KAT has always reminded me of Bite Me. Bite Me took on different names over time iirc. Green eyes, ge, kat. Perhaps smartie and stay smart. Alter as well? I can't recall them all. I thought A and Bite me got along at some point. Maybe xk can shed some light over this since she read the archives not long ago. I wonder how long did that take, to read the archives? But I digress.
If that is the case, bite me claims to be from australia. One thing for sure is that she has a xenophobic streak. Or perhaps i should downgrade this to her being prejudiced.
She also has this recurring this about telling people they are not a sociopath as if it is an insult. Others do to on this site, but it feels like she wants to be most sociopathic of all. She absolutely hates when people think of her as a narcissist. At least A can take it and acknowledges it. I believe this was not the case a few years back right A? Some people evolve. ME is changing, so has puppy basket over time, both in different directions, both trying to get to be better human beings. A daily struggles with relapses. But hey relapses happen. We are all humans.
Old and Wise, I find it almost inconceivable that after being here so long, you might confuse Kat with Green Eyes. They are not the same poster, of that I am absolutely certain. I suspect the blog's new, downgraded Kat may be Smartie. They have similar posting styles, and this Kat appears only nominally less uptight.
But however much I find her to be tedious, she does not strike me as xenophobic.
You're not very perceptive, are you?
As for me- you may see me as a narcissist, just so long as you acknowledge that I'm BIGGEST narc of all, yo! ;)
Otherwise, the shame you induce might cause me to regress, and self-identify as a depressed, co-dependent nanny goat.
You don't want to be responsible for distorting my self-image, do you?
O&W etc, Shedding light here 8-) I'm none of the above. LOL. Let's just say none of you have a future at either the FBI, your local police force, or especially as a profiler on Criminal Minds. No xenophobia and no respect for the USA or other places I've ever lived. I told you O&W when you asked what I 'identified' as; ie. the label you choose to use is clinically meaningless. I know considerably more about my personality traits than y'all so it's a bit weird reading what you people assume about them; weird but interesting. Info point: One can be more psychopathic than someone else, but it's more a case of which bits are more elevated than other bits, and it isn't any kind of competition.
As far as the writing style goes, judging from the suggested options as to who I might have been once, far away and long ago 8-), since I mirror what people present [because that's what 'we' do, O&W, LOL], it'll probably never stay the same in any two threads. I read very fast.
Hope that helps. Q: was that last phrase me being sarcastic, helpful, passive-aggressive, amused, straightforward? See, difficult to tell, without using your own assumptions about someone's emotional state.
While we do share traits there are ways to distinguish. Narcs cannot differentiate between themselves and their food. Narcs still have feelings though they have the emotional stability of a toddler. Narcs cannot ever admit they are wrong. We don't LIKE to, but we can. Narcs actually believe their own lies while we understand that lies are tools. Narcs cannot let go of personality once they establish it. They cannot walk away and reinvent like we do. They are invested to the point that they will self destruct if reveled. I am not sure that Narcs "construct" their personalities the same way we do. The problem with getting more info on how Narcs think is that they, unlike a decent portion of socios, are unwilling to be honest about what they are. Well not just unwilling, I don't believe they are capable.
Tell me more about this “conscience” you speak of…
It’s actually something I’ve struggled to understand: what is “conscience”?
I sometimes regret the outcomes of my actions. This can range from, “well, that didn’t work out like I hoped” to “FUCK!!! That’s a hell of a mess to deal with!” and just about anything in between. I might even mourn the loss of the people and connections and things that are broken or opportunities lost. In some instances I feel anger towards myself for not following my own “moral compass” - the internal narrative is usually along the lines of, “I am such an idiot!!!” because I “knew better.” I might even have some anxiety about it – especially if I think I’ve gotten away with something, but I think I might be found out.
But I don’t think that’s the same thing as conscience – at least not from the conversations I’ve had on the topic. First off, it’s all about “me” – my mess, my self critique, my loss, my anger or fear. It has little to do with other people and their concerns (at least not beyond, blowback). What others tell me about it involves feelings I can’t relate to – maybe because the requisite affective empathy isn’t strong enough in my case.
Interesting. I think of a conscience as being innate, but it probably is not. It is likely formed by a continuous series of rewards and punishment during the formative years. I truly believe the main difference between socios and non is that socios are missing their emotional memory.
I am convinced they feel emotions but very fleetingly. I remember a post by puppy basket where she mentions crying her eyes out during animated features. Perhaps it is because the emotions are condensed in a short period of time?
Can you recall any emotions? Meaning can you make yourself feel an emotion that you experienced in the past?
A conscience makes you automatically recall emotions, positive or negative, before after and during particular actions, thoughts, speech, etc. It must reside in the mamellian Brain.
Perhas in the case of sociopaths they have to use they neocortex to analyze the situation first before they talk and act if they want to be high functioning. The use of formulae or a set of questions has been talked about before. A prosthetic conscience born in the neocortex, type of thing. Also this may be related to the fact that a sociopath usually takes a split secomd more than normals to answer questions.
It may be innate in some people, as it is innately absent in others(psychopaths) to whom it might've been passed down by parents? When on the other side the sociopath blocks the feelings because they’ve been proven in early childhood, possibly due to trauma or just no being taught(?), to not have been beneficial.
Yes there is a layer of reality which isnt there. The emotions are fleeting and as described in a past post, like a switch which turns on and off. It turns off quickly and it isn't there for the next time when very likely it isnt beneficial to feel. But it is turned off in every day life. When we see objects just as humans we wont make connections to feelings. It’s like tons of strangers you might see at the metro some times and think they look interesting but then not remember any of their faces again.The memory, the connections made, is cognitive and not affectionate. I personally can make myself feel an emotion. But in general I don’t by default.
This is why some sociopaths prefer to form and use their own set of rules and this way teach themselves a series of reward and punishment. It’s not always working great for me. I personally am not getting used to it its just something I might and might not do for some periods of time. -VN
"But I don’t think that’s the same thing as conscience – at least not from the conversations I’ve had on the topic. First off, it’s all about “me” – my mess, my self critique, my loss, my anger or fear. "
I think it is the same. It's dissonance, an indication that we might need to act to resolve an internal conflict of goals right where the rubber hits the road in our social interactions. Keeping our social place is always an important goal.
OldAndWise suggests the main difference between socios and neurotypicals is lack of emotional memory and I have come to a similar point. It explains so much of the different experience of self, different learning patterns (lack of regard for negative consequences), tendency to boredom, superficial connections to others.
As for "conscience", the dissonance a neurotypical feels is flavoured by emotional connections and empathy but from what you described, HLHaller, the mechanism and purpose is the same: prepare to make reparation/repair or defend.
Can it be constructed? Yes it can when we adopt a set beliefs. They become added to the heuristic and might override our natural sense and inclinations; a prosthetic as A and OldAndWise term it. This was the case for my entire life and it left me in a painful, painful place. This is why I now reject externally imposed codes and relax fully into my own judgement. As an adult organism, I'm a successful enough life form to trust myself.
"It’s like tons of strangers you might see at the metro some times and think they look interesting but then not remember any of their faces again.The memory, the connections made, is cognitive and not affectionate."
When I realized that it is possible that my husband is a sociopath, I began trying to "see" what the world looked like, through his eyes. You described exactly, what I imagined it to be...
I think there is some misleading about this. You all do define "conscience" as something only regarding yourself. But that is not how it "feels" like. And how it is within this.
"But I don’t think that’s the same thing as conscience – at least not from the conversations I’ve had on the topic. First off, it’s all about “me” – my mess, my self critique, my loss, my anger or fear."
OldandWise is right with a few things he says here. Yes, if conscience hits you, you are thinking about your self critique and your mistakes... but you miss the reasoning behind it. Conscience has nothing to do with bringing urself into a better position, it instead is about to bring somebody else into a better position. If you hurt somebody and recognize that, conscience will make neurotypical people to feel how much you have hurt this person and knowing that you have done will increase this feeling. So yes, this is about your mistakes, but its especially about what your mistakes did with others. Conscience is there to make you regret, not what you have done wrong for yourself but what you have done wrong for somebody else. Conscience is what makes you trying to undo this mistake so that the others can feel better again. North describes this more accurate as far as i can judge about that.
The next things I want to talk about are from Vegas.
"I think that one only has to "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you"..."
That is not completely right. I mean, yes thats part of conscience and that could be a simple rule for it, but conscience is even more. It is aswell "do unto others, how they do unto others".
The definition of conscience is "to know about the good and bad of your actions". So it is by far not only regarding yourself, it is esepecially your actions in the context of what they have caused to others. Was it good or bad? And trying to minimize the bad outcomes for others, that is conscience.
It's almost impossible to do more harm to oneself in any other way than by harming others. You may have a "right" to do as you please with yourself and forgive yourself at will but you have no right to hurt another and cannot forgive yourself for doing so.
That's why a healthy conscience makes you feel more regretful & guilty when you hurt others rather than yourself. It is actually helping YOU more than the other by preventing you from doing that which is most detrimental to your humanity. You diminish your empathy by hurting others (and not attempting to make amends) and gradually become more psychopathic.
All good fodder for thought – one of the reasons I enjoy this forum.
The notion of emotional memory is an interesting one I will have to give some consideration. I do think my emotional life is quieter and less complicated than other people, so it may be that those feeling just don’t imprint as strongly. I don’t always have feelings, but when I do, they aren’t too complicated. You could say I’m happiest when I’m not feeling anything.
To answer O&W’s questions, yes, I can recall emotions and I can make myself feel all sorts of emotions – but there’s a deliberate element; I’m deciding how to feel about it and then feeling that way. It’s one of the things that I find so exhausting about being around most people – they need that empathic response. Being “authentic” makes most people uncomfortable –
Anon 3:52 seems to understand my question best, however. It’s the feeling what others are feeling and incorporating the feeling/experience that I find elusive. It’s the bad feeling for others suffering that I have trouble with. If I meant to do something that makes them unhappy, I’m pleased that I achieved my goal; if I didn’t mean to make them feel bad, I’m annoyed with myself for getting it wrong (however it happened). But, I find their expressions of emotion messy and annoying more than “sharing” them.
As to good/evil or right/wrong – those are very cognitive concepts for me…
Conscience is there to make you regret, not what you have done wrong for yourself but what you have done wrong for somebody else. Conscience is what makes you trying to undo this mistake so that the others can feel better again.
How do we learn it though? We are not born with it, are we? Why is it that something unconscionable in one society can be viewed as heroic in another? Why is it that some people never develop one as hhaler and others on this site describe? Is it too late to develop one in adulthood? It is beneficial to coalesce a group of individuals, ie a society, but how do you convince a person that does not have a Conscience that it is beneficial to them as an individal? Is it?
"how do you convince a person that does not have a Conscience that it is beneficial to them as an individal? Is it?"
Excellent, excellent question.
I still think empathy and conscience are personal safety mechanisms: they keep us connected to the tribe. There's nothing inherently noble about our feelings about what we think others feel.
Lots of us are wired for collaboration / connection and we inherently don't like to see others damaged. But as I say, this is not praiseworthy; it's only how we are wired.
Some of us are shocked to find sociopaths are not wired this way. It's easy to blame them for being unfair, but in reality we all behaving according to how our personal organism has adapted to its environment given our genetic inheritance.
What we label conscience is the emergence of patterned feelings, usually responding to predictions our brains have made based on beliefs.
Here's an example (easy one): a very senior colleague was pushing his point. I thought differently and pushed back. We both got pig-headed and felt uncomfortable where we had previously been building a wonderful relationship. I felt bad for pushing him as work had even treating him very unfairly in recent times. I also felt pissed that he wouldn't listen. Underneath these feelings were two competing drivers: I wanted to be recognised as contributing and I wanted to support him. When I figured out what my feelings were really about, it was very simple to design an appropriate course and we were sweet the next day.
It's a simple example but I think it's a really powerful illustration of what happens when we recognise there's nothing magical about feelings or empathy: they are just messengers from parts of ourselves to the "steering" part of ourselves.
One thing I find very interesting and absolutely contrary to human evolution is despite how selfish and ego centric a sociopath is there is something within them that betrays their actual self. In other words its as if everyone-including Themselves-are disposable. Sociopaths so many times don't know-and I personally don't think they are Faking-why they do things that are incredibly self destructive. Everyone makes mistakes but sociopaths cannot learn per say from their mistakes. It is the sort of serial self destructive/self sacrificing behavior that seems contradict the laws of evolution.
Laws are only our way of trying to understand and control our environment. Laws are only models; that's why scientists change them when contradictory data is available.
It's always better to look at the evidence and adapt the model than to squeeze evidence to fit an extant understanding.
Sociopaths exist with their constellations of characteristics; there's no use questioning that. It's better to understand how they operate as best we can then update our understanding of them and of the human condition overall than to use old conceptions that don't do the data justice.
Selection only requires an individual pass on its genes and adequately protect its offspring. Sociopaths evidently provide sufficient advantage to their offspring in enough cases for the type to exist in the species. This is all given based on the simple data of their frequency in the population and the heritability of the relevant constellation of traits.
"We are irrational beings capable of rational thought" ~ Christopher S Hyatt
We all do things all the time without knowing why. Yet it's all probabilistic and contextual. We are organic, adaptive, learning physical processes. Rationality as a guiding force of life is the illusion. We are bundles of neuropatterns.
But evolution doesn't give a flying fuck... What counts is who is fucking whom because that's how babies are made. The great benefit of sexual reproduction is diversity. We're just a diverse species.
All of this becomes simple when we stop considering humanity to be a special animal. We're just animals; they same mechanisms operate.
North I see what your saying. We are all animals. Humans "believe " they are at the top of the food chain. Sociopaths see others as prey. But in a strange way sociopaths are Prey-meaning they are t their own worst enemy. I know that isn'textremely scientific but sociopaths seem to be a strange mix of human and host. Predator and prey.
North I know I tend to get weird. ;-) perhaps all that separates US-socios and nons-is the illusion that we are different. This illusion is practically unknown to nons but it seems to be a driver behind sociopaths and a reason for them to feel superior. I don't know. There is still an iron clad veil that exists. I do know there are biological differences. A brain that seems a bit like someone who has done enormous amounts of Meth. Things firing every which way. I know you are very aware of all of the differences and that's not exactly my point. I'm not exactly sure what it is. :-) it's just very strange how such a different species can exist within another..
Maybe learning more about each other will cause us to speed up some type of evolution and meet in the middle. I think one of the most notable things I feel is a change in my thinking. I wonder what it might look like on an mri for example. Before and after.
And if I seem a bit preachy it's more because I can't overlook the similarities. The formulated thinking. The lying. These are things that seem to be key in holding sociopaths "prisioner" to themselves. We all are capable of liberating ourselves.
I guess what I mean is if you regard humans as prey and disposable doesn't that also apply to the sociopath himself. In that case there truly are no corners. No limits because self preservation isn't necessarily a priority. This majes
It's cool to keep questioning until your mind is satisfied and the dissonance resolved - no need to apologise for persistence in that endeavour. Our brains ask because they want to learn, it's as simple as that.
"but sociopaths seem to be a strange mix of human and host."
I kinda get this. I think when **-* makes himself available for me to communicate with him, that's a communication in itself. That's not a direct analogy; I'm trying to indicate that often they assume power they have actually ceded. It's a charade.
"it's just very strange how such a different species can exist within another.." Yes, this is what blindsided me (and probably most NTs) and this is the key question we are trying to resolve. Why didn't we know about these intra-species predators? If we knew, we'd have had defences. And really, this is why the "sociopaths are evil" mentality never cut the mustard for me; it was never a sufficient answer because the good v evil paradigm of thinking we find, for example, in religion, simply didn't give me the tools to recognise or handle **-* in the first place.
My process for understanding starts with the position that the constellation of traits works: it produces successful (biologically speaking) individuals quite often enough. From there, we can understand their strong functions and how they might act as proxies for the mental apparatuses they lack. This gives us a lot of information about the functions of our own apparatuses and rips to shreds a number of assumptions we make about the human condition.
But that's only my process, designed to address my questions in a way that satisfies me. We all have our own lens on the problems as they have presented to us.
"Maybe learning more about each other will cause us to speed up some type of evolution and meet in the middle. I think one of the most notable things I feel is a change in my thinking. I wonder what it might look like on an mri for example. Before and after."
I've also changed significantly over the past two years.
I wonder if ME could share more about her changes with therapy? I wonder how harnessing neuroplasticity in particular directions might be beneficial to psychopaths and what the hard limits might be. Whether they would perceive value in it. ME experimented with neurofeedback with interesting results.)
"And if I seem a bit preachy it's more because I can't overlook the similarities. The formulated thinking. The lying. These are things that seem to be key in holding sociopaths "prisioner" to themselves. We all are capable of liberating ourselves." I agree: our prisons are in our own mind. Often we have no clue a bigger world exists and this is likely for sociopaths, too. We all chart our own course, though, and there are strong incentives for an organism to maintain its current state of it's sufficient for existence. There's a huge overhead in change, not to mention uncertain results if attempted. There are efficiencies in retaining current patterns.
The human brain efficiently seeks outcomes. ~ Art Papay
The most important outcome is survival right now.
That's how I see it and I reckon that's why humans feel inertia over real self-change.
I believe change is so overdue. The shooting in Orlando reminds me of that. It is iincredibly frustrating and tragic. It makes me think of the strange fascination the sociopath I knew had with mass murder. They didn't reveal it till the end. I find it so chilling now.
Yes it's very tragic what happened. For me personally this one felt like a double whammy.
Events like this coupled with an off the narcissist for president (Trump) are the worst thing that can happen to this country, and the world. Trump can care less that the man was bipolar and obviously in psycho mode when he did what he did. He uses any opportunity he can get to win over clueless people. It's tragic and shameful.
"The lying. These are things that seem to be key in holding sociopaths "prisoner" to themselves."
May I make a suggestion. Stop focusing on lying, and 'being your own worst enemy' stuff. Those are only aspects of low-functioning psychopathic individuals who probably are of average IQ, low socio-economic groups, and bad parents. That is a sub-set only. You gotta stop assuming that's all there is. Think bell curve distributions. You'd have a much better chance at understanding, if you stopped to question those stereotypes. You are tying yourselves into painful knots because you're only considering the 'less successful'. And actually, in other environments, they would actually be the more successful. Your thinking needs to broaden, if you want an answer that makes evolutionary sense. Stop focusing on the 'failures', within current Western societies. Think what will be successful, fifty years from now, if it helps. What is successful in Libya, Lebanon, Mexico, Russia etc. Not in your current back yard.
And consider Jonaid's comment above. Think what will happen to your back yard if Trump the successful narcissist gets power. You might be glad of a few 'interesting' people in your neighbourhoods after a few years of Trump.
Sociopaths lie. Successful ones. Ones in prison. Ones that shoot up nightclubs. Ones that change their identity every five seconds. They lie. What would happen if they stopped? That's all I'm questioning.
"They lie. What would happen if they stopped? That's all I'm questioning."
Fair enough; I realised that. I'm just questioning the validity of your question, is all. What I suggested is why are you focusing on sociopaths lying - when everybody lies, all the time. What is so worth focusing on there, when everybody lies, just like them? Probably for exactly the same reasons. What would happen if all normals stopped lying, for example. And BTW I don't lie, which is why your assumption is a bit odd to me.
North, I have no idea what is your problem currently. Perhaps you are regressing, hopefully temporarily. However, being regarded as inane by you is both a relief and a compliment.
??? say again? Yes Anon, they keep telling me I'm special. Probably because they expect me to go around lying, but I just can't be bothered. So they go on thinking it's just an anomaly, not their mistake. Life's very tough for the truthful. Maybe that's why everybody lies so much.
Since everyone has covered the what is a conscience questions pretty well I will address the Unasked question of why socios don't have one. Yes it has to do with not having a emotional memory but it goes back to how we were raised. We all grew up in a Narc household. This means we were punished arbitrarily for things we did, things we did not do, if we had siblings the same behavior would merit differing punishments. We were punished for THINKING WRONG (contrary to whatever our Narc parent was thinking that day, which could change five minutes later) and most important we were punished for FEELING.
Let me reiterate that last one. Feelings were punished and ridiculed. Why don't I have a conscience? How the fuk was I supposed to develop one when the rules to what was right and wrong changed on an hourly basis? Lying is a defense mechanism when you are raised like this. The truth is punished so lies become the norm.
I still don't have a conscience. I do have formula/codes to keep me from doing things and to fix things when I fuck up now though. Here is the fun part though. My fake conscience seems to work better at times then most NT's real one. I know why. Mine is proactive. I run my filter PRIOR to taking action. I don't require a conscience because I don't act like an ass up front. Conscience only works after the fact. Do bad, feel bad. That helps no one. If you examine your behaviors and prevent yourself from doing bad before the fact you DON'T NEED a conscience. Just sayin
Puppy baskets I'm not a sociopath but I also grew up with narc parents and I experienced the same treatment. I do understand how confusing that is and I believe it's one reason I was easy prey for a sociopath. I understand why you would need to use formulas and I'm glad it works for you. I do have to say for me personally a conscience is what I experience before I do something. Not after. That's guilt. All I'm suggesting is reconsidering ideas that may Benifit people such as yourself. It certainly couldn't hurt.
"Yes Anon, they keep telling me I'm special. Probably because they expect me to go around lying, but I just can't be bothered. So they go on thinking it's just an anomaly, not their mistake. Life's very tough for the truthful. Maybe that's why everybody lies so much"
Kat, when we are discussing our experiences of others and talking about the way we make sense of them, we are not levelling blame at you or your kind.
There's no need to take it personally.
It's a simple fact that our species has not as yet adequately accounted for neurodiversity in our conceptions of ourselves.
This is always an adventure for me. I learnt a very long time ago that blame is a shortcut, a short circuit.
Please don't write any more nonsense about us having problems. It demonstrates you don't understand the process we go through; and while that's understandable, we are posing you no threat and doing you no harm, so you could either observe and learn more about the human condition or go on your merry way.
I hope this is quite clear. Please stop assuming. If you are not sure, ask questions. If you are not interested, skip the posts. If you disagree, at least read the comment first and make a reasonable argument.
As it is, you're coming across as either a troll (which you've assured me you are not intending) or as reactive. This post is to address the latter possibility.
Let me reiterate that last one. Feelings were punished and ridiculed"
Exactly this! Puppy Basket, I've had very deep experiences this week and your posts are helping me crystallise my understandings of them.
When I have feelings that aren't pure happiness or joy (which were allowed), what I always feel first is FEAR. I feel scared.
So I scan the environment and judge there's nothing to be afraid of. What am I scared of? No idea.
I have learnt to simply release that nervous E energy and let it flow and *eventually* the real feeling emerges. These days it takes about 30 minutes.
Yesterday, I figured out why I felt scared. I was afraid to have feelings because I would be punished for them, or as I got older, to JUSTIFY, to rationalise them.
Easier not to have feelings at all. That's what the fear was: kill your feelings.
And that's how I squashed and diminished myself in order to survive my childhood.
But I don't need to be like that anymore.
Thanks Puppy Basket for sharing your experience, journey and reflections. I do think we can create fulfilling lives for ourselves, regardless of history and genetic inheritance.
so funny, isn't b and c. Have you ever stared fear right in the face? It dissolves into the deepest calm and awareness. That was one of my very first steps forward.
It's great to break the pattern. I feel there's so much grief inside gradually working itself out as I create new paths.
Did you know your parents were narcs? I didn't figure it out until I knew **-* was a sociopath. Then it all clicked, and in sharing that with my best friend, he realised his mother was a narc, too. It explained our strange bond: we were providing the validation our opposite-sex parents hadn't provided. Needless to say, that's another relationship that broke. Everything, everything is changing for the better, but it's slow and there are many tears.
Glad to help North. My brother turned out as having most mental diseases at some point in his life. Those that managed to survive narc parents without becoming sociopaths are fascinating to me. @jonaid Yes, yes I was a pathological liar. That was the hardest habit to break. The best way to help others with their sociopathy is to be another socio who is "recovering". Much like Alcoholics Anonymous we need someone who has life experience with what we are going through to be able to respect their views. We learn by example. For a NT dealing with us you can probably NEVER completely trust us. Just don't. You can get them to trust you by keeping everything in I messages, calling them on their bullshit, learning their tells and understanding that this is how they are. Accept them for what they are. Let them know you are OK with them being a sociopath. Then establish some boundaries. Also first and foremost make SURE you are dealing with a sociopath and not a NARC. The easy test is when they tell a lie you can disprove with facts. Do so, then if they accept and change their view then you are dealing with a sociopath, if they keep arguing and getting more and more upset and then get mad. That is a NARC run, run far run fast cut them out of your life. You can't help. Pray for them and everyone they are associated with because that is all you can do for them.
If they are a sociopath, get them ME's book, it really helps. Then direct them to other resources like this blog. Encourage them to come on and join the discussion. DON'T try to sway them with religion, emotional, or moral arguments. Those get us into a rather reactive mode. Detached logic is your friend.
If they tell you they enjoy messing with NT minds suggest they try and elevate others instead since that would be more of a challenge to their intellect. Suggest they give it a try for a change of pace and as an intellectual exercise. This is a starting point. I am heading to sleep and will think more on it and have some more suggestions for you. Oldandwise, North and superchick are your best resources here for this too. They all are in your position and have a lot of experience. I can give you what works with me with the socios that are my group of friends but as I am one of them my approach will of course be different than yours.
"There's no need to take it personally." ?????????? You know what is wrong with this sentence.
"Please don't write any more nonsense about us having problems." How many months have you posted into here. About the weather? Talk on. Talk on. About you. 'Us'. Them. At them. Why not.
North I remember thinking my parents were really difficult. I'm sure most kids think that but they were really,really difficult. I remember a councilor when I was 17 telling me I was the scapegoat and I had no idea what that meant. I felt a lot like that scene in rebel without a cause where he screams your tearing me apart.
I don't bother to say I have a conscience. I have a set of rules that fluctuate by my needs or desires. Help or destroy is all but a whim as to what I think will keep my attention, or benifit me most in the future. That is not a conscience.
conscience leads to emotions, and emotions are best avoided in most situations. Better to act on logic or information most of the time, and turn on the emotion only when it is needed.
Can't speak for Anon, but for me "turn(ing)on emotion" is necessary when I need to appear more NT than I am - feeling and expressing emotions for the benefit of my audience. Emotional indifference doesn't play well in most situations.
I can't manufacture emotions, but I can pretend. I do it frequently.
Vegas... Imagine someone telling you about a personal problem or tragedy. Do you actually feel bad for them? Intellectually, I can sympathize with someone, but I don't actually feel a damn thing. From what I understand, most folks have an emotional connection with the people they're supposed to be close to.
I think it is more for me that I have adapted myself to school my body language and features to show the proper reactions to fake empathy/emotions. Most people seem to think I am Zen in my reactions if that makes any sense. I appear sympathetic but not attached. Not sure I am explaining this well.
I think I lucked out in having "kind features". Strangers even gravitate to me, if I am in a store and a person in the store uniform is standing right next to me other customers will come to me for help instead of them. Strangers for no reason will start telling me their life stories and ask for advice. (Yes I find this hilarious) I can modulate my voice to sound like the most caring person on the planet. My accent will match yours in moments of speaking with me.My body language will be welcoming and I will read you like a book in seconds, and compliment you on something. In moments I will be your best friend. I will listen inventively to everything you say and read from your body language what you are not saying. You will go away from a interaction with me thinking you just met a person who thinks the world of you. I feel not a thing the whole time. I make peoples day's a little better just because I have the power to do so and it aligns with my code.
I am not exactly turning my emotions on. I really have no desire to do that anymore. Sometimes when I am listening to music or watching a show it happens. I am curious what triggers that. If anyone has an answer let me know. The funny thing about me is that when I am in my resting state, when I am concentrating on something and slip into the "real me", I have been told my default expression is "serial killer". Most people who have seen me like that are freaked out so I have to be careful in public and remind myself to smile occasionally and keep a less neutral expression on my face.
"ost people seem to think I am Zen in my reactions if that makes any sense. I appear sympathetic but not attached. Not sure I am explaining this well. "
You sound very much like **-* in this respect. People, including me, leave interactions with him feeling very calm and open. Others have commented that he is very Zen.
This created an example for me, a vision. In my case, I am learning to attach to myself; this means specifically that I trust and rely on myself to solve my own problems as an adult organism. It's very liberating to depend only on oneself and means I can create mutual aid relationships. Detachment then for me, is actually self-attachment rather than blunting or diminishing of attachment. Rather than looking to external resources to have needs met as a child does, I search for and utilise my own resources for emotional comfort, noting my feelings are messages intended for ME. This allows me to take meaningful action in making requests or collaborating with others.
It remains to be seen how **-* responds to this. One can of course tell him things are different, but as with most learnings, I judged he needed to experience the change to comprehend it. And I needed to enact it. These are words to describe my process retrospectively, of course. In reality, it was an organic, buzzing emergence involving my whole brain, a positing of my being through my full capacities. I was surprised it played out as I felt it would; but these things should surprise me less and less. Things play out well because our brains are marvellous predictive machines and we have so much capacity if only we get out of our own way.
Time will tell. I asked him to think about it. I suppose he thought about it because a few minutes later, he said he would. He's like that; if I give him something unexpected, he responds when he's ready to. Sometime minutes, sometimes weeks later.
Puppy Basket, you wrote below that you NEED rewiring. I feel the same, and it's by doing these sorts of things, by really embracing what it is my being wants and trusting its capacity to fulfil those needs that I posit and create the person I want to be.
The one I can't quite figure out is extremely zen and I really admire that about them. And the sociopath seems Zen until something doesn't go their way and then out comes the greased piglet. They have worked very hard to make sure things go their way.
North do you think that now that **_* is aware that you are aware of his games that his games might evolve in a way that you wouldn't predict or do you even see that as a possibility?
I experienced that too north. Responding when they are ready to unexpected things. They were so certain about things it really thru them off it seems to me. Its interesting to me how their game might evolve thru their own evolution and or adaptation.
"Zen until something doesn't go their way and then out comes the greased piglet."
Greased piglet, that's funny. I think it's a good idea to see others' behaviour from some distance in this way: another's behaviour gives us information about them and the way they interact with the world. We need not take it personally nor take responsibility for it. That's what I liked about your description.
I saw **-* upset / angry only a few times and each time he went silent and dark and got away to be by himself. Perhaps because he's older and has learnt. He has a relaxed personality type, too, ISFP.
"his games might evolve in a way that you wouldn't predict or do you even see that as a possibility?" This is a question in my mind, for sure. The ability to predict is essential and desired; often it's preferred over data so that we take things for granted. So I'm remaining open to data and my simple policy is to interact with him when the energy is good and refrain when it's bad. I understood I needed to give him an experience to show him what I meant: that his tricks simply won't work, that they lead to resentment, that he relinquished his real and raw power of attraction over me.
I don't think games will work at all. I don't need him, I am simply enjoying him.
How he adapts, that is an interesting question. Things were already very different - no promises, no flattery.
My sense is that manipulation is the only way he knows, it's like he had to throw that into the mix. I opened a different door for him; with full awareness it may not interest him at all. But I wouldn't take that personally.
We are two adult organisms that want to copulate. It's as simple as that. We go about securing that activity differently, we experience the interaction differently. That interests me.
Think of conscience as the universal law, the constitution, that is imprinted in the human genome. It's the "backup" that M.E. mentions that if only one could find and re-download. It is the uncorrupted soul. That is why it reminds you when you start going off, and it punishes you for violations (guilt, sadness, regret...) and rewards you for abiding by it (serenity, inner peace, sense of ease & comfort, love etc. etc.).
Some people attempt to do away with the original version and try to re-write it in a manner that fits ONLY them, or MOSTLY them as opposed to them AND everyone else. They can do a lot of damage to the original version, but they can never rid themselves of it completely and they can never rewrite a better version. Every alternate version will lead to loss eventually, in this life (for most people) and in the next (for some...the worst of the bunch).
The real psycho is the one who knowingly decides to re-wire his conscience in a manner that suits him and only him, and thus inevitably leading to some harm (at least) to others. The rest of the sociopath spectrum is people who inherited and / or were somehow coerced into a partial re-wiring (coercion includes being denied your basic rights...unconditional love from parents for example).
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful:
"And a soul and Him Who perfected it
And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it.
He is indeed successful who causes it to grow,
And he is indeed a failure who stunts it."
Qur'an 91: 7-10
Attempting to re-wire your original version is stunting it because you're denying it it's natural growth. Every emotion, every struggle, every pain eventually fades away and then there is relief and growth. Only the original version can grow, all other versions are like taking an exit off a highway that leads straight to your destination. It's impossible to find an alternative way when the destination is due north...every other way must eventually come back to the highway or leave you wandering forever.
But as explained earlier Jon that only works for NTs. I never had a base conscience to begin with since I was never taught a non fluctuating right from wrong. I have no base conscience to fix. I had to start from scratch. I am not improving on a base I am taking a spiritual path now because I want to. We are not born with a conscience. We are taught right from wrong as children and then told to feel bad if we mess up. To put ourselves in the place of others and feel what they feel. I am incapable of doing that so I have to rely on my codes and formulas. Dude I like what you have to say a lot but you still seem to think that sociopathy is some kind of life choice. As a sociopath I CAN and DO control my reactions and my actions, what I will never be able to do is feel anything about them at a meaningful level. It is all cerebral for me baby. I have choices about the path I take to deal with what I am. I don't have a choice to spontaneously grow a set of emotions. That died in me long ago. I don't really miss it or even want it back. I am at peace with what I am. But I understand my brain NEEDS to be rewired. My first impulse used to always be destruction. Myself, others, the whole world if I could. With many years of practice I now do good as a a first response most of the time. This has nothing to do with emotional growth and everything to do with spiritual growth. The amazing part is that as socios we CAN grow spiritually.
I respect you a lot, agree with most of what you said here, and applaud you for struggling instead of succumbing to your destructive tendencies. I would really love to discuss these matters in person with someone like you...I don't care if you call yourself a socio or psycho or anything. I can tell you are honest & probably more blunt than most people (which I respect more than anything).
Having said all that, the reason why I think you disagree with me is because I'm not fully capable of outlining exactly what's in my mind in writing. I don't doubt for a second that you didn't and can't consciously choose to have emotions or empathy. Trust me I know I'm not an "empath" when it comes to feelings (I'm probably in the middle or even closer to the socio side) and my sexual orientation is and has been exclusively homosexual. "Choice" is something I take very seriously. We both inherited our shortcomings and flaws from people (parent(s) and upbringing) and it's THOSE people who I'm describing when I attack psychopathy. Someone starts this and that person DOES make a choice.
The reason I trust God (and not just believe in His existence) is because He judges by intentions only. If you're completely incapable of any empathy but you use your reason to do the right thing, your reward is far greater than the one who was compelled to by their emotions. Vice versa is true as well. I don't care for labels - you can say you're a Nazi & KKK sympathizer who loves to fantasize about rape...I'll only want to know HOW you ended up there and what are your intentions. That's what determines if you're a good person or not, not labels that anyone but God pins on you. That is why when I do use certain words (psychopathy...) I carefully define what I mean by it, precisely because there is no universally accepted definition.
Ah jon I see where you are coming from now. I think we were having a bit of a discord with terminology. That cleared things up a bit. Looking forward to talking more later.
Whether this sounds patronising or not [to him, which I hope not] I appreciate your kindness to Jonaid. He's been not well treated here, it's good that someone else realises he's really smart, but with occasional odd syntax and logic. He's worth explaining to. Thanks.
@ Jonaid: Don't get annoyed, I know it's rude to talk about you rather than to you, but PP's manner towards you was worthy of note. Makes a change.
Thank you for the kind words. If I were going to get annoyed by anyone's comments here I would not have used my real ID. Unlike psychos I actually do have a thick skin!
"Our thinkers would be sceptical of the existence of a true self, especially one you can discover in the abstract. They understood that we are multifaceted, messy selves who develop by looking outward, not inward. Our personalities are formed through everything we do: how we interact with others, our reactions to things, the activities we pursue. You don’t behave the same way when speaking to your mother, say, as when dealing with a junior colleague, your dentist, or a close friend. Each of us is a complicated being bumping up against other complicated beings all day. Each encounter draws out different aspects.Who we are consists of behaviour patterns and emotional ruts we’ve fallen into over time – but that means we also consist of numerous possibilities of what we can become."
"The problem with authenticity, he’d say, is that it’s not freeing, the way we believe it to be. Who is that authentic self you think you have discovered really? It’s a snapshot of you at this one moment in time. If you stay true to that self and allow it to become your guide, it constrains you. It doesn’t allow for the sort of growth you experience when you recognise that you are ever-changing."
"When you smile as if you’re not angry, or bite your tongue instead of lashing out you are faking it. It’s because those “as if” moments create a tiny break from reality that they are so valuable. We act “as if” we are different and our feelings are more mature. By doing so, we transform into someone who is kind and generous rather than someone exercising the right to express authentically honest but destructive feelings. As we complete these rituals again and again, letting our behaviour lead our feelings rather than the other way around, we become different – and better – over time."
Well we develop by looking outward, sure, but you also need to look inward. You need to understand your emotions and make the best use out of them. They are as valid a piece of information as what your hear see smell, etc.
The funny thing is that when you become the target of a sociopath, you have to do a lot of inward work. Understand those conflicting emotions he or she triggers in you. This is the only way to grow from the experience. If you look outward only, for support and for blame, you become a true victim and you get stunted in your internal growth, sometimes for many years. You become bitter and spend way too much negative energy hating the sociopath.
From my own experience and also from reading North and MachiavelanEmpath a couple of years back, it looks like it is a common theme. Self reflection is what helps.
I'd like to hear what vegas has to say about it. Vegas you do not behave like the usual cranky victim. Sure, you may have a trauma bond to your ex. But between recognizing and chosING to handle the trauma bond in the best way possible or becoming bitter and cranky, I choose the former.
These ideas of a fluid complexity of being, of patterns of behaviour that can change, of crashing into other complex beings in coloured kaleidoscopic learning experiences fell out of the vast and ripping changes I underwent after discovering **-*.
It was pleasing to find resonance and wisdom in Chinese thought - I felt less alone and excited that these positions I came to very naturally held deep possibilities.
Pondering it now, I wonder the value of preferring focus on the current moment is the capacity then to be one's own being with less crystallisation, less definition. I think when we crystallise our concept of self, we create a much greater overhead when change becomes necessary. There is some benefit to crystallisation: efficiencies of patterned operation. But how much greater is the capacity to change easily and the ability to view the opportunity landscape with less constrained vision!
Yes, we are complex bundles of neuropatterns, learned responses applying in a new contexts. 'I think this' or 'I feel that' or 'I want this' - these are communications from neural centres with our neocortex The Great Verbaliser, giving voice to the realities we create from internal and external inputs. While we have multiple (legion, actually) "selves" in this sense, we can re-pattern and do so every time we learn something new.
The trick is to not attach to what we learn, what we have learned. Keep using it (for efficiency) until it doesn't work any longer, then find something that works better. Everything is in flux.
"The funny thing is that when you become the target of a sociopath, you have to do a lot of inward work. Understand those conflicting emotions he or she triggers in you. This is the only way to grow from the experience. If you look outward only, for support and for blame, you become a true victim and you get stunted in your internal growth, sometimes for many years. You become bitter and spend way too much negative energy hating the sociopath."
Oh OldAndWise, this is so true!! It's such an important message! And you're right: being a victim is a choice.
"The funny thing is that when you become the target of a sociopath, you have to do a lot of inward work. Understand those conflicting emotions he or she triggers in you. This is the only way to grow from the experience. If you look outward only, for support and for blame, you become a true victim and you get stunted in your internal growth, sometimes for many years. You become bitter and spend way too much negative energy hating the sociopath."
I completely agree.
On a trip to England/Ireland/Scotland, I found a plaque in a gift shop, that I love-it is a quote from Carl Jung:
I agree that self-reflection is an essential part of learning and maturing. But I have also seen, and participated in, too much inwardness, which easily turns into navel-gazing. Gazing into your own navel is similar to watching water go down a drain: It can suck in and down into a labyrinth of where only you exist. It can also lead to the false idea that you are the center of all that happens in your life, that somehow you command events outside of yourself via your reactions.
I do know that when I'm depressed for no apparent external reason, the worst thing I can do is brood about why I'm unhappy. Instead I follow a ritual: When depressed, DO. I clean, walk, do anything to become active and focused on the world outside of myself. Usually this works. I forget about myself, which in my experience is very liberating.
Another example: If, as often happens, someone makes me mad, I do my best not to focus on my anger (which leads to trouble). Instead, I focus on how the other person is responding, and try to filter their personal hate/disgust through the theater of the absurd, which sparks my humor and tolerance and often theirs. Later, when I have time to reflect, I examine what triggered my angry reaction.
As for MachiavellianEmpath, I always suspected she was M.E. Keeping track of alters on this site is impossible.
"Pondering it now, I wonder the value of preferring focus on the current moment is the capacity then to be one's own being with less crystallisation, less definition. I think when we crystallise our concept of self, we create a much greater overhead when change becomes necessary. There is some benefit to crystallisation: efficiencies of patterned operation. But how much greater is the capacity to change easily and the ability to view the opportunity landscape with less constrained vision!"
I agree. If we are who we are depending on who we are with, the only permanence of self we are left with is one that is dynamic and fluid. If that is the true core of the self, if the legion within us ebbs and flows according to our ability to adapt to any situation, then we are blessed with the infinite potential to grow in any direction.
Glad you enjoyed the article and hope you continue to share your thoughts on SW. Your journey interests me.
It is absolutely your choice if you chose the latter. As long as you understand that you do have a choice. From what you hear and read on the Internet and elsewhere, people try to convince you that you not have that choice, that the sociopath has or will eventually "win".
Btw he wins when he succeeds in making you bitter and cranky. He loves it. He thrives on it.
Mr. Hyde, thank you fro sharing that loved the article. I try to always stay in the moment myself and I think that it is very freeing. Since I have no real core me, I recognized long ago that it was just another construct and let that go. I am what I am and recreate myself each moment. Living this way is freeing. I have a framework of behavior so who I am ends up being what I do.
So many people seem so focused on what is in their own heads being who they are. Yet everyone they meet can only judge them by what they do. I know many people who think they are one thing and present themselves as the exact opposite to the world. We are our delusions if we do that.
Your choice of language here intrigues me. I was pondering some very similar concepts yesterday and came to those exact words to describe myself: I AM.
So true -- many people focus on what's going on inside their own heads and hearts (they believe their feelings define who they are). It's weird to become too attached to a rigid definition of one's identity, one's thoughts or feelings -- you never know when circumstances may bring forth a hidden dynamic buried somewhere deep inside. It could be the urge to murder someone or to sacrifice oneself: the more conscious we are of our drives and patterns, the more detached we are from one's identity, the better our choices will be.
@North,
I like that: I am. I think therefore I am. I want, therefore I am. It's all the same far as I can tell.
Yes, Mr Hyde, we are ever-emerging processes; an awareness of our own patterns gives us information to steer that unfolding. And you are right: we can always surprise ourselves! And that's not so bad; there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so ;)
It's all "risk management. The spinning of the given moment's scenarios. Pattern recognition."
North I think understanding is the key. I have had more than one experience with a sociopath. The first time I was very confused. I didn't hate them but the experience did affect me in that I was vulnerable to their game later on. I needed tounderstand what they were. I needed to have a reference. I'm not sure if it could have been avoided-if I could have understood what they were without experiencing it for myself. But I feel more like myself now. Just more aware.
I think that learning process (I can only really say for me) - even through subsequent vulnerability - is the opposite of victimhood. It's curiosity, crossing a human frontier, becoming through experiencing my own choices.
That's how I came to be myself.
Experience is a brutal teacher. But you learn; by God you learn ~ Shadowlands
Experiencing a sociopath's targeting is a new frontier; it's entirely unknown, unimaginable territory, only sketchily mapped. The compasses we've previously succeeded with spun helplessly haywire - by these I mean predictive models of human behaviour based on social and religious etc understanding of the human condition. So the learning experience means a hell lot of mapping and creation of new tools.
Curiosity is our greatest aid: and it seeks both inwardly and outwardly.
But it is not surrender to victimhood neither is it any sort of victory although it leads to a deeper achievement of self and capacity to act.
North you are so right. I don't feel like a victim even though I may qualify as one. I think a lot lately about Jesus and the burning bush-that is a weird reference I know but mine nonetheless -and how he said he could call A thousand angels. There is something about Jesus I always liked when I was little. The way he was always tearing up temples and just not having it. That's how I feel now.
ABC it is a moral compass but one can't have a true independently working compass without a conscience. Your conscience is like the invisible poles that makes the compass spin.
I am the one and only true UKan. No other UKan Gods you shall worship on this site or else I must administer the consequences to all of SW. Let me offer you a word of advise. If you are wise and not foolish - you'd read up and become familiar about my particular style and type. We are not the same, but we have a particular theme that can look the same. We use this ability it for good or not for good. Look for it and I will bestow upon you my respect. Not to bash me, not to allow yourself to gain supply over me but to understand how my mind works and my level of understanding will always be three steps ahead of you. I can get you hooked in one interaction with me. I won't stop until you bore me and someone else comes along. Sometimes it's easy - sometimes it's not. I will build you up. I will charm you. I will make you believe you are the one who changes me. But your a means to an end for me. I use you for my own benefit. You will only win if I let you. I am cocky. I am dominant. People love me. People wonder about me.
I am you're UKan God. Any other types shall be destroyed.
I am ....that .... that I am -- UKan. Worship me.
Haha, Lmfao. It's just Superchick , i just had too blurt that. I'm only joking around here.....
I fell down on my hip carrying a huge tray of fudge two days ago. In emerg, totally bored. Don't want to be here but husband is making me because my high level tolerance of pain lets me do crazy things. He thinks there might be something wrong. It clicked and just fucked up to walk on.
Henceforth I have assigned my servants to spread the UKan gospel to all the inner parts and inner groins of SW. The good news shall fall on the ears that are not deaf. You shall see it and conquer above it. To those that are deaf-- you shall fall prey.
Thanks, I just have hip flexor tears doc said. Radiologist will have to read it thou probably tomorrow. They exrayed it , doc just looked at it. Gave me a prescription for physio ( they said it could take up to two weeks to heal) but honestly I don't think I'll do that. I have infared heat on it now and elevating my leg. I'll ice if need be. I fell down some stairs carrying a tray of fudge. I landed all crooked on my right hip. And took a good blow to it.
Hope you feel better soon Superchick. Don't over do it. Listen to the doctors. Know you hate it but you are valued here so do it for us and your mate :)
"The sense of touch is important for mediating our interactions with the environment, and for how we navigate the world around us," said one of the team, Luren Orefice. "An abnormal sense of touch is only one aspect of ASD, and while we don't claim this explains all the pathologies seen in people, defects in touch processing may help to explain some of the behaviours observed in patients with ASD."
It’s important to point out that the study was only done with mice. While these results are promising, they need to be replicated in humans for them to have relevance for future treatments.
But it's an intriguing insight into what could be going on in a disease that we still don't really understand, and which affects roughly 3.5 million Americans.
Different wiring = different data = different perception.
In addition, if the brain is wired differently, then the nervous system could also be wired differently, so as to ensure the neural connections are "compatible".
The heart is just as important an organ in producing oxytocin as the brain. Buddhist believe that sociopaths are cut off from their heart chakra as well as their third eye.
Thought provoking a always Mr. Hyde. I wonder if this has any effect for socios. I have a very high pain tolerance as most socios do and it does effect my behaviors. I have never developed certain "healthy" fears of injuries like NTs. This might bleed over into the lack of fear I have in social interactions too. My sense of touch is much lower than most peoples. Often times people have to point out to me I have injured myself as I don't notice. Question to the others is this true of you also?
I just read the article yesterday that the heart produces more oxytocin than the brain. I thought that was very interesting. I had no idea. The heart Chakra working with the lower sexual chakra brings about deeper spiritual bonding. The third eye is spiritual intuition.
Here's a link to a chakra chart, which lists basic info you might find useful. I haven't taken the site's chakra test, as it appears simplistic. The chart lists the seven chakras.
Kundalini is the life-serpent energy coiled at the base of the spine, the root chakra, which leads to the crown chakra, enlightenment.
I did have an experience during a yoga class that felt extraordinary: my abdomen got extremely and in that moment I felt tremendous compassion for a woman I loathed, who was writhing on the floor next me, which she did every week while releasing her 'existential tension.'
I believe the chakras are real. Thanks for reminding me . . . I need to resume my practice.
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First!
ReplyDelete:D
Socioempath-
DeleteYou posted.:)
I know this isn't your favorite kind of music, but I've seen them in concert a few times, and I just listened to this song.:)
This one's for you!!!
Fun
SomeNights
~Vegas
It's catchy. Not my genre, but, thank you!
DeleteAnd here's one for you. I think you're gonna like it.
:)
i didn't
DeleteWhy?
Deletecunt
DeleteYawn...
Deletejust a fancy word for cunt
DeleteYes, it is.
Deletewhy
DeleteBecause I wrote above "Yes, it is.".
DeleteWhy else would it be?
not that
DeleteNot what?
DeleteSorry. I'm not funny. I'll just shut up : )
DeleteTOok you long enough to figure that out, K@!
DeleteKAT has always reminded me of Bite Me. Bite Me took on different names over time iirc. Green eyes, ge, kat. Perhaps smartie and stay smart. Alter as well? I can't recall them all. I thought A and Bite me got along at some point. Maybe xk can shed some light over this since she read the archives not long ago. I wonder how long did that take, to read the archives? But I digress.
ReplyDeleteIf that is the case, bite me claims to be from australia. One thing for sure is that she has a xenophobic streak. Or perhaps i should downgrade this to her being prejudiced.
She also has this recurring this about telling people they are not a sociopath as if it is an insult. Others do to on this site, but it feels like she wants to be most sociopathic of all. She absolutely hates when people think of her as a narcissist. At least A can take it and acknowledges it. I believe this was not the case a few years back right A? Some people evolve. ME is changing, so has puppy basket over time, both in different directions, both trying to get to be better human beings. A daily struggles with relapses. But hey relapses happen. We are all humans.
Yes now I remember the green eyes/bite me.
DeleteI think she also went by Kat too. I can understand her posts and I believe she got along with A.
But this Kat lady don't sound like green eyes/bite me. Her lingo is just different than the other one.
Did "XK" turn into "KAT"???
DeleteRight now, my guess is KAT is in Australia.
She definitely has a "xenophobic/prejudiced" streak.
~Vegas
Yes. Yes, she did.
Deletewhen she was XK she also expressed misogynistic views and avoids answering what her gender is
Deleteno she introduced herself as a female in her first post. what misogynistic views?
Delete"Did "XK" turn into "KAT"???"
DeleteYou knew that. You're all so disingenuous. Good night, sweet ladies, good night .
And as for your protestations about North, Vegas, you, my friend, are a cry bully.
DeleteOld and Wise, I find it almost inconceivable that after being here so long, you might confuse Kat with Green Eyes. They are not the same poster, of that I am absolutely certain. I suspect the blog's new, downgraded Kat may be Smartie. They have similar posting styles, and this Kat appears only nominally less uptight.
DeleteBut however much I find her to be tedious, she does not strike me as xenophobic.
You're not very perceptive, are you?
As for me- you may see me as a narcissist, just so long as you acknowledge that I'm BIGGEST narc of all, yo! ;)
Otherwise, the shame you induce might cause me to regress, and self-identify as a depressed, co-dependent nanny goat.
You don't want to be responsible for distorting my self-image, do you?
Yes we do A :) But you already sound like that. How vulnerable of you ❤️
DeleteI sound like a depressed, co-dependent nanny goat?
DeleteI've been called many things by many people, but that is truly a first. :)
Now we can add cowardly along with imperceptive to the list of pejoratives that apply to you, anonymouse.
O&W etc,
DeleteShedding light here 8-)
I'm none of the above. LOL.
Let's just say none of you have a future at either the FBI, your local police force, or especially as a profiler on Criminal Minds.
No xenophobia and no respect for the USA or other places I've ever lived. I told you O&W when you asked what I 'identified' as; ie. the label you choose to use is clinically meaningless.
I know considerably more about my personality traits than y'all so it's a bit weird reading what you people assume about them; weird but interesting. Info point: One can be more psychopathic than someone else, but it's more a case of which bits are more elevated than other bits, and it isn't any kind of competition.
As far as the writing style goes, judging from the suggested options as to who I might have been once, far away and long ago 8-), since I mirror what people present [because that's what 'we' do, O&W, LOL], it'll probably never stay the same in any two threads.
I read very fast.
Hope that helps.
Q: was that last phrase me being sarcastic, helpful, passive-aggressive, amused, straightforward? See, difficult to tell, without using your own assumptions about someone's emotional state.
Again, hope that helps rather than confuses.
helps
Deleteit's which bits
Deleteshow&tell not available to the public. One only.
DeleteMirror mirror on the wall,
ReplyDeleteWho is the most sociopathic of all...
A narcissist could potentially construct his personality around being a sociopath, isn't that right?
While we do share traits there are ways to distinguish. Narcs cannot differentiate between themselves and their food. Narcs still have feelings though they have the emotional stability of a toddler. Narcs cannot ever admit they are wrong. We don't LIKE to, but we can. Narcs actually believe their own lies while we understand that lies are tools. Narcs cannot let go of personality once they establish it. They cannot walk away and reinvent like we do. They are invested to the point that they will self destruct if reveled. I am not sure that Narcs "construct" their personalities the same way we do. The problem with getting more info on how Narcs think is that they, unlike a decent portion of socios, are unwilling to be honest about what they are. Well not just unwilling, I don't believe they are capable.
DeleteNarcs cannot even admit things are knowable beyond what they know.
DeleteI agree: I don't think they are capable; it's such a rigid construction, bound right through the fabric of their minds. It becomes their only reality.
rigid
Deleteb&c imma rename you "echo"mkay?
Delete..ame you "echo"mkay
Deleteyes
Deleteyes
DeleteTell me more about this “conscience” you speak of…
ReplyDeleteIt’s actually something I’ve struggled to understand: what is “conscience”?
I sometimes regret the outcomes of my actions. This can range from, “well, that didn’t work out like I hoped” to “FUCK!!! That’s a hell of a mess to deal with!” and just about anything in between. I might even mourn the loss of the people and connections and things that are broken or opportunities lost. In some instances I feel anger towards myself for not following my own “moral compass” - the internal narrative is usually along the lines of, “I am such an idiot!!!” because I “knew better.” I might even have some anxiety about it – especially if I think I’ve gotten away with something, but I think I might be found out.
But I don’t think that’s the same thing as conscience – at least not from the conversations I’ve had on the topic. First off, it’s all about “me” – my mess, my self critique, my loss, my anger or fear. It has little to do with other people and their concerns (at least not beyond, blowback). What others tell me about it involves feelings I can’t relate to – maybe because the requisite affective empathy isn’t strong enough in my case.
So, tell me, how does one “form a conscience”?
Interesting. I think of a conscience as being innate, but it probably is not. It is likely formed by a continuous series of rewards and punishment during the formative years. I truly believe the main difference between socios and non is that socios are missing their emotional memory.
DeleteI am convinced they feel emotions but very fleetingly. I remember a post by puppy basket where she mentions crying her eyes out during animated features. Perhaps it is because the emotions are condensed in a short period of time?
Can you recall any emotions? Meaning can you make yourself feel an emotion that you experienced in the past?
A conscience makes you automatically recall emotions, positive or negative, before after and during particular actions, thoughts, speech, etc. It must reside in the mamellian Brain.
Perhas in the case of sociopaths they have to use they neocortex to analyze the situation first before they talk and act if they want to be high functioning. The use of formulae or a set of questions has been talked about before. A prosthetic conscience born in the neocortex, type of thing. Also this may be related to the fact that a sociopath usually takes a split secomd more than normals to answer questions.
It may be innate in some people, as it is innately absent in others(psychopaths) to whom it might've been passed down by parents? When on the other side the sociopath blocks the feelings because they’ve been proven in early childhood, possibly due to trauma or just no being taught(?), to not have been beneficial.
DeleteYes there is a layer of reality which isnt there. The emotions are fleeting and as described in a past post, like a switch which turns on and off. It turns off quickly and it isn't there for the next time when very likely it isnt beneficial to feel. But it is turned off in every day life. When we see objects just as humans we wont make connections to feelings. It’s like tons of strangers you might see at the metro some times and think they look interesting but then not remember any of their faces again.The memory, the connections made, is cognitive and not affectionate. I personally can make myself feel an emotion. But in general I don’t by default.
This is why some sociopaths prefer to form and use their own set of rules and this way teach themselves a series of reward and punishment. It’s not always working great for me. I personally am not getting used to it its just something I might and might not do for some periods of time.
-VN
"But I don’t think that’s the same thing as conscience – at least not from the conversations I’ve had on the topic. First off, it’s all about “me” – my mess, my self critique, my loss, my anger or fear. "
DeleteI think it is the same. It's dissonance, an indication that we might need to act to resolve an internal conflict of goals right where the rubber hits the road in our social interactions. Keeping our social place is always an important goal.
OldAndWise suggests the main difference between socios and neurotypicals is lack of emotional memory and I have come to a similar point. It explains so much of the different experience of self, different learning patterns (lack of regard for negative consequences), tendency to boredom, superficial connections to others.
As for "conscience", the dissonance a neurotypical feels is flavoured by emotional connections and empathy but from what you described, HLHaller, the mechanism and purpose is the same: prepare to make reparation/repair or defend.
Can it be constructed? Yes it can when we adopt a set beliefs. They become added to the heuristic and might override our natural sense and inclinations; a prosthetic as A and OldAndWise term it. This was the case for my entire life and it left me in a painful, painful place. This is why I now reject externally imposed codes and relax fully into my own judgement. As an adult organism, I'm a successful enough life form to trust myself.
@VN your comment was very interesting to read.
HLHaller-
DeleteI do not think that you necessarily need feelings or affective empathy, to "form a conscience".
I think that one only has to "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you"...
~Vegas
VN-
Delete"It’s like tons of strangers you might see at the metro some times and think they look interesting but then not remember any of their faces again.The memory, the connections made, is cognitive and not affectionate."
When I realized that it is possible that my husband is a sociopath, I began trying to "see" what the world looked like, through his eyes. You described exactly, what I imagined it to be...
~Vegas
I think there is some misleading about this. You all do define "conscience" as something only regarding yourself. But that is not how it "feels" like. And how it is within this.
Delete"But I don’t think that’s the same thing as conscience – at least not from the conversations I’ve had on the topic. First off, it’s all about “me” – my mess, my self critique, my loss, my anger or fear."
OldandWise is right with a few things he says here. Yes, if conscience hits you, you are thinking about your self critique and your mistakes... but you miss the reasoning behind it. Conscience has nothing to do with bringing urself into a better position, it instead is about to bring somebody else into a better position. If you hurt somebody and recognize that, conscience will make neurotypical people to feel how much you have hurt this person and knowing that you have done will increase this feeling. So yes, this is about your mistakes, but its especially about what your mistakes did with others. Conscience is there to make you regret, not what you have done wrong for yourself but what you have done wrong for somebody else. Conscience is what makes you trying to undo this mistake so that the others can feel better again.
North describes this more accurate as far as i can judge about that.
The next things I want to talk about are from Vegas.
"I think that one only has to "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you"..."
That is not completely right. I mean, yes thats part of conscience and that could be a simple rule for it, but conscience is even more. It is aswell "do unto others, how they do unto others".
The definition of conscience is "to know about the good and bad of your actions".
So it is by far not only regarding yourself, it is esepecially your actions in the context of what they have caused to others. Was it good or bad? And trying to minimize the bad outcomes for others, that is conscience.
It's almost impossible to do more harm to oneself in any other way than by harming others. You may have a "right" to do as you please with yourself and forgive yourself at will but you have no right to hurt another and cannot forgive yourself for doing so.
DeleteThat's why a healthy conscience makes you feel more regretful & guilty when you hurt others rather than yourself. It is actually helping YOU more than the other by preventing you from doing that which is most detrimental to your humanity. You diminish your empathy by hurting others (and not attempting to make amends) and gradually become more psychopathic.
All good fodder for thought – one of the reasons I enjoy this forum.
DeleteThe notion of emotional memory is an interesting one I will have to give some consideration. I do think my emotional life is quieter and less complicated than other people, so it may be that those feeling just don’t imprint as strongly. I don’t always have feelings, but when I do, they aren’t too complicated. You could say I’m happiest when I’m not feeling anything.
To answer O&W’s questions, yes, I can recall emotions and I can make myself feel all sorts of emotions – but there’s a deliberate element; I’m deciding how to feel about it and then feeling that way. It’s one of the things that I find so exhausting about being around most people – they need that empathic response. Being “authentic” makes most people uncomfortable –
Anon 3:52 seems to understand my question best, however. It’s the feeling what others are feeling and incorporating the feeling/experience that I find elusive. It’s the bad feeling for others suffering that I have trouble with. If I meant to do something that makes them unhappy, I’m pleased that I achieved my goal; if I didn’t mean to make them feel bad, I’m annoyed with myself for getting it wrong (however it happened). But, I find their expressions of emotion messy and annoying more than “sharing” them.
As to good/evil or right/wrong – those are very cognitive concepts for me…
Anon352 says it well:
DeleteConscience is there to make you regret, not what you have done wrong for yourself but what you have done wrong for somebody else. Conscience is what makes you trying to undo this mistake so that the others can feel better again.
How do we learn it though? We are not born with it, are we? Why is it that something unconscionable in one society can be viewed as heroic in another? Why is it that some people never develop one as hhaler and others on this site describe? Is it too late to develop one in adulthood? It is beneficial to coalesce a group of individuals, ie a society, but how do you convince a person that does not have a Conscience that it is beneficial to them as an individal? Is it?
"how do you convince a person that does not have a Conscience that it is beneficial to them as an individal? Is it?"
DeleteExcellent, excellent question.
I still think empathy and conscience are personal safety mechanisms: they keep us connected to the tribe. There's nothing inherently noble about our feelings about what we think others feel.
Lots of us are wired for collaboration / connection and we inherently don't like to see others damaged. But as I say, this is not praiseworthy; it's only how we are wired.
Some of us are shocked to find sociopaths are not wired this way. It's easy to blame them for being unfair, but in reality we all behaving according to how our personal organism has adapted to its environment given our genetic inheritance.
What we label conscience is the emergence of patterned feelings, usually responding to predictions our brains have made based on beliefs.
Here's an example (easy one): a very senior colleague was pushing his point. I thought differently and pushed back. We both got pig-headed and felt uncomfortable where we had previously been building a wonderful relationship. I felt bad for pushing him as work had even treating him very unfairly in recent times. I also felt pissed that he wouldn't listen. Underneath these feelings were two competing drivers: I wanted to be recognised as contributing and I wanted to support him. When I figured out what my feelings were really about, it was very simple to design an appropriate course and we were sweet the next day.
It's a simple example but I think it's a really powerful illustration of what happens when we recognise there's nothing magical about feelings or empathy: they are just messengers from parts of ourselves to the "steering" part of ourselves.
*behave
Delete**work had been treating him
One thing I find very interesting and absolutely contrary to human evolution is despite how selfish and ego centric a sociopath is there is something within them that betrays their actual self. In other words its as if everyone-including Themselves-are disposable. Sociopaths so many times don't know-and I personally don't think they are Faking-why they do things that are incredibly self destructive. Everyone makes mistakes but sociopaths cannot learn per say from their mistakes. It is the sort of serial self destructive/self sacrificing behavior that seems contradict the laws of evolution.
DeleteIt seems that is part of their mechanism. Would anyone do things that violated their own self preservation if they were aware?
DeleteLaws are only our way of trying to understand and control our environment. Laws are only models; that's why scientists change them when contradictory data is available.
DeleteIt's always better to look at the evidence and adapt the model than to squeeze evidence to fit an extant understanding.
Sociopaths exist with their constellations of characteristics; there's no use questioning that. It's better to understand how they operate as best we can then update our understanding of them and of the human condition overall than to use old conceptions that don't do the data justice.
Selection only requires an individual pass on its genes and adequately protect its offspring. Sociopaths evidently provide sufficient advantage to their offspring in enough cases for the type to exist in the species. This is all given based on the simple data of their frequency in the population and the heritability of the relevant constellation of traits.
"We are irrational beings capable of rational thought" ~ Christopher S Hyatt
We all do things all the time without knowing why. Yet it's all probabilistic and contextual. We are organic, adaptive, learning physical processes. Rationality as a guiding force of life is the illusion. We are bundles of neuropatterns.
Socially, intent is important.
DeleteBut evolution doesn't give a flying fuck... What counts is who is fucking whom because that's how babies are made. The great benefit of sexual reproduction is diversity. We're just a diverse species.
All of this becomes simple when we stop considering humanity to be a special animal. We're just animals; they same mechanisms operate.
North I see what your saying. We are all animals. Humans "believe " they are at the top of the food chain. Sociopaths see others as prey. But in a strange way sociopaths are Prey-meaning they are t their own worst enemy. I know that isn'textremely scientific but sociopaths seem to be a strange mix of human and host. Predator and prey.
DeleteNorth I know I tend to get weird. ;-) perhaps all that separates US-socios and nons-is the illusion that we are different. This illusion is practically unknown to nons but it seems to be a driver behind sociopaths and a reason for them to feel superior. I don't know. There is still an iron clad veil that exists. I do know there are biological differences. A brain that seems a bit like someone who has done enormous amounts of Meth. Things firing every which way. I know you are very aware of all of the differences and that's not exactly my point. I'm not exactly sure what it is. :-) it's just very strange how such a different species can exist within another..
DeleteMaybe learning more about each other will cause us to speed up some type of evolution and meet in the middle. I think one of the most notable things I feel is a change in my thinking. I wonder what it might look like on an mri for example. Before and after.
DeleteAnd if I seem a bit preachy it's more because I can't overlook the similarities. The formulated thinking. The lying. These are things that seem to be key in holding sociopaths "prisioner" to themselves. We all are capable of liberating ourselves.
DeleteI guess what I mean is if you regard humans as prey and disposable doesn't that also apply to the sociopath himself. In that case there truly are no corners. No limits because self preservation isn't necessarily a priority. This majes
DeleteIt's cool to keep questioning until your mind is satisfied and the dissonance resolved - no need to apologise for persistence in that endeavour. Our brains ask because they want to learn, it's as simple as that.
Delete"but sociopaths seem to be a strange mix of human and host."
I kinda get this. I think when **-* makes himself available for me to communicate with him, that's a communication in itself. That's not a direct analogy; I'm trying to indicate that often they assume power they have actually ceded. It's a charade.
"it's just very strange how such a different species can exist within another.."
Yes, this is what blindsided me (and probably most NTs) and this is the key question we are trying to resolve. Why didn't we know about these intra-species predators? If we knew, we'd have had defences. And really, this is why the "sociopaths are evil" mentality never cut the mustard for me; it was never a sufficient answer because the good v evil paradigm of thinking we find, for example, in religion, simply didn't give me the tools to recognise or handle **-* in the first place.
My process for understanding starts with the position that the constellation of traits works: it produces successful (biologically speaking) individuals quite often enough. From there, we can understand their strong functions and how they might act as proxies for the mental apparatuses they lack. This gives us a lot of information about the functions of our own apparatuses and rips to shreds a number of assumptions we make about the human condition.
But that's only my process, designed to address my questions in a way that satisfies me. We all have our own lens on the problems as they have presented to us.
"Maybe learning more about each other will cause us to speed up some type of evolution and meet in the middle. I think one of the most notable things I feel is a change in my thinking. I wonder what it might look like on an mri for example. Before and after."
I've also changed significantly over the past two years.
I wonder if ME could share more about her changes with therapy? I wonder how harnessing neuroplasticity in particular directions might be beneficial to psychopaths and what the hard limits might be. Whether they would perceive value in it. ME experimented with neurofeedback with interesting results.)
"And if I seem a bit preachy it's more because I can't overlook the similarities. The formulated thinking. The lying. These are things that seem to be key in holding sociopaths "prisioner" to themselves. We all are capable of liberating ourselves."
I agree: our prisons are in our own mind. Often we have no clue a bigger world exists and this is likely for sociopaths, too. We all chart our own course, though, and there are strong incentives for an organism to maintain its current state of it's sufficient for existence. There's a huge overhead in change, not to mention uncertain results if attempted. There are efficiencies in retaining current patterns.
The human brain efficiently seeks outcomes. ~ Art Papay
The most important outcome is survival right now.
That's how I see it and I reckon that's why humans feel inertia over real self-change.
I believe change is so overdue. The shooting in Orlando reminds me of that. It is iincredibly frustrating and tragic. It makes me think of the strange fascination the sociopath I knew had with mass murder. They didn't reveal it till the end. I find it so chilling now.
DeleteYes it's very tragic what happened. For me personally this one felt like a double whammy.
DeleteEvents like this coupled with an off the narcissist for president (Trump) are the worst thing that can happen to this country, and the world. Trump can care less that the man was bipolar and obviously in psycho mode when he did what he did. He uses any opportunity he can get to win over clueless people. It's tragic and shameful.
North & Anon
Delete"The lying. These are things that seem to be key in holding sociopaths "prisoner" to themselves."
May I make a suggestion. Stop focusing on lying, and 'being your own worst enemy' stuff. Those are only aspects of low-functioning psychopathic individuals who probably are of average IQ, low socio-economic groups, and bad parents. That is a sub-set only. You gotta stop assuming that's all there is. Think bell curve distributions. You'd have a much better chance at understanding, if you stopped to question those stereotypes. You are tying yourselves into painful knots because you're only considering the 'less successful'. And actually, in other environments, they would actually be the more successful. Your thinking needs to broaden, if you want an answer that makes evolutionary sense.
Stop focusing on the 'failures', within current Western societies. Think what will be successful, fifty years from now, if it helps. What is successful in Libya, Lebanon, Mexico, Russia etc. Not in your current back yard.
And consider Jonaid's comment above. Think what will happen to your back yard if Trump the successful narcissist gets power. You might be glad of a few 'interesting' people in your neighbourhoods after a few years of Trump.
Read what's actually written in my comments again before bothering to address me with your inane furphies.
DeleteSociopaths lie. Successful ones. Ones in prison. Ones that shoot up nightclubs. Ones that change their identity every five seconds. They lie. What would happen if they stopped? That's all I'm questioning.
DeleteAnon,
DeleteNorth seems to be having a bad hair day, so:
"They lie. What would happen if they stopped? That's all I'm questioning."
Fair enough; I realised that. I'm just questioning the validity of your question, is all. What I suggested is why are you focusing on sociopaths lying - when everybody lies, all the time. What is so worth focusing on there, when everybody lies, just like them? Probably for exactly the same reasons. What would happen if all normals stopped lying, for example.
And BTW I don't lie, which is why your assumption is a bit odd to me.
North, I have no idea what is your problem currently. Perhaps you are regressing, hopefully temporarily. However, being regarded as inane by you is both a relief and a compliment.
DeleteK you are special. I love it that you don't lie. Nice loophole.
Delete"Nice loophole."
Delete??? say again?
Yes Anon, they keep telling me I'm special. Probably because they expect me to go around lying, but I just can't be bothered. So they go on thinking it's just an anomaly, not their mistake.
Life's very tough for the truthful. Maybe that's why everybody lies so much.
I'm sure you the one exception. Congratulations!
DeleteSince everyone has covered the what is a conscience questions pretty well I will address the Unasked question of why socios don't have one. Yes it has to do with not having a emotional memory but it goes back to how we were raised. We all grew up in a Narc household. This means we were punished arbitrarily for things we did, things we did not do, if we had siblings the same behavior would merit differing punishments. We were punished for THINKING WRONG (contrary to whatever our Narc parent was thinking that day, which could change five minutes later) and most important we were punished for FEELING.
DeleteLet me reiterate that last one. Feelings were punished and ridiculed. Why don't I have a conscience? How the fuk was I supposed to develop one when the rules to what was right and wrong changed on an hourly basis? Lying is a defense mechanism when you are raised like this. The truth is punished so lies become the norm.
I still don't have a conscience. I do have formula/codes to keep me from doing things and to fix things when I fuck up now though. Here is the fun part though. My fake conscience seems to work better at times then most NT's real one. I know why. Mine is proactive. I run my filter PRIOR to taking action. I don't require a conscience because I don't act like an ass up front. Conscience only works after the fact. Do bad, feel bad. That helps no one. If you examine your behaviors and prevent yourself from doing bad before the fact you DON'T NEED a conscience. Just sayin
Puppy baskets I'm not a sociopath but I also grew up with narc parents and I experienced the same treatment. I do understand how confusing that is and I believe it's one reason I was easy prey for a sociopath. I understand why you would need to use formulas and I'm glad it works for you. I do have to say for me personally a conscience is what I experience before I do something. Not after. That's guilt. All I'm suggesting is reconsidering ideas that may Benifit people such as yourself. It certainly couldn't hurt.
Delete"Yes Anon, they keep telling me I'm special. Probably because they expect me to go around lying, but I just can't be bothered. So they go on thinking it's just an anomaly, not their mistake.
DeleteLife's very tough for the truthful. Maybe that's why everybody lies so much"
Kat, when we are discussing our experiences of others and talking about the way we make sense of them, we are not levelling blame at you or your kind.
There's no need to take it personally.
It's a simple fact that our species has not as yet adequately accounted for neurodiversity in our conceptions of ourselves.
This is always an adventure for me. I learnt a very long time ago that blame is a shortcut, a short circuit.
Please don't write any more nonsense about us having problems. It demonstrates you don't understand the process we go through; and while that's understandable, we are posing you no threat and doing you no harm, so you could either observe and learn more about the human condition or go on your merry way.
I hope this is quite clear. Please stop assuming. If you are not sure, ask questions. If you are not interested, skip the posts. If you disagree, at least read the comment first and make a reasonable argument.
As it is, you're coming across as either a troll (which you've assured me you are not intending) or as reactive. This post is to address the latter possibility.
"most important we were punished for FEELING.
DeleteLet me reiterate that last one. Feelings were punished and ridiculed"
Exactly this! Puppy Basket, I've had very deep experiences this week and your posts are helping me crystallise my understandings of them.
When I have feelings that aren't pure happiness or joy (which were allowed), what I always feel first is FEAR. I feel scared.
So I scan the environment and judge there's nothing to be afraid of. What am I scared of? No idea.
I have learnt to simply release that nervous E energy and let it flow and *eventually* the real feeling emerges. These days it takes about 30 minutes.
Yesterday, I figured out why I felt scared. I was afraid to have feelings because I would be punished for them, or as I got older, to JUSTIFY, to rationalise them.
Easier not to have feelings at all. That's what the fear was: kill your feelings.
And that's how I squashed and diminished myself in order to survive my childhood.
But I don't need to be like that anymore.
Thanks Puppy Basket for sharing your experience, journey and reflections. I do think we can create fulfilling lives for ourselves, regardless of history and genetic inheritance.
nothing to fear but fear
Deleteso funny, isn't b and c. Have you ever stared fear right in the face? It dissolves into the deepest calm and awareness. That was one of my very first steps forward.
DeleteAnon 10:26
DeleteMy parents are narcs, too.
It's great to break the pattern. I feel there's so much grief inside gradually working itself out as I create new paths.
Did you know your parents were narcs? I didn't figure it out until I knew **-* was a sociopath. Then it all clicked, and in sharing that with my best friend, he realised his mother was a narc, too. It explained our strange bond: we were providing the validation our opposite-sex parents hadn't provided. Needless to say, that's another relationship that broke. Everything, everything is changing for the better, but it's slow and there are many tears.
yes
DeletePuppy I have a couple of questions:
DeleteWere you a pathological liar earlier in life?
What would you recommend is the best way to build trust & help someone with your background who still hasn't matured like you have?
Thanks.
Glad to help North. My brother turned out as having most mental diseases at some point in his life. Those that managed to survive narc parents without becoming sociopaths are fascinating to me.
Delete@jonaid Yes, yes I was a pathological liar. That was the hardest habit to break. The best way to help others with their sociopathy is to be another socio who is "recovering". Much like Alcoholics Anonymous we need someone who has life experience with what we are going through to be able to respect their views. We learn by example. For a NT dealing with us you can probably NEVER completely trust us. Just don't. You can get them to trust you by keeping everything in I messages, calling them on their bullshit, learning their tells and understanding that this is how they are. Accept them for what they are. Let them know you are OK with them being a sociopath. Then establish some boundaries. Also first and foremost make SURE you are dealing with a sociopath and not a NARC. The easy test is when they tell a lie you can disprove with facts. Do so, then if they accept and change their view then you are dealing with a sociopath, if they keep arguing and getting more and more upset and then get mad. That is a NARC run, run far run fast cut them out of your life. You can't help. Pray for them and everyone they are associated with because that is all you can do for them.
If they are a sociopath, get them ME's book, it really helps. Then direct them to other resources like this blog. Encourage them to come on and join the discussion. DON'T try to sway them with religion, emotional, or moral arguments. Those get us into a rather reactive mode. Detached logic is your friend.
If they tell you they enjoy messing with NT minds suggest they try and elevate others instead since that would be more of a challenge to their intellect. Suggest they give it a try for a change of pace and as an intellectual exercise. This is a starting point. I am heading to sleep and will think more on it and have some more suggestions for you. Oldandwise, North and superchick are your best resources here for this too. They all are in your position and have a lot of experience. I can give you what works with me with the socios that are my group of friends but as I am one of them my approach will of course be different than yours.
If you have any specific situations let me know.
good length
DeleteNorth
Delete"There's no need to take it personally." ??????????
You know what is wrong with this sentence.
"Please don't write any more nonsense about us having problems."
How many months have you posted into here. About the weather?
Talk on. Talk on. About you. 'Us'. Them. At them. Why not.
Puppy
DeleteThank you for that. It confirms much of what I thought. Unfortunately I think I'm dealing with narcs on my end...at least most of them anyway.
North I remember thinking my parents were really difficult. I'm sure most kids think that but they were really,really difficult. I remember a councilor when I was 17 telling me I was the scapegoat and I had no idea what that meant. I felt a lot like that scene in rebel without a cause where he screams your tearing me apart.
DeleteI don't bother to say I have a conscience. I have a set of rules that fluctuate by my needs or desires. Help or destroy is all but a whim as to what I think will keep my attention, or benifit me most in the future. That is not a conscience.
ReplyDeleteconscience leads to emotions, and emotions are best avoided in most situations. Better to act on logic or information most of the time, and turn on the emotion only when it is needed.
Anon @ 8:51-
DeleteWould you share an example, of when you would find it necessary, to "turn on emotion"???
~Vegas
Can't speak for Anon, but for me "turn(ing)on emotion" is necessary when I need to appear more NT than I am - feeling and expressing emotions for the benefit of my audience. Emotional indifference doesn't play well in most situations.
DeleteI can't manufacture emotions, but I can pretend. I do it frequently.
DeleteVegas... Imagine someone telling you about a personal problem or tragedy. Do you actually feel bad for them? Intellectually, I can sympathize with someone, but I don't actually feel a damn thing. From what I understand, most folks have an emotional connection with the people they're supposed to be close to.
I have emotions; they're just fleeting and shallow.
DeleteI have a conscience; it just doesn't bother me to violate it.
I think it is more for me that I have adapted myself to school my body language and features to show the proper reactions to fake empathy/emotions. Most people seem to think I am Zen in my reactions if that makes any sense. I appear sympathetic but not attached. Not sure I am explaining this well.
DeleteI think I lucked out in having "kind features". Strangers even gravitate to me, if I am in a store and a person in the store uniform is standing right next to me other customers will come to me for help instead of them. Strangers for no reason will start telling me their life stories and ask for advice. (Yes I find this hilarious) I can modulate my voice to sound like the most caring person on the planet. My accent will match yours in moments of speaking with me.My body language will be welcoming and I will read you like a book in seconds, and compliment you on something. In moments I will be your best friend. I will listen inventively to everything you say and read from your body language what you are not saying. You will go away from a interaction with me thinking you just met a person who thinks the world of you. I feel not a thing the whole time. I make peoples day's a little better just because I have the power to do so and it aligns with my code.
I am not exactly turning my emotions on. I really have no desire to do that anymore. Sometimes when I am listening to music or watching a show it happens. I am curious what triggers that. If anyone has an answer let me know. The funny thing about me is that when I am in my resting state, when I am concentrating on something and slip into the "real me", I have been told my default expression is "serial killer". Most people who have seen me like that are freaked out so I have to be careful in public and remind myself to smile occasionally and keep a less neutral expression on my face.
"ost people seem to think I am Zen in my reactions if that makes any sense. I appear sympathetic but not attached. Not sure I am explaining this well. "
DeleteYou sound very much like **-* in this respect. People, including me, leave interactions with him feeling very calm and open. Others have commented that he is very Zen.
This created an example for me, a vision. In my case, I am learning to attach to myself; this means specifically that I trust and rely on myself to solve my own problems as an adult organism. It's very liberating to depend only on oneself and means I can create mutual aid relationships. Detachment then for me, is actually self-attachment rather than blunting or diminishing of attachment. Rather than looking to external resources to have needs met as a child does, I search for and utilise my own resources for emotional comfort, noting my feelings are messages intended for ME. This allows me to take meaningful action in making requests or collaborating with others.
It remains to be seen how **-* responds to this. One can of course tell him things are different, but as with most learnings, I judged he needed to experience the change to comprehend it. And I needed to enact it. These are words to describe my process retrospectively, of course. In reality, it was an organic, buzzing emergence involving my whole brain, a positing of my being through my full capacities. I was surprised it played out as I felt it would; but these things should surprise me less and less. Things play out well because our brains are marvellous predictive machines and we have so much capacity if only we get out of our own way.
DeleteTime will tell. I asked him to think about it. I suppose he thought about it because a few minutes later, he said he would. He's like that; if I give him something unexpected, he responds when he's ready to. Sometime minutes, sometimes weeks later.
Puppy Basket, you wrote below that you NEED rewiring. I feel the same, and it's by doing these sorts of things, by really embracing what it is my being wants and trusting its capacity to fulfil those needs that I posit and create the person I want to be.
*I asked him to think about it. I suppose he considered this because a few minutes later, he said he would think about it.
Deletepeoples day's what
Deletebut that's right
DeleteBitter and cranky you are so
DeleteTourettes
DeleteThe sociopath I knew was as zen as a greased piglet on five dollar crack. The one I can't quite figure out was either the most zen person or
Deleteperhaps they were just a socioempath
DeleteThe one I can't quite figure out is extremely zen and I really admire that about them. And the sociopath seems Zen until something doesn't go their way and then out comes the greased piglet. They have worked very hard to make sure things go their way.
DeleteNorth do you think that now that **_* is aware that you are aware of his games that his games might evolve in a way that you wouldn't predict or do you even see that as a possibility?
DeleteI experienced that too north. Responding when they are ready to unexpected things. They were so certain about things it really thru them off it seems to me. Its interesting to me how their game might evolve thru their own evolution and or adaptation.
Delete"Zen until something doesn't go their way and then out comes the greased piglet."
DeleteGreased piglet, that's funny. I think it's a good idea to see others' behaviour from some distance in this way: another's behaviour gives us information about them and the way they interact with the world. We need not take it personally nor take responsibility for it. That's what I liked about your description.
I saw **-* upset / angry only a few times and each time he went silent and dark and got away to be by himself. Perhaps because he's older and has learnt. He has a relaxed personality type, too, ISFP.
"his games might evolve in a way that you wouldn't predict or do you even see that as a possibility?"
This is a question in my mind, for sure. The ability to predict is essential and desired; often it's preferred over data so that we take things for granted. So I'm remaining open to data and my simple policy is to interact with him when the energy is good and refrain when it's bad. I understood I needed to give him an experience to show him what I meant: that his tricks simply won't work, that they lead to resentment, that he relinquished his real and raw power of attraction over me.
I don't think games will work at all. I don't need him, I am simply enjoying him.
How he adapts, that is an interesting question. Things were already very different - no promises, no flattery.
My sense is that manipulation is the only way he knows, it's like he had to throw that into the mix. I opened a different door for him; with full awareness it may not interest him at all. But I wouldn't take that personally.
We are two adult organisms that want to copulate. It's as simple as that. We go about securing that activity differently, we experience the interaction differently. That interests me.
What is a conscience? A conscious stems from goodness. If you can peel back the layers of nastiness and ego you will find a conscience.
ReplyDelete"Correctly" aka "My way of thinking."
ReplyDeleteThink of conscience as the universal law, the constitution, that is imprinted in the human genome. It's the "backup" that M.E. mentions that if only one could find and re-download. It is the uncorrupted soul. That is why it reminds you when you start going off, and it punishes you for violations (guilt, sadness, regret...) and rewards you for abiding by it (serenity, inner peace, sense of ease & comfort, love etc. etc.).
ReplyDeleteSome people attempt to do away with the original version and try to re-write it in a manner that fits ONLY them, or MOSTLY them as opposed to them AND everyone else. They can do a lot of damage to the original version, but they can never rid themselves of it completely and they can never rewrite a better version. Every alternate version will lead to loss eventually, in this life (for most people) and in the next (for some...the worst of the bunch).
The real psycho is the one who knowingly decides to re-wire his conscience in a manner that suits him and only him, and thus inevitably leading to some harm (at least) to others. The rest of the sociopath spectrum is people who inherited and / or were somehow coerced into a partial re-wiring (coercion includes being denied your basic rights...unconditional love from parents for example).
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful:
Delete"And a soul and Him Who perfected it
And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it.
He is indeed successful who causes it to grow,
And he is indeed a failure who stunts it."
Qur'an 91: 7-10
Attempting to re-wire your original version is stunting it because you're denying it it's natural growth. Every emotion, every struggle, every pain eventually fades away and then there is relief and growth. Only the original version can grow, all other versions are like taking an exit off a highway that leads straight to your destination. It's impossible to find an alternative way when the destination is due north...every other way must eventually come back to the highway or leave you wandering forever.
I agree with your last para here, Jonaid. We grow in the direction of our natural alignment.
DeleteBut as explained earlier Jon that only works for NTs. I never had a base conscience to begin with since I was never taught a non fluctuating right from wrong. I have no base conscience to fix. I had to start from scratch. I am not improving on a base I am taking a spiritual path now because I want to. We are not born with a conscience. We are taught right from wrong as children and then told to feel bad if we mess up. To put ourselves in the place of others and feel what they feel. I am incapable of doing that so I have to rely on my codes and formulas. Dude I like what you have to say a lot but you still seem to think that sociopathy is some kind of life choice. As a sociopath I CAN and DO control my reactions and my actions, what I will never be able to do is feel anything about them at a meaningful level. It is all cerebral for me baby. I have choices about the path I take to deal with what I am. I don't have a choice to spontaneously grow a set of emotions. That died in me long ago. I don't really miss it or even want it back. I am at peace with what I am. But I understand my brain NEEDS to be rewired. My first impulse used to always be destruction. Myself, others, the whole world if I could. With many years of practice I now do good as a a first response most of the time. This has nothing to do with emotional growth and everything to do with spiritual growth. The amazing part is that as socios we CAN grow spiritually.
DeletePuppy:
DeleteI respect you a lot, agree with most of what you said here, and applaud you for struggling instead of succumbing to your destructive tendencies. I would really love to discuss these matters in person with someone like you...I don't care if you call yourself a socio or psycho or anything. I can tell you are honest & probably more blunt than most people (which I respect more than anything).
Having said all that, the reason why I think you disagree with me is because I'm not fully capable of outlining exactly what's in my mind in writing. I don't doubt for a second that you didn't and can't consciously choose to have emotions or empathy. Trust me I know I'm not an "empath" when it comes to feelings (I'm probably in the middle or even closer to the socio side) and my sexual orientation is and has been exclusively homosexual. "Choice" is something I take very seriously. We both inherited our shortcomings and flaws from people (parent(s) and upbringing) and it's THOSE people who I'm describing when I attack psychopathy. Someone starts this and that person DOES make a choice.
The reason I trust God (and not just believe in His existence) is because He judges by intentions only. If you're completely incapable of any empathy but you use your reason to do the right thing, your reward is far greater than the one who was compelled to by their emotions. Vice versa is true as well. I don't care for labels - you can say you're a Nazi & KKK sympathizer who loves to fantasize about rape...I'll only want to know HOW you ended up there and what are your intentions. That's what determines if you're a good person or not, not labels that anyone but God pins on you. That is why when I do use certain words (psychopathy...) I carefully define what I mean by it, precisely because there is no universally accepted definition.
Ah jon I see where you are coming from now. I think we were having a bit of a discord with terminology. That cleared things up a bit. Looking forward to talking more later.
DeletePuppy Basket,
DeleteWhether this sounds patronising or not [to him, which I hope not] I appreciate your kindness to Jonaid. He's been not well treated here, it's good that someone else realises he's really smart, but with occasional odd syntax and logic. He's worth explaining to. Thanks.
@ Jonaid: Don't get annoyed, I know it's rude to talk about you rather than to you, but PP's manner towards you was worthy of note. Makes a change.
Thank you for the kind words. If I were going to get annoyed by anyone's comments here I would not have used my real ID. Unlike psychos I actually do have a thick skin!
DeletePeace.
sweet
Deletehe is. 'it's what bits' response above
DeleteDear Sociopath World,
ReplyDeletePhilosophy is simply the act of speculation. Humans do it all the time. Psychonautical, scientific, epigenetics, religion. Take your pick.
Or . . . As Donny Brasco explained in the movie to the FBI, "Faah-get about it."
For those who do like to speculate, I recommend this article.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/09/forget-mindfulness-stop-trying-to-find-yourself-start-faking-it-confucius?
"Our thinkers would be sceptical of the existence of a true self, especially one you can discover in the abstract. They understood that we are multifaceted, messy selves who develop by looking outward, not inward. Our personalities are formed through everything we do: how we interact with others, our reactions to things, the activities we pursue. You don’t behave the same way when speaking to your mother, say, as when dealing with a junior colleague, your dentist, or a close friend. Each of us is a complicated being bumping up against other complicated beings all day. Each encounter draws out different aspects.Who we are consists of behaviour patterns and emotional ruts we’ve fallen into over time – but that means we also consist of numerous possibilities of what we can become."
"The problem with authenticity, he’d say, is that it’s not freeing, the way we believe it to be. Who is that authentic self you think you have discovered really? It’s a snapshot of you at this one moment in time. If you stay true to that self and allow it to become your guide, it constrains you. It doesn’t allow for the sort of growth you experience when you recognise that you are ever-changing."
"When you smile as if you’re not angry, or bite your tongue instead of lashing out you are faking it. It’s because those “as if” moments create a tiny break from reality that they are so valuable. We act “as if” we are different and our feelings are more mature. By doing so, we transform into someone who is kind and generous rather than someone exercising the right to express authentically honest but destructive feelings. As we complete these rituals again and again, letting our behaviour lead our feelings rather than the other way around, we become different – and better – over time."
Mr. Hyde
Well we develop by looking outward, sure, but you also need to look inward. You need to understand your emotions and make the best use out of them. They are as valid a piece of information as what your hear see smell, etc.
DeleteThe funny thing is that when you become the target of a sociopath, you have to do a lot of inward work. Understand those conflicting emotions he or she triggers in you. This is the only way to grow from the experience. If you look outward only, for support and for blame, you become a true victim and you get stunted in your internal growth, sometimes for many years. You become bitter and spend way too much negative energy hating the sociopath.
From my own experience and also from reading North and MachiavelanEmpath a couple of years back, it looks like it is a common theme. Self reflection is what helps.
I'd like to hear what vegas has to say about it. Vegas you do not behave like the usual cranky victim. Sure, you may have a trauma bond to your ex. But between recognizing and chosING to handle the trauma bond in the best way possible or becoming bitter and cranky, I choose the former.
Wonderful article, Mr Hyde!
DeleteThese ideas of a fluid complexity of being, of patterns of behaviour that can change, of crashing into other complex beings in coloured kaleidoscopic learning experiences fell out of the vast and ripping changes I underwent after discovering **-*.
It was pleasing to find resonance and wisdom in Chinese thought - I felt less alone and excited that these positions I came to very naturally held deep possibilities.
Pondering it now, I wonder the value of preferring focus on the current moment is the capacity then to be one's own being with less crystallisation, less definition. I think when we crystallise our concept of self, we create a much greater overhead when change becomes necessary. There is some benefit to crystallisation: efficiencies of patterned operation. But how much greater is the capacity to change easily and the ability to view the opportunity landscape with less constrained vision!
Yes, we are complex bundles of neuropatterns, learned responses applying in a new contexts. 'I think this' or 'I feel that' or 'I want this' - these are communications from neural centres with our neocortex The Great Verbaliser, giving voice to the realities we create from internal and external inputs. While we have multiple (legion, actually) "selves" in this sense, we can re-pattern and do so every time we learn something new.
The trick is to not attach to what we learn, what we have learned. Keep using it (for efficiency) until it doesn't work any longer, then find something that works better. Everything is in flux.
"The funny thing is that when you become the target of a sociopath, you have to do a lot of inward work. Understand those conflicting emotions he or she triggers in you. This is the only way to grow from the experience. If you look outward only, for support and for blame, you become a true victim and you get stunted in your internal growth, sometimes for many years. You become bitter and spend way too much negative energy hating the sociopath."
DeleteOh OldAndWise, this is so true!! It's such an important message! And you're right: being a victim is a choice.
OldAndWise-
Delete"The funny thing is that when you become the target of a sociopath, you have to do a lot of inward work. Understand those conflicting emotions he or she triggers in you. This is the only way to grow from the experience. If you look outward only, for support and for blame, you become a true victim and you get stunted in your internal growth, sometimes for many years. You become bitter and spend way too much negative energy hating the sociopath."
I completely agree.
On a trip to England/Ireland/Scotland, I found a plaque in a gift shop, that I love-it is a quote from Carl Jung:
Who Looks Outside
Dreams
Who Looks Inside
Awakens
~Vegas
OldAndWise-
Delete"Vegas you do not behave like the usual cranky victim."
Thank you, for the wonderful compliment!!!
"But between recognizing and chosING to handle the trauma bond in the best way possible or becoming bitter and cranky, I choose the former."
I choose the former, as well.:)
I see myself, not as "diminished", but rather-"enhanced".:)
~Vegas
@ Old&Wise,
DeleteI agree that self-reflection is an essential part of learning and maturing. But I have also seen, and participated in, too much inwardness, which easily turns into navel-gazing. Gazing into your own navel is similar to watching water go down a drain: It can suck in and down into a labyrinth of where only you exist. It can also lead to the false idea that you are the center of all that happens in your life, that somehow you command events outside of yourself via your reactions.
I do know that when I'm depressed for no apparent external reason, the worst thing I can do is brood about why I'm unhappy. Instead I follow a ritual: When depressed, DO. I clean, walk, do anything to become active and focused on the world outside of myself. Usually this works. I forget about myself, which in my experience is very liberating.
Another example: If, as often happens, someone makes me mad, I do my best not to focus on my anger (which leads to trouble). Instead, I focus on how the other person is responding, and try to filter their personal hate/disgust through the theater of the absurd, which sparks my humor and tolerance and often theirs. Later, when I have time to reflect, I examine what triggered my angry reaction.
As for MachiavellianEmpath, I always suspected she was M.E. Keeping track of alters on this site is impossible.
Mr. Hyde
@North,
Delete"Pondering it now, I wonder the value of preferring focus on the current moment is the capacity then to be one's own being with less crystallisation, less definition. I think when we crystallise our concept of self, we create a much greater overhead when change becomes necessary. There is some benefit to crystallisation: efficiencies of patterned operation. But how much greater is the capacity to change easily and the ability to view the opportunity landscape with less constrained vision!"
I agree. If we are who we are depending on who we are with, the only permanence of self we are left with is one that is dynamic and fluid. If that is the true core of the self, if the legion within us ebbs and flows according to our ability to adapt to any situation, then we are blessed with the infinite potential to grow in any direction.
Glad you enjoyed the article and hope you continue to share your thoughts on SW. Your journey interests me.
Mr. Hyde
Thanks Mr Hyde :)
DeleteMy navel's name is Gary. We go on long walks together and we both like yoga.
DeleteOn the beach, Anon? Do you hug trees or howl at the moon? Ahwooorh!!!
Deletewhy did you call him Gary?
DeleteI chose the latter
DeleteIt looked like a Gary.
Deleteah fair enough
DeleteHey bitter and cranky!
DeleteIt is absolutely your choice if you chose the latter. As long as you understand that you do have a choice. From what you hear and read on the Internet and elsewhere, people try to convince you that you not have that choice, that the sociopath has or will eventually "win".
Btw he wins when he succeeds in making you bitter and cranky. He loves it. He thrives on it.
I enjoy being bitter and cranky and no one can take that away from me
DeleteMr. Hyde, thank you fro sharing that loved the article. I try to always stay in the moment myself and I think that it is very freeing. Since I have no real core me, I recognized long ago that it was just another construct and let that go. I am what I am and recreate myself each moment. Living this way is freeing. I have a framework of behavior so who I am ends up being what I do.
DeleteSo many people seem so focused on what is in their own heads being who they are. Yet everyone they meet can only judge them by what they do. I know many people who think they are one thing and present themselves as the exact opposite to the world. We are our delusions if we do that.
Puppy Basket,
DeleteYour choice of language here intrigues me. I was pondering some very similar concepts yesterday and came to those exact words to describe myself: I AM.
Puppy Basket,
DeleteSo true -- many people focus on what's going on inside their own heads and hearts (they believe their feelings define who they are). It's weird to become too attached to a rigid definition of one's identity, one's thoughts or feelings -- you never know when circumstances may bring forth a hidden dynamic buried somewhere deep inside. It could be the urge to murder someone or to sacrifice oneself: the more conscious we are of our drives and patterns, the more detached we are from one's identity, the better our choices will be.
@North,
I like that: I am.
I think therefore I am. I want, therefore I am. It's all the same far as I can tell.
Mr. Hyde
to be or to not be
Deletesplit the infinitve
Deletethat's the answer
DeleteYes, Mr Hyde, we are ever-emerging processes; an awareness of our own patterns gives us information to steer that unfolding. And you are right: we can always surprise ourselves! And that's not so bad; there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so ;)
DeleteIt's all "risk management. The spinning of the given moment's scenarios. Pattern recognition."
spinning
DeleteNorth I think understanding is the key. I have had more than one experience with a sociopath. The first time I was very confused. I didn't hate them but the experience did affect me in that I was vulnerable to their game later on. I needed tounderstand what they were. I needed to have a reference. I'm not sure if it could have been avoided-if I could have understood what they were without experiencing it for myself. But I feel more like myself now. Just more aware.
ReplyDeleteI think that learning process (I can only really say for me) - even through subsequent vulnerability - is the opposite of victimhood. It's curiosity, crossing a human frontier, becoming through experiencing my own choices.
DeleteThat's how I came to be myself.
Experience is a brutal teacher. But you learn; by God you learn ~ Shadowlands
Experiencing a sociopath's targeting is a new frontier; it's entirely unknown, unimaginable territory, only sketchily mapped. The compasses we've previously succeeded with spun helplessly haywire - by these I mean predictive models of human behaviour based on social and religious etc understanding of the human condition. So the learning experience means a hell lot of mapping and creation of new tools.
Curiosity is our greatest aid: and it seeks both inwardly and outwardly.
But it is not surrender to victimhood neither is it any sort of victory although it leads to a deeper achievement of self and capacity to act.
North you are so right. I don't feel like a victim even though I may qualify as one. I think a lot lately about Jesus and the burning bush-that is a weird reference I know but mine nonetheless -and how he said he could call A thousand angels. There is something about Jesus I always liked when I was little. The way he was always tearing up temples and just not having it. That's how I feel now.
DeleteYeah, that's a powerful feeling. OldAndWise encouraged me to be angry and when it came it changed me.
Delete:)
Adjusting your compass is a bitch. But you are more electric than before.
Deletethat's true
Deletemore electric
DeleteM.E.-
ReplyDeleteI loved your last post, from "beginning to end". I wish I had more time, to have commented on it.
I love this post, too.
You have been good to me-thank you.:)
~Vegas
Once I've been caught cheating and they said "gezz have you got no conscience?" I was like: could you repeat that?
ReplyDeleteSo the conscience is a moral compass?
ABC it is a moral compass but one can't have a true independently working compass without a conscience. Your conscience is like the invisible poles that makes the compass spin.
Deleteclever
DeleteTest
ReplyDeleteI am the one and only true UKan. No other UKan Gods you shall worship on this site or else I must administer the consequences to all of SW. Let me offer you a word of advise. If you are wise and not foolish - you'd read up and become familiar about my particular style and type. We are not the same, but we have a particular theme that can look the same. We use this ability it for good or not for good. Look for it and I will bestow upon you my respect. Not to bash me, not to allow yourself to gain supply over me but to understand how my mind works and my level of understanding will always be three steps ahead of you. I can get you hooked in one interaction with me. I won't stop until you bore me and someone else comes along. Sometimes it's easy - sometimes it's not. I will build you up. I will charm you. I will make you believe you are the one who changes me. But your a means to an end for me. I use you for my own benefit. You will only win if I let you. I am cocky. I am dominant. People love me. People wonder about me.
ReplyDeleteI am you're UKan God. Any other types shall be destroyed.
I am ....that .... that I am -- UKan. Worship me.
Haha, Lmfao. It's just Superchick , i just had too blurt that. I'm only joking around here.....
I fell down on my hip carrying a huge tray of fudge two days ago. In emerg, totally bored. Don't want to be here but husband is making me because my high level tolerance of pain lets me do crazy things. He thinks there might be something wrong. It clicked and just fucked up to walk on.
Good Sunday all. :-)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2298558/Why-didnt-I-realise-perfect-man-sociopath-Charming-Handsome-So-attentive-But-Mel-married-sinister-truth-emerged-.html
There's nothing worse than a false UKan.
DeleteHenceforth I have assigned my servants to spread the UKan gospel to all the inner parts and inner groins of SW. The good news shall fall on the ears that are not deaf. You shall see it and conquer above it. To those that are deaf-- you shall fall prey.
DeleteO fuck , haha, I'm so hungry!
Get better soon, Superchick : )
DeleteThanks, I just have hip flexor tears doc said. Radiologist will have to read it thou probably tomorrow. They exrayed it , doc just looked at it. Gave me a prescription for physio ( they said it could take up to two weeks to heal) but honestly I don't think I'll do that. I have infared heat on it now and elevating my leg. I'll ice if need be. I fell down some stairs carrying a tray of fudge. I landed all crooked on my right hip. And took a good blow to it.
DeleteAh no, not stairs! Stairs with a tray..nightmare! Take it easy. I enjoyed your ukan :)
Deleteps Ice is awesome!
DeleteWorks well :)
DeleteHope you feel better soon Superchick. Don't over do it. Listen to the doctors. Know you hate it but you are valued here so do it for us and your mate :)
Deletedoctors eh
Deleteyes get well
Deletenice
DeleteInteresting study. Thoughts anyone?
ReplyDelete"The sense of touch is important for mediating our interactions with the environment, and for how we navigate the world around us," said one of the team, Luren Orefice. "An abnormal sense of touch is only one aspect of ASD, and while we don't claim this explains all the pathologies seen in people, defects in touch processing may help to explain some of the behaviours observed in patients with ASD."
It’s important to point out that the study was only done with mice. While these results are promising, they need to be replicated in humans for them to have relevance for future treatments.
But it's an intriguing insight into what could be going on in a disease that we still don't really understand, and which affects roughly 3.5 million Americans.
The study has been published in the journal Cell.
http://www.sciencealert.com/autism-isn-t-just-a-brain-disease-new-study-finds
Mr. Hyde
The neural system extends throughout our bodies; the brain is part of this network.
DeleteDifferent wiring = different data = different perception.
DeleteIn addition, if the brain is wired differently, then the nervous system could also be wired differently, so as to ensure the neural connections are "compatible".
The heart is just as important an organ in producing oxytocin as the brain. Buddhist believe that sociopaths are cut off from their heart chakra as well as their third eye.
DeleteInteresting. What do the heart chakra and third eye do?
DeleteThought provoking a always Mr. Hyde. I wonder if this has any effect for socios. I have a very high pain tolerance as most socios do and it does effect my behaviors. I have never developed certain "healthy" fears of injuries like NTs. This might bleed over into the lack of fear I have in social interactions too. My sense of touch is much lower than most peoples. Often times people have to point out to me I have injured myself as I don't notice. Question to the others is this true of you also?
Deleteanswer then
Deletewill someone answer this
DeleteMy pain tolerance varies. Touch is extremely good and bad. Overwhelming. Detachment is useful in either situation.
DeleteToo much emotion swamps common sense.
Mr. Hyde
thanks hyde
Deletesomeone else now
Deletethat's right btw
DeleteWhy's pain?
Deletenot you
Deletewhat's the matter with you
DeleteI'm a twat
Deleteno fear. caution yes. don't notice when injured.
DeleteLol, why are you talking to yourself? Careful, you're losing it!
DeleteI just read the article yesterday that the heart produces more oxytocin than the brain. I thought that was very interesting. I had no idea. The heart Chakra working with the lower sexual chakra brings about deeper spiritual bonding. The third eye is spiritual intuition.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I need to grow those areas too.
Deletemine too
DeleteNorth and B&C,
DeleteHere's a link to a chakra chart, which lists basic info you might find useful. I haven't taken the site's chakra test, as it appears simplistic. The chart lists the seven chakras.
Kundalini is the life-serpent energy coiled at the base of the spine, the root chakra, which leads to the crown chakra, enlightenment.
I did have an experience during a yoga class that felt extraordinary: my abdomen got extremely and in that moment I felt tremendous compassion for a woman I loathed, who was writhing on the floor next me, which she did every week while releasing her 'existential tension.'
I believe the chakras are real. Thanks for reminding me . . . I need to resume my practice.
Mr. Hyde
Should read, "My abdomen got extremely hot . . ."
DeleteMr. Hyde
Hi Mr Hyde,
DeleteI can't see any link. Would you mind reposting?
no link hyde
Deleteno link no chakras
DeleteSorry 'bout that folks. I was multi-tasking . . . lol.
Deletehttp://www.energy-healing-info.com/detailed-chakra-chart.html
Mr. Hyde
thanks hyde
Deletechakras
DeleteWhy chakras?
DeleteFuck I'm such a twat
DeleteYes, you are a twat.
DeleteI know all my energy has been very blocked!
ReplyDeletemine too
DeleteI'm a twat
DeleteYes, I agree. You are a twat.
Delete