VN states this plainly and sportingly by the 'building castles' imagery.
4. VN makes the point that ultimately VN prefers that all eyes are to be focused on VN.
5. XK's fun could get in the way of VN's SW domination [a worthy and significant short-term life goal for VN no doubt].
VN could have saved herself an awful lot of unnecessary typing but VN enjoys [too strong a term?] verbal meanderings. Each to their own.
So, LOL, to this little snippet:
"I build castles in other people’s heads. And I make sure there is no window left except for their eyes which are turned to my face. That doesn’t say anything at all as to whether I’m saying the truth about my opinions or not."
Response A:
Castles etc? Eeeeww. Yuk. What you describe is one naaasty way of relating to people. My sympathy if true.
Response B:
OK, truth now. Your looooong comments were all a wind-up right? It's just your version of humour, right? Right? 8-)
Response C:
Strategic I guess, of sorts. Either one spends time trying to decipher that crap or one spends time finding the humour in it.
The latter being the quickest and more personally rewarding.LOL
So all in all, you are currently presenting as an individual who does not wish to engage with someone who will pick them up on any vagueness and will not by default value your opinions. Castle-building is what it's about for you.
Also, character analyses of XK were included in the loooong posts so XK could play, so here we go. LOL
"We are not plotting against you."
Why the *hell* not? Huh? I bet you are really. 8-)
"In fact, I don’t find you have opinions of your own."
What did you say Bravo about then? The punctuation? The use of prepositions? Mind you, that Bravo was also the start of the VN defensiveness, I recall.
"Is it fear someone will question you back?"
LOL. Yup. I get absolutely terrified responding to total strangers online.
[VN thinking: well if XK's not afraid by now, they sure will be soon....gnash of VN's little molars.... Or perhaps?... VN is sipping a cool drink, smiling wickedly, thinking yes, XK is getting annoyed, VN's successfully seeping into all those gaps VN's been naturally observing....attack XK's soap box rants first, then the directness, then boredom of long posts, and then the humour.., and then......, and then....] LOL.
"Or are your opinions so precious that you prefer to keep them to yourself?"
Ahh my preciousssses. Of course I do. 8-)
"Do they simply not exist?"
This is surreal. You are doing this in exactly the same order as North's first 'have a go at XK attempt.' Do all narcissists do it by numbers? The same numbers?
Anyway. Sigh. Onwards, with the passive-aggressive insinuations.....
"If you just want to have fun"
Just? Just? LOL. Do *not* have fun. Because it'll absolutely get in the way of building that castle, right? With those windows all looking? LOL
"excuse others if they don’t always take the time to explain things to you."
....and: The Prim Patronisation finale. Softly chiding. 8-)
"(yes there is more you'll think about making less questions next time <3 )"
The 'That'll Teach You' statement. 8-) It's [rightly] Very, Very Intimidating. Truly Terrifying.
Response D:
OK, bored now. Well, I enjoyed myself [and I'm sure you did].
XK motto: why scowl, when you can laugh. 8-)
Very well. :) 1. I see you aren't interested 2. in my content, but only in reviewing my posts a 3. nd making natural observation 4. s. Keep having fun.
Delete(I've already put the numbers for you)
-VN
I was initially interested in your mindset. Your content, as you say, is just your smoke screen. Then when you became defensive for unknown reasons, I checked, and yes, you dislike being challenged, even politely.
DeleteSo, into the 'too sensitive basket' for you. It is odd though.
XK
Interesting, tell me more about that.
Delete-VN
It's for you to tell.
Delete"Or the child who will both build it and then kick it down."
And about that.
XK.
@ North:
DeleteYou knew if you stuck it out long enough you'd get someone of like mind to talk to.
North and VN synergy.
It could be 'second time lucky' with a sociopath.
This one could be a caring, sharing one.......or....
"the child who will both build it and then kick it down."
Maybe not. But at least you are getting warning this time around.
[yeah yeah, I know: "f*ck off XK" you rude, intrusive, unfeeling ne'er-do-well]
But that is my Public Health Warning altruistic Deed of the Week. Feel free to ignore, as your gut instinct dictates.
XK
XK, I know myself. That's why I asked you and not me. I was interested in what you had to say. But its ok.
Delete-VN
Sometimes it is best to conform, to get what you want, for example dressing up formally at work to fit in and look like a team, and to win a case.
ReplyDeleteOther times, it is better to not conform. To be yourself, and express your individuality. Part of that can be through clothing.
The persona you wear will depend on the situation you are in. You will find that your personality is not set. It changes because different personas afford you different options.
This is highly interesting. North I have read all of your comments and love what you've said. These discussions really make me think. I love Alan Watts and I understand your point about the existence of things giving them value because by existing they deserve to exist, and that it's the human mind that then comes in and deems some as less fit for life than others... But in reality they are two types of fruit growing from the same tree and neither fruit chose to be that fruit before it started hanging from the tree, it just happened to pop up and be there and eventually it'll drop from the tree. Sociopaths and neurotypicals are just two different manifestations of the same life force, the same flow and the same energy. It's all the same but different. So maybe what can be worked with here is coming to a deeper place of seeing the oneness of everything.
ReplyDelete"just two different manifestations of the same life force,"
Deleteyup, I like that a lot.
though i wouldn't say 2 fruits on same tree, i would say same fruit with different experience.
"So maybe what can be worked with here is coming to a deeper place of seeing the oneness of everything."
DeleteYes! That idea that we are "profoundly rooted in and connected to" the universe, that we are all the Big Bang or whatever it was.
"it's the human mind that then comes in and deems some as less fit for life than others... But in reality they are two types of fruit growing from the same tree and neither fruit chose to be that fruit before it started hanging from the tree,"
This is why I like to think in terms of resources and the immediate, pressing need for physical survival. Understanding everything we do in terms of the investments* we are making and the resources we are utilising and collecting gives me a workable explanatory and predictive lens that works across the neurodiversity spectrum.
We have different survival techniques.
But same life force! And urge to preserve our own current existence, little bastions against entropy that we temporarily are.
* even be asked the same question twice implies a double investment of time for dubious ROI, which is visibly annoying to people.
monkey no 3-
DeleteI am enjoying your posts, and your point of view.:)
~Vegas
monkey no 3-
DeleteI like it, when people say "yup".:)
"though i wouldn't say 2 fruits on same tree, i would say same fruit with different experience."
Well said.:)
~Vegas
M.E.
ReplyDeleteI'm new here so feel I should provide some form of intro and as such i will say that I am / I suffer from, the spectrum diss / order that we call human.
what stands out to me in this piece is....
"everyone should always be themselves"
being oneself in company is, to a greater or lesser extent, a relational experience for NT's ..... they are affected by the people and environment within which they interact. The herd mentality (fear of difference) due to the social contract (fear of exclusion) makes it v hard for the majority, living within mainstream society, to resist the pull of the group....
go with the group and you get to stay safe, it's the easy / lazy option and in the context of mainstream society it's totally understandable that people chose this option, but as an outsider it makes me pretty angry because I believe that this attitude creates a lot of strife and pain in the world.
I'm not a big fan of pain.
to counter my distain for, and disappointment in, the majority i try to love them. It's really difficult. I do this because it's the hardest path, when i succumb to hatred I know that I am being emotionally lazy myself so I talk myself back to a place of being at peace (as much as possible) with where we are at as a species remembering my own imperfections.
in telling myself that i love all the people (without having to like them) i get to distance myself from any sense of responsibility i might feel (as a feeling human) for most of the billion stupid uniformed acts committed by billions on a daily basis.
Saying "be yourself" is something that i understand as implying the existence of a fixed unchanging inner state of separation.....
Though i have an ego and experiences and beliefs (that unfortunately lead me to a horrible contempt for humanity at large) I hear my voice change slightly when i speak a long time with someone who has a different accent (e.g. Aussi ) and through the recognition of this I know that I'm inextricably linked to everyone I encounter. As such the idea of "being myself" in any fixed way seams unattainable.
@ Monkey no 3 at 9.26am:
Delete[Really? Monkey no 3?] 8-)
"when i speak a long time with someone who has a different accent (e.g. Aussi )... that unfortunately lead me to a horrible contempt for humanity at large"
LOL. Well there's the problem right there. Talking to any Aussi is enough to give even the Pope "disdain for, and disappointment in, the majority". LOL
8-)
Sorry. Just couldn't resist.
XK
XK interestingly you seem to have picked out some lines and come out with a different sense altogether....
DeleteI will try to be clearer ....
it's my ego, experiences and beliefs that lead to my contempt for humanity, ( the brackets indicate that the bracketed comment is an aside to the main thread ).
the Aussi accent was just an example of empathy in action.....when we unwittingly imitate the accent of someone we are talking to it is a sign of temporarily bonding with them. We are all chameleons to some extent, the chameleon is not the prerogative of the socio and psycho but just part of human interaction, some do it more than others.
glad it made you laugh just sorry for the misinterpretation....I wonder what your interpretation reveals about you?
perhaps just that you like to laugh.
as an extra i will say that my contempt for humanity extends, in extremists, to contempt for myself and as such at this point the contempt has to transform into acceptance and forgiveness for all or else i get stuck in a place of self hatred and self pity.
hope that's clearer
Mn3:
Delete"I wonder what your interpretation reveals about you? perhaps just that you like to laugh."
LOL. Yes, indeed. Sometimes the simplest assumption is the correct one. 8-)
There was no misinterpretation. I did this:
"have picked out some lines and come out with a different sense altogether...."
to produce humour, both for myself and perhaps for you. Hence why I said sorry in case your sense of humour is different and you thought I was being sarcastic.
I was, however, being sarcastic about Australians LOL. A more misbegotten bunch of so&so's you couldn't hope to find. 8-)
XK
XK
Deleteok, I see, there was no misinterpretation, but it is a misrepresentation of my thoughts so I didn't find it funny, that's why I came back so seriously.
now I know that your intention was humour I gotta say that it didn't work, maybe my mum's Aussi ?
nice to make your acquaintance though.
@ Mn3:
Delete"I gotta say that it didn't work, maybe my mum's Aussi?"
And who I'm sure is a very nice woman who had the sense not to fall for an Aussi man? Cause they are the crosses that Aussie women have to bear on a daily basis. LOL
[and if you have an Aussie passport I simply don't care!! Neither should you 8-)]
XK
XK
DeleteI don't have an Aussi passport and I don't care about nationalities either, so we are on the same page there and though I hate to generalise about nationalities I do get what you mean about the men folk...
I'm enjoying the banter and shall miss it over the wknd, I'm going camping.
catch you later on another thread
XK
DeleteHe is probably Aspie; forgive him, for he knows not what he does
lol, like it.
XK
Deletere stop moaning comment
sorry for that, I think I just need to get used to your jokey banter style.
@ Mn3:
Delete8-) Yup. LOL
Don't fall down a crevasse while camping [at least not before you ask your NY friend if she wants to post in here...] 8-)
XK
Is anybody demanding anything from psychopaths? I´ve never heard tv-debaters claim that "..sociopaths must now stop hiding behind faked friendly exteriors, they now must show their real rotten personalities!". And some folks perhaps DON´T HAVE a traditional personality to show? Some folks perhaps just are "walking willpower"? They may sit in a room filled with folks that really ARE Frank, Lisa & Mike etc & IS NOT the Chris his parents named him? Things get a little more complicated when psychos are involved in normal surroundings..
ReplyDelete"Is anybody demanding anything from psychopaths?"
DeleteI don't know, I feel like there is definitely demand that we were bells around our necks (metaphorically) while simultaneously demand that we be excluded. Basically it's the indignation of people who don't know who to ostracize because their targets aren't visible.
friend o mine was attacked in NY, middle of the night walking home alone when a guy with a hammer jumped on her. She had the presence of mind to come on to him !!!!
Delete"oh wow ! at last, I've been so lonely....so lonely....now you're here, you found me...let's go to my place it's just around the corner, i'm so happy you found me at last"
the guy was denied the thrill of her fear so he continued to act rough and threatening but she continued to come on to him ( NOT in a patronising way but just a kinda crazy way ) his thrill withered, he backed off and they went to her house, she made him coffee, he drank it, apologised and left."
most people are terrified of their own shadow so they are looking for something to be scared of, "normals" are scared of socio's and socio's are scared of being found out.
fear is the enemy, not each other.
@ Mn3 at 1.33pm:
DeleteThat is a brilliant story [about the NY friend]! And what an admirable human being [no sarcasm there, in case of misinterpretation]. Very useful to have in a crisis I bet.
Don't suppose you could get her to post into here could you, as an antidote to the wailing wall of wounded woebegone's herein?
XK
monkey no 3-
DeleteYour friend is smart.
Attackers do love the thrill of fear.
I've had male strangers flash me, masturbate in front of me, etc., on several occasions. I look at them blankly, like they are dumb, and/or with a slight grin. They seem disappointed, and leave...
~Vegas
monkey no 3-
Delete..."normals" are scared of socio's and socio's are scared of being found out.
fear is the enemy, not each other."
Well said.:)
~Vegas
XK
Deleteglad you like the tale, she's in her 60's now (happened 35 yrs ago) I will see if she is interested in posting here.
as for the wounded.....yes they can be a bit annoying but instead of being annoyed by them i try to see what my annoyance over their wailing actually says about me.....(it can be interesting to change the angle of ones observations).....
instead of saying "shit ! why they always complaining, can't they fucking get a grip n move on" i say to myself "why does it bother me that they wail"
that way I get to eventually not be bothered, once i've worked out why it touched me, and i get to grow.
they can wail...that's a reflection of where they are now.
give them time, don't provoke them, unless of course it thrills you too, in which case don't moan bout them wailing.
Vegas
My friend was probably ultra lucid and relaxed from drugs, she had just been dancing on tables at CBGB's.
"hat way I get to eventually not be bothered, once i've worked out why it touched me, and i get to grow."
DeleteYes I know psychos who do this, stunt their humanity to become better psychos. Keep it up this is how the proud are self-doomed. The delusion becomes so attractive that they willingly kill their humanity and destroy themselves. When you're doomed to hell you won't even be able to blame anyone but yourself. See now why hell is not too harsh of a punishment?
Before that, however, you'll become a victim of your games eventually, here in this life. How blind one has to be to not see this and puff themselves up with pride.
DeleteJonaid
Deleteare you are jumping to conclusions about who I am ?
the detachment I'm talking about (the not being bothered) is the detachment that people search for when they meditate, (only I find it more useful to try to find it in my day to day life) and the reason people what that detachment is because negative emotions can be a real drag.
If I can observe my, very human and not stunted, reactions to something that touches me and i ask myself "why does this touch me?" in asking this question I give myself the chance for self discovery and possible alleviation from the irritations of others peoples wailings.
It's a way to stop looking for others to blame for my experience of life, and to take responsibility for my own feelings, and in doing so I also heal my own wails....thereby avoiding the creation of more shit in this world.
eg...
After looking inside honestly I might find that the persons, possibly justified wailing, was bothering me because I judged that they had nothing really to complain about because I believed somewhere that my own suffering has been greater.....(please note that this is just one possible example I'm giving here).....after recognising why I'm bothered by their wailing I can start to cure my own problem which could be a problem of arrogance or of self denial of my own need to express my pain...or again of something else completely.
If I can understand why someone might need to wail because it's where they are right now in their exciting encounter with lifes rich experiences then I can also understand why someone else might be at a point of being fed up with listening to others wailings.
As for your endless wailings about god and the bible please consider this...
the only thing i need to take from the bible and the only thing that anybody ever needs to repeat from that rather large tome is that god is everywhere
he is in you, he is in me, he is in the soil, the air, the pollution, the goodies and the baddies, he may or may not be laughing but he is defiantly everywhere so have a little respect for everything and everyone is the only thing anybody needs to be reminded of and that the level of respect that one can show is just a reflection of where they are now and not something that's fixed and unchanging.
Amen,
and hurrah that I managed to avoid the temptation to call you a twat.
monkey no 3-
DeleteYour friend was definitely more relaxed than I would have been, once I saw the hammer.
There is a movie called "CBGB", that came out in 2013, that I saw.:) It was a good movie, and it looked like a VERY FUN PLACE!!!
~Vegas
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delete"If I can observe my, very human and not stunted, reactions to something that touches me and i ask myself "why does this touch me?"
DeleteIt touches you and any sane mind because we have something innate in us (the soul) which allows us to appreciate right & wrong, truth & false, love & hate, joy & sadness, etc. etc. When someone suffering "wails" its normal and HUMAN for you to feel something because of that. It is inhuman and irrational to expect that you should be indifferent to other's suffering always and just be living a stress free life always. We would not exist if all of our ancestors kept meditating and figuring out ways to undo their empathetic impulses.
Having said all that, I assumed the "wounded" you were referring to were your own victims. I realize now that was not explicitly stated in your comment so apologies if I misconstrued.
I believe the Bible on offer is not without corruption. The Qur'an is the final revelation and it affirms the divine origins of other scriptures but adds that they have been corrupted. No honest person reading it can say it's message is contradictory. It's also the only book which addresses psychopaths & their "energy" buddies again and again. Hell is not for believing in the wrong religion or for not doing the right prostrations. Hell is for those who deliberately caricature the truth, mislead people, knowingly reject God & his message and opt to live in false pride, power, lust etc. etc.
@ Mn3 at 4.31/10.33 am:
DeleteI am not moaning about people wailing. If responding to that [why bother], however, define 'moaning'. So it doesn't lead to cross-purposes.
Not everything is about personal growth. It might just be about peeling carrots.
Re the Individual Currently Known As Jonaid:
It is likely that:
His Theory of Mind is impaired slightly so he is unable to conceive that other people do not have the same interest in any topics or causes that he is obsessively pursuing.
His ability to process social cues is somewhat compromised so any attempt by anyone to mildly protest regarding either any inappropriate content or its torrential length, sails way over his head.
His executive function differences mean that he consistently misinterprets the logic and hence meanings of others' statements, then proceeds to argue about those misinterpretations in the manner of a hamster on a treadmill it can never leave.
He is probably Aspie; forgive him, for he knows not what he does.
But for the sake of everyone's sanity, perhaps just leave him alone.
I do, however, congratulate you that you did not explicitly call him a twat, but your indirectness also probably went over his head too.
XK
This is the second time you posted an entire chapter just to suggest that I should be ignored.
DeleteJoniad.
Delete[XK grits teeth and swallows almost-voiced sharp retort]. Smiles calmly instead in a detached and friendly manner.
My phrase:
""perhaps just leave him alone.""
Your misunderstanding:
"just to suggest that I should be ignored."
My intended meaning:
'Don't hassle the poor guy he can't help his slightly skewed logic and social gaffes'.
This is why I suggest you should maybe go for that diagnosis after all and then do some CBT.
As for why I'm bothering, I already told you that in my first chapter.
Heaven help you if you call me a pathological liar at this point or be rude to me, due to your inflexible and rigid cognitive processes. Not because I'll be 'hurt' - you'll just be proving the point, *again*. Sigh.
Now, no more from me - get thee to CBT.
How's that for poetry, Vegas? 8-)
XK
Jonaid and XK
DeleteI agree with XK, the feel I got from what XK wrote was one of empathy not of aggression so don't take it bad Jonaid, it didn't come over to me as patronising etc but actually came over as caring. It came over to me like this...
'Don't hassle the poor guy he can't help his slightly skewed logic and social gaffes'.
Jonaid n XK
Deletein fact rereading XK comments I see that I misunderstood a couple of comments too, (re moaning)
I shall give a little more time to reading them from now on,
I now see XK as relaxed and witty, I start to have pictures in my head of who some of you are, nice to meet you
going camping now for the wknd, happy wknd all.
vegas
Deletethanks for your comments
nice to encounter you too
very interesting blog all in all, glad to be here.
will see if my friend from cbgb's wants to join, i'm sure she would add an interesting perspective
XK-
DeleteThat was great poetry.:)
That was wonderful work, with Jonaid.:)
Thank you.:)
~Vegas
monkey no 3-
DeleteYou are more than welcome, for my comments-they are sincere.:)
That would be cool if your friend from CBGB's joins-I'm sure she would add an interesting perspective.:)
Maybe I will get to find out more, about her experiences at CBGB's.:)
Have an AWESOME time camping!!!
~Vegas
"This is why I suggest you should maybe go for that diagnosis after all and then do some CBT."
DeleteIf you had any clue how liberated I am from the mass confusion which plagues psychology and the general masses, and so many of you.
I was lost and did go to therapists before but now I understand far beyond human psychology and it's not because I'm brilliant it's because God grants wisdom to those who are patient & truthful.
I haven't been rude to you XK. If I were rude to you, you'd go away and get a new ID. I just labeled one post of yours "stupid" because it evidently was. Still, I apologized for that. Don't get carried away now.
Have a nice day!
"But we still love to preach the doctrine of conformity."
ReplyDeleteThe whole purpose of preaching conformity was to show people how doing so results in the best outcome for everyone and not doing so eventually leads to societal breakdown. Once society begins to prosper, and those who've seen real struggle in their lives die away, the new crowd gets spoiled and starts to question "why should I have to do what you say"? If their parents raised them right, they would know why and would understand for themselves.
"Similarly, even from many people who seem a little more open-minded about sociopathic identifying individuals still an inherent, there is often a trailing "but" or "as long as they behave."
What do you expect? Society should welcome people who have no respect for authority, for fairness, for rules, for right & wrong OPENLY? That's a sign of decayed civilization. Everyone knows that not everyone follows the rules, that there is corruption, that there is cheating etc etc. The system is designed to tolerate a certain amount of turbulence but who on Earth would, in their sane minds, PUBLICALLY announce that those who deliberate deceive & break the system are acceptable.
"But I want you to think, you normal people, how toxic it is to your soul when someone, some situation, or some institution has denied you authentic self expression."
Only when that self expression is indeed authentic and not harmful to anyone else. I'm gay and I know better than most gays in this culture the torment of being closeted. That does not mean I throw my objectivity out the window and demand that society tolerate everything about me and my sexuality just because others get to live "closet-free" lives.
"How terrible is it to you to not be able to be yourself?"
Not being genuinely cared for and treated like a human being is what is really terrible. With my sexual orientation, my religious background, and my health history, I would be a celebrity for the gay rights movement, for the anti-Islam propaganda industry. These people will love me and my being "myself." Only that "love" is superficial. All that together won't add up to a single hour's worth of genuine affection I get from my mother who - for understandable reasons - may never be fully comfortable with my sexuality. I prefer my mother's one hour.
"Also, think about how pressure to conform unnaturally is likely what leads child sociopaths to develop in such grotesque ways."
Shitty genes and shitty parent(s) are the primary reason why people are sociopathic. Let's not shift the blame to society when our own homes are dirty.
"Maybe for those proposing solutions to the so-called "sociopath problem," ask yourselves what you're really demanding of sociopaths and ask yourselves whether you would be fine with those terms if the roles were reversed."
Sociopathy is not a fixed condition and it is evidently a pathology. It is imperative that people not judge, be compassionate and forgiving, and give more to those who are lacking inner peace. However, to openly accept "sociopaths" as being "just different" and therefore okay is utter stupidity and a green light for civilization to be run over by a stampede.
"who on Earth would, in their sane minds, PUBLICALLY announce that those who deliberate deceive & break the system are acceptable."
DeleteAnyone sane enough to determine whether a system is insane enough to warrant breaking.
""Also, think about how pressure to conform unnaturally is likely what leads child sociopaths to develop in such grotesque ways.""
DeleteAn excellent example of this is Christian Longo. Brought up by Jehovah's Witnesses. Reading even a brief biography, obviously by late teens was a 30+ PCL-R psychopath. However, undiagnosed completely.
In his mid-twenties killed all three children and his wife. Why? Didn't want to be embarrassed as a financial failure to his parents and community.
Now you have to accept that divorce would have been simpler and less lethal. Or even sending them off on a bus back to the original community. But no. He killed them. To him it was easier, quicker. And on one level, it is. But.
If he had been 'identified' as psychopathic, within that community, and given extensive therapy for years, involuntarily if necessary, he probably could have been made to realise by his mid-twenties that a] don't get married, b] don't have children c] disposing of your unwanted children and wife doesn't mean - lethally.
So I think that is what M E suggests by that statement.
"Shitty genes and shitty parent(s) are the primary reason why people are sociopathic. Let's not shift the blame to society when our own homes are dirty."
Well no; lets. If society was prepared not to demonise psychopathy, but regarded it as just another neurological issue, requiring identification and extra-thorough socialising of younger ones, Christian Longo's parents might have had to ensure he attended a clinic for some years as a teenager, see a shrink, and not end up reaching adulthood taking an 'easy' way out regarding disposable objects like children and wife.
He might still have been financially irresponsible, pathologically lying every chance he got, and drifting around; but it would be, I suggest, worth the effort to at least 'modify' him.
The point is that if you have a group of people who are very difficult to socialise, as kids even, society, unless it *is* decayed, needs to put in the effort to do that, because society ultimately benefits.
And you don't get something for nothing. Even society.
XK
Like you said, he was ashamed of what his PARENTS and community might think. Must have been shitty parents - OR he lied and pinned it on them. I'd say the latter is more likely considering he's a psycho killer.
DeleteAll frauds should come of the closet and fight for their rights. Oh right, they can't they have no spines because they know they're frauds. They can't even come out on sociopath forums let alone publically. At least the gays struggled for their rights.
What a stupid post "XK." Try being honest you'll get smarter.
Jonaid, you are rude, ignorant and Aspie. You have no concept of social niceties, you insult, intrude and have the self-awareness of a piece of string. I am sorry for you, but will ignore you from now on.
DeleteI think it is a great shame you have nothing better to do with your time than be unpleasant and unlikeable, in great quantity, online. Go and get diagnosed and undergo CBT so you may one day find someone who can love you, even a little.
Because at this rate, that day is very very far off in your future. You are a truly silly young man.
Do you even realise what an emotional child you present yourself as, with comments like "try and be honest and you'll get smarter"? This is something one hears from a seven year old in the playground. Just before they go "nah nah nanah nah". Do you actually believe people in real life don't notice these aspects of you when they interact with you? Honestly, I'm starting to feel sorry for you again as I'm writing this. Because you really don't have any idea how you come across. You poor boy. However, my tolerance of your bad manners is at an end.
As I do not pathologically lie, believe all the above.
XK
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DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThat was actually rude of me, even if you deserved it. I hesitated to remove my reply because narcissists and socios often mistake courtesy & empathy for fear. In any case, apologies if the above two comments were read and they hurt.
DeleteAs I was reading my post, something happened which reminded me that I am far from fully in touch with my own emotional side.
ReplyDeleteMy 2 year old niece bumped her head on the table where I'm working. She starts crying and her mom (my sister) hushes her up. A minute later she walks back to the chair, staring straight at me, and still crying. I look at her and go back to my screen. A few seconds later my sister tells me "she's looking to you for some comfort." I'm surprised at my own cluelessness - so I apologize to my sister, admitting I'm kind of "slow" when it comes to picking up emotional cues, and pick up my niece.
I really do love her a lot and she loves me as just as much but this incident reminded me that I'm really disconnected in a lot ways which one would THINK are "sociopathic" but are in fact nothing of the sort. A sociopath would have acted more "appropriately" - perhaps more so than a normal person. I thought it was worth sharing because I've been misread many times in the past. I realized that I overestimate people's intelligence because I assumed that everyone, like me, used their reason and not just their emotions to determine if the other person is trustworthy or not.
@ jonaid
Delete"A minute later she [2 yr old niece] walks back to the chair, staring straight at me, and still crying. I look at her and go back to my screen."
How old are you and are you male or female?
Really? You can't tell my gender from my picture? I'm almost offended ;). I'm not a psychopath that's really me.
DeleteWhat's the relevance?
@ Jonaid:
DeleteAssuming you're not a teenage kid amusing themselves on this website, and having read the way you reply, mistake meanings and are pedantic often - have you considered you may be on the autism spectrum?
"A minute later she [2 yr old niece] walks back to the chair, staring straight at me, and still crying. I look at her and go back to my screen."
This is definitely not 'normal', and something an Aspergers male would do [I know quite a few of them].
Not trying to insult - but it would explain a lot.
Yes I have. I have some aspergers traits but not enough to be diagnosed. Keeping my history in perspective I know it's more seasonal (that is it comes out when I'm feeling down) and not the "normal" me. I'm naturally very jolly, don't like to be serious except when it's necessary, and empathetic.
DeleteThere's ups and downs in life. Real problems occur when you cross over to the socio side.
@ Jonaid:
Delete" I have some aspergers traits but not enough to be diagnosed."
You might reconsider that 8-).
If I can pick it up just from how/what you write...?
I'm not that much of an expert.
"Real problems occur when you cross over to the socio side."
Both groups have problem people within them. ASD people are hell to have long-term relationships with, for example. They can drive you nuts, literally.
"I'm naturally very jolly, don't like to be serious except when it's necessary, and empathetic."
Sounds exactly like me. Except for the empathetic part. 8-)
XK
I doubt you or anyone else on this blog has a clue what I'm really like. I come to this blog for serious reasons and hardly ever joke. As someone who's not empathetic, you'll probably never understand what I'm like because you'll never believe it. There are degrees - your kind can only go so far in understanding "empaths."
DeleteWith any luck I'll fall asleep now.
"How can it be that some people get to live an authentic and purposeful life filled with meaningful self expression, except sociopaths?"
ReplyDeleteYou are again talking like sociopathy was some sort of separate species, or subtype of humans. I assume this is part of your problem. It's one characteristic of sociopathy / antisocial personality disorder.
They are not. Actually, there even is no such thing as sociopath.
Usually the word is used for someone who is not born as a psychopath, but a personality that has been formed in early childhood from abuse.
And if you think about born psychopaths, if there is such a thing. You could compare it to any mental handicap. Like autism, schizophrenia etc.
There was a great writeup about Breivik here:
http://www.tv2.no/a/8241631/
It tells a lot about how antisocial personality disorder develops.
"born psychopaths, if there is such a thing."
DeleteOh yes indeed there is such a thing.
LOL
XK
@ anon 5.55pm:
DeleteHave read the article now. Many thanks for suggesting it. It just about says it all 8-/
XK
In the name of God, The Merciful, The Compassionate.
ReplyDelete"Have you seen him who chooses for his god his own lust? Will you then be a guardian over him?
Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are only like cattle - nay, but they are farther astray."
Qur'an 25: 43-44
You seem to be becoming less sociopathic with posts like these. There's a crying out for connection and acceptance.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, though, I've personally just given up. I don't respect society as a whole enough to care about its opinion. To care about what society thinks of you is to respect it and give it power.
It doesn't deserve that respect or power. Most people don't fit in somehow - and that's where people seek out select groups of people where they do fit in.
It's harder for sociopaths, and more dangerous. Imagine meeting a group dedicated to sociopaths meeting other sociopaths. I could see it existing, but with a high chance of at least one person there being particularly dangerous.
@ Ad do:
DeleteI WANT TO JOIN THAT GROUP!
Even if there's a low chance of at least one person there being particularly dangerous.
XK
groups like that do indeed exist,
Deleteand have members from all levels of the spectrum,
most engage at the beginning without realising just how dangerous some of the members are
though they are initially happy to find their place amongst non judgemental similar minded types and they get to stay happy so long as they don't get too involved, if they should ever come to realise that there are some in their midst who are truly dangerous even for them, it will be too late to do anything about it,
these dangerous ones are already at the top of the food chain
you are right that society doesn't deserve your respect.
in a world where corporate power has no obligation to follow any moral standard we are already living in a sociopathic world,
be careful who you make friends with.
@ Mn3 at 3.02 am:
DeleteHow do you know they exist?
In what ways can some be dangerous even for others?
Too late as in too committed or too final?
XK
I have interesting encounters
DeleteAll groups are hierarchical, just look at any group of "friends" and you will see a hierarchy is present, so a hierarchy of immoral people can't really trust each other long term....so trust will be secured in the form of some minimal guaranty before you even know you are in it. If you really do crave power at any cost then you can go high up but you will always be compromised, you will never be free.
It will be too late as in too committed because you will already be too implicated and it will happen before you know it.....just look at the systems of power.....
"You seem to be becoming less sociopathic with posts like these. There's a crying out for connection and acceptance."
DeleteYeah, I really don't here a lot of "ex-socio" crap if things are going that direction. Especially if M.E. gets all religious on us. We already have one nut posting about God all day and that's one too many.
@Anon 3:36
"How do you know they exist?"
I know because I'm in one, though admittedly it's just online. That makes the group a little less contentious, it's more like here where we just share stories and thoughts.
"so trust will be secured in the form of some minimal guaranty before you even know you are in it."
DeleteEyes Wide Shut is unwise, in any circumstance.
"If you really do crave power at any cost"
Goals motivate. Power is necessary, merely. Cost a poor third.
"but you will always be compromised, you will never be free."
Free is a very relative term.
XK
This poem came to mind today, and I thought I'd share...
ReplyDeleteGia Carangi (Played by Angelina Jolie in the movie "Gia"):
"Life and death, energy and peace. If I stop today, it was still worth it. Even the terrible mistakes that I made and would have unmade if I could. The pains that have burned me and scarred my soul, it was worth it, for having been allowed to walk where I've walked, which was to hell on earth, heaven on earth, back again, into, under, far in between, through it, in it, and above."
~Vegas
Vegas that is how I feel about things. Even if your heart is ripped Out-if you can still feel and love and be loved its worth it. I loved that movie too. ;-)
DeleteAnon @ 2:28-
DeleteExactly!!!
I feel blessed.:) I can feel more, love more, and receive love more.:)
That is a good movie-I've seen it, several times.:)
~Vegas
Anon @ 2:28-
DeleteNot diminished, but enhanced.:)
I feel like Neo in The Matrix, when he realizes he is "The One".:)
Superchick-
To use your sound effects-POW!!! POW!!!
HA!!! LOL!!!
~Vegas
Speaking of which-Neo is such a COOL NAME!!!
DeleteIf I get another cat, I think I'll name him "Neo".:)
Speaking of cats-
Mr. Hyde, where are you???
I hope BB is still alive!!! What "life" is he on, now??? I'm glad you are keeping him away from that balcony!!! Cat's only have 9 lives...
~Vegas
Superchick-
DeleteWhen I used your "POW POW", it made me wish, I had a punching bag.:)
~Vegas
Superchick-
DeletePS-I have already shared this song, but I can't remember if it was before or after Socioempath shared with me, how to do links.:) Socioempath-YOU ROCK!!!
Plus, since your "POW POW'S" reminded me of it, and it is SUCH A GOOD SONG, I'm sharing it again.:)
Superchick, THIS ONE'S FOR YOU!!!
Tool
46&2
~Vegas
I like it !! : ) pow pow !
DeleteAwesome read M.E. Enjoyed. The iron in me is sharpen. : ) as iron sharpens iron
ReplyDeleteThe point of school is to make good worker drones.
ReplyDeleteNo offense M.E., but the thought of you at a pep talk is making me giggle.
I thought the point of school was to learn. Learning is useless if you already know everything though. Or think you do.
DeleteDamaged-
Delete"No offense M.E., but the thought of you at a pep talk is making me giggle."
I hadn't really thought about it at first, but then I read your post, and you are right-that is "giggle worthy".:)
That would be "free entertainment".:) I wonder if M.E. will let us know, when she plans to attend another "pep talk".:)
~Vegas
"How can it be that some people get to live an authentic and purposeful life filled with meaningful self expression, except sociopaths?" You mention that lions are meant to predate and lambs meant to graze and conflate that with the "natural" inclinations of sociopaths. Sociopathy is abnormal - humans were not meant to prey on people. Jesus didn't provide sociopaths with a model upon which to base their evil. Jesus teaches self sacrifice and humility. At some point, sociopaths made a choice to worship "the other guy" who rejects humility and self-sacrifice in honor of predation and vanity.
ReplyDeleteSo, you seem to think all sociopaths are satanists. From the posts I've read,they seem to be more of the atheist kind of people. Also they had as much choice in the matter as gay people have over their sexual orientation, as all sociopaths are born as sociopaths.
DeleteHi everyone, I'm so excited!
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So, you sold your soul to the devil cause you can't handle a break up. Teenagers these days.
DeleteThe BS in here is monumental.
ReplyDelete